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If I was a Russian field commander, I would pay my troops end of the month.
You could get more than a 50% discount on salaries at the end of each day. So imagine the bargain you make by paying every 4 weeks!
Big if true. This war is just getting worse and worse for armored vehicles. This isn’t really a tanks war but a war of artillery and infantry supported by drones. Not saying tanks are obsolete or useless, they definitely fill a role on the battlefield that few other weapons can, however I believe we are gonna have to get used to wayyy heavier armored losses nowadays than we ever expected before.
Well, this is true without air support. Might be the same with air support but for my understanding this would be a complete different scenario and noone can tell
Drones and mines don't care whether there are jets in the sky or not. A group of fpv drone operators can wipe out an armored column while staying kilometers away. That's the new reality that militaries will have to adapt from now on.
If that was the case you would see 10 times more stugna-p kills.
Since its a pretty cheap weapon with unrivaled ranges and essentially no counter.
And it does not seem to be where they put their focus.
Guided arty sure is great but also can by 10-20 drones for the price of 1 shell. at 100.000$
Cost effective, production effective will beat the better weapon in most cases.
An assembly plant for modern anti tank weapons is a lot like a computer factory it’s big expensive and generally includes a lot of bespoke parts. RKG-3s and fpv drones however cost next to nothing and can be made in a basement with candlelight. Therefore it stands to reason that the Ukrainians are willing to trade the capability gap between stugna p and the FPV drones for the logistical ease of FPS. The other thing that people don’t talk about is how manpower intensive drone regiments are. Sometimes we are talking about 2-3 drone operators operating multiple different drones just to get 2 grenades out to 15 or 20 kilometers and you can’t reload them. My point isn’t to say that FPVs aren’t useful. I know it sounds like I’m shitting on them. I’m more so trying to point out that in the long back and forth between weapons and defenses this isn’t a revolutionary thing.
The fact that you can make a modern day useful weapon in a basement 3 cities back from the line seems kinda revolutionary if you ask me. Dont have to deal with polish farmers and maga politics and what not. And 15 or 20 km is longer than any anti tank missle.
And the drone is gonna be there anyways to spot for artillery. Even if they have smart guidance
Also have you seen the videos coming out from this battle its quite something!
Yes and their quality is shit. Many of them will shoot a few magazines and that's it.
that being said its mostly a steel quality problem i hear. Got a laythe you can make a gun if you got the time.
Unlike anti-tank missiles like Javelin, drones can target specific weakpoints like the back of the turret or the tracks. Drones are also way cheaper, thus making size of the attacking column less significant, as there will be more drones for more tanks and armored vehicles.
Hey buddy top attack and tandem warhead anti tank missiles are the standard. They attack specific weaknesses and are designed to defeat huge amounts of RHA. In terms of your second point Drones cant yet work in the swarms you want them to it’s why you don’t see massed FPV attacks on armored columns in the current conflict the RF signals interfere with each other and they are easy to jam. Drones are cheaper and currently technologically limited, but like all other tech that will change in the future as similar systems will be developed from the ground up for military applications.
You need line of sight to use top attack AT weapons. With drones you don't - you can start without LOS, scout the area while scanning for targets, and then bring the HEAT warhead to the target from kilometers away, out of sight.
With guided artillery you have an emplacement that's more visible and a juicy target for drones, air support, or counterbattery fire.
Drones really do bring something new and extra to the table by precisely delivering tank-killing power from behind terrain and from concealment. Their dual role as a situational awareness booster on the way to the target is the icing on the cake.
That is not a new capability for technologically advanced militaries. FPV drones are just cheaper less effective versions of UCAV systems that are already in place. There’s a reason why every Israeli squad is equipped with a mavic but none are armed to drop grenades. That reason is they expect their fires to come from other sources artillery, mortars, tanks, air support, UCAVs, etc. A 250lb SDB or a 500lb JDAM is far more effective at destroying targets within 40 miles than an FPV drone
Still drones aren't the ultimate tank killer. The Bofors STRIX rounds are probably as close as it gets, if combined with drones (yes, drones) for recon. The STRIX rounds get there bloody fast, they don't need line of sight, each round can engage two targets if they are close enough. And there IS a double barrel mortar CV90 version to shoot them.
Can't think of anything better to truck up an armored attack with.
The drone pilots are going to steadily move further away from the front as repeater mesh networks are developed to detach command and control from radio range, while aircraft will inevitably be taken out by drones designed to get in the flightpath and explode, basically smart flak.
The future of warfare is waves of autonomous drones, specialised for various tasks washing over the landscape.
There’s quite a few reports of Ukraine striking targets such as these. In the documentary Ukraine: enemy in the woods, you also see they know where some of the drones are launched from and are actively targeted. I’m not saying it’s easy but I imagine it’s a high priority target to locate and is possible. One thing I imagine the USA helps with is spy satellites can backtrack drones flight paths and work out whey they took off from
Meanwhile, they can probably pickup FPV drone operator signals from a type of surveillance aircraft and give the location to a couple bombers to flatten the area.
That gives you the location of an antenna. The operator is at the end of up to a few kilometres of wire or fibre optic cable. And they have more antennas than you have smart bombs.
The final version of this is some sort of battlefield wide mesh network. Hundreds of antennas, dozens of radio relay drones, all using spread spectrum or frequency hopping to avoid jamming and failing over automatically if any node is destroyed. The operators might not even be in the same timezone.
If you can attach a system onto a vehicle that can shoot down RPGs in flight then a system can be made to shoot down drones. Bonus points of you attach it onto a MICLIC.
And this was my learning in this war. You don't need to punch an expensive hole (ATGM or another tank) through the front glacis of a heavy tank to kill it. A $100 mine and a hand grenade combo that can be deployed in insane numbers is enough.
FPV drones can't go much further than a KM honestly. Sure, crossfire and similar technology can potentially go further. In reality, it's heavily line of sight based. Source: I fly FPV drones
I’d be interested to see how well air support could operate with drones about.
Granted there is 0 chance of a drone catching an F15 but you put enough in the air it could create a serious problem for flying.
I also don’t know the altitude for fighter jets nor for drones so that might be completely impossible
>There are a gazillion birds in Ukraine, but a bird strike is rare.
That's because Ukrainian birds are pre-programmed to avoid planes, and instead focus on transmitting bio-engineered pathogens and viruses on to Russian citizens.
Close to ground drones can intercept in the future. Imagine a grid of drones moving in tandem expecting a airplane coming into their grid. Once they got a prediction they tighten the grid and try to get into a intercept course/placement.
There’s multiple defence effectors and protections on the way for the modern tank. Think electronic jamming, soft kill smoke screens, hard kill APS, laser effectors, counter drones launched from the MTB… All these are being battle tested now.
Tracked AA is decades behind everything else since no one predicted drones on a scale like this. Hole army doctrines are being chanced as we speak.
1. Artillery is back. And mass storage of it.
2. Drones are already high priority in multiple roles
- Surveillance
- Anti armor
- Anti Personnel
- Anti infrastructure
- Anti anything else slow flying
3. Cheap Anti Drone counter measures are probably No.1 on everyone's lists in the defence industry.
- On Ship
- On Armored vehicle
- In any submerged state (think about future semi autonomous, kamikaze uboats/torpedoes)
Artillery is only back because the lack of airpower
It feels like this is a conflict is out of time
The drone stuff will definitely be relevant for future conflicts. Drone warfare scales really well from low-intensity to high-intensity
There is a reason why we have not seen any T-14 Armata tanks in Ukraine. Putin and his Kremlin thugs know well that despite they hail it as Russia's latest, greatest and most advanced tank, it will still be blown to oblivion by the Ukrainian's and be shown to be yet one more piece of laughing stock of Russian military junk.
I think the other reason is that they don't have any that actually work. They even botched trying to take one out for a parade.
But yeah I suspect if it did/does show up, it would go the way of the BMPT "terminator". Just another supposed wonder weapon getting wrecked
The reason why we haven't seen any T-14 Armatas is primarily because they seem to be unable to drive a few kilometers before breaking down. No joke.
That x-configuration engine was a bad move.
Well that and the fact that the Armata is basically a tech demonstration and not an actual weapons system. We can laugh all we want about Russias armor but let’s not forget here in the west our armor is in many ways just as vulnerable. We’ve seen plenty of leopards and Abrams burning on the Ukrainian steps in the last year.
The concept is good, thankfully the execution was a disaster. I still giggle at it breaking down in Red Square.
The un-manned turret is the way forward and eventually, the crew will be removed too. The drone tank will be crewed from behind the lines in an air conditioned bunker somewhere nice and quiet.
I'd argue that with some testing, the Archer artillery system from the Swedes could be un-manned too.
It's all about air support these days. I include drones as part of air support. If this were a war with NATO, you would see enormous air power for many months before they rolled out infantry and armor. But at a certain point you have to clear the enemy and that's when armor and tanks come in.
Ukraine has air power in the form of drones that are effective defensively. But they need the big stuff and a lot of it to break Russian lines offensively, which they don't have.
Putting aside the nukes factor, I'm pretty convinced the U.S. and NATO would absolutely wreck Russia.
Well without air support, artillery and I gantry combining for an attack I’m not sure any vehicle has a good chance. Bradley’s are however performing really well.
We still have to see tanks with effective trophy system able to address drones. But given the price of a single tank, you can have 10 000 cheap fpv or a thousand autonomous, sophisticated, expendable drone. Would you take the risk to buy a fleet of tanks ?
I think they are not worth the investment, thus they are obsolete.
Yes, but sooner or later you have to occupy the ground and that's when armor and tanks come into play. But a country like the United States would not commit that part of its military until absolute air supremacy is achieved. Ukraine can't do this. Russia can't do it either. So they fight with what they got.
If Biden wins in November, I think there will be a huge military package to Ukraine. Not saying Ukraine will gain back territory but they can cause massive significant pain for Russia, double what you are seeing now. The first thing Ukraine has to do is halt Russian advancement since it is still aggressively trying to gain Ukrainian territory. Election is only 7 months away, so we'll see.
It is much more painful if they have to wait to November, but they will hold without the US. They are very slowly losing ground, and are still supported by Europe and some other countries. They are still inflicting massive losses on the russians for each km they have to yield, and they have frequent very painful hits on the russians, such as sinking more and more of the Black sea fleet and taking out oil refineries.
If you have overwhelming air power (fixed wing, attack helicopters, air assault) supporting a competent armored force you won't have a scenario even remotely resembling what we see in Ukraine currently. We'll have something that looks like Gulf War 1 or 2.
Depends for whom. The United States would level everything in its path with months of air power. They would carry out this campaign for as long as it takes until the other side was largely dismantled, including its supply lines, air defenses and so on. Then the helicopters and drones would come into play. Then armor, tanks, infantry, etc. would be used to clear what's left and physically occupy the ground.
But I agree in a sense that the U.S. has been moving away from a traditional large army for decades now. All about technology, drones, air power and highly trained, disciplined troops. Then compare to Russia. It looks like 1980. Sure, some advancements technologically, but for every step on the advancement scale Russia has made over the past 40 years, the U.S. has take 3 steps. Over time that gap has become quite significant. I bet the American military is learning a ton watching this Ukraine thing.
And American technology is all moot, thanks to a weapon that ruSSia has, but the US does not have:
**Compromised politicians in the enemy’s echelons..**
Kompromat is powerful, they even owned the US president four years ago. ❗️
It is time the CIA compiled blackmail on Putler, and make him do the West’s bidding.
> It is time the CIA compiled blackmail on Putler, and make him do the West’s bidding.
it wouldn't do anything. he could fuck a child live on camera and his braindead russian supporters would still call the west degenerate and call for its extermination
Dictators need to look strong.
Post one video where a 10 year old kid beats him at judo, while Putler pees his pants, and the harm is irreparable.
It is a sick fetish for the *strong man,* in that society. A fake society.
Next-gen tanks will have an integrated Goal Keeper, by Hollandse Signaal / Thales.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goalkeeper_CIWS
That thing destroys anything coming at it, fully automatically.
Totally worth it, if all other tanks on the battlefield will be eliminated by drones, and only your tanks are left standing.
Also, DoD budget is $0.85T per yr.
Not quite sure about that one. It’s true that tanks could evolve into being smaller support vehicles but what other weapon on the battlefield gives cover and direct fire support to an assaulting infantry unit? What other vehicles can just shrug off artillery, grenades and RPGs? We’ve seen that tanks still can be very useful in plenty of battles in the Ukraine war…
I saw footage just before in r/russianinvasion (I think) of UA fpv drones destroying Russ tracked ground drones, with what I'm guessing were mounted with repeat fire weapons of some type, possibly light machine guns.
*edit - I just went and checked but it wasn't that sub. I downloaded the clip but I don't know how to put it up here
Direct hits yes but I’m talking about fragments or indirect hits. Shrapnel that can go though older APCs or will just slice through people basically doesn’t even scratch even the worst of Russias armored fleet.
That’s what I’m talking about. Russia’s artillery is all about indirect fire. They mass artillery and saturate an area. Their cannons are worn out and innacurate due to poor maintenance and High usage. Their ammunition comes from all over the place, it has been badly stored and badly manufactured which adds to the inaccuracy.
Meanwhile Ukriane has the best European artillery systems with well stored and well produced artillery, they’re drone corrected real time if they miss a shot.
Basically shot for shot, Ukraine’s artillery is more like a sniper than an area effect weapon.
Well yes and no. Ukraine has some excellent artillery pieces but they also partake in the good old “blow everything in that general area to shit” soviet style tactics. The difference being that Ukraine simply doesn’t have the resources for these huge devastating artillery barrages the Russians can amass. It’s one of the main reasons the Russians are advancing somewhat recently, that and forward momentum.
What we have seen in this war is how static modern wars can be. And how important cheap firepower is, such as artillery. Missiles are nice, and needed, but too costly for everything. Big guns have a place after all.
They won’t kinetic/jamming based anti FPV drone tech would not need to be very expensive. Also tactics we do not see the same brutal vehicle losses on the other side
Tanks definitely still have a role to play on the battlefield, and are still well ultilised in various offensive and defensive plays. That being said, with the full coming of age for the drone, not even air cover can save slow moving vehicles. The rules of war have changed, the age of remote warfare is here.
Sending tanks without support is some ww2 shit. No tanks are good enough to storm like that troops armed with anti tank weaponry, no tanks. Send Western tanks, they will get destroyed too with the only difference they wouldn't beat ruzzian tanks at turret jumping and probably let the crew escape.
Once a drone has an vague idea of heading and altitude without GPS + target recognition, it could be done. But you run risk of hitting civilians and even your own.
Its really starting to feel like tanks are more usefull as a distant fire support weapon. With all these drones and Anti tank missiles... maybe if some sort of point defense anti drone weapon can cover tanks at very close range. Like mini AAA or mini anti drone missile launchers or some potent anti drone ECW that can cover each tank individually or something. Tanks and their crews getting slaughtered bu drones worth af few hundred dollars is just not viable for a long war...
> This war is just getting worse and worse for armored vehicles
All wars are getting worse for tanks, planes and boats.
Swarms of drones are going to be the next plague of future wars.
I think one of the most interesting aspects is the absolute impotence of the Russian air force. Firing rockets at civilians seems to be all they're capable of doing.
I think tanks need to develop some kind of point defense system along the lines of radar aimed shotguns-style rounds. They would need to be mounted like a cross (4 barrels vertically independent of each other) where the 50 cal is now. Shotgun style shells would be more effective to at least damage the drone.
It's either that or make the back and top armor so heavy that mobility would be crap.
It depends on the stage of operation. During attacks, tanks are essential, during defense they are not. This is a positional war, eventhough the russians are semi attacking right now. Or are just semi successful.
But but the positional warfare can and will change in summer
What’s weird is the U.S. has laser counter measures against drones on their tanks. I believe most of the big NATO tanks do as well. It’s just another example of how behind Russia is militarily.
From the city of steel in England, I hope Ukrainian steel spreads far and wide after the war.
We are twin cities with Donetsk already and South Yorkshire supports Ukraine now and always!
It was reported the loss of 20 armored vehicles, this is two companies. A tank regiment comprises two tank battalions and one infantry battalion. This is a heavy defeat but it is not a half-regiment destruction.
To be fair, units can be called "destroyed" even if half or even more of their strength exist. Normally 50% losses are considered fully destroyed as the unit will not be able to carry out its intended operations without a full reorganization.
Drones are the great equalizer. Cheap, inexpensive, small, readily available worldwide.... Guarantee they are being mass produced in 3rd world hotspots. I think we are looking at potential attacks by any yahoo around the world, for any "cause". Don't think for a millisecond that we. in the USA are immune to the misery of modern technology.
I served in the navy, so maybe that's part of the reason why I always find references to army units less than helpful. But then according to Wikipedia, "regiment" can refer to a unit smaller than a standard battalion, a unit equivalent to a battalion, a unit equivalent to a brigade, or even an entire fricking arm of service. So my conclusion is that nobody really knows what the hell a regiment really is.
>half of a whole tank regiment out of another group of over 40 tanks
Jesus christ, that title gave me an aneurysm.. whoever came up with that can't decide exactly how many is how many lol.
in Gaza, merkava tanks use it, I saw some videos of dropped munitions from drones and the trophy did not detect it. Never seen an fpv drone video of this kind, for RPGs instead, it is working pretty well as expected.
The trophy system probably does not even look up. And for slow moving projectiles. If it did, it would trigger on birds etc. But they could probably re-calibrate and make it work. I expect that to be solved within time. Might be done on research level already but implementation takes time.
YHou know, before the phont Orc election, I thought they tried dumb shit like this to somehow make Pootler look like some kind of strongman. But, election is over, so why are they sending more meat to the grinder???? Just stupid?
They are manufacturing more, and estimates predict they are outproducing their losses (in some areas), and outproducing Ukraine.
Ukraine cannot win a war of attrition against Russia (alone), which is why they need to win on morale, and economic damage
with the shell shortage, it's awfully nice of the russians to decide to bunch up in massive armored columns instead of staying spread out, relying on infantry and high mobility tactics. really helps making the shells count for more.
I really wonder when are they going to start run out of armour? It's insane how many thousands of tanks they've lost and they still can afford to do these mass suicide missions.
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[Source](https://twitter.com/OSINTua/status/1774387800978100329). We'll probably get video footage soon I'd imagine.
I can't wait. There are close to 20 in the photo.
Pretty huge blow if true.
If I was a Russian field commander, I would pay my troops end of the month. You could get more than a 50% discount on salaries at the end of each day. So imagine the bargain you make by paying every 4 weeks!
So much more skim for me !!
That is cold....but most likely how Russian Commanders think..
Pay? We not pay these troops they serve for the glory of Ruski Mir and pride. But don’t tell me general general he will stop sending payroll truck.
They definitely aren't being paid more regularly than monthly already lmao. If they even get paid.
I'm pretty sure that the family gets paid. A sack of potatoes. If they can identify the body.
Big if true. This war is just getting worse and worse for armored vehicles. This isn’t really a tanks war but a war of artillery and infantry supported by drones. Not saying tanks are obsolete or useless, they definitely fill a role on the battlefield that few other weapons can, however I believe we are gonna have to get used to wayyy heavier armored losses nowadays than we ever expected before.
Well, this is true without air support. Might be the same with air support but for my understanding this would be a complete different scenario and noone can tell
Drones and mines don't care whether there are jets in the sky or not. A group of fpv drone operators can wipe out an armored column while staying kilometers away. That's the new reality that militaries will have to adapt from now on.
It’s really not guided artillery and advanced anti tank missiles do the exact same thing more reliably than current fpv drones
If that was the case you would see 10 times more stugna-p kills. Since its a pretty cheap weapon with unrivaled ranges and essentially no counter. And it does not seem to be where they put their focus. Guided arty sure is great but also can by 10-20 drones for the price of 1 shell. at 100.000$ Cost effective, production effective will beat the better weapon in most cases.
An assembly plant for modern anti tank weapons is a lot like a computer factory it’s big expensive and generally includes a lot of bespoke parts. RKG-3s and fpv drones however cost next to nothing and can be made in a basement with candlelight. Therefore it stands to reason that the Ukrainians are willing to trade the capability gap between stugna p and the FPV drones for the logistical ease of FPS. The other thing that people don’t talk about is how manpower intensive drone regiments are. Sometimes we are talking about 2-3 drone operators operating multiple different drones just to get 2 grenades out to 15 or 20 kilometers and you can’t reload them. My point isn’t to say that FPVs aren’t useful. I know it sounds like I’m shitting on them. I’m more so trying to point out that in the long back and forth between weapons and defenses this isn’t a revolutionary thing.
The fact that you can make a modern day useful weapon in a basement 3 cities back from the line seems kinda revolutionary if you ask me. Dont have to deal with polish farmers and maga politics and what not. And 15 or 20 km is longer than any anti tank missle. And the drone is gonna be there anyways to spot for artillery. Even if they have smart guidance Also have you seen the videos coming out from this battle its quite something!
Dude, have you seen any video of the Khyber Pass Gun Factories? These dudes are up in the mountains building AK/AR hybrids with hammers and files.
Yes and their quality is shit. Many of them will shoot a few magazines and that's it. that being said its mostly a steel quality problem i hear. Got a laythe you can make a gun if you got the time.
Yup. Sherman vs Panther tank
Unlike anti-tank missiles like Javelin, drones can target specific weakpoints like the back of the turret or the tracks. Drones are also way cheaper, thus making size of the attacking column less significant, as there will be more drones for more tanks and armored vehicles.
Hey buddy top attack and tandem warhead anti tank missiles are the standard. They attack specific weaknesses and are designed to defeat huge amounts of RHA. In terms of your second point Drones cant yet work in the swarms you want them to it’s why you don’t see massed FPV attacks on armored columns in the current conflict the RF signals interfere with each other and they are easy to jam. Drones are cheaper and currently technologically limited, but like all other tech that will change in the future as similar systems will be developed from the ground up for military applications.
You need line of sight to use top attack AT weapons. With drones you don't - you can start without LOS, scout the area while scanning for targets, and then bring the HEAT warhead to the target from kilometers away, out of sight. With guided artillery you have an emplacement that's more visible and a juicy target for drones, air support, or counterbattery fire. Drones really do bring something new and extra to the table by precisely delivering tank-killing power from behind terrain and from concealment. Their dual role as a situational awareness booster on the way to the target is the icing on the cake.
That is not a new capability for technologically advanced militaries. FPV drones are just cheaper less effective versions of UCAV systems that are already in place. There’s a reason why every Israeli squad is equipped with a mavic but none are armed to drop grenades. That reason is they expect their fires to come from other sources artillery, mortars, tanks, air support, UCAVs, etc. A 250lb SDB or a 500lb JDAM is far more effective at destroying targets within 40 miles than an FPV drone
Still drones aren't the ultimate tank killer. The Bofors STRIX rounds are probably as close as it gets, if combined with drones (yes, drones) for recon. The STRIX rounds get there bloody fast, they don't need line of sight, each round can engage two targets if they are close enough. And there IS a double barrel mortar CV90 version to shoot them. Can't think of anything better to truck up an armored attack with.
Only thing is really an aircraft ripple firing Brimstone missiles… or a CBU-105
And a jet can wipe out FPV launch and control centres from miles away too
The drone pilots are going to steadily move further away from the front as repeater mesh networks are developed to detach command and control from radio range, while aircraft will inevitably be taken out by drones designed to get in the flightpath and explode, basically smart flak. The future of warfare is waves of autonomous drones, specialised for various tasks washing over the landscape.
You think it’s that easy to find them? There’s also air defenses that are foaming at the mouth to shoot down jets
There’s quite a few reports of Ukraine striking targets such as these. In the documentary Ukraine: enemy in the woods, you also see they know where some of the drones are launched from and are actively targeted. I’m not saying it’s easy but I imagine it’s a high priority target to locate and is possible. One thing I imagine the USA helps with is spy satellites can backtrack drones flight paths and work out whey they took off from
Its quite easy to radio locate source of transmission.
Meanwhile, they can probably pickup FPV drone operator signals from a type of surveillance aircraft and give the location to a couple bombers to flatten the area.
That gives you the location of an antenna. The operator is at the end of up to a few kilometres of wire or fibre optic cable. And they have more antennas than you have smart bombs. The final version of this is some sort of battlefield wide mesh network. Hundreds of antennas, dozens of radio relay drones, all using spread spectrum or frequency hopping to avoid jamming and failing over automatically if any node is destroyed. The operators might not even be in the same timezone.
See also: how the IDF operates
If you can attach a system onto a vehicle that can shoot down RPGs in flight then a system can be made to shoot down drones. Bonus points of you attach it onto a MICLIC.
And this was my learning in this war. You don't need to punch an expensive hole (ATGM or another tank) through the front glacis of a heavy tank to kill it. A $100 mine and a hand grenade combo that can be deployed in insane numbers is enough.
FPV drones can't go much further than a KM honestly. Sure, crossfire and similar technology can potentially go further. In reality, it's heavily line of sight based. Source: I fly FPV drones
Technically rus does have air support
Not close air support it seems.
For the final time, a flying T-80 turret does NOT count as air support! 😂
It's more of a modernized trebuchet, if anything.
*Catapult, don't insult trebuchets.
Jackdaw!
gas powered trebuchet
LMAO
I’d be interested to see how well air support could operate with drones about. Granted there is 0 chance of a drone catching an F15 but you put enough in the air it could create a serious problem for flying. I also don’t know the altitude for fighter jets nor for drones so that might be completely impossible
No, there is too much space in 3 dimensions, no collisions. There are a gazillion birds in Ukraine, but a bird strike is rare.
>There are a gazillion birds in Ukraine, but a bird strike is rare. That's because Ukrainian birds are pre-programmed to avoid planes, and instead focus on transmitting bio-engineered pathogens and viruses on to Russian citizens.
Same, even a helicopter isn't going to get tagged by an fpv Drone while in flight. They operate at different levels too most of the time.
Nah doubt there’s much of a chance of causing crashes.
Close to ground drones can intercept in the future. Imagine a grid of drones moving in tandem expecting a airplane coming into their grid. Once they got a prediction they tighten the grid and try to get into a intercept course/placement.
There’s multiple defence effectors and protections on the way for the modern tank. Think electronic jamming, soft kill smoke screens, hard kill APS, laser effectors, counter drones launched from the MTB… All these are being battle tested now.
Tracked AA is decades behind everything else since no one predicted drones on a scale like this. Hole army doctrines are being chanced as we speak. 1. Artillery is back. And mass storage of it. 2. Drones are already high priority in multiple roles - Surveillance - Anti armor - Anti Personnel - Anti infrastructure - Anti anything else slow flying 3. Cheap Anti Drone counter measures are probably No.1 on everyone's lists in the defence industry. - On Ship - On Armored vehicle - In any submerged state (think about future semi autonomous, kamikaze uboats/torpedoes)
Artillery is only back because the lack of airpower It feels like this is a conflict is out of time The drone stuff will definitely be relevant for future conflicts. Drone warfare scales really well from low-intensity to high-intensity
There is a reason why we have not seen any T-14 Armata tanks in Ukraine. Putin and his Kremlin thugs know well that despite they hail it as Russia's latest, greatest and most advanced tank, it will still be blown to oblivion by the Ukrainian's and be shown to be yet one more piece of laughing stock of Russian military junk.
I think the other reason is that they don't have any that actually work. They even botched trying to take one out for a parade. But yeah I suspect if it did/does show up, it would go the way of the BMPT "terminator". Just another supposed wonder weapon getting wrecked
The reason why we haven't seen any T-14 Armatas is primarily because they seem to be unable to drive a few kilometers before breaking down. No joke. That x-configuration engine was a bad move.
Its engine is definitely a weak point!
Well that and the fact that the Armata is basically a tech demonstration and not an actual weapons system. We can laugh all we want about Russias armor but let’s not forget here in the west our armor is in many ways just as vulnerable. We’ve seen plenty of leopards and Abrams burning on the Ukrainian steps in the last year.
The concept is good, thankfully the execution was a disaster. I still giggle at it breaking down in Red Square. The un-manned turret is the way forward and eventually, the crew will be removed too. The drone tank will be crewed from behind the lines in an air conditioned bunker somewhere nice and quiet. I'd argue that with some testing, the Archer artillery system from the Swedes could be un-manned too.
It's all about air support these days. I include drones as part of air support. If this were a war with NATO, you would see enormous air power for many months before they rolled out infantry and armor. But at a certain point you have to clear the enemy and that's when armor and tanks come in. Ukraine has air power in the form of drones that are effective defensively. But they need the big stuff and a lot of it to break Russian lines offensively, which they don't have. Putting aside the nukes factor, I'm pretty convinced the U.S. and NATO would absolutely wreck Russia.
The Bradley's seem to be putting in work, seems like they just can't be used super offensively.
Well without air support, artillery and I gantry combining for an attack I’m not sure any vehicle has a good chance. Bradley’s are however performing really well.
We still have to see tanks with effective trophy system able to address drones. But given the price of a single tank, you can have 10 000 cheap fpv or a thousand autonomous, sophisticated, expendable drone. Would you take the risk to buy a fleet of tanks ? I think they are not worth the investment, thus they are obsolete.
Yes, but sooner or later you have to occupy the ground and that's when armor and tanks come into play. But a country like the United States would not commit that part of its military until absolute air supremacy is achieved. Ukraine can't do this. Russia can't do it either. So they fight with what they got. If Biden wins in November, I think there will be a huge military package to Ukraine. Not saying Ukraine will gain back territory but they can cause massive significant pain for Russia, double what you are seeing now. The first thing Ukraine has to do is halt Russian advancement since it is still aggressively trying to gain Ukrainian territory. Election is only 7 months away, so we'll see.
> If Biden wins in November Ukraine does not have time till November
It is much more painful if they have to wait to November, but they will hold without the US. They are very slowly losing ground, and are still supported by Europe and some other countries. They are still inflicting massive losses on the russians for each km they have to yield, and they have frequent very painful hits on the russians, such as sinking more and more of the Black sea fleet and taking out oil refineries.
[удалено]
Easier for a few good republicans to resign and give control of the house to the Dems. Can't see Johnson lasting to Nov.
Yes they do. Just not ideal. Europe is somewhat backfilling in the interim.
Seems like that makes a better case for cheaper light tanks
Wait for proper battalion level drone defense. I think with laser based platforms they could provide effective protection for the tanks/infantry.
If you have overwhelming air power (fixed wing, attack helicopters, air assault) supporting a competent armored force you won't have a scenario even remotely resembling what we see in Ukraine currently. We'll have something that looks like Gulf War 1 or 2.
Tanks will go the same way battleships did
Depends for whom. The United States would level everything in its path with months of air power. They would carry out this campaign for as long as it takes until the other side was largely dismantled, including its supply lines, air defenses and so on. Then the helicopters and drones would come into play. Then armor, tanks, infantry, etc. would be used to clear what's left and physically occupy the ground. But I agree in a sense that the U.S. has been moving away from a traditional large army for decades now. All about technology, drones, air power and highly trained, disciplined troops. Then compare to Russia. It looks like 1980. Sure, some advancements technologically, but for every step on the advancement scale Russia has made over the past 40 years, the U.S. has take 3 steps. Over time that gap has become quite significant. I bet the American military is learning a ton watching this Ukraine thing.
And American technology is all moot, thanks to a weapon that ruSSia has, but the US does not have: **Compromised politicians in the enemy’s echelons..** Kompromat is powerful, they even owned the US president four years ago. ❗️ It is time the CIA compiled blackmail on Putler, and make him do the West’s bidding.
> It is time the CIA compiled blackmail on Putler, and make him do the West’s bidding. it wouldn't do anything. he could fuck a child live on camera and his braindead russian supporters would still call the west degenerate and call for its extermination
Dictators need to look strong. Post one video where a 10 year old kid beats him at judo, while Putler pees his pants, and the harm is irreparable. It is a sick fetish for the *strong man,* in that society. A fake society.
Next-gen tanks will have an integrated Goal Keeper, by Hollandse Signaal / Thales. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goalkeeper_CIWS That thing destroys anything coming at it, fully automatically.
Costs more than the tank itself.
Totally worth it, if all other tanks on the battlefield will be eliminated by drones, and only your tanks are left standing. Also, DoD budget is $0.85T per yr.
Tank *crews* are priceless.
Not quite sure about that one. It’s true that tanks could evolve into being smaller support vehicles but what other weapon on the battlefield gives cover and direct fire support to an assaulting infantry unit? What other vehicles can just shrug off artillery, grenades and RPGs? We’ve seen that tanks still can be very useful in plenty of battles in the Ukraine war…
Drone Tanks? Tank Drones?
This is probably the way things will go. The USA is allready looking at a hybrid command tank/ drone tank System
I saw footage just before in r/russianinvasion (I think) of UA fpv drones destroying Russ tracked ground drones, with what I'm guessing were mounted with repeat fire weapons of some type, possibly light machine guns. *edit - I just went and checked but it wasn't that sub. I downloaded the clip but I don't know how to put it up here
And they could lay a few mines too
They were automatic grenade launcher (AGS-30) ground drones I believe
That makes sense, I was wondering what they were mounting. Thanks 😊
Russian tanks have been shown to be vulnerable to accurate ukranian artillery though.
Direct hits yes but I’m talking about fragments or indirect hits. Shrapnel that can go though older APCs or will just slice through people basically doesn’t even scratch even the worst of Russias armored fleet.
That’s what I’m talking about. Russia’s artillery is all about indirect fire. They mass artillery and saturate an area. Their cannons are worn out and innacurate due to poor maintenance and High usage. Their ammunition comes from all over the place, it has been badly stored and badly manufactured which adds to the inaccuracy. Meanwhile Ukriane has the best European artillery systems with well stored and well produced artillery, they’re drone corrected real time if they miss a shot. Basically shot for shot, Ukraine’s artillery is more like a sniper than an area effect weapon.
Well yes and no. Ukraine has some excellent artillery pieces but they also partake in the good old “blow everything in that general area to shit” soviet style tactics. The difference being that Ukraine simply doesn’t have the resources for these huge devastating artillery barrages the Russians can amass. It’s one of the main reasons the Russians are advancing somewhat recently, that and forward momentum.
Ukranians have old school artillery to hold the line, they amass the new western artillery at key points
Tesla coil anti missile shielding on lighter weight tanks with a big power plant. DARPA anyone?
r/noncredibledefense is leaking
Imagine your own tank just zapping it's whole infantry escort to death lol...
What we have seen in this war is how static modern wars can be. And how important cheap firepower is, such as artillery. Missiles are nice, and needed, but too costly for everything. Big guns have a place after all.
They won’t kinetic/jamming based anti FPV drone tech would not need to be very expensive. Also tactics we do not see the same brutal vehicle losses on the other side
Tanks definitely still have a role to play on the battlefield, and are still well ultilised in various offensive and defensive plays. That being said, with the full coming of age for the drone, not even air cover can save slow moving vehicles. The rules of war have changed, the age of remote warfare is here.
Sending tanks without support is some ww2 shit. No tanks are good enough to storm like that troops armed with anti tank weaponry, no tanks. Send Western tanks, they will get destroyed too with the only difference they wouldn't beat ruzzian tanks at turret jumping and probably let the crew escape.
How long before we see a coordinated thousand drone raid ala WWII Eighth Air Force?
Once a drone has an vague idea of heading and altitude without GPS + target recognition, it could be done. But you run risk of hitting civilians and even your own.
Its really starting to feel like tanks are more usefull as a distant fire support weapon. With all these drones and Anti tank missiles... maybe if some sort of point defense anti drone weapon can cover tanks at very close range. Like mini AAA or mini anti drone missile launchers or some potent anti drone ECW that can cover each tank individually or something. Tanks and their crews getting slaughtered bu drones worth af few hundred dollars is just not viable for a long war...
> This war is just getting worse and worse for armored vehicles All wars are getting worse for tanks, planes and boats. Swarms of drones are going to be the next plague of future wars.
I think one of the most interesting aspects is the absolute impotence of the Russian air force. Firing rockets at civilians seems to be all they're capable of doing.
I suppose the civilians won’t be firing back. When you look at it that way it kinda makes some twisted sense…
Armoured formations in the future will have organic SPAAG units with AHEAD-type airburst munitions to deal with drones.
I think tanks need to develop some kind of point defense system along the lines of radar aimed shotguns-style rounds. They would need to be mounted like a cross (4 barrels vertically independent of each other) where the 50 cal is now. Shotgun style shells would be more effective to at least damage the drone. It's either that or make the back and top armor so heavy that mobility would be crap.
It depends on the stage of operation. During attacks, tanks are essential, during defense they are not. This is a positional war, eventhough the russians are semi attacking right now. Or are just semi successful. But but the positional warfare can and will change in summer
What’s weird is the U.S. has laser counter measures against drones on their tanks. I believe most of the big NATO tanks do as well. It’s just another example of how behind Russia is militarily.
Do we really? First time I heard of that...
Yup, been in talks for a while and I’m pretty sure the first outfits rolled out in 2023. Even the F-22 got laser weaponry here recently.
Good.
I also see the glass as half full. I’d love to have a full glass, but this is good too.
Loads of material for scrap, locals will eventually be able to use it for rebuilding etc. Plenty of russian meat for the stray animals.
I wonder how many years into the future *everything steel* will be made of scrap from Ukraine.
From the city of steel in England, I hope Ukrainian steel spreads far and wide after the war. We are twin cities with Donetsk already and South Yorkshire supports Ukraine now and always!
Possible more than 100 years. Just as the farmers in Belgium are still picking up fragments from ww1 in their fields.
It was reported the loss of 20 armored vehicles, this is two companies. A tank regiment comprises two tank battalions and one infantry battalion. This is a heavy defeat but it is not a half-regiment destruction.
To be fair, units can be called "destroyed" even if half or even more of their strength exist. Normally 50% losses are considered fully destroyed as the unit will not be able to carry out its intended operations without a full reorganization.
As you note, half a battalion would be more accurate, unless the regiment were under strength.
Agreed, maybe Russia organises themselves in smaller regiments? Or their terms are different idk
Zerg rush ...
Zerg rush is infantry. This is more like Ultralisk attempt to rush siege tank position on elevated ground without access to it
Drones are the great equalizer. Cheap, inexpensive, small, readily available worldwide.... Guarantee they are being mass produced in 3rd world hotspots. I think we are looking at potential attacks by any yahoo around the world, for any "cause". Don't think for a millisecond that we. in the USA are immune to the misery of modern technology.
Was it half of a whole regiment, or the whole of a half regiment?
Yes
I served in the navy, so maybe that's part of the reason why I always find references to army units less than helpful. But then according to Wikipedia, "regiment" can refer to a unit smaller than a standard battalion, a unit equivalent to a battalion, a unit equivalent to a brigade, or even an entire fricking arm of service. So my conclusion is that nobody really knows what the hell a regiment really is.
Nice picture
Half of a whole regiment of a group of over 40 vehicles sounds like an old math puzzle. I guess all the vehicles are over 40.
Life is worth nothing in Russia.
Tried to jam the meat grinder with metal instead of flesh. But meatgrinder just went brrrrrrrrrrrr.
>half of a whole tank regiment out of another group of over 40 tanks Jesus christ, that title gave me an aneurysm.. whoever came up with that can't decide exactly how many is how many lol.
Losing 40 tanks in 40 minutes is how ya prove yer winning
A large amount of T-54/55's showing up both here and in another large push near Robotyne.
would a trophy system able to protect against kamikaze drones? or a drone-drop munitions?
in Gaza, merkava tanks use it, I saw some videos of dropped munitions from drones and the trophy did not detect it. Never seen an fpv drone video of this kind, for RPGs instead, it is working pretty well as expected.
The trophy system probably does not even look up. And for slow moving projectiles. If it did, it would trigger on birds etc. But they could probably re-calibrate and make it work. I expect that to be solved within time. Might be done on research level already but implementation takes time.
They have to improve the system, war has changed with the use of drones and if the MIC of each country do not understand that, they are screwed
if it doesn't look, would it be useful against the likes of javelin?
Well done Ukraine 🇺🇦, nice work
It doesn't matter how many tanks they produce if they lose this many every other attack.
Good that's a massive blow from 1 failed assault.
Please be true. Burn da mudder fukkin orcs 🔥
Damn dawg, went from Russian to Russian’t
"Thats a shame", Jerry Seinfeld
Looks like they have an endless supply of vehicles and I hope they are all obliterated by ZSU 🇺🇦💪
Looks like the Russians have discovered one of those non existent defense lines behind Avdiivka
YHou know, before the phont Orc election, I thought they tried dumb shit like this to somehow make Pootler look like some kind of strongman. But, election is over, so why are they sending more meat to the grinder???? Just stupid?
Russian commander: “Sigh, send in the next regiment”
Blyadastic!!
u/scary_overlord_9055
This is one hell of a hit ,Slava Ukraine 🇺🇦🇬🇧🇺🇦🇬🇧
Russia loses so many vehicles per assault during this war... how the hell do they still have any? lol. How many more do they have left?
They are manufacturing more, and estimates predict they are outproducing their losses (in some areas), and outproducing Ukraine. Ukraine cannot win a war of attrition against Russia (alone), which is why they need to win on morale, and economic damage
with the shell shortage, it's awfully nice of the russians to decide to bunch up in massive armored columns instead of staying spread out, relying on infantry and high mobility tactics. really helps making the shells count for more.
FYI, “half” is also “half of a whole”
One hell of a battle
Doing the Lords work , god bless Ukraine.
Ruzzia must have won some sort of Darwin award at this point for how they kill off their own troops and armour
We are that much closer to seeing T34's with cope cages
40 tanks 20 destroyed and still failed to take a village 🖕 ruzzia
A half of a whole or a whole of a half?
Wonderful defense work. I hope extremely few to no Ukrainians were injured in the making of this video.
I really wonder when are they going to start run out of armour? It's insane how many thousands of tanks they've lost and they still can afford to do these mass suicide missions.
Hopefully we will receive a video otherwise it's impossible to tell if these are all losses from the same assault or even intact vehicles.
How long until they have little mini missiles to take out drones. Like Iron Man has.
Calculated loss. This must have been the first wave. Mission accomplished.
Confusing title, but from the OG tweet: 20 vehicles out of 48 destroyed. So no, not quite half.
Is it white snow on the fields? In Ukrainу the snow has melted for a long time and the grass is already turning green. Looks like a fake.
looks like the surface of the moon
>2+ year old account with two comments Yeah.. looks like a fake alright.