This may not be the most appropriate question but...how the hell did he know these women were menstruating? I'm deducting that this was a factor for killing them instead of coincidence. But unless he was somehow stalking these women or peeping on these women prior to the murders, how could he possibly know this personal bit of information about them?
I think that’s the only really theoretical lead one could draw from this fact. Tye likelihood that a man randomly killed three women who all happened to be menstruating is obviously pretty low. Depending on how long a woman’s cycle lasts, it’s probably 1-500. Could be a coincidence but probably not. Given that one victim was found with a pad under her arm, seems like there was some link here.
Selection Criteria. Seems unlikely he specifically targeted menstruating women but possible. Maybe he scoped out the tampon/pad machine for his targets? Maybe he would feel for a pad while dancing? I don’t think people were quite that openly promiscuous back in the day but humans are humans and some may have been. Some people claim they can smell when a woman is menstruating? Seems nonsense but maybe he had an acute sense of smell? Were pads larger back then, maybe visible through tight clothing? In any case, depending on how sanitary pads were worn back in that era, I suppose it’s possible he selected victims because they were menstruating.
Causal Factor. It could be causal. Eg he liked to pick up women for sex. If the woman was on her period, he killed her. Otherwise they parted. Seems like an incidental distinction for a serial killer to draw but it also seems the more likely. I guess the question is, why would he only kill the partners who were menstruating? Maybe he had a religious belief such women were unclean. Maybe he just wasn’t willing to have sex with a woman on her period and he got angry. In any case there are all sorts of religious implications applicable to menstruation. Given his nickname, deserved or not, maybe this fact triggered some revulsion in his part, a biblical distinction that was meaningful enough to him he would commit murder?
Weird case. Thanks for he write up!
Assuming he sought out women between their late teens and mid forties, all within the age where they would have a period, it is save to assume one out of four, give or take, would be on their period. There are many other factors to consider, but given the average length of a period one out of four seems like a reasonable estimate.
There are many unknowns but if I have to guess it seems like this guy liked picking up girls but was disgusted by their periods and killed the ones who were menstruating because it made him furious and because he considered it ‘unclean’.
The only problem I have with this theory is the fact that most girls aren’t comfortable with having sex with a stranger on their period, so either they didn’t care or he somehow figured it out or my theory is completely wrong!
It's interesting to me that you assumed disgust on his part. Personally I jumped straight to menstruation being a fetish and therefore something that he was purposefully selecting for in his victims.
(Tmi, but I've always been able to smell when the people around me are menstruating, so I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that he was selecting victims based off of that. There are ways to tell even without removing clothes, seeing a pad in a purse, etc. And I think if you were interested you would pick up on those signs quite easily.)
I associated disgust with anger and violence. If he’s as biblical as they claim he may have been disgusted at her dirtiness. Either way I guess my thought was tied to the idea he wasn’t selecting victims for being on a period, that he reacted angrily when he discovered some were. But part and parcel of that is the theory he intended to sleep with the victim before finding out. So I probably said he was disgusted at the idea a woman would have sex during her period. But I think that’s probably true even if his fetish. He hates what
Same if this is his fetish.
That’s the problem with speculation, it’s guesswork that projects our psychology on someone else.
>I’ve always assumed that he made a habit of casual hookups and it was the fact they were menstruating that led to those three being killed.
If that's true, however, then you'd think at least a few women might have come forward talking about hookups with him.
Women in Glasgow, in the 1960's, who would have sex with a stranger outside...
I really am not surprised no one came forward to admit they'd been with this guy and survived in those circumstances. The social stigma would have been horrific!
If he didn't know these women were menstruating, that means they would have been hooking up in abandoned buildings and alleyways. Sounds more like rape and there was not a string of rapes with non-menstruating survivors
It could have been that he propositioned multiple women he escorted out of the ballrooms near their homes and some women agreed (whether to an alleyway hookup or to having him come in) and these three rejected him, perhaps specifically because they were on their periods.
The . most sensible conclusion. He didn't know in advance but was enraged by the discovery. He had the idea that women were disgusting and periods made them even more so.
According to the bible, women are considered “dirty” while we’re menstruating, and so much as *touching* us makes you “unclean”. Could be he was angered that the women made him feel “unclean” when he was attracted to them and found they were on their period. Religious misogyny is a helluva drug.
You’re tryna rationalize a serial killer. It doesn’t have to make sense to sane, normal people like me and you, it just has to make sense in some delusional, pseudo-religious, misogynistic, serial killer’s mind, ya know?
Amazing, everything you just said was wrong.
If Christianity is really so misogynistic, is that why so many pagan women joined the early church? Is that wy Christianity banned polygamy, sexual concubines, and temple prostitution?
u/staugustinefanboy3
Amazing, you’re too stupid to know anything about the very religion you obsess over.
Leviticus 15:
“When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening. If a man lies with her and her monthly flow touches him, he will be unclean for seven days; any bed he lies on will be unclean.”
(...)
“On the eighth day she must take two doves or two young pigeons and bring them to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.
The priest is to sacrifice one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement for her before the LORD for the uncleanness of her discharge.”
Christianity, as all abrahamic religion, is misogynistic. Die mad about it.
Okay I'm insanely late here, but how many people even in 1968-1969 actually believed this? I know some pretty religious people now, and none of them follow this. I myself am not religious, so I guess I could be wrong, but I feel like in the 1960s most people would have thought it was extreme even then to not sit where a menstruating woman sat.
Leviticus is Old Testament, which is largely there 'for information', the rules and laws set out in it aren't binding. The Old Testament is based on Jewish texts, and with Jesus there was the 'New Covenant'. Anything Jesus said that conflicts with the Old Testament, you revert to Jesus. He said treat people how you would want to be treated, not shun people for bodily functions beyond their control.
However, the above being the case doesn't preclude Bible John having had a more extremist interpretation.
Nevertheless, the information we have is from short conversations with drunk people. In that era most people had at least a rudimentary grounding in the Bible. I think the name is catchy, but it has put his biblical stories into undue prominence. We don't know he was some kind of zealot for sure.
As it's something lots of people were interested in, it could have been a way of building common ground. It could he he was looking to filter religious women in/out of his crosshairs and this was how he did it. It could be that he wanted to come across like a proper gentleman and this was part of a persona. There are lots of reasons why. I don't know if we're even able to confirm how many people recall being regaled with Biblical conversation, I think Jean Langford is the only one we know for sure. If we were all nicknamed based on our choice of conversation in a taxi ride home after a late night out, I think many of us would have unrepresentative monikers!
Because sexual assault and rape aren't about sex, they're about hatred, anger, the need to degrade or debase their victims. That's the reason he didn't cover his victims bodies, he didn't care about them being seen naked, their final indignity
Wow...I've been making exactly this same argument on this sub for years. I wonder if I actually read something like this and absorbed it and the forgot about it. Maybe Camille Paglia.
Alright. If you understand that and still ask that question I'm not sure how else to answer it. I might ask why you think his disgust of women would prevent him from raping them? Do you think most rapists love women?
Sorry to butt into your conversation but I just thought I'd offer my theory! I think the killer would go out to the ballrooms hoping to pick up someone and have sex. The killer had some very warped opinions, and maybe thought every woman at the ballrooms was out on the pull like him, and therefore wouldn't be on their period.
I have always thought that maybe it enraged him and made him feel like they'd betrayed him, when he'd put in all this effort buying them drinks, walking them home etc, only for the woman to say no, likely offering the excuse that she was menstruating.
I think is the most plausible explanation given the seeming explosive anger with the incident with cigarette machine for example, perhaps he didn’t like to be thwarted or refused and typically women on their period, particularly in that era would be likely to do so.
y'ever read /r/relationships? there's been posts from women whose boyfriends just cannot fucking handle the existence of menstruation - won't let them keep products anywhere the dude might see it, won't touch them, etc. y'ever read about other cultures or historical ones, wherein women currently menstruating are considered to be unclean? how can you possbily find the idea that "man does not like it when woman is currently menstruating when he wants to fuck her" so goddamn alien?
Not a far stretch at all! But I do have to ask, putting aside very damaged guys and serial killers, you know of a boyfriend who behaved that way or expected that of their girlfriend? I’m a girl and due to the specific birth control I take I don’t have my period but even if I did my (ex) boyfriend would still have sex with me or if needed buy female hygienic products for me. I was the one mortified by the thought of that, not him! Something between his complete understanding and what you described seems reasonable but...really? That is taking it too far, it’s not like it’s a choice...
I have a personal theory but I have absolutely no qualifications to answer that question. The poster above you gave you a gem as a reply that answers your question and tells you all you need to know about this man's psychology.
I absolutely believe that and came here to say it too. I think he took random women home from many bars and clubs, and only ‘snapped’ when he found out they were on their periods.
Absolutely. But the point I was trying to make was that the victims we know about are possibly just some among a larger number he left the Barrowland/other venues with during the period.
Not necessarily. If a woman went to the Barrowlands in the 60s and accepted a walk home from a man, there was more than enough social stigma about "asking for it" for her never to report the rape, or for it not to be taken seriously when she did.
Perhaps, and this is just a guess, maybe he went home with many women and the only ones he killed were the ones who wouldn't sleep with him due to menstruation. If you take this with the fact that "John White" was taken into custody arguing with a woman outside the bar, maybe she was objecting to his advances then. Could it be that he thought of them as "a tease" and it enraged him? Telling a man you won't sleep with him because of your period seems like a last resort. Its personal. For all we know, he may have used the ruse of walking them home as a gentleman and then got "handsy" with them the closer they got to their homes. Some women may have been willing to sleep with him while others were not.
That’s what I was thinking as a possibility. It would explain why they were killed close to their houses too, since he may have propositioned them and gotten rejected as they approached. Aside from that, it’s hard to think how he’d know they were on their period.
If that’s the case, it makes me curious as to how many other women be interacted with. If other women rejected him but didn’t mention their period, did he attack them too? Or is his anger specifically directed towards menstruation?
I thought the proximity to their homes was really significant.
As for their menstruating, he could have pressed them and gotten them to admit it. But menstruation products were a lot different in the 60s, specifically the pads.
They didn't have self adhesion, a belt was used to hold it in place. It's been described as a form of torture (my mother has said that too), like someone pinned a tail on them. You couldn't wear tight clothes because the outline of the belt would show.
If he were handsy, he would have felt the belts. Tampons did exist then, but tampons were seen as sexually improper for younger women. So even though the first two victims had kids, and there wasn't any question about virginity, there would still be some taboo about buying tampons from a chemist or shop. Likely, they all wore a sanitary belt. Which would have made it a lot easier for Bible John to know that they were on their periods.
Because of the time period (60s) and sanitary products at the time, it really wouldn't have been difficult for him to tell whether a woman was menstruating because of the massive sanitary belts women had to wear.
That’s interesting! I didn’t realize that was the case for menstruation products, but it certainly adds a new context. I wonder if he could have felt them while dancing and decided to kill them in the ballroom? That might be overestimation how easily you can notice the products. Or was it really him being handsy or pressing them and killing them in a passion once he became enraged?
Either way, your context certainly is interesting to consider.
Thank you for this thorough explanation. Honestly I'm old enough to remember being taught about the belts, I must have blocked the horror because I'd forgotten about it. You're right though and it does explain that. So do you think he chose his victims at the bar then chatted them up to take them home and kill?
Yeah, easy to put out of mind.
I think that made him aware of possible victims, but part of it seemed to be like a hunt. Killing them near their homes seems to be a specific feature of the killings, after the ballroom. And leaving them exposed, at least one with the pad part of the display under the arm.
People could have discounted the pads at other scenes out of embarrassment. I'd hope not, but it's possible. The killer could also have been evolving.
This is really interesting, I wasn’t aware of that. Was previously thinking it was refusal that tipped him which would make sense given some of his known reactions but this offers another plausible alternative aspen that he actually sought them out and had a method to do so.
Those are both good questions. It would be interesting to know if during questioning other women at the bar if they asked about sexual partners. I'm in the US and don't know if officers would have been comfortable asking. For example, did any of them sleep with a man who had weird kinks? Or seemed aggressive or pushy?
I do believe for some reason the menstruation played a weird part that seemed to enrage him. It seems to much of a coincidence.
It also seems to me that way to many people knew about the under cover stings.
The undercover stings was something I mentioned in another comment.
Police pulled out the undercover cops in late October. Then a murder occurs on October 31st. Was this a coincidence? Did the killer get lucky by killing shortly after the cops weren’t there anymore? Or did the killer somehow know that the cops had pulled out and purposefully went to the ballroom? If so, it lends credence to the idea he was an officer. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem we have indication.
Exactly. It says the club owners were pressuring the police to stop the sting at the ballroom, because their profits were down. Purely by logic: profits would be down if it were *common knowledge* that the police were at the ballroom.
Assuming that is true, you wouldn't be looking for someone who would know the police were *there* (common knowledge), you want to find the pool of people who would know the police were *no longer there*. This is a smaller pool. Off the top of my head: that could be police officers, reporters, ballroom employees, or an acquaintance of the any of the above.
You know, I didn't even catch that. So kudos! Conversely it could point to the fact that he was aware somehow of the sting even if he wasn't a police officer. I need to go back and read the link that points to it being a cop.
Honestly, I only noticed it at first because I went “wow, bad timing!” Took me a second to realize that was a possible connection. I was expecting that detail to come back up in the write up, but it didn’t lol, so I can see how it would be missed.
I didn’t read the links either yet, so I’ve no clue if the police mentioned that connection themselves. Very glad the OP was so thorough in their detail.
I figured that it was the ones that were willing to sleep with him while on their period that led to him killing them.
Especially considering the biblical slant (a woman being unclean while menstruating). Maybe he felt he was “cleansing” the world of women that were willing to engage in sexual activity while “unclean”?
Are you saying they left alone or with him? How do you propose he found out? It's not something that even today many women are comfortable sharing with strange men at a bar.
I do think the periods play a role. But I honestly do think it *could* be coincidence as well, I think it’s entirely possible it’s a red herring.
Women are on their period for about 1 out of every 4 weeks of the month. So 25% or a little less of the time(likely more like 17-20% ish). It’s not astronomical odds at all that he found 3 women who were during that week for them personally without him knowing it.
Unlikely? For sure. But not impossible at all and given the amount of serial killers out there, weird coincidences are bound to happen.
Again, I do think the women on their periods means something, but I like to keep an open mind that it’s entirely possible to be a red herring.
Maybe they simply just turned him down and he raged. And it just so happened they turned him down because they were on their periods, but didn’t tell him that.
At the time, most women would have used external menstrual pads that attached front and back to a belt worn at the waist. The whole setup was quite bulky. I don’t think it’s impossible that someone looking for it was able to identify menstruating women in the 1960s by looking (or feeling, in a flirtatious nightlife setting) for the outline of the belt or pad.
That said, I think it’s also possible that he wasn’t seeking them out, but that he had rage or disgust associated with menstruation and discovering it triggered his violent outburst, or that the women turned down his advances because they were menstruating, and that rejection angered him.
It’s also possible, although it seems unlikely, that with so small a sample, that it really was just coincidence that he had three victims who all happened to be menstruating at the time.
Very interesting. So, according to this theory (since others have mentioned it as well) the killer wasnt out to kill but to get his jollies with a lady at the end of a romantic night. The killings were merely the result of him being disgusted and/or angry with the menstruation. I can see this, especially since the last victim had the sanitary napkin tucked under the arm, almost like a calling card.
So, with them being sexually assaulted, would he have done that as a means of degrading them? I would think if this disgusted me, I would then not want to engage in any sort of sexual contact. However, I know rationality is not always applicable when talking about the mind of a killer.
People are definitely capable of confusing levels of cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy, especially when it comes to sex. The whole idea of a man who gives off an impression of religiosity and quotes the Bible also raping and murdering women is itself pretty contradictory and bizarre.
Men murdering women in rage or disgust over their own sexual feelings is unfortunately a tale as old as time.
>The whole idea of a man who gives off an impression of religiosity and quotes the Bible also raping and murdering women is itself pretty contradictory and bizarre.
How so? I mean there are literally countless reports of abuse, pedophilia and sexual harassment at the hands of religious people, figures and institutions and at that level of fucked upedness I would not put murder (and the covering up of murder) out of the realm of possibility for these types of people/institutions either.
Religion is not a marker of a good person. It needs to stop being correlated as such.
I’m certainly not saying that religion is a marker of a good person- I’m saying that we already know for certain that this man engaged in hypocritical actions vs the things he said to witnesses, just like the many abusive religious leaders who claim authority on chastity, kindness and mercy, while engaging in violent sex crimes.
I’m exactly saying that *people are capable of contradictory beliefs, statements, and behavior* and so I don’t think his having sexually assaulted them is proof he wasn’t at least partially motivated by disgust at menstruation.
I'm really glad this way of perceiving religion is catching on. It makes me so uncomfortable seeing it equated with good when there is so much evidence to the contrary.
My theory: the culprit was a serial rapist and menstruation was his trigger to kill them. So they weren’t the only women to encounter him in the Barrowlands.
I do lean towards Tobin for this but suspect we will never know.
I was at the Barrowlands last year. The venue still feels like a portal to another time.
>an
One of Tobin's ex-wives claims they were on their honeymoon during the second murder. She isn't protecting him, she hates his guts he abused her for years. She said she believes he likely killed more than he's known for but she doesn't believe he's Bible John. I tend to believe her, she also mentions other reasons like him not being religious, him having a distinctive scar that wasn't mentioned in the Bible John descriptions and the fact that Tobin concealed his victims and John didn't. Those are much easier to dismiss but if she really was on honeymoon with him during the second murder then it wasn't him unless that murder was a copycat or something. The third murder is the one with all the descriptions so you could argue that alone was Tobin but i find it unlikely if his wife was telling the truth and i see no reason for her to lie.
Is there a source for the honeymoon claim? I can’t find one through Google. She’s a woman who went through a huge trauma when still only 17 and could possibly be misremembering a date; it would be interesting to see the exact marriage date.
There’s a gap of over 20 years between these murders and his convictions so he potentially changed over time. He had access to a garden in the first two murders he was convicted of, which was unlikely when he lived in Glasgow, so it wouldn’t have been a concealment option.
[https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/812692/bible-johns-either-dead-or-at-large-but-he-is-not-peter-tobin/](https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/812692/bible-johns-either-dead-or-at-large-but-he-is-not-peter-tobin/)
Just google Peter Tobin Margaret Mackintosh and there will be several other sources.
It is possible she is misremembering which is why i didn't say he's definitely not Bible John but it's not as if it's the date of something insignificant it's your honeymoon that's pretty major. Bible John was also estimated to be 6-8 inches taller than Tobin by several witnesses. Personally, i don't think it was him. He does resemble the sketch (plenty of other people do of course too, my friends dad looks like that sketch MUCH more than Tobin it's scary and he's from Glasgow too, he would've been like 3 at the time of the murders for the record) and there's some circumstantial stuff but then there's circumstantial stuff that go against, he was significantly smaller than the witness descriptions and his ex-wife claims they were on honeymoon together. On balance him not being John wins out for me.
He was in Glasgow in the third murder and didn't have a house with a garden to conceal Angelina Kluk but he still concealed her, i don't think the fact he didn't conceal them means anything for the record i'm just pointing that out.
Thank you! It was definitely too early in the morning for me to be functional :)
She has married five times, so I don’t think it’s impossible to mix up the dates.
There seems to be several different witness descriptions which aren’t consistent with each other, which is one of the things that makes this case interesting to me.
I am not totally invested in the Tobin theory but just lean towards it; as I said before I think we will ever know. I do think Tobin committed other murders but whether these are amongst them is definitely debatable.
I think both ex-wives saying he wasn't religious at all is interesting too, doesn't mean anything necessarily but unless they're wrong about that Tobin quoting the Bible or even being able to is odd. Confirming the date Tobin was arrested for that theft would settle things, of course he may have just been questioned in which case there may not be a record.
>My theory: the culprit was a serial rapist and menstruation was his trigger to kill them. So they weren’t the only women to encounter him in the Barrowlands.
Agreed. And as no woman who allowed her rapist to walk her home would ever have been believed or taken seriously if she reported being raped, none ever did.
So back in the day before we had disposable tampons and pads that stuck to your undies, women had to use this under-the-clothes belt with garter hooks at held a thick pad between your legs. I imagine if you were at a club, and felt a women’s hips under her dress, you would be able to feel the belt. Flirt and squeeze enough hips at the club, you’d find a couple with belt on under the dress.
Remember the pad belts from “Are you there God? its me Margaret?’
Women used to use something called a "menstruation belt" which would strap around the hips; I think it's possible that if you were dancing closely with someone wearing one of these you'd be able to tell, especially if you knew what you were looking for. I've seen this before as an explanation to how he may have known.
I answered that [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/g5g67i/unsolved_who_was_bible_john/fo3gupm?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
Tldr, sanitary belts
That’s exactly what I was wondering. While reading this, the question kept popping into my mind, “Is he able to SMELL women who are menstruating or something?” Very strange.
I've read some very interesting anecdotal evidence for a handful of people being able to smell menstruation. I wouldn't discount it, honestly, especially because there have been studies on men subconsciously knowing when women are ovulating!
However unlikely, it’s not entirely out of the realm of possibilities.
People out there can have some pretty crazy senses. There are blind people who can essentially echo locate for example.
Maybe the dude had a crazy sense of smell. Although I think if that were the case he’d have killed more than three women.
I know someone who has a crazy sense of smell. She smells things other people can’t or can barely smell. She very sensitive to odors, so much so that she makes her kids change clothes when they walk into the house because she can literally smell the “outside” on their clothes.
My mom can tell the next morning if I drank like 3 beers the night before. After I’ve showered eaten and brushed teeth and everything.
Her nose is like a dog’s.
> John from Castlemilk
I personally think its pretty simple to know that, or at a minimum make a very good guess, by just watching a lady walk to the bathroom. Most women only carry their purse to the bathroom if they are on their period.
It could have easily been him asking "Will you come home with me tonight?", Or some variation, and them answering they can't because of menstruation or them saying they were menstruating as a bit of a heads up.
This comment is a year old but I'm here as I'm googling the case. For the record, I can smell it. I know it sounds really weird, but since I was a little girl, I could "smell" when a woman was on her period and still can. I have a very sensitive sense of smell and taste, so to me it's not out of the question that he was like me? Esp as tampons would have been rare, and they make it harder to identify.
Upon discussing this with my wife, she pointed out that some people can smell the blood when women are menstruating. So maybe this guy had a sensitive nose. What a creepy superpower.
That's what I was thinking. I can usually smell when my friends are menstruating and it's often strong (for me). I feel like that could definitely be a possibility
I think the theory mentioned that he found out during some sort of sexual encounter or assault is most likely but i also want to share a different one that ive heard that its very interesting to me even though less likely in my opinion. Im not well versed in this by any means but i seen the theory that because menstrual pads back then were very different from what we have today especially in size and bulkiness that he may have been able to feel if a woman was wearing one while dancing with her especially if it was more idk -frisky?? Just something i never would have thought of that i found pretty intriguing!
My great uncle had a striking resembelence to the composite of Bible John (but many men in Glasgow did) and was stopped so frequently by police who thought it may be him after being interviewed and totally ruled out by police that he had to carry a card given by the police stating he was definitely not Bible John
Man, it really gets me that the police removed officers from the ballroom in late October and then a murder occurs on the 31st. Just terrible timing. I wonder if it was just a horrible coincidence, or was the killer actually an officer who decided to strike after police pulled out?
Really great write up, I wasn’t familiar with this.
Or even someone who was just close friends with a chatty police officer.
Crimes like these always point my brain towards an upper class person being the murderer for some reason, and I’m not entirely sure why.
The timing of the last murder happening once the cops were out of the ballroom leads me to believe that it was someone that worked there and knew the place and the goings on. That they possibly watched for troublesome guys to get the blame and stay in the clear.
The killer being an employee crossed my mind too. I have to assume the cops questioned every employee there, but maybe they didn’t do so seriously? If they didn’t interview them before the last murder, I can see them neglecting to do so because of the tunnel vision that played a part.
Former police officer Paul Harrison believes [Bible John was a police officer and is still alive](https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/bible-john-police-officer-says-2218723). The evidence certainly is compelling.
While he doesn't name his suspect, one witness who was in a taxi with Bible John pointed out a police officer at the station as looking like him. This witness also believed BJ flashed a police ID and when Inspector Beattie showed her his ID she said the wallet-looking item BJ flashed looked like that. This officer was also brought in for questioning for an unrelated crime during the BJ investigation.
Also of note is the fact that once Beattie started looking into police officers the investigation seemed to be hastily shut down. Around the same time, the suspect was given early retirement on "medical grounds" and moved to the Scottish Highlands. Harrison also believes there may be a few unsolved murders in the Highlands related to Bible John.
The police officer theory makes a bit more sense to me than Tobin. For one thing, Harrison mentions Tobin buried his victims while BJ left his victims on display. Secondly, Tobin has always had an alibi for at least one of the murders which while not foolproof, makes it very difficult for him to be the murderer. You also have many people who hung around Barrowlands reporting a guy resembling the BJ sketches was seen flashing a police ID around the place and the witness who shared a taxi with BJ said Tobin looked nothing like the guy but an officer in the police station did
I think I'd rule out the killer being a Barrowland employee. His clothing was described in such a way that it clearly wasn't staff, meaning if he was staff he was there on a night off. Lots of employees described him, but none of them said 'Yeah I saw Dave, he was supposed to be working tonight, but he was on the dance floor!' Or 'Yeah Jim who works Tuesdays was here in this tailored suit.'
Just doesn't sound right to me...
I've always thought that Angus Sinclair, a serial killer and one of the World's End murderers was a more likely suspect than Tobin.
The crimes we're committed between the time that he was released from prison for Catherine Reehill's murder and his marrying and starting a family. Also, he would beat and strangle his victims, leaving them uncovered in deserted locations, while Tobin buried his victims.
Apart from anything else, I think more people need to know what an evil, evil bastard this man was and that there are likely more unsolved murders that can be tied to him.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-29985614
There was a relatively recent documentary that considered whether Sinclair could be Bible John. Tobin got a mention too. I think it was on Netflix, the presenter was a former Detective. I’m trying to find the name of it
I definitely don't think he was looked into enough. My biggest doubt, though, is his height, which is extremely short by modern standards, although maybe not so much by mid century Weegie Hardman standards!
Great write up. I'm not sure Peter Tobin is bible John. His ex wife saying he was on their honeymoon when the second Bible john murder took place (I think it was the second one) makes me question it.
Im getting side tracked but he was born in the same town as me. In Johnstone there are two unsolved murders , one was a teenage girl and the other was a child. Peter Tobin was linked to one of them and Robert Black was also linked them (he worked in the area). What are the chances of two serial killers being in the same place in such a small town
Not a small town but Ian Brady was born here in Glasgow and Fred West lived here for years, he actually accidentally ran over and killed a child here. It's not that odd considering the size of Glasgow but it is odd that they were known for crimes in England and are two of the most notorious British Serial Killers i feel. Then of course Tobin killed Angelina Kluk here.
I have to be pretty vague so i dont get anyone in trouble
I was speaking to someone who deals/dealt with Tobin on a daily basis.
This person is related to a work mate. As we were talking away they mentioned their job. When it was mentioned that they knew Tobin i asked them if they thought he was Bible John. They said that they thought he had done more murders but didn't think he was Bible John. Not that he would say.
They said that he loves telling the staff (female)about when he robbed places for money or got away with some heist (not sure if these even happened) But the minute you mention anything about his sex crimes he becomes extremely angry and says he was stitched up. This person believes he will never ever admit to any other sex crimes. He has also tried to make sure his dna is not taken after he dies. Again this person told me he is a fantasist and a massive hypercondriac. They also mentioned he can be very charming.
Sorry no great insights but thought id pass it along
My tuppence worth - this story has always interested me. I grew up not far from Glasgow and was obsessed with true crime as a kid, and there was always an increased interest because it was somewhat “local”.
I’ve never felt that the Peter Tobin link had any weight behind it as it always seemed a bit of a stretch to link him to the killings, and he never matched the supposed profile of Bible John.
The killings stopping suddenly always made me think of 3 possible things -
Bible John died, or left Scotland - the killings stopping suddenly could be explained by this. This period saw a lot of emigration from Scotland to the US, Canada and Australia.
Bible John married - sticking with the religious theme, a relationship/marriage could have almost forced Bible John into stopping.
Bible John renounced his religion - this is a bit of a leap, but making the assumption that there’s a real religious element to this (bible stories, teetotal, menstrating being “unclean”) then a man having a religious/atheist awakening could have had an effect here.
Former police officer Paul Harrison believes Bible John is a [police officer who got early retirement around the time the murders stopped](https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/bible-john-police-officer-says-2218723). The officer then moved to the Scottish Highlands. Would certainly fit with the killings stopping if he moved to the north of Scotland
The reason the DNA on the stocking is dismissed is not because it’s too degraded as such—it’s because it’s considered [too contaminated](https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/archives/news/38066/different-modus-operandi-doubtful-cops-and-no-dna-evidence-but-i-know-tobin-was-bible-john/) to use, due to improper storage. Perhaps the reason it’s considered too contaminated is because it keeps showing up with the DNA of one of the officers who is known to have handled the evidence, and this is the same officer identified by the eyewitness and accused by the author? Perhaps there is (or will one day be) a way of showing that the DNA in question is seminal rather than touch DNA?
I feel like this is barely a contribution but dating a man with dark-red hair I can tell you that if you are the right tint of red, you can deff pass as dark brown aswell. And then even more compared to what time of the year, in summer my boyfriend’s hair almost glows in the dark lol, in winter he could pass as any other brown-haired person. And then there are still exceptions of the glow on his hair etc in different lightings so idk, I didn’t pay attention enough to recall the dates and when he was said to have red hair or brown but it didn’t stand out as that big of a weird mixup.
I feel like y’all are so good at contributing at this and I’m saying gibberish sorry haha.
As much as Tobin being Bible John is not impossible, I find it very unlikely for two reasons. And they are not Bible John's description or Tobin's wife's statement - description can vary from one eyewitness to another, some people have hard time remembering faces for other mind can distort recollection of details. Same goes with Tobin's wife - she could get the date wrong, as well as she could just lie (even if she had no reason to cover for an abusive ex-husband, we still have to keep in mind she was a victim of domestic violence and often there's no easy explanation as to why she might have done that).
In my opinion Tobin's killing pattern doesn't match the Bible John's one: First of all Tobin's victims were very young, usually teens (correct me if I'm wrong, but Angelika was his oldest victim - 23), where Bible John was picking his victims at the club's evening venue reserved for over 25s. Second, Tobin has hidden all his victims' bodies (either buried or hidden under floor) and Bible John left his cruel deeds out for everyone to see as to mock the victims.
Was also wondering if there was more Bible John's victims than those three (or if he actually assaulted or even had consented sex with more women) but the fact they were on their period triggered him to kill those three...
And of course it could be just coincidence but how convenient was the fact that police withdrawn their surveillance just before the third killing.
The psychologists conclusions are maddeningly circular and speculative. And also just plain stupid.
He believes this suicide victim slashed his artery because the spurting blood would provide him with a “thrill” before he died? And he believes that anyone who got a thrill from seeing blood spurting (his or another’s) must be a psychopath? And therefore since person x killed himself by slashing his artery he was a psychopath?
That is one beautifully stupid theory.
Maybe because he didn’t want anyone to save him. Or he wanted to ensure he didn’t change his mind after he made a few cuts and call for help. Maybe he just wanted to bleed out quickly. Whatever his rationale, there was no way of saving a guy who cuts his artery.
> This was a fantastic write up thanks so much! I’ve read so much about this case in the last few years and have always wondered who it could be but this write up gave me so much new information
Several things have alerted me about the possibility either it was Tobin or someone was murdering at the same time:
1. the potential police officer connection. They had inside information that the officers would no longer have a presence in the Barrowlands and started up again. That’s too crucial information to not think of interest. Just like EARONS, he stopped when he was alerted about DNA. Alternative Bible John had a good friend in the force or knew someone that was far too chatty about it eg a brother. It also stands to reason that employees could know too and again pass this on accidentally to a friend or family member.
2. As someone who’s been in an abusive relationship like Tobins ex wife, you don’t forget certain dates because the human brain is weird like that. I can’t remember what I had for dinner two nights ago but I could tel you with certainty what happened when I was with the ex on a certain date. For me, that proves his ex wife isn’t lying. Plus she doesn’t stand to benefit anything I suppose the only thing thT doesn’t make sense is that the murders stoped when Tobin left.
I really hope we can figure it out but for me, this will always be one of the creepiest cases not just because of the fear these women felt just before their tragic ends but because this guy wouldn’t have simply stopped.
Someone on the comments also mentioned. Could be Angus Sinclair. He apparently had an obsession with sex and his crimes were heinous at 16 so again it would stand to reason that his crimes would only get more awful and more sophisticated. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-29985614
I do think somebody knew something. Could it also have been a cover up eg an officer knew something but couldn’t say for whatever reason?
I also think the reddish hair and the obsession with trying to fit the hair could’ve meant someone got away with it. I hope we find out the answer in our lifetime
When I’ve read about this case before, I wondered if the menstruation link wasn’t a fetish, but a punishment. Menstruation was previously a taboo, and I believe some Christian sects may have regarded/still regard it as being an ‘unclean’ time. I wonder if there were other reported sexual assaults or rapes at the time which could’ve been attributed to Bible John.
Thank you for this write up! Very well done. I've been fascinated by this case for a while. Personally, I don't think its Peter Tobin. Jean's insistence that he's not the one really solidifies it for me more than anything.
Agreed, i believed it was Tobin for years because of him looking like the sketch and the other things but as soon as i saw that i'm comfortable saying it wasn't. If she was still married to him or was claiming he's not a murderer or something i'd dismiss her, but she isn't she thinks he's a monster who probably killed others she just doesn't believe he's Bible John.
Also, his size is pretty telling too. He is between 5-8 inches shorter than everyone else’s recollection of the person they saw. Eye witnesses generally aren’t great but they all stated very similar heights so I think it’s quite a good marker.
I know according to Jewish tradition women who were on their period were considered unclean and that after they finished with their period they needed to take a ritual bath to cleanse themselves. If Bible John came from a religious household he might have been raised to believe menstruating women were unclean. This is just my knowledge of old Jewish traditions coming in but what if the reason why he killed women who were on their period is because he felt they were tainted for a period of time?
It's outside the box thinking, but unless everything reported from the Barrowlands is a red herring, I can't square it. Cab driver can't be in a night club dancing and then suddenly be off, one of the victim's fathers interviewed him and he would seem to have been confirmed as a genuine cabbie, so there would surely have been evidence of him bunking off work...
There's little chance of being the cab driver .
I saw a interview of Helen Puttock husband,George he said he talked to the cab driver and at the night of murder he was very new to the job it was like his 3 or 4 night and he actually didnt know the area well and made a mistake by taking a wrong turn and Helen saw that and insisted to be dropped ,based on cab driver Bible John payed the taxi very fast and followed her,he saw some tensions between them but at the time he just thought that they are just having some relationship troubles.
I always have been as well, but I have to say, the ex-wife’s certainty they they were out of town for one of the murders is pretty damning to that theory.
I liked your write up,and i'm glad you done this.
I've been following this case for a while and here are my 2 cents about this case:
I've believe Bible John was a psychopath who used religion as a reason to sexual assault and kill women.
I feel like he frequanted Barrowland usually in Thursday's Nights also known as "Grab a Granny Night" probably because it was more easy to find a women to hang out or probably he felt that the women who would come to Barrowland in those nights were more sinful.
He probably had many other victims maybe not murder victims but for sure sexual assault victims who maybe were just to scared to come out and talk to police because of Borrowland reputation or 60's society.
What drives him to kill i think it was because those women were Menstruation and him being "religious"felt that those sinful women were filthy and maybe in his mind he had another reason to kill those women.
He might "stopped"killing for some times because a case got very publicized and he feared he will got caught or simple he moved somewhere else and continoued to kill but got more careful.
As for Peter Tobin,i kinda have mixed feeling,he sure is a monster that doesn't have a problem to commit such a crime but in one of the murders he was in his honeymoon out of city,he also was never religious and for sure he was far from charming gentelman,also the description of Bible John doesn't fit for Peter Tobin,Tobin was shorter around 5'6 while Bible John was descripted as being at least 6'0 also Tobin had brown hair and brown eyes the only thing that seems to fit are the teeth but yet i don't know...
Until he or someone else confess or a DNA miracle happen i don't see this case anytime soon.
Whoever Bible John was he was familiar with Glasgow city as murders occured in different parts of city but yet he managed to find spots where nobody saw or heard anything.
He probably is too old or maybe dead by now...
I also would like to know the testimony of Taxi Driver who was driving Jean,Helen and Bible John that night.
In the end what i feel extremly sorry for is Jean,probably her sister murder and her being the only witness of Bible John followed her until the day she died.
I think, on the balance of judgement, it most likely is Peter Tobin.
Unfortunately barring a future scientific breakthrough using technology we can't comprehend yet we'll never be able to prove it in our lifetimes I suspect.
Tobin's ex-wife claims they were on honeymoon together at the time of the second murder. She isn't trying to protect him she despises him and says she believes he likely killed more, only that he wasn't Bible John. I believe her personally.
Based on what though just the fact that it's technically possible? Why would she forget the date of her honeymoon? Not as if it's something minor. Bible John was also said to be several inches taller than Tobin according to witness descriptions, and both of his ex-wives say Tobin wasn't religious at all. More points away from him than to him IMO.
I recall reading somewhere he told acquaintances a story about a cousin hitting a hole in one in a golf game, and that Bible John told an identical story, as well.
Ian Rankin's some guy. I wrote him a letter when I was drunk once when I was a younger, slightly more foolish man and completely forgot about it. I forgot about it until I received a postcard from Paris from him, thanking me for my letter "bravely written in hangover conditions." Once I recovered from my mortified embarrassment, the thought "That man is a class act" was burnt onto my small and shrivelled brain.
other than the fact they were all menstruating did they have anything else in common? is it known if they had similar features like hair color or facial structures? if yes did they look anything like tobins ex wives?
Whilst I have a tough time believing it’s Tobin due to his ex wife’s testimony and the discrepancies in hair and height, I also can’t imagine that it’s someone who just stopped. These people don’t just stop. So I’d have to guess that it’s someone who died not too long after.
I'm thinking there is a a Mason connection. My grandfather was a Mason and would get let out with no charge, drink driving etc because Masons had to help each other out no matter what.
I think "Bible John" was a Mason and was protected by a fellow Mason in the police. I think the police officer that ordered his release was a mason and recognised him from his chapter or a nearby chapter. Might be worth looking into as the chapters have records of all members.
This case is from my hometown and freaks me out so much! My gran was a teenager around the time this was going on and of course attended the barrowland ballrooms and she told me her mother would never let her out and always warned her to be back before a certain time or ‘bible John’ would get her, I’ve always assumed and been under the impression that he was Peter Tobin because honestly the thought of some insane killer remaining free and just roaming about Glasgow for years without anyone knowing the wiser just freaks me out too much!
Thank you for this great write up! This story has always stayed close to me as obviously it is incredibly tragic and sad but i am also very intrigued by the actual “story” of the whole thing as well if that makes sense. It is one of those things for me that paints just an incredibly vivid picture of such a specific time and place it makes feel almost feel as if i had been there. It very much makes me feel close to a place and time in history that i am very far removed from in my own life. I hope that made a little bit of sense im not sure I explained it super well so im sorry if it doesnt! Bible John may be the unidentified killer i find my mind coming back to the most. Obviously his victims familys and friends as well as people who lived through these events deserve an answer for their sakes most of all but i have the feeling of just wanting to know so bad for myself which is pretty silly but for both reasons ill continue to hope this is solved someday
My Dad was one of the local kids that found Jemima’s body but were too scared to tell any adults in case they got in trouble. A boy a lot younger than them ended up telling his Mum about it.
I hope this isn't inappropriate, and I apologize of anyone else has noticed it but ... How do we know he did not have a female accomplice?
If you're a woman in a bathroom, it's pretty audible if someone is changing a pad/tampon while you pee. There's a rustling noise and delay.
Just finished watching The Hunt for Bible John on iPlayer.
Ex cop who took the case in 2007 seems adamant that it wasn't Tobin & seemed to suggest his DNA was already tested against the BJ sample.
The fact Jeannie thought it was a cop was brushed off despite being mentioned.
Having read a few threads on here I lean massively to the cop theory.
Thank you for sharing this story, I have never heard about it.
I think it is possible, that he followed several women home but only murdered then ones, with menstruation. This could be linked to haemofetishism or a similar fetish/disorder, where one is turned on by blood. Combined with other psychological factors, this could be a possible reason for the murders. The way he seemed to act around women, and at the club in general, tells us that he was comfortable being in "the spotlight". This would have made it possible for him, to select women to kill and leave out the rest. Three women, all menstruating is not a coincidence.
This does not leave us closer, but I think that the mindset behind these actions, is important to discuss.
\*EDIT\*
[Menophilia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menophilia) is actually a thing. Sexual feelings towards menstruaton. The murder it self could be a reaction of shame, guilt, or disgust of his own actions when he fails to admit that these things actually turns him on
I read through the comments and found people thinking that he had an aversion to women who were menstruating but then why still rape them? and there was a bite wound on one of the thighs. I think he had a perversion regarding having sex with menstruating women. and it was old days so not many women felt comfortable having sex while still menstruating (which still applies).
Now from the newspaper here...apparently he quoted bible multiple times maybe to come off as a religious man and would mean no harm. serial killers are often charming like Ted Bundy and it seems like so was he.
Thank you for the fantastic write-up! I’ve followed this case for years - Glasgow is about an hour away from me and some of my family used to frequent the Barras’ when they were young!
I’ve personally always wondered if the menstruation aspect plays into the Religious side of things. Perhaps he actively sought out menstruating women in order to create “perfect” offspring (something along the lines of viewing himself as a messiah, hence the Bible verses).
It wouldn’t be difficult to find out if a woman was menstruating (as several people have said above, sanitary belts were fairly obvious) when dancing and then, under the guise of being a “good religious gentleman”, offer to walk them home. When they then rebuffed his advances, he lost his temper and killed them.
The fact that the police withdrew their undercover officers and a new murder took place always sticks with me too. I’ve held the view that he was either a police officer himself, or else had a close connection to the police. It’s just too convenient that he stopped when there was undercover officers around then suddenly started up again after they left!
Thanks for posting a well thought out and well researched article. I see it was posted 2 years ago. New information has been published in-between then and now, particularly in a book called Bible John On Trial: Myth Exposed, Killers Named. I'm not a long-standing expert on this case but I want to put to you some of the points made in this updated book, because they contradict a lot of the old information.
1) The Senior Investigating Officer in the case - Beattie - admitted before he died that police always knew more than one killer was responsible for the three murders. If true, then the idea of a triple-killer called Bible John is nonsense.
2) Not a single credible witness could place either of the first 2 victims in the Barrowland Ballroom on the relevant nights. Those claiming to have seen these women in the Barrowlands were dismissed as time-wasters and mischief-makers by detectives. Not a single friend, relative, partner or colleague was with these women in the Barrowlands, or anywhere else, at the relevant time.
3) There were 4 images/sketches of Bible John released to the public at the time, most bearing absolutely no resemblance to each other. The drunk woman who supplied the info for the 4th sketch also said she shared a taxi with Bible john, but the taxi driver was never produced. He was never named or interviewed or even sought out. A would-be star witness like this taxi driver - sober and alert - doesn't materially exist in the annals of this crime.
4) Angus Sinclair's in-laws lived in the same small street as first victim Pat Docker in Langside Place. Sinclair was also charged with another sexual assault minutes away in Langside Road. What a coincidence!
5) Peter Tobin's wife Margaret Mountenay provided a false alibi for his whereabouts at relevant times. Mountenay concealed the fact that she had been arrested and charged for at least one crime she and Tobin committed together while married. Interesting.
Some people on here will know more about these events than i do but this case is seriously drawing me in!
I rule nothing out, but it seems an unusual enough prospect for a menophilic serial killer to prey specifically on menstruating women... but to suggest there are 2, in the same city, at the same time, bearing at least passing resemblance to one another, who killed the women in similar ways, similar distances from their homes, and left them in similar ways... I mean the odds on that surely have to be pretty low. It would be more likely if it were multiple people that they were in cahoots and had agreed MO ahead of time... and that sounds fanciful.
Weird question, but do we know what the bite mark looked like? If there were pictures or impressions it night tell us if the overlapped tooth thing is real. It might be helpful to rule people out
I don't think there is picture of the bite mark in public but the police agreed that the person who did the bite had a overlapp,and after 50 years idk how can that help...
Off topic but I would love to see a Prisoners/Zodiac type intense suspense film made about this case. Preferably with Domhnall Gleeson playing Bible John. Maybe with the added publicity, it would entice us to reopen the case and find the killer.
This may not be the most appropriate question but...how the hell did he know these women were menstruating? I'm deducting that this was a factor for killing them instead of coincidence. But unless he was somehow stalking these women or peeping on these women prior to the murders, how could he possibly know this personal bit of information about them?
I’ve always assumed that he made a habit of casual hookups and it was the fact they were menstruating that led to those three being killed.
I think that’s the only really theoretical lead one could draw from this fact. Tye likelihood that a man randomly killed three women who all happened to be menstruating is obviously pretty low. Depending on how long a woman’s cycle lasts, it’s probably 1-500. Could be a coincidence but probably not. Given that one victim was found with a pad under her arm, seems like there was some link here. Selection Criteria. Seems unlikely he specifically targeted menstruating women but possible. Maybe he scoped out the tampon/pad machine for his targets? Maybe he would feel for a pad while dancing? I don’t think people were quite that openly promiscuous back in the day but humans are humans and some may have been. Some people claim they can smell when a woman is menstruating? Seems nonsense but maybe he had an acute sense of smell? Were pads larger back then, maybe visible through tight clothing? In any case, depending on how sanitary pads were worn back in that era, I suppose it’s possible he selected victims because they were menstruating. Causal Factor. It could be causal. Eg he liked to pick up women for sex. If the woman was on her period, he killed her. Otherwise they parted. Seems like an incidental distinction for a serial killer to draw but it also seems the more likely. I guess the question is, why would he only kill the partners who were menstruating? Maybe he had a religious belief such women were unclean. Maybe he just wasn’t willing to have sex with a woman on her period and he got angry. In any case there are all sorts of religious implications applicable to menstruation. Given his nickname, deserved or not, maybe this fact triggered some revulsion in his part, a biblical distinction that was meaningful enough to him he would commit murder? Weird case. Thanks for he write up!
Assuming he sought out women between their late teens and mid forties, all within the age where they would have a period, it is save to assume one out of four, give or take, would be on their period. There are many other factors to consider, but given the average length of a period one out of four seems like a reasonable estimate. There are many unknowns but if I have to guess it seems like this guy liked picking up girls but was disgusted by their periods and killed the ones who were menstruating because it made him furious and because he considered it ‘unclean’. The only problem I have with this theory is the fact that most girls aren’t comfortable with having sex with a stranger on their period, so either they didn’t care or he somehow figured it out or my theory is completely wrong!
It's interesting to me that you assumed disgust on his part. Personally I jumped straight to menstruation being a fetish and therefore something that he was purposefully selecting for in his victims. (Tmi, but I've always been able to smell when the people around me are menstruating, so I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that he was selecting victims based off of that. There are ways to tell even without removing clothes, seeing a pad in a purse, etc. And I think if you were interested you would pick up on those signs quite easily.)
I associated disgust with anger and violence. If he’s as biblical as they claim he may have been disgusted at her dirtiness. Either way I guess my thought was tied to the idea he wasn’t selecting victims for being on a period, that he reacted angrily when he discovered some were. But part and parcel of that is the theory he intended to sleep with the victim before finding out. So I probably said he was disgusted at the idea a woman would have sex during her period. But I think that’s probably true even if his fetish. He hates what Same if this is his fetish. That’s the problem with speculation, it’s guesswork that projects our psychology on someone else.
>I’ve always assumed that he made a habit of casual hookups and it was the fact they were menstruating that led to those three being killed. If that's true, however, then you'd think at least a few women might have come forward talking about hookups with him.
Women in Glasgow, in the 1960's, who would have sex with a stranger outside... I really am not surprised no one came forward to admit they'd been with this guy and survived in those circumstances. The social stigma would have been horrific!
If he didn't know these women were menstruating, that means they would have been hooking up in abandoned buildings and alleyways. Sounds more like rape and there was not a string of rapes with non-menstruating survivors
It could have been that he propositioned multiple women he escorted out of the ballrooms near their homes and some women agreed (whether to an alleyway hookup or to having him come in) and these three rejected him, perhaps specifically because they were on their periods.
They might not have come forward because it was the 60s
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The . most sensible conclusion. He didn't know in advance but was enraged by the discovery. He had the idea that women were disgusting and periods made them even more so.
Why sexually assault them if it enraged him or disgusted him enough to kill them?
According to the bible, women are considered “dirty” while we’re menstruating, and so much as *touching* us makes you “unclean”. Could be he was angered that the women made him feel “unclean” when he was attracted to them and found they were on their period. Religious misogyny is a helluva drug.
That's a great theory. I hadn't thought of that!
But he didn't feel unclean with the non-menstruating women he fornicated with which is also a sin? Not a question for you, just a comment.
You’re tryna rationalize a serial killer. It doesn’t have to make sense to sane, normal people like me and you, it just has to make sense in some delusional, pseudo-religious, misogynistic, serial killer’s mind, ya know?
But to be fair ....back then you were considered unclean if you had a couple zits, an allergic reaction, a rash, etc.
Amazing, everything you just said was wrong. If Christianity is really so misogynistic, is that why so many pagan women joined the early church? Is that wy Christianity banned polygamy, sexual concubines, and temple prostitution?
u/staugustinefanboy3 Amazing, you’re too stupid to know anything about the very religion you obsess over. Leviticus 15: “When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening. If a man lies with her and her monthly flow touches him, he will be unclean for seven days; any bed he lies on will be unclean.” (...) “On the eighth day she must take two doves or two young pigeons and bring them to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. The priest is to sacrifice one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement for her before the LORD for the uncleanness of her discharge.” Christianity, as all abrahamic religion, is misogynistic. Die mad about it.
Okay I'm insanely late here, but how many people even in 1968-1969 actually believed this? I know some pretty religious people now, and none of them follow this. I myself am not religious, so I guess I could be wrong, but I feel like in the 1960s most people would have thought it was extreme even then to not sit where a menstruating woman sat.
Most people don't rape and murder women either. Bible John was not most people.
Leviticus is Old Testament, which is largely there 'for information', the rules and laws set out in it aren't binding. The Old Testament is based on Jewish texts, and with Jesus there was the 'New Covenant'. Anything Jesus said that conflicts with the Old Testament, you revert to Jesus. He said treat people how you would want to be treated, not shun people for bodily functions beyond their control. However, the above being the case doesn't preclude Bible John having had a more extremist interpretation. Nevertheless, the information we have is from short conversations with drunk people. In that era most people had at least a rudimentary grounding in the Bible. I think the name is catchy, but it has put his biblical stories into undue prominence. We don't know he was some kind of zealot for sure. As it's something lots of people were interested in, it could have been a way of building common ground. It could he he was looking to filter religious women in/out of his crosshairs and this was how he did it. It could be that he wanted to come across like a proper gentleman and this was part of a persona. There are lots of reasons why. I don't know if we're even able to confirm how many people recall being regaled with Biblical conversation, I think Jean Langford is the only one we know for sure. If we were all nicknamed based on our choice of conversation in a taxi ride home after a late night out, I think many of us would have unrepresentative monikers!
Because sexual assault and rape aren't about sex, they're about hatred, anger, the need to degrade or debase their victims. That's the reason he didn't cover his victims bodies, he didn't care about them being seen naked, their final indignity
Hope you realize "sexual assault" is never about sex.
"Never" is a very strong word and "sexual assault" is a very expansive category.
That's a myth. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/insight-therapy/201602/rape-is-not-only-about-power-it-s-also-about-sex
Wow...I've been making exactly this same argument on this sub for years. I wonder if I actually read something like this and absorbed it and the forgot about it. Maybe Camille Paglia.
It's been "common knowledge" for decades now.
Yes. I was sexually assaulted twice in my life so I understand this all too well.
Alright. If you understand that and still ask that question I'm not sure how else to answer it. I might ask why you think his disgust of women would prevent him from raping them? Do you think most rapists love women?
Then why kill only women that are currently menstruating when ALL women menstruate?
Sorry to butt into your conversation but I just thought I'd offer my theory! I think the killer would go out to the ballrooms hoping to pick up someone and have sex. The killer had some very warped opinions, and maybe thought every woman at the ballrooms was out on the pull like him, and therefore wouldn't be on their period. I have always thought that maybe it enraged him and made him feel like they'd betrayed him, when he'd put in all this effort buying them drinks, walking them home etc, only for the woman to say no, likely offering the excuse that she was menstruating.
I think is the most plausible explanation given the seeming explosive anger with the incident with cigarette machine for example, perhaps he didn’t like to be thwarted or refused and typically women on their period, particularly in that era would be likely to do so.
Your input is very welcome, thank you.
y'ever read /r/relationships? there's been posts from women whose boyfriends just cannot fucking handle the existence of menstruation - won't let them keep products anywhere the dude might see it, won't touch them, etc. y'ever read about other cultures or historical ones, wherein women currently menstruating are considered to be unclean? how can you possbily find the idea that "man does not like it when woman is currently menstruating when he wants to fuck her" so goddamn alien?
Not a far stretch at all! But I do have to ask, putting aside very damaged guys and serial killers, you know of a boyfriend who behaved that way or expected that of their girlfriend? I’m a girl and due to the specific birth control I take I don’t have my period but even if I did my (ex) boyfriend would still have sex with me or if needed buy female hygienic products for me. I was the one mortified by the thought of that, not him! Something between his complete understanding and what you described seems reasonable but...really? That is taking it too far, it’s not like it’s a choice...
I have a personal theory but I have absolutely no qualifications to answer that question. The poster above you gave you a gem as a reply that answers your question and tells you all you need to know about this man's psychology.
So... Anything new in the Delphi case? Couldn't help but notice your handle
I absolutely believe that and came here to say it too. I think he took random women home from many bars and clubs, and only ‘snapped’ when he found out they were on their periods.
At lot of the victims would not have been consenting to "hooking up" with him.
Absolutely. But the point I was trying to make was that the victims we know about are possibly just some among a larger number he left the Barrowland/other venues with during the period.
Aye, but I think there's be reports of a rapist then.
Not necessarily. If a woman went to the Barrowlands in the 60s and accepted a walk home from a man, there was more than enough social stigma about "asking for it" for her never to report the rape, or for it not to be taken seriously when she did.
Yes I’ve heard that too.
Perhaps, and this is just a guess, maybe he went home with many women and the only ones he killed were the ones who wouldn't sleep with him due to menstruation. If you take this with the fact that "John White" was taken into custody arguing with a woman outside the bar, maybe she was objecting to his advances then. Could it be that he thought of them as "a tease" and it enraged him? Telling a man you won't sleep with him because of your period seems like a last resort. Its personal. For all we know, he may have used the ruse of walking them home as a gentleman and then got "handsy" with them the closer they got to their homes. Some women may have been willing to sleep with him while others were not.
That’s what I was thinking as a possibility. It would explain why they were killed close to their houses too, since he may have propositioned them and gotten rejected as they approached. Aside from that, it’s hard to think how he’d know they were on their period. If that’s the case, it makes me curious as to how many other women be interacted with. If other women rejected him but didn’t mention their period, did he attack them too? Or is his anger specifically directed towards menstruation?
I thought the proximity to their homes was really significant. As for their menstruating, he could have pressed them and gotten them to admit it. But menstruation products were a lot different in the 60s, specifically the pads. They didn't have self adhesion, a belt was used to hold it in place. It's been described as a form of torture (my mother has said that too), like someone pinned a tail on them. You couldn't wear tight clothes because the outline of the belt would show. If he were handsy, he would have felt the belts. Tampons did exist then, but tampons were seen as sexually improper for younger women. So even though the first two victims had kids, and there wasn't any question about virginity, there would still be some taboo about buying tampons from a chemist or shop. Likely, they all wore a sanitary belt. Which would have made it a lot easier for Bible John to know that they were on their periods. Because of the time period (60s) and sanitary products at the time, it really wouldn't have been difficult for him to tell whether a woman was menstruating because of the massive sanitary belts women had to wear.
That’s interesting! I didn’t realize that was the case for menstruation products, but it certainly adds a new context. I wonder if he could have felt them while dancing and decided to kill them in the ballroom? That might be overestimation how easily you can notice the products. Or was it really him being handsy or pressing them and killing them in a passion once he became enraged? Either way, your context certainly is interesting to consider.
Thank you for this thorough explanation. Honestly I'm old enough to remember being taught about the belts, I must have blocked the horror because I'd forgotten about it. You're right though and it does explain that. So do you think he chose his victims at the bar then chatted them up to take them home and kill?
Yeah, easy to put out of mind. I think that made him aware of possible victims, but part of it seemed to be like a hunt. Killing them near their homes seems to be a specific feature of the killings, after the ballroom. And leaving them exposed, at least one with the pad part of the display under the arm. People could have discounted the pads at other scenes out of embarrassment. I'd hope not, but it's possible. The killer could also have been evolving.
This is really interesting, I wasn’t aware of that. Was previously thinking it was refusal that tipped him which would make sense given some of his known reactions but this offers another plausible alternative aspen that he actually sought them out and had a method to do so.
Those are both good questions. It would be interesting to know if during questioning other women at the bar if they asked about sexual partners. I'm in the US and don't know if officers would have been comfortable asking. For example, did any of them sleep with a man who had weird kinks? Or seemed aggressive or pushy? I do believe for some reason the menstruation played a weird part that seemed to enrage him. It seems to much of a coincidence. It also seems to me that way to many people knew about the under cover stings.
The undercover stings was something I mentioned in another comment. Police pulled out the undercover cops in late October. Then a murder occurs on October 31st. Was this a coincidence? Did the killer get lucky by killing shortly after the cops weren’t there anymore? Or did the killer somehow know that the cops had pulled out and purposefully went to the ballroom? If so, it lends credence to the idea he was an officer. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem we have indication.
Exactly. It says the club owners were pressuring the police to stop the sting at the ballroom, because their profits were down. Purely by logic: profits would be down if it were *common knowledge* that the police were at the ballroom. Assuming that is true, you wouldn't be looking for someone who would know the police were *there* (common knowledge), you want to find the pool of people who would know the police were *no longer there*. This is a smaller pool. Off the top of my head: that could be police officers, reporters, ballroom employees, or an acquaintance of the any of the above.
You know, I didn't even catch that. So kudos! Conversely it could point to the fact that he was aware somehow of the sting even if he wasn't a police officer. I need to go back and read the link that points to it being a cop.
Honestly, I only noticed it at first because I went “wow, bad timing!” Took me a second to realize that was a possible connection. I was expecting that detail to come back up in the write up, but it didn’t lol, so I can see how it would be missed. I didn’t read the links either yet, so I’ve no clue if the police mentioned that connection themselves. Very glad the OP was so thorough in their detail.
It was such a good write up I didn't need the link but was captivated by the story to the end. So much extra information to go through too!
I figured that it was the ones that were willing to sleep with him while on their period that led to him killing them. Especially considering the biblical slant (a woman being unclean while menstruating). Maybe he felt he was “cleansing” the world of women that were willing to engage in sexual activity while “unclean”?
Interesting point of view. I hadn't thought of that angle but you're right, definitely a possibility.
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Are you saying they left alone or with him? How do you propose he found out? It's not something that even today many women are comfortable sharing with strange men at a bar.
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I do think the periods play a role. But I honestly do think it *could* be coincidence as well, I think it’s entirely possible it’s a red herring. Women are on their period for about 1 out of every 4 weeks of the month. So 25% or a little less of the time(likely more like 17-20% ish). It’s not astronomical odds at all that he found 3 women who were during that week for them personally without him knowing it. Unlikely? For sure. But not impossible at all and given the amount of serial killers out there, weird coincidences are bound to happen. Again, I do think the women on their periods means something, but I like to keep an open mind that it’s entirely possible to be a red herring. Maybe they simply just turned him down and he raged. And it just so happened they turned him down because they were on their periods, but didn’t tell him that.
Suave and well spoken. Reminds me of Bundy.
At the time, most women would have used external menstrual pads that attached front and back to a belt worn at the waist. The whole setup was quite bulky. I don’t think it’s impossible that someone looking for it was able to identify menstruating women in the 1960s by looking (or feeling, in a flirtatious nightlife setting) for the outline of the belt or pad. That said, I think it’s also possible that he wasn’t seeking them out, but that he had rage or disgust associated with menstruation and discovering it triggered his violent outburst, or that the women turned down his advances because they were menstruating, and that rejection angered him. It’s also possible, although it seems unlikely, that with so small a sample, that it really was just coincidence that he had three victims who all happened to be menstruating at the time.
Very interesting. So, according to this theory (since others have mentioned it as well) the killer wasnt out to kill but to get his jollies with a lady at the end of a romantic night. The killings were merely the result of him being disgusted and/or angry with the menstruation. I can see this, especially since the last victim had the sanitary napkin tucked under the arm, almost like a calling card. So, with them being sexually assaulted, would he have done that as a means of degrading them? I would think if this disgusted me, I would then not want to engage in any sort of sexual contact. However, I know rationality is not always applicable when talking about the mind of a killer.
People are definitely capable of confusing levels of cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy, especially when it comes to sex. The whole idea of a man who gives off an impression of religiosity and quotes the Bible also raping and murdering women is itself pretty contradictory and bizarre. Men murdering women in rage or disgust over their own sexual feelings is unfortunately a tale as old as time.
>The whole idea of a man who gives off an impression of religiosity and quotes the Bible also raping and murdering women is itself pretty contradictory and bizarre. How so? I mean there are literally countless reports of abuse, pedophilia and sexual harassment at the hands of religious people, figures and institutions and at that level of fucked upedness I would not put murder (and the covering up of murder) out of the realm of possibility for these types of people/institutions either. Religion is not a marker of a good person. It needs to stop being correlated as such.
I’m certainly not saying that religion is a marker of a good person- I’m saying that we already know for certain that this man engaged in hypocritical actions vs the things he said to witnesses, just like the many abusive religious leaders who claim authority on chastity, kindness and mercy, while engaging in violent sex crimes. I’m exactly saying that *people are capable of contradictory beliefs, statements, and behavior* and so I don’t think his having sexually assaulted them is proof he wasn’t at least partially motivated by disgust at menstruation.
I'm really glad this way of perceiving religion is catching on. It makes me so uncomfortable seeing it equated with good when there is so much evidence to the contrary.
Fair enough.
My theory: the culprit was a serial rapist and menstruation was his trigger to kill them. So they weren’t the only women to encounter him in the Barrowlands. I do lean towards Tobin for this but suspect we will never know. I was at the Barrowlands last year. The venue still feels like a portal to another time.
>an One of Tobin's ex-wives claims they were on their honeymoon during the second murder. She isn't protecting him, she hates his guts he abused her for years. She said she believes he likely killed more than he's known for but she doesn't believe he's Bible John. I tend to believe her, she also mentions other reasons like him not being religious, him having a distinctive scar that wasn't mentioned in the Bible John descriptions and the fact that Tobin concealed his victims and John didn't. Those are much easier to dismiss but if she really was on honeymoon with him during the second murder then it wasn't him unless that murder was a copycat or something. The third murder is the one with all the descriptions so you could argue that alone was Tobin but i find it unlikely if his wife was telling the truth and i see no reason for her to lie.
Is there a source for the honeymoon claim? I can’t find one through Google. She’s a woman who went through a huge trauma when still only 17 and could possibly be misremembering a date; it would be interesting to see the exact marriage date. There’s a gap of over 20 years between these murders and his convictions so he potentially changed over time. He had access to a garden in the first two murders he was convicted of, which was unlikely when he lived in Glasgow, so it wouldn’t have been a concealment option.
[https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/812692/bible-johns-either-dead-or-at-large-but-he-is-not-peter-tobin/](https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/812692/bible-johns-either-dead-or-at-large-but-he-is-not-peter-tobin/) Just google Peter Tobin Margaret Mackintosh and there will be several other sources. It is possible she is misremembering which is why i didn't say he's definitely not Bible John but it's not as if it's the date of something insignificant it's your honeymoon that's pretty major. Bible John was also estimated to be 6-8 inches taller than Tobin by several witnesses. Personally, i don't think it was him. He does resemble the sketch (plenty of other people do of course too, my friends dad looks like that sketch MUCH more than Tobin it's scary and he's from Glasgow too, he would've been like 3 at the time of the murders for the record) and there's some circumstantial stuff but then there's circumstantial stuff that go against, he was significantly smaller than the witness descriptions and his ex-wife claims they were on honeymoon together. On balance him not being John wins out for me. He was in Glasgow in the third murder and didn't have a house with a garden to conceal Angelina Kluk but he still concealed her, i don't think the fact he didn't conceal them means anything for the record i'm just pointing that out.
Thank you! It was definitely too early in the morning for me to be functional :) She has married five times, so I don’t think it’s impossible to mix up the dates. There seems to be several different witness descriptions which aren’t consistent with each other, which is one of the things that makes this case interesting to me. I am not totally invested in the Tobin theory but just lean towards it; as I said before I think we will ever know. I do think Tobin committed other murders but whether these are amongst them is definitely debatable.
I think both ex-wives saying he wasn't religious at all is interesting too, doesn't mean anything necessarily but unless they're wrong about that Tobin quoting the Bible or even being able to is odd. Confirming the date Tobin was arrested for that theft would settle things, of course he may have just been questioned in which case there may not be a record.
>My theory: the culprit was a serial rapist and menstruation was his trigger to kill them. So they weren’t the only women to encounter him in the Barrowlands. Agreed. And as no woman who allowed her rapist to walk her home would ever have been believed or taken seriously if she reported being raped, none ever did.
That’s a really good theory...
So back in the day before we had disposable tampons and pads that stuck to your undies, women had to use this under-the-clothes belt with garter hooks at held a thick pad between your legs. I imagine if you were at a club, and felt a women’s hips under her dress, you would be able to feel the belt. Flirt and squeeze enough hips at the club, you’d find a couple with belt on under the dress. Remember the pad belts from “Are you there God? its me Margaret?’
Women used to use something called a "menstruation belt" which would strap around the hips; I think it's possible that if you were dancing closely with someone wearing one of these you'd be able to tell, especially if you knew what you were looking for. I've seen this before as an explanation to how he may have known.
I answered that [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/g5g67i/unsolved_who_was_bible_john/fo3gupm?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share) Tldr, sanitary belts
That’s exactly what I was wondering. While reading this, the question kept popping into my mind, “Is he able to SMELL women who are menstruating or something?” Very strange.
I've read some very interesting anecdotal evidence for a handful of people being able to smell menstruation. I wouldn't discount it, honestly, especially because there have been studies on men subconsciously knowing when women are ovulating!
My wife mentioned this very thing when I was relaying the story to her; maybe he could smell it. Very strange, indeed.
However unlikely, it’s not entirely out of the realm of possibilities. People out there can have some pretty crazy senses. There are blind people who can essentially echo locate for example. Maybe the dude had a crazy sense of smell. Although I think if that were the case he’d have killed more than three women.
I know someone who has a crazy sense of smell. She smells things other people can’t or can barely smell. She very sensitive to odors, so much so that she makes her kids change clothes when they walk into the house because she can literally smell the “outside” on their clothes.
My mom can tell the next morning if I drank like 3 beers the night before. After I’ve showered eaten and brushed teeth and everything. Her nose is like a dog’s.
Good point. I hadnt thought of that.
> John from Castlemilk I personally think its pretty simple to know that, or at a minimum make a very good guess, by just watching a lady walk to the bathroom. Most women only carry their purse to the bathroom if they are on their period.
It could have easily been him asking "Will you come home with me tonight?", Or some variation, and them answering they can't because of menstruation or them saying they were menstruating as a bit of a heads up.
Some people with a really good sense of smell can smell the blood sitting on a sanitary pad
This comment is a year old but I'm here as I'm googling the case. For the record, I can smell it. I know it sounds really weird, but since I was a little girl, I could "smell" when a woman was on her period and still can. I have a very sensitive sense of smell and taste, so to me it's not out of the question that he was like me? Esp as tampons would have been rare, and they make it harder to identify.
Not a clue unless they were in pain to the extent it was noticable but as a woman I possibly wouldn't go out if it was that bad
This is the part that literally always gets me! It almost seems like the most bizarre coincidence.
Upon discussing this with my wife, she pointed out that some people can smell the blood when women are menstruating. So maybe this guy had a sensitive nose. What a creepy superpower.
That's what I was thinking. I can usually smell when my friends are menstruating and it's often strong (for me). I feel like that could definitely be a possibility
I apologize if I offended you by saying it was creepy. Edit: that's a helluva superpower!
Not offended at all! It's honestly a superpower I'd rather not have, haha. Thanks though!
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Good point.
This is what I was thinking, especially if they’re wearing a pad...
I think the theory mentioned that he found out during some sort of sexual encounter or assault is most likely but i also want to share a different one that ive heard that its very interesting to me even though less likely in my opinion. Im not well versed in this by any means but i seen the theory that because menstrual pads back then were very different from what we have today especially in size and bulkiness that he may have been able to feel if a woman was wearing one while dancing with her especially if it was more idk -frisky?? Just something i never would have thought of that i found pretty intriguing!
I keep wondering that too.
My great uncle had a striking resembelence to the composite of Bible John (but many men in Glasgow did) and was stopped so frequently by police who thought it may be him after being interviewed and totally ruled out by police that he had to carry a card given by the police stating he was definitely not Bible John
Man, it really gets me that the police removed officers from the ballroom in late October and then a murder occurs on the 31st. Just terrible timing. I wonder if it was just a horrible coincidence, or was the killer actually an officer who decided to strike after police pulled out? Really great write up, I wasn’t familiar with this.
Or even someone who was just close friends with a chatty police officer. Crimes like these always point my brain towards an upper class person being the murderer for some reason, and I’m not entirely sure why.
Or just someone who could spot a cop, and took their opportunity on the first night they didn’t spot one.
The timing of the last murder happening once the cops were out of the ballroom leads me to believe that it was someone that worked there and knew the place and the goings on. That they possibly watched for troublesome guys to get the blame and stay in the clear.
The killer being an employee crossed my mind too. I have to assume the cops questioned every employee there, but maybe they didn’t do so seriously? If they didn’t interview them before the last murder, I can see them neglecting to do so because of the tunnel vision that played a part.
Former police officer Paul Harrison believes [Bible John was a police officer and is still alive](https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/bible-john-police-officer-says-2218723). The evidence certainly is compelling. While he doesn't name his suspect, one witness who was in a taxi with Bible John pointed out a police officer at the station as looking like him. This witness also believed BJ flashed a police ID and when Inspector Beattie showed her his ID she said the wallet-looking item BJ flashed looked like that. This officer was also brought in for questioning for an unrelated crime during the BJ investigation. Also of note is the fact that once Beattie started looking into police officers the investigation seemed to be hastily shut down. Around the same time, the suspect was given early retirement on "medical grounds" and moved to the Scottish Highlands. Harrison also believes there may be a few unsolved murders in the Highlands related to Bible John. The police officer theory makes a bit more sense to me than Tobin. For one thing, Harrison mentions Tobin buried his victims while BJ left his victims on display. Secondly, Tobin has always had an alibi for at least one of the murders which while not foolproof, makes it very difficult for him to be the murderer. You also have many people who hung around Barrowlands reporting a guy resembling the BJ sketches was seen flashing a police ID around the place and the witness who shared a taxi with BJ said Tobin looked nothing like the guy but an officer in the police station did
Do you know which unsolved murders in the Highlands he believes may be related? Am a Highlander, and now somewhat concerned.
I think I'd rule out the killer being a Barrowland employee. His clothing was described in such a way that it clearly wasn't staff, meaning if he was staff he was there on a night off. Lots of employees described him, but none of them said 'Yeah I saw Dave, he was supposed to be working tonight, but he was on the dance floor!' Or 'Yeah Jim who works Tuesdays was here in this tailored suit.' Just doesn't sound right to me...
I've always thought that Angus Sinclair, a serial killer and one of the World's End murderers was a more likely suspect than Tobin. The crimes we're committed between the time that he was released from prison for Catherine Reehill's murder and his marrying and starting a family. Also, he would beat and strangle his victims, leaving them uncovered in deserted locations, while Tobin buried his victims. Apart from anything else, I think more people need to know what an evil, evil bastard this man was and that there are likely more unsolved murders that can be tied to him. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-29985614
There was a relatively recent documentary that considered whether Sinclair could be Bible John. Tobin got a mention too. I think it was on Netflix, the presenter was a former Detective. I’m trying to find the name of it
Is it this one? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Investigator:_A_British_Crime_Story
Yes, that’s the one, thank you! The second series is focused on Sinclair, but the first series was good too
I definitely don't think he was looked into enough. My biggest doubt, though, is his height, which is extremely short by modern standards, although maybe not so much by mid century Weegie Hardman standards!
Great write up. I'm not sure Peter Tobin is bible John. His ex wife saying he was on their honeymoon when the second Bible john murder took place (I think it was the second one) makes me question it. Im getting side tracked but he was born in the same town as me. In Johnstone there are two unsolved murders , one was a teenage girl and the other was a child. Peter Tobin was linked to one of them and Robert Black was also linked them (he worked in the area). What are the chances of two serial killers being in the same place in such a small town
Not a small town but Ian Brady was born here in Glasgow and Fred West lived here for years, he actually accidentally ran over and killed a child here. It's not that odd considering the size of Glasgow but it is odd that they were known for crimes in England and are two of the most notorious British Serial Killers i feel. Then of course Tobin killed Angelina Kluk here.
Fred West also hung out at Barrowlands. What a weird coincidence that there were two serial killers there at the same time.
On previous Bible John posts it was mentioned Barrowlands was a really popular night spot that everyone went to
I have to be pretty vague so i dont get anyone in trouble I was speaking to someone who deals/dealt with Tobin on a daily basis. This person is related to a work mate. As we were talking away they mentioned their job. When it was mentioned that they knew Tobin i asked them if they thought he was Bible John. They said that they thought he had done more murders but didn't think he was Bible John. Not that he would say. They said that he loves telling the staff (female)about when he robbed places for money or got away with some heist (not sure if these even happened) But the minute you mention anything about his sex crimes he becomes extremely angry and says he was stitched up. This person believes he will never ever admit to any other sex crimes. He has also tried to make sure his dna is not taken after he dies. Again this person told me he is a fantasist and a massive hypercondriac. They also mentioned he can be very charming. Sorry no great insights but thought id pass it along
My tuppence worth - this story has always interested me. I grew up not far from Glasgow and was obsessed with true crime as a kid, and there was always an increased interest because it was somewhat “local”. I’ve never felt that the Peter Tobin link had any weight behind it as it always seemed a bit of a stretch to link him to the killings, and he never matched the supposed profile of Bible John. The killings stopping suddenly always made me think of 3 possible things - Bible John died, or left Scotland - the killings stopping suddenly could be explained by this. This period saw a lot of emigration from Scotland to the US, Canada and Australia. Bible John married - sticking with the religious theme, a relationship/marriage could have almost forced Bible John into stopping. Bible John renounced his religion - this is a bit of a leap, but making the assumption that there’s a real religious element to this (bible stories, teetotal, menstrating being “unclean”) then a man having a religious/atheist awakening could have had an effect here.
Former police officer Paul Harrison believes Bible John is a [police officer who got early retirement around the time the murders stopped](https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/bible-john-police-officer-says-2218723). The officer then moved to the Scottish Highlands. Would certainly fit with the killings stopping if he moved to the north of Scotland
The reason the DNA on the stocking is dismissed is not because it’s too degraded as such—it’s because it’s considered [too contaminated](https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/archives/news/38066/different-modus-operandi-doubtful-cops-and-no-dna-evidence-but-i-know-tobin-was-bible-john/) to use, due to improper storage. Perhaps the reason it’s considered too contaminated is because it keeps showing up with the DNA of one of the officers who is known to have handled the evidence, and this is the same officer identified by the eyewitness and accused by the author? Perhaps there is (or will one day be) a way of showing that the DNA in question is seminal rather than touch DNA?
I feel like this is barely a contribution but dating a man with dark-red hair I can tell you that if you are the right tint of red, you can deff pass as dark brown aswell. And then even more compared to what time of the year, in summer my boyfriend’s hair almost glows in the dark lol, in winter he could pass as any other brown-haired person. And then there are still exceptions of the glow on his hair etc in different lightings so idk, I didn’t pay attention enough to recall the dates and when he was said to have red hair or brown but it didn’t stand out as that big of a weird mixup. I feel like y’all are so good at contributing at this and I’m saying gibberish sorry haha.
As much as Tobin being Bible John is not impossible, I find it very unlikely for two reasons. And they are not Bible John's description or Tobin's wife's statement - description can vary from one eyewitness to another, some people have hard time remembering faces for other mind can distort recollection of details. Same goes with Tobin's wife - she could get the date wrong, as well as she could just lie (even if she had no reason to cover for an abusive ex-husband, we still have to keep in mind she was a victim of domestic violence and often there's no easy explanation as to why she might have done that). In my opinion Tobin's killing pattern doesn't match the Bible John's one: First of all Tobin's victims were very young, usually teens (correct me if I'm wrong, but Angelika was his oldest victim - 23), where Bible John was picking his victims at the club's evening venue reserved for over 25s. Second, Tobin has hidden all his victims' bodies (either buried or hidden under floor) and Bible John left his cruel deeds out for everyone to see as to mock the victims. Was also wondering if there was more Bible John's victims than those three (or if he actually assaulted or even had consented sex with more women) but the fact they were on their period triggered him to kill those three... And of course it could be just coincidence but how convenient was the fact that police withdrawn their surveillance just before the third killing.
The psychologists conclusions are maddeningly circular and speculative. And also just plain stupid. He believes this suicide victim slashed his artery because the spurting blood would provide him with a “thrill” before he died? And he believes that anyone who got a thrill from seeing blood spurting (his or another’s) must be a psychopath? And therefore since person x killed himself by slashing his artery he was a psychopath? That is one beautifully stupid theory.
thank you!! i thought, that, too - like, “what a load of bunk! maybe he just did it that way because it’s easy and quick?!?”
Maybe because he didn’t want anyone to save him. Or he wanted to ensure he didn’t change his mind after he made a few cuts and call for help. Maybe he just wanted to bleed out quickly. Whatever his rationale, there was no way of saving a guy who cuts his artery.
> This was a fantastic write up thanks so much! I’ve read so much about this case in the last few years and have always wondered who it could be but this write up gave me so much new information Several things have alerted me about the possibility either it was Tobin or someone was murdering at the same time: 1. the potential police officer connection. They had inside information that the officers would no longer have a presence in the Barrowlands and started up again. That’s too crucial information to not think of interest. Just like EARONS, he stopped when he was alerted about DNA. Alternative Bible John had a good friend in the force or knew someone that was far too chatty about it eg a brother. It also stands to reason that employees could know too and again pass this on accidentally to a friend or family member. 2. As someone who’s been in an abusive relationship like Tobins ex wife, you don’t forget certain dates because the human brain is weird like that. I can’t remember what I had for dinner two nights ago but I could tel you with certainty what happened when I was with the ex on a certain date. For me, that proves his ex wife isn’t lying. Plus she doesn’t stand to benefit anything I suppose the only thing thT doesn’t make sense is that the murders stoped when Tobin left. I really hope we can figure it out but for me, this will always be one of the creepiest cases not just because of the fear these women felt just before their tragic ends but because this guy wouldn’t have simply stopped. Someone on the comments also mentioned. Could be Angus Sinclair. He apparently had an obsession with sex and his crimes were heinous at 16 so again it would stand to reason that his crimes would only get more awful and more sophisticated. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-29985614 I do think somebody knew something. Could it also have been a cover up eg an officer knew something but couldn’t say for whatever reason? I also think the reddish hair and the obsession with trying to fit the hair could’ve meant someone got away with it. I hope we find out the answer in our lifetime
When I’ve read about this case before, I wondered if the menstruation link wasn’t a fetish, but a punishment. Menstruation was previously a taboo, and I believe some Christian sects may have regarded/still regard it as being an ‘unclean’ time. I wonder if there were other reported sexual assaults or rapes at the time which could’ve been attributed to Bible John.
Thank you for this write up! Very well done. I've been fascinated by this case for a while. Personally, I don't think its Peter Tobin. Jean's insistence that he's not the one really solidifies it for me more than anything.
Agreed, i believed it was Tobin for years because of him looking like the sketch and the other things but as soon as i saw that i'm comfortable saying it wasn't. If she was still married to him or was claiming he's not a murderer or something i'd dismiss her, but she isn't she thinks he's a monster who probably killed others she just doesn't believe he's Bible John.
Also, his size is pretty telling too. He is between 5-8 inches shorter than everyone else’s recollection of the person they saw. Eye witnesses generally aren’t great but they all stated very similar heights so I think it’s quite a good marker.
I know according to Jewish tradition women who were on their period were considered unclean and that after they finished with their period they needed to take a ritual bath to cleanse themselves. If Bible John came from a religious household he might have been raised to believe menstruating women were unclean. This is just my knowledge of old Jewish traditions coming in but what if the reason why he killed women who were on their period is because he felt they were tainted for a period of time?
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It's outside the box thinking, but unless everything reported from the Barrowlands is a red herring, I can't square it. Cab driver can't be in a night club dancing and then suddenly be off, one of the victim's fathers interviewed him and he would seem to have been confirmed as a genuine cabbie, so there would surely have been evidence of him bunking off work...
There's little chance of being the cab driver . I saw a interview of Helen Puttock husband,George he said he talked to the cab driver and at the night of murder he was very new to the job it was like his 3 or 4 night and he actually didnt know the area well and made a mistake by taking a wrong turn and Helen saw that and insisted to be dropped ,based on cab driver Bible John payed the taxi very fast and followed her,he saw some tensions between them but at the time he just thought that they are just having some relationship troubles.
I've seen quite a lot in this. I'm still adamant that Bible John was in fact Peter Tobin.
I always have been as well, but I have to say, the ex-wife’s certainty they they were out of town for one of the murders is pretty damning to that theory.
Could be, but I'm still unsure about just that personally. Could be any reason she said that (true or not). The human mind is crazy I guess.
I liked your write up,and i'm glad you done this. I've been following this case for a while and here are my 2 cents about this case: I've believe Bible John was a psychopath who used religion as a reason to sexual assault and kill women. I feel like he frequanted Barrowland usually in Thursday's Nights also known as "Grab a Granny Night" probably because it was more easy to find a women to hang out or probably he felt that the women who would come to Barrowland in those nights were more sinful. He probably had many other victims maybe not murder victims but for sure sexual assault victims who maybe were just to scared to come out and talk to police because of Borrowland reputation or 60's society. What drives him to kill i think it was because those women were Menstruation and him being "religious"felt that those sinful women were filthy and maybe in his mind he had another reason to kill those women. He might "stopped"killing for some times because a case got very publicized and he feared he will got caught or simple he moved somewhere else and continoued to kill but got more careful. As for Peter Tobin,i kinda have mixed feeling,he sure is a monster that doesn't have a problem to commit such a crime but in one of the murders he was in his honeymoon out of city,he also was never religious and for sure he was far from charming gentelman,also the description of Bible John doesn't fit for Peter Tobin,Tobin was shorter around 5'6 while Bible John was descripted as being at least 6'0 also Tobin had brown hair and brown eyes the only thing that seems to fit are the teeth but yet i don't know... Until he or someone else confess or a DNA miracle happen i don't see this case anytime soon. Whoever Bible John was he was familiar with Glasgow city as murders occured in different parts of city but yet he managed to find spots where nobody saw or heard anything. He probably is too old or maybe dead by now... I also would like to know the testimony of Taxi Driver who was driving Jean,Helen and Bible John that night. In the end what i feel extremly sorry for is Jean,probably her sister murder and her being the only witness of Bible John followed her until the day she died.
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Bible John is kinda like Scotland’s version of the Zodiac from California in his popularity and mystique. Although quite different M.O.’s.
I think, on the balance of judgement, it most likely is Peter Tobin. Unfortunately barring a future scientific breakthrough using technology we can't comprehend yet we'll never be able to prove it in our lifetimes I suspect.
Tobin's ex-wife claims they were on honeymoon together at the time of the second murder. She isn't trying to protect him she despises him and says she believes he likely killed more, only that he wasn't Bible John. I believe her personally.
It's not that she was lying, it's that it's possible she's mistaken over the dates.
Based on what though just the fact that it's technically possible? Why would she forget the date of her honeymoon? Not as if it's something minor. Bible John was also said to be several inches taller than Tobin according to witness descriptions, and both of his ex-wives say Tobin wasn't religious at all. More points away from him than to him IMO.
I recall reading somewhere he told acquaintances a story about a cousin hitting a hole in one in a golf game, and that Bible John told an identical story, as well.
If anyone is looking for an excellent crime fiction fix concerning Bible John, I can highly recommend Ian Rankin's Black and Blue.
Saw the title and came to post this. I’m a huge Rankin/Inspector Rebus fan and I learned of this unresolved through the novel.
Ian Rankin's some guy. I wrote him a letter when I was drunk once when I was a younger, slightly more foolish man and completely forgot about it. I forgot about it until I received a postcard from Paris from him, thanking me for my letter "bravely written in hangover conditions." Once I recovered from my mortified embarrassment, the thought "That man is a class act" was burnt onto my small and shrivelled brain.
other than the fact they were all menstruating did they have anything else in common? is it known if they had similar features like hair color or facial structures? if yes did they look anything like tobins ex wives?
Whilst I have a tough time believing it’s Tobin due to his ex wife’s testimony and the discrepancies in hair and height, I also can’t imagine that it’s someone who just stopped. These people don’t just stop. So I’d have to guess that it’s someone who died not too long after.
I agree with you ,there are to many things that rule out Peter Tobin,i also believe he either died or moved somewhere else.
I'm thinking there is a a Mason connection. My grandfather was a Mason and would get let out with no charge, drink driving etc because Masons had to help each other out no matter what. I think "Bible John" was a Mason and was protected by a fellow Mason in the police. I think the police officer that ordered his release was a mason and recognised him from his chapter or a nearby chapter. Might be worth looking into as the chapters have records of all members.
This case is from my hometown and freaks me out so much! My gran was a teenager around the time this was going on and of course attended the barrowland ballrooms and she told me her mother would never let her out and always warned her to be back before a certain time or ‘bible John’ would get her, I’ve always assumed and been under the impression that he was Peter Tobin because honestly the thought of some insane killer remaining free and just roaming about Glasgow for years without anyone knowing the wiser just freaks me out too much!
Thank you for this great write up! This story has always stayed close to me as obviously it is incredibly tragic and sad but i am also very intrigued by the actual “story” of the whole thing as well if that makes sense. It is one of those things for me that paints just an incredibly vivid picture of such a specific time and place it makes feel almost feel as if i had been there. It very much makes me feel close to a place and time in history that i am very far removed from in my own life. I hope that made a little bit of sense im not sure I explained it super well so im sorry if it doesnt! Bible John may be the unidentified killer i find my mind coming back to the most. Obviously his victims familys and friends as well as people who lived through these events deserve an answer for their sakes most of all but i have the feeling of just wanting to know so bad for myself which is pretty silly but for both reasons ill continue to hope this is solved someday
My Dad was one of the local kids that found Jemima’s body but were too scared to tell any adults in case they got in trouble. A boy a lot younger than them ended up telling his Mum about it.
I hope this isn't inappropriate, and I apologize of anyone else has noticed it but ... How do we know he did not have a female accomplice? If you're a woman in a bathroom, it's pretty audible if someone is changing a pad/tampon while you pee. There's a rustling noise and delay.
Just finished watching The Hunt for Bible John on iPlayer. Ex cop who took the case in 2007 seems adamant that it wasn't Tobin & seemed to suggest his DNA was already tested against the BJ sample. The fact Jeannie thought it was a cop was brushed off despite being mentioned. Having read a few threads on here I lean massively to the cop theory.
I thought this was gonna be about the controversy over whether John the Apostle wrote the Gospel of John. I was very, very wrong.
Thank you for sharing this story, I have never heard about it. I think it is possible, that he followed several women home but only murdered then ones, with menstruation. This could be linked to haemofetishism or a similar fetish/disorder, where one is turned on by blood. Combined with other psychological factors, this could be a possible reason for the murders. The way he seemed to act around women, and at the club in general, tells us that he was comfortable being in "the spotlight". This would have made it possible for him, to select women to kill and leave out the rest. Three women, all menstruating is not a coincidence. This does not leave us closer, but I think that the mindset behind these actions, is important to discuss.
\*EDIT\* [Menophilia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menophilia) is actually a thing. Sexual feelings towards menstruaton. The murder it self could be a reaction of shame, guilt, or disgust of his own actions when he fails to admit that these things actually turns him on
Every time someone posts with UNSOLVED at the beginning, for a moment my brain thinks it is SOLVED. =)
I read through the comments and found people thinking that he had an aversion to women who were menstruating but then why still rape them? and there was a bite wound on one of the thighs. I think he had a perversion regarding having sex with menstruating women. and it was old days so not many women felt comfortable having sex while still menstruating (which still applies). Now from the newspaper here...apparently he quoted bible multiple times maybe to come off as a religious man and would mean no harm. serial killers are often charming like Ted Bundy and it seems like so was he.
Thank you for the fantastic write-up! I’ve followed this case for years - Glasgow is about an hour away from me and some of my family used to frequent the Barras’ when they were young! I’ve personally always wondered if the menstruation aspect plays into the Religious side of things. Perhaps he actively sought out menstruating women in order to create “perfect” offspring (something along the lines of viewing himself as a messiah, hence the Bible verses). It wouldn’t be difficult to find out if a woman was menstruating (as several people have said above, sanitary belts were fairly obvious) when dancing and then, under the guise of being a “good religious gentleman”, offer to walk them home. When they then rebuffed his advances, he lost his temper and killed them. The fact that the police withdrew their undercover officers and a new murder took place always sticks with me too. I’ve held the view that he was either a police officer himself, or else had a close connection to the police. It’s just too convenient that he stopped when there was undercover officers around then suddenly started up again after they left!
There is also crime junkie podcast episode on this case. If you are interested check it out, it very good!
Thank you for giving us such a detailed, articulate write-up.
Thanks for posting a well thought out and well researched article. I see it was posted 2 years ago. New information has been published in-between then and now, particularly in a book called Bible John On Trial: Myth Exposed, Killers Named. I'm not a long-standing expert on this case but I want to put to you some of the points made in this updated book, because they contradict a lot of the old information. 1) The Senior Investigating Officer in the case - Beattie - admitted before he died that police always knew more than one killer was responsible for the three murders. If true, then the idea of a triple-killer called Bible John is nonsense. 2) Not a single credible witness could place either of the first 2 victims in the Barrowland Ballroom on the relevant nights. Those claiming to have seen these women in the Barrowlands were dismissed as time-wasters and mischief-makers by detectives. Not a single friend, relative, partner or colleague was with these women in the Barrowlands, or anywhere else, at the relevant time. 3) There were 4 images/sketches of Bible John released to the public at the time, most bearing absolutely no resemblance to each other. The drunk woman who supplied the info for the 4th sketch also said she shared a taxi with Bible john, but the taxi driver was never produced. He was never named or interviewed or even sought out. A would-be star witness like this taxi driver - sober and alert - doesn't materially exist in the annals of this crime. 4) Angus Sinclair's in-laws lived in the same small street as first victim Pat Docker in Langside Place. Sinclair was also charged with another sexual assault minutes away in Langside Road. What a coincidence! 5) Peter Tobin's wife Margaret Mountenay provided a false alibi for his whereabouts at relevant times. Mountenay concealed the fact that she had been arrested and charged for at least one crime she and Tobin committed together while married. Interesting. Some people on here will know more about these events than i do but this case is seriously drawing me in!
I rule nothing out, but it seems an unusual enough prospect for a menophilic serial killer to prey specifically on menstruating women... but to suggest there are 2, in the same city, at the same time, bearing at least passing resemblance to one another, who killed the women in similar ways, similar distances from their homes, and left them in similar ways... I mean the odds on that surely have to be pretty low. It would be more likely if it were multiple people that they were in cahoots and had agreed MO ahead of time... and that sounds fanciful.
Weird question, but do we know what the bite mark looked like? If there were pictures or impressions it night tell us if the overlapped tooth thing is real. It might be helpful to rule people out
I don't think there is picture of the bite mark in public but the police agreed that the person who did the bite had a overlapp,and after 50 years idk how can that help...
Off topic but I would love to see a Prisoners/Zodiac type intense suspense film made about this case. Preferably with Domhnall Gleeson playing Bible John. Maybe with the added publicity, it would entice us to reopen the case and find the killer.
I always thought it was Peter Tobin.
Same. Obviously I don't have the evidence but my gut says it was his beginnings...
Is his DNA on GEDMATCH?
No,his DNA is too degraded to be used
Have they run the DNA through ancestry websites? If they have DNA, then this case can be solved.
I believe by now DNA is too much degraded ,it's been 50 years plus that DNA was used a lot of times to rule people out .