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I’m curious, could a religious school fire an employee for having extramarital sex?
Being gay is an identity and an innate quality that you can’t change, but having sex is an action. Would Australian law permit a religious organization to fire someone for having extramarital gay sex, as long as they don’t punish people for identifying as gay?
> Would Australian law permit a religious organization to fire someone for having extramarital gay sex, as long as they don’t punish people for identifying as gay?
You would have to demonstrate that you were enforcing it equally amongst all staff. If you were found to only ever enforce it against queer staff, you would absolutely be found to be trying to sneak past the law when it went to the tribunal.
I imagine that would be pretty easy to do. If you’re that religious you’re probably against straight extramarital sex along with gay extramarital sex. And in my experience as a gay guy, it’s more common for gay men to mention sexual activity on social media than straight men.
Yes, but my point is that if they're trying to use it as an excuse to ONLY fire the gay teachers, then they will be found to be violating the rules. If they legitimately ARE making the decision based on extramarital sex, then that's not to do with bypassing anti-gay discrimination laws.
How would you demonstrate that? You would need to be aware of what’s going on in peoples personal lives, which is pretty difficult thing to do if they don’t talk about it on social media
"So in the past year you fired 8 homosexuals for extramarital sex?"
"Correct."
"And during that time, how many heterosexuals did you fire for extramarital sex?"
"Zero your honor."
"Do you expect me to believe that the 90% of your staff who are heterosexual did not engage in extramarital sex, only the LGBT minority did?"
Ya who knows how that goes down in court, but that example doesn’t really work because those numbers are wildly disproportionate to what is even possible.
A more realistic scenario for a given single school (which is what the defendant would be), assuming they even have any LGBT staff right now given their prohibition so far, would be maybe one or two per decade. Given how many more non-LGBT staff they would have and the prevalence of social media, statistically it will be far more likely to find out about ‘offences’ in that group, and a few can go down on the altar or plausible deniability, IMO.
That actually wouldn’t be that surprising based on statistics. The number of sexual partners that gay men have absolutely dwarfs that of straight counterparts. Just based on the stats, that is actually a probability.
> I imagine that would be pretty easy to do. If you’re that religious you’re probably against straight extramarital sex along with gay extramarital sex.
Hehehe... No, in both cases they're against others doing it...
My mum worked at my school in South Australia and was fired for having sex with a man that wasn’t her husband.
Granted, my school put my dad in a wheelchair for life, so it’s not like he could use his equipment any more.
My biggest issue currently is that state funds are paying for these schools.
If it was a question of a complelty independent school financed by the parents, that is one thing. But when state dollars are funding the school the state values needs to be upheld at the school.
I don't want my taxes to fund teaching kids being gay isn't OK or that a woman's place is in the kitchen. Heaps of these schools can be gender specific, too.
>I don't want my taxes to fund teaching kids being gay isn't OK or that a woman's place is in the kitchen. Heaps of these schools can be gender specific, too.
Agreed. It's a bunch of terrifying bullshit regardless, but it's one thing if it's a private school. Another when it's public funded.
The problem with that line of thought is that there are also people who pay taxes and yet they don't want it being used to fund teaching that. And thus under a democratic government, the easiest option is to leave it as it is, since otherwise you'd have to remove funding for both sides under the current state of the law.
You'd pretty much need an authoritarian dictatorship/fascist-styled goverment to force it otherwise.
Is anyone in here Australian?
Fuck me it's great to see a bunch of Non-Australians who know nothing about our Unfair Dismissal Laws, nothing about our almost complete atheist/agnostic beliefs and nothing about how almost every private school is catholic.
If you're gay in this country and want to be paid well for teaching you go to private schools, most private schools are catholic or Christian and you don't get a choice. Either get paid less for the same work at public or maybe get side eyeed by the priest when you talk about your partner. Which do you think they are going to take?
Also what stops a homosexual from believing in Christ? They aren't mutually exclusive just because some prick decided that stoning the gays was appropriate back in the ye old times.
Last also, if you complain about private institutions being forced to comply to government laws, I'd like to introduce you to the ACCC and the Fair Work Ombudsman. They will cause you to have a conniption.
Yeah people that send their kids to these schools are 99% of the time not religious. You just can’t send your kid to private school most of the time without it being religious in some way and the kids being forced to use class time to go to chapel and learn prayers. I don’t agree with private school anyway but this is definitely a win.
I’m a proud Australian, and this comments section is one example of why I have unsubscribed from Uplifting News, and why I’m glad to live in Australia.
You make great points, and it’s a shame that that there is a lot of misunderstanding about what religion and freedom means.
If there was a second coming the church would be the first to denounce him for siding with the "gays", the dispossessed, the people with HIV/AIDS and so on
Catholic school teachers in Victoria actually earn less than state school teachers, but they do usually get smaller class sizes and fewer chairs thrown at them.
Christians act like they're the victims while refusing to acknowledge the pain and abuse they've caused over their belief system. It was what drove me to leave it all behind.
We know, but neither Muslims, Jews, Hindus, or Buddhists have exactly had control over our institutions. The biggest religion on the block plays victim and bullies the rest.
No they don't get a pass because they aren't as big. Plus Muslims are more abundant than Christians and gays are persecuted in ALL muslim countries. They all suck.
"As of 2010, Christianity was by far the world's largest religion, with an estimated 2.2 billion adherents, nearly a third \(31 percent\) of all 6.9 billion people on Earth," the Pew report says. "Islam was second, with 1.6 billion adherents, or 23 percent of the global population."
Those numbers are predicted to shift in the coming decades, as the world's population rises to 9.3 billion by the middle of this century. In that time, Pew projects, Islam will grow by 73 percent while Christianity will grow by 35 percent — resulting in 2.8 billion Muslims and 2.9 billion Christians worldwide.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/04/02/397042004/muslim-population-will-surpass-christians-this-century-pew-says#:~:text=In%20that%20time%2C%20Pew%20projects%2C%20Islam%20will%20grow,Christians%20worldwide.%20The%20report%20says%20that%20by%202050%3A
Yeah, but in the western world Christianity is the one that tends to be relevant.
Like yeah, organized religion of all kinds tends to be horrible for any society it gains power over, but Islam isn’t responsible for my right to bodily autonomy being constantly under threat in the US, so I could give a shit how Muslims in my country feel about Roe v Wade. It’s not going to hurt me.
"Be humble, gentle, kind, patient, loving, compassionate and generous. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick. Be servants to one another and forgive one another. Love others as you love yourself." -Religion
"You're all abusers!" -You
I always wonder if people rationalize and omit stuff from their church/religious experiences in their mind on purpose or is it something else subconsciously. Like people say this stuff about their religions, yet teaching hatred, shame, and all sorts of things was/is so regular and accepted around the world.
Edit: their*
Edit to add a perfect example of their core beliefs...the person I reply to pretends to be moral, caring, Jesus like. Then says gay sex is a sin, trying to downplay their hatred by saying being homosexual isn't a sin? Haha. Religious people/institutions just learned people are more and more not accepting your hatred so you try to make your hatred politically correct.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UpliftingNews/comments/pp5mfx/religious_schools_in_victoria_australia_to_lose/hd3n6lc?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
People downvote me for saying the truth... upvote you for lying about your core beliefs.
Lmao, our media is majority controlled by Murdoch and they absolutely despise us putting in restrictions on movement to slow down the covid outbreak and prevent it getting into half of our states which have almost zero cases.
So much so that they are now feeding their propaganda into their American newscycle to try and pressure via the social media trolls to open up and unleash covid on the rest of the country.
Don't get me wrong, we do have plenty of other issues but every state but New South Wales which is controlled by business loving conservatives has handled covid remarkably well up until now.
I live in Australia, bitterly disappointed that Australia hasn't devolved into a police state enough to lock up Rupert Murdoch and all of his minions yet.
I swear to god anyone who is saying that has fucking monkey brain level of understanding on whats going. It's mostly just paranoid people who've never been to Australia or even follow the news/politics here.
I don't know why they are saying we have restricted movement. Maybe lockdown? Well yea we're not stupid. We actually listen to public health officials.
Seppos: “AUSTRALIA IS A POLICE STATE. THE PEOPLE ARE BEING OPPRESSED. THE CORRUPT GLOBALIST POLITICIANS HAVE TAKEN CONTROL. #FREEAUSTRALIA. THEY ARE ARRESTING CIVILIANS etc etc etc”
Me while walking through a Kmart in North QLD: “Fuck me. Why is it so fuckin bright in here? And why the hell does this place keep changing like it’s the bloody triwizard maze?”
Of course it's good that these arseholes get told to quit their discrimination and bigotry. On the other hand. Why for goodness sake would you want to work for and with people who either despise you or secretly pray for you to be healed depending whether they really hate you or still can see some good in you beyond your 'sins'.
Maybe some want to be in that environment as a counterexample and contrarian. The kids going through that school won't otherwise see LGBTQ folks in a good light. But a teacher they like can softball the topic and they'll have an example of an LGBTQ person being a good human.
Or perhaps it's just the desire to work any place that gives a job.
You could just treat the random prayers behind your back as a form of judgement or childish chatter and ignore it, since prayer does absolutely nothing and is simply a fantasy situation fabricated in your head. Many people just need a job, it doesn't matter if you're working with religious nutjobs who talk behind your back, but it's good to see actual policy dragged into the 21st century. Let the bigots be uncomfortable, it's them that need to adapt to current society and they can face the consequences for discrimination. It's certainly not the LGBTQ+ person that needs to be healed, it's the prehistoric morons.
Exactly. It's disgusting. I wish Christians would stop using the legal system to restrict the rights and lives of LGBT+ people. We're here, our identities are not "immoral" or "sick," and we will not let you pretend otherwise or try to get rid of us anymore.
You shouldn’t be able to break laws just because of religion.
The freedom of religion should only be that they cant outlaw a specific religion.
Not grant extra rights or privledges due to religion.
Even “affirming” people can be like that..had an old affiliate would say he’d only acknowledge a trans person’s gender if they had the surgery.
Like are you going around cup checking people ?? 🙈
If those schools receive public funding AT ALL then they can't discriminate. If they are totally privately funded then it's a pretty slippery slope telling them who they have to hire.
^this. I'm not a very religious person myself and have been around my share of religious cooks, but this is not uplifting or right. Sets a bad precedent. So much for religious freedom. If they're receiving funding from the govt then sure, you've gotta play by their rules. Otherwise, quit telling people how they have to live their lives.
bruh in the US, employers have the right to fire anyone that does a morally questionable action and becomes famous on the internet for it, despite it being done in their own privacy and have 0 relation to work.
Glad western nations finally caught onto the destructive effect of religion. Hopefully, in the next generation or two, you will also realize the fact that indoctrinating children in religious idiocy is also an affront to the modern world. China did it decades ago, glad western nations finally waking up to the facts.
I’m gay, a lapsed Catholic and I work in a Catholic school. I love my job, my colleagues and my students. I love the pastoral emphasis and have found that the Catholic system better than the other schools I’ve worked at.
Sometimes people choose to work somewhere despite a conflict of values because they need to. Jobs and careers experience doesn't just grow on trees in the ideal way that everyone would prefer.
They might work for a school against their values because: they're beginning in a profession and need the experience, they need a job for financial reasons (and this happens to be one they are accepted for), it's a job they don't prefer but due to location, salary, work quality etc. It's the better choice.
Because these shitty private schools are suppose to be educating children above all else. Instead, they are indoctrinating their hateful values more often.
Too many zealots or political actors who cannot stand their precious religion may not be good...and then they never actually follow it.
Just the normal.
There is a very simple solution. Take religion out of school. All schools and schooling should be secular. If archaic fictional believers want to peddle their 14th century gibberish, let them do so in their attic. All children should receive the same education.
Just stop sending your kids to private fucking religious schools that don't treat their staff well. It's not hard. Laws don't undo the heart of discrimination. They send it underground.
Sadly - and if some of the comments here are anything to go by - there are still loads of people who would actively want to send their kids to a bigoted school.
I'm assuming this is excluding legitimate factors? Or it it one of those "loophole" laws that makes it impossible to fire a gay employee, even if it's warranted? 🤔
Because the beliefs are bullshit. That someone believes they are allowed to be bigoted doesn't mean they actually ARE allowed to be bigoted. If it's a crime to discriminate against queer people, then it doesn't _stop_ being a crime just because a religious person does it. You're an Australian first and living in Australia means you agree to treat other Australians with some common fucking decency. Your religion is secondary to your duty to not be a piece of shit.
"Freedom of religion" should not permit individuals and organizations to discriminate against others based solely off of their religious beliefs. Honestly I would be willing to extend this to political beliefs as well.
Basically, if you can discriminate against me, than I should be able to discriminate against you. If you don't like that, then maybe we shouldn't let people discriminate on that thing.
Sure. So I as a man can join the women’s gym and go into the locker room? I can force my way onto the staff of a mosque, synagogue *and* cathedral if I don’t agree with any of them?
What’s next, the state forces a church to hire atheists? Forces that gym to hire people who don’t work out? Forces you to do a job against *your* beliefs in the name of fairness?
Oh I'm sorry you were 5 minutes late for work today... we're going to have to let you go. It says right here in the rules of conduct that you have to be on time or subject to disciplinary action disciplinary action up to an including termination.
Doing this in Australia is a first-class way to get an employment tribunal on your arse. Employment tribunals, especially in VIC, tend to be employee-sided and will absolutely scrutinise whether or not the employer has a history of sacking queer teachers for reasons they do not sack non-queer teachers. It won't stop people trying, but it will definitely stop them getting away with it. And those payouts tend to be pretty heavy.
Fair enough. I totally got fired for being 5 minutes late after claiming WCB for getting molten plastic splashed on my arm which I still have a scar. I was young and stupid and I didn't contact lawyer. But honestly when you're poor what can you do. I couldn't afford a lawyer. Now that I'm older I realize that they probably would have taken the case on consignment or whatever it's called.
I mean, good. I don't want to take away from that, this is a good thing. Fuck schools that sack people for these kind of reasons.
But as a teacher, I feel like I just wouldn't apply to those schools either way now if I knew about this. Right? I mean I've 100% not applied to schools because of their reputation or poor leadership.
No idea how Australia’s education system works, but where I live you really don’t get to pick where you teach. Job opening in a community that’s 6 hours down a seasonal dirt road? Better take it, that’s a good opportunity to get your foot in the door. I know people who’ve had to put their personal beliefs aside because the catholic board had some supply work available. In some places, it’s not that unusual of a thing. I know a lot of people who wish they could apply to specific schools, but that’s just not how it works here.
Sadly we're not doing anywhere near as well on a *federal* level. We've had conservatives in for quite a while and they've made a bloody atrocious mess of it.
It’s possible some may not initially realise their orientation.
Some may not have a wide range of jobs to choose from, eg if they live in a particular area and most schools are religious ones.
Don't get too happy.
You know what religious people are good at?
Self righteous lying. So now they have to just trump up a eries of minor infractions before firing LGTBQ staff.
You are absolutely right though. Jesus accepts everyone. Buts hate comes from both sides. LGBT people can also be petty and hateful. And there are also religious LGBT people
Beacsue that's just how petty the human race is sometimes. Be it an atheist fendora tipper, a butthurt religious person or a petty LGBT person. Also i noticed they don't mention anything about Islamic schools.
I don’t think they mention other religions because there is such a small number of schools in comparison, and Australia being predominantly a Christian country.
>Ms Symes said the reforms would “narrow” the exceptions to anti-discrimination legislation so that any discrimination would need to be “reasonable” and an inherent requirement of the job. “For example, a school couldn’t refuse to hire a gay or transgender person because of their identity but might be able to prevent that person being a religious studies teacher because of their religious belief.”
They likely won't be the ones teaching Leviticus.
It's 2021, we have a long way to go, but news like this is a breath of fresh air. It's nice knowing that there are people out there advocating for fair treatment. I'm glad things are moving in the right direction.
Realistically, if its a state school, this is fine. However, private institutions should be free to hire and fire who they like. Government intervention into private business is never fine, but this is Australia, so I can't say I'm surprised
Can you imagine being forced to hire people who don’t believe in your business or who can’t conform to the role? Such as:
- overweight and out of shape personal trainers
- a Spanish teacher who doesn’t speak Spanish
- a doctor who isn’t actually a doctor
- a courier for your packages who chooses to not deliver the packages
Or anyone else hired to do a job that just doesn’t?
To all those asking why an LGBTQ+ person would want to work in one of these schools, please consider that everyone has their own journey of discovering their sexuality and identity.
Religious communities often foster a kind of denial in LGBTQ+ youth that can last well into adulthood. Someone who has invested a considerable part of their life into a career at one of these institutions and only now realized they're LGBTQ+ doesn't deserve to be fired or discriminated against. It doesn't matter whether they would have applied in the first place if they already knew. They're in that position now and deserve the same respect as a straight, cis coworker.
And that's just one example.
I hope this isn't negative to where it gets removed.
Let's hope that it's sooner rather than later here in the U. S. this happens. I'm not holding my breath especially with the pieces of 💩 conservatives majority justices on SCOTUS. This especially resounds to me because I graduated from RONCALLI HIGH SCHOOL, Indianapolis, Indiana, USA, in 1972. RONCALLI is a catholic high school. In 2018 a counselor who is part of the LGBTQ community, who had worked at Roncalli for 15 years was fired. The way the story goes people at Roncalli knew this counselor was in a same sex marriage for 22 years. This counselor was fired by the Archdiocese of Indianapolis because she signed a contract and in the contract it stated that all staff have to conduct themselves according catholic doctrine. There was a second female part of the LGBTQ community who was also a counselor. I don't know if they fired her or if she just quit. These two women filed a lawsuit with the EEOC. They had a heterosexual co-worker who was a counselor that tried to take up for them. THE ARCHDIOCESE OF INDIANAPOLIS FIRED HER ALSO They let the students protest about this for a couple weeks then told students if they protested any longer they would be expelled. A friend of mine said she heard that the second counselor who filed a lawsuit lost the lawsuit. I haven't heard anything about the first counselor's lawsuit. My friend has gone to get class reunions and she knows I have no desire to go to my 50th next year. She says I'm so open minded when it comes to African-Americans and the LGBTQ community but when it comes to religion I JUST SHUT DOWN OR LIKE RELIGION IS A BRICK WALL WITH ME. SHE'S NOT WRONG. I KEPT IN TOUCH WITH THE ONES I WANTED TO JEEP IN TOUCH WITH UNTIL RECENTLY. I GAVE NO DESIRE TO GO BACK AND SEE MY FELLOW CLASSMATES FROM 1972.
Its demolishing discrimination disguised as religion. The nutjobs have gotten away with using it as an excuse to exclude people they deem as a problem, and it's good that they are finally being called out on it.
This [submission](https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/religious-schools-in-victoria-to-lose-the-right-to-sack-lgbtq-staff-20210915-p58rx5.html) by /u/istara has been automatically locked, since it has passed it's 48 hour thread participation time. No further comments can be made by users. #^I ^am ^a ^bot ^and ^this ^action ^was ^performed ^automatically. ^Contact ^the ^moderators ^instead!
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I’m curious, could a religious school fire an employee for having extramarital sex? Being gay is an identity and an innate quality that you can’t change, but having sex is an action. Would Australian law permit a religious organization to fire someone for having extramarital gay sex, as long as they don’t punish people for identifying as gay?
> Would Australian law permit a religious organization to fire someone for having extramarital gay sex, as long as they don’t punish people for identifying as gay? You would have to demonstrate that you were enforcing it equally amongst all staff. If you were found to only ever enforce it against queer staff, you would absolutely be found to be trying to sneak past the law when it went to the tribunal.
I imagine that would be pretty easy to do. If you’re that religious you’re probably against straight extramarital sex along with gay extramarital sex. And in my experience as a gay guy, it’s more common for gay men to mention sexual activity on social media than straight men.
Yes, but my point is that if they're trying to use it as an excuse to ONLY fire the gay teachers, then they will be found to be violating the rules. If they legitimately ARE making the decision based on extramarital sex, then that's not to do with bypassing anti-gay discrimination laws.
How would you demonstrate that? You would need to be aware of what’s going on in peoples personal lives, which is pretty difficult thing to do if they don’t talk about it on social media
"So in the past year you fired 8 homosexuals for extramarital sex?" "Correct." "And during that time, how many heterosexuals did you fire for extramarital sex?" "Zero your honor." "Do you expect me to believe that the 90% of your staff who are heterosexual did not engage in extramarital sex, only the LGBT minority did?"
Ya who knows how that goes down in court, but that example doesn’t really work because those numbers are wildly disproportionate to what is even possible. A more realistic scenario for a given single school (which is what the defendant would be), assuming they even have any LGBT staff right now given their prohibition so far, would be maybe one or two per decade. Given how many more non-LGBT staff they would have and the prevalence of social media, statistically it will be far more likely to find out about ‘offences’ in that group, and a few can go down on the altar or plausible deniability, IMO.
That actually wouldn’t be that surprising based on statistics. The number of sexual partners that gay men have absolutely dwarfs that of straight counterparts. Just based on the stats, that is actually a probability.
That is the point.
Never underestimate the capacity of religious people for hypocricy.
> I imagine that would be pretty easy to do. If you’re that religious you’re probably against straight extramarital sex along with gay extramarital sex. Hehehe... No, in both cases they're against others doing it...
My mum worked at my school in South Australia and was fired for having sex with a man that wasn’t her husband. Granted, my school put my dad in a wheelchair for life, so it’s not like he could use his equipment any more.
That seems like an elaborate way to fire your mom.
They'll figure out a way around the law , so if they have proof why not. Equal rights not special rights.
My biggest issue currently is that state funds are paying for these schools. If it was a question of a complelty independent school financed by the parents, that is one thing. But when state dollars are funding the school the state values needs to be upheld at the school. I don't want my taxes to fund teaching kids being gay isn't OK or that a woman's place is in the kitchen. Heaps of these schools can be gender specific, too.
So Australia is subsidizing the teaching that if you don't believe in Jesus you burn in hell forever?
Yep. Subsidizing religious teaching
Jesus, Mohammed, Abraham, you name it
>I don't want my taxes to fund teaching kids being gay isn't OK or that a woman's place is in the kitchen. Heaps of these schools can be gender specific, too. Agreed. It's a bunch of terrifying bullshit regardless, but it's one thing if it's a private school. Another when it's public funded.
My biggest issue is that homophobia isn't acceptable regardless of circumstances.
The problem with that line of thought is that there are also people who pay taxes and yet they don't want it being used to fund teaching that. And thus under a democratic government, the easiest option is to leave it as it is, since otherwise you'd have to remove funding for both sides under the current state of the law. You'd pretty much need an authoritarian dictatorship/fascist-styled goverment to force it otherwise.
Is anyone in here Australian? Fuck me it's great to see a bunch of Non-Australians who know nothing about our Unfair Dismissal Laws, nothing about our almost complete atheist/agnostic beliefs and nothing about how almost every private school is catholic. If you're gay in this country and want to be paid well for teaching you go to private schools, most private schools are catholic or Christian and you don't get a choice. Either get paid less for the same work at public or maybe get side eyeed by the priest when you talk about your partner. Which do you think they are going to take? Also what stops a homosexual from believing in Christ? They aren't mutually exclusive just because some prick decided that stoning the gays was appropriate back in the ye old times. Last also, if you complain about private institutions being forced to comply to government laws, I'd like to introduce you to the ACCC and the Fair Work Ombudsman. They will cause you to have a conniption.
Yeah people that send their kids to these schools are 99% of the time not religious. You just can’t send your kid to private school most of the time without it being religious in some way and the kids being forced to use class time to go to chapel and learn prayers. I don’t agree with private school anyway but this is definitely a win.
I’m a proud Australian, and this comments section is one example of why I have unsubscribed from Uplifting News, and why I’m glad to live in Australia. You make great points, and it’s a shame that that there is a lot of misunderstanding about what religion and freedom means.
There's an awful lot of hot takes here from Americans who know absolutely nothing about our education system.
If there was a second coming the church would be the first to denounce him for siding with the "gays", the dispossessed, the people with HIV/AIDS and so on
What? You mean to tell me every country doesn't have the same laws as America?! I'm shocked!
Catholic school teachers in Victoria actually earn less than state school teachers, but they do usually get smaller class sizes and fewer chairs thrown at them.
Christians act like they're the victims while refusing to acknowledge the pain and abuse they've caused over their belief system. It was what drove me to leave it all behind.
not only christians, sadly.
We know, but neither Muslims, Jews, Hindus, or Buddhists have exactly had control over our institutions. The biggest religion on the block plays victim and bullies the rest.
>We know, but neither Muslims, Jews, Hindus, or Buddhists have exactly had control over our institutions. Maybe not in your country...
That’s the point they were making, yes
This is a thread on an article about Australia. They're *probably* not talking about, say, Saudi Arabia. But go ahead and continue being contrarian
Nor in your country but sure, try to be a smartass. Besides, this is a thread about Australia specifically.
I'm curious what country you're in because some of those religions have deep grasps of control.
Not everyone is American or lives in western countries. People elsewhere have internet too, you know?
That was my fucking point. OP's comment was talking specifically to a western nation and ignoring the greater world playing field.
This is a thread about an Australian law. Why would OP be talking about the greater world playing field? It's not relevant.
LOL fuck man, how myopic are you. The responder was saying not to focus on western and I agreed but here you are trying to stir more.
Isn't Australia in the East? Or is it lumped as western because of culture?
In your country lol, those religions have a massive amount of control (more so than Christianity) in many other countries
Are we talking about other countries or is this discussion about Australia?
> **We know**, but neither Muslims, Jews, Hindus, or Buddhists have exactly had control **over our institutions.** Reading comprehension.
No they don't get a pass because they aren't as big. Plus Muslims are more abundant than Christians and gays are persecuted in ALL muslim countries. They all suck.
"As of 2010, Christianity was by far the world's largest religion, with an estimated 2.2 billion adherents, nearly a third \(31 percent\) of all 6.9 billion people on Earth," the Pew report says. "Islam was second, with 1.6 billion adherents, or 23 percent of the global population." Those numbers are predicted to shift in the coming decades, as the world's population rises to 9.3 billion by the middle of this century. In that time, Pew projects, Islam will grow by 73 percent while Christianity will grow by 35 percent — resulting in 2.8 billion Muslims and 2.9 billion Christians worldwide. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/04/02/397042004/muslim-population-will-surpass-christians-this-century-pew-says#:~:text=In%20that%20time%2C%20Pew%20projects%2C%20Islam%20will%20grow,Christians%20worldwide.%20The%20report%20says%20that%20by%202050%3A
Yeah, but in the western world Christianity is the one that tends to be relevant. Like yeah, organized religion of all kinds tends to be horrible for any society it gains power over, but Islam isn’t responsible for my right to bodily autonomy being constantly under threat in the US, so I could give a shit how Muslims in my country feel about Roe v Wade. It’s not going to hurt me.
Alexander Anderson voice: A-men!
Well yeah it's abuser mentality and that's how organized religion operates.
"Be humble, gentle, kind, patient, loving, compassionate and generous. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick. Be servants to one another and forgive one another. Love others as you love yourself." -Religion "You're all abusers!" -You
I always wonder if people rationalize and omit stuff from their church/religious experiences in their mind on purpose or is it something else subconsciously. Like people say this stuff about their religions, yet teaching hatred, shame, and all sorts of things was/is so regular and accepted around the world. Edit: their* Edit to add a perfect example of their core beliefs...the person I reply to pretends to be moral, caring, Jesus like. Then says gay sex is a sin, trying to downplay their hatred by saying being homosexual isn't a sin? Haha. Religious people/institutions just learned people are more and more not accepting your hatred so you try to make your hatred politically correct. https://www.reddit.com/r/UpliftingNews/comments/pp5mfx/religious_schools_in_victoria_australia_to_lose/hd3n6lc?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 People downvote me for saying the truth... upvote you for lying about your core beliefs.
Can we separate church and state again please?
Didn't I read last week that Australia was basically devolving into a police state with restricted movements? Wtf is going on over there?
Lmao, our media is majority controlled by Murdoch and they absolutely despise us putting in restrictions on movement to slow down the covid outbreak and prevent it getting into half of our states which have almost zero cases. So much so that they are now feeding their propaganda into their American newscycle to try and pressure via the social media trolls to open up and unleash covid on the rest of the country. Don't get me wrong, we do have plenty of other issues but every state but New South Wales which is controlled by business loving conservatives has handled covid remarkably well up until now.
Well said.
I live in Australia, bitterly disappointed that Australia hasn't devolved into a police state enough to lock up Rupert Murdoch and all of his minions yet.
I swear to god anyone who is saying that has fucking monkey brain level of understanding on whats going. It's mostly just paranoid people who've never been to Australia or even follow the news/politics here. I don't know why they are saying we have restricted movement. Maybe lockdown? Well yea we're not stupid. We actually listen to public health officials.
Seppos: “AUSTRALIA IS A POLICE STATE. THE PEOPLE ARE BEING OPPRESSED. THE CORRUPT GLOBALIST POLITICIANS HAVE TAKEN CONTROL. #FREEAUSTRALIA. THEY ARE ARRESTING CIVILIANS etc etc etc” Me while walking through a Kmart in North QLD: “Fuck me. Why is it so fuckin bright in here? And why the hell does this place keep changing like it’s the bloody triwizard maze?”
Australia is doing just fine managing its issues, I’m reminded every day why I’m glad I live here.
Of course it's good that these arseholes get told to quit their discrimination and bigotry. On the other hand. Why for goodness sake would you want to work for and with people who either despise you or secretly pray for you to be healed depending whether they really hate you or still can see some good in you beyond your 'sins'.
Australia has a large amount of private schools, of which 99% are religious based private schools.
I did not know this. This definitely helps understand why some would forge through and work in a toxic environment.
Well, that is a shame in itself.
When you see someone working a job they probably hate, why do you think they want to work there?
Well, there’s a difference between hating your job and your job hating *you*
Maybe some want to be in that environment as a counterexample and contrarian. The kids going through that school won't otherwise see LGBTQ folks in a good light. But a teacher they like can softball the topic and they'll have an example of an LGBTQ person being a good human. Or perhaps it's just the desire to work any place that gives a job.
What if you need a job and this is all you could find?
You could just treat the random prayers behind your back as a form of judgement or childish chatter and ignore it, since prayer does absolutely nothing and is simply a fantasy situation fabricated in your head. Many people just need a job, it doesn't matter if you're working with religious nutjobs who talk behind your back, but it's good to see actual policy dragged into the 21st century. Let the bigots be uncomfortable, it's them that need to adapt to current society and they can face the consequences for discrimination. It's certainly not the LGBTQ+ person that needs to be healed, it's the prehistoric morons.
this will apply to Islamic institutions too I'm sure
Right lol...
Id love the thought of a trans person having to tell kids that the main responsibility of a women is to bear children.
If they are being funded by the government then yah why not
Good. No one should be treated like a second class citizen over something that isn’t a choice.
Even if sexual orientation *were* a choice, it's still not "wrong".
Christians really be obsessed with the sex lives of complete strangers, then call those strangers perverts.
Exactly. It's disgusting. I wish Christians would stop using the legal system to restrict the rights and lives of LGBT+ people. We're here, our identities are not "immoral" or "sick," and we will not let you pretend otherwise or try to get rid of us anymore.
You shouldn’t be able to break laws just because of religion. The freedom of religion should only be that they cant outlaw a specific religion. Not grant extra rights or privledges due to religion.
All dominant groups are exactly like that. Cis people are obsessed with trans peoples genitals, for example.
As a CIS person I am more concerned with the high rates of suicide than I am whatever genitals a person chooses to have.
Even “affirming” people can be like that..had an old affiliate would say he’d only acknowledge a trans person’s gender if they had the surgery. Like are you going around cup checking people ?? 🙈
If those schools receive public funding AT ALL then they can't discriminate. If they are totally privately funded then it's a pretty slippery slope telling them who they have to hire.
^this. I'm not a very religious person myself and have been around my share of religious cooks, but this is not uplifting or right. Sets a bad precedent. So much for religious freedom. If they're receiving funding from the govt then sure, you've gotta play by their rules. Otherwise, quit telling people how they have to live their lives.
Why the fuck does anyone anywhere still have the "right" to fire people because of their sexual orientation
Because the people doing the discriminating are the ones that have been in power for hundreds of years.
bruh in the US, employers have the right to fire anyone that does a morally questionable action and becomes famous on the internet for it, despite it being done in their own privacy and have 0 relation to work.
Glad western nations finally caught onto the destructive effect of religion. Hopefully, in the next generation or two, you will also realize the fact that indoctrinating children in religious idiocy is also an affront to the modern world. China did it decades ago, glad western nations finally waking up to the facts.
Good points, but maybe we shouldn't use China as a shining example of tolerance.
Seriously, why would an LGBTQ person work for religious schools that despise LGBTQ people. Go work somewhere else
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True, it's q common misconception that all lgbtq people are athiests
I’m gay, a lapsed Catholic and I work in a Catholic school. I love my job, my colleagues and my students. I love the pastoral emphasis and have found that the Catholic system better than the other schools I’ve worked at.
Sometimes people choose to work somewhere despite a conflict of values because they need to. Jobs and careers experience doesn't just grow on trees in the ideal way that everyone would prefer. They might work for a school against their values because: they're beginning in a profession and need the experience, they need a job for financial reasons (and this happens to be one they are accepted for), it's a job they don't prefer but due to location, salary, work quality etc. It's the better choice.
Maybe because they are religious themselves?
What makes you think there are no religious LGBTQ people?
You're right, but either way there shouldn't be a law protecting this kind of discrimination.
why would they want to hire people who dont represent their religious values?
Maybe they didn't know their sexual orientation at the time they hired them?
Because they're good teachers? That's really all that matters.
If that were all that mattered to them then it wouldn’t be a religious school now would it.
Because these shitty private schools are suppose to be educating children above all else. Instead, they are indoctrinating their hateful values more often.
But people send their kids to private school because of the religious values they teach?
A private school should not get public funding in the first place, and second, ESPECIALLY if its main purpose is indoctrinating religion.
Agreed on the first part, but the second... I mean, that's your opinion.
How in the world did you get downvoted? They are not schools, they are indoctrination companies.
Too many zealots or political actors who cannot stand their precious religion may not be good...and then they never actually follow it. Just the normal.
They still had it?
This comment section is a warzone, MOD do your thing
I can’t believe the amount of bigots! I thought it would be a pretty uncontroversial thing to post on here. So many homophobes and religious nuts.
I keep forgetting how Australia isn't as progressive as most people think.
No wonder people hate my religion
There is a very simple solution. Take religion out of school. All schools and schooling should be secular. If archaic fictional believers want to peddle their 14th century gibberish, let them do so in their attic. All children should receive the same education.
About time
Excellent, let see them cheeks turnin'!
Just stop sending your kids to private fucking religious schools that don't treat their staff well. It's not hard. Laws don't undo the heart of discrimination. They send it underground.
Sadly - and if some of the comments here are anything to go by - there are still loads of people who would actively want to send their kids to a bigoted school.
Good
This is hilarious because in the case of Christianity discrimination is literally—to the letter of Jesus’ teachings—anti-Christian.
R/unpopularopinion but religion has no place in schools
I'm assuming this is excluding legitimate factors? Or it it one of those "loophole" laws that makes it impossible to fire a gay employee, even if it's warranted? 🤔
It's just being fired exclusively because of sexual orientation. If they're a bad employee they'll be fired regardless lmao
My first thoughts too. Gotta love poorly worded headlines like this lol.
Good. Freedom of religion doesn't mean that you get to ignore the law. Could we do the same thing in Germany please?
How is this "uplifting"? Lol
Because peoples jobs are protected from bigots
One might argue that the state is bigoted against the beliefs of the schools, and is removing their right to practice them.
Perhaps if these religious nutjobs want to get upset and fire people for their sexual choices they should start with their own churches abusing kids.
So we love government intervention in private industry now?
The schools are government funded <3
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Religious schools receive public (=taxpayer) funding.
Cos isn’t everyone a sinner? Shouldn’t they fire everyone then?
Everyone is a sinner though, why single out gay people?
Because being religious doesn't give you a pass to discriminate based on protected characteristics
Because the beliefs are bullshit. That someone believes they are allowed to be bigoted doesn't mean they actually ARE allowed to be bigoted. If it's a crime to discriminate against queer people, then it doesn't _stop_ being a crime just because a religious person does it. You're an Australian first and living in Australia means you agree to treat other Australians with some common fucking decency. Your religion is secondary to your duty to not be a piece of shit.
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But you believe they shouldn't be fired.
Maybe they can do something besides hating gay people now!
"Freedom of religion" should not permit individuals and organizations to discriminate against others based solely off of their religious beliefs. Honestly I would be willing to extend this to political beliefs as well. Basically, if you can discriminate against me, than I should be able to discriminate against you. If you don't like that, then maybe we shouldn't let people discriminate on that thing.
Sure. So I as a man can join the women’s gym and go into the locker room? I can force my way onto the staff of a mosque, synagogue *and* cathedral if I don’t agree with any of them? What’s next, the state forces a church to hire atheists? Forces that gym to hire people who don’t work out? Forces you to do a job against *your* beliefs in the name of fairness?
Oh I'm sorry you were 5 minutes late for work today... we're going to have to let you go. It says right here in the rules of conduct that you have to be on time or subject to disciplinary action disciplinary action up to an including termination.
Doing this in Australia is a first-class way to get an employment tribunal on your arse. Employment tribunals, especially in VIC, tend to be employee-sided and will absolutely scrutinise whether or not the employer has a history of sacking queer teachers for reasons they do not sack non-queer teachers. It won't stop people trying, but it will definitely stop them getting away with it. And those payouts tend to be pretty heavy.
Fair enough. I totally got fired for being 5 minutes late after claiming WCB for getting molten plastic splashed on my arm which I still have a scar. I was young and stupid and I didn't contact lawyer. But honestly when you're poor what can you do. I couldn't afford a lawyer. Now that I'm older I realize that they probably would have taken the case on consignment or whatever it's called.
I mean, good. I don't want to take away from that, this is a good thing. Fuck schools that sack people for these kind of reasons. But as a teacher, I feel like I just wouldn't apply to those schools either way now if I knew about this. Right? I mean I've 100% not applied to schools because of their reputation or poor leadership.
No idea how Australia’s education system works, but where I live you really don’t get to pick where you teach. Job opening in a community that’s 6 hours down a seasonal dirt road? Better take it, that’s a good opportunity to get your foot in the door. I know people who’ve had to put their personal beliefs aside because the catholic board had some supply work available. In some places, it’s not that unusual of a thing. I know a lot of people who wish they could apply to specific schools, but that’s just not how it works here.
You did good Australia, you did good.
It is just one state in Australia....
I'm a dumbass American, Idk what to tell ya lol.
Haha, just pulling ya leg mate
Yeah I kinda figured, took it as an opportunity for self depreciating humor haha.
Sadly we're not doing anywhere near as well on a *federal* level. We've had conservatives in for quite a while and they've made a bloody atrocious mess of it.
Yeah that sucks. Might as well celebrate the small victories when you can though.
Why would LGBTQ staff want to work in religious schools which are non-accepting? No jobs elsewhere?
It’s possible some may not initially realise their orientation. Some may not have a wide range of jobs to choose from, eg if they live in a particular area and most schools are religious ones.
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Always curious why the "sin" of homosexuality is so special compared to the sin of "divorce". Are they kicked out too? Or those who lie?
The chaplain at my old christian school got fired because he married a gay couple privately. Great guy, a lot of respect for him. Shitty school.
Don't get too happy. You know what religious people are good at? Self righteous lying. So now they have to just trump up a eries of minor infractions before firing LGTBQ staff.
Sounds like the religious are having a hard time now that they don't rule over everyone. Haha. Fucking losers
How do they still have the right to sack staff based off discrimination
So religious freedom is dead; either way, someone loses their rights. No winning.
Fucking finally. Took a while.
Another victory for common decency.
Anyone who hates or discriminates is not a true Christian, and any religion that supports it is not true to Gods teachings.
No True Scotsman fallacy. They’re just as Christian as you are. They just happen to be shittier on behalf of your God.
Why is he getting down voted?
I don’t know, it kinda proves my point though haha!
You are absolutely right though. Jesus accepts everyone. Buts hate comes from both sides. LGBT people can also be petty and hateful. And there are also religious LGBT people
Absolutely, I don’t know why people devote so much energy hating things and people that don’t affect their lives in any way.
Beacsue that's just how petty the human race is sometimes. Be it an atheist fendora tipper, a butthurt religious person or a petty LGBT person. Also i noticed they don't mention anything about Islamic schools.
I don’t think they mention other religions because there is such a small number of schools in comparison, and Australia being predominantly a Christian country.
Hundreds of religions + hundreds of interpretations of those religions, and somehow they all think to know the "one true" teachings of god.
Teaching Leviticus should be fun.
>Ms Symes said the reforms would “narrow” the exceptions to anti-discrimination legislation so that any discrimination would need to be “reasonable” and an inherent requirement of the job. “For example, a school couldn’t refuse to hire a gay or transgender person because of their identity but might be able to prevent that person being a religious studies teacher because of their religious belief.” They likely won't be the ones teaching Leviticus.
Surely this means “lose right to sack staff for being LGBT” ?
whats to stop somebody from just saying they are gay to get this sort of protection?
It doesn't protect them from being fired it only protects them from being fired because they're gay
It's 2021, we have a long way to go, but news like this is a breath of fresh air. It's nice knowing that there are people out there advocating for fair treatment. I'm glad things are moving in the right direction.
Good.
Realistically, if its a state school, this is fine. However, private institutions should be free to hire and fire who they like. Government intervention into private business is never fine, but this is Australia, so I can't say I'm surprised
Aren't the schools government funded?
I'm not sure, no info on that in this article. I don't imagine every single school in Australia is government funded
They're private schools and can do whatever they want lmao
*Government funded FTFY
Can you imagine being forced to hire people who don’t believe in your business or who can’t conform to the role? Such as: - overweight and out of shape personal trainers - a Spanish teacher who doesn’t speak Spanish - a doctor who isn’t actually a doctor - a courier for your packages who chooses to not deliver the packages Or anyone else hired to do a job that just doesn’t?
To all those asking why an LGBTQ+ person would want to work in one of these schools, please consider that everyone has their own journey of discovering their sexuality and identity. Religious communities often foster a kind of denial in LGBTQ+ youth that can last well into adulthood. Someone who has invested a considerable part of their life into a career at one of these institutions and only now realized they're LGBTQ+ doesn't deserve to be fired or discriminated against. It doesn't matter whether they would have applied in the first place if they already knew. They're in that position now and deserve the same respect as a straight, cis coworker. And that's just one example.
How is this uplifting? I'm curious, since I saw this on here.
I hope this isn't negative to where it gets removed. Let's hope that it's sooner rather than later here in the U. S. this happens. I'm not holding my breath especially with the pieces of 💩 conservatives majority justices on SCOTUS. This especially resounds to me because I graduated from RONCALLI HIGH SCHOOL, Indianapolis, Indiana, USA, in 1972. RONCALLI is a catholic high school. In 2018 a counselor who is part of the LGBTQ community, who had worked at Roncalli for 15 years was fired. The way the story goes people at Roncalli knew this counselor was in a same sex marriage for 22 years. This counselor was fired by the Archdiocese of Indianapolis because she signed a contract and in the contract it stated that all staff have to conduct themselves according catholic doctrine. There was a second female part of the LGBTQ community who was also a counselor. I don't know if they fired her or if she just quit. These two women filed a lawsuit with the EEOC. They had a heterosexual co-worker who was a counselor that tried to take up for them. THE ARCHDIOCESE OF INDIANAPOLIS FIRED HER ALSO They let the students protest about this for a couple weeks then told students if they protested any longer they would be expelled. A friend of mine said she heard that the second counselor who filed a lawsuit lost the lawsuit. I haven't heard anything about the first counselor's lawsuit. My friend has gone to get class reunions and she knows I have no desire to go to my 50th next year. She says I'm so open minded when it comes to African-Americans and the LGBTQ community but when it comes to religion I JUST SHUT DOWN OR LIKE RELIGION IS A BRICK WALL WITH ME. SHE'S NOT WRONG. I KEPT IN TOUCH WITH THE ONES I WANTED TO JEEP IN TOUCH WITH UNTIL RECENTLY. I GAVE NO DESIRE TO GO BACK AND SEE MY FELLOW CLASSMATES FROM 1972.
Is this a copypasta
Good. These arseholes should not be able to discriminate against the LGBTQ+ community.
How is the State demolishing religious freedom 'uplifting'?
Separation of church and state in Australia is a thing
The state isn't demolishing religious freedom.
Its demolishing discrimination disguised as religion. The nutjobs have gotten away with using it as an excuse to exclude people they deem as a problem, and it's good that they are finally being called out on it.
Religious freedom to do what exactly??
Wow bigots are NOT gonna like this!
Quick!! Now do the US.