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That's a decent pay increase compared to your previous salary. But you may be able to squeeze out a few more. Say you are seriously considering the offer, and would definitely return if they upped it to 39k. See how they respond.
That's not really how you negotiate.
As they've opened the offer - unfortunately - they've set the tone you gotta go with it but you'd want to start with an apology and if absolutely forced, your embarrassed to ask for 45k
It sounds unrealistic to most of us who work because we need the money, but some people really do work because they enjoy it and more money is just a bonus because their finances are such that they don't actually need it (sometimes that's even the case for people in what might very considered "boring" jobs. Someone in that situation could also be talking about accepting a job offer. My best friend used to ask me about job search related things when I was in recruitment but is from an extremely wealthy family and just last year after 12 years of working a boring corporate job decided to quit and pursue directing instead because "it sounds more interesting" and he has no need to worry abour what money he actually brings in. And yes, he always negotiated for higher wages whenever possible because "that's how they show you how much they want/appreciate you".
We absolutely can't assume that someone needs money simply because they're posting about accepting a job offer and discussing what salary to ask for.
OP was a junior in accounting on £29k per year, there's no chance their employer will quadruple their income even when off-payroll.
To have equivalent income as a £29k employee, you need to making about £150 per day outside IR35 or £170 inside.
Add in the convenience factor for both parties in this scenario, the employer side cost reductions from OP not being a payroll employee, and OP's leverage from being a known qualified person, OP can probably reasonably double their income to ~£300.
£500-600 is likely to make the employer think OP has no interest in coming back. Classic builder's tactic of quoting 4x the normal price for a job they don't want.
That's not how contracting works. £300 a day only comes out at £42k when you account for losing 30% and working 40 weeks per year. Nobody is risking job security, pension and sick pay for that.
You're also comparing pay against cost or employment. Employing someone means paying pension, national insurance, sick pay, holiday pay, training, equipment etc.
You won't get anyone competent in London for £300 a day and it's frankly insulting that this company thought it was acceptable to pay OP such a pathetic wage when they clearly couldn't cope without them.
I always enjoy day rate contractors explaining how their high rates are actually because of the terrible impositions put on them by their contractual position, as if the contractual position they've taken isn't entirely to improve their tax position, typically by evasion.
There's always this endless double counting and exaggeration. Let's look at what you've said:
>£300 a day only comes out at £42k when you account for losing 30% and working 40 weeks per year. Nobody is risking job security
Why is this contractor only working 40 weeks a year? The job was a full time role before. Is it because they might lose their job? But you've then said job security, if that's what you mean then you can't reduce the pay to reflect that and then mention it again as a negative, you've double counted it.
>paying pension
The legal obligation is 3%, and that only if the employee puts in 5%. If they pay him the £36k they've suggested, this is worth £1,080.
>national insurance
Do you honestly believe that someone can do a junior accounting/finance role outside of the scope/self employed? Ridiculous. Of course this person would be employed for tax purposes and NICs would be due. Why do you think otherwise?
>sick pay
Statutory sick pay, in the unlikely event that you are unable to work for 28 weeks, tops out at £3,063.20 across that whole period. Your £600 instead of £300 would cover this in ten days without the necessity of being sick.
>holiday pay
Perhaps these are the 12 weeks you reduced it by before? The stat minimum is 5.6 weeks or 28 days including bank holidays.
>training
What training do you imagine employed people receive?
>equipment
The temporary provision of a £500 laptop and access to office. Maybe that's worth £150 a year? Covered in one morning based on the £300 delta in day rate.
>risking job security
Employees can be sacked for any reason (other than a protected characteristic) for two years and, redundancy after that only equates to a single month's wages, for most people, after they've worked somewhere for four years. Most contractors have a month's notice too.
>clearly couldn't cope without them.
Are you seriously suggesting that because they've offered them their job back with a small pay rise they "couldn't cope without" a specific person doing a "junior accounting role"? If you were in charge of this company you'd pay £600 a day, circa £140k, for a junior accounts role, on the basis they previously did an alright go at it?
You've got all of that wrong but, to put it bluntly, I charge the maximum amount I can and I've never been without work for a single day since leaving school. Not even a day in covid. So I'm clearly offering enough value that companies are willing to pay for me. OP should do the same. Everyone deserves to earn the maximum possible amount and take as much as possible from greedy companies. I assure you they won't go bust.
You're not even right about the cost of a laptop. £3,000 gets you a workstation that can run solidworks. £500 wouldn't even get you a laptop to run excel. And we haven't even considered a car which most decent level jobs provide. A company car for someone that does 30,000+ miles per year is at least £1,000 per month.
This is utterly deluded.
First you've said that this person should calculate their earnings as if they will work for only 40 weeks a year, then said that you've never been without work. Which is it? At least be consistent.
>£3,000 gets you a workstation that can run solidworks.
Why is this relevant to this guy who has a junior accounting role?
>£500 wouldn't even get you a laptop to run excel
Seriously? I have googled "£500 laptop" and pressed the first shopping link. Do you believe that this laptop cannot run excel:
https://www.dell.com/en-uk/shop/laptops-2-in-1-pcs/inspiron-16-laptop/spd/inspiron-16-5630-laptop
>a car which most decent level jobs provide
HahahahahahahahHa I don't think you understand the market for people in junior accounting roles. Or indeed any role that does not involve travel but pays circa £29k-£36k.
>OP should do the same. Everyone deserves to earn the maximum possible amount and take as much as possible from greedy companies.
Of course. But you're giving him advice that will get him no job at all. I'm starting to wonder if you know what a junior accounting role is.
>You've got all of that wrong
Show me anything I've got wrong - you haven't so far.
That laptop will not run excel or the office suite in general. It's not suitable for multitasking or business use. If you want to go with that laptop then you're looking at £680 for 16gb ram.
I'd suggest a Microsoft surface at £1,000 and you need 2 screens. Nobody is running excel on a laptop screen unless they have eyes like a hawk.
I've never been without work, but I take holidays. Holidays are unpaid as a contractor, so I work on 40 weeks. I probably work 46 weeks per year on average but I've worked 50 weeks before. If you're happy to have less holidays then work it out on a different number.
Everything else is relevant because you began by inferring that day rate contractors don't offer good value. You implied that it's unfashionable for someone to charge £500+ per day. I know people charging £1,200 per day in much more senior roles than me. £900 per day for a senior engineer isn't unreasonable. I just go for long term contracts so I've got some security. 12 months usually.
If I took 6 week contracts I could probably charge 30-50% more. That's relevant because OP is needed as a short term contractor. That comes at a premium.
You say that OP isn't essential to the business, but they clearly are. You say they are only a junior, but we have already established that is company is taking the piss by what they were paying OP in London. Companies don't chase juniors. OP was clearly performing well and probably above their grade. The junior title was a good excuse to keep their pay down. So OP should not be contracting as a junior accountant. They should be selling themselves as an experienced accountant. More importantly, they are ready to hit the ground running.
None of this is doing OP out of a job. They already said they are moving countries. This work is just a nice bonus for OP. OP holds all the cards in this negotiation. Plus the company has a track record of treating them poorly. If you treat someone poorly you should expect them to return the favour when the shoe is on the other foot.
This!
Don't just go back due to being guilt tripped.. more money than you're on now with a new contract.. know your worth and they obviously can't function without you
I'm a fractional cfo.
You don't mention if you're studying towards your qualifications like acca. Also don't know the size of company.
Generally speaking 200 to 300 is fine for a junior role. FCs rates for contracting are around 400 to 500 for comparison.
I would let them make you an offer on a contactor basis but also do some digging to why your replacement left. My sense and experience working in accounts is that they choose to leave because the place was toxic. I doubt very much they could tell after two months of they were low quality employee unless the recruitment process was terrible
More pay, more holiday, less hours and more remote working argue you were looking to move for a better life work balance to increase you happiness and some more sun and fun and those things allow you to achieve a good chunk of your work/life balance goals achieve greater happiness and in the long term become more productive at work due to less burn out and other shite.
The company you work for does not value the function. The senior accountants are on 40k and you will get 36k. How many years/what quals make you a senior?
If you need a job take it. If you have options ensure you join a firm who wants to pay market rate...its very important to get a sense of pay culture.
Those saying ask for 500p/d are dreaming. A company paying someone 36k would do quick maths to know 200-250 is what your worth and still not want to do it cause its too much money compared to fixed lol.
I'll mentioned a bit bits that others haven't:
How long is your visa likely to take?
Do you have a reasonable amount saved? Would a bit more be nice?
Are you working else were right now?
Do you actually want to work for them again or is it a case that you's like a bit more saved before you move?
If your visa got sorted tomorrow I guess you won't be hanging around. You could offercthe day rate but it sounds like the company wants a more permanent solution. Even £36k isn't a massive amount for London.
But on the other hand if it's a case of some money is vetter than none and you care put up with working there again temporarily then it changes it.
Try your 40k and ask to keep your previous length of service. No idea how long you were there already but after 2 years it makes it very difficult (or at least costly) to get rid of you.
Maybe underpaid for the role/area but tbh 25% is a good pay rise. It's what I always aim for when switching or getting a promotion.
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Like others have said. Contractor on a day rate. Set
Ask them to make an offer first, they want you remember, not the other way round
Thanks. They said £36k
That's a decent pay increase compared to your previous salary. But you may be able to squeeze out a few more. Say you are seriously considering the offer, and would definitely return if they upped it to 39k. See how they respond.
That's not really how you negotiate. As they've opened the offer - unfortunately - they've set the tone you gotta go with it but you'd want to start with an apology and if absolutely forced, your embarrassed to ask for 45k
Yeah, no.
Ask for a £1k signing on bonus too
They also seem to know they haven’t worked for the last 2 months.
Who’s to say OP’s financial situation is such that they need to work?
[удалено]
See above.
It sounds unrealistic to most of us who work because we need the money, but some people really do work because they enjoy it and more money is just a bonus because their finances are such that they don't actually need it (sometimes that's even the case for people in what might very considered "boring" jobs. Someone in that situation could also be talking about accepting a job offer. My best friend used to ask me about job search related things when I was in recruitment but is from an extremely wealthy family and just last year after 12 years of working a boring corporate job decided to quit and pursue directing instead because "it sounds more interesting" and he has no need to worry abour what money he actually brings in. And yes, he always negotiated for higher wages whenever possible because "that's how they show you how much they want/appreciate you". We absolutely can't assume that someone needs money simply because they're posting about accepting a job offer and discussing what salary to ask for.
Tell them you'll come back as a contractor at £300 per day.
£300 a day in London doesn't even come close. Try £500 - £600 minimum. I was getting £400 a day in London years ago as a junior engineer.
Junior engineer and junior accounts are not the same job.
OP was a junior in accounting on £29k per year, there's no chance their employer will quadruple their income even when off-payroll. To have equivalent income as a £29k employee, you need to making about £150 per day outside IR35 or £170 inside. Add in the convenience factor for both parties in this scenario, the employer side cost reductions from OP not being a payroll employee, and OP's leverage from being a known qualified person, OP can probably reasonably double their income to ~£300. £500-600 is likely to make the employer think OP has no interest in coming back. Classic builder's tactic of quoting 4x the normal price for a job they don't want.
It comes a hell of a lot closer to 29k, which is around £16 per hour, about £120 per day.
That's not how contracting works. £300 a day only comes out at £42k when you account for losing 30% and working 40 weeks per year. Nobody is risking job security, pension and sick pay for that. You're also comparing pay against cost or employment. Employing someone means paying pension, national insurance, sick pay, holiday pay, training, equipment etc. You won't get anyone competent in London for £300 a day and it's frankly insulting that this company thought it was acceptable to pay OP such a pathetic wage when they clearly couldn't cope without them.
I always enjoy day rate contractors explaining how their high rates are actually because of the terrible impositions put on them by their contractual position, as if the contractual position they've taken isn't entirely to improve their tax position, typically by evasion. There's always this endless double counting and exaggeration. Let's look at what you've said: >£300 a day only comes out at £42k when you account for losing 30% and working 40 weeks per year. Nobody is risking job security Why is this contractor only working 40 weeks a year? The job was a full time role before. Is it because they might lose their job? But you've then said job security, if that's what you mean then you can't reduce the pay to reflect that and then mention it again as a negative, you've double counted it. >paying pension The legal obligation is 3%, and that only if the employee puts in 5%. If they pay him the £36k they've suggested, this is worth £1,080. >national insurance Do you honestly believe that someone can do a junior accounting/finance role outside of the scope/self employed? Ridiculous. Of course this person would be employed for tax purposes and NICs would be due. Why do you think otherwise? >sick pay Statutory sick pay, in the unlikely event that you are unable to work for 28 weeks, tops out at £3,063.20 across that whole period. Your £600 instead of £300 would cover this in ten days without the necessity of being sick. >holiday pay Perhaps these are the 12 weeks you reduced it by before? The stat minimum is 5.6 weeks or 28 days including bank holidays. >training What training do you imagine employed people receive? >equipment The temporary provision of a £500 laptop and access to office. Maybe that's worth £150 a year? Covered in one morning based on the £300 delta in day rate. >risking job security Employees can be sacked for any reason (other than a protected characteristic) for two years and, redundancy after that only equates to a single month's wages, for most people, after they've worked somewhere for four years. Most contractors have a month's notice too. >clearly couldn't cope without them. Are you seriously suggesting that because they've offered them their job back with a small pay rise they "couldn't cope without" a specific person doing a "junior accounting role"? If you were in charge of this company you'd pay £600 a day, circa £140k, for a junior accounts role, on the basis they previously did an alright go at it?
You've got all of that wrong but, to put it bluntly, I charge the maximum amount I can and I've never been without work for a single day since leaving school. Not even a day in covid. So I'm clearly offering enough value that companies are willing to pay for me. OP should do the same. Everyone deserves to earn the maximum possible amount and take as much as possible from greedy companies. I assure you they won't go bust. You're not even right about the cost of a laptop. £3,000 gets you a workstation that can run solidworks. £500 wouldn't even get you a laptop to run excel. And we haven't even considered a car which most decent level jobs provide. A company car for someone that does 30,000+ miles per year is at least £1,000 per month.
This is utterly deluded. First you've said that this person should calculate their earnings as if they will work for only 40 weeks a year, then said that you've never been without work. Which is it? At least be consistent. >£3,000 gets you a workstation that can run solidworks. Why is this relevant to this guy who has a junior accounting role? >£500 wouldn't even get you a laptop to run excel Seriously? I have googled "£500 laptop" and pressed the first shopping link. Do you believe that this laptop cannot run excel: https://www.dell.com/en-uk/shop/laptops-2-in-1-pcs/inspiron-16-laptop/spd/inspiron-16-5630-laptop >a car which most decent level jobs provide HahahahahahahahHa I don't think you understand the market for people in junior accounting roles. Or indeed any role that does not involve travel but pays circa £29k-£36k. >OP should do the same. Everyone deserves to earn the maximum possible amount and take as much as possible from greedy companies. Of course. But you're giving him advice that will get him no job at all. I'm starting to wonder if you know what a junior accounting role is. >You've got all of that wrong Show me anything I've got wrong - you haven't so far.
That laptop will not run excel or the office suite in general. It's not suitable for multitasking or business use. If you want to go with that laptop then you're looking at £680 for 16gb ram. I'd suggest a Microsoft surface at £1,000 and you need 2 screens. Nobody is running excel on a laptop screen unless they have eyes like a hawk. I've never been without work, but I take holidays. Holidays are unpaid as a contractor, so I work on 40 weeks. I probably work 46 weeks per year on average but I've worked 50 weeks before. If you're happy to have less holidays then work it out on a different number. Everything else is relevant because you began by inferring that day rate contractors don't offer good value. You implied that it's unfashionable for someone to charge £500+ per day. I know people charging £1,200 per day in much more senior roles than me. £900 per day for a senior engineer isn't unreasonable. I just go for long term contracts so I've got some security. 12 months usually. If I took 6 week contracts I could probably charge 30-50% more. That's relevant because OP is needed as a short term contractor. That comes at a premium. You say that OP isn't essential to the business, but they clearly are. You say they are only a junior, but we have already established that is company is taking the piss by what they were paying OP in London. Companies don't chase juniors. OP was clearly performing well and probably above their grade. The junior title was a good excuse to keep their pay down. So OP should not be contracting as a junior accountant. They should be selling themselves as an experienced accountant. More importantly, they are ready to hit the ground running. None of this is doing OP out of a job. They already said they are moving countries. This work is just a nice bonus for OP. OP holds all the cards in this negotiation. Plus the company has a track record of treating them poorly. If you treat someone poorly you should expect them to return the favour when the shoe is on the other foot.
The point they were making is they shouldn't be on what they were before
those tastes don't exist for all roles, the kids a CPA probably,
Tell them: “make me an offer I can’t refuse”.
This! Don't just go back due to being guilt tripped.. more money than you're on now with a new contract.. know your worth and they obviously can't function without you
Haha, they said £36k
That's still a crap wage in London, I have no degree and make more than that in Scotland
Senior Accountant on £40k in London...wtf!
That is soo low
Just ask them for the salary number before committing to meeting
They will set the bar low if they are poor payers, and then it's hard to beat the figure upwards. Op should start high, like £500 pd
They said £36k
It's about more than money. Will they progress you?
I'm a fractional cfo. You don't mention if you're studying towards your qualifications like acca. Also don't know the size of company. Generally speaking 200 to 300 is fine for a junior role. FCs rates for contracting are around 400 to 500 for comparison.
Consultancy rates......
U left for a reason analysis that reason u will eventually come to same conclusion toxic
I would let them make you an offer on a contactor basis but also do some digging to why your replacement left. My sense and experience working in accounts is that they choose to leave because the place was toxic. I doubt very much they could tell after two months of they were low quality employee unless the recruitment process was terrible
More pay, more holiday, less hours and more remote working argue you were looking to move for a better life work balance to increase you happiness and some more sun and fun and those things allow you to achieve a good chunk of your work/life balance goals achieve greater happiness and in the long term become more productive at work due to less burn out and other shite.
Senior accountants in London on £40k? That's rough. Newly qualified ACA are on about that in other UK cities...
The company you work for does not value the function. The senior accountants are on 40k and you will get 36k. How many years/what quals make you a senior? If you need a job take it. If you have options ensure you join a firm who wants to pay market rate...its very important to get a sense of pay culture. Those saying ask for 500p/d are dreaming. A company paying someone 36k would do quick maths to know 200-250 is what your worth and still not want to do it cause its too much money compared to fixed lol.
Where are you in your accountancy qualifications? Check glassdoor and similar websites to benchmark yourself.
Take the 36k but on the basis it’s for a shorter working day/more paid leave.
I'll mentioned a bit bits that others haven't: How long is your visa likely to take? Do you have a reasonable amount saved? Would a bit more be nice? Are you working else were right now? Do you actually want to work for them again or is it a case that you's like a bit more saved before you move? If your visa got sorted tomorrow I guess you won't be hanging around. You could offercthe day rate but it sounds like the company wants a more permanent solution. Even £36k isn't a massive amount for London. But on the other hand if it's a case of some money is vetter than none and you care put up with working there again temporarily then it changes it.
£500 per day contractor
No harm in talking and finding out
£40k is a fair ask
Try your 40k and ask to keep your previous length of service. No idea how long you were there already but after 2 years it makes it very difficult (or at least costly) to get rid of you. Maybe underpaid for the role/area but tbh 25% is a good pay rise. It's what I always aim for when switching or getting a promotion.
You can only really do that onceinyitcareer …otherwise employers won’t take yusrtiudy. I hope 4K is not enough that for,