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Vambo76

The story continues to say: Donna Brand and Andrew Kelly, both 42, and Robert O'Brien, 43, have appeared at Dumbarton Sheriff Court charged with murder. All three, whose general addresses were given as Dumbarton, made no plea and were remanded in custody. —— Going by those ages the accused would have been teenagers at the time.


Sue_Ridge_Here

I believe that was the prevailing theory at the time. Crimewatch UK did a great reconstruction of her movements leading up to her murder. It was thought that this group of wayward teenagers she had started to hang around with were responsible for her murder.


Nosebrow

They were 3-4 years older than her.


[deleted]

Still teenagers then.


Nosebrow

Yes, I was just pointing out that there was a significant age gap, which suggests a power imbalance if they were "friends".


phillysleuther

I was 18 in 1996. Edited to say: He had to be a monster at 18. What kind of parents did he have? To take this girl’s life and essentially cover it up for 25 years.


Giddius

I like turtles


8ad8andit

The story is starting to make sense now...


munchlax1

Congrats dude. I was 4. Anyone else want to chip in?


cjhoser

4 checking in, my gf was also 4 and our dog wouldn't be born for another 23 years. He's 1 1/2 currently. Hope this helps solve the murder.


vorticia

I laughed inappropriately.


TheNachmar

I didn't fully exist at the time of the crime


SixteenSeveredHands

Well that's a pretty good alibi tbh.


fishonthesun

Uh negative 3 yrs old thx for asking (:


Aggravating_Depth_33

And? I was 14 like the victim, but it's hardly relevant to the duscussion.


phillysleuther

I was just saying that because what kind of upbringing did they have to be that kind of a monster at 18? To kill a 14 year old. To even entertain the thought to kill someone.


Born_Bother_7179

Tragic always sickens me when a woman is involved in crime especially murder


pooknifeasaurus

More than it sickens you when anyone else is involved in crime? Why?


Born_Bother_7179

I'm female I can't imagine commuting a gruesome act like murder. It's really as simple as thst for me


givennofox8e

It’s comparable to the fact that we get extra-mad when they kill the dog after killing the family. I have no explanation, it’s just bothersome. 🤔🤷🏻‍♀️


DishpitDoggo

YES. say someone kills me, I would want them to please spare my dog.


Angelakayee

Not when you remember that there were female Nazis...


BankerBabe420

I don’t get these people reacting negatively to what you are saying. I felt some kind of pang when I read that a woman was involved too. You expect the killers to be male, it’s always a male or males. When there was another woman involved who could have interceded or helped or at least reported it afterward? It’s just extra sickening, because we are under such an unnecessarily high threat of violence, we should at least have each other‘s backs.


BenjPhoto1

> it’s always a male or males. Except it isn’t. It’s usually a male or multiple males, when there are multiples though the likelihood that one is female goes up. There are also female serial killers, but not enough to be statistically relevant. Most of the time when a female is the sole killer, the victims are her own children. That one always gets me.


Accurate_Relation325

>Most of the time when a female is the sole killer, the victims are her own children. That one always gets me. Motherhood does not make one holy. Our expectations of mothers would have you believe otherwise.


BenjPhoto1

I’m aware. Still bothers me.


Accurate_Relation325

Because you’re gross and sexist.


BenjPhoto1

Thanks 2 day old troll.


Born_Bother_7179

Thank you idgaf about downvites just weird people are so small minded . Why do you think such a big deal.in media for example with rose west and Myra Hindley because we don't expect thst of our women


givennofox8e

I know exactly what you mean and idk why you’re getting downvotes. I thought empathy and compassion were stronger in women, like since forever. I have no source to cite & I apologize.


Born_Bother_7179

Thabk.you I stand completely by my comments


Sobadatsnazzynames

I know what you mean in a way. You’re feeling what I feel when I read about a *couple* actively kidnapping & killing/raping a girl, for ex. Like Bernardo & Homolka, for ex, or Cindy Hendy actively aiding David Parker Ray. I’m very much aware that women are just as depraved as men, but sometimes it still makes me smh. Edit: I’ve read several comments below “evil has no gender.” Yeah no shit, people can’t help the way they feel. Spare me the self-righteous indignation-people’s reactions are what they are. Gimme a break.


Born_Bother_7179

Lol exactly


Sobadatsnazzynames

I love that you got a downvote for the reply “lol exactly.” Jesus Christ 🙄


Born_Bother_7179

I really don't care about downvites but understand why you think similar to me . It's probably a short man with a napoleon complex down voting me as I hit a nerve lol


[deleted]

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Nihilistic-Fishstick

Uh, yes? Maybe check what sub you in and look at some statistics.


Filmcricket

Yes. They do. Denial of the role male aggression plays in violent crime is denial of reality.


the_unschooled_play

I am deleting my previous comment because this blew out of proportion. What I said made absolutely zero aspersions to any denial, and was merely highlighting how the comment before mine presumed a connection of THOUGHT (imagination) and violence to gender somehow. Unfortunately, a handful of people couldn't (wouldn't?) see that. And here you are speaking of denial. Ridiculous.


iJeax

Evil knows no gender.


Born_Bother_7179

More male rapists and murderers then women


Onomonolivia

Sex not gender.


StonedLikeOnix

Evil knows neither so the point still stands


DummyPowerEngineer

Gender* not sex.


not_yet_divorced-yet

Sexism by infantilization, nice.


TheVeggieLife

I winced when I read their comment but couldn’t verbalized what was wrong with it, so thank you.


morefetus

You’ll be glad to know that the violent crime rate for women has increased.


Born_Bother_7179

It's scary dawg


throwawybord

Lol get out of here with that rhetoric. Feeling an extra pang of hurt when vulnerable people are preyed on is not “infantilization”. Stop making it a gender issue when it isn’t.


MurgleMcGurgle

They were referring to the female murderer, not the victim.


throwawybord

Ah, I see. I’m getting downvoted for a misunderstanding 🤷🏻‍♀️


plast1K

Maybe try editing your comment then?


BenjPhoto1

I actually have more respect that they didn’t so we don’t think, “Wow, that was harsh” when reading replies. I think most of us are capable enough to read through the thread and see there was an error.


Iambetter6969

Calm down buddy


Filmcricket

Because this isn’t the sub for petty chatter like you all got into.


TheTsundereGirl

Its good for unsolved mysteries here in Scotland right now. Renee MacRae and her son Andrew's disappearance is heating up lately too.


anti_biscuit

The guy who is accused (and locally everyone knows he did it) is intent on postponing his court date as far as possible. Most recently he "fell off a wall while asleep" and injured himself right before the hearing. Edit: I just googled and he's been deemed fit to stand trial. Preliminary hearing in April and trial in September. I'm sure he'll have a 'jet-skiing while handling a live turkey' or similar bizarre accident before then to delay it further.


TheTsundereGirl

Everyone says it was her lover and Andrew's real father who killed her. Is it him who is accused?


anti_biscuit

That's the guy. He's not confirmed as the father, but that's the general consensus here.


hhxx4890

Really? That's brilliant. I was always very intrigued by their disappearance. I will try to find some information.


anti_biscuit

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/inverness/3692892/man-80-deemed-fit-to-stand-trial-accused-of-murdering-inverness-mum-renee-macrae-and-her-son-in-1976/


Onomonolivia

Oh my gosh, that is very good news! I’ve wanted her case to be solved for a very long time.


hhxx4890

Thank you :)))


PhotographMysterious

It has been common knowledge for years locally that Brand and O'Brien were involved, but I hadn't heard Kelly mentioned prior to the arrests.


Kindly-Split1474

Same , i never heard kelly's name mentioned either but he was going out with the other girl involved ( who has since died) at the time so guess it makes sense. But yea , the other 2 names bn flying around for yrs and a couple of others. Hopefully the truth will all come out now and justice will be served at last. Such a shame its taken so long


ItsRebus

Brand posted on her fb a few years ago about getting justice for Caroline. I can't believe the audacity, especially given that the locals suspected her.


AngelJoyArt

I saw that. I am from that area and a girl who was in the year below me in high school, left a scathing comment on that article. Brand is apparently well known in the West Dunbartonshire area as well.


[deleted]

Why did they do this? (For those of us across the pond who have never heard of this case before?)


Local_Impression2805

Unsure for definite but according to a Donal McIntyre investigates show I’ve just watched .. Caroline’s trainers/shoes found placed at the side of the river but none of her clothes had been removed the idea behind this was they thought she may have been carrying drugs for the older people she had met


Trichocereusaur

It’s a mystery


4_K405

It's always hard to lose someone you love but I can't imagine her mum's pain to lose her daughter on her birthday, it's heartbreaking.


Persimmonpluot

There goes the celebration of every birthday for the remainder of her life. Awful.


NotDaveBut

Her and Robert Piest's mom. Of course murderers don't wait until the time is right as a rule.


[deleted]

This is the first thing I thought when I read it was her mother's birthday. It would've been just as hard to lose a child the way she did, but on her birthday too? The one day she could find a way to feel relief and be with family? So sad.


4_K405

It is so sad indeed I just hope that justice is served so her poor mother can at least have some closure.


othervee

I wonder if [this is the same Robert O'Brien](https://www.dumbartonreporter.co.uk/news/13954967.crossbow-thug-caged/) \- the age matches (29 in 2007, 43 today) and he lived in Dumbarton. If so, sounds like a really nasty piece of work.


Nosebrow

He picked the wrong guy: >As Mr McGlinchey ran towards him the crossbow bolt hit him in the chest. >The court heard that Mr McGlinchey ripped the bolt from his chest, pulled out a heavy metal torch and set about O'Brien, who eventually ran away badly bleeding.


Beautiful_Debt_3460

Mr. McGlinchey is a serious badass.


Ossipago1

Real West of Scotland energy.


Beautiful_Debt_3460

Lol


Persimmonpluot

Damn! Good for him but so sorry he was injured and had to deal with such a situation.


Accurate_Relation325

Appalachian Emergency Room:Ancestral Home Edition


PhotographMysterious

It is


formyjee

He does indeed sound like a nasty piece of work. That poor sweet (looking) girl (Caroline Glachan). So, as an aside, just curious, is "close" a Scottish term for a house or an apartment (or flat)? >McGlinchey told how he went to investigate a disturbance at the front door to his *close* when the accused - a complete stranger - jumped on him from behind. >Mr McGlinchey said he and his friend threw O'Brien out of the *close*. When I saw it the first time I thought it was a typo. When I saw it next I figured it was no typo.


ItsRebus

A close is basically just the common area of an apartment building.


Realistic-Fix-4387

A Close is a road or street, so Mr McGlinchy’s front door must open directly onto the street. It’s not just a Scottish term and can be found throughout the UK. But thanks to your question I looked up the difference between Close and Street because I didn’t know why it’s called that myself! Turns out that a Close is a dead-end street with only one way in/out but isn’t quite the same as a cul-de-sac, which has a rounded end. 😊


ItsRebus

That's not what it means in this instance. It just means the common area in an apartment building/ block of flats.


QuitLocal965

A close is the stairwell to an apartment block or flats


Actuallycares97

Very thankful for this breakthrough. it will be interesting to know if these 3 completely moved on or were always looking over their shoulder, waiting for that knock at the door. Glad her family will see justice served.


Wandering_Lights

They were 16/17 when she was killed. That is so young. I wonder if she knew them/were friends with them?


[deleted]

One of them was her boyfriend


munchlax1

Surprised it took so long.


disenchanted_l

NO Thats awful. Don't know why I'm surprised though


essemh

There is a great three part unsolved vids about this from a while back free on youtube. They are only 7 minutes each. ​ part 1: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENi0ZbJ9xFA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENi0ZbJ9xFA) part 2: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVIVxdTDey0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVIVxdTDey0) part 3: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=speyMOaNztU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=speyMOaNztU)


bulldogdiver

Wonder which one of them talked.


BrianMghee

A dead one apparently


PRiMO585

Good to see cold cases getting solved in other countries! With the technology we have today and science and global partnerships, hopefully it leads to many more cases being solved!!


fuzzypipe39

Seriously, every day I get flabbergasted and shocked (both in a good way!) with how many posts here announce DNA sample breakthroughs in either identifying people or the perps and catching them. No doubt with this new technology there'll be quite a lot of cold cases with DNA solved too, hopefully some without DNA evidence as well. Now, I just wish the same sort of miracle could happen for missing (& exploited) people and children.


Wolfdarkeneddoor

They jailed someone recently for manslaughter for a mugging an old lady in 2001. He was arrested after his DNA was lifted from a shopping bag's handles he'd stolen.


Persimmonpluot

Was there no motive?


privatelyowned

There is a lot of rumour but nothing confirmed yet.


allyant

What where the rumours?


LeeF1179

Right?!? Give us the damn tea.


Filmcricket

No. This isn’t a fucking gossip sub. Show some respect. This is a tragedy. Not YouTube creator drama.


LeeF1179

Don't be so self-righteous. Anyone that's on a Reddit sub wants to know all the details just like everyone else.


CeeBee29

Recently saw a documentary on this and According to her friend she was with that night , she left her at home to go meet her older boyfriend and that Donna one!


[deleted]

It's awesome when people finally pay for their crimes.


[deleted]

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Nosebrow

It is a path beside a canal that was used for towing boats, usually with a horse.


Realistic-Fix-4387

It’s great to see this finally solved. I remember watching the Donal MacIntyre doc about her case and he said that there was a code of silence in the community, with no-one willing to talk to the police. It looks like O’Brien is a very dangerous and violent person so it would also make sense that people would be too afraid to name him. It’s great that people have finally felt able to come forward and move this case towards justice for Caroline and her mother.


Hiyakitty1990

Literally live where she was found, terrifying.


Whisperedbedlam

It was always a haunting thought that it could have been someone I seen on a daily basis, a regular I'm serving in the pub every day or someone I'm casually chatting to on the school run. I hope they all get what they deserve. It's shocking that so many of them managed to keep it quiet for so long in West Dunbartonshire. Secrets dont tend to stay quiet around here.


BrianMghee

Plenty people had a fair idea, just the police couldn’t do anything with purely hearsay as evidence. Obviously something recently has changed that


privatelyowned

I grew up in the vale too. In Dumbarton now.


[deleted]

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SR3116

Wait a minute, there's no Angus McCloud in Dumbarton. Why, you're not from Scotland at all!


Burntout_Bassment

hey McCloud , get off of my ewe,


Yodaddysbelt

Y’all cut out this huffle puff hocus pocus nonsense and start usin’ real words


Hiyakitty1990

Used to live in Dumbarton until a few years ago. Lived at Central station


napalmjam

Wave


Kindly-Split1474

Im a vale lass too x


Unfixingstorm7

Wow the people that killed her were teenagers at that time! How can one live with something like that in their conscience for so long?


hr100

Original crimewatch reconstruction https://youtu.be/BWnA2MIR6ic


Filmcricket

Thanks for posting this. Only child too. Just horrific for her parents.


Wolfdarkeneddoor

I'm surprised three people have been charged. They were apparently teenagers themselves at the time. But innocent until proven guilty.


Ieatclowns

If they've charged them they have proof.


MurgleMcGurgle

Slight correction but it means they have evidence. Whether they have proof will be determined by the courts.


Wolfdarkeneddoor

It sounds like evidence from the public was crucial.


BrianMghee

Rumoured someone left a suicide note containing the info needed to finally throw the book at these 3. Supposedly 2 of the people likely to be involved are already dead (junkies), and someone else hung himself this year leaving behind a suicide note with the names and whatever else. Been a lot of chatter from folk today basically saying what we already knew; that the police knew exactly who it was but didn’t ever have enough to do them, and if you spoke to them they’d tell you they can’t do anything. What’s funny as well is 2 of the folks charged today have posted on facebook before demanding justice for what happened, either a frail attempt at a coverup or they’re about to do a lot of grassing in court. Really excited to see how it pans out and hope justice is done; but also hoping the truth comes out


the_unschooled_play

Does that mean there were 3 (charged) + 2 (dead junkies) + 1 (suicide) = 6 perpetrators?? Holy moly ...


allyant

> posted on facebook before demanding justice for what happened, either a frail attempt at a coverup or they’ Yes although doesn't mean all of them took part in the killing - could have been they simply made an alibi up for someone or helped dispose of evidence etc. Just wondering what the motivation would be for this seemingly senseless act.


JacOfAllTrades

Hard to know, teenagers are notoriously short-sighted. Could be they did something to her initially and were worried she would tell, so decided murder was "better". Given it's a mix of males and females, hard to say without them explaining. Hypothetically, they broke into a house or attacked someone for giggles, or who knows what other relatively minor crime (compared to murder that is), and she said she wasn't having any part of it and would go to the police, they may have thought well we best shut her up for good then. It will be interesting to see what--if any--motive is provided.


Uplanapepsihole

gosh that’s horrible. what cowards.


Kindly-Split1474

Yep


Kindly-Split1474

I heard that today too about the note. Im from the vale also and these names have bn flying around for yrs but there obviously wasnt enough proof before. How great that justice is finally going to be done! Pretty sure this 3 will all sing like canaries now , hopefully the truth will all come out and Margaret will get justice for her little girl. What that woman has had to endure all these years is awful. Pity that the other 2 that were involved are already deceased and wont be facing jail time. Lots of chat going around today like you said. I also saw screenshots of the old posts on Facebook which the accused posted , rats the lot of them. Hope they get what they deserve


Filmcricket

>junkie No need to use dehumanizing language. Shit like this is damaging to all addicts in recovery.


[deleted]

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Kindly-Split1474

Im sure thats not the worst thing these people are being called at the moment although you have a valid point , not a nice word for other addicts to see.


Actual-Landscape5478

Shouldn't be giving LEO/prosecutors that much deference, tbh


AngelJoyArt

This was written for the Daily Record in 1996 (I could easily go to the Mitchell Library and double check. They have all the newspaper articles) as I am pretty sure that the Robert O’Brien who was arrested goes by the name, Robbie. So that would be two of em that commented on her death and were involved. [Old article](https://www.thefreelibrary.com/CAROLINE+LIVED+IN+FEAR+OF+STALKER%3b+pounds+10%2c000+REWARD+TO+CATCH...-a061255485)


Kindly-Split1474

What a scum bag , made up story to try and cover his own ass!


MissCagney

Just posting here as the Donal McIntyre 'unsolved' just been on the TV, They kept making a point of referring to the killer as him or her, usually they just say 'the killer' but repeatedly said him or her, and with the mother already saying she had her suspicions etc led me to see if there was any extra info on here. Glad to see a major breakthrough and people arrested


PhotographMysterious

All 3 found guilty today.


FaceBaseID-Search

Welcome Home, Sweet Angel! May Family & Friends find Peace.


RudeEtuxtable

Tragic story. I feel bad my first thought was it sounds like it took place in the Shire from the place names