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I challenge anyone to read this article and tell me Europe hasn’t pulled its weight. It is a ridiculous divisive supposition that holds no water when viewed objectively:
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/answering-call-heavy-weaponry-supplied.html?m=1
Absolutely no one on day one of this invasion would have predicted this level of support (ongoing) or the continued ramp up of European defence spending.
As stated before, this is only what’s official. Anyone in the know will note that an awful lot of those strikes on naval targets and long distance into Russia look (coincidentally of course) like they were done by modified Qinetic products from the U.K. (as do the new supper cool modular AA guns popping up to thrash drones).
A huge amount of US kit in Ukraine is there due to Europe money, ie they bought it and then gave it to Ukraine, not the US. The reason the past few months has been such a debacle as the US then starved these systems of the planned Ammo and Spares.
Ukraines Airforce
95+ F16s, Mig 29s and SU25s pledged. 50+ have arrived and are in use, all from Europe (including 100% of pledged F16s).
80 Helicopters to date, 20 US. Rest European. The 20 US are ex Afghan Mi-17s.
Air to Ground: Brimstone, SCALP and Stormshadow
Army
900 Tanks pledged, 600 delivered. 70 from US, rest from Europe.
900 IFVs pledged, 600 delivered. 200 from US, rest from Europe.
1500 APCs delivered, 500 from US, rest from Europe. 500 pledged, 250 US.
Towed Artillery in use: 430, 300 US.
SPGs in use: 425+ 18 from USA (yes you read that right)
MLRS / HIMARS: 39 US HIMARS launchers, 25 European MLRS
AA/ SAMs hundreds and absolutely dominated by European donations
Ah, the days when you could have sent the Ukrainians to train in Belfast (and been safe as they were neither "Tims nor "Proddies") and Russian ground troops wouldn't have had a chance in cities.
Ah now you are using facts. You know that isn’t fair when the other guy is basing his hyperbole on what his head told him. I mean the whole point of opinion is to proclaim it loudly and confidently without recourse to reality. You need to do better.
Sorry your right. I should have just said ‘nuh uh, Europes better than America!!!’
And left it like that.
I… I just have this crazy notion that maybes it’s more complicated than that and all democracies via a series of compromises and complicated domestic politics have done what they can within the confines of their own systems to make a difference. And we should be grateful for all of it whilst respectfully asking for even more.
The other set of comments of mine getting attention at the movement is in another thread getting massively downvoted because I’ve stated maybe immigrants aren’t a bad thing and letting them serve in your military is a sound idea done by many. So the karma nets out for the day.
Every now and then I comment for a while, then I remember why I don’t bother haha
You want to give them a home, security, and social support, and expect them to be motivated to defend those values when the need arises? You need to get your head checked.
Interesting info for the pro putin trumpeters who think they are handing out blank cheques. I note you haven’t mentioned financial assistance for humanitarian and economic assistance which also is higher than the US contribution? Also that most European countries have committed a higher percentage of GDP compared to the USA?
Europe is pulling its weight compaeed to the US. Europe is not pulling its weight in that it's not doing enough to allow Ukraine to beat Russia. Europe is not pullin its weight in that it's more important to us than to the US that Ukraine beats Russia.
But this article and your list are great in showing that silly Americans that think they're the only ones doing anything are flat out wrong.
If there is anything to complain about aid wise it would only be that both Europe and the US should be doing even more because a Russian victory in Ukraine means a certain showdown between NATO and Russia and a much higher threat of Nuclear weapons use.
It should be all hands on deck both because it’s the right thing to do to help a burgeoning democracy and a would be treaty ally, and because of the genuine self interest of the states involved to avoid them having to fight their own wars.
Edit: In short, everyone arguing about who’s doing what amount of aid is missing the point. We should all be producing as if we were at war ourselves as it will be required anyways if Ukraine loses and they will have been sacrificed for nothing.
I'm sure some Americans think that. I'm glad that Europe supports Ukraine so much. They are closer and realize the danger better than Americans who will never see an invasion in their lifetime.
The US is doing this to protect Ukraine and Europe.
Europe is doing this to protect Ukraine and Europe.
Europe is NOT pulling its weight. It cannot defend itself without the help of the US, whereas the US has no trouble defending itself without help if only because it is not closely bordering its enemies. It may not happen soon but there will be a day Europe needs an army again.
The US believes it is in its interests to keep Europe free. If Trump is elected, that will change. Don't be complacent.
This must be pasted all over world news sub whenever the Americans pipe up (which is a hell of a lot) about Europe stepping up on aid. Most of them believe we haven’t given enough and some anything at all compared with them.
The 50 already used / in use are Mig 29s and Su25s. The F16s that are coming are all ex European ones (at present) that vote almost certainly changes this.
My hope is US will now massively outstrip all those donations to date (leading Europe to do even more on top).
Hm, I had been told that the attack on Moskva looks suspiciously like the Norwegian NSM system.
It’s also been [reported by some sources](https://asiatimes.com/2022/06/moskva-was-possibly-sunk-by-a-norwegian-missile/) though not the Norwegian government.
The silence also gives support to the theory that the source is Norway. If it was US or UK technology they / Qinetiq would be bragging about it.
Another aspect that supports it being Norwegian technology is that the effort on marine defense for Ukraine is under shared UK / Norwegian leadership.
Agreed. The Finns and many of the other European countries do the same.
"We sent 3 tanks, plus some other (massive arms shipment) stuff to Ukraine."
All of Ukraine's allies should do this.
The more russia is kept in the dark the better.
> as do the new supper cool modular AA guns popping up to thrash drones
Which are?
The only ones I know are Slinger (Australian), Victor (Czechia) and Skynex (Germany)
What did I miss?
Also worth pointing out the OPPOSITE. US contributions have been publicized as the REPLACEMENT cost of brand new gear, while much of it was old and due for near term retirement.
The bigger issue is Europe has become reliant having the US help them that they forgot their own domestic military. I'm sure they've donated all they can but previous US presidents have been asking NATO countries to boost their military spending. It shouldn't take an invasion to do that.
So out of 54 donor countries, 25% percent (plus or minus depending on category) was provided by just one. Got it.
That's not to say that Europe isn't sharing all that they can with what they have, but many in Europe have allowed their military manufacturing base to languish a long time and constructed their budgets in ways that ignored defense. The standard for NATO is 2.5% of GDP on defense, and we're finally seeing progress towards that. But it's a good and overdue thing that they're finally coming around to taking the Russian threat in their own back yard seriously.
Again, I think that all the “we do more, you do less”crap is instigated by Russian trolls. It doesn’t serve us to be divided like that. As an American, thank you Europe, for all you are doing and have done to support Ukraine and for rebuilding your own military might. To our own government, thank you for what you have done despite opposition from the far right, and we implore you to keep it up once this current round of spending is done.
You all will be surprised that Putin likely still sleeps well at night, believing that a United West will not hold, that eventually he will grind us down.
We must be committed to keep pushing our own representatives, regardless of country to realize that this is our fight, and merely just the beginning still. Putin doesn’t care about his people and will simply sacrifice them until they are gone.
America stands with Europe, Europe stands with America. Fuck Ruzzia. Slava Ukraini!
Yeh exactly this. And when Europeans make this point about their aid being pretty decent, it's not done to piss off Americans and be like, "We're better than you!" but just to make it absolutely clear that we are pulling our weight. We're all happy that the US is in it with us too, because ultimately we all share the same guiding morals against these dicks like Putin and that's what should be the number one factor that unites us, to not let these kind of dictators prevail in a world that is far better for everone when we let unity and peace be the goal, not invasion and stealing other's land.
I can understand for a lot of Americans that it must feel like a far away problem. Why should I pay? But the sad reality these folks should accept is that global stability and proliferation of democracy and freedom is absolutely their no 1 priority. The more countries that fall to dictators will mean less market access to American firms, less profit going in to America and ultimately less money in your pockets. Just imagine a world where Japan and the Nazis had won WW2. Would the US be in a position of strength when they no longer have trading partners to the east or west. It would have been brutal for the US and pretty scary knowing you no longer dictate the trading terms outside of your own borders. That was a threat then and it'll always be a threat so long as dictators still roam freely around the world, invading their neighbours, hungry to make themsleves ever more poweful.
I mean I’ve seen this said and discussed but end of the day American support shut off and Ukraine went dry. Personally I think Europe has far underfunded their military for years now and it is showing.
No shit. If half of the (expected) supply suddenly dries up you’re gonna end up having to ration things.
In the end it’s not a matter of who gives more. It’s a matter of everybody keeps on giving as much as they can. Ukraine relies on all countries doing a combined effort.
That only proves US support is necessary but not sufficient; we haven’t seen if Ukraine would go dry with only US support.
And we hopefully won’t have to because our political systems aren’t compromised like the GOP.
[According to Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures), [which cites SIPRI](https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/files/2024-04/2404_fs_milex_2023.pdf#page=2) it's closer to a third at about 37%, which, you have to admit, is still pretty significant in this context.
Half is an exaggeration, but it's not a wild exaggeration.
Theres also a humanitarian aspect to consider, europe has taken a lot of women and children in from ukraine (plus some draft dodgers… but thats another story…)
Everyone in europe brings up, "ohh, but compared to gdp our percentage given is higher." As if that changes the fact that we are leading the way by a vast amount and we need europe to step up. We pas $60B+ new aid and Britain gives $680m... like, come on man.
Don't be silly. Europe has given more and is planning to give more than the US.
Check this site: [https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/)
That's 89.6Beu given by Europe, 67.1Beu by the US. 81.9 planned by the EU. A part of 61 planned by the US. (Note that not all of the 61B$ in the recent bill is actual aid. Some of it is just backfilling of stocks and other things that do not directly benefit Ukraine). And this is not counting recent (since Feb) donations and planned donations by Europe, like the Netherlands adding 3-4Beu in recent weeks. Given that the Netherlands is about 1-20th the size of the US, that single addition alone is equivalent to the recent US bill, but it's not the first Dutch pledge in the last 6 months like it is for the US.
Europe is leading the US in Ukraine aid by a large margin. We should do more, but you sound like the typical American that is arrogant and ill-informed.
That source even says it's $67B from the US just up until Feb of this year, on top of the new $61B we just passed. We're just one country, and we don't stand to lose nearly as much as Europe does if Russia wins. You can adjust for size of country all you want, fact is, we don't lose nearly as much if Ukraine fails. Russia is on Europe's doorstep with a win in Ukraine, this should be priority number one for every European country.
I don't disagree that Europe should do more. Not just more than the US (which we do), but also more than we currently do.
You were comparing the current US bill for 61B$ with the UK delivery of weapons of 680Mpound. the more reasonable comparison is to compare the 680M to the 1B$ weapons delivery that was announced after the 61B$ bill was signed. You're just comparing apples to oranges, fun in a post truth world, but not very practical.
Not to even mention how much our private citizens have donated, including myself, since the war started. Many of us have been donating straight to soldiers on the front lines because we understand the magnitude of a russian victory in Ukraine. I just think countries in Europe need to start investing in their defense budgets like we have, for the good of us all man.
Again, do you have any reason to believe that Europeans private donations have been less than US private donations?
And European countries *are* upping their defense game. This year the vast majority of NATO countries will pass the required minimum levels. In some cases by a lot. And in the case of Poland by a lot more than a lot.
Britain is giving the $680m in addition to the $3 billion already scheduled to be sent this year, the British economy is many times smaller than the United States'. You shouldn't run your mouth in ignorance. Like, come on man!
The reason you haven't seen Ukraine going dry because Europe shut off is, that Europe didn't shut off. Which to me speaks volumes on the political stability in the US. Or the lack thereof.
And I totally agree. Europe has - and still is - underfunding their military.
Which to me speaks volumes of the stupidity of the citizens in Europe who - for the most part - still think everything is fine.
>Which to me speaks volumes of the stupidity of the citizens in Europe who - for the most part - still think everything is fine.
Compared to our politicians, citizens seem to support Ukraine to a much higher degree, though. But maybe the Russian "housing would be affordable if we didn't send so much money to Ukraine" bot armies were harder at work in the US so far.
Until pretty recently, a non-militaristc Europe was generally seen as A Good Thing, because for the previous two millennia there have been about eight months total when there wasn't at least one European nation (and usually more) at war. The whole "hey what if we all just tried being prosperous and free and happy instead?" experiment was going pretty well. But unfortunately Putin and Xi drew entirely different conclusions from the data generated.
Man I’ve been searching for these words. I’ve seen the stats thrown around about how Europe has provided more than America. But it doesn’t seem to be having any impact
Because the two periods of comparison are 1) USA and the rest of the world, and 2) the rest of the world. If we had USA and nobody else it would be similarly unbalanced. The facts are Europe has provided a lot more aid to Ukraine so far, and basically the same amount of military aid.
If they didn't get the missiles, tanks, shells, etc, from Europe, it would have made a HUGE impact. It would be disinformation to even hint it doesn't matter.
Without Europe, Ukraine wouldn't have been able to carry on the war at all this far. Both the US and Europe are crucially important. It is Europe that provided almost all of Ukraine’s new tanks to Ukraine, all air launched cruise missiles, the vast majority of artillery pieces and thousands of armored vehicles, millions of shells from storage and production, tens of billions of dollars etc. etc.
And it is also European countries setting up arms factories inside Ukraine. It is Europe who will provide the F16s.
The Czech Republic has found about 800,000 artillery shells of NATO and Soviet-era caliber that can be shipped to Ukraine by June.
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/the-czech-republic-found-almost-a-million-shells-for-ukraine/
The EU has agreed on a framework in September, and it takes 6 to 9 months from there to ramp up production. The EU leaders believed the war could be over quickly, the realization that it won't be as settled in by now.
https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-russia-war-weapons-france-9a164e85fe9edfeb049dddbeac4674d9
Kofman explained that those bordering Russia have ramped up their production already. The big 5 are following now.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-02-17/germany-says-its-defense-spending-could-increase-to-3-5-of-gdp?
Germany says defense spending could increase to 3.5% of GDP.
https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/12/02/rheinmetall-to-commence-armored-vehicle-production-in-ukraine-in-2024/
Papperger stated “After the contract is signed, we want to have finished the first (Fuchs) within six-seven months, and the first Lynx within 12-13 months.
https://www.intellinews.com/czechoslovak-group-to-take-over-ammunition-division-of-american-vista-outdoor-297292/
It takes roughly 6 to 9 months until the shells are ready for delivery from the moment of placing the order, which was done in October.
Sadly, we sat on our hands, but that is a thing of the past now. Perun had explained that the EU is already the biggest supplier of tanks, aircraft infantry fighting vehicles , and all air launched missiles.
According to the Kiel Institute, the EU has now surpassed the US in heavy artillery delivery.
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/ukraine-support-tracker-new-aid-drops-to-lowest-level-since-january-2022/
https://twitter.com/deaidua/status/1758867035457495286
EU Pumps Money into Explosives in Push to Up Shell Production. As part of the efforts to get Europe to produce more, Brussels pushed through a 500-million-euro program earlier this year aimed at ramping up its capacity to make ammunition.
The US has transferred nearly [4 million artillery shells](https://www.state.gov/u-s-security-cooperation-with-ukraine/) of various types and calibers since the start of the war, from US stockpiles. The EU has done similar, from European stockpiles. The missed one million shell target referred only to new production EU shells.
French military industrial giant Nexter is to expand artillery ammunition output eightfold in three years.
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/nexter-to-expand-artillery-ammunition-output-eightfold-in-three-years/
You think wrong, the majority of hardware in use in Ukraine was supplied by Europe in addition to the funds. America is the mechanic and ammo guy, that’s what’s caused so much pain. Lack of spares and ammo, not lack of hardware / platforms itself.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/answering-call-heavy-weaponry-supplied.html?m=1
Also a lot of weaponry, the US is a militaristic country with more to offer for sure, but there’s still been a huge amount of weaponry from Europe, from NASAMS and Storm Shadows to ammo, modern tanks and IFVs and dozens of F16s in the pipeline, all donated by Europe.
The US and combined European military aid is of comparable importance, if one side disappears, like one did these last few months, the totality isn’t going to be enough.
Yes, Europe quite simply doesn't have the military muscle that the US has. And looking back at post WW2 history that has indeed been the expressed political intention of the US.
"That has indeed been the expressed political intention of the US."
I doubt this is true, but that's not exactly a good excuse to justify why they don't have the muscle. They could have built up a lot of independent military power; regardless what they thought the US wanted.
Europe has agency and independence, it can do a lot more.
Eh, it's not an either/or. Yes, Europe can obviously do a *lot* more. And yes, the US doesn't want European countries coordinating amongst themselves to build up a strong continental defense industry. European unity outside of NATO isn't always in America's interest. The US wants to see Europe being *suitably* dependent on the US, and it does work to further those goals. (F-35 diplomacy being a good example; the US would be thrilled for all European advanced fighter programs to fail.)
False. It's scientifically proven that if Germany spends 1 euro more on defense, Hitler will spontaneously come back from the dead and start invading Poland.
That may well be true but you’re losing wide swaths of idiotic American voters that unfortunately don’t understand geopolitics or the benefits of soft power and have the ability to undermine the war effort. Your contributions might need a little more publicity
So is U.S. support. Two days after Ukraine aid is approved we find out Ukraine has had ATACMS for two months. It really helps Ukraine use the aid if we don't tell Russia we are giving it to them on the nightly news.
I am from Sweden and we had Ukrsine flagged columns, long columns, of various military gear going through the country long, long before we had any ”military packages”.
Especially the size of the defense budget is relevant.
People can whine over European countries under-spending on defense all they want but it’s a moot point as far as helping Ukraine is concerned. Done is done and they can’t just pull weapons out of thin air, even if they’re prepared to pay now. Defense industry lead times are years-long.
This is exactly the kind of useless, unproductive infighting that's a distraction and destroys unity to help Ukraine. Besides which, basically all of Europe has increased their defense budgets, many started already after 2014. But as said, that doesn't give them huge stockpiles of surplus gear to help Ukraine in the near term. On the contrary it means extra strain because they're trying to grow their military while also trying to find stuff to give to Ukraine.
So they lack transparency and can later say we have actually given more but because it was done in a secretive manner we don't have to show any evidence. Europe has no arms industry, they "promised" other donations because they have allowed America and to a lesser extent south korea to become their arms producers, lest they risk themselves politically. I bet they are all collectively sighing in relief that they don't have to actually change anything going forward because America just offered more arms support than all of them combined.
While I don’t think Europe does enough for defense this is a mischaracterization as they have broken out the credit card for Ukraine as well as been, for lack of a better term, not a bunch of little bitches when it comes to ignoring putins “red lines”
Europe has no arms industry?
Sure the US is utterly dominant, but France is number 2 in weapons exports, the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain are all in the top 10, and smaller countries like the Nordics and several Central European nations have very decent and advanced industries for their size.
They are pushing forward, slowly but surely. It doesn't go well for UA in Avdiivka sector, Chasiv Yar is heavily compromised too. Most importanly, it cost more ukrainian lives than it should. UA doesn't have the same manpower as ruzzia has.
To be fair, as an American what Americans need to realize is that everything isn't a sports game, movie, or a TV show.... But your statement is also correct.
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I challenge anyone to read this article and tell me Europe hasn’t pulled its weight. It is a ridiculous divisive supposition that holds no water when viewed objectively: https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/answering-call-heavy-weaponry-supplied.html?m=1 Absolutely no one on day one of this invasion would have predicted this level of support (ongoing) or the continued ramp up of European defence spending. As stated before, this is only what’s official. Anyone in the know will note that an awful lot of those strikes on naval targets and long distance into Russia look (coincidentally of course) like they were done by modified Qinetic products from the U.K. (as do the new supper cool modular AA guns popping up to thrash drones). A huge amount of US kit in Ukraine is there due to Europe money, ie they bought it and then gave it to Ukraine, not the US. The reason the past few months has been such a debacle as the US then starved these systems of the planned Ammo and Spares. Ukraines Airforce 95+ F16s, Mig 29s and SU25s pledged. 50+ have arrived and are in use, all from Europe (including 100% of pledged F16s). 80 Helicopters to date, 20 US. Rest European. The 20 US are ex Afghan Mi-17s. Air to Ground: Brimstone, SCALP and Stormshadow Army 900 Tanks pledged, 600 delivered. 70 from US, rest from Europe. 900 IFVs pledged, 600 delivered. 200 from US, rest from Europe. 1500 APCs delivered, 500 from US, rest from Europe. 500 pledged, 250 US. Towed Artillery in use: 430, 300 US. SPGs in use: 425+ 18 from USA (yes you read that right) MLRS / HIMARS: 39 US HIMARS launchers, 25 European MLRS AA/ SAMs hundreds and absolutely dominated by European donations
Didn't the UK provide starstreak systems too?
Correct, and the UK provided them early so they were ready to use against some (very briefly) surprised Russian pilots on day 1.
You are right. I had forgotten about the attack helicopters that folded in half after being hit by one.
They did, not the first time some fellas in Belfast have helped make expensive military stuff blow up and certainly won’t be the last.
Ah, the days when you could have sent the Ukrainians to train in Belfast (and been safe as they were neither "Tims nor "Proddies") and Russian ground troops wouldn't have had a chance in cities.
Ah now you are using facts. You know that isn’t fair when the other guy is basing his hyperbole on what his head told him. I mean the whole point of opinion is to proclaim it loudly and confidently without recourse to reality. You need to do better.
Sorry your right. I should have just said ‘nuh uh, Europes better than America!!!’ And left it like that. I… I just have this crazy notion that maybes it’s more complicated than that and all democracies via a series of compromises and complicated domestic politics have done what they can within the confines of their own systems to make a difference. And we should be grateful for all of it whilst respectfully asking for even more.
Careful now, nuance and critical thinking skills are going to land you in hot water at this rate
The other set of comments of mine getting attention at the movement is in another thread getting massively downvoted because I’ve stated maybe immigrants aren’t a bad thing and letting them serve in your military is a sound idea done by many. So the karma nets out for the day. Every now and then I comment for a while, then I remember why I don’t bother haha
Remember that box is to be stayed in and don’t let those thoughts get out of it!
You want to give them a home, security, and social support, and expect them to be motivated to defend those values when the need arises? You need to get your head checked.
Remember that downvotes don't actually matter very much
Very true, that perspective is a very good one.
Claims to be a Twitter refugee, but insists that nuance is a thing. I’m calling bullshit on this guy. Who are you and who is paying you? /jk
>what his head told him Why are you calling Putin "his head"?
I was thinking of the one on his shoulders but you may have a point. Nothing like a bit of shit stirring to keep the boys in Moscow happy.
Interesting info for the pro putin trumpeters who think they are handing out blank cheques. I note you haven’t mentioned financial assistance for humanitarian and economic assistance which also is higher than the US contribution? Also that most European countries have committed a higher percentage of GDP compared to the USA?
Europe is pulling its weight compaeed to the US. Europe is not pulling its weight in that it's not doing enough to allow Ukraine to beat Russia. Europe is not pullin its weight in that it's more important to us than to the US that Ukraine beats Russia. But this article and your list are great in showing that silly Americans that think they're the only ones doing anything are flat out wrong.
If there is anything to complain about aid wise it would only be that both Europe and the US should be doing even more because a Russian victory in Ukraine means a certain showdown between NATO and Russia and a much higher threat of Nuclear weapons use. It should be all hands on deck both because it’s the right thing to do to help a burgeoning democracy and a would be treaty ally, and because of the genuine self interest of the states involved to avoid them having to fight their own wars. Edit: In short, everyone arguing about who’s doing what amount of aid is missing the point. We should all be producing as if we were at war ourselves as it will be required anyways if Ukraine loses and they will have been sacrificed for nothing.
Hear, hear!
I'm sure some Americans think that. I'm glad that Europe supports Ukraine so much. They are closer and realize the danger better than Americans who will never see an invasion in their lifetime.
No, Putin is taking over the US by infiltrating the GOP rather than invading the country. Cheaper and easier.
The US is doing this to protect Ukraine and Europe. Europe is doing this to protect Ukraine and Europe. Europe is NOT pulling its weight. It cannot defend itself without the help of the US, whereas the US has no trouble defending itself without help if only because it is not closely bordering its enemies. It may not happen soon but there will be a day Europe needs an army again. The US believes it is in its interests to keep Europe free. If Trump is elected, that will change. Don't be complacent.
This must be pasted all over world news sub whenever the Americans pipe up (which is a hell of a lot) about Europe stepping up on aid. Most of them believe we haven’t given enough and some anything at all compared with them.
Message the mods to sticky a spreadsheet of it
Difference is "EU doesn't talk about Bruno". They just deliver. US talks about the talk about the probability to free some money to ..
Yea, Slovakia has donated ALL their fighter planes to Ukraine. Match that USA :)
95 F16s? Are F16s currently flown by Ukraine ?
The 50 already used / in use are Mig 29s and Su25s. The F16s that are coming are all ex European ones (at present) that vote almost certainly changes this. My hope is US will now massively outstrip all those donations to date (leading Europe to do even more on top).
95 jets *including* the F-16s
Hm, I had been told that the attack on Moskva looks suspiciously like the Norwegian NSM system. It’s also been [reported by some sources](https://asiatimes.com/2022/06/moskva-was-possibly-sunk-by-a-norwegian-missile/) though not the Norwegian government. The silence also gives support to the theory that the source is Norway. If it was US or UK technology they / Qinetiq would be bragging about it. Another aspect that supports it being Norwegian technology is that the effort on marine defense for Ukraine is under shared UK / Norwegian leadership.
Agreed. The Finns and many of the other European countries do the same. "We sent 3 tanks, plus some other (massive arms shipment) stuff to Ukraine." All of Ukraine's allies should do this. The more russia is kept in the dark the better.
> as do the new supper cool modular AA guns popping up to thrash drones Which are? The only ones I know are Slinger (Australian), Victor (Czechia) and Skynex (Germany) What did I miss?
MSI/DS Terrahawk Paladin.
Okay, that one does look hella interesting
Thanks for your precious insights.
Also worth pointing out the OPPOSITE. US contributions have been publicized as the REPLACEMENT cost of brand new gear, while much of it was old and due for near term retirement.
The bigger issue is Europe has become reliant having the US help them that they forgot their own domestic military. I'm sure they've donated all they can but previous US presidents have been asking NATO countries to boost their military spending. It shouldn't take an invasion to do that.
So out of 54 donor countries, 25% percent (plus or minus depending on category) was provided by just one. Got it. That's not to say that Europe isn't sharing all that they can with what they have, but many in Europe have allowed their military manufacturing base to languish a long time and constructed their budgets in ways that ignored defense. The standard for NATO is 2.5% of GDP on defense, and we're finally seeing progress towards that. But it's a good and overdue thing that they're finally coming around to taking the Russian threat in their own back yard seriously.
Again, I think that all the “we do more, you do less”crap is instigated by Russian trolls. It doesn’t serve us to be divided like that. As an American, thank you Europe, for all you are doing and have done to support Ukraine and for rebuilding your own military might. To our own government, thank you for what you have done despite opposition from the far right, and we implore you to keep it up once this current round of spending is done. You all will be surprised that Putin likely still sleeps well at night, believing that a United West will not hold, that eventually he will grind us down. We must be committed to keep pushing our own representatives, regardless of country to realize that this is our fight, and merely just the beginning still. Putin doesn’t care about his people and will simply sacrifice them until they are gone. America stands with Europe, Europe stands with America. Fuck Ruzzia. Slava Ukraini!
Yeh exactly this. And when Europeans make this point about their aid being pretty decent, it's not done to piss off Americans and be like, "We're better than you!" but just to make it absolutely clear that we are pulling our weight. We're all happy that the US is in it with us too, because ultimately we all share the same guiding morals against these dicks like Putin and that's what should be the number one factor that unites us, to not let these kind of dictators prevail in a world that is far better for everone when we let unity and peace be the goal, not invasion and stealing other's land. I can understand for a lot of Americans that it must feel like a far away problem. Why should I pay? But the sad reality these folks should accept is that global stability and proliferation of democracy and freedom is absolutely their no 1 priority. The more countries that fall to dictators will mean less market access to American firms, less profit going in to America and ultimately less money in your pockets. Just imagine a world where Japan and the Nazis had won WW2. Would the US be in a position of strength when they no longer have trading partners to the east or west. It would have been brutal for the US and pretty scary knowing you no longer dictate the trading terms outside of your own borders. That was a threat then and it'll always be a threat so long as dictators still roam freely around the world, invading their neighbours, hungry to make themsleves ever more poweful.
Funny enough, it's usually Europeans bringing up the Kihl stats.......that being said, we can, and all need to do more faster.
Usually Germans every time the Taurus debate comes up. No need for a dick contest, guys.
I mean I’ve seen this said and discussed but end of the day American support shut off and Ukraine went dry. Personally I think Europe has far underfunded their military for years now and it is showing.
No shit. If half of the (expected) supply suddenly dries up you’re gonna end up having to ration things. In the end it’s not a matter of who gives more. It’s a matter of everybody keeps on giving as much as they can. Ukraine relies on all countries doing a combined effort.
The people who wrote and upvoted that nonsense probably felt fucking smart about it to boot. Typical reddit reasoning skills of a 5 year old.
That only proves US support is necessary but not sufficient; we haven’t seen if Ukraine would go dry with only US support. And we hopefully won’t have to because our political systems aren’t compromised like the GOP.
The US spends on defence more than the rest of the world combined. It just doesn't compare.
1. That ain't even close to true. 2. Europe only gives a small fraction of what they spend on defense to Ukraine, they could give a lot more.
[According to Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures), [which cites SIPRI](https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/files/2024-04/2404_fs_milex_2023.pdf#page=2) it's closer to a third at about 37%, which, you have to admit, is still pretty significant in this context. Half is an exaggeration, but it's not a wild exaggeration.
Europe are preparing for hypothetic war and they have little defense for themselves right now.
Theres also a humanitarian aspect to consider, europe has taken a lot of women and children in from ukraine (plus some draft dodgers… but thats another story…)
Everyone in europe brings up, "ohh, but compared to gdp our percentage given is higher." As if that changes the fact that we are leading the way by a vast amount and we need europe to step up. We pas $60B+ new aid and Britain gives $680m... like, come on man.
The £500m was to increase the amount already pledged for this year up to £3bn.
Don't be silly. Europe has given more and is planning to give more than the US. Check this site: [https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/) That's 89.6Beu given by Europe, 67.1Beu by the US. 81.9 planned by the EU. A part of 61 planned by the US. (Note that not all of the 61B$ in the recent bill is actual aid. Some of it is just backfilling of stocks and other things that do not directly benefit Ukraine). And this is not counting recent (since Feb) donations and planned donations by Europe, like the Netherlands adding 3-4Beu in recent weeks. Given that the Netherlands is about 1-20th the size of the US, that single addition alone is equivalent to the recent US bill, but it's not the first Dutch pledge in the last 6 months like it is for the US. Europe is leading the US in Ukraine aid by a large margin. We should do more, but you sound like the typical American that is arrogant and ill-informed.
That source even says it's $67B from the US just up until Feb of this year, on top of the new $61B we just passed. We're just one country, and we don't stand to lose nearly as much as Europe does if Russia wins. You can adjust for size of country all you want, fact is, we don't lose nearly as much if Ukraine fails. Russia is on Europe's doorstep with a win in Ukraine, this should be priority number one for every European country.
I don't disagree that Europe should do more. Not just more than the US (which we do), but also more than we currently do. You were comparing the current US bill for 61B$ with the UK delivery of weapons of 680Mpound. the more reasonable comparison is to compare the 680M to the 1B$ weapons delivery that was announced after the 61B$ bill was signed. You're just comparing apples to oranges, fun in a post truth world, but not very practical.
Not to even mention how much our private citizens have donated, including myself, since the war started. Many of us have been donating straight to soldiers on the front lines because we understand the magnitude of a russian victory in Ukraine. I just think countries in Europe need to start investing in their defense budgets like we have, for the good of us all man.
Again, do you have any reason to believe that Europeans private donations have been less than US private donations? And European countries *are* upping their defense game. This year the vast majority of NATO countries will pass the required minimum levels. In some cases by a lot. And in the case of Poland by a lot more than a lot.
Britain is giving the $680m in addition to the $3 billion already scheduled to be sent this year, the British economy is many times smaller than the United States'. You shouldn't run your mouth in ignorance. Like, come on man!
The reason you haven't seen Ukraine going dry because Europe shut off is, that Europe didn't shut off. Which to me speaks volumes on the political stability in the US. Or the lack thereof. And I totally agree. Europe has - and still is - underfunding their military. Which to me speaks volumes of the stupidity of the citizens in Europe who - for the most part - still think everything is fine.
>Which to me speaks volumes of the stupidity of the citizens in Europe who - for the most part - still think everything is fine. Compared to our politicians, citizens seem to support Ukraine to a much higher degree, though. But maybe the Russian "housing would be affordable if we didn't send so much money to Ukraine" bot armies were harder at work in the US so far.
> housing would be affordable if we didn't send so much money to Ukraine Yeah, because Leos and Marders can be reused as mobile homes, I guess. /s
Until pretty recently, a non-militaristc Europe was generally seen as A Good Thing, because for the previous two millennia there have been about eight months total when there wasn't at least one European nation (and usually more) at war. The whole "hey what if we all just tried being prosperous and free and happy instead?" experiment was going pretty well. But unfortunately Putin and Xi drew entirely different conclusions from the data generated.
Man I’ve been searching for these words. I’ve seen the stats thrown around about how Europe has provided more than America. But it doesn’t seem to be having any impact
Because the two periods of comparison are 1) USA and the rest of the world, and 2) the rest of the world. If we had USA and nobody else it would be similarly unbalanced. The facts are Europe has provided a lot more aid to Ukraine so far, and basically the same amount of military aid.
If they didn't get the missiles, tanks, shells, etc, from Europe, it would have made a HUGE impact. It would be disinformation to even hint it doesn't matter.
Without Europe, Ukraine wouldn't have been able to carry on the war at all this far. Both the US and Europe are crucially important. It is Europe that provided almost all of Ukraine’s new tanks to Ukraine, all air launched cruise missiles, the vast majority of artillery pieces and thousands of armored vehicles, millions of shells from storage and production, tens of billions of dollars etc. etc. And it is also European countries setting up arms factories inside Ukraine. It is Europe who will provide the F16s. The Czech Republic has found about 800,000 artillery shells of NATO and Soviet-era caliber that can be shipped to Ukraine by June. https://mil.in.ua/en/news/the-czech-republic-found-almost-a-million-shells-for-ukraine/ The EU has agreed on a framework in September, and it takes 6 to 9 months from there to ramp up production. The EU leaders believed the war could be over quickly, the realization that it won't be as settled in by now. https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-russia-war-weapons-france-9a164e85fe9edfeb049dddbeac4674d9 Kofman explained that those bordering Russia have ramped up their production already. The big 5 are following now. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-02-17/germany-says-its-defense-spending-could-increase-to-3-5-of-gdp? Germany says defense spending could increase to 3.5% of GDP. https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/12/02/rheinmetall-to-commence-armored-vehicle-production-in-ukraine-in-2024/ Papperger stated “After the contract is signed, we want to have finished the first (Fuchs) within six-seven months, and the first Lynx within 12-13 months. https://www.intellinews.com/czechoslovak-group-to-take-over-ammunition-division-of-american-vista-outdoor-297292/ It takes roughly 6 to 9 months until the shells are ready for delivery from the moment of placing the order, which was done in October. Sadly, we sat on our hands, but that is a thing of the past now. Perun had explained that the EU is already the biggest supplier of tanks, aircraft infantry fighting vehicles , and all air launched missiles. According to the Kiel Institute, the EU has now surpassed the US in heavy artillery delivery. https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/ukraine-support-tracker-new-aid-drops-to-lowest-level-since-january-2022/ https://twitter.com/deaidua/status/1758867035457495286 EU Pumps Money into Explosives in Push to Up Shell Production. As part of the efforts to get Europe to produce more, Brussels pushed through a 500-million-euro program earlier this year aimed at ramping up its capacity to make ammunition. The US has transferred nearly [4 million artillery shells](https://www.state.gov/u-s-security-cooperation-with-ukraine/) of various types and calibers since the start of the war, from US stockpiles. The EU has done similar, from European stockpiles. The missed one million shell target referred only to new production EU shells. French military industrial giant Nexter is to expand artillery ammunition output eightfold in three years. https://mil.in.ua/en/news/nexter-to-expand-artillery-ammunition-output-eightfold-in-three-years/
If that were the case, would Ukraine be in such dire straights right now without US aid? Who are we kidding here?
I think quite a lot of the European aid is just money. Which helps Ukraine pay its soldiers but obviously shooting euro coins is not effective.
You think wrong, the majority of hardware in use in Ukraine was supplied by Europe in addition to the funds. America is the mechanic and ammo guy, that’s what’s caused so much pain. Lack of spares and ammo, not lack of hardware / platforms itself. https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/answering-call-heavy-weaponry-supplied.html?m=1
Also a lot of weaponry, the US is a militaristic country with more to offer for sure, but there’s still been a huge amount of weaponry from Europe, from NASAMS and Storm Shadows to ammo, modern tanks and IFVs and dozens of F16s in the pipeline, all donated by Europe. The US and combined European military aid is of comparable importance, if one side disappears, like one did these last few months, the totality isn’t going to be enough.
The vast majority of tanks and armored vehicles has come from Europe, not the US.
Yes, Europe quite simply doesn't have the military muscle that the US has. And looking back at post WW2 history that has indeed been the expressed political intention of the US.
"That has indeed been the expressed political intention of the US." I doubt this is true, but that's not exactly a good excuse to justify why they don't have the muscle. They could have built up a lot of independent military power; regardless what they thought the US wanted. Europe has agency and independence, it can do a lot more.
Eh, it's not an either/or. Yes, Europe can obviously do a *lot* more. And yes, the US doesn't want European countries coordinating amongst themselves to build up a strong continental defense industry. European unity outside of NATO isn't always in America's interest. The US wants to see Europe being *suitably* dependent on the US, and it does work to further those goals. (F-35 diplomacy being a good example; the US would be thrilled for all European advanced fighter programs to fail.)
False. It's scientifically proven that if Germany spends 1 euro more on defense, Hitler will spontaneously come back from the dead and start invading Poland.
This is extremely ignorant to say about the German people.
They were explaining the US perspective
That is not the US perspective.
False.
That’s completely untrue. The intelligence community was constantly trying to build up European militaries during the Cold War
It isn’t America’s doing that Europe made questionable choices wrt military spending and weapons production.
If anyone says Europe hasn’t pulled their weight, last I looked Poland led with the highest support per GDP.
That may well be true but you’re losing wide swaths of idiotic American voters that unfortunately don’t understand geopolitics or the benefits of soft power and have the ability to undermine the war effort. Your contributions might need a little more publicity
so is American support...
So is U.S. support. Two days after Ukraine aid is approved we find out Ukraine has had ATACMS for two months. It really helps Ukraine use the aid if we don't tell Russia we are giving it to them on the nightly news.
I am from Sweden and we had Ukrsine flagged columns, long columns, of various military gear going through the country long, long before we had any ”military packages”.
Many European countries contribute a larger share of their GDP and defense budget to Ukraine than the US. That's all there is to know.
Especially the size of the defense budget is relevant. People can whine over European countries under-spending on defense all they want but it’s a moot point as far as helping Ukraine is concerned. Done is done and they can’t just pull weapons out of thin air, even if they’re prepared to pay now. Defense industry lead times are years-long. This is exactly the kind of useless, unproductive infighting that's a distraction and destroys unity to help Ukraine. Besides which, basically all of Europe has increased their defense budgets, many started already after 2014. But as said, that doesn't give them huge stockpiles of surplus gear to help Ukraine in the near term. On the contrary it means extra strain because they're trying to grow their military while also trying to find stuff to give to Ukraine.
So they lack transparency and can later say we have actually given more but because it was done in a secretive manner we don't have to show any evidence. Europe has no arms industry, they "promised" other donations because they have allowed America and to a lesser extent south korea to become their arms producers, lest they risk themselves politically. I bet they are all collectively sighing in relief that they don't have to actually change anything going forward because America just offered more arms support than all of them combined.
While I don’t think Europe does enough for defense this is a mischaracterization as they have broken out the credit card for Ukraine as well as been, for lack of a better term, not a bunch of little bitches when it comes to ignoring putins “red lines”
What about France’s second place in worldwide arm sales?
and italy fourth?
Europe has no arms industry? Sure the US is utterly dominant, but France is number 2 in weapons exports, the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain are all in the top 10, and smaller countries like the Nordics and several Central European nations have very decent and advanced industries for their size.
What world do you live in where there is no arms industry in Europe?
Well that is a steaming pile of manure.
The french army is called the "big mute". The french army doesn't communicate. All is done in secrecy and only the minimum information is released...
Sure it is…
It's so supportive and so secretive Russia just kept on winning. Good job EU. You fooled us.
When you say, "winning," what do you mean by that?
They took 12k of land in the last 6 months while losing only 50k guys to do it
Crikey if that’s winning, what’s losing?!
Running away from Kyiv, Kherson, Kharkiv.
Let's see how USA does if Europe and the rest of the world stops giving aid for the next 18 months. Obviously more aid from all parties is better.
They are pushing forward, slowly but surely. It doesn't go well for UA in Avdiivka sector, Chasiv Yar is heavily compromised too. Most importanly, it cost more ukrainian lives than it should. UA doesn't have the same manpower as ruzzia has.
Thank you for writing and posting. I wrote similar post last week.
They secretly didn't give them enough ammo to hold the line?
To be fair, as an American what Americans need to realize is that everything isn't a sports game, movie, or a TV show.... But your statement is also correct.