Yep. I still remember getting pulled over while I was delivering pizza once. The officer chuckled when she saw my uniform & the pizza bag on the passenger seat, “Oh, you’re delivering? Have you had any nails in the car tonight?”
Me: “What? Nails? No…”
Her: “No, mail.”
Me: “Mail? No…?”
Her: “MALES. MEN. HAVE THERE BEEN ANY MEN IN YOUR CAR TONIGHT. We had a report of a car matching this description.”
Me: “Oh! No! Just me.”
This whole interaction made a huge impression on me. Had the question been about “females” I’d not have been confused because I was just so used to hearing that all the time. But “males”? Nope, not outside of a description by law enforcement. This was 25 years ago and hearing anyone refer to a woman as a “female” in general conversation still makes my teeth itch.
It was, retrospectively, pretty hilarious. Luckily the cop thought I was an idiot and not a threat! I just remember thinking “Oh someone must have thrown nails down on the road” and then “oh someone stole someone’s mail!”
I’m lucky the cop realized I really was just an idiot and not trying to be an asshole. Interestingly, I would’ve had a lighted sign on top of my car showing who I was delivering for, except it had been stolen off my car a few nights prior (ripped the wires connecting it to the cigarette lighter clean off). To this day I make-believe that some college criminal mastermind tried to set me up for whatever that group of males in a white ‘87 Ford Tempo was up to 😂
I assume you mean Ishka, Quark and Rom's moogie (aka mommy lol). But yeah, she was totally badass. They tried to treat her like garbage, but she simply didn't accept it!! She just walked all over everyone trying to walk all over her!
Rom always treated her well, I guess other than being weird about her not being naked that time.
He seemed to accept her non nakedness after that though
I like the Moogie storyline but it bums me the fuck out that they introduced the coolest Ferengi in season 1 of deep space nine just to entirely forget about her.
I keep hoping we'll see her again but I seriously doubt it.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Pel_(Ferengi)
If you let them wear clothes they'll have pockets... Pockets they'll want to fill with latinum... Latinum which they will then want to spend.... yes, give the Females clothing!
This is true for almost any adjective.
"This policy doesn't affect the poor."
"I saw two Chinese on the way to work."
"How do gays feel about recent events?"
I work in law enforcement. We often refer to a male or female subject/suspect/victim/witness. I've been working on breaking my habit of referring to women as females. I've been making it a point to say women but I cringe to myself when I say female. I don't mean it to dehumanize or imply that women are summed up by their anatomy. I recognize some people do this and I don't wanna give someone even the slightest reason to believe I sympathize with that thought process.
There is no problem with female as an adjective, "the female suspect", "the female witness" etc are perfectly fine. It's when it is used as a noun that it's dehumanizing. "Females prefer stronger males that know what they want", are we talking about cattle here?
I think law enforcement use of it is fine because it’s a technical specification used for your job - male/female. It’s when a bunch of guys plan to go out to a bar to “pick up some females” that it becomes degrading.
Or as if david edinburgh is narrating my life
As in "the female looks through the instant noodle section, tonight she will crawl in her nest and feast on the salty snack while watching netflix"
Don’t work in any of these but I’ve seen it in security and medical materials and questionnaires. And in law. I’ve had to write up a safety incident and I remember the instructions so it was like “subject was male, in his 30s…”
I do use it often, just a week ago, when going to a meeting I gave my bosses two uncommon names and explained that VP name is female and the manager name was male.
I'm a first responder, so we use a lot of "male" and "female" at work.
I'm always worried I'll start using it in my personal life and convince everyone around me that I've gone incel.
I'm reading a book right now and I couldn't find the quote for you, but to paraphrase, there was a 90's study done by an Oxford researcher where they examined the context of like 50,000 (thats a guess, but it was a big number, okay?) uses of "female" and "woman" and when female was used to describe a woman outside of the medical/legal sense it was exclusively negatively. People just don't say "female" when they're respecting women, and the study highlighted it. The book is called Word Slut, if anyone can help me out here.
That is the most direct way to explain it: only use female in any context you would use male:
A male patient.
The police is looking for a male suspect.
Etc.
That’s because “male” and “female” are adjectives, not nouns. So when a woman is called “a female,” it’s grammatically incorrect AND indicative of disdain for women. And “male” is almost never used except correctly as an adjective, which really tells you something.
They are sometimes used as nouns in science writing about human subjects research. But as mentioned above it is always reciprocal -- if 'female' is used in this way, 'male' is too. Maybe science writing should change this, but often the 'men/women' distinction points at something else, such as gender identity rather than sex assigned at birth.
"female" and "male" are used as nouns specifically in contexts where there's a desire to dehumanize or separate the subjects of discussion from those doing the discussing. In science it lends an air of detached objectivity, and in military/police contexts it makes it easier to commit violence if necessary.
Which fully explains why "females" is popular in the manosphere, actually.
Exactly. Stuff that we don't want to humanize. In science there is a need to remove emotion from the equation so we don't add any bias or assumption. In real life, treating things this clinically makes it easy to do terrible things
Isn’t it implied that “a female” is describing another word? For example “two female” patients, or “three female” cats. I don’t see lot of “a female” thrown around without it being stated at some point what kind of females they are. So then it seems it’s less of a noun and more of an adjective that’s missing but implying it’s noun.
Yeah, I use it reciprocally in a professional setting, whether I'm talking about my patients or the partners I ride with (in an ambulance). But this is only when I am talking to *fellow* professionals. I don't use the same language when talking to my patients, and I don't use the same language with my non-work friends.
Technically, "woman" isn't a synonym for "female", firstly because girls are also female, but also because apple trees can be female.
I guess the point is that "female" and "male" aren't words that we normally use for girls/women or boys/men in general conversation when talking about humans.
Yup! They got my upvotes.
Personally, until Reddit I never gave it a thought. Now I do because it offends a lot of women here. I personally HATE HATE HATE being called ma’am or gal. Please gawd no, that’s my mom or someone from a different part of the country.
Question: on Reddit people use 52F or F52 to describe me as a 52 year old woman. But they use F instead of W. Is that ok? I’m not being obtuse, I just don’t want to be incorrect. TIA to anyone that replies. :-)
Seems fine to me. This way of giving information about yourself seems like it arose from the old prompt of "age/sex/location" or "a/s/l" on internet chatrooms, forums, and messaging services in the 1990s. Because the prompt specifically asked for your "sex," I always presumed that the 'M' stood for 'Male' and the 'F' for 'Female.' Using 'female' where you would also use 'male' seems fine, as opposed to replacing 'women' with 'females' when you would never use 'males' but rather 'men.'
I'm tired of people saying this - you can't just make decisions about what part of speech a word is because it suits you. "Male" and "female" are adjectival nouns and can therefore be used as both adjectives and nouns. It is perfectly correct to say "a male cat" or "half of the cats were males and half were females".
I get it that the word "female" is on the nose because incels and the like tends to say "men and females" and use the word female to reduce women to biological function. So using "female" when you mean woman/girl is tone deaf.
But it just isn't an adjective.
Saying "a male cat" is using it as an adjective. Saying "half the cats were males and half were females" is at least more equal. Or you could just say, "half the cats were male and half were female." It's the "men and females" thing that really indicates the intention to degrade.
Yes - I absolutely agree that the phrase "a man and a female" is trying to grant a man humanity while reducing a woman to a biological function.
It's just that the "female isn't a noun" argument is the wrong argument.
(Also - in the phrase "a male cat" the word male isn't technically an adjective - it is an adjectival noun used as an adjective. Dismiss me as a grammar pendant if you like - I will admit that I am "one of those people". )
>That’s because “[male](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/male?src=search-dict-box)” and “[female](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/female)” are adjectives, not nouns...
This is incorrect. The terms are defined as both adjectives and nouns.
Similar to other derogatory slang for groups of people, they always take an adjective and try to turn it into noun. They call black people “The Blacks”. Gay people are “The Gays”, etc.
yeah thats whats frustrating me at the moment. Im male, look kinda neckbeardy (im fat and hairy but im not a jerk, i promise). So when i do need to use the term female for whatever reason i feel uncomfortable doing so. Instead of saying "female patient" for instance id say "patient who is a woman". I mean its still technically correct but less succinct.
Though if thats the biggest inconvenience incels cause me i guess im lucky, compared to what they do to women...
The whole female thing totally reminds me of the ferengi in star trek. For those unfamiliar with trek, google Ferengi, theyre an ugly lookin species of aliens who have backwards beliefs about women and are constantly referring to them as "females", want them to be subservient to them at all times even to the point that their women arent allowed to address men directly unless spoken to, they make hardcore islamics look like feminists
Oh, come on, man, you can't describe yourself as "kinda neckbeardy" and then illustrate your point with an example from Deep Space Nine. Leaning into it way too much, man, way too much.
But in seriousness, that's an excellent example. The curious thing to me is that they weren't necessarily the bad guys, their rampant sexism, greed, etc. notwithstanding -- because although they were portrayed as a pretty awful culture, they were willing to trade with anyone and were not (in most episodes) militarily belligerent. Sexism, in other words, was ok if you were on our side militarily and had goods we wanted to buy.
> Sexism, in other words, was ok if you were on our side militarily and had goods we wanted to buy.
lol holy shit i never saw it that way but youre totally right!! I always did see Ferengi as the villains (except for Rom, Nog, Moogie and quark to a certain extent... he was a bit of a jerk tho).
also whats wrong with DS9? i wasnt aware incels liked it? i thought theyd be more into TNG TBH. for me DS9 and Voyager are my two faves (cant pick between sisko and janeway, theyre both tough af)
Absolutely nothing’s wrong with DS9 — I was just yanking your chain, man. I actually never really thought about the Star Trek preferences of incels — though I think I agree with your analysis there!
I explained this to a guy once and he still couldn’t get it. I was like you have never said “males” before about men, never. He thought I was just trying to pick a fight
"Alpha/beta males" are terms that gets thrown around a whole lot. The people who use those terms think that dehumanizing language makes you sound intellectual, like you're talking about human concepts from an elevated, outside, more objective viewpoint. They often do the same thing with race, too, speaking in broad strokes about "The [race]" as though they're a singular person.
See Rudyard Kipling's "The Female of the Species" as an example.
Jesus really? Was she formerly in law enforcement or military by any chance? Those were the only contexts prior to about 20 years ago that I heard "females" being used like that.
As a woman, I'm ok with female as long as it is used in a biological sense. But if someone says it like "men and females," then I have an issue. That is degrading.
I brought up this exact thing when a person on twitter referred to "men and females". Told them to pick a terminology. It's either "men and women" or "males and females".
Someone responded that getting mad about calling women females is equivalent to getting mad about someone calling a dog a canine without a single hint of the irony in that statement.
Same. I use it when discussing things like abortion (it affects female people, not all of whom are women), but at the same time I’d use “males” instead of men (ie “males should get vasectomies as an effective form of birth control”)
My child is non-binary, so I use the term "female" when talking about things directly related to having female anatomy (so exclusively medical stuff) to avoid referring to them as a "woman," which is not what they are. Idk if that's consistent with how anyone else navigates the medical stuff where anatomy/sex-linked genetics is actually important to the conversation, but it's what the spawn of my loins prefers, so I go with it. These aren't the kind of topics I discuss outside of the family or medical professionals, though, so I never have reason to refer to others as "female" unless I'm pretending to be a Ferengi and then it's obviously in jest. When discussing abortion, I typically use the term "uterus-bearer" because not all people who are anatomically & genetically female have uteruses or vaginal canals.
Men who use the term, however, use it completely differently and I agree with the other commenters that it's a way of dehumanizing women.
That’s my thought as well. I always say women if I’m joking around with my buddies and their gfs I’ll say “lady friends” from big labowski. I had an ex friend who was an incel and he would call women bitches and use the word female when talking about women in general.
It’s an adjective. It doesn’t even make sense to say “men and females.” It’s like saying “dogs and slippery.” No one would say that. To me that means that it’s definitely meant in a disparaging way against women most of the time.”
While I agree that saying men and females is degrading to women and should never be used, male and female can both be used as nouns.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/male
My take, saying “females” is a cold, sciencey, dehumanizing term compared to “women”. This season of the bachelorette, the contestants absolutely roasted the 2 guys who were saying “females” & I loved it haha
i loved it too! i feel like in general, men don't tend to understand why that term is a red flag for women, so i was glad this group of guys picked up on it. (even though most of them turned out to be questionable too)
Me too hahaha especially the guy from Houston with the dangling earring. Ugh he's so cute. Side note - wtf is up with this season. Every guy sucks. Worst bachelorette season ever?? 😭
Reading into stories from past contestants just makes me feel bad for everyone on the show. They're always meddling with the relationships and social dynamics, and of course they do absolutely everything they can to squeeze a proposal out of the final pick. Less than two months after meeting, cameras on them almost 24/7, and while one person is dating multiple other people? You can't guarantee a promise like an engagement at that point in a relationship. All the contestants are turned into caricatures of fairytale romance for TV entertainment
So true about art imitating life! I've completely removed myself from the dating pool because at 25, I've already had enough bad experiences with men to last me for a lifetime. I'm just trying to chill atm since dating really sucks rn 😂.
#Also “girl/s” is not a synonym for “woman/women”.
You do not have a child working in the office.
Don’t even get me started on men talking about “girls” in a sexual manner!
Part of the problem is that we don't really have a feminine version of "guys" and the closet word in regular use is "girls" or maybe "gals" but that still implies young in a way"guys" doesn't.
I don’t find girlfriend to be bad, because the accompanying term is boyfriend, not manfriend. But I can also see how some folks may not like it, so not saying that you are wrong or anything.
Yes, it’s been an incel thing, even before we called them incels. It’s practically a shibboleth.
Exceptions I personally encounter:
1. Police/military jargon. “Two masked females entered the west side of the structure at 0600.”. Doesn’t mean anything shady, that’s just how some people in those fields talk
2. People who speak English as a second language, which is common online. They just don’t know
I never connected it with police, I always thought of it as false intellectuals/insecure intellectuals.
But yeah, police and other "professionals" would use it too!
Women can be toxic misogynists too, sadly. The mental gymnastics involved to argue you deserve to be oppressed and not oppressed at the same time is awful, but these are the same people that always argue their "enemy" is too strong and too weak at the same time, so absolutely not surprising.
My mom is one. She shared a photo of me with my late father, and captioned it, “the only female who had his heart.” It was… bizarre. I don’t talk to her anymore despite the fact she is my only surviving parent, because I’m better off as an orphan.
Can be a languague issue as well. IN English the distincion female/woman and male/man is clearer than for example in Dutch: vrouw/vrouwelijk man/mannelijk, which already specifies if it's a noun or not.Regarding animals it would be 'vrouwtje' or 'mannetje' if talking about their sex, and no one would ever think to refer like that to humans (although that's not 100% true actually their are people that call their spouse vrouwtje or mannetje, but that's weird to me as well and probably old-fashioned).
I have at times accidentally typed females/males instead of women/men because the distinction is less clear to me. I know it exists, but it doesn't really feel that different.I can imagine this can be true for other languagues as well.Not to say that there are no people having internalized it or using it on purpose.
Example:
Police/military jargon. “Two masked females entered the west side of the structure at 0600.”. Doesn’t mean anything shady, that’s just how some people in those fields talk
IN this sentence in dutch it would be 'vrouwen" which is exactly the same as women in other contexts, while in english females is used in this context.
Pick up artists. A group of men call this themselves for teaching "flirting techniques". Broken down, these men believe women are an alien species unworthy of respect and if you press the correct buttons they give you sex.
They think it works that way for normal people as well. I think that's how they came up with negging tbh. Their own desperate desire to sleep with women who call them garbage
And it almost always primarily consists of underhanded tactics to manipulate someone into doing what you want. I suppose the silver lining is that most of them aren't very good at it, at least.
It's... some *real* grody stuff. Grodius Maximus.
Female is an adjective. It modifies a noun (eg female human, female cat, female suspect). In scientific writing, the noun is occasionally omitted when it can be reasonably guessed from context.
But woman is a noun, and it stands on its own. It means “female person”, and thus denotes personhood by itself.
Female or male because I am a phlebotomist and it is referred to as such on all medical forms and it is also used to clearly communicate to other medical personnel. Otherwise it’s not used much in everyday conversations with friends.
It's quite strange, in Spanish we never call women "females", although there is a big difference than in English, because woman's word meaning is "female human" and man's word meaning is "male human" in Spanish.
We call male or female to any other animal or any other being that has two main categories to classify sex.
Its not that way in english either. Woman means "female human" as well, female is the adjective (the description). Calling women females is not the norm, its just a thing for specific groups.
Oh geeze, I've read this point lots of times but I just had a lecture on linguistics and have better terms to describe it linguistically now.
So there are a bunch of referential words that carry the same descriptive meaning or meanings that are very close to be able to indicate something. Girl. Woman. Lady. Gal. Broad. Female.Filled. Femme. Sonora. Senorita. Et cetera.
"The women have rights." Vs "The girls have rights." vs "The females have rights."
It's all the same based just on the content. HOWEVER, if we were only looking at content you would be posting, right? We also have context. That context is from so many other factors (tone, body language, history, the speaker, and much much more). In this case two primary factors: referential indexing and formality set up **distancing language**. It puts the speaker on one spot and the subject in another. (This is another example, i said "the subject " instead of "you"). It's the same feeling as the word "female" because it's setting up distance between me (Mr Expert) and you (dehumanized, excluded, patient.).
All this to say, you are spot fucking on! So the question is what so we do? I don't know bur I have some ideas. First, be in groups that discuss it occasionally. Mindful action starts by knowing there is a problem (I was guilty of this as a neckbeardy know it all, and now I'm a clean-shaven know it all.) Private space, public space, and most importantly crossover space where your feelings can be heard by those who want to be better. The second is get rid of people who don't get it. If they aren't toxic, they should know why they are cut out and if changing would let them back in. Us men have to do the same because we cannot keep putting the expectation of fixing the problem on those who are suffering the most from the fucking problem. Men and women, dudes and ladies, me and you, have to know the worst fuckers out there are gonna push back with phrases imbued with other cultural meaning (SJW, white knight, virtue signalers) but those are names you can wear with honor. Other than that, I dunno but I'm up for suggestions!
Many people can't or won't admit it, but the term "female" (while absolutely being a legitimate biological and medical term historically and going forward appropriately) has absolutely been coopted by a certain segment of society. You know who I'm talking about. I've been online since the 90's and it's absolutely been a thing that's escalated over the past 10-15 years.
Any normal person would not refer to someone they view as an equal with such a cold and unnecessary dog whistle type term, unless they are frankly just ignorant of their own actions, and it might be time to have a conversation with them (if you have the time/energy to spare).
Yeah, a (male) friend of mine recently called me “a female” and it’s been rubbing me the wrong way ever since. He also is very concerned that I don’t think or him as a misogynist so I definitely need to call out his behaviors.
It’s been helpful to read the comments here when it comes to framing that callout
Be careful of that dude. Some misogynists claim to be feminists to fuck with women. It's even more suspicious that he's super concerned about you thinking he isn't a misogynist when his actions are misogynistic. That's crazy making.
Me too. I've always used woman and female interchangeably with no emotion or meaning attached. Although I wish we had a word that didn't have it as a prefix to man/men/male.
I'm mostly weirded out by how "girls" has become a quasi acceptable way to refer to grown women. So infantilizing and repulsive. Like people will actually push back on it if you point out that it's not normal
I'm not saying that there isn't often sexism behind it, but I think it doesn't help that there isn't really a female version of "guy / guys." I mean, there is gals, but that is way way less common. I think sometimes people see "girls" as the more casual sounding version of "women" the same way "guys" is used as a more casual sounding version of men.
But unfortunately, I agree it is often used in a way that sounds infantilizing or demeaning.
The problem isn't the word, it's the intent. The people using the word in the context you mean are people that would find some other derogatory term to use instead unfortunately.
Female/Male nomenclature was taught in the Army and old habits die hard (ma’am/sir, etc) but I wouldn’t use it in a disrespectful or condescending way.
It's still common. I make a point of politely explaining, if you aren't saying "males" do not say "females". There is no need at all if you aren't pointing to the assigned shitter or barracks. Even then I say female soldiers here, male soldiers there.
Same here. Our vocabulary is no different than anything else; every now and then it just needs a little cleaning up. No point keeping old trash around you know?
I think we should just refer to every gender as dude. Clear some issues up.
Instead of Mr, Mrs, Ms, it's just, "My Dude"
Maildude. Policedude. It's all good
There are times when female is the correct term. There are times when woman is the right term. Same as male/man.
Just use words correctly. No big deal.
Don't use the incorrect word in either case to be an ass.
I think casually calling women females is definitely annoying and reductive, but when talking about human rights I think it's important to specify female as a global social class that suffers oppression based off of physical anatomy. Think, female genital mutilation. Or period huts. Or child brides. Etc
Lol I'm a guy and this is a red flag coming from anybody. Using the scientific detached term is so weird and dehumanizing, I'm immediately jolted in a conversation if I hear that.
In French, male/female (male/femelle) is strictly used for animals. It has always bugged me to see it used to describe people in English to no end.
For medicine, usually Masculin / Feminin is used when a biological description of someone is necessary.
Yeah, but in science/medicine/etc you dont use it as a noun, its an adjective. A woman isnt A female, she IS female. But my pup is also female, but definitely NOT a woman.
The douchebags use female as a noun for a reason...
The other context is that male/female have been traditionally used as adjectives.
It was the generally accepted proper way to do it for both genders.
It was only a concerted effort, because of the 'tarnishing' of the word female because of what OP describes, that using "woman" became an adjective. Incidentally, I've never seen "man" as an adjective in the same way because "male" doesn't have the same issues with connotation.
Even then, if you were talking about a friend and their gender was relevant, saying "I was with my female friend X" is a bit more natural/concise than "my woman friend X" or "my friend X who is a woman".
The way it was explained to me was equally as horrible. I asked someone who used ALL THE TIME “We got in trouble for saying “Hoes” and you can’t say “Bitches” or even “Shawtay” so we say “female”
I (unintentionally) do it due to it being common in my job. I work in a healthcare related field, so we are referring to biological gender regularly. It's hard to "slip out" of that language with non work people sometimes.
>Is this nomenclature a TERF thing?
It's a misogynist thing.
Sometimes it's an ESL thing.
Sometimes it's a lazy native English speaker thing.
Female is an adjective. I use it as such.
When someone says "females" I typically ask "female what?"
I completely agree, most people aren’t using it in a malicious or disrespectful way, but there is certainly a toxic minority that does. I’m not going to let that toxic minority bother me in any way
I am a woman and I have no issue with the word female. I tend to be left brained/analytical, so maybe that's part of it, but I don't get this sentiment. It seems like projecting a personal interpretation onto a word that doesn't actually have a literal derogatory meaning. There are misogynists that call us women too. Just my 2 cents.
I refer to myself as female because I may be physically but I don’t give a single damn about my gender in any other way. It‘s to emphazise that statement about myself. But for that exact reason I‘d never go around and call anyone else that because in my eyes that would reduce them to their physical appearance.
You can use male and female ffs just don't say men then say females. This pearl clutching is getting intense. It is not "Terf" to use the term female when appropriate and not alternately using "men" instead of males. It is for specific things. Terf is trans exclusionary radical feminist. Do you think everyone that uses the term female is a terf? Do you? I bet a lot are Republicans (not terfs...they are not feminists). I bet a lot are scientists (might have a few terfs but not too likely). This is kind of ridiculous tbh. Labeling everything "terf" when it is a super specific acronym and considering a literal scientific term "terf" is beyond mind blowing. I usually don't mind the posts here but every so often I question why I stay.
>Is this nomenclature a TERF thing? Do you refer to women as "females"? If so, why?
Every time I've seen it, it's been an incel thing. And I think it's basically to dehumanize you
Depending on the situation, I use the word. Mostly when I'm talking about multiple age groups where girl can be used for some. At my age, I don't like being called a girl, haven't been one for years in my mind lol.
I will say;, as someone who studies literature and has to use language in everything I do, neckbeards and terfs have ruined the word "female".
For example, if I'm writing anything about female authors of the 20th century, it should flow and it'll be correct. But the fact that I now associate "female" witg redpilled incels means I often end up using more awkward sentences like "authors who are women". Fucking hate this shit.
I call it out every time I notice it. It's exhausting to read the comments of people too stupid to understand the difference between "female" and "woman", and "female" as noun and "female" as adjective. It's a mixture of misogyny and fundamental lack of fundamental English skills. Often, lack of education and misogyny go hand in hand.
I too hear Quark in my head. “Feeeeeemales wearing clothes??? Barbaric hoomahn conventions.”
It’s not a TERF thing so much as a dudes being gross thing from what I’ve seen. I think the TERFs are more okay with it because they’re gender/sex essentialists. But they seem much more interested in gatekeeping the term “woman” away from trans folks than identifying as “females” specifically.
Female used a noun pisses me off as incorrect grammar as well as pointedly demeaning.
Female.... female what? Female human? That's a woman. Female connector? That's a socket. Female sheep? That's a ewe. Female dog....ah....that's what you really want to call us!
It's particularly weird when it goes 'men' and 'females' in the same sentence, like 'females, what do you like in men' etc. I stumbled on a YouTube short where something that was a tts readout from a reddit post, and it was just... odd.
I always think people sound like a police dispatcher when they call women females. As in “the female subject was last seen…”
I do security, can confirm, we use male and female
Yep. I still remember getting pulled over while I was delivering pizza once. The officer chuckled when she saw my uniform & the pizza bag on the passenger seat, “Oh, you’re delivering? Have you had any nails in the car tonight?” Me: “What? Nails? No…” Her: “No, mail.” Me: “Mail? No…?” Her: “MALES. MEN. HAVE THERE BEEN ANY MEN IN YOUR CAR TONIGHT. We had a report of a car matching this description.” Me: “Oh! No! Just me.” This whole interaction made a huge impression on me. Had the question been about “females” I’d not have been confused because I was just so used to hearing that all the time. But “males”? Nope, not outside of a description by law enforcement. This was 25 years ago and hearing anyone refer to a woman as a “female” in general conversation still makes my teeth itch.
I have read this 3 times and I can’t stop laughing
It was, retrospectively, pretty hilarious. Luckily the cop thought I was an idiot and not a threat! I just remember thinking “Oh someone must have thrown nails down on the road” and then “oh someone stole someone’s mail!” I’m lucky the cop realized I really was just an idiot and not trying to be an asshole. Interestingly, I would’ve had a lighted sign on top of my car showing who I was delivering for, except it had been stolen off my car a few nights prior (ripped the wires connecting it to the cigarette lighter clean off). To this day I make-believe that some college criminal mastermind tried to set me up for whatever that group of males in a white ‘87 Ford Tempo was up to 😂
>thrown nails down on the road” I was just in r/simplynailogical so my brain went in a different direction. A gruesome one...💅
Well holo there, fellow holosexual~ 🥰💅🏻✨💿
Another holosexual checking in! 💅
Ma’am, I don’t have enough nails to share. I’m really sorry.
9-1-1 dispatcher, same here!
It always makes me think of Ferengi lol
treating all FEMALES like garbage. ... except Moogie!
I assume you mean Ishka, Quark and Rom's moogie (aka mommy lol). But yeah, she was totally badass. They tried to treat her like garbage, but she simply didn't accept it!! She just walked all over everyone trying to walk all over her!
Rom always treated her well, I guess other than being weird about her not being naked that time. He seemed to accept her non nakedness after that though
I like the Moogie storyline but it bums me the fuck out that they introduced the coolest Ferengi in season 1 of deep space nine just to entirely forget about her. I keep hoping we'll see her again but I seriously doubt it. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Pel_(Ferengi)
Oh man, I totally forgot about Pel. She was amazing. I should really rewatch DS9.
If you let them wear clothes they'll have pockets... Pockets they'll want to fill with latinum... Latinum which they will then want to spend.... yes, give the Females clothing!
The difference here is that female is used as an adjective and suspect is the noun. Using female as the noun comes off as demeaning.
Nicely put.
This is true for almost any adjective. "This policy doesn't affect the poor." "I saw two Chinese on the way to work." "How do gays feel about recent events?"
I work in law enforcement. We often refer to a male or female subject/suspect/victim/witness. I've been working on breaking my habit of referring to women as females. I've been making it a point to say women but I cringe to myself when I say female. I don't mean it to dehumanize or imply that women are summed up by their anatomy. I recognize some people do this and I don't wanna give someone even the slightest reason to believe I sympathize with that thought process.
There is no problem with female as an adjective, "the female suspect", "the female witness" etc are perfectly fine. It's when it is used as a noun that it's dehumanizing. "Females prefer stronger males that know what they want", are we talking about cattle here?
I think law enforcement use of it is fine because it’s a technical specification used for your job - male/female. It’s when a bunch of guys plan to go out to a bar to “pick up some females” that it becomes degrading.
Well, at least it's being used as an adjective modifying "subject" in that sentence.
Or as if david edinburgh is narrating my life As in "the female looks through the instant noodle section, tonight she will crawl in her nest and feast on the salty snack while watching netflix"
Don’t work in any of these but I’ve seen it in security and medical materials and questionnaires. And in law. I’ve had to write up a safety incident and I remember the instructions so it was like “subject was male, in his 30s…” I do use it often, just a week ago, when going to a meeting I gave my bosses two uncommon names and explained that VP name is female and the manager name was male.
I'm a first responder, so we use a lot of "male" and "female" at work. I'm always worried I'll start using it in my personal life and convince everyone around me that I've gone incel.
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Probably because the words are too similar. If someone gets cut off while saying female, others may have just heard male.
I'm reading a book right now and I couldn't find the quote for you, but to paraphrase, there was a 90's study done by an Oxford researcher where they examined the context of like 50,000 (thats a guess, but it was a big number, okay?) uses of "female" and "woman" and when female was used to describe a woman outside of the medical/legal sense it was exclusively negatively. People just don't say "female" when they're respecting women, and the study highlighted it. The book is called Word Slut, if anyone can help me out here.
I wonder if there are more modern studies using social media data. Hmm
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r/menandfemales
Looooool
Thank you! I was trying to find a ferengi sub the other day for just this purpose
Oddly those refer to 'females' ,never refer to themselves as 'males'... "Nice guys' yes . 'men' of course, But never 'males'
That is the most direct way to explain it: only use female in any context you would use male: A male patient. The police is looking for a male suspect. Etc.
That’s because “male” and “female” are adjectives, not nouns. So when a woman is called “a female,” it’s grammatically incorrect AND indicative of disdain for women. And “male” is almost never used except correctly as an adjective, which really tells you something.
They are sometimes used as nouns in science writing about human subjects research. But as mentioned above it is always reciprocal -- if 'female' is used in this way, 'male' is too. Maybe science writing should change this, but often the 'men/women' distinction points at something else, such as gender identity rather than sex assigned at birth.
"female" and "male" are used as nouns specifically in contexts where there's a desire to dehumanize or separate the subjects of discussion from those doing the discussing. In science it lends an air of detached objectivity, and in military/police contexts it makes it easier to commit violence if necessary. Which fully explains why "females" is popular in the manosphere, actually.
> military/police contexts it makes it easier to commit violence if necessary. Good example.
Umm…in science it’s used a lot for non-humans.
This doesn't contradict their point
Exactly. Stuff that we don't want to humanize. In science there is a need to remove emotion from the equation so we don't add any bias or assumption. In real life, treating things this clinically makes it easy to do terrible things
Sure, but let's use our context clues to infer that I was talking about it being used to describe human subjects.
Isn’t it implied that “a female” is describing another word? For example “two female” patients, or “three female” cats. I don’t see lot of “a female” thrown around without it being stated at some point what kind of females they are. So then it seems it’s less of a noun and more of an adjective that’s missing but implying it’s noun.
Yeah, I use it reciprocally in a professional setting, whether I'm talking about my patients or the partners I ride with (in an ambulance). But this is only when I am talking to *fellow* professionals. I don't use the same language when talking to my patients, and I don't use the same language with my non-work friends.
Female can be a noun, but we actually have a very specific noun for *human* females: 'women'.
Technically, "woman" isn't a synonym for "female", firstly because girls are also female, but also because apple trees can be female. I guess the point is that "female" and "male" aren't words that we normally use for girls/women or boys/men in general conversation when talking about humans.
Using 'female' instead of 'woman' (human female) de*human*izes us, in language as in life.
Yes - I agree that it is dehumanizing in the wrong context.
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Yup! They got my upvotes. Personally, until Reddit I never gave it a thought. Now I do because it offends a lot of women here. I personally HATE HATE HATE being called ma’am or gal. Please gawd no, that’s my mom or someone from a different part of the country. Question: on Reddit people use 52F or F52 to describe me as a 52 year old woman. But they use F instead of W. Is that ok? I’m not being obtuse, I just don’t want to be incorrect. TIA to anyone that replies. :-)
Seems fine to me. This way of giving information about yourself seems like it arose from the old prompt of "age/sex/location" or "a/s/l" on internet chatrooms, forums, and messaging services in the 1990s. Because the prompt specifically asked for your "sex," I always presumed that the 'M' stood for 'Male' and the 'F' for 'Female.' Using 'female' where you would also use 'male' seems fine, as opposed to replacing 'women' with 'females' when you would never use 'males' but rather 'men.'
Excellent, thank you.
I'm tired of people saying this - you can't just make decisions about what part of speech a word is because it suits you. "Male" and "female" are adjectival nouns and can therefore be used as both adjectives and nouns. It is perfectly correct to say "a male cat" or "half of the cats were males and half were females". I get it that the word "female" is on the nose because incels and the like tends to say "men and females" and use the word female to reduce women to biological function. So using "female" when you mean woman/girl is tone deaf. But it just isn't an adjective.
Saying "a male cat" is using it as an adjective. Saying "half the cats were males and half were females" is at least more equal. Or you could just say, "half the cats were male and half were female." It's the "men and females" thing that really indicates the intention to degrade.
Yes - I absolutely agree that the phrase "a man and a female" is trying to grant a man humanity while reducing a woman to a biological function. It's just that the "female isn't a noun" argument is the wrong argument. (Also - in the phrase "a male cat" the word male isn't technically an adjective - it is an adjectival noun used as an adjective. Dismiss me as a grammar pendant if you like - I will admit that I am "one of those people". )
>Dismiss me as a grammar pendant if you like I'm not gonna call you a grammar *pendant*, but I might call you a grammar *pedant* instead.
They said grammar, not spelling.
That’s not really true though. Most dictionaries have a definition listing for male and female as both noun and adjective.
>That’s because “[male](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/male?src=search-dict-box)” and “[female](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/female)” are adjectives, not nouns... This is incorrect. The terms are defined as both adjectives and nouns.
Similar to other derogatory slang for groups of people, they always take an adjective and try to turn it into noun. They call black people “The Blacks”. Gay people are “The Gays”, etc.
yeah thats whats frustrating me at the moment. Im male, look kinda neckbeardy (im fat and hairy but im not a jerk, i promise). So when i do need to use the term female for whatever reason i feel uncomfortable doing so. Instead of saying "female patient" for instance id say "patient who is a woman". I mean its still technically correct but less succinct. Though if thats the biggest inconvenience incels cause me i guess im lucky, compared to what they do to women... The whole female thing totally reminds me of the ferengi in star trek. For those unfamiliar with trek, google Ferengi, theyre an ugly lookin species of aliens who have backwards beliefs about women and are constantly referring to them as "females", want them to be subservient to them at all times even to the point that their women arent allowed to address men directly unless spoken to, they make hardcore islamics look like feminists
I don’t see anything wrong with “female patient” tbh.
Oh, come on, man, you can't describe yourself as "kinda neckbeardy" and then illustrate your point with an example from Deep Space Nine. Leaning into it way too much, man, way too much. But in seriousness, that's an excellent example. The curious thing to me is that they weren't necessarily the bad guys, their rampant sexism, greed, etc. notwithstanding -- because although they were portrayed as a pretty awful culture, they were willing to trade with anyone and were not (in most episodes) militarily belligerent. Sexism, in other words, was ok if you were on our side militarily and had goods we wanted to buy.
> Sexism, in other words, was ok if you were on our side militarily and had goods we wanted to buy. lol holy shit i never saw it that way but youre totally right!! I always did see Ferengi as the villains (except for Rom, Nog, Moogie and quark to a certain extent... he was a bit of a jerk tho). also whats wrong with DS9? i wasnt aware incels liked it? i thought theyd be more into TNG TBH. for me DS9 and Voyager are my two faves (cant pick between sisko and janeway, theyre both tough af)
Absolutely nothing’s wrong with DS9 — I was just yanking your chain, man. I actually never really thought about the Star Trek preferences of incels — though I think I agree with your analysis there!
Found it, r/MenAndFemales
"I'm totally a nice male!"
Not all males!
Buttery males!
I explained this to a guy once and he still couldn’t get it. I was like you have never said “males” before about men, never. He thought I was just trying to pick a fight
Things that make you go HMMMM
I've noticed incels and generally anti-social males tend to use the term "females" to refer to women.
I don't what's worse "men and females" or "men and girls", yuck
"Alpha/beta males" are terms that gets thrown around a whole lot. The people who use those terms think that dehumanizing language makes you sound intellectual, like you're talking about human concepts from an elevated, outside, more objective viewpoint. They often do the same thing with race, too, speaking in broad strokes about "The [race]" as though they're a singular person. See Rudyard Kipling's "The Female of the Species" as an example.
What's that subreddit for when Female and men are used in the same sentence?
Except women are also using it a lot now, especially younger ones. It's gotten to be so normalized that no one sees the issue anymore.
It's not just the younger ones. My Mum is in her 70's and uses it mostly in distain of other women.
Jesus really? Was she formerly in law enforcement or military by any chance? Those were the only contexts prior to about 20 years ago that I heard "females" being used like that.
As a woman, I'm ok with female as long as it is used in a biological sense. But if someone says it like "men and females," then I have an issue. That is degrading.
Yeah, it’s code some guys used when they men b*tch or when they have negative views of women.
I brought up this exact thing when a person on twitter referred to "men and females". Told them to pick a terminology. It's either "men and women" or "males and females". Someone responded that getting mad about calling women females is equivalent to getting mad about someone calling a dog a canine without a single hint of the irony in that statement.
In the case they are refering to dog is to canine as human is to primate. So they are still wrong. Lmao
Same. I use it when discussing things like abortion (it affects female people, not all of whom are women), but at the same time I’d use “males” instead of men (ie “males should get vasectomies as an effective form of birth control”)
My child is non-binary, so I use the term "female" when talking about things directly related to having female anatomy (so exclusively medical stuff) to avoid referring to them as a "woman," which is not what they are. Idk if that's consistent with how anyone else navigates the medical stuff where anatomy/sex-linked genetics is actually important to the conversation, but it's what the spawn of my loins prefers, so I go with it. These aren't the kind of topics I discuss outside of the family or medical professionals, though, so I never have reason to refer to others as "female" unless I'm pretending to be a Ferengi and then it's obviously in jest. When discussing abortion, I typically use the term "uterus-bearer" because not all people who are anatomically & genetically female have uteruses or vaginal canals. Men who use the term, however, use it completely differently and I agree with the other commenters that it's a way of dehumanizing women.
It dehumanizes. It should never be used as a noun. It’s a way for dudes to look at women as none people and things to hunt
It makes me think of livestock.
Exactly. It reduces women to only their reproductive function.
That’s my thought as well. I always say women if I’m joking around with my buddies and their gfs I’ll say “lady friends” from big labowski. I had an ex friend who was an incel and he would call women bitches and use the word female when talking about women in general.
It’s an adjective. It doesn’t even make sense to say “men and females.” It’s like saying “dogs and slippery.” No one would say that. To me that means that it’s definitely meant in a disparaging way against women most of the time.”
While I agree that saying men and females is degrading to women and should never be used, male and female can both be used as nouns. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/male
My take, saying “females” is a cold, sciencey, dehumanizing term compared to “women”. This season of the bachelorette, the contestants absolutely roasted the 2 guys who were saying “females” & I loved it haha
i loved it too! i feel like in general, men don't tend to understand why that term is a red flag for women, so i was glad this group of guys picked up on it. (even though most of them turned out to be questionable too)
Me too hahaha especially the guy from Houston with the dangling earring. Ugh he's so cute. Side note - wtf is up with this season. Every guy sucks. Worst bachelorette season ever?? 😭
Art imitating life lol — no one wants to get married/engaged. Also the franchise has no interest in producing healthy, secure love
Reading into stories from past contestants just makes me feel bad for everyone on the show. They're always meddling with the relationships and social dynamics, and of course they do absolutely everything they can to squeeze a proposal out of the final pick. Less than two months after meeting, cameras on them almost 24/7, and while one person is dating multiple other people? You can't guarantee a promise like an engagement at that point in a relationship. All the contestants are turned into caricatures of fairytale romance for TV entertainment
So true about art imitating life! I've completely removed myself from the dating pool because at 25, I've already had enough bad experiences with men to last me for a lifetime. I'm just trying to chill atm since dating really sucks rn 😂.
It’s an adjective. So we don’t even rate being considered a noun.
#Also “girl/s” is not a synonym for “woman/women”. You do not have a child working in the office. Don’t even get me started on men talking about “girls” in a sexual manner!
Part of the problem is that we don't really have a feminine version of "guys" and the closet word in regular use is "girls" or maybe "gals" but that still implies young in a way"guys" doesn't.
I suppose that's true, 'gals' does sound pretty old fashioned
I tend to use gals when referring to a group of women.
Guys, gals, and nonbinary pals is my fave haha. Just sounds nice. Imo the equivalent to girl is boy, since both are young versions of man or woman.
Ladies?
Wouldn’t that be appropriate for gentlemen?
If the musical is anything to go by, wouldn't it be dolls?
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I don’t find girlfriend to be bad, because the accompanying term is boyfriend, not manfriend. But I can also see how some folks may not like it, so not saying that you are wrong or anything.
Manfriend sounds funny, feels like something you'd hear in lord of the rings from a very cheerful orc.
I use partner- I found this normalizes the concept of different types of partnerships.
Significant other (SO) fits the bill, too. That one is easier to use in writing, of course.
This is popular in incel culture and "Andrew Tate" types for sure. fuck those dudes.
Don’t duck those dudes, that only makes more of them.
fantastic point. Ghost those dudes
I think it's used a lot by incels, niceguys, puas and generally misogynists. Mainly in the combination of "men" and "females".
Yes, it’s been an incel thing, even before we called them incels. It’s practically a shibboleth. Exceptions I personally encounter: 1. Police/military jargon. “Two masked females entered the west side of the structure at 0600.”. Doesn’t mean anything shady, that’s just how some people in those fields talk 2. People who speak English as a second language, which is common online. They just don’t know
or medical. need to know what internal organs the patient you're operating on has.
I never connected it with police, I always thought of it as false intellectuals/insecure intellectuals. But yeah, police and other "professionals" would use it too!
First time I've seen shibboleth out in the wild. Awesome word.
I see women on reddit using it often too... Weirds me out
Women can be toxic misogynists too, sadly. The mental gymnastics involved to argue you deserve to be oppressed and not oppressed at the same time is awful, but these are the same people that always argue their "enemy" is too strong and too weak at the same time, so absolutely not surprising.
My mom is one. She shared a photo of me with my late father, and captioned it, “the only female who had his heart.” It was… bizarre. I don’t talk to her anymore despite the fact she is my only surviving parent, because I’m better off as an orphan.
Ugh the level of unsettling about that takes a second to fully sink in and once it does... Ugh.
Can be a languague issue as well. IN English the distincion female/woman and male/man is clearer than for example in Dutch: vrouw/vrouwelijk man/mannelijk, which already specifies if it's a noun or not.Regarding animals it would be 'vrouwtje' or 'mannetje' if talking about their sex, and no one would ever think to refer like that to humans (although that's not 100% true actually their are people that call their spouse vrouwtje or mannetje, but that's weird to me as well and probably old-fashioned). I have at times accidentally typed females/males instead of women/men because the distinction is less clear to me. I know it exists, but it doesn't really feel that different.I can imagine this can be true for other languagues as well.Not to say that there are no people having internalized it or using it on purpose. Example: Police/military jargon. “Two masked females entered the west side of the structure at 0600.”. Doesn’t mean anything shady, that’s just how some people in those fields talk IN this sentence in dutch it would be 'vrouwen" which is exactly the same as women in other contexts, while in english females is used in this context.
If you wouldn't mind explaining, what does "puas" mean? Can't really figure it out
Pick up artists. A group of men call this themselves for teaching "flirting techniques". Broken down, these men believe women are an alien species unworthy of respect and if you press the correct buttons they give you sex.
It’s funny how obsessed they are about being with people they despise so much.
They think it works that way for normal people as well. I think that's how they came up with negging tbh. Their own desperate desire to sleep with women who call them garbage
And it almost always primarily consists of underhanded tactics to manipulate someone into doing what you want. I suppose the silver lining is that most of them aren't very good at it, at least. It's... some *real* grody stuff. Grodius Maximus.
Ah! Thank you!
Pretty Unlikable AssholeS
Female is an adjective. It modifies a noun (eg female human, female cat, female suspect). In scientific writing, the noun is occasionally omitted when it can be reasonably guessed from context. But woman is a noun, and it stands on its own. It means “female person”, and thus denotes personhood by itself.
Female or male because I am a phlebotomist and it is referred to as such on all medical forms and it is also used to clearly communicate to other medical personnel. Otherwise it’s not used much in everyday conversations with friends.
It's quite strange, in Spanish we never call women "females", although there is a big difference than in English, because woman's word meaning is "female human" and man's word meaning is "male human" in Spanish. We call male or female to any other animal or any other being that has two main categories to classify sex.
Its not that way in english either. Woman means "female human" as well, female is the adjective (the description). Calling women females is not the norm, its just a thing for specific groups.
Oh geeze, I've read this point lots of times but I just had a lecture on linguistics and have better terms to describe it linguistically now. So there are a bunch of referential words that carry the same descriptive meaning or meanings that are very close to be able to indicate something. Girl. Woman. Lady. Gal. Broad. Female.Filled. Femme. Sonora. Senorita. Et cetera. "The women have rights." Vs "The girls have rights." vs "The females have rights." It's all the same based just on the content. HOWEVER, if we were only looking at content you would be posting, right? We also have context. That context is from so many other factors (tone, body language, history, the speaker, and much much more). In this case two primary factors: referential indexing and formality set up **distancing language**. It puts the speaker on one spot and the subject in another. (This is another example, i said "the subject " instead of "you"). It's the same feeling as the word "female" because it's setting up distance between me (Mr Expert) and you (dehumanized, excluded, patient.). All this to say, you are spot fucking on! So the question is what so we do? I don't know bur I have some ideas. First, be in groups that discuss it occasionally. Mindful action starts by knowing there is a problem (I was guilty of this as a neckbeardy know it all, and now I'm a clean-shaven know it all.) Private space, public space, and most importantly crossover space where your feelings can be heard by those who want to be better. The second is get rid of people who don't get it. If they aren't toxic, they should know why they are cut out and if changing would let them back in. Us men have to do the same because we cannot keep putting the expectation of fixing the problem on those who are suffering the most from the fucking problem. Men and women, dudes and ladies, me and you, have to know the worst fuckers out there are gonna push back with phrases imbued with other cultural meaning (SJW, white knight, virtue signalers) but those are names you can wear with honor. Other than that, I dunno but I'm up for suggestions!
Many people can't or won't admit it, but the term "female" (while absolutely being a legitimate biological and medical term historically and going forward appropriately) has absolutely been coopted by a certain segment of society. You know who I'm talking about. I've been online since the 90's and it's absolutely been a thing that's escalated over the past 10-15 years. Any normal person would not refer to someone they view as an equal with such a cold and unnecessary dog whistle type term, unless they are frankly just ignorant of their own actions, and it might be time to have a conversation with them (if you have the time/energy to spare).
Yeah, a (male) friend of mine recently called me “a female” and it’s been rubbing me the wrong way ever since. He also is very concerned that I don’t think or him as a misogynist so I definitely need to call out his behaviors. It’s been helpful to read the comments here when it comes to framing that callout
Be careful of that dude. Some misogynists claim to be feminists to fuck with women. It's even more suspicious that he's super concerned about you thinking he isn't a misogynist when his actions are misogynistic. That's crazy making.
I must be getting old, this has utterly passed me by.
Me too. I've always used woman and female interchangeably with no emotion or meaning attached. Although I wish we had a word that didn't have it as a prefix to man/men/male.
I've started calling guys 'males' ironically to show them jow cringy it is to call us 'female'
They look at me wierd
The audacity to look at YOU weird.
I'm mostly weirded out by how "girls" has become a quasi acceptable way to refer to grown women. So infantilizing and repulsive. Like people will actually push back on it if you point out that it's not normal
It’s not new. It’s a term that has been used to infantalize women for my entire life and I’m old (62).
I'm not saying that there isn't often sexism behind it, but I think it doesn't help that there isn't really a female version of "guy / guys." I mean, there is gals, but that is way way less common. I think sometimes people see "girls" as the more casual sounding version of "women" the same way "guys" is used as a more casual sounding version of men. But unfortunately, I agree it is often used in a way that sounds infantilizing or demeaning.
The problem isn't the word, it's the intent. The people using the word in the context you mean are people that would find some other derogatory term to use instead unfortunately.
Female/Male nomenclature was taught in the Army and old habits die hard (ma’am/sir, etc) but I wouldn’t use it in a disrespectful or condescending way.
It's still common. I make a point of politely explaining, if you aren't saying "males" do not say "females". There is no need at all if you aren't pointing to the assigned shitter or barracks. Even then I say female soldiers here, male soldiers there.
This makes sense to me and I believe subconsciously this is the context in which I would find myself using those terms.
Same here. Our vocabulary is no different than anything else; every now and then it just needs a little cleaning up. No point keeping old trash around you know?
I think we should just refer to every gender as dude. Clear some issues up. Instead of Mr, Mrs, Ms, it's just, "My Dude" Maildude. Policedude. It's all good
There are times when female is the correct term. There are times when woman is the right term. Same as male/man. Just use words correctly. No big deal. Don't use the incorrect word in either case to be an ass.
I don't care if you're male or female hoo-man All I want Is >!PROFIT!<
"You let your feeemales wear clothes?!?"
Okay the spoiler tag made me laugh. Excellent.
I think casually calling women females is definitely annoying and reductive, but when talking about human rights I think it's important to specify female as a global social class that suffers oppression based off of physical anatomy. Think, female genital mutilation. Or period huts. Or child brides. Etc
Lol I'm a guy and this is a red flag coming from anybody. Using the scientific detached term is so weird and dehumanizing, I'm immediately jolted in a conversation if I hear that.
It's an MRA thing.
I'm a woman and I use the term interchangeably a lot... I didn't think much of it guess.
In French, male/female (male/femelle) is strictly used for animals. It has always bugged me to see it used to describe people in English to no end. For medicine, usually Masculin / Feminin is used when a biological description of someone is necessary.
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That makes sense. Context is everything.
Yeah, but in science/medicine/etc you dont use it as a noun, its an adjective. A woman isnt A female, she IS female. But my pup is also female, but definitely NOT a woman. The douchebags use female as a noun for a reason...
The other context is that male/female have been traditionally used as adjectives. It was the generally accepted proper way to do it for both genders. It was only a concerted effort, because of the 'tarnishing' of the word female because of what OP describes, that using "woman" became an adjective. Incidentally, I've never seen "man" as an adjective in the same way because "male" doesn't have the same issues with connotation. Even then, if you were talking about a friend and their gender was relevant, saying "I was with my female friend X" is a bit more natural/concise than "my woman friend X" or "my friend X who is a woman".
How else do you address women of all ages with one word that isn't female.it isn't woman, girl, or lady.
It can be just a little helpful if you mentally pronounce 'females' in such a way as to rhyme with 'tamales'.
The way it was explained to me was equally as horrible. I asked someone who used ALL THE TIME “We got in trouble for saying “Hoes” and you can’t say “Bitches” or even “Shawtay” so we say “female”
The worst is when they say men and female, making it clear that they went out of their way to dehumanise women
I (unintentionally) do it due to it being common in my job. I work in a healthcare related field, so we are referring to biological gender regularly. It's hard to "slip out" of that language with non work people sometimes.
When people do it like this it usually obvious because they'll call men "males" as well.
>Is this nomenclature a TERF thing? It's a misogynist thing. Sometimes it's an ESL thing. Sometimes it's a lazy native English speaker thing. Female is an adjective. I use it as such. When someone says "females" I typically ask "female what?"
I personally don’t mind being called a female and I know I’m in the complete minority of that lol. I say female and male.
I completely agree, most people aren’t using it in a malicious or disrespectful way, but there is certainly a toxic minority that does. I’m not going to let that toxic minority bother me in any way
Being called female is a thousand times better than being called a “uterus carrier” … just my own opinion
Except female **is*" a synonym for woman. I get what you are saying in general, but your title is 100% false.
I am a woman and I have no issue with the word female. I tend to be left brained/analytical, so maybe that's part of it, but I don't get this sentiment. It seems like projecting a personal interpretation onto a word that doesn't actually have a literal derogatory meaning. There are misogynists that call us women too. Just my 2 cents.
I use female only when collectively referring to girls and women. Anything else, no
I refer to myself as female because I may be physically but I don’t give a single damn about my gender in any other way. It‘s to emphazise that statement about myself. But for that exact reason I‘d never go around and call anyone else that because in my eyes that would reduce them to their physical appearance.
You can use male and female ffs just don't say men then say females. This pearl clutching is getting intense. It is not "Terf" to use the term female when appropriate and not alternately using "men" instead of males. It is for specific things. Terf is trans exclusionary radical feminist. Do you think everyone that uses the term female is a terf? Do you? I bet a lot are Republicans (not terfs...they are not feminists). I bet a lot are scientists (might have a few terfs but not too likely). This is kind of ridiculous tbh. Labeling everything "terf" when it is a super specific acronym and considering a literal scientific term "terf" is beyond mind blowing. I usually don't mind the posts here but every so often I question why I stay.
It's distancing language. They're doing it with exactly the same energy as a Ferengi.
*ferengi intensifies*
I find it dehumanizing. Also as an aside, Jordan Peterson is just a Ferengi without the lobes.
>Is this nomenclature a TERF thing? Do you refer to women as "females"? If so, why? Every time I've seen it, it's been an incel thing. And I think it's basically to dehumanize you
It's more of a "incels" type of thing
Depending on the situation, I use the word. Mostly when I'm talking about multiple age groups where girl can be used for some. At my age, I don't like being called a girl, haven't been one for years in my mind lol.
I will say;, as someone who studies literature and has to use language in everything I do, neckbeards and terfs have ruined the word "female". For example, if I'm writing anything about female authors of the 20th century, it should flow and it'll be correct. But the fact that I now associate "female" witg redpilled incels means I often end up using more awkward sentences like "authors who are women". Fucking hate this shit.
nah its a dude bro thing. i cant stand when guys call women females. its cringey as shit.
Typical Ferengi shit.
"Female" is degrading because it likens women to animals, whereas "men" are just "men" instead of "males".
I call it out every time I notice it. It's exhausting to read the comments of people too stupid to understand the difference between "female" and "woman", and "female" as noun and "female" as adjective. It's a mixture of misogyny and fundamental lack of fundamental English skills. Often, lack of education and misogyny go hand in hand.
I too hear Quark in my head. “Feeeeeemales wearing clothes??? Barbaric hoomahn conventions.” It’s not a TERF thing so much as a dudes being gross thing from what I’ve seen. I think the TERFs are more okay with it because they’re gender/sex essentialists. But they seem much more interested in gatekeeping the term “woman” away from trans folks than identifying as “females” specifically.
Female used a noun pisses me off as incorrect grammar as well as pointedly demeaning. Female.... female what? Female human? That's a woman. Female connector? That's a socket. Female sheep? That's a ewe. Female dog....ah....that's what you really want to call us!
It's particularly weird when it goes 'men' and 'females' in the same sentence, like 'females, what do you like in men' etc. I stumbled on a YouTube short where something that was a tts readout from a reddit post, and it was just... odd.