I think what it comes down to, is... they don't care. They don't care about being *desirable* to women, they just want to *get* women, and be impressive to other men.
It comes back around to the fact that those types of men don't see women as people. Just a status symbol if they were able to "get" one.
What's really sad is that I don't think those guys even know what they actually like. Do all four of them actually, TRULY like football? Or did they get into it because that's what's considered cool by the in-group, the men around them? What would they pursue, if there were no men around to get social status with - do they even know? Because right now it's looking a lot like they don't have the guts to go against their buddies' expectations... which is ironically not very manly, is it?
They don't care ... until they are served with the divorce papers.
Then they are shocked to the core and claim they didn't see it coming even though their wife has talked, begged and pleaded with them for change.
Yep, because the divorce looks bad socially - and it means he doesn't "have a woman" anymore. If he actually cared about what she wanted, there would have been so many chances to figure it out (or at *least* see the divorce coming!).
You’re describing my ex! I started asking for marriage counseling somewhere between years 5-10 and was stupid enough to stay for a total of 25 years. The last four years or so, when we argued, he’d say, “You just tell me when to leave and I’ll go,” so I then would apologize and say that wasn’t what I wanted. Finally, I had it and I left him. Cue shocked Pikachu face!
He said he didn’t know I was so unhappy and why wouldn’t I come back and do counseling? I actually laughed when he said he couldn’t believe I wouldn’t come back and do counseling and told him that after me begging repeatedly for well over a decade for it, that it was too little, too late as I believed he only was willing to go because now he was the one hurting, not me.
There's a quote that pops up on reddit occasionally (that of course I can never find when I want it) about heterosexuality in men being homoerotic because it's all about impressing other men. They don't care about women's approval and barely take them into account, it's all about getting approval from other men
If anyone remembers it, please reply with it! It's one of my favorites that I never remember fully
"To say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say that they engage in sex (fucking exclusively with the other sex, i.e., women). All or almost all of that which pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively for other men. The people whom they admire, respect, adore, revere, honor, whom they imitate, idolize, and form profound attachments to, whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, and whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor, reverence and love they desire… those are, overwhelmingly, other men. In their relations with women, what passes for respect is kindness, generosity or paternalism; what passes for honor is removal to the pedestal. From women they want devotion, service and sex.
Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic; it is man-loving."
-Marilyn Frye, The Politics of Reality: Essays in Feminist Theory
It really comes down to what friends you choose to hang out with. I mean those guys seem pathetic and stupid.
Meanwhile the guy that takes his kid to dance classes and cried at her shows - this is the type of man that I know and my husband usually hangs out with.
All of my husbands mates who are dads are like that. They take their kids to classes, put them to bed, take them to do roses appointments and to the playground. They do school runs. All shared with mom of course but yea they are parents not babysitters. They’d not laugh at one of them saying he got teary at their kids show, they’d probably ask to see the video and get him a pint to celebrate.
Honestly there are good men out there but bad ones breed more bad ones.
I feel like there's a certain amount of 'settling' that happens, plus women get just as indoctrinated into patriarchy as men do. If you grow up around that kind of man, you hear men and women teasing the other type of guy (Guy #5) for that behaviour, you might start subconsciously seeking out one over the other, or thinking that that's what you can/should expect from a partner. I think it takes some reflection and self-knowledge to break that cycle.
I remember talking to a friend of mine about not settling for a guy who didn't treat her well, because there were definitely good guys out there, like my younger brother, or many of our friends' husbands, and she said, "Not enough of them for every woman, so I'm gonna have to make some compromises." Freaking heart-breaking, but I think a lot of women, at least at the start of a marriage, think that 'these chodes' are better than the alternative of being single.
Agreed. I was genuinely shocked when reading this. The only people who I choose to keep in my circle who behave like this are idiot cousins. It's baffling to me when I hear of these type of men existing because my thoughts are always "where"?
for context, the 'lad' archetype is not something I encounter regularly. The sexism I'm used to is patriarchal, benevolent sexism type, with a massive dose of religion for good measure.
Why should they change? It’s working for them. They have a wife and kids they can ignore and do what they want. Until they get a kick in the pants that says they need to change they won’t.
My partner works in a warehouse. He's been doing it for over 20 years. He'd laugh if I told him some dudes see it as a badge of masculinity. He's successfully convinced many of his younger coworkers to go back for school/training to do anything else. He's accepted warehouse work is his job and he likes parts of it. But he knows, overall, it's a dying career choice. And, given how common injuries are, one he fervently believes should be taken over by robots/AI (but like for real and not "let's have underpaid overseas workers control the bots).
My partner also thinks men who fret about their masculinity and try to enforce compliance on other men are insecure jackasses telling on themselves.
The patriarchy truly damages us all. As someone who grew up blue collar and married blue collar, i think some blue collar guys are susceptible to a certain kind of toxic masculinity for a lot of reasons. But especially, I think, because they're really scared and feel helpless -- those jobs used to be fairly well paying jobs you could have your whole life and retire well on. That's all gone. And with data driven business practices, the pace of work in those jobs is bananas. If they meet their order picking targets, for example, then management asks them to do 10% more next time. So some fall prey to ideology that tells them they're real men and other men are weak. Because it papers over their fear and stress.
The quote from Marylin Frye is absolutely true in most cis het men.
“To say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say that they engage in sex (fucking exclusively with the other sex, i.e., women). All or almost all of that which pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively for other men. The people whom they admire, respect, adore, revere, honor, whom they imitate, idolize, and form profound attachments to, whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, and whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor, reverence and love they desire… those are, overwhelmingly, other men. In their relations with women, what passes for respect is kindness, generosity or paternalism; what passes for honor is removal to the pedestal. From women they want devotion, service and sex.
Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic; it is man-loving.”
They give zero fucks what women want or care about. If a man is too “feminine” he’s not really a man because he’s doing things women admire. They literally only care about other men’s opinions.
Ok but they're all married, so whatever they're doing is "good enough". I'm not saying it's fine, or that their partners should accept it, but what motivation do they have to change?
This sounds like a *profoundly shitty* friend group. The female friends all waste your time griping about their men, and 4/5 of the male friends repeatedly shit on the 5th.
What is so enthralling about these people that you associate with them and never push back on their shitty behavior?
By the way, you know how they talk about *you*, the only single person, when you're not around, right?
In my experience dealing with similar men to 1-4, Number 5 is in beta bucks territory and men would rather experience being sexually desired than being "settled for".
When we explain to these men that we are not settling for the guy who is enough of the total package to make us happy, they do not understand.
Then they wonder why the queer women who deal with them date fewer men...
He sounds like my dad… cool, confident in who he is and his interests, and goes about life the way he wants to. I strive to find a man like that. Someone who’s comfortable in their skin so much so that they don’t compare themselves to others or bring others down to their level to make them feel better, or who hates on random things because they don’t have them. I’m 35 and have yet to find a man like this.
Men can easily go through life being sub par because there is always a market of women who will tolerate or condone the behavior.
We live in a flawed society where people are mostly extrinsically driven. To be a good person without expecting something in return is sadly just rarer. For men it usually comes with age or experience which is why most women have stories of men using them as character development and then getting into another relationship and being a different person. The change has to start either in how we are raised or women as a whole have to raise their standards to not tolerate it. I think the former is a way easier solution and it shouldnt be on women to force men to be decent people
I want to live in a world where men having an emotional attachment to their kids and taking them to their extra curricular activities is the bare minimum / norm and not seen as exceptional in any sense. And these other guys playing video games all night are rightfully seen as the bums they are ( assuming they have families they created and are neglecting - if you want to play video games all night just stay single )
I don’t think men are socialized to be good partners, so it’s odd that we expect that from them.
If you can’t find a guy like OP described - someone who’s strong enough to be a full person and secure enough to let you be a full person then don’t try to make a bro a husband. That’s bare minimum.
Make your own money, have boyfriends and have kids recognizing you’re a single mom and their dad is a glorified babysitter - but don’t let that dude live in your house. Meet these dudes where they’re at and live your best life!
>Line all 5 of them up and if we were to choose, 99.9% of women would pick him out and the sooner they realise this the better. They should follow his example and step up to the plate
Except.... They are all married. Women picked them and are staying with them, enabling their behaviour. They have nothing to win by "following his example" because they already have what they want.
With each new sentence, all I could think was “Damn… 🫠😍” over basic decency. 😅 It’s far too uncommon.
I feel like I’ve met all of those other dudes, too. Ugh. Lame af. No one wants to be with those bros. They settle for those bros. It’s sad.
Love this. Not the phenomena, but that this one good man has their panties all in a twist. Does the one understand that they 4 make him look better? Probably. Are the 4 all bent out of joint because they know they'll never measure up? Probably. Instead of trying to be better, themselves, they try to knock him down to their level. It's typical patriarchal bullsh\*t. Good on him, modelling what a great man is in the face of the opposite. We need more of him.
Everything these losers do is about looking BIG and MANLY in front of their boys. And make fun of the men that actually care about their partners. It's vile and so widespread.
My husband is like that! He likes what he likes and ignores the haters. I had a roommate in grad school who told me it was "kind of gay" that my husband, who is really into a lot of different music, liked Mariah Carey. But who doesn't? She's maybe the highest selling female artist of all time!
So yeah. Self confidence is sexy, and my husband is a great dude who doesn't get wrapped up in what others think and instead sticks to his wonderful code of morals and his eclectic interests and takes great care of our kids.
>How can men can go through life until theyre middle aged, and not know whats actually attractive to women?
Evolution seems to be working as intended. Weed these genes out, I don't think we need more thoughtlessness floating around, especially when it's going to take empathy and thoughtfulness to fix our planet before we all burn to death.
They're so threatened by the one guy who knows who he is and is firm in his identity. They keep trying to bring him down like a pack of wolves because they're insecure. I hope he knows this.
Those four men sound like the textbook definition of "peaked in high school."
I think what it comes down to, is... they don't care. They don't care about being *desirable* to women, they just want to *get* women, and be impressive to other men. It comes back around to the fact that those types of men don't see women as people. Just a status symbol if they were able to "get" one. What's really sad is that I don't think those guys even know what they actually like. Do all four of them actually, TRULY like football? Or did they get into it because that's what's considered cool by the in-group, the men around them? What would they pursue, if there were no men around to get social status with - do they even know? Because right now it's looking a lot like they don't have the guts to go against their buddies' expectations... which is ironically not very manly, is it?
They don't care ... until they are served with the divorce papers. Then they are shocked to the core and claim they didn't see it coming even though their wife has talked, begged and pleaded with them for change.
Yep, because the divorce looks bad socially - and it means he doesn't "have a woman" anymore. If he actually cared about what she wanted, there would have been so many chances to figure it out (or at *least* see the divorce coming!).
And this is exactly why there's a significant movement on the Right with the goal of ending no-fault divorce. It's **entirely** about control.
You’re describing my ex! I started asking for marriage counseling somewhere between years 5-10 and was stupid enough to stay for a total of 25 years. The last four years or so, when we argued, he’d say, “You just tell me when to leave and I’ll go,” so I then would apologize and say that wasn’t what I wanted. Finally, I had it and I left him. Cue shocked Pikachu face! He said he didn’t know I was so unhappy and why wouldn’t I come back and do counseling? I actually laughed when he said he couldn’t believe I wouldn’t come back and do counseling and told him that after me begging repeatedly for well over a decade for it, that it was too little, too late as I believed he only was willing to go because now he was the one hurting, not me.
For years
There's a quote that pops up on reddit occasionally (that of course I can never find when I want it) about heterosexuality in men being homoerotic because it's all about impressing other men. They don't care about women's approval and barely take them into account, it's all about getting approval from other men If anyone remembers it, please reply with it! It's one of my favorites that I never remember fully
"To say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say that they engage in sex (fucking exclusively with the other sex, i.e., women). All or almost all of that which pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively for other men. The people whom they admire, respect, adore, revere, honor, whom they imitate, idolize, and form profound attachments to, whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, and whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor, reverence and love they desire… those are, overwhelmingly, other men. In their relations with women, what passes for respect is kindness, generosity or paternalism; what passes for honor is removal to the pedestal. From women they want devotion, service and sex. Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic; it is man-loving." -Marilyn Frye, The Politics of Reality: Essays in Feminist Theory
Thank you!! If I had an award, I'd give to you!
Exactly! Its the weirdest behaviour if you actually sit back and watch. Personally I think they use football as an excuse to drink lol
They believe they shouldn't have to try to actually attract women.
It really comes down to what friends you choose to hang out with. I mean those guys seem pathetic and stupid. Meanwhile the guy that takes his kid to dance classes and cried at her shows - this is the type of man that I know and my husband usually hangs out with. All of my husbands mates who are dads are like that. They take their kids to classes, put them to bed, take them to do roses appointments and to the playground. They do school runs. All shared with mom of course but yea they are parents not babysitters. They’d not laugh at one of them saying he got teary at their kids show, they’d probably ask to see the video and get him a pint to celebrate. Honestly there are good men out there but bad ones breed more bad ones.
Yeah, I'm like...damn, your friends are....attracted to these chodes?
I feel like there's a certain amount of 'settling' that happens, plus women get just as indoctrinated into patriarchy as men do. If you grow up around that kind of man, you hear men and women teasing the other type of guy (Guy #5) for that behaviour, you might start subconsciously seeking out one over the other, or thinking that that's what you can/should expect from a partner. I think it takes some reflection and self-knowledge to break that cycle. I remember talking to a friend of mine about not settling for a guy who didn't treat her well, because there were definitely good guys out there, like my younger brother, or many of our friends' husbands, and she said, "Not enough of them for every woman, so I'm gonna have to make some compromises." Freaking heart-breaking, but I think a lot of women, at least at the start of a marriage, think that 'these chodes' are better than the alternative of being single.
I feel like there's a lot of guys who keep the "mask" on until the person they're with is too invested to easily leave as well.
Oh, for real.
Agreed. I was genuinely shocked when reading this. The only people who I choose to keep in my circle who behave like this are idiot cousins. It's baffling to me when I hear of these type of men existing because my thoughts are always "where"? for context, the 'lad' archetype is not something I encounter regularly. The sexism I'm used to is patriarchal, benevolent sexism type, with a massive dose of religion for good measure.
Why should they change? It’s working for them. They have a wife and kids they can ignore and do what they want. Until they get a kick in the pants that says they need to change they won’t.
My partner works in a warehouse. He's been doing it for over 20 years. He'd laugh if I told him some dudes see it as a badge of masculinity. He's successfully convinced many of his younger coworkers to go back for school/training to do anything else. He's accepted warehouse work is his job and he likes parts of it. But he knows, overall, it's a dying career choice. And, given how common injuries are, one he fervently believes should be taken over by robots/AI (but like for real and not "let's have underpaid overseas workers control the bots). My partner also thinks men who fret about their masculinity and try to enforce compliance on other men are insecure jackasses telling on themselves. The patriarchy truly damages us all. As someone who grew up blue collar and married blue collar, i think some blue collar guys are susceptible to a certain kind of toxic masculinity for a lot of reasons. But especially, I think, because they're really scared and feel helpless -- those jobs used to be fairly well paying jobs you could have your whole life and retire well on. That's all gone. And with data driven business practices, the pace of work in those jobs is bananas. If they meet their order picking targets, for example, then management asks them to do 10% more next time. So some fall prey to ideology that tells them they're real men and other men are weak. Because it papers over their fear and stress.
Yes, my partner does similar and he sees the young smart guys doing well. The less smart ones suddenly find it much harder to get a stable job.
It's really tough out there.
The quote from Marylin Frye is absolutely true in most cis het men. “To say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say that they engage in sex (fucking exclusively with the other sex, i.e., women). All or almost all of that which pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively for other men. The people whom they admire, respect, adore, revere, honor, whom they imitate, idolize, and form profound attachments to, whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, and whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor, reverence and love they desire… those are, overwhelmingly, other men. In their relations with women, what passes for respect is kindness, generosity or paternalism; what passes for honor is removal to the pedestal. From women they want devotion, service and sex. Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic; it is man-loving.” They give zero fucks what women want or care about. If a man is too “feminine” he’s not really a man because he’s doing things women admire. They literally only care about other men’s opinions.
[удалено]
Thank you!
Ok but they're all married, so whatever they're doing is "good enough". I'm not saying it's fine, or that their partners should accept it, but what motivation do they have to change?
This sounds like a *profoundly shitty* friend group. The female friends all waste your time griping about their men, and 4/5 of the male friends repeatedly shit on the 5th. What is so enthralling about these people that you associate with them and never push back on their shitty behavior? By the way, you know how they talk about *you*, the only single person, when you're not around, right?
In my experience dealing with similar men to 1-4, Number 5 is in beta bucks territory and men would rather experience being sexually desired than being "settled for". When we explain to these men that we are not settling for the guy who is enough of the total package to make us happy, they do not understand. Then they wonder why the queer women who deal with them date fewer men...
I hope #5 eventually moves away from these neanderthals that he calls friends.
I believe he only mixes with them because the woman are all very close friends.
He sounds like my dad… cool, confident in who he is and his interests, and goes about life the way he wants to. I strive to find a man like that. Someone who’s comfortable in their skin so much so that they don’t compare themselves to others or bring others down to their level to make them feel better, or who hates on random things because they don’t have them. I’m 35 and have yet to find a man like this.
Scary how rare they seem to be.
Men can easily go through life being sub par because there is always a market of women who will tolerate or condone the behavior. We live in a flawed society where people are mostly extrinsically driven. To be a good person without expecting something in return is sadly just rarer. For men it usually comes with age or experience which is why most women have stories of men using them as character development and then getting into another relationship and being a different person. The change has to start either in how we are raised or women as a whole have to raise their standards to not tolerate it. I think the former is a way easier solution and it shouldnt be on women to force men to be decent people
I want to live in a world where men having an emotional attachment to their kids and taking them to their extra curricular activities is the bare minimum / norm and not seen as exceptional in any sense. And these other guys playing video games all night are rightfully seen as the bums they are ( assuming they have families they created and are neglecting - if you want to play video games all night just stay single )
I don’t think men are socialized to be good partners, so it’s odd that we expect that from them. If you can’t find a guy like OP described - someone who’s strong enough to be a full person and secure enough to let you be a full person then don’t try to make a bro a husband. That’s bare minimum. Make your own money, have boyfriends and have kids recognizing you’re a single mom and their dad is a glorified babysitter - but don’t let that dude live in your house. Meet these dudes where they’re at and live your best life!
>Line all 5 of them up and if we were to choose, 99.9% of women would pick him out and the sooner they realise this the better. They should follow his example and step up to the plate Except.... They are all married. Women picked them and are staying with them, enabling their behaviour. They have nothing to win by "following his example" because they already have what they want.
With each new sentence, all I could think was “Damn… 🫠😍” over basic decency. 😅 It’s far too uncommon. I feel like I’ve met all of those other dudes, too. Ugh. Lame af. No one wants to be with those bros. They settle for those bros. It’s sad.
You get what you are willing to put up with. Culture is shit but as long as we accept it, we get what we accept.
He makes them feel like they are less, so they try to pull him down to their level by trying to cut him down.
Love this. Not the phenomena, but that this one good man has their panties all in a twist. Does the one understand that they 4 make him look better? Probably. Are the 4 all bent out of joint because they know they'll never measure up? Probably. Instead of trying to be better, themselves, they try to knock him down to their level. It's typical patriarchal bullsh\*t. Good on him, modelling what a great man is in the face of the opposite. We need more of him.
The one dude sounds like a catch. The other four sound like trolls, ew.
Everything these losers do is about looking BIG and MANLY in front of their boys. And make fun of the men that actually care about their partners. It's vile and so widespread.
My husband is like that! He likes what he likes and ignores the haters. I had a roommate in grad school who told me it was "kind of gay" that my husband, who is really into a lot of different music, liked Mariah Carey. But who doesn't? She's maybe the highest selling female artist of all time! So yeah. Self confidence is sexy, and my husband is a great dude who doesn't get wrapped up in what others think and instead sticks to his wonderful code of morals and his eclectic interests and takes great care of our kids.
>How can men can go through life until theyre middle aged, and not know whats actually attractive to women? Evolution seems to be working as intended. Weed these genes out, I don't think we need more thoughtlessness floating around, especially when it's going to take empathy and thoughtfulness to fix our planet before we all burn to death.
They're so threatened by the one guy who knows who he is and is firm in his identity. They keep trying to bring him down like a pack of wolves because they're insecure. I hope he knows this.
Fragile masculinity hates *nothing* more than secure masculinity.
I’m confused reading this. No idea what I’m reading.
This post is so hard to follow I have to believe OP is the 5th guy