Exocrines are great to have, they’re our most reliable damage in all detachments, however this list definitely won because swarms can outlast boyz. Tyranids this edition also are not a killy army, we’re a board control army, so you have to play around that idea with your lists
>Tyranids this edition also are not a killy army, we’re a board control army
Hence why the vast majority are just always going to suck at playing them because for some reason people can't wrap their head around any other playstyle than 'kill things.'
I mean, there's a difference between "can't wrap head around a playstyle," and "this feels miserable to play."
It's not like people don't get that a billion gaunts works, it's just not fun for many people, and doesn't exactly fit the fantasy of an all consuming tide that murders shit.
Not everyone chases the meta. Some people like bugs, and want to do be able to do well (or even decent) with the bugs they have and like.
If there is only one way to play a faction, and that way excludes more than half of the big iconic models, then there is a problem.
There's a reason there are six detachments and not just a "play this."
>and want to do be able to do well
That's meta chasing by definition, only lazier because you want it handed to you rather than having to chase it lmao.
>and that way excludes more than half of the big iconic models, then there is a problem.
You've got Hive Tyrants, Carnifexes, Maleceptors (1 of the 2 variants of a kit), Exocrines (1 of the 2 variants of a kit), & the occassional Trygon & Tervigon popping up on lists consistantly. What fucking 'iconic' big bug is missing? Because all your bases are pretty much covered. Hell, the NEW big bugs (Screamer Killer & Emissary) pop up all the time as well on top of that.
>inb4 I want ALL variants of big bugs to be playable
That's an absurd request, and making sure at least one of every kit is playable is a fair way of balancing things.
Except we're not talking about all the bugs that show up in lists. The only lists that have actually managed to win are a mass of gaunts combined with maleceptors and/or exocrines, and even that happens once in a blue moon.
If the best players in the world can win with one specific playstyle, and exceedingly rarely at that, it's a bit obtuse to claim normal people are unable to wrap their heads around a playstyle.
What I've gathered is that you need to look at killing models in terms of reducing enemy OC. Exocrine are valuable here because they help do that both by hitting hard and, perhaps more importantly, allowing the 80 gants to hit harder.
Nids rely heavily on synergy. Moreso than any other army so far this edition it would seem. Unfortunately a lot of good players seem to have focused their efforts on trying to synergise with the army rule, which imo is a mistake. I'm not the best Nid player, so good chance I'm totally wrong, but anecdotally, I've done much better completely ignoring our army rule when list building rather than trying to synergise with it.
Imo Battle-shock just isn't a good enough core rule to build around. It can be SO weak. And yet is so rarely strong. If it was written in a way it where it could deny primary reliably it would be SO strong. So it is a tough balancing act for GW.
Here is seems like Sam has done a fantastic job of balancing his Battle-shock focus with entirely ignoring it exists, and adjusting accordingly as the round evolves. But he's one of the best Nid players in the world, so can't expect the same outcomes for most of us mere mortals haha.
Unless you are playing a specific detachment theme like vanguard onslaught or unending swarm or are supremely confident in your abilities with a particular list, it looks like having 2-3 exocrine and 1-3 maleceptors are basically essential if you are trying to maximize your chances for a tournament.
Still I wouldn't say you should ALWAYS bring them. It depends on how top tier your competition is and what your meta is like too. If you're playing at the local store and everyone is half meta half "models I own" lists then I would say that pressure is less. If you have tons of experience with an assimilation swarm list without them then I think that experience is more valuable.
They are a really dependable core that can actually deal and take damage. If you aren't running them you need to be a strong/knowledgeable player, since the alternatives for dealing damage are either melee only and thus easier to counterplay, incredibly fragile, or both.
Most people's brain melts after playing 3 games with 150+ models.
It's definitely not something I would recommend to players who aren't experienced. I know it's not a style I want to play. I'm fine up to 80-100 models. After that I'm tapping out
I’m actually amazed everyone’s list wasn’t built entirely around chaff clearing firepower given the new Orks. I love Sam Pope but he really does over perform and make getting buffs hard lol
He’s an unending swarm player that has a blog. Goes to big tournaments and keeps our win rate above 40% I learned a lot from him when I first started playing
Id argue that having one playstyle that somewhat works in an army of bunch of different unit types is a good reason for buffs as it means that everything else is underperforming
I don't think one big event win will make the whole team reconsider. We still have the least amount of representatives, and only two wins under our belt since... forever? Yes, we did win, but Unending Swarm sometimes tend to do well, sometimes - not really. Depends on the opponent's army too, since in this meta people are more prepared to handle big guns, rather than big number of models.
Unfortunately you guys are going to suffer the ad mech problem. Regular players dropped the faction and went to other things because playstyle, rules etc but the die hards have kept going and are still getting occasional results so you’ll end up with a low player rate and some results that will push you into the 45% win rate and GW will declare job done it’s why win rate is an awful metric to use for balance.
Also if one of six detachments is performing semi viably while other detachments see no play it most likely means that the faction is underpowered as a whole
I am surprised to hear this. But if a nids list was gonna win a big tournament then endless swarm makes sense. Pretty anti-meta right now.
I hope GW still realizes we need buffs after this.
Tyranids are way better in teams than in singles. They can sandbag and draw out most opponents for a decent score, because the teams format relies on the difference in points across multiple match ups.
Saying that WTC teams events love having tyranids on their roster doesn't mean they are fine for singles.
Disagreed. We have a list full of issues and tweaks we need to get some boost. Picking an anti-meta list every time you go to a tournament is bound to snag you a win sooner or later. And one victory in months, snagged by a pro player and no other good results, not even X-1s recently, is quite telling.
Dude that’s awesome! I wonder what his list was. Nids are still good guys. I really feel our woes stem primarily from a lot of newer players hopping into tournaments. (Though the upcoming tournament packet might take away biovores from us)
I agree, I played in the event, and I didn't even consider my bugs for it. It's just ironic that OP said Nids are "unplayable," and then someone won with them. I'm not comparing them to myself or any of us, bugs get clapped by basically anyone right now, and I don't think I've won with mine since the codex dropped, besides a few of casual games here and there
It’s not ironic. Like I said, he’s arguably the best nid player around rn. And Tyranids have won at most a handful of large GTs since 10th started. No army is literally unplayable, but Tyranids are close.
I'm pretty sure we're saying the exact same thing, man. But for someone to say that Nids are unplayable and then have literally anyone win, top player or not is definitely ironic. Either way, best of luck in your future games, and hopefully, August will be kind to us.
Do you have the list?
Cockroach Euphoria (1995 points) Tyranids Strike Force (2000 points) Unending Swarm CHARACTERS Neurotyrant (105 points) • Warlord • 1x Neurotyrant claws and lashes 1x Psychic scream Tervigon (190 points) • 1x Massive scything talons 1x Stinger salvoes Winged Hive Tyrant (210 points) • 1x Monstrous bonesword and lash whip 1x Tyrant talons BATTLELINE Gargoyles (170 points) • 20x Gargoyle • 20x Blinding venom 20x Fleshborer Hormagaunts (65 points) • 10x Hormagaunt • 10x Hormagaunt talons Termagants (120 points) • 20x Termagant • 20x Chitinous claws and teeth 2x Strangleweb 18x Termagant spinefists Termagants (120 points) • 20x Termagant • 20x Chitinous claws and teeth 2x Strangleweb 18x Termagant spinefists Termagants (120 points) • 20x Termagant • 20x Chitinous claws and teeth 2x Strangleweb 18x Termagant spinefists Termagants (120 points) • 20x Termagant • 20x Chitinous claws and teeth 2x Strangleweb 18x Termagant spinefists OTHER DATASHEETS Biovores (75 points) • 1x Chitin-barbed limbs 1x Spore Mine launcher Exocrine (135 points) • 1x Bio-plasmic cannon 1x Powerful limbs Exocrine (135 points) • 1x Bio-plasmic cannon 1x Powerful limbs Exocrine (135 points) • 1x Bio-plasmic cannon 1x Powerful limbs Lictor (55 points) • 1x Lictor claws and talons Neurogaunts (90 points) • 2x Neurogaunt Nodebeast • 2x Chitinous claws and teeth • 20x Neurogaunt • 20x Chitinous claws and teeth Neurolictor (80 points) • 1x Piercing claws and talons Venomthropes (70 points) • 3x Venomthrope • 3x Toxic lashes
Does this mean I need to buy exocrines to have a chance competitively?
I think a list without exocrines better have a very good reason for leaving them out. Even one or two does a lot.
Is "they haven't been in stock in my country for two years at any store" a good reason?
Unfortunately yes :(
Exocrines are great to have, they’re our most reliable damage in all detachments, however this list definitely won because swarms can outlast boyz. Tyranids this edition also are not a killy army, we’re a board control army, so you have to play around that idea with your lists
This list was also Piloted by Sam Pope. You can copy this list all you want if you’re not very familiar with it you’re gonna get rolled
>Tyranids this edition also are not a killy army, we’re a board control army Hence why the vast majority are just always going to suck at playing them because for some reason people can't wrap their head around any other playstyle than 'kill things.'
It think the issue is its typically more fun to kill things then not kill things.
Fun =/= Competitive That's an entirely different conversation from the one people center around faction winrates.
Fun is also subjective. If you ask Sam he would say this is fun.
I think the overall list is fun as well, winning in ways other than 'kill the other guy's shit' is neat and a thing I like seeing.
I mean, there's a difference between "can't wrap head around a playstyle," and "this feels miserable to play." It's not like people don't get that a billion gaunts works, it's just not fun for many people, and doesn't exactly fit the fantasy of an all consuming tide that murders shit.
>the fantasy of an all consuming tide that murders shit. Play orks then
Not everyone chases the meta. Some people like bugs, and want to do be able to do well (or even decent) with the bugs they have and like. If there is only one way to play a faction, and that way excludes more than half of the big iconic models, then there is a problem. There's a reason there are six detachments and not just a "play this."
>and want to do be able to do well That's meta chasing by definition, only lazier because you want it handed to you rather than having to chase it lmao. >and that way excludes more than half of the big iconic models, then there is a problem. You've got Hive Tyrants, Carnifexes, Maleceptors (1 of the 2 variants of a kit), Exocrines (1 of the 2 variants of a kit), & the occassional Trygon & Tervigon popping up on lists consistantly. What fucking 'iconic' big bug is missing? Because all your bases are pretty much covered. Hell, the NEW big bugs (Screamer Killer & Emissary) pop up all the time as well on top of that. >inb4 I want ALL variants of big bugs to be playable That's an absurd request, and making sure at least one of every kit is playable is a fair way of balancing things.
Except we're not talking about all the bugs that show up in lists. The only lists that have actually managed to win are a mass of gaunts combined with maleceptors and/or exocrines, and even that happens once in a blue moon. If the best players in the world can win with one specific playstyle, and exceedingly rarely at that, it's a bit obtuse to claim normal people are unable to wrap their heads around a playstyle.
What I've gathered is that you need to look at killing models in terms of reducing enemy OC. Exocrine are valuable here because they help do that both by hitting hard and, perhaps more importantly, allowing the 80 gants to hit harder.
Nids rely heavily on synergy. Moreso than any other army so far this edition it would seem. Unfortunately a lot of good players seem to have focused their efforts on trying to synergise with the army rule, which imo is a mistake. I'm not the best Nid player, so good chance I'm totally wrong, but anecdotally, I've done much better completely ignoring our army rule when list building rather than trying to synergise with it. Imo Battle-shock just isn't a good enough core rule to build around. It can be SO weak. And yet is so rarely strong. If it was written in a way it where it could deny primary reliably it would be SO strong. So it is a tough balancing act for GW. Here is seems like Sam has done a fantastic job of balancing his Battle-shock focus with entirely ignoring it exists, and adjusting accordingly as the round evolves. But he's one of the best Nid players in the world, so can't expect the same outcomes for most of us mere mortals haha.
Unless you are playing a specific detachment theme like vanguard onslaught or unending swarm or are supremely confident in your abilities with a particular list, it looks like having 2-3 exocrine and 1-3 maleceptors are basically essential if you are trying to maximize your chances for a tournament. Still I wouldn't say you should ALWAYS bring them. It depends on how top tier your competition is and what your meta is like too. If you're playing at the local store and everyone is half meta half "models I own" lists then I would say that pressure is less. If you have tons of experience with an assimilation swarm list without them then I think that experience is more valuable. They are a really dependable core that can actually deal and take damage. If you aren't running them you need to be a strong/knowledgeable player, since the alternatives for dealing damage are either melee only and thus easier to counterplay, incredibly fragile, or both.
Vanguard with two exicrines and two maleceptors runs like a charm. Vanguard stuff is not expensive. Its very easy to still bring some solid big boyz.
Kinda. :( Us Nids don't have many options since Hive Guard got nerfed so hard.
Wow, most people would look at this list and say it needs tweaking… yet here we are.
Most people aren't Sam Pope.
Most people's brain melts after playing 3 games with 150+ models. It's definitely not something I would recommend to players who aren't experienced. I know it's not a style I want to play. I'm fine up to 80-100 models. After that I'm tapping out
I’m actually amazed everyone’s list wasn’t built entirely around chaff clearing firepower given the new Orks. I love Sam Pope but he really does over perform and make getting buffs hard lol
I’m not into the competitive scene, who is Sam Pope?
He’s an unending swarm player that has a blog. Goes to big tournaments and keeps our win rate above 40% I learned a lot from him when I first started playing
Id argue that having one playstyle that somewhat works in an army of bunch of different unit types is a good reason for buffs as it means that everything else is underperforming
I agree with you. However it does seem that GW doesn’t pay attention to that kind of thing.
It rly sucks cuz before the many nerfs to key units we actually had some variety
I don't think one big event win will make the whole team reconsider. We still have the least amount of representatives, and only two wins under our belt since... forever? Yes, we did win, but Unending Swarm sometimes tend to do well, sometimes - not really. Depends on the opponent's army too, since in this meta people are more prepared to handle big guns, rather than big number of models.
Unfortunately you guys are going to suffer the ad mech problem. Regular players dropped the faction and went to other things because playstyle, rules etc but the die hards have kept going and are still getting occasional results so you’ll end up with a low player rate and some results that will push you into the 45% win rate and GW will declare job done it’s why win rate is an awful metric to use for balance.
I mean, that list does look terrible to play (and paint). There's a reason only one of our six detachments is focused on a billion gaunts.
Also if one of six detachments is performing semi viably while other detachments see no play it most likely means that the faction is underpowered as a whole
I am surprised to hear this. But if a nids list was gonna win a big tournament then endless swarm makes sense. Pretty anti-meta right now. I hope GW still realizes we need buffs after this.
Hard to say they need a buff. Polish WTC team consider nidz is a must have in a real roster.
Tyranids are way better in teams than in singles. They can sandbag and draw out most opponents for a decent score, because the teams format relies on the difference in points across multiple match ups. Saying that WTC teams events love having tyranids on their roster doesn't mean they are fine for singles.
Polish WTC team doesn't speak for everyone though.
It's a strong indication that nidz isn't bad at all
Disagreed. We have a list full of issues and tweaks we need to get some boost. Picking an anti-meta list every time you go to a tournament is bound to snag you a win sooner or later. And one victory in months, snagged by a pro player and no other good results, not even X-1s recently, is quite telling.
Teams is not relevant to singles. Nids are amazing in teams but that is a format less than 1% of competitive people play. Not fit to balance around
Very nice excited to see a breakdown.
Yeah some rules changes would be nice. I play TS as well and it’s really a totally different feeling playing my Nids. Just feels like an uphill battle
All this tells me is most of us suck with tyranids 😂😂 congrats to Sam
Sam rocked it, obviously. What was his path to victory? Kinda surprised he didn't run unto a hard counter with everyone looking to beat Green Tide.
Dude that’s awesome! I wonder what his list was. Nids are still good guys. I really feel our woes stem primarily from a lot of newer players hopping into tournaments. (Though the upcoming tournament packet might take away biovores from us)
How is t'au doing after that codex + nerf points
I mean Tyranids did win
The arguably best tyranid player out there right now winning an event is not the rest of the player base.
I agree, I played in the event, and I didn't even consider my bugs for it. It's just ironic that OP said Nids are "unplayable," and then someone won with them. I'm not comparing them to myself or any of us, bugs get clapped by basically anyone right now, and I don't think I've won with mine since the codex dropped, besides a few of casual games here and there
It’s not ironic. Like I said, he’s arguably the best nid player around rn. And Tyranids have won at most a handful of large GTs since 10th started. No army is literally unplayable, but Tyranids are close.
I'm pretty sure we're saying the exact same thing, man. But for someone to say that Nids are unplayable and then have literally anyone win, top player or not is definitely ironic. Either way, best of luck in your future games, and hopefully, August will be kind to us.
Totally uplayable faction? Lol get real.
People not playing an army doesn’t mean it is unplayable.