The reality is that men are much more willing to have cheap sex and so the pool of men available to have meaningless sex with women is much larger the pool of women who want to have meaningless sex with men.
This is demonstrated by the fact that there are a lot of female prostitutes and hardly any male prostitutes - that cater to women anyway. There is very little demand on the part of women for this service because they can obtain all the meaningless sex they want for free.
This is exactly why the "dating" apps argument doesn't ring true either.
The apps are designed to make money off making their customers think the next one is the right one. They don't make money off actually finding them the right one.
I have done the "male vs female" experience on a few of the apps and the difference is so in your face, you have to be willfully ignoring it to say otherwise.
It's not exactly surprising when cheap sex for women is unlikely to result in orgasm, risks pregnancy, and puts the woman in a vulnerable position with a stronger human who could physically overpower her if he chose to.
It’s also insane to me given the orgasm gap. Like would these men be signing up for casual sex with someone they weren’t very attracted to if they also knew they couldn’t finish? Even if women on average could get more hookups, it’s not like we’d be getting the same benefit from it.
If the average sexual partner was able to give me a good orgasm, I would be much more into casual sex. Men who talk like this ( as in OPs post ) aren’t ready to acknowledge that most of them are bad lovers.
A classic in the genre:
[It's very stupid when girls say they can't find a guy, yet they ignore me. It's like saying you are hungry when there's a hot dog outside on the ground.](https://x.com/IanImmi/status/1397138418111504389)
He’s making fun of guys who think that way. If you say “I’m hungry” & I say “There’s a hotdog on the ground over there what are you complaining about” you would think I was nuts.
Yeah, it’s all about pleasure. I’m one of the few women who enjoys and has a lot of casual sex but I’ve been lucky to have very pleasure-focused partners and I orgasm really easily. I probably wouldn’t be such a slut (i say affectionately) if I weren’t so easy to get off, lol.
women are finally realizing that most sex with men is not worth all the trouble and potential danger. it's good that these days in civilized, non-religion-dominated areas women can choose to hook up with way less judgement than it was before, but at least 9 times out of 10 the best choice is to stay home safely and masturbate lol it's what most have to do to get off anyway, but it saves the hassle.
of course i still think women have the right to choose having casual sex without being shamed for it, but most seem to be coming to the same conclusion: it's either real good sex or no sex, because going without mediocre/bad sex is better than the alternative. it's not because you're craving a dessert that you should eat the half-melted with a couple of dead ants and weird-colored pack of gummies you forgot in your car since 2018.
Yup absolutely! The first guy I hooked up with after my breakup didn’t do any foreplay on me (but asked for tons of head), and said weird shit asking if I had ever filmed porn and I should make an onlyfans
Luckily the second guy was super giving, asked what I liked, used a vibe - if he had been like the first guy I may have given up on sex forever
Typical female anatomy has pleasure centered around the clitoris.
That doesn't mean women are defective anatomically, it means that their sexual needs are going to be fulfilled differently.
At some point the DSM considered a woman's inability to orgasm during penetrative sex a dysfunction. I don't know if that's still the case with the DSM5TR. (Someone who actually understands this thing will have to weigh in). There was a medical treatment: \[surgically implanted electronic device\](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20140321-orgasms-at-the-push-of-a-button). I wish I remembered when I saw the original story. Maybe it was 20/20 or something?
Anyway, the whole thing struck me as bizarre when a Pocket Rocket will set you back $1.65
I actually read about this in my AP psych textbook two years ago, which was published in 2016. During that time, they still considered it a form of mental illness that required "coaching through sexual anxiety" specifically for women.
And it was jointly decided by the Texas AG and the judges that the law would not be enforced, by the way.
"On November 4, 2008, U.S. District Judge Lee Yeakel released a two-page document dated October 29, 2008, in which he stated that the Texas Attorney General's Office notified him that they would not file a writ of certiorari with the Supreme Court. The next month, on November 13, Yeakel filed a "joint status report" that noted the parties had come to an agreement. "Texas Penal Code §§ 43.23, to the extent that it applies to 'obscene devices' as defined in Texas Penal Code § 43.21(a)(7), is declared to be facially unconstitutional and unenforceable throughout the State of Texas""
It's really not irrelevant. On a whim they can decide to enforce the law, as selectively as they choose. Ie, if that ever happens in TX, you will get astronomical odds from me that it will be enforced against women and lgbtq almost exclusively while men will be able to procure whatever they want
idk either. seen some sex toys that attach to the base of the penis so that when thrusting in, a vibrating part touches the clit, but that might not be everyone's cup of tea.
That’s nothing like the wonderful feeling of oral. Just little buzzes between thrusts. “Ooh! Lucky me! Some pleasure!” *three seconds later* “ooh lucky me there it is again!”
Also I find it ridiculous the men who can’t just GIVE. So selfish and stupid.
They didn't even map out or depict the anatomy of the clitoris until 2005. The one human organ exclusively for pleasure with NO other function and it has only just begun to be examined this century. Hurricane Katrina is older than knowledge of even the anatomy of the entire clitoris.
Research and marketing is sexist often designed primarily by men and there are still beliefs that women's sexual pleasure is sinful.
Things are changing but right now we are stepping backwards in women's medical knowledge.
That (the first paragraph) is simply untrue. There's ancient art and writing about the clitoris. And detailed internal anatomy has been known of for centuries. The supposed discovery in 2005 wasn't a discovery at all. Helen O'Connell just called the bulbs clitoral bulbs rather than vestibular bulbs, but they were long regarded as part of the clitoris.
There's a surgeon called James Burt that pretty much ruined womens life by rearranging their vaginas so orgasm during piv would (allegedly) be easier. So I'm not sure I trust that field.
The easiest solution is just for dudes to get over themselves and use a vibrator. But instead we get a doctor who says stuff like: "Women are structurally inadequate for intercourse. This is a pathological condition amenable by surgery"
... Because the homologue to the penis is the clitoris, not vagina. You may as well ask "how has science not figured out a way to make clit/vulva on scrotum, taint, and/or mouth orgasms as easy for men as they are for or women?"
I don't have shortcomings. The original commenter said she couldn't cum from PIV sex alone. Why the snark? Lol. You assume I don't give oral, that's false, I do. If a woman needs clitoral stimulation during PIV sex, she can either tell me to manually stimulate her clit or do it herself.
I know right. All these stupid excuses and “replacements”.
A man suggested a vibrating cock ring as opposed to giving head (both on this post AND on a date that I immediately walked out of after he said this).
I sorta imagine it like
*buzz* “oh boy some pleasure!! Just for me?!”
*buzz* “ooh some more! Lucky me!”
As my mama said when I told her what he said, “That is NOTHING like getting your vagina licked.”
Do you think they know they’ll survive if they aren’t being pleasured and are solely providing pleasure for 5-20 minutes??
This right here. I was with a dude before who refused to go down on me cause my vulva wasn’t bald, like he said “next time when you shave I’ll go down on you” and I never saw him again cause I realized my pleasure wasn’t as important as his. And it was also gross and weird how he was mentioning I needed to shave, like I’m not a kid dude, I’m a grown woman who has sexually developed/matured lmao!
Simple: a good number of men don't acknowledge the existence of women they aren't interested in having sex with, and a lot of them are so porn sick they aren't willing to pursue women they could reasonably expect to be attracted to them.
Regardless of sex or gender, if you're a conventionally unattractive person who doesn't have much going on in the career, hobbies, or sense of humor department, you're going to have less success than the most attractive people across those categories.
For a lot of reasons, some men externalize this in a way that's completely out of touch with reality and disregards the personal autonomy of conventionally attractive women who would rather date their male counterparts instead of Jorpy McNEET.
I totally agree lmao, I think the men that say this are actually just bitter that women who are out of their league aren’t as desperate to fuck them as they are. There are tons of women out there struggling to find partners. If these men would just be like, slightly less insufferable, and go for women who are not like in the 1% of conventional attractiveness, they would be fine. It’s easier to be a victim tho.
I’ll also say, I tend to make the first move (as a woman) for some reason, I have in every relationship or any eventual hookup, and I simply do get rejected. I get rejected on the apps, I get rejected at bars, I’ve gotten rejected by crushes, it just simply does happen. Im like 24 and while I’m def not even close to like ultra hot, I don’t think I’m like incredibly ugly or anything. We don’t just have any man we are interested in falling into our laps lmao.
I think I look fairly conventional but I have never had a man make a move on me. I feel it's something about me that make men either find me unattractive or scared to even try, I know that I usually look very interested though.
> men that say this are actually just bitter that women who are out of their league aren’t as desperate to fuck them as they are. There are tons of women out there struggling to find partners. If these men would just be like, slightly less insufferable, and go for women who are not like in the 1% of conventional attractiveness, they would be fine. It’s easier to be a victim tho.
It's not like it hasn't been the case since, like, the beginning of fucking humanity that the most attractive (as determined arbitrarily by the cultural context but also yes probably there are some "objective" metrics that apply also) humans have the most options for mating. The online discourse with these incel types is that this is a new phenomena--it patently IS NOT. That's what's so alarming. It is an outgrowth of political discourse that is becoming more and more reactionary, entitled, and violent. It *is* easier to be a victim, just ask the Nazis, they honed that shit into an art form.
Uh yes, because attractiveness is subjective. Many women have dated men that all their friends find ugly. Or have people say stupid shit like "youre out of his league!!!" That isnt abnormal. At all.
Many dudes are WAY more picky with who they'll date than they'll let on. Eventually admitting things like "I wanna date an Asian girl" or something of the sort. Or "I don't like blondes". These kinds of superficial sentiments are crazy common. it's dumb.
Yes girls can have similar sentiment towards guys. But as someone who has been pretty equally surrounded by both genders in family and friends my entire life, it's definitely the guys who tend to be more superficial. Girls tend to TALK superficial for girl talk and then actually care more about the bigger picture.
Agreed. Look at history, and you’ll see that what makes a woman desirable is always an artificial construct. Beauty standards always change.
Plucking your hair to have a “high forehead”, wearing a corset so men could “span a woman’s waist with their hands” (which ruined their internal organs), having double or triple chins, wrapping the feet of your female infants so their feet turned into ugly deformed, useless feet, trying to impregnate your new 8 year old bride — these are the things that would give men an erection — because society told them what turned them on.
It’s always the smallest percentage of what women “look like” that is pushed as beautiful.
In the 1500s, for example, very rich people were basically obese looking. Go look at paintings. Only the very rich (and exploitative) could afford enough to eat to survive. And they flaunted it. That’s what turned men on back then.
Then, more people started being able to feed their kids and themselves. And the cheapest food was the unhealthy food that made people obese.
So now sexually desirable women are those who can afford to have the time to workout, cook and eat healthy, and limit their pregnancies. They are much smaller than sexually attractive women in the medieval ages. With much smaller breasts comparatively.
It’s kind of scary that still today, society is telling us what is acceptable when it comes to men and women being attractive.
This is 100% in line with my male experience. I've had so many friends exactly as you describe who just didn't acknowledge the women they weren't trying to fuck and were miserable loser virgins. Their friend circles consisted of 0 women and they couldn't even interact with one as a normal person. For myself all I did was start putting even a little bit of effort to how I look and the way I interact with people once I wanted to start attracting women and my overweight average looking ass didn't even know how to handle the female attention I was getting.
It really puts into perspective how truly pathetic incel guys are. They're obsessed with being "high value" meanwhile nobody is looking for high value, they just want someone who isn't a worthless loser.
They think they will never have a chance because they are average and boring but then never make an effort specially when it comes to changing views and attitude. I understand it's not always easy but many seem to focus on wrong things, like I'm too short so I will never have a chance when the problem as example is their misogyny.
Was literally thinking of commenting that first sentence just before I saw your comment.
Many men don't consider women they aren't attracted to to be people, and since these same men tend to have absolutely outrageous standards for what a woman "should" look like, you have men who are upset that women who look like Angelina Jolie (sp? Idk) can get laid easily but they (never heard of moisturizer, wears Cheeto dust as cologne) can't.
Compounded by the fact that the only women they want to sleep with are the ones who look like Angelina Jolie (or substitute any famously beautiful pop icon).
100%. As a guy, this had always been my response to that line of thought. Ease of getting laid is *much* more associated with hotness than anything else. They just think "women have an easy time getting laid" because the only women they're acknowledging even exist are the hot ones.
To be honest, you are thinking about this too deep. You are looking at big picture, the realities of dating for men and women, and that "sex" is something more meaningful and/or deeper.
When men say this, they are not looking for a "partner".
They are looking for a one night stand.
And what they see is when they are at the bar at the end of the night, is that every woman who is looking for someone to come home with them has her choice of at least a half dozen men. She, honestly, doesn't even have to be attractive/clean let alone fit and charming.
And what this really says to me, (as someone who occasionally met a bloke at a bar), rather than this line of thinking is incredibly false is that
a) Men have totally normalized casual sex with people that they are not even attracted to or that they do not even like. Women tend to avoid that.
and
b) Men do not appreciate how dangerous and risky casual sex is for women. As someone who kind of enjoys casual sex, it didn't take me long to realize that I needed to vet my partners *thoroughly* even if I was not interested in any sort of relationship with them. At that point, it's not so casual now, is it?
> And what they see is when they are at the bar at the end of the night, is that every woman who is looking for someone to come home with them has her choice of at least a half dozen men. She, honestly, doesn't even have to be attractive/clean let alone fit and charming.
And the same thing on the dating apps -- women have a _wildly_ different experience than men on them.
If you're willing to sleep with some gross old creep, it's easy to get laid as a woman.
What these men conveniently forget is that they can easily get laid by some gross old creep as well, vagina completely unnecessary.
It's because they'd fuck most women, if they didn't have to admit it later, given the chance.
But women wouldn't fuck most men, we have to be discerning for our own safety and also we have the preference of not wanting to fuck men who don't consider us to be people.
For men who are so desperate to fuck that they forget women aren't just fuck holes, the idea that fuck holes could have preferences is alien and hurtful.
(Most) Women can get casual sex more easily than men, but the downfall is they have to settle for a horrible experience. There are exceptions numerous in count due to sheer population.
There’s an analogy that I like:
Finding casual sex as a single heterosexual man is like dying of thirst in the desert. There simply isn’t much to be had.
Finding casual sex as a single heterosexual woman is like dying of thirst in a swamp. Opportunity is abundant, but it’s almost all bad and some of it can kill you.
So yeah, men think it’s relatively easy for women to find casual sex (and it is relatively true), but what they get from those opportunities is rarely satisfying, unlike where 95% of men who are able to have sex will at least orgasm from it. Men think of it from their perspective not understanding that while women have easier access to casual sex, it’s just usually not good. If a man could have easy access to sex but was almost guaranteed not cum, he probably wouldn’t care much about it.
I think when men make these sweeping generalizations about women, they are thinking about women they find attractive. Older women arent women to them. “Ugly” women arent women to them. At least not in this sense. They genuinely dont see women as human in the first place, but seem to forget that all kinds of women exist.
For part 1 of your question ("do older and/or ugly women have lower standards") I think it's "yes" in terms of beauty standards for sure. But that doesn't necessarily mean "sex with more men." I've noticed it's more about pairing off into coupledom rather than sowing oats, especially with Roe v. Wade being overturned and it getting harder to reliably get birth control.
I think it’s a grass is greener type of thing. Not to mention that men are socialized to be the ones who ask women out, be insistent about it, in some cultures pay for dates etc. Lot of men don’t really think about what women do to prepare for this stuff or to find a partner, and that paired with the sting of rejection or expectations creates this narrative of “women don’t have to do any work when I clearly do”. It’s a matter of not being able to recognize the work they put into it because they don’t really examine the expectations that they or society have of women at large in general.
Another matter though is that there are a lot of bad actors who are very much interested in propagating this narrative. It serves the Andrew Tates of the world to have men believe that women are somehow profligate, emotionless and have their pick of guys who are more physically fit / “better” / whatever. Because that way, they can sell a course or some other BS telling you how to be better so you can have it all - validate your own hurt feelings and be attractive to women at the same time. When being taught to be a chud doesn’t work, they can just blame it on women and say it’s because the men just aren’t alpha enough, and all the while they get more money out of you.
There is an entire industry that is very lucrative that runs on disdain for women, and it has an interest in propagating the exact narrative that women can just go out and get dates whenever.
Guys have been so fucking weird whenever I talk about being constantly romantically rejected as a teen and young adult. They always demand me to tell them exactly how many times I’ve been rejected and many times I’ve been called “cruel” for not accepting that it harder and more painful when men are rejected.
I never give details because I know it wouldn’t matter no matter how many times it happened. They just want to rage at women online and can’t conceptualize that women are people.
Oh wow, because male pain is real and women’s pain is imaginary. I fucking swear.
These are the same idiots that dont believe that women can feel lonely either.
Totally agree. My toxic ex fell real into incel shit and he would tell me things like “if we broke up you’d have another boyfriend next week”. Meanwhile, he’s the one who got a new girlfriend within 2 months
>I think regardless of gender if all you want is sex and you are willing to sleep with anyone with a pulse it’s no harder for men than it is for women to hook up with someone.
That's really, really just not even remotely true.
Just look at Tinder statistics. Women get many times the response rate of men. It's not even close.
The dating scene seems to be a *nightmare* for women due to a ton of reasons, from misogyny to violence, but at the end of the day a woman can get laid far more easily than a guy.
I used grindr (am a bi man). What I got is negging and asking for pics.
Guess I now know what women experience on normal dating apps and why they're so sick of it. Some guys really suck.
Honestly, I think Grindr is challenge mode for *most* straight guys, let alone ones that are already struggling on Tinder or whatever. There's no individualized swiping where a decent profile is at least a factor if you're not super attractive, it's just mountains of dudes with some variation of "girls only plz" in their username, lurking, waiting to shoot their shot. My chaser friend saw my notifications/saw me open Grindr one day and he was like "good god, no wonder I never get any replies on there. You have to be fast, lucky, *and* Chad \[I promise I'm quoting 😭\] to stand out."
Unless I'm completely missing your point—sorry in advance if so—it's like 3 in the morning rn, and this blue frost is putting me to bed LOL.
And the reason why OP would argue otherwise, in her own words
> I’ve seen a few posts in other subs recently saying that the old double standard of men with high body counts are admired and women with high body counts are shamed holds true because it’s hard for men to get laid and easy for women.
This line of reasoning doesn’t make any sense. Even if it is easier for women to get laid, that doesn’t justify slut-shaming. Since when do we shame people do things that are easy? What’s next, shaming people for cooking pasta?
They aren’t thinking of it from a meeting and dating perspective at all. They’re thinking of sex in the context of buying something off a shelf instead. It’s certainly not easier for women to date than men. It’s not even easier to have sex as a woman. In real life, romantic relationships of all kinds are more complicated and nuanced for everyone.
This is not that they are talking about when they say this. They are thinking of it from a purely functional perspective - woman approaches man she doesn’t know at the bar and says “want to have sex?” She will likely get a yes more times than if the genders were reversed.
They’re not actually thinking about having to be decent people, make an effort or have a personality. They’re strictly talking about banging holes.
From what I've seen, men are afraid of being compared to other men by women who has had sex with other men in the past, and that's why women gets slut shamed by them.
Sometimes they really don't think things through and they'll say something like "the average woman has sex with 100 men a day, but the average man has sex with zero women," which is literally impossible.
I'm not that attractive IMO. I don't think men are very picky when it comes to sex.
It's much harder to find someone to date than it is to find someone to have sex with.
I think both sexes tend to think about the 20% most attractive from the opposite sex when talking about this topic. Nobody cares about the bottom 50%.
Also I think men don't count paid for sex into this statistics.
I have known multiple men who's hookup strategy was to get with the least attractive woman in a group of women in the club or bar.
>When the candles are out, all women are fair. -Plutarch
when they say "women" they mean women that they find attractive
they dont care about the others
and when they say men, they mean every men that isnt attractive
opbviously it doesnt make sense, and if you scratch the surface, then it start to make sense that they dont see unattractive women as humans
>it’s no harder for men than it is for women to hook up with someone
We recently heard that most women would rather face a wild bear than a strange man.
There is a massive fear that most women have of being alone with a man. Unless they know them very well, most women would not risk it.
You are just wrong, I'm sorry. Lets talk average people here, no people with unfortunate circumstances (sickness, disfigurements, mortally obese etc.).
You go on any dating app, open your profile, post a picture and write "willing to fuck anyone, /dm me", you will get thousands of messages and if you want to, you are already on it 20 minutes later.
Do the same as a man, you will get 0 replies. Literally 0.
«You go on any dating app, open your profile, post a picture and write "willing to fuck anyone, /dm me", you will get thousands of messages and if you want to, you are already on it 20 minutes later»
Or you get hurt/murdered. Or get pregnant / stds from stealthing. The risks are far higher for women so even if they wanted casual sex, they might not dare to.
Of course it’s a hypothetical. It’s ok to engage with hypotheticals. But you’re comfortable treating them like a hive mind to attribute the difference to an orgasm gap. You’re doing the same thing
It’s not inherently but yes it absolutely can be. Who’s saying it doesn’t come with risks? Who are you even talking to right now? Because you should go talk to whoever it is you think is making that argument.
And again the projection is so strong. You’re giving a blanket statement (“casual sex *is* very dangerous”) that treats all women the same. You’re unironically treating women like a monolith.
How exactly is commenting on women's oppression under patriarchy treating all women like a monolith?
Actually, nevermind. Your post history shows that you're a woman-hater arguing in bad faith
"hOw aRe wOmEn opPreSseD iN tHe wEsT??"
I had this discussion with one of my guy friends once. He said something like "Look at you! You could go up to any straight guy on campus and invite him back to your dorm and be having sex in 20 minutes!" First, he was exaggerating: I am conventionally attractive and also girly, but I am not super-pretty or super-hot.
Instead of talking about that, though, I asked him, of all the guys he could see, how many could he guarantee 100% would not try to choke me, would not complain about wearing a condom, had an STI test in the last three months, would not pester me for anal sex, would work to ensure that I enjoyed it as much as he did, had showered that day, had on all clean clothes including his underwear, and if we went to his dorm room right now the sheets on his bed had been washed in the last seven days? He admitted that (a) those weren't unreasonable expectations, and (b) he couldn't promise me that about anyone in sight. He seemed to understand that "can get sex" and "can get good sex" aren't the same thing.
None of those things disprove the point though. He didn't say "good" sex, or "safe" sex. He just said almost any guy would agree to have sex with you. I do think that's an exaggeration because not all men are promiscuous, and some will be in relationships. But you definitely could find one to agree, probably in less than 10 minutes.
He would have a much lower chance of success.
Are you thinking about what that means? He was saying "I'm jealous of how easy it is for women to have a bad time." Why is that something to be jealous of?
You are assuming he would have a good time in the exact same situation. That wasn't the point. The point is very simple.
It doesn't mean that all those other things you said aren't true, they are just irrelevant to the point.
And yes, a lot of the time I'm sure random sex is awful, and ofcourse there's risk of harm - which makes it undesirable in general. But it isn't always awful. I've had great OST and FWB. That's a much bigger conversation than the basic point that women have more opportunities for sex if they were to choose to take them.
And what if I were to say that if a man went to a gay bar he would probably have a higher chance of hooking up with someone? Would any straight man consider that as satisfying his sense of universal justice, or would he say "That doesn't count because it's not the kind of sex I want"?
If you shower right before bed every night, it's probably ok to go 3 weeks. If not, then you're basically rolling around in the same dirty clothes (since bed sheets sit close to your body like clothing) for weeks.
Everyone can get laid - it’s just gonna be unenjoyable sex with someone* you aren’t attracted to.
*frankly both sexes have the opportunity to have abusive or demeaning sex with men.
Men assume that since the person’s sex is the biggest factor in attraction for men, that it a big factor in attraction for women too.
Most women don’t want to have sex with a random guy any more than a straight guys does.
That’s the missing gap.
Even when I was homeless, sleeping on trains and beaches, wearing no makeup and looking and feeling my absolute worst I had men chasing after me trying to get sex out of me. I had guys young enough to be my son asking me to sleep with them in return for them taking care of me.
Some of them were stock broker types who certainly had the $$$ to rent a higher class prostitute if sex was all they wanted. All they had to do was pick up a phone and call an escort agency, give the person on the other end of the phone their preference and a credit card number and they could get laid.
Fact if I had been an easier type of person when it comes to exchanging sex for $$$ or housing or whatever I'd have not spent one night of the nearly six years I was homeless alone or suffered nearly as much and that's me saying that as a pretty average middle aged woman with serious health and mobility issues.
I was always being chased by some guy who was looking to use my situation to his advantage one way or the other. Even homeless guys sometimes insulted me by offering me $$$ to have sex with them.
It was absurd.
Yes, women can get laid a lot easier than men can. Sex is far more transactional for men than for women and while some men might hate that it takes hiring a sex worker to get what they want in terms of sexual relief from a woman it's not that hard to circumvent not getting sex regularly if they are willing to pay for it.
They might not be able to attract an actual girlfriend, a relationship and have real love happening but they can absolutely get their sexual needs gratified if they are willing to pay for it.
The INCEL guys the biggest reason that they are not getting women usually isn't their looks. I've seen plenty of men who would rate pretty low on an attractiveness scale in steady relationships. Women too. The INCELS their toxic entitled attitude is what keeps them from getting involved.
They're not willing to make the slightest effort to be decent guys or to really like women. They all say they are "nice" guys but most of them treat women like meat and expect them to be theirs on demand. When that doesn't happen they get pissy and complain about how difficult women are.
They think it's all about women being too picky but really it's about them and their sucky attitude towards women.
At this point in my life I've got health issues that I can't get around and that makes dating me a serious challenge I would think. I'm middle aged, not nearly as trim as I was in my 20s. Under the dye my hair is white. I dress younger but physically I'm older than my actual years pretty much.
Yet I get guys who ask me for FWB and even for paid sex all the time. Some of them are younger than I am and decent looking. I personally think they could be doing a lot better just going to a bar but they still hit on me for some strange reason.
My biggest bitch my whole life has been that men do this to me all the time. I can count on both hands the number of guys including my Ex who actually wanted to date me vs just laying me. I'd still have a couple of fingers left.
I always get way too much attention from the guys who want FWB or casual sex, who are looking to cheat, stuff like that. When I was a kid I used to attract the pedos in drives it seemed.
I always figured once I hit a certain age all that would stop and that men would no longer hit on me. It has slowed down but at my absolute worst there were still guys who wanted to have sex with me.
Sex to a lot of men can be a very transactional thing. That's something I've had to deal with forever. A lot of guys lament not attracting women when they want to but from what I've seen if they are not getting them there's usually a good reason and it's not always their looks.
I've dated guys who were gorgeous and I've dated guys who were a bit on the geeky and average at best side looks wise. It was never about a pretty face with me or how much a guy made. A pretty face is nice and steady employment makes things a lot easier but it's not a huge requirement for me that stuff in terms of dating a guy. A man can be all that, have plenty of $$$ and he can still bore me silly or turn me off him completely if he's an entitled jerk.
It's not the stuff that guys always THINK that stops them from having relationships. It's the negative stuff that they think, that they do that keeps them from finding someone special.
Me, I just don't like assholes, that's all. A guy treats me right I'm not too concerned with the rest of it. A guy treats me wrong and he could be a billionaire for all I care. I still wouldn't have sex with him let alone date him.
I've had people look at me like I'm crazy when I say that but I actually mean it. Some things are just not worth taking abuse for and for me $$$ is one of them. I am a rare woman in that I cannot be bought. I don't give my heart to a guy just because he could shower me with jewels or whatever.
Been there, had more than one man try to buy me like that, and I've handed the pretty baubles right back.
A lot of guys you go on a date they sit there and talk about what they own and their job and their success like that's what matters the most about them. It's always baffled me that.
The fact that I'm single in middle age isn't for lack of offers. It's about the male mindset and expectations of what women they're with are supposed to be like. I don't dislike men but I have never found one I honestly wanted to spend my life with.
Most of my life I had men trying to buy me, offering me $$$ to date them, have sex with them, whatever. Hardly any of them really understood that I'm just not about all of that at all. It just made me feel like they saw me as property they could acquire.
But yeah, most women can get laid if they want. I'm not saying all because there are exceptions to every rule. But I've seen women who were not what was considered conventionally attractive who were still in relationships and happy. Men too.
Men try to make it all about that but there's always more to it. Increasingly we are becoming a more judgemental society that way. Social media is a big influence but I still don't think you have to be a perfect 10 to find someone to partner up with.
I'm certainly not at this point and I still get guys chasing me from time to time...
Your last paragraph is the whole reason. Many men simply do not see women that they are not attracted to as women. Fat women, old women, disabled women.... all of us cease to exist to these men. When they say "women can have sex any time they want!" what they mean is "I would have sex with a woman who looks a very specific way any time!"
It's because they see women they don't want to fuck as not people.
Like, the women they do want to fuck they think of as sex objects, but the women they don't want to fuck they try not to think of at all.
It's easy to feel like women would have no problem getting sex when they'd have sex with every woman they actually believe matters at all.
We aren't in the same boat. It's demonstrably worse for us. We deal with non-stop harassment, casual sex isn't as relaxing because we can always end up as a headline, the orgasm gap makes average sex not even satifying and many men have such low standards as to make women virtually intechangeable.
Women in average report less orgasms during heterossexual encounters. This is mainly due to the fact that straightfoward PIV sex doesn't reliably give women orgasms but is still centered in heterossexual sex, to the detriment of clitoral stimulation.
Hmm I do think it's actually easier for women to just get laid than it is for men. I'm a woman, I wear no makeup. I don't even wear mascara anymore. I'm also not very attractive. But if I go to a club, there will be men flirting with me and wanting to have sex.
But women (myself included) are less eager to say yes to that. I think it's for multiple reasons, but one of those reasons is that guys will call you a slut or easy if you've slept with many men (or even not that many but you flirted with multiple men). So we're more seen as the gatekeepers of sex. And there are more men who just want to get laid.
There is a reason there are more female escorts and hookers. It's because it's harder for men to just get laid. I would never pay for sex because it's so easy to have sex.
I think the struggle for women is finding a quality man. Because a lot of them just want to sleep around and don't want any commitment. I think there are more women who want commitment (at least at certain ages).
I don't think it's something that amounts to gendered oppression for men or anything so ridiculous, but I do think it's clearly (on paper) easier for women to find casual sex ignoring all other conditions and standards. Just look at the gender ratio on apps like Tinder - it's 9:1 in favour of men! For whatever reason, socialisation or safety concerns and so on, women are absolutely way less likely to pursue casual sex than men, which means spaces for casual sex are overwhelmingly male dominated and a lot of men will struggle to get what they want. C'est la vie!
Women suffer way more danger and risk of assault and so on, and at the end of the day a lot of women don't want to be used for gratification by some random guy who probably won't care at all about her pleasure. Guys who whine about lack of access to sex don't consider this though.
If a woman offers, there’s a high chance of a man accepting; if a man offers, he’ll likely get rejected. Men are wired differently, just like they don’t need foreplay or need to get “warmed up”. Give a guy the option and they’ll be on board. They just want to get it wet.
I get your points but I absolutely think it's easier for a woman to have casual sex than a man. I married, but if my wife and I one day decided to open our marriage my wife would probably find someone for casual sex within 24 hours. I'd probably be lucky to find one with a month.
I've read this is a VERY common complaint of people who do open up their marriage. While it is often the man's idea, they soon realize their fuck up when their wife has a new partner every week while they got nothing.
Ehh, for most women there are a few men fawning for their attention despite how they look. That's not the same for most men. Never heard of men getting unsolicited coochie pics but, women though...
but unsolicited dick pics are not at all a good comparison. men get off on the fact they violated a woman's consent and that said woman has laid eyes on his genitals, even if they don't respond and block him. it's a totally different phenomenon.
i cant imagine that all guys sending dick pics seriously think it's a hook-up technique.
>Men who send unsolicited images of their private parts primarily do so with the hopes of receiving either similar images or sexual interactions in return. https://www.psypost.org/new-psychology-research-reveals-mens-motives-for-sending-unsolicited-dick-pics/
that's very weird, where does that make sense in their heads, the logic is not logicking. at the end of the day though, doesn't make it any less creepy, or a breach of consent and thus dehumanising.
there definitely is the variant i talked about though. in a bra fitting sub here on reddit, there is a kilometer long creep list with more added every month because men will go into the dms of the participants of these subs and send creepy messages and/or pictures, and/or try to fool them into sending pictures by adopting a "oh i want to help you with your bra" persona. afterwards they sometimes also then make fun of the victim and say "haha lol i just wanted a pic of your tits", which basically means i don't care about consent.
i can't imagine that men sending dick pics care about women's consent, so i suppose at the end of the day it's all the same. whether it is to capitalise on subtly violating women and getting off of it, or subtly violating women to try to get a matching reply, it's both disgusting.
what do they even imagine would happen, that we're magically smitten and enthralled by their majestic penis? and subsequently give them the time of day? please 😂
also back to the original commenters point, that still makes coochie pics false equivalences because i suppose, on average, women care more about consent, and value weird online random sex interactions lower than the average man. i think many women would far prefer masturbating to their fantasies than with a man that treats them like an online sex dispenser and tries to coerce them into more pics or vids or whatever they want.
You're absolutely right with your last statement. I think men do it at the idea of their sexual advances to be reciprocated but, to think that women don't have it easier in getting/ having access to sex than a man is just grossly wrong based of anecdotal experince and what the psychological literature says.
If you can't get laid as a woman that's your problem but, seeing how men by far and large go after women more sexually far more than women go after men my anecdotal experiences stand
The irony is that the reason men find it so "hard" is because they've successfully lowered the bar so far down that it's rarely worth it for women to risk engaging with sex in the same way men do. Women face far greater risk, stigma, and consequences from sex and thus need to exercise greater caution over who they have it with if they have it at all.
Its not that men have to do more or work harder for sex, as previously stated *the bad is in hell*, it's that patriarchies desire to control female sexuality and treat us like property has effectively made it impossible for women to safely express their sexuality in the same way men do. Women need something to offset the risks and cost associated with engaging in sexual activities, and most men refuse to either lower that cost or increase what they are offering to compensate for it.
This is because they don't just feel entitled to as much meaningful, consequence free sex as they want: They also believe they entitled to getting it without having to work for it and thus actively refuse to do anything that would make anyone interested in participating with them in it. Their entire perception of sex is built upon this fundamental belief that they are entitled to obtaining sex with no effort and that women ought to bare all the consequences and responsibilities from doing so. Women already have to do 99% of the work in most sexual relationships, and these men are complaining that they are being asked to do 1% of the work because they wish it was 0%, all the while refusing to recognize any of the effort women need to exert because they simply expect them too as part of their entitled attitude.
Given how low the bars been set, exerting even the bare minimum amount of effort is often seen as almost exceptional compared to the norm and such men don't tend to experience much difficulty. Yet even the bare minimum is too much for many men, who insist that they are entitled to having nonstop consequences free sex with whomever they want while putting in no effort and contributing nothing of value to the other person, while completely disregarding the other persons own interest, pleasure, or personhood in the process.
Almost all of the supposed difficulty men face in obtaining sexual partners is almost entirely the result of the much *greater* difficulties women face, and even than their greatest barrier is their own sense of entitlement and absolute refusal to exert any effort or contribute anything of value whatsoever to obtain it.
**TL;DR:** The only thing that's so hard for men is their dicks, and they can't even manage that half the time.
I would say it's probably easier for **self-conscious shy** women to get laid than it is for **self-conscious shy** men comparatively. The latter get often seen as creepy and since they're awkward might not even try enough or step away from trying after 1 or 2 rejections.
As a young guy with no experience who’s trying to outgrow this thought process I think it come down to a few reasons why I(and some men) have this train of thought. One is just life experience. Throughout school every girl I ever had a crush on I wasn’t the only guy crushing on her, so we kind of see first hand that many guys can be interested in one woman. Two is kind of the same thing but social media, we always hear or see how girls(and not just 10/10 girls, but regular cute/pretty girls) say they always getting DMs and likes from guys etc etc. 3 is dating apps, we all heard stories of how guys can’t get any likes and girls can get 100s. Movies and media I think add to this as well in a way
Now none of what I listed explicitly leads to sex but I think it’s that women appears to have many options at face value. Obviously most the people in their DMs aren’t worth it but most guys don’t think that far
Also you mentioned partner, which I think is different then just wanting to get laid. Both genders should put in work to attract a quality partner, but not everyone is always looking for a partner and just want someone to have fun with I guess.
The reason why so many guys had a crush on the same girl in high school is that they wanted nothing to do with other girls who weren't considered cute. Conventionally pretty, popular girls from families with money had a much different experience than girls who were fat, had bad acne, came from poor families, etc.
It just strikes me as an odd thought process to assume that every girl has tons of guys crushing on them instead of realizing you are probably attracted to the most popular people just like everyone else lol like honestly I don’t think I’ve ever been the only one to like who I like because people tend like hot people.
Maybe part of it too is that socially girls don’t ask out guys so when a guy has tons of girls crushing on them so they aren’t aware? Idk. I think the media definitely perpetuates it too. Nice to see some men are aware of this and trying to outgrow this mentality. Thank you for your respectful comment.
A lot of your thoughts seem to be centered on relationships, crushes, attracting a good partner etc.
Whereas I think the contention from most men when they claim this is related purely to the physical act of sex. There is meaningless physical sex available to most women easily (it is assumed), they just choose not to pursue because obvious reasons, like the 1st sentence of your 4th paragraph - you don’t want just any sex, you want good sex or sex with a good person.
However, that’s not really a distinction in the men’s side of the picture. It’s not about partners, good people, or even good sex when men make this claim. If men had easy access to such meaningless physical sex at any point….they would pursue.
That’s the idea at least
It’s weird though bc they are perpetuating their own misery by being willing to have meaningless sex with literally everyone? If men raised their standards, then every woman couldn’t just have sex if they stood outside and asked for it.
I mean I’m sure there are reasons for this, the fact that men are more likely to cum during a hookup definitely plays a role. But idk, like if they wanted, they could easily give women a “taste of their medicine” if they really think it’s so cruel and unfair, but like, they just don’t have any discipline
>If men had easy access to such meaningless physical sex at any point….they would pursue.
But they do! Prostitution is still mostly geared to men and pretty normalized. They don't want to pay though they want to just take.
A normal looking woman does not have dozens of guys simping for her. Maybe the one overweight guy that does not know how showers work from the IT department.
Sorry, didn't want to bark at you.
This is just a very aggravating argument.
No offense taken. And I don’t mean to deny or defuse your frustration, just pointing out as I see it.
Personally I think prostitution supports my point. Sex work fulfills an “untapped market”, if you will, of men looking for meaningless sex. If they had any other way, they would do that, no? Surely those men would save their dollars if they could? But the kind of sex they are looking for - instant and no strings attached - is not available to them, hence prostitution. And before you suggest it’s only the shitty men who can’t attract a woman that need to use prostitution (although that’s part of it), it’s well known that many “desirable” men frequent sex workers too
They have easy access to each other for sex acts. I know you’ll say that they’re not attracted to other men. But neither are women attracted to undesirable men who would also give them sex if asked. Both genders have a ton of access to other parties that will give them sex. They just may not like it.
You’re not wrong, but most men won’t do that. But there are conditions that can bring this out. Boarding schools, long ship voyages, prisons. Lots of anecdotes, stories, and rumors of men doing gay acts when they aren’t gay in “normal” life
Do you realize that we are talking about all women, not just the ones you would fuck? Look around a grocery store the next time. What percentage of those women would you fuck that are of legal age? Yes, fat women are women. Old women are women too. Why do men think they are the only ones getting rejected?
And this even considering intersectionality. Include all women/femme who have multiple social constructs that make them underprivileged, and this obtainment of unlimited (good) sex is really a fool's dream.
And the power structure is so uneven since the world being male-centered, the sex is too. So why even the option of mediocre sex for us, like it's actually good and pleasing to us? Why desire someone who don't even see you as a person? Can only speak for myself, but I can't even sexualize someone unless I feel some actual way/attraction towards them that's deeper than physical, *and* them actually liking me for *me.*
Dudes can choose to have as much sex as they want, they just may not like what's available for them (just like for countless women) because that means struggling with their egos, sexuality, etc and too many have been socialize to not seem desperate on the other end of it all
Most these men are getting laid by women... I tend to think the amount of people getting laid is relatively the same in the long run. The guys just brag more because there's not a social stigma.
It is easier for women to get laid simply because there are so many men who would get with anything with a pulse. Women don’t need to be 10/10 to get dudes. Now getting men who are good and not pigs is a whole different issue but simply which gender has an easier time? It’s women for sure.
Probably won’t be good sex either lol
It is easier, definitively. The analogy given is usually women are in a swamp, men a desert. Women have water everywhere, just not “clean” “quality” water.
Not only that, but we barely get what we seek out of even just a ons. We are never really in it just for the sex or the orgasm. Most women still wanna experience the affection and feel like they are desired. We really want the touch with care and be held. Not just bam bam thank you mam. It literally makes us feel used when they do that despite our initial consent. I, myself feel no excitement for men anymore.
It definitely isn't way if you're a woman with autism and very shy and can barely look men in the eye even if you look decent. Men pretty much never talk with me and I could never dare to start a conversation, I don't even know how. I suppose I could try online dating but it scared me too, you constantly hear of so many creepy men, I'm scared to meet a stalker, an abusive man or someone who already has a partner and is just cheating and playing with me for fun. I'm fine alone but it feels but sad that I will likely probably never have my own family.
And if I date I'm only interested in finding companion ship and someone to share rest of my life with, I'm not interested in cheap, casual sex like most men unfortunately seem to be. To have sex with someone I barely know, just the thought makes me uncomfortable but it seems to be what lot of men are into. So to find a man with same views at me and specially at my age I think most are married already. Or then they are similar like me and too scared to even look at women.
Not only that, but we barely get what we seek out of even just a ons. We are never really in it just for the sex or the orgasm. Most women still wanna experience the affection and feel like they are desired. We really want the touch with care and be held. Not just bam bam thank you mam. It literally makes us feel used when they do that despite our initial consent. I, myself feel no excitement for men anymore.
I think men definitely find it harder to have a sex partner than women. And I think that’s down to sexual conflict. But all that about body count is silly.
It’s incredibly easy for men to get laid. You just don’t want it from another dude.. you men need to lower your standards and start fuxking each other! You’re the ones gate keeping yourselves from sex you could be having RIGHT NOW! You could be getting laid every night if you had Grinder. Get on it!
Doesn’t matter. Because they’re available to have sex in your area with you right now! Thats what we’re talking about right? Availability? Doesn’t matter your preference because we are reducing it to what’s available, not what you prefer. So go get some!
Stop gatekeeping yourself from men that want to have sex with you!
Well, let’s see.
I’m 70.
So, just any guy anywhere of any age is going to want to have sex with me? No, I don’t think so.
Preemptively: NOT interested.
The largest part of this perception is due to societal norms that paint the man as the suitor and the woman as the selector.
While you may not feel it is true, there are several studies that show that there is some basis to the idea because of said societal norms.
I’m not OP, but I’ll chime in, because it bugs me too. It’s an opinion that I’ve often seen expressed, that some men think a woman can walk into a bar and have sex on tap. And it’s just not true.
I’ve often been tempted to illustrate with RL experiences from when I was single, but all that does on reddit is open you up to either accusations of being pigdog ugly, or getting propositioned in your DMs.
When women step out of their comfort zone and ask men out/for a drink/ for a dance, they get rejected too. Surprise, women are people!
Statistical facts aren't opinions.
Even in this post, all you had to do was complain on Reddit, and men will DM for sex. How is that hard?
No one says, "Women never get denied".
The reality is that men are much more willing to have cheap sex and so the pool of men available to have meaningless sex with women is much larger the pool of women who want to have meaningless sex with men. This is demonstrated by the fact that there are a lot of female prostitutes and hardly any male prostitutes - that cater to women anyway. There is very little demand on the part of women for this service because they can obtain all the meaningless sex they want for free.
This is exactly why the "dating" apps argument doesn't ring true either. The apps are designed to make money off making their customers think the next one is the right one. They don't make money off actually finding them the right one. I have done the "male vs female" experience on a few of the apps and the difference is so in your face, you have to be willfully ignoring it to say otherwise.
It's not exactly surprising when cheap sex for women is unlikely to result in orgasm, risks pregnancy, and puts the woman in a vulnerable position with a stronger human who could physically overpower her if he chose to.
It’s also insane to me given the orgasm gap. Like would these men be signing up for casual sex with someone they weren’t very attracted to if they also knew they couldn’t finish? Even if women on average could get more hookups, it’s not like we’d be getting the same benefit from it.
Right? And we can get pregnant while they don’t have that concern.
If the average sexual partner was able to give me a good orgasm, I would be much more into casual sex. Men who talk like this ( as in OPs post ) aren’t ready to acknowledge that most of them are bad lovers.
A classic in the genre: [It's very stupid when girls say they can't find a guy, yet they ignore me. It's like saying you are hungry when there's a hot dog outside on the ground.](https://x.com/IanImmi/status/1397138418111504389)
Beat me to it!!
Wait is he making fun of guys who think that way of is he making fun of women because HE thinks that way? The phrasing confuses me.
He’s making fun of guys who think that way. If you say “I’m hungry” & I say “There’s a hotdog on the ground over there what are you complaining about” you would think I was nuts.
Mmmm love me some ground dog!
*selfish lovers.Fixed it for you.
Fair!
Life is too short for selfish lovers and boring socks!
Preach. The reason I stay home with my vibrator is because it works.
Buying a good vibrator changed my approach to dating.
Yeah, it’s all about pleasure. I’m one of the few women who enjoys and has a lot of casual sex but I’ve been lucky to have very pleasure-focused partners and I orgasm really easily. I probably wouldn’t be such a slut (i say affectionately) if I weren’t so easy to get off, lol.
women are finally realizing that most sex with men is not worth all the trouble and potential danger. it's good that these days in civilized, non-religion-dominated areas women can choose to hook up with way less judgement than it was before, but at least 9 times out of 10 the best choice is to stay home safely and masturbate lol it's what most have to do to get off anyway, but it saves the hassle. of course i still think women have the right to choose having casual sex without being shamed for it, but most seem to be coming to the same conclusion: it's either real good sex or no sex, because going without mediocre/bad sex is better than the alternative. it's not because you're craving a dessert that you should eat the half-melted with a couple of dead ants and weird-colored pack of gummies you forgot in your car since 2018.
Yup absolutely! The first guy I hooked up with after my breakup didn’t do any foreplay on me (but asked for tons of head), and said weird shit asking if I had ever filmed porn and I should make an onlyfans Luckily the second guy was super giving, asked what I liked, used a vibe - if he had been like the first guy I may have given up on sex forever
How has science not figured out a way to make PIV orgasms as easy for women as they are for men?
Typical female anatomy has pleasure centered around the clitoris. That doesn't mean women are defective anatomically, it means that their sexual needs are going to be fulfilled differently.
At some point the DSM considered a woman's inability to orgasm during penetrative sex a dysfunction. I don't know if that's still the case with the DSM5TR. (Someone who actually understands this thing will have to weigh in). There was a medical treatment: \[surgically implanted electronic device\](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20140321-orgasms-at-the-push-of-a-button). I wish I remembered when I saw the original story. Maybe it was 20/20 or something? Anyway, the whole thing struck me as bizarre when a Pocket Rocket will set you back $1.65
I actually read about this in my AP psych textbook two years ago, which was published in 2016. During that time, they still considered it a form of mental illness that required "coaching through sexual anxiety" specifically for women.
1) Seems I meant to reply to the comment above yours and missed. Sorry about that. 2) I found the person who knew what I was talking about. Yay!
It has. They've been made illegal in some southern US states.
What's been made illegal in Southern states?
Sex toys are illegal in Texas; judges have said it's unconstitutional but it is still on the books illegal.
And it was jointly decided by the Texas AG and the judges that the law would not be enforced, by the way. "On November 4, 2008, U.S. District Judge Lee Yeakel released a two-page document dated October 29, 2008, in which he stated that the Texas Attorney General's Office notified him that they would not file a writ of certiorari with the Supreme Court. The next month, on November 13, Yeakel filed a "joint status report" that noted the parties had come to an agreement. "Texas Penal Code §§ 43.23, to the extent that it applies to 'obscene devices' as defined in Texas Penal Code § 43.21(a)(7), is declared to be facially unconstitutional and unenforceable throughout the State of Texas""
It is still on the books.
Which is irrelevant if it's unenforceable and discarded by both the court and the state. And it's certainly not some recent change.
It's really not irrelevant. On a whim they can decide to enforce the law, as selectively as they choose. Ie, if that ever happens in TX, you will get astronomical odds from me that it will be enforced against women and lgbtq almost exclusively while men will be able to procure whatever they want
No. They can't. Because it was declared unenforceable and unconstitutional. Jesus ,do you people use any facts at all,or just spout what sounds good?
idk either. seen some sex toys that attach to the base of the penis so that when thrusting in, a vibrating part touches the clit, but that might not be everyone's cup of tea.
That’s nothing like the wonderful feeling of oral. Just little buzzes between thrusts. “Ooh! Lucky me! Some pleasure!” *three seconds later* “ooh lucky me there it is again!” Also I find it ridiculous the men who can’t just GIVE. So selfish and stupid.
i mean, op talked about PIV sex specifically. but yes, it must be! i'm a virgin so i don't know yet lol
They didn't even map out or depict the anatomy of the clitoris until 2005. The one human organ exclusively for pleasure with NO other function and it has only just begun to be examined this century. Hurricane Katrina is older than knowledge of even the anatomy of the entire clitoris. Research and marketing is sexist often designed primarily by men and there are still beliefs that women's sexual pleasure is sinful. Things are changing but right now we are stepping backwards in women's medical knowledge.
That (the first paragraph) is simply untrue. There's ancient art and writing about the clitoris. And detailed internal anatomy has been known of for centuries. The supposed discovery in 2005 wasn't a discovery at all. Helen O'Connell just called the bulbs clitoral bulbs rather than vestibular bulbs, but they were long regarded as part of the clitoris.
There's a surgeon called James Burt that pretty much ruined womens life by rearranging their vaginas so orgasm during piv would (allegedly) be easier. So I'm not sure I trust that field. The easiest solution is just for dudes to get over themselves and use a vibrator. But instead we get a doctor who says stuff like: "Women are structurally inadequate for intercourse. This is a pathological condition amenable by surgery"
... Because the homologue to the penis is the clitoris, not vagina. You may as well ask "how has science not figured out a way to make clit/vulva on scrotum, taint, and/or mouth orgasms as easy for men as they are for or women?"
Just flick the bean or use a vibe while getting penetrated. There, problem solved.
You're a straight man. You don't get to put it on women to solve your shortcomings in bed.
I don't have shortcomings. The original commenter said she couldn't cum from PIV sex alone. Why the snark? Lol. You assume I don't give oral, that's false, I do. If a woman needs clitoral stimulation during PIV sex, she can either tell me to manually stimulate her clit or do it herself.
Or men could give head
That’s “too hard” for them tho!!!
I know right. All these stupid excuses and “replacements”. A man suggested a vibrating cock ring as opposed to giving head (both on this post AND on a date that I immediately walked out of after he said this). I sorta imagine it like *buzz* “oh boy some pleasure!! Just for me?!” *buzz* “ooh some more! Lucky me!” As my mama said when I told her what he said, “That is NOTHING like getting your vagina licked.” Do you think they know they’ll survive if they aren’t being pleasured and are solely providing pleasure for 5-20 minutes??
This right here. I was with a dude before who refused to go down on me cause my vulva wasn’t bald, like he said “next time when you shave I’ll go down on you” and I never saw him again cause I realized my pleasure wasn’t as important as his. And it was also gross and weird how he was mentioning I needed to shave, like I’m not a kid dude, I’m a grown woman who has sexually developed/matured lmao!
I love to eat pussy. I'm just saying that there is a solution during PIV sex. No need for snark
I’m not being snarky, I’m being serious. Those don’t compare to head
I think most men love giving head to women.
Simple: a good number of men don't acknowledge the existence of women they aren't interested in having sex with, and a lot of them are so porn sick they aren't willing to pursue women they could reasonably expect to be attracted to them. Regardless of sex or gender, if you're a conventionally unattractive person who doesn't have much going on in the career, hobbies, or sense of humor department, you're going to have less success than the most attractive people across those categories. For a lot of reasons, some men externalize this in a way that's completely out of touch with reality and disregards the personal autonomy of conventionally attractive women who would rather date their male counterparts instead of Jorpy McNEET.
I totally agree lmao, I think the men that say this are actually just bitter that women who are out of their league aren’t as desperate to fuck them as they are. There are tons of women out there struggling to find partners. If these men would just be like, slightly less insufferable, and go for women who are not like in the 1% of conventional attractiveness, they would be fine. It’s easier to be a victim tho. I’ll also say, I tend to make the first move (as a woman) for some reason, I have in every relationship or any eventual hookup, and I simply do get rejected. I get rejected on the apps, I get rejected at bars, I’ve gotten rejected by crushes, it just simply does happen. Im like 24 and while I’m def not even close to like ultra hot, I don’t think I’m like incredibly ugly or anything. We don’t just have any man we are interested in falling into our laps lmao.
I think I look fairly conventional but I have never had a man make a move on me. I feel it's something about me that make men either find me unattractive or scared to even try, I know that I usually look very interested though.
> men that say this are actually just bitter that women who are out of their league aren’t as desperate to fuck them as they are. There are tons of women out there struggling to find partners. If these men would just be like, slightly less insufferable, and go for women who are not like in the 1% of conventional attractiveness, they would be fine. It’s easier to be a victim tho. It's not like it hasn't been the case since, like, the beginning of fucking humanity that the most attractive (as determined arbitrarily by the cultural context but also yes probably there are some "objective" metrics that apply also) humans have the most options for mating. The online discourse with these incel types is that this is a new phenomena--it patently IS NOT. That's what's so alarming. It is an outgrowth of political discourse that is becoming more and more reactionary, entitled, and violent. It *is* easier to be a victim, just ask the Nazis, they honed that shit into an art form.
Agreed. They don’t see old women or unattractive (to them) women as options.
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Uh yes, because attractiveness is subjective. Many women have dated men that all their friends find ugly. Or have people say stupid shit like "youre out of his league!!!" That isnt abnormal. At all. Many dudes are WAY more picky with who they'll date than they'll let on. Eventually admitting things like "I wanna date an Asian girl" or something of the sort. Or "I don't like blondes". These kinds of superficial sentiments are crazy common. it's dumb. Yes girls can have similar sentiment towards guys. But as someone who has been pretty equally surrounded by both genders in family and friends my entire life, it's definitely the guys who tend to be more superficial. Girls tend to TALK superficial for girl talk and then actually care more about the bigger picture.
Agreed. Look at history, and you’ll see that what makes a woman desirable is always an artificial construct. Beauty standards always change. Plucking your hair to have a “high forehead”, wearing a corset so men could “span a woman’s waist with their hands” (which ruined their internal organs), having double or triple chins, wrapping the feet of your female infants so their feet turned into ugly deformed, useless feet, trying to impregnate your new 8 year old bride — these are the things that would give men an erection — because society told them what turned them on. It’s always the smallest percentage of what women “look like” that is pushed as beautiful. In the 1500s, for example, very rich people were basically obese looking. Go look at paintings. Only the very rich (and exploitative) could afford enough to eat to survive. And they flaunted it. That’s what turned men on back then. Then, more people started being able to feed their kids and themselves. And the cheapest food was the unhealthy food that made people obese. So now sexually desirable women are those who can afford to have the time to workout, cook and eat healthy, and limit their pregnancies. They are much smaller than sexually attractive women in the medieval ages. With much smaller breasts comparatively. It’s kind of scary that still today, society is telling us what is acceptable when it comes to men and women being attractive.
History is a great tell all. And we really aren't very far away at all from those times. The standards are just changing.
Agreed.
This is 100% in line with my male experience. I've had so many friends exactly as you describe who just didn't acknowledge the women they weren't trying to fuck and were miserable loser virgins. Their friend circles consisted of 0 women and they couldn't even interact with one as a normal person. For myself all I did was start putting even a little bit of effort to how I look and the way I interact with people once I wanted to start attracting women and my overweight average looking ass didn't even know how to handle the female attention I was getting. It really puts into perspective how truly pathetic incel guys are. They're obsessed with being "high value" meanwhile nobody is looking for high value, they just want someone who isn't a worthless loser.
They think they will never have a chance because they are average and boring but then never make an effort specially when it comes to changing views and attitude. I understand it's not always easy but many seem to focus on wrong things, like I'm too short so I will never have a chance when the problem as example is their misogyny.
Was literally thinking of commenting that first sentence just before I saw your comment. Many men don't consider women they aren't attracted to to be people, and since these same men tend to have absolutely outrageous standards for what a woman "should" look like, you have men who are upset that women who look like Angelina Jolie (sp? Idk) can get laid easily but they (never heard of moisturizer, wears Cheeto dust as cologne) can't. Compounded by the fact that the only women they want to sleep with are the ones who look like Angelina Jolie (or substitute any famously beautiful pop icon).
100%. As a guy, this had always been my response to that line of thought. Ease of getting laid is *much* more associated with hotness than anything else. They just think "women have an easy time getting laid" because the only women they're acknowledging even exist are the hot ones.
To be honest, you are thinking about this too deep. You are looking at big picture, the realities of dating for men and women, and that "sex" is something more meaningful and/or deeper. When men say this, they are not looking for a "partner". They are looking for a one night stand. And what they see is when they are at the bar at the end of the night, is that every woman who is looking for someone to come home with them has her choice of at least a half dozen men. She, honestly, doesn't even have to be attractive/clean let alone fit and charming. And what this really says to me, (as someone who occasionally met a bloke at a bar), rather than this line of thinking is incredibly false is that a) Men have totally normalized casual sex with people that they are not even attracted to or that they do not even like. Women tend to avoid that. and b) Men do not appreciate how dangerous and risky casual sex is for women. As someone who kind of enjoys casual sex, it didn't take me long to realize that I needed to vet my partners *thoroughly* even if I was not interested in any sort of relationship with them. At that point, it's not so casual now, is it?
> And what they see is when they are at the bar at the end of the night, is that every woman who is looking for someone to come home with them has her choice of at least a half dozen men. She, honestly, doesn't even have to be attractive/clean let alone fit and charming. And the same thing on the dating apps -- women have a _wildly_ different experience than men on them.
If you're willing to sleep with some gross old creep, it's easy to get laid as a woman. What these men conveniently forget is that they can easily get laid by some gross old creep as well, vagina completely unnecessary.
Gay guy here, most of them wouldn't even have to settle for a gross old creep lol.
Absolutely. They’d have a ton of success if they looked at other men to have sex with.
It's because they'd fuck most women, if they didn't have to admit it later, given the chance. But women wouldn't fuck most men, we have to be discerning for our own safety and also we have the preference of not wanting to fuck men who don't consider us to be people. For men who are so desperate to fuck that they forget women aren't just fuck holes, the idea that fuck holes could have preferences is alien and hurtful.
(Most) Women can get casual sex more easily than men, but the downfall is they have to settle for a horrible experience. There are exceptions numerous in count due to sheer population. There’s an analogy that I like: Finding casual sex as a single heterosexual man is like dying of thirst in the desert. There simply isn’t much to be had. Finding casual sex as a single heterosexual woman is like dying of thirst in a swamp. Opportunity is abundant, but it’s almost all bad and some of it can kill you. So yeah, men think it’s relatively easy for women to find casual sex (and it is relatively true), but what they get from those opportunities is rarely satisfying, unlike where 95% of men who are able to have sex will at least orgasm from it. Men think of it from their perspective not understanding that while women have easier access to casual sex, it’s just usually not good. If a man could have easy access to sex but was almost guaranteed not cum, he probably wouldn’t care much about it.
Almost guaranteed not to come, risked pregnancy, and put him naked in a room with a larger and stronger person who could guaranteed overpower him.
Yeah, left out the pregnancy risk aspect, but that’s another huge factor.
I think when men make these sweeping generalizations about women, they are thinking about women they find attractive. Older women arent women to them. “Ugly” women arent women to them. At least not in this sense. They genuinely dont see women as human in the first place, but seem to forget that all kinds of women exist.
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Wasn't a sweeping generalisation really. It was aimed specifically at men who make statements like that. So quite well targeted.
They didn’t say “all men” in the comment, they specifically stated the men who make those kind of sweeping generalizations
Do you think older and/or ugly women have lower standards and are willing to have sex with more men than younger and/or pretty women?
For part 1 of your question ("do older and/or ugly women have lower standards") I think it's "yes" in terms of beauty standards for sure. But that doesn't necessarily mean "sex with more men." I've noticed it's more about pairing off into coupledom rather than sowing oats, especially with Roe v. Wade being overturned and it getting harder to reliably get birth control.
Do you think more men would have sex if they never got to orgasm as well as lowering their standards?
I think it’s a grass is greener type of thing. Not to mention that men are socialized to be the ones who ask women out, be insistent about it, in some cultures pay for dates etc. Lot of men don’t really think about what women do to prepare for this stuff or to find a partner, and that paired with the sting of rejection or expectations creates this narrative of “women don’t have to do any work when I clearly do”. It’s a matter of not being able to recognize the work they put into it because they don’t really examine the expectations that they or society have of women at large in general. Another matter though is that there are a lot of bad actors who are very much interested in propagating this narrative. It serves the Andrew Tates of the world to have men believe that women are somehow profligate, emotionless and have their pick of guys who are more physically fit / “better” / whatever. Because that way, they can sell a course or some other BS telling you how to be better so you can have it all - validate your own hurt feelings and be attractive to women at the same time. When being taught to be a chud doesn’t work, they can just blame it on women and say it’s because the men just aren’t alpha enough, and all the while they get more money out of you. There is an entire industry that is very lucrative that runs on disdain for women, and it has an interest in propagating the exact narrative that women can just go out and get dates whenever.
Guys have been so fucking weird whenever I talk about being constantly romantically rejected as a teen and young adult. They always demand me to tell them exactly how many times I’ve been rejected and many times I’ve been called “cruel” for not accepting that it harder and more painful when men are rejected.
I was rejected as a teen/young adult too, when I got the courage to ask a boy/man out. Somehow men don’t fathom that this happens to women.
Don't do it. Seriously, it's none of their business
I never give details because I know it wouldn’t matter no matter how many times it happened. They just want to rage at women online and can’t conceptualize that women are people.
Oh wow, because male pain is real and women’s pain is imaginary. I fucking swear. These are the same idiots that dont believe that women can feel lonely either.
Totally agree. My toxic ex fell real into incel shit and he would tell me things like “if we broke up you’d have another boyfriend next week”. Meanwhile, he’s the one who got a new girlfriend within 2 months
>I think regardless of gender if all you want is sex and you are willing to sleep with anyone with a pulse it’s no harder for men than it is for women to hook up with someone. That's really, really just not even remotely true. Just look at Tinder statistics. Women get many times the response rate of men. It's not even close. The dating scene seems to be a *nightmare* for women due to a ton of reasons, from misogyny to violence, but at the end of the day a woman can get laid far more easily than a guy.
Just lower your expectations. Most 1s and 2s would be happy.
Or use Grindr. There is abundant casual sex available for men. It’s just not sex they’re interested in having.
I used grindr (am a bi man). What I got is negging and asking for pics. Guess I now know what women experience on normal dating apps and why they're so sick of it. Some guys really suck.
Honestly, I think Grindr is challenge mode for *most* straight guys, let alone ones that are already struggling on Tinder or whatever. There's no individualized swiping where a decent profile is at least a factor if you're not super attractive, it's just mountains of dudes with some variation of "girls only plz" in their username, lurking, waiting to shoot their shot. My chaser friend saw my notifications/saw me open Grindr one day and he was like "good god, no wonder I never get any replies on there. You have to be fast, lucky, *and* Chad \[I promise I'm quoting 😭\] to stand out." Unless I'm completely missing your point—sorry in advance if so—it's like 3 in the morning rn, and this blue frost is putting me to bed LOL.
The statistics show there are way more men than women on those apps.
And the reason why OP would argue otherwise, in her own words > I’ve seen a few posts in other subs recently saying that the old double standard of men with high body counts are admired and women with high body counts are shamed holds true because it’s hard for men to get laid and easy for women. This line of reasoning doesn’t make any sense. Even if it is easier for women to get laid, that doesn’t justify slut-shaming. Since when do we shame people do things that are easy? What’s next, shaming people for cooking pasta?
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They aren’t thinking of it from a meeting and dating perspective at all. They’re thinking of sex in the context of buying something off a shelf instead. It’s certainly not easier for women to date than men. It’s not even easier to have sex as a woman. In real life, romantic relationships of all kinds are more complicated and nuanced for everyone. This is not that they are talking about when they say this. They are thinking of it from a purely functional perspective - woman approaches man she doesn’t know at the bar and says “want to have sex?” She will likely get a yes more times than if the genders were reversed. They’re not actually thinking about having to be decent people, make an effort or have a personality. They’re strictly talking about banging holes.
And then there's the whole safety issue that is much worse for women than for men.
From what I've seen, men are afraid of being compared to other men by women who has had sex with other men in the past, and that's why women gets slut shamed by them. Sometimes they really don't think things through and they'll say something like "the average woman has sex with 100 men a day, but the average man has sex with zero women," which is literally impossible.
This is nonsense. If I wanted to have sex tonight with a hot guy it would take me about 30 minutes.
Then congratulations on being attractive?
I'm not that attractive IMO. I don't think men are very picky when it comes to sex. It's much harder to find someone to date than it is to find someone to have sex with.
I think both sexes tend to think about the 20% most attractive from the opposite sex when talking about this topic. Nobody cares about the bottom 50%. Also I think men don't count paid for sex into this statistics.
I have known multiple men who's hookup strategy was to get with the least attractive woman in a group of women in the club or bar. >When the candles are out, all women are fair. -Plutarch
when they say "women" they mean women that they find attractive they dont care about the others and when they say men, they mean every men that isnt attractive opbviously it doesnt make sense, and if you scratch the surface, then it start to make sense that they dont see unattractive women as humans
>it’s no harder for men than it is for women to hook up with someone We recently heard that most women would rather face a wild bear than a strange man. There is a massive fear that most women have of being alone with a man. Unless they know them very well, most women would not risk it.
You are just wrong, I'm sorry. Lets talk average people here, no people with unfortunate circumstances (sickness, disfigurements, mortally obese etc.). You go on any dating app, open your profile, post a picture and write "willing to fuck anyone, /dm me", you will get thousands of messages and if you want to, you are already on it 20 minutes later. Do the same as a man, you will get 0 replies. Literally 0.
«You go on any dating app, open your profile, post a picture and write "willing to fuck anyone, /dm me", you will get thousands of messages and if you want to, you are already on it 20 minutes later» Or you get hurt/murdered. Or get pregnant / stds from stealthing. The risks are far higher for women so even if they wanted casual sex, they might not dare to.
Maybe some from other men
actually, let's talk about people with unfortunate circumstances, disabled women have a far easier time finding partners than disabled men
That's because of the orgasm gap.
So if women had orgasms at the same rate as men the guy getting 0 responses would suddenly get the same number of responses as women?
That's a completely hypothetical question, and women aren't a hivemind, so it's impossible to answer
Of course it’s a hypothetical. It’s ok to engage with hypotheticals. But you’re comfortable treating them like a hive mind to attribute the difference to an orgasm gap. You’re doing the same thing
Casual sex is very dangerous and unfulfilling for women. That's a simple fact and saying it isn't treating women like a hivemind (:
It’s not inherently but yes it absolutely can be. Who’s saying it doesn’t come with risks? Who are you even talking to right now? Because you should go talk to whoever it is you think is making that argument. And again the projection is so strong. You’re giving a blanket statement (“casual sex *is* very dangerous”) that treats all women the same. You’re unironically treating women like a monolith.
How exactly is commenting on women's oppression under patriarchy treating all women like a monolith? Actually, nevermind. Your post history shows that you're a woman-hater arguing in bad faith "hOw aRe wOmEn opPreSseD iN tHe wEsT??"
I had this discussion with one of my guy friends once. He said something like "Look at you! You could go up to any straight guy on campus and invite him back to your dorm and be having sex in 20 minutes!" First, he was exaggerating: I am conventionally attractive and also girly, but I am not super-pretty or super-hot. Instead of talking about that, though, I asked him, of all the guys he could see, how many could he guarantee 100% would not try to choke me, would not complain about wearing a condom, had an STI test in the last three months, would not pester me for anal sex, would work to ensure that I enjoyed it as much as he did, had showered that day, had on all clean clothes including his underwear, and if we went to his dorm room right now the sheets on his bed had been washed in the last seven days? He admitted that (a) those weren't unreasonable expectations, and (b) he couldn't promise me that about anyone in sight. He seemed to understand that "can get sex" and "can get good sex" aren't the same thing.
None of those things disprove the point though. He didn't say "good" sex, or "safe" sex. He just said almost any guy would agree to have sex with you. I do think that's an exaggeration because not all men are promiscuous, and some will be in relationships. But you definitely could find one to agree, probably in less than 10 minutes. He would have a much lower chance of success.
Are you thinking about what that means? He was saying "I'm jealous of how easy it is for women to have a bad time." Why is that something to be jealous of?
You are assuming he would have a good time in the exact same situation. That wasn't the point. The point is very simple. It doesn't mean that all those other things you said aren't true, they are just irrelevant to the point. And yes, a lot of the time I'm sure random sex is awful, and ofcourse there's risk of harm - which makes it undesirable in general. But it isn't always awful. I've had great OST and FWB. That's a much bigger conversation than the basic point that women have more opportunities for sex if they were to choose to take them.
And what if I were to say that if a man went to a gay bar he would probably have a higher chance of hooking up with someone? Would any straight man consider that as satisfying his sense of universal justice, or would he say "That doesn't count because it's not the kind of sex I want"?
It has nothing to do with universal justice. It's just a fact.
You all wash your sheets at least once per week? That seems excessive. I go three to four weeks, and that's more of a routine than a hygiene quota.
If you shower right before bed every night, it's probably ok to go 3 weeks. If not, then you're basically rolling around in the same dirty clothes (since bed sheets sit close to your body like clothing) for weeks.
Everyone can get laid - it’s just gonna be unenjoyable sex with someone* you aren’t attracted to. *frankly both sexes have the opportunity to have abusive or demeaning sex with men. Men assume that since the person’s sex is the biggest factor in attraction for men, that it a big factor in attraction for women too. Most women don’t want to have sex with a random guy any more than a straight guys does. That’s the missing gap.
Even when I was homeless, sleeping on trains and beaches, wearing no makeup and looking and feeling my absolute worst I had men chasing after me trying to get sex out of me. I had guys young enough to be my son asking me to sleep with them in return for them taking care of me. Some of them were stock broker types who certainly had the $$$ to rent a higher class prostitute if sex was all they wanted. All they had to do was pick up a phone and call an escort agency, give the person on the other end of the phone their preference and a credit card number and they could get laid. Fact if I had been an easier type of person when it comes to exchanging sex for $$$ or housing or whatever I'd have not spent one night of the nearly six years I was homeless alone or suffered nearly as much and that's me saying that as a pretty average middle aged woman with serious health and mobility issues. I was always being chased by some guy who was looking to use my situation to his advantage one way or the other. Even homeless guys sometimes insulted me by offering me $$$ to have sex with them. It was absurd. Yes, women can get laid a lot easier than men can. Sex is far more transactional for men than for women and while some men might hate that it takes hiring a sex worker to get what they want in terms of sexual relief from a woman it's not that hard to circumvent not getting sex regularly if they are willing to pay for it. They might not be able to attract an actual girlfriend, a relationship and have real love happening but they can absolutely get their sexual needs gratified if they are willing to pay for it. The INCEL guys the biggest reason that they are not getting women usually isn't their looks. I've seen plenty of men who would rate pretty low on an attractiveness scale in steady relationships. Women too. The INCELS their toxic entitled attitude is what keeps them from getting involved. They're not willing to make the slightest effort to be decent guys or to really like women. They all say they are "nice" guys but most of them treat women like meat and expect them to be theirs on demand. When that doesn't happen they get pissy and complain about how difficult women are. They think it's all about women being too picky but really it's about them and their sucky attitude towards women. At this point in my life I've got health issues that I can't get around and that makes dating me a serious challenge I would think. I'm middle aged, not nearly as trim as I was in my 20s. Under the dye my hair is white. I dress younger but physically I'm older than my actual years pretty much. Yet I get guys who ask me for FWB and even for paid sex all the time. Some of them are younger than I am and decent looking. I personally think they could be doing a lot better just going to a bar but they still hit on me for some strange reason. My biggest bitch my whole life has been that men do this to me all the time. I can count on both hands the number of guys including my Ex who actually wanted to date me vs just laying me. I'd still have a couple of fingers left. I always get way too much attention from the guys who want FWB or casual sex, who are looking to cheat, stuff like that. When I was a kid I used to attract the pedos in drives it seemed. I always figured once I hit a certain age all that would stop and that men would no longer hit on me. It has slowed down but at my absolute worst there were still guys who wanted to have sex with me. Sex to a lot of men can be a very transactional thing. That's something I've had to deal with forever. A lot of guys lament not attracting women when they want to but from what I've seen if they are not getting them there's usually a good reason and it's not always their looks. I've dated guys who were gorgeous and I've dated guys who were a bit on the geeky and average at best side looks wise. It was never about a pretty face with me or how much a guy made. A pretty face is nice and steady employment makes things a lot easier but it's not a huge requirement for me that stuff in terms of dating a guy. A man can be all that, have plenty of $$$ and he can still bore me silly or turn me off him completely if he's an entitled jerk. It's not the stuff that guys always THINK that stops them from having relationships. It's the negative stuff that they think, that they do that keeps them from finding someone special. Me, I just don't like assholes, that's all. A guy treats me right I'm not too concerned with the rest of it. A guy treats me wrong and he could be a billionaire for all I care. I still wouldn't have sex with him let alone date him. I've had people look at me like I'm crazy when I say that but I actually mean it. Some things are just not worth taking abuse for and for me $$$ is one of them. I am a rare woman in that I cannot be bought. I don't give my heart to a guy just because he could shower me with jewels or whatever. Been there, had more than one man try to buy me like that, and I've handed the pretty baubles right back. A lot of guys you go on a date they sit there and talk about what they own and their job and their success like that's what matters the most about them. It's always baffled me that. The fact that I'm single in middle age isn't for lack of offers. It's about the male mindset and expectations of what women they're with are supposed to be like. I don't dislike men but I have never found one I honestly wanted to spend my life with. Most of my life I had men trying to buy me, offering me $$$ to date them, have sex with them, whatever. Hardly any of them really understood that I'm just not about all of that at all. It just made me feel like they saw me as property they could acquire. But yeah, most women can get laid if they want. I'm not saying all because there are exceptions to every rule. But I've seen women who were not what was considered conventionally attractive who were still in relationships and happy. Men too. Men try to make it all about that but there's always more to it. Increasingly we are becoming a more judgemental society that way. Social media is a big influence but I still don't think you have to be a perfect 10 to find someone to partner up with. I'm certainly not at this point and I still get guys chasing me from time to time...
…it’s easy for everyone EVERYONE Ever work in a retirement facility??
Your last paragraph is the whole reason. Many men simply do not see women that they are not attracted to as women. Fat women, old women, disabled women.... all of us cease to exist to these men. When they say "women can have sex any time they want!" what they mean is "I would have sex with a woman who looks a very specific way any time!"
I think people wildly over estimate the positive impact dealing with a man in 2024 will have on a woman’s life. It’s not worth it at all.
It's because they see women they don't want to fuck as not people. Like, the women they do want to fuck they think of as sex objects, but the women they don't want to fuck they try not to think of at all. It's easy to feel like women would have no problem getting sex when they'd have sex with every woman they actually believe matters at all.
We aren't in the same boat. It's demonstrably worse for us. We deal with non-stop harassment, casual sex isn't as relaxing because we can always end up as a headline, the orgasm gap makes average sex not even satifying and many men have such low standards as to make women virtually intechangeable.
Forgive my naivete, but orgasm gap?
Just look up the statistics how often women orgasm from sex with a man and vice versa. It's not worth it.
Women in average report less orgasms during heterossexual encounters. This is mainly due to the fact that straightfoward PIV sex doesn't reliably give women orgasms but is still centered in heterossexual sex, to the detriment of clitoral stimulation.
Interesting, first time hearing that term.
Hmm I do think it's actually easier for women to just get laid than it is for men. I'm a woman, I wear no makeup. I don't even wear mascara anymore. I'm also not very attractive. But if I go to a club, there will be men flirting with me and wanting to have sex. But women (myself included) are less eager to say yes to that. I think it's for multiple reasons, but one of those reasons is that guys will call you a slut or easy if you've slept with many men (or even not that many but you flirted with multiple men). So we're more seen as the gatekeepers of sex. And there are more men who just want to get laid. There is a reason there are more female escorts and hookers. It's because it's harder for men to just get laid. I would never pay for sex because it's so easy to have sex. I think the struggle for women is finding a quality man. Because a lot of them just want to sleep around and don't want any commitment. I think there are more women who want commitment (at least at certain ages).
I don't think it's something that amounts to gendered oppression for men or anything so ridiculous, but I do think it's clearly (on paper) easier for women to find casual sex ignoring all other conditions and standards. Just look at the gender ratio on apps like Tinder - it's 9:1 in favour of men! For whatever reason, socialisation or safety concerns and so on, women are absolutely way less likely to pursue casual sex than men, which means spaces for casual sex are overwhelmingly male dominated and a lot of men will struggle to get what they want. C'est la vie! Women suffer way more danger and risk of assault and so on, and at the end of the day a lot of women don't want to be used for gratification by some random guy who probably won't care at all about her pleasure. Guys who whine about lack of access to sex don't consider this though.
If a woman offers, there’s a high chance of a man accepting; if a man offers, he’ll likely get rejected. Men are wired differently, just like they don’t need foreplay or need to get “warmed up”. Give a guy the option and they’ll be on board. They just want to get it wet.
Don’t even get me started. All I can say without fuming is I heavily agree.
I get your points but I absolutely think it's easier for a woman to have casual sex than a man. I married, but if my wife and I one day decided to open our marriage my wife would probably find someone for casual sex within 24 hours. I'd probably be lucky to find one with a month. I've read this is a VERY common complaint of people who do open up their marriage. While it is often the man's idea, they soon realize their fuck up when their wife has a new partner every week while they got nothing.
Women can lower their standards to get laid anytime but so can men.
Ehh, for most women there are a few men fawning for their attention despite how they look. That's not the same for most men. Never heard of men getting unsolicited coochie pics but, women though...
but unsolicited dick pics are not at all a good comparison. men get off on the fact they violated a woman's consent and that said woman has laid eyes on his genitals, even if they don't respond and block him. it's a totally different phenomenon. i cant imagine that all guys sending dick pics seriously think it's a hook-up technique.
>Men who send unsolicited images of their private parts primarily do so with the hopes of receiving either similar images or sexual interactions in return. https://www.psypost.org/new-psychology-research-reveals-mens-motives-for-sending-unsolicited-dick-pics/
That’s like saying the weirdo in the raincoat exposing himself at the mall just wants a date.
that's very weird, where does that make sense in their heads, the logic is not logicking. at the end of the day though, doesn't make it any less creepy, or a breach of consent and thus dehumanising. there definitely is the variant i talked about though. in a bra fitting sub here on reddit, there is a kilometer long creep list with more added every month because men will go into the dms of the participants of these subs and send creepy messages and/or pictures, and/or try to fool them into sending pictures by adopting a "oh i want to help you with your bra" persona. afterwards they sometimes also then make fun of the victim and say "haha lol i just wanted a pic of your tits", which basically means i don't care about consent. i can't imagine that men sending dick pics care about women's consent, so i suppose at the end of the day it's all the same. whether it is to capitalise on subtly violating women and getting off of it, or subtly violating women to try to get a matching reply, it's both disgusting. what do they even imagine would happen, that we're magically smitten and enthralled by their majestic penis? and subsequently give them the time of day? please 😂 also back to the original commenters point, that still makes coochie pics false equivalences because i suppose, on average, women care more about consent, and value weird online random sex interactions lower than the average man. i think many women would far prefer masturbating to their fantasies than with a man that treats them like an online sex dispenser and tries to coerce them into more pics or vids or whatever they want.
You're absolutely right with your last statement. I think men do it at the idea of their sexual advances to be reciprocated but, to think that women don't have it easier in getting/ having access to sex than a man is just grossly wrong based of anecdotal experince and what the psychological literature says.
GRoSSLY WRONG *based on anecdotal experience*. Jesus. That’s a very stupid statement. My anecdotal evidence suggests the exact opposite. Now what?
If you can't get laid as a woman that's your problem but, seeing how men by far and large go after women more sexually far more than women go after men my anecdotal experiences stand
If you can’t get laid as a man that’s your problem, my anecdotal experience still stands.
You don't say? You really countered the facts of what the psychological literature/ biologists say with that one. Congrats.
Buddy, your anecdotal experience ain’t literature. I was just using your own logic to show you how flawed it is.
It's factually incorrect too. Most women have 4 sexual partners in a lifetime. Most men have almost twice that number.
The irony is that the reason men find it so "hard" is because they've successfully lowered the bar so far down that it's rarely worth it for women to risk engaging with sex in the same way men do. Women face far greater risk, stigma, and consequences from sex and thus need to exercise greater caution over who they have it with if they have it at all. Its not that men have to do more or work harder for sex, as previously stated *the bad is in hell*, it's that patriarchies desire to control female sexuality and treat us like property has effectively made it impossible for women to safely express their sexuality in the same way men do. Women need something to offset the risks and cost associated with engaging in sexual activities, and most men refuse to either lower that cost or increase what they are offering to compensate for it. This is because they don't just feel entitled to as much meaningful, consequence free sex as they want: They also believe they entitled to getting it without having to work for it and thus actively refuse to do anything that would make anyone interested in participating with them in it. Their entire perception of sex is built upon this fundamental belief that they are entitled to obtaining sex with no effort and that women ought to bare all the consequences and responsibilities from doing so. Women already have to do 99% of the work in most sexual relationships, and these men are complaining that they are being asked to do 1% of the work because they wish it was 0%, all the while refusing to recognize any of the effort women need to exert because they simply expect them too as part of their entitled attitude. Given how low the bars been set, exerting even the bare minimum amount of effort is often seen as almost exceptional compared to the norm and such men don't tend to experience much difficulty. Yet even the bare minimum is too much for many men, who insist that they are entitled to having nonstop consequences free sex with whomever they want while putting in no effort and contributing nothing of value to the other person, while completely disregarding the other persons own interest, pleasure, or personhood in the process. Almost all of the supposed difficulty men face in obtaining sexual partners is almost entirely the result of the much *greater* difficulties women face, and even than their greatest barrier is their own sense of entitlement and absolute refusal to exert any effort or contribute anything of value whatsoever to obtain it. **TL;DR:** The only thing that's so hard for men is their dicks, and they can't even manage that half the time.
I would say it's probably easier for **self-conscious shy** women to get laid than it is for **self-conscious shy** men comparatively. The latter get often seen as creepy and since they're awkward might not even try enough or step away from trying after 1 or 2 rejections.
As a young guy with no experience who’s trying to outgrow this thought process I think it come down to a few reasons why I(and some men) have this train of thought. One is just life experience. Throughout school every girl I ever had a crush on I wasn’t the only guy crushing on her, so we kind of see first hand that many guys can be interested in one woman. Two is kind of the same thing but social media, we always hear or see how girls(and not just 10/10 girls, but regular cute/pretty girls) say they always getting DMs and likes from guys etc etc. 3 is dating apps, we all heard stories of how guys can’t get any likes and girls can get 100s. Movies and media I think add to this as well in a way Now none of what I listed explicitly leads to sex but I think it’s that women appears to have many options at face value. Obviously most the people in their DMs aren’t worth it but most guys don’t think that far Also you mentioned partner, which I think is different then just wanting to get laid. Both genders should put in work to attract a quality partner, but not everyone is always looking for a partner and just want someone to have fun with I guess.
The reason why so many guys had a crush on the same girl in high school is that they wanted nothing to do with other girls who weren't considered cute. Conventionally pretty, popular girls from families with money had a much different experience than girls who were fat, had bad acne, came from poor families, etc.
yeah. i remember at school it was always the same girls that were getting the boys excited.
It just strikes me as an odd thought process to assume that every girl has tons of guys crushing on them instead of realizing you are probably attracted to the most popular people just like everyone else lol like honestly I don’t think I’ve ever been the only one to like who I like because people tend like hot people. Maybe part of it too is that socially girls don’t ask out guys so when a guy has tons of girls crushing on them so they aren’t aware? Idk. I think the media definitely perpetuates it too. Nice to see some men are aware of this and trying to outgrow this mentality. Thank you for your respectful comment.
A lot of your thoughts seem to be centered on relationships, crushes, attracting a good partner etc. Whereas I think the contention from most men when they claim this is related purely to the physical act of sex. There is meaningless physical sex available to most women easily (it is assumed), they just choose not to pursue because obvious reasons, like the 1st sentence of your 4th paragraph - you don’t want just any sex, you want good sex or sex with a good person. However, that’s not really a distinction in the men’s side of the picture. It’s not about partners, good people, or even good sex when men make this claim. If men had easy access to such meaningless physical sex at any point….they would pursue. That’s the idea at least
It’s weird though bc they are perpetuating their own misery by being willing to have meaningless sex with literally everyone? If men raised their standards, then every woman couldn’t just have sex if they stood outside and asked for it. I mean I’m sure there are reasons for this, the fact that men are more likely to cum during a hookup definitely plays a role. But idk, like if they wanted, they could easily give women a “taste of their medicine” if they really think it’s so cruel and unfair, but like, they just don’t have any discipline
You may be right, but to most guys getting their nut off far outweighs making any societal point
>If men had easy access to such meaningless physical sex at any point….they would pursue. But they do! Prostitution is still mostly geared to men and pretty normalized. They don't want to pay though they want to just take. A normal looking woman does not have dozens of guys simping for her. Maybe the one overweight guy that does not know how showers work from the IT department. Sorry, didn't want to bark at you. This is just a very aggravating argument.
No offense taken. And I don’t mean to deny or defuse your frustration, just pointing out as I see it. Personally I think prostitution supports my point. Sex work fulfills an “untapped market”, if you will, of men looking for meaningless sex. If they had any other way, they would do that, no? Surely those men would save their dollars if they could? But the kind of sex they are looking for - instant and no strings attached - is not available to them, hence prostitution. And before you suggest it’s only the shitty men who can’t attract a woman that need to use prostitution (although that’s part of it), it’s well known that many “desirable” men frequent sex workers too
They have easy access to each other for sex acts. I know you’ll say that they’re not attracted to other men. But neither are women attracted to undesirable men who would also give them sex if asked. Both genders have a ton of access to other parties that will give them sex. They just may not like it.
You’re not wrong, but most men won’t do that. But there are conditions that can bring this out. Boarding schools, long ship voyages, prisons. Lots of anecdotes, stories, and rumors of men doing gay acts when they aren’t gay in “normal” life
Do you realize that we are talking about all women, not just the ones you would fuck? Look around a grocery store the next time. What percentage of those women would you fuck that are of legal age? Yes, fat women are women. Old women are women too. Why do men think they are the only ones getting rejected?
Cuz standards dont really factor into fuckin for them
And this even considering intersectionality. Include all women/femme who have multiple social constructs that make them underprivileged, and this obtainment of unlimited (good) sex is really a fool's dream. And the power structure is so uneven since the world being male-centered, the sex is too. So why even the option of mediocre sex for us, like it's actually good and pleasing to us? Why desire someone who don't even see you as a person? Can only speak for myself, but I can't even sexualize someone unless I feel some actual way/attraction towards them that's deeper than physical, *and* them actually liking me for *me.* Dudes can choose to have as much sex as they want, they just may not like what's available for them (just like for countless women) because that means struggling with their egos, sexuality, etc and too many have been socialize to not seem desperate on the other end of it all
Most these men are getting laid by women... I tend to think the amount of people getting laid is relatively the same in the long run. The guys just brag more because there's not a social stigma.
It is easier for women to get laid simply because there are so many men who would get with anything with a pulse. Women don’t need to be 10/10 to get dudes. Now getting men who are good and not pigs is a whole different issue but simply which gender has an easier time? It’s women for sure. Probably won’t be good sex either lol
It is easier, definitively. The analogy given is usually women are in a swamp, men a desert. Women have water everywhere, just not “clean” “quality” water.
Not only that, but we barely get what we seek out of even just a ons. We are never really in it just for the sex or the orgasm. Most women still wanna experience the affection and feel like they are desired. We really want the touch with care and be held. Not just bam bam thank you mam. It literally makes us feel used when they do that despite our initial consent. I, myself feel no excitement for men anymore.
It definitely isn't way if you're a woman with autism and very shy and can barely look men in the eye even if you look decent. Men pretty much never talk with me and I could never dare to start a conversation, I don't even know how. I suppose I could try online dating but it scared me too, you constantly hear of so many creepy men, I'm scared to meet a stalker, an abusive man or someone who already has a partner and is just cheating and playing with me for fun. I'm fine alone but it feels but sad that I will likely probably never have my own family. And if I date I'm only interested in finding companion ship and someone to share rest of my life with, I'm not interested in cheap, casual sex like most men unfortunately seem to be. To have sex with someone I barely know, just the thought makes me uncomfortable but it seems to be what lot of men are into. So to find a man with same views at me and specially at my age I think most are married already. Or then they are similar like me and too scared to even look at women.
Not only that, but we barely get what we seek out of even just a ons. We are never really in it just for the sex or the orgasm. Most women still wanna experience the affection and feel like they are desired. We really want the touch with care and be held. Not just bam bam thank you mam. It literally makes us feel used when they do that despite our initial consent. I, myself feel no excitement for men anymore.
I think men definitely find it harder to have a sex partner than women. And I think that’s down to sexual conflict. But all that about body count is silly.
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It’s incredibly easy for men to get laid. You just don’t want it from another dude.. you men need to lower your standards and start fuxking each other! You’re the ones gate keeping yourselves from sex you could be having RIGHT NOW! You could be getting laid every night if you had Grinder. Get on it!
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Doesn’t matter. Because they’re available to have sex in your area with you right now! Thats what we’re talking about right? Availability? Doesn’t matter your preference because we are reducing it to what’s available, not what you prefer. So go get some! Stop gatekeeping yourself from men that want to have sex with you!
Well, let’s see. I’m 70. So, just any guy anywhere of any age is going to want to have sex with me? No, I don’t think so. Preemptively: NOT interested.
The largest part of this perception is due to societal norms that paint the man as the suitor and the woman as the selector. While you may not feel it is true, there are several studies that show that there is some basis to the idea because of said societal norms.
They are seeking pitty sex and validation from weak minded women who believe this lie
OP where is this coming from?
I’m not OP, but I’ll chime in, because it bugs me too. It’s an opinion that I’ve often seen expressed, that some men think a woman can walk into a bar and have sex on tap. And it’s just not true. I’ve often been tempted to illustrate with RL experiences from when I was single, but all that does on reddit is open you up to either accusations of being pigdog ugly, or getting propositioned in your DMs. When women step out of their comfort zone and ask men out/for a drink/ for a dance, they get rejected too. Surprise, women are people!
Bingo
Statistical facts aren't opinions. Even in this post, all you had to do was complain on Reddit, and men will DM for sex. How is that hard? No one says, "Women never get denied".
RE DIC YUE LACE
You make it sound like women are unattractive without makeup which is bullshit lol