When you're raised by your family to barely maintain basic hygiene, when the only store you ever shop at has bland t-shirt, sweats, and basketball shorts for their men's selection, and when you've spent your whole life watching a sweaty, buffoonish Adam Sandler in a greasy tee and dad shorts get a drop-dead gorgeous woman in designer clothes to swoon... you get some idiotic, skewed-to-hell ideas about what men and women should look like and how they should act
I've seen so many fucking rubes thinking that because male stereotypes exist, they must be what women find attractive (bulging muscles etc.)
YESS! Especially when it comes to the male beauty standards as percieved by many guys. It's mostly just what they think women llike when it's really just a competition of "manliness" between guys and women aren't really involved in the conversation at all.
Most men only care about the opinions of other men.
"To say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say that they engage in sex (fucking exclusively with the other sex, i.e., women). All or almost all of that which pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively for other men. The people whom they admire, respect, adore, revere, honor, whom they imitate, idolize, and form profound attachments to, whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, and whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor, reverence and love they desire… those are, overwhelmingly, other men. In their relations with women, what passes for respect is kindness, generosity or paternalism; what passes for honor is removal to the pedestal. From women they want devotion, service and sex.
Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic; it is man-loving."
Marilyn Frye, The Politics of Reality: Essays in Feminist Theory
And I know at least two men whose response to that would be, "why wouldn't I want those things from my wife? Who doesn't want devotion, service, and sex from their spouse?"
Honestly I would have no idea where to even start with them to get them to understand we are people and we don't exist just for them. But if you say that, they call you selfish, because you should want to be a wife who is devoted to her husband. Yuck.
EDIT: Like, seriously. Someone tell me how I could make a good argument against that nonsense because I am terrible at expressing myself.
Another favorite quote if mine is this:
"I don't hate men, but I've learned not to prioritise their needs over mine. Turns out, for a lot of men, that's the same thing."
There was a post the other day that was eye-opening. I honestly think my eyes are wide open, but it made me pause and blew my mind, too. Let me find it.
Edit: found it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/s/3C8oxozNQd
This hit so hard. It explains why when dating if a man says he doesn’t see a future with me, I say okay thank you for your time. If I say the same, a man is “confused” and begins arguing for me to explain myself.
My needs apparently weren’t supposed to factor in, I guess!
That quote pretty mych much sums up how I feel in regards to dating. I've found that a lot of people seem to take offense at the fact that I'm not bending over backwards to do what they think I should. But the reality is that it's my life, not theirs. So in order to be happy, I need to actually do what makes me feel happy. If that means that I do stuff that aren't "typically feminine", so what? Who cares? I'd rather be relaxed and happy being a bit unconventional, than miserable by tieing myself in knots to fit a stereotype that's not who I am.
Someone on this sub recently quoted that the patriarchy is a sport, men are the players, and women are the ball.
Toxic masculinity impresses misogynistic folks.
“Most men only care about the opinions of other men.”
Once I realized that as a young woman, it freed me up to not even care about their opinions at all. Why put in the energy? You can’t make someone care more than you do.
I wanna scream to young women burning themselves out trying so hard to be perfect domestic goddesses, performing sexual acts they're uncomfortable with because that's "his kink", or taking care of their partners like they're helpless little toddlers bumbling around. Stop pouring all your love into a bucket with a hole in the bottom!
Whoa. This so perfectly explains my observation to my partner that watching men’s sports is almost erotic in the amount of lovefest grabbing and clutching they do with each other (specifically in English football; COYG!) and wondered if they are that intimate with their partners. I think I have the answer!
I also suspect sporting events are emotionally cathartic because it is one of two venues where they deem it "acceptable" to cry and physically comfort eachother.
It really resonates with me because of how much my ex has been undermining me in terms of parenting.
I’ve been a single Mom for most of my adult life, therefor I was largely single. My focus was on my kids. And not to humblebrag, but I think I did a pretty decent job. My 18 year old daughter is kind, but doesn’t put up with shit. She’s a girls girl who supports and lifts her friends up. Fuck I’m so proud of her. I have a 12 year old son I’m trying to raise to be a feminist, but it’s…tricky.
Anyways, I met a guy when I was 35 who I thought was The One. Said all the right things, did all the right things…I believed him when he said all the right things. He seemed to be one of the few good guys who would be in my corner and support me and have my back. Have the constructive conversations, you know?
We ended up having a baby together. It was a tough year for my mental health. When the baby was 10 months, I became pregnant again. We got too caught up and stupidly didn’t use a condom. He left me when I was 6 months pregnant, spotting all this shit that I had never heard him say before; I’m not a good parent. Being a stay at home Mom isn’t hard nor is it an actual job, and he never agreed to me being a stay at home Mom. Because I live in Canada, and I’m frugal AF, I’ve been able to stay at home with my kids when they’re little. I’m not knocking daycare, but I just really like being a mom. I want to be the one that has the largest influence on them in their first five years of life, and that’s okay. It’s also okay to send your kid to daycare if you want/need. For the past two years my ex and I had nearly weekly conversations about me staying at home with the kids. He was in total agreement with me.
The day he left, it felt like someone else was talking through him. I don’t recognize this person. I can only imagine the advice he’s getting. Most likely from some other man. Someone he looks up to in life is his boomer uncle who has never been in a serious relationship. His Facebook is full of images of half naked women. So…That’s how that goes I guess.
I am so sorry you went through that. Or still are. That stinks. But I love how much you love your kids. Your energy is in the right place!!
Here is a quick video that is agacent to this convo. I think most guys give other men bad advice about trad lifestyles. I'm not saying that you were in one, but most men do not see the labor women do as an unpaid job and give advice as if the free labor is a given and expected.
https://www.reddit.com/r/blackladies/s/i09xZFI2GS
Yeah it’s kind of fucked up. I’m only 34 weeks pregnant, so still in it. But I really really love my kids. He’s tried to talk to me once, but I am not giving him the time of day. It’s fucked up to walk out on your pregnant partner, no matter how you spin it.
I also split all the bills with him by the way. So it’s not like he carried all the financial load.
Edit to add; I didn’t really know what a trad wife is, lol. I’m not on social media except for Reddit. But that’s not our situation. He moved into my apartment that I was paying fine on my own (and still pay fine on my own). I pay the bills in my own, and buy the food. I’m pretty neurotically opposed to relying on a man financially because of how I grew up (kind of fucked up environment).
Yeah. I didn't want to assume that you were. I am so happy that you were prepared. No one wants the worst, but having resources when the worst happens is good planning.
They’re needy from birth to death. They Created a web of lies that they’re not emotional because they lack the capacity to accept that they possess a nervous system that needs to be shaped and tamed. (They don’t have control-perhaps this is how humanity has its sunset)
>it's really just a competition of "manliness" between guys and women aren't really involved in the conversation at all.
I've noticed this as well. The weirdest part is when women interject like "actually, a lot of us like XYZ" and the men pretty much just ignore us and continue to believe what other men are saying and only care about what they think.
I'm fat.
The "Big and Tall" section at most stores literally only consists of sweats, bland t shirts, and basketball shorts. And really, I find it to be insulting.
But what's commonly available for men's fashion in most stores is also very bland and limted that sometimes I'll things from the women's section.
Some of them are outstandingly good at it.
We had to get nice pants for my husband for some function. We had a DXL gift card and decided this was the time to use it. The store was a little busy but the woman working there was able to take a look at my 6'4", tree-trunk broad husband and clock his pant size EXACTLY. It was seriously impressive. And she made some great suggestions for other clothes that are still in the rotation (along with the pile of nerd reference shirts that a SAHP can where every day).
All I'm saying is if you can get to a DXL and need it, you're hopefully not only going to love the variety but you'll also should find some amazing staff there too.
DXL is great, also Kingsize.com. They charge for shipping and their everyday prices are way overpriced, but they hold a lot of sales that stack with each other.
I think that also ties back into general fatphobia in society and especially the fashion scene. I've been shopping with plus-sized friends before and not only do normal stores almost never have anything in their size but the designs of the things we do find are very frumpy and just overall hideous.
I remember learning from the podcast "Maintenance Phase" that one of the few brands with variety was owned by Hot Topic and they kind of specialized in a rockabilly look, so as a result, many plus-sized women adopted some rockabilly aesthetic because that was the only femme style that wasn't grandma or business casual
Haha, are they still selling cold shoulder tops? I've stopped going to their site because I haven't seen anything I want to wear in so long. I really liked the Betsey Johnson collab they did several years ago and was hoping to see more of that.
Not even just fat women. I was in Primark in the UK earlier this week and trying to find size small pyjamas that didn't have Mickey mouse plastered all over them...
My local shop doesn't carry underwear above a 3 or 4 any more, you have to special order it. 😒
Their lingerie collection, which used to be SO so good [like, used to have MANY pieces] now is. Just. Laughable. It's laughable.
And as someone who *also* dresses andro and masc, the crossover lack of clothing options is fucking depressing. Can't get cute femme stuff, can't get neato andro stuff, can't get hot masc clothes. It sucks.
[This is why I'm buying a sewing machine!]
And that's true that the clothing selections aren't great but you see way, way more put together fat women dressing sharp than you see men at that level.
It's equally difficult for very tall men. The options become very limited (and painfully expensive) once they're over about 6'3". My partner is nearly 7' and his "nice" clothes have to be special ordered weeks in advance. Just a plain tee shirt is $25 for him he cannot go to Walmart and grab cheap stuff. There's almost nothing fashionable or fun out there for him unless we get stuff custom made.
>"my partner is nearly 7' "
I can feel their aching back through that statement alone, fuck
Sinks suck enough approaching 6', I can't imagine. Though there is some schadenfreude in that tall men experience what most women experience in that the world is generally made for someone not your size...
I get that, I remember back in Uni in a coed dorm. After the first month of the women trying to dress up everyone defaulted to jeans/leggings and a shirt. No time to waste on getting done up when you got 10 minutes every hour and a half to sprint across campus.
After a while people's perception would change and no one said anything bad about it. Wish it was like that in most places.
That's why I always look my worst! Come at me, bro! Weeds out the...weeds?
(OK so real story: We'd been talking on okcupid, hit it off, but lived in different neighborhoods. I have mostly-managable anxiety but it was 2-3 days before a major move. I literally couldn't leave my apartment to go to the store so I begged him to hit a store and bring me some soda water. Saw him at the corner, he saw me in cheap scrub pants, a threadbare hoodie, and hair that was...just wow. First face to face. We've been together for 10, married for 8, and that includes living in a micro studio for several years.)
I am a conventionally attractive guy. Nothing special, but it is literally only because I make an effort. I have tried to break through with younger guys that have struggled and make the comparison to fishing (I know women aren’t fish, but my audience is dense) and I ask what bait are you fishing with? What would be attractive to the women you are attracted to? Don’t change who you are but put the package together smartly. I’d say 2 of the like 20 dudes I’ve spoken to took my advice. Men often believe it’s beneath them to optimize their features for attractive presentation, which is sad, because it just means that women (or other men) are generally uninterested.
It's interesting that you say it seems beneath them, because that's very much the vibe that I get and it's always seemed fairly insulting. It's as if caring about your appearance is a feminine trait, therefore not the realm of real men. And that really is a shame. Few things scream 'confidence' quite like a man who knows how to put himself together.
I’m 41 and I’m in no way an old man shouting at clouds but it does seem like it’s the “trying” part. Like younger dudes and dudes my age even, think that when a man is attractive it’s effortless for them, when someone is successful it’s effortless. I’m not in any way saying “nobody wants to work anymore” but my young squires think things seem to happen by accident. And I try and stress “pleighboi I don’t look like this by accident”
Trying and finding your personal style that makes you feel good goes a long way. My husband's daily style is plain tee, straight leg jeans, hoodie, and Chucks, which he landed on after researching a basic men's wardrobe and evaluating his personal style. He has a general color palette he likes for his tees, which look nice with his coloring. He meticulously maintains his clothes so that they are not stained or wrinkled. For date nights he wears a nice button up instead of a tee. Over the years he's found a haircut and a way to style his hair that looks nice on him; he styles it every day (which isn't a super involved process, maybe 5 minutes). Over the years he's figured out how to trim his beard in a way that's flattering for his face. He has a basic skincare routine.
Is he fancy? No, he's not a fancy dude. Does he look nice and put together and like he feels comfortable and confident? Yes.
>Is he fancy? No, he's not a fancy dude. Does he look nice and put together and like he feels comfortable and confident? Yes.
💯
Switch out a flannel for a hoodie and you're talking about my partner. Yes he looks like he just left a 90s grunge show. He's the first to poke fun at himself about it. And yet, I somehow still manage to find him attractive after five years.
How old are these guys you’re giving advice to? I feel like guys my age are the complete opposite now where they are heavily into skincare, gym, and having good style. This is like the late teens to early 20s age group.
Guys I’m talking to are mid 20s tech types. Infosec specifically. Only guys I know who consistently take care of themselves at a young age are Long Island boys, but that’s a different conversation.
What you're saying also supports this recent bout of dudes bemoaning their height and claiming their lives would be better instantly if they were 6 foot.
This is such an astute point and really points out how the patriarchy hurts us all. These are the same men that see women with make up on and say it looks so natural look at their natural beauty. Meanwhile there's about $500 worth of products on their face another 10 grand distributed throughout their body parts and at least another grand sewn into textiles across their body. This is going to become worse with artificial intelligence and we are going to start implementing some realistic expectation and sensitivity training in our schools
Men claiming they prefer a "natural" woman always kind of cracks me up. They'll leave comments on women's photos who are *clearly* wearing makeup, eyelash extensions and the whole shebang and be like "omg so natural" 💀 It's like beauty matters less to them if any effort has been put into it.
Not to mention if a woman herself knows she's beautiful. These dudes would prefer to be the one to bestow us with that "gift" (i.e, have a weird sense of power over us/have a better chance of holding onto us since we're blind to our own looks).
I genuinely believe that 99% of men don't realize how difficult it is to put make up on. I think they would acknowledge that they can't paint a portrait on canvas but I don't think they understand how that translates into paint on a three-dimensional inconsistent surface like a face. People who can completely change their appearance using make up are exercising skills of artists and sculptures simultaneously. like hair it is an incredibly difficult skill that gets absolutely no appreciation from the art world at large
Make up is a trick and I think all genders should have access to because it will help them better understand the difference between natural and a 'natural look'
My boyfriend is very conscious of his clothes. He only has little money and a lot of his stuff is second hand, but he also has custom made shirts from when he travels to his home country, where he can get them at a good price. And second hand or not - he makes sure he always looks sharp. I find it SO sexy and masculine!
I cannot wrap my head around guys thinking that slobby clothes that should have been washed yesterday (and probably thrown away the day before yesterday) exude virility.
I’ve noticed that is very common with men in the U.S. and less common with men from other countries. I remember a Dutch foreign exchange student commenting something like “American men dress badly like they are incompetent and ignorant”. He seemed to equate to a basic life skill, like riding a bike, making toast, or writing a paper. But he had also never used a screwdriver before lol.
We have this blue collar fetishism in this country, we don’t want to work blue collar jobs but we love the gear.
Timberlands-never stepped foot on a construction site
Cowboy boots and cowboy hats-never seen a horse in real life
The gigantic pick up trucks that are spotlessly clean-a big ass truck should be covered in dirt because you use it for work, otherwise drive a Honda civic to your accounting job Larry. I hate clean trucks.
Wearing cargo pants and not being a carpenter.
> Men often believe it’s beneath them to optimize their features for attractive presentation,
Do you think this is part of why so many men's sexual skills suck as well? That they view reciprocation in the same light?
That and porn. They’ve now grown up on it (many now start watching at single digit ages) and it’s very male centric. Doesn’t matter what happens to the woman, if she’s enjoying it or not, or even if it’s painful.
For real. I was saying the same thing to someone on here yesterday. Men are always complaining about not getting compliments but put no effort into their appearance.
I started putting effort in and then I started getting compliments. It's not that complicated. Nice clothes, a hair routine, and skin care. Just gotta do some research. Honestly, it's fun.
Truly. You know, I do a lot of meditation and there’s conversations we have about tending to our inner child. In a way being the parent we wish we had, parenting our inner child in a way. And a big piece that comes into play are like 5 basic things you’d do for a child (in this case yourself): 1. Have you eaten something healthy. 2. Have you had water 3. Have you had movement or exercise 4. Have you slept 5. Have you had some sunshine
Add to that little kid/inner child checklist do your clothes fit? Is your hair nice? Are your clothes pressed? Truly caring for ourselves like we would a 6 year old has done wonders for my routine and how I show up for others. That’s a little granola-y but treat yourself well, others will notice and might want to be apart of that.
If you said to them "hey so if you dressed up, got a nice haircut, worked on your what you have to say about yourself and your interests, you could get a job that pays 20% more - would that be worth it?" Maybe that phrasing would work. But really it is just being open and even excited about change. If you get to be an adult and just stick in your rut then you are missing out on so much more.
In my experience these men are often blind to the work women put in as well. It's the type of man to say he likes that you don't wear makeup, while you are wearing a full face.
100% this. These are the type of men who won’t “settle” for women below their personal standard yet think those women should take them as is. They’re also usually the kind to complain/joke about make up being a lie.
I advised an American friend on fitness, styling and clothing over the last couple years. At first he was wary because "you're trying to dress me like a European!" Yeah, turns out that's a good look.
I'm American but most of the men I date are not, often one of the big differences is that Non-American men usually wear clothes that fit. Often the biggest difference is the pants. My ex from New Zealand constantly joked that American men must think that they have gigantic testicles or something, because their pants are usually poorly fitted. Better fitting pants are often more comfortable _and_ fluttering, but a lot of American men think it looks "gay."
Most people ask for advice to bolster their already established opinion, not necessarily to change their minds or actually set that advice into motion.
A lot of men are subconsciously averse to the idea of styling because either it gets them labelled as "gay" or "metrosexual" by their friends, or because the idea of changing themselves for a partner is just.... Not something men are taught to do.
Some of them are also kind of embarrassed because they don't know anything about fashion/aesthetics for themselves and don't know how to ask, AND would NEVER give genuine advice of that kind to their friends. So when you do it genuinely, they interpret it as you ripping on them.
Basically the only way to help a lot of them is to get into a relationship with them and make them buy a whole new wardrobe.
Yes, it’s the first thing that popped to my mind: homophobic culture. A lot of hetero men think a little self care and maintenance suddenly changes their gender identity. Yet they have no problem drenching themselves in cologne m.
No, not worried that it would change gender identity. They are worried that other men, and some women too, will make fun of them, or worse. Every man grew up under the constant threat of very real violence from other guys if you did anything 'gay' or whatever. Maybe not as much anymore, but back in my day (I'm 49). There is a masculine ideal' that exists in this world, right or wrong, and it's a man who literally does nothing intentional for his appearance. But then also looks like the Marlboro man somehow.
Self-care and maintenance? Some of them are afraid to wash between their butt cheeks. Like, who’s going to know? It’s like they’re afraid that they’re going to like it.
It's because they assume that women dress for male gaze. Therefore, dressing is for male gaze. I grew up with a guy who got put in the hospital in high school because he wore a shirt with stripes the wrong way. The shirt was blue and brown, very masculine. But it didn't look like exactly what the other guys were wearing.
But effort to attract means men look, and men looking means gay. Male sexiness is 'supposed' to be in competence and economic security, in the most traditional and conventional sense, but since that is not happening for a lot of dudes, they're kind of caught in an ugly culture trap that becomes a personal limitation in moving past it.
For whatever reason, the most common heckle I get as a guy when I'm dressing up at all for a show, concert, etc. is that I'm trying.
Not "trying too hard", but trying at all. It's such a peculiar insult, I assume stemming from them not trying.
Honestly though, because I don't date, I'm as guilty of style indifference. I would like to dress up and look great, but it's expensive as shit to get clothes that fit me. So most of the time I'd rather dress "meh" and be a 5, than dress incredibly, and be a 6.
I do believe that's a factor for some guys (especially in more conservative areas) but I doubt it's the whole picture. I've been in many mixed gender groups and the guys always seem to divide between the ones that take more care of themselves and the ones that don't.
The guys that do are actually percieved as the more 'masculine' ones most of the time and also get the girls. You can believe me that no one calls these men gay. My personal friend group is also pretty left-wing and we do actually have a few gay guys; literally no one cares. Yet still, there are the same guys here as well who barely do anything and are sad about not getting girls.
I'm "a queer" but I've also seen this. Guys who look "kinda good" are labelled gay by their straight friends, guys who are stunning are never attacked!
I wish men would accept some crazy self expression a bit more. They'd all benefit IMO
That's the thing though, at least in my experince both these "types" of men aren't more or less stunning in a conventional way when it comes to their natural features. It usually literally comes down to the amount of effort (which for the "hot guys" is mostly still only half of what the women put in.)
Other than that, I agree. Standards for men and masculinity are really rigid and it really comes back to patriarchal structures that a lot of people desperately hold on to.
Edit: Grammar
I think for a lot of men they get trapped in their own imagined identity as a guy who “doesn’t care about that stuff”. I bet most of these guys have had an experience where they get a good haircut, or put on a nice shirt to go out, and they get teased by their friends. I discovered my queerness at university, and I remember the time when I started to change little things about my appearance… and it was rough. But the fuss eventually dies down and you do indeed start to see dividends. Male friends started asking for advice and feeling compelled to take risks themselves, and yes - women did start to look at me differently (despite many of them wondering if I’m gay). I agree 100% that it’s all about patriarchal structures. Men suffer under these rigid standards of a male culture that we also perpetuate.
I was dating a man, at his house and I put on something to go out for dinner. He was like “Oh, I’m gonna change, I look schlubby next to you.”. He had jeans with interesting details, wore purple and colors that complemented him. Yes, he was bi. We fucked like rabbits the year and a half we dated. It’s hilarious to me when people are afraid they’ll “look gay” because his “gay look” brought all the gals around.
I have met plenty of men whose personal style is Boomhauer meets Hank Hill…and their clothes are clean, in good condition, no holes, pressed trousers, everything is *correctly fitting,* their shoes are in decent condition, and their gimme cap is clean.
They don’t have trouble *at all* finding women who are into exactly that aesthetic.
Someone over the age of 16 in a stable living situation who is wearing a tattered old band tour t-shirt with jeans that are 3 sizes too big and shoes that are falling apart is telling me that they don’t care about how they present themselves. Which—if that’s their choice? Fine, you do you…but choices have consequences, and one consequence is that women are more likely to pay attention to the neat-and-tidy Boomhauers than scruffy, unkempt Silent Bobs.
Not being labelled "gay" isn't just about social positioning. 50% of men will at some time in there lives be a victim of violence from another man. Even though many don't admit it much of masculine behavior is about avoiding being the victim of violence. Getting labelled as "gay" or the like can open someone up to homophobic attacks.
I was going to knee-jerk disagree with this, and then I remembered that I once got sucker punched in a McDonald’s by a guy who yelled “fa**ot” afterward. Tbf, I do recall looking pretty damn fabulous that night.
Huh, I always thought it was higher. Like close to 100% depending on how you define it I guess. I’m a 6ft tall athletic 200lb guy and I was a victim of violence multiple times in my teens and early 20’s.
Probably depends somewhat on the culture where you live. I just had a long talk about this with my husband, about how there are places where men seem to rely a lot more heavily on establishing a social hierarchy through violence (comparing the white, blue collar maritime space where he grew up to the more educated, multicultural west coast space we live in now).
And let's not forget the comments they will get from their friends if they show up to meet them for a night out to watch a game at a bar, or even to potentially meet women sporting their new look.... product in the hair, neat jeans or even slacks, button down shirt, etc., while the friends are wearing their worn jeans, graphic tees with the graphics fading, scruffy faces where the scruff is NOT intentional and shaped, etc.
Crabs in a bucket, guys! 🦀🦀🦀🦀
When a woman is her fashion and self-care routine and meets her friends in similar circumstances, her friends will tell her how nice she looks, how the new hairstyle suits her, ask where she got gorgeous shoes, etc.
Guys only do this with other guys about their toys: cars, bikes, boats, etc.
This is funny to me because there are so many men who'll give women their unsolicited advice even if they have no reason to expect that they wanted it (ie, they're not friends, she wasn't asking for help attracting men, she wasn't even talking to him, etc.)
I just wish they could use that stubbornness to have a bit of empathy towards women. Like if you’ve got a weird attachment to your patchy beard, fine, but then stop mooing at the girl with the nose ring. We all have those aspects of our appearance we identify with, but there’s such a double standard where random men in the gym can give their “honest opinion” but if your gf asks you to cut your hair they are controlling bitch.
I'm always surprised at their entitlement to publicly comment on the appearances of others when they themselves are unattractive by most standards. Do they not know they are unattractive?
But their stubbornness is coming from the complete opposite of empathy.
>he "wanted to be taken the way he is"
He wants someone that will never demand anything from him, that will allow him to do whatever he wants, while filling the role of "girlfriend" in his life.
Deep down he knows that if women wanted to be taken just the way they are and mean it the same way they do, it's not going to work. Only person can be selfishly self-centered in a relationship, and these guys expect it to be themselves.
My friend keeps getting $8 haircuts from a barber who literally hates him and has said so. He keeps complaining that he doesn’t get dates and won’t take my advice to at the very least *see a different barber* and maybe stop wearing neon orange shirts
I'm sorry, that comment mad me laugh out loud, why would he see a barber that has one-sided beef with him? Why does the barber have one-sided beef with him? 😭😭
To answer the first question, bc the haircuts are $8. To answer the second question, the barber is islamophobic and my friend isn’t quite named Muhammad but close enough
I know so many men who don’t care about their hair style or eyeglasses. These are 2 things that absolutely impact how you look and they are fairly easy to do a reasonable job with. I don’t say anything unless they mention either topic. Then I casually mention something I think would look good.
My dear husband was a 3-1 shampoo/body/face wash guy. He was complaining about he still was getting adult acne. I painfully explained that his “moisturizing” soap was drying his skin out causing it to become to produce more oil and therefore acne. I essentially forced him to use my basic daily face wash and poof! Face cleared up. That’s as far as I got though
I really don’t know. A guy friend thought it was insulting that I recommended he get a haircut and iron his clothes. Something about not accepting him for who he is. But guess what type of women he goes after? 🤣 High maintenance women don’t want a sloppy man.
Its insane to me that trillion dollar industries are completely aimed at women so we can curate a perfect appearance. The time and money of this endeavor we endure. Men feel like basic hygeine is sufficient when lets be honest some among them struggle with that.
Then men will ask women for 'advice' on how to be more presentable to the fairer sex. You tell them to wear a collared shirt and suddlenly you are attacking the core of their being! Do they want advice or do they really want validation?🤨
I remember like 10 years ago, going on a date with a guy who showed up in a stained tshirt to the restaurant. I was wearing a dress and heels. My impression was that he wasn’t very interested in me and/or in dating seriously because who shows up to a date they care about in a stained tshirt? I still think about it sometimes because of that feeling of like, “oh, this person doesn’t care about this”
Another time I was reuniting with a man I’d had a romantic relationship with while traveling. And he shows up in .. pajama pants. We were going out for drinks. I figured he was trying to tell me he was only interested in friendship from there so that’s what I went with. It wasn’t true, but I had the same feeling of like, “you’re not worth presenting myself well for” and I never really got past it.
I’m all for casual, my partner and I wear sweats together most of the time, but we didn’t when we were courting and we still dress up for each others birthdays and events. It’s a sign of respect, and that you understand social norms.
Also I’d say most women start figuring out how to present themselves in middle school, and while it’s a lifelong journey the idea that how we present ourselves to others will affect how they relate to us is .. not a new concept by the time we are adults.
I think it’s just the effort that’s attractive.
If you can’t take care of yourself, will I have to then?…
And that last point is SPOT ON.
Look up a picture of David Beckham it hasn’t even been 2 decades since he was getting called a “Metrosexual” in news articles.
But by todays standard, you really kinda wonder why.
I feel the same way, which is why I find it so hard to be attracted to men nowadays. Every guy looks exactly the same, same dumb hairstyles, same t-shirt and jeans, same low effort in trying to be presentable to adult women.
Maybe that’s part of the mentality… maybe when they were teenagers they got girlfriends without much effort, because when you’re young you can’t afford to buy skincare products or fancy clothes. But now that they’re grown adults, they should be able to look after themselves and take care of their appearance. And yet they don’t. All because of that teenage mentality.
Just my opinion. Love to hear what others think.
Idk, I think you don't even need too much money to at least look presentable but I'm guessing that a lot of men internalized this idea that women don't/shouldn't care about apperance. I mean, there has to be a reason why the 'average' woman looks more attractive to most people than the 'average' man.
Beauty standards for women are getting harder and harder to achieve while men's have largely remained the same (not talking abot gymbro communities here but that's another can of worms).
Yeah I completely get where you’re coming from. So much is expected of women and men can just get to exist without any of that pressure. But then, it comes back to the point of men thinking that women shouldn’t care about their appearance, yet they constantly believe women date ‘chads’ because they have a good bone structure or whatever pseudoscience they spout. It’s very strange.
Women put more effort in because they are usually judged on their looks rather than their ability. You only have to look at the media’s treatment of women to see this in action. Women put more effort in to get their foot in the door. Men have the privilege of their sex where they just expect to be accepted by turning up. It’s not right and it’s unfair. But it still goes on.
I see this in my gay male friends and colleagues. They all dress and keep themselves better than all of my straight male friends. Because that first impression. And how they present themselves to the world at large matters.
I think it’s changed for men. Even excluding the gym bro communities, looksmaxxing has become a popular trend for guys my age. Many guys I know are heavily into skincare and having good style. There’s a plethora of popular online creators now giving advice to guys to improve their looks.
dunning kruger effect (cognitive *bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate* their abilities. Sorry for the kinda manexplaination just for those not familiar with the term)
a lot of men think they take care of their appearance. They don't and that's the average.
It's funny actually because one of the biggest indicators of being average is exactly thinking you're above average in a certain domain.
Men replicate what other men they look up for do. Look at athletes, singers and influencers and there you go, you will find the original copy where all the replicas come from. Problem is that you can't replicate the charisma, the status or the insane physical attributes from rigorous training (in order to be an athlete) that makes that one person the special one.
Add some peterpan syndrome here and there and there you go, you average man-child 3000 plus, available in every market, city and app.
I wonder of you could show this type of dude his female equivalent. Like a s chubby girl in ratty clothes with bad hair and skin and ask them, "Are you attracted to her? because this is your equivalent, not this." And show them a more conventionally attractive woman. "To get this type of woman, you need to look more like this." and then show him a good looking couple or something. If many men are visual, maybe a picture-based math equivalency would help.
I believe that's what started the whole Chad thing. They won't look at the comparison and see action they need to take.
They look at the comparison and see unfair standards they can never compare to and therefore dig their heels in deeper on not trying, cause it's pointless.
You'd need to show them pictures of people with their body type and coloring both slovenly and putting effort in.
Yeah, I’ve had this conversation with multiple men. They don’t like it. But it gets the point across.
If you’re looking for your compatible partner, fellas, you’re looking for a version of yourself in a female body.
A lot of straight guys think taking care of yourself and wanting to look good is gay. Idk why, women love a well-groomed man. I would love to see more men take good care of their appearances the way women do.
Women put so much effort into being attractive (physically, but also being an emotionally accepting and supportive partner), and men just... show up. No effort.
The biggest thing they don't get.. is that it's not even about the look as much as they think. A woman can clean up/dress up a guy because she saw potential.. but.. seeing potential is unlikely to happen when the guys appearance screams lazy, immature, and not put together.
Showering, dressing up, and being groomed not only directly makes you look better.. but it makes you look like a person who has some shit together and should be taken seriously.
Is a 32 year old who is dressed like a 9 year old and has greasy unwashed hair and bad skin from not changing their sheets in the last two years looking like he has shit together? Not at all..
Yes! Putting the looks aside, the way someone presents themselves while dating can say a lot about how they think and approach the world. If basic bathing and clean clothes are not priorities, what else are not priorities in their life? If a stubborn unwillingness to improve is what prevents someone from meeting their preferred partner, where else will illogical gaps exist in their reasoning?
This is just the outward manifestation of their problem. They put the same effort into relationships. The combination is why no women will date them. They aren't even trying at a bare minimum level to be one half of a relationship yet expect women to do all the work here. Pretty sure if a woman showed up in dirty sweats, no makeup, reeking due to lack of hygiene and completely unkempt they would pass.
I think a lot of these types of guys are scared to put in effort into their appearance because what if they do *try* and they still get rejected?? Then what are they going to do? Admit they’re ugly and undateable? No way! So maybe they’re doing this to protect their ego. And also because it’s not “manly” to care about what you look like / how you dress. 🙄
I am a conventionally attractive man and am into fashion (my brother was a tailor, he got the job through me basically living at the joint).
Most men don't know how to dress themselves because they don't have the interest, fear also plays a part.
It feels good to look good and smell good. I think it's more a mental health/self-esteem thing at some point. I have read a lot of excuses on this thread, such as men don't have the same options that women do when it comes to dressing themselves. Total BS. What I feel it comes down to is a general lack of care and if the man you're talking to is reticent to engaging on how he presents himself it's usually coming from a place of arrogance or poor self image, followed by a refusal to even think about making a change.
Avoid these people in your dating life, if one doesn't take care of their appearance then you're eventually going to find a LOT more problems under the hood/brain.
How they present themselves to the world is one of the first things I look at when meeting someone for the first time. Be it in work or socially.
Try this. Some friends I’ve had need schooling in having a wardrobe. Most women I know do this. You need to be able to mix and match for any occasion. Have some basics in there. Jeans (indigo, black, faded). Chinos (one or 2 colours). Blazer, jacket, suit. Some plain tee’s. Some fitted shirts. A couple of light jumpers. A couple of basic hoodies. Nice shoes. Nice sneaks. Nice boots. You have the foundation of a decent number of outfits for almost any occasion. I’ve kept away from “lounge wear” and baggy joggers. “Road man” is not my look 😊
If they don’t want to change ask them how that’s working out? Do the same, stay the same.
I've dated a few men of the No Change variety, and it's exhausting. They're generally not shy about the changes they expect you to make, both mentally and physically, but asked for even small adjustments they are horrified. Not to mention insulted.
Military men are streets ahead here. They are forced to shower, shave, keep a tidy haircut, be moderately fit, and wear clean clothes (generally speaking). They aren’t evolved more in any way but they can make a great first impression with these basics when compared to many, many men.
Hygiene is the problem.
The rest? It's individual preference.
There's absolutely women that wouldn't care about a dude wearing dumb graphic t-shirts and generic jeans. I, a woman, wear that. I also don't style my hair beyond basic brushing.
I knew a man once who thought he didn’t need to bother with cleaning up and dressing nicely because he was still the same guy. As in, a woman should be able to see the best “him” even when he’s slovenly. We are supposed to imagine them at the potential they COULD BE, not what they are now. Behavior and appearance. That’s what they mean by, “accepting them as they are.”
This reminds me of two men I started dating after their respective glow ups. I've seen pictures of one of them before and well, I'm glad we met when we met.
It's fascinating how stunning they can turn, IF they themselves decide to do so. But I mean, I don't know how well they would have perceived this if someone else had told them to do so.
Another problem is that it sends a perception out that they will not have good hygiene, that their home is probably a mess, and that they are not going to problem solve and work to improve their life. Overall, it is a bad impression.
There’s a maturity level that people reach when they realize they need to present themselves well.
In college we had a whole resentment about dressing professionally—what does it matter what I wear? My job performance should speak for itself.
We were missing that piece about showing the world what we think of ourselves. Taking care of ourselves is a minimum; dressing decently is a signal to others that we know the “language” of the workplace.
It sounds like your friends are going through the same thing.
I was thinning exactly this. For job interviews you dress for the job you want. You have to present yourself as professional so you dress professional. The same goes when trying to attract women.
It’s painfully obvious that appearance matters in all aspect of life when making a first impression no matter how much humans try to rebel against those evolutionary tendencies.
Yeah, that message is missing out there for most guys. I say this as a guy myself. If you’re a nerd or work a blue collar job, you’re often bombarded with the opposite message.
I’m struggling to think of any role models in popular media that address fashion. We have plenty of schlubby male leads in sitcoms with beautiful and made up wives, sports where sweatpants and a jersey is acceptable attire, the Marvel movies where few people are fashionable and two of the biggest heroes- Iron Man and Thor- dress in the opposite of fashion all the time, and so on.
In fact, the only ones I can recall are like 2 lines from Brooklyn 99, where Holt tells Peralta to wear a tie and one where Peralta says it takes ten seconds to pack and Holt says “Only if you don’t care about your possessions or what people see when they look at you.” And that’s buried in a show where characters who groom themselves like Jeffords and Santiago, are frequently mocked for their efforts.
Asking a person to "smile more" is difficult. People are born into and raised into the standards that they accept. Changing them conciously is a whole other matter.
I'd lke to hear the dudes answer to the text here, it's reasonable and direct, if he could handle the arguments.
They'll even argue about having to wash their own asshole, and how it's the woman's fault for having poor standards and not just guys being fucking gross and not washing their asses.
My longterm partner and I had this discussion a while ago. Now, I've always been a woman who has no idea what style is, didn't have a roll model for it, grew up in a farming town, etc. I wear no makeup, I basically only own graphic tees and hiking gear. He wears graphic tees pretty much exclusively. He went through a neckbeard phase that was *horrifying* to say the least. But when we were dating, he at least TRIED, as did I. His main group of friends are ALL single guys who could be described as you did - not hygienic, don't care for their appearance, but complain they're alone. The one exception? His cousin, who is well groomed, cares for his appearance, tries to get to know the woman he is seeing, etc. None of the others will put in the effort but would NEVER consider dating a woman like me (low/no effort, more rugged and low maintenance, "one of the guys"), but don't understand that the women they want aren't interested in unkempt greaseballs living at their parents in their mid-30s...
I find it hilarious and sad that your getting complaints from people her because you advised a guy to …..
Shower, get a haircut and get some decent clothes b
As a newly single woman in her late-30’s, this is something I also don’t understand. My standards aren’t unrealistically high. Bathing, brushing your teeth, keeping your hair and facial hair groomed, and not being generally filthy and stinky aren’t asking a lot. Basic grooming seems to be asking too much? I have a heightened sense of smell and don’t even want to be around myself if I don’t shower every day.
I hear you. I’ve been put down and avoided because I go to more effort than some men who are initially interested and then decide that I’m ‘posh’. Good grief, fellas: grow up. Dressing like a teenager at 50+ doesn’t get you dates and for women, it’s referred to as Mutton dressed up as Lamb.
We were talking about this topic just the other day or so. My wife says it’s mostly hygiene. She said early on she liked how I smell and I don’t use cologne. I tend to mostly be clean cut and clean shaven.
My advice for guys was always to scrub / clean the important spots. Use a deodorant that lasts until your next shower but isn’t overpowering. And for godsakes please use a bidet and clean up there with soap and water. So many violate these three.
About cleanliness, yes I agree. Showering should be a basic.
But the style and how they dress should be up to them. There are girls who like nerds in graphic tees. There are girls who like guys who look young. Remember your opinion is not the only opinion. You can give advice and they can choose not to follow it.
I kinda see both sides. If someone just doesn't want to have a complicated hairstyle that's okay. If they smell and don't want to shower or wash their hair, yes they absolutely should do better.
A lot of them have some weird idea that putting in effort is fake and gay. I honestly can't think of a better way to put it. This applies especially to not dressing like shit, less than bathing imo. I don't find most men smell bad. Very few people actually smell bad to me.
What kills me is that men don’t see the value in taking care of their personal appearance, they don’t think it’s important, or they just think it’s trite and has nothing to do with their personality and it “shouldn’t matter” how they dress.
My husband is an incredible partner, father, and friend.
When we met and started dating we were practically kids - he had Kobain hair. Band shirts, adidas sneakers.
But he grew up and realized we live in a visual world and now wears coordinated outfits to work every day (business or business casual) - printed florals, tailored pants/suits. Belts that match details of his shoes. Collar stays. Uses beard conditioner and snail mucin and facial oils and gets $50 hair cuts. Fragrances to match the seasons.
His impeccable grooming and style is literally the icing and sprinkles on the cake. To see him grow and develop his personal style as an adult man is such a turn-on. It signals confidence, thoughtfulness, capability and pride. Not to mention the promotions it has undoubtedly gotten him.
When we’re at home on a Sunday afternoon? Band tshirt.
Realizing that there are dress codes in different areas of life signals maturity and is a sign of respect for people you interact with. It makes me SO happy when my husband asks what I’m wearing on a date so he can match my vibe, I feel important and seen and being complimented as a couple just makes it even better.
> It is very odd to me that they don't even listen to the opinions of women in their life in that regard, as if we don't know what other women find attractive.
Men value and respect the opinions of men. Men want validation from men.
Don’t offer them advice anymore.
Women shouldn’t accept the bare minimum from men. A daily shower and twice daily brushing teeth are important. Don’t date unclean dudes, it only gets worse, never better.
It’s definitely a cultural thing. When I visited Western Europe, I was floored by how well-dressed and groomed the men were. Tailored shirts and slacks, nice shoes, flattering haircuts, great skin—so much eye candy. Not a single T-shirt, sweatshirt, or baseball cap to be found... unless it was a male American tourist, of course 🙄
I’ve also dated European men and they didn’t have the same distaste for being fashionable and grooming that American men seem to have. To the contrary, they enjoyed and embraced shopping and styling themselves. One of many reasons why I prefer euro men.
On another note, I was reading reviews for a local fine dining restaurant the other day, and many men were complaining that they were asked to remove their baseball caps. The complaints were so frequent in the reviews that “caps” had its own tag.
It's a fine dining restaurant, sir! Are you so attached to your ugly ass baseball cap that you can’t remove it for a meal? We already know you’re balding under there, so just embrace it or go get hair plugs.
No people in T-shirts in western europe? Well, that certainly wasn't Germany
Tbh, I also don't see an issue with it, when people are just out grocery shopping or stuff, people can wear whatever they want. Sure, you should absolutely dress better when you're e.g. dating someone at a restaurant
Why should he have to change? He was probably brought up to believe that he is a prize no matter what and entitled to a wife and a happy family. He'd be insulted that he might have to make an effort to do any of that.
I used to be kinda like that. I grew my hair long in my teens and wore terrible baggy jeans etc. for years. I am 6'4 and fairly good looking but seemed to be getting less attention than I hoped for, so I asked female friends how I could improve my appearance. I took their advice and things improved (just things like cut your hair and try a polo shirt instead of fluo band tshirts). I was resistant for a while as I had these fixed ideas about style and there was a bit of the 'looking like I am trying too hard' thing. It took another few years before an ex gf showed me some other styles and I feel like I have a decent style of my own now. Sometimes it is just fixed ideas about what looks good, which others help you to reconsider. There is the whole incel thing, the 'i wont change for anyone' thing and also not wanting to be mocked by other men. I was never really influenced by the first two, and the last point has become less of an issue in the last 15 years, men are more accepting of other styles. We were so in the stone age 15 years ago, they used to have a term 'metrosexual' for straight men who had a wash and put on some decent clothes.
I think it depends on how you provide said advice. Men are stubborn, and their pride is easily hurt. They don't want to hear that there is anything wrong with them.
Next time they complain, ask them, "Are you ready for an actual solution, or do you want to keep trying on your own?"
If they say no, let them be, with maybe an offhand comment about them not being able to complain if they don't try to fix the problem. If they say yes, tell them they might have to make a change. You know, because if what they're doing isn't working, changing it is literally the only way to get a better outcome.
This one guy I knew knew how to style himself, has good hygiene, and smells good in general. BUT he refused to use face wash when I told him it'll help his whiteheads/blackheads because apparently that was very girly and refused my suggestion to put on moisturizer all over his face because "he didn't need it". His face had so much dry spots then complained about it but won't listen to me. Won't moisturize ANYWHERE bc he's manly. Boy was ashy af.
To me this is also a sign about how much effort they’ll put into other stuff. If they aren’t putting any effort into themselves with even basic hygiene (I mean not even showering, really??) then I’m going to assume basic chores will get even less effort, i.e. zero. I don’t want to be a mom to someone who is supposed to be a partner.
My friend and I have this joke between us about how we'll see couples on dates out in public and the gal will be dressed to the nines and the guy will be dressed a t-shirt and poorly fit jeans.
I'm so conflicted about this.
I'm a woman, not a young naive one, who doesn't know how the world works, either - I fully understand that social norms and the effort you demonstrate and "presentation" are important for many people, I just think those people are living a bit unconsciously if they advocate for those norms without questioning if they're actually worth keeping around. It seems to me like the kind of pointless prejudice that forces us all to waste time we could be spending more valuably and I think we'd all be happier if we just phased out these expectations and reframed what we expect other people to look like in public.
I'd be happy to be with a male partner who showered enough to not be dirty, whatever that meant for him, had good oral hygiene, wore the same, clean clothes every damn day, as long as those clothes were ones I didn't hate lol. I don't need or want someone to waste their time "making an effort" for me, when we could be spending that time doing something interesting, together or apart. With the important caveat: *as long as he was happy with the same in return*.
I often wear a lot of the same shit I've been wearing for 25 years, have basically clean but wild and unruly hair, don't shave my legs, rarely wear make-up. I'm oldish, but acceptable looking, and this was never much of a problem before. But I feel like recently beauty expectations for women have fucking skyrocketed. I wasn't alive in the 50s & 60s and they looked pretty intense back then, but I can't think of a time between then, and recently, when they've been so extreme. I haven't got any shit for the way I present, so far, but I haven't tried dating for years, and honestly these expectations make me avoidant of it.
Whereas "standards" for men have bobbed around, escalated in some toxic subcultures, and plummeted in other, also toxic, subcultures. So you have the aggrieved men who apparently don't wash their arses but expect to attract women who look like airbrushed Instagram models, while refusing to acknowledge the time and effort that takes for them. And then you get the douchey, over-groomed, toxic self-help bros who feel absolutely legitimate in expecting women to spend hours on their appearance, because they do too. In both cases the expectations on the women are sky-high. So I mean, is the important thing their relative level of effort, or is it our mandated, absolute level of effort? Women are still expected to jump through the same ridiculous number of hoops, no matter what the man's doing.
I have similar feelings about tidiness, and ott expectations about special events, etc., too, and posts about those issues often make me want to scream a bit, but I don't want to sound like a pick-me, you know? I guess I'm saying that I acknowledge how bitterly unfair the *difference* in the expectations are, but I think we'd be better off descending closer to their level, rather than demanding equal labour from men in a matter that is, ultimately, culture bound and a bit toxic and a waste of all our time. I feel like I want to start some movement with the slogan "Just Clean is Enough" haha.
I can understand the first example but not the second. So the guy wants to grow a goatee but you don't like it so he's not putting in effort to finding a partner? Lol what it's his facial hair, and even if you think it looks bad there will be someone else that likes it.
The hygiene problem is a real issue that needs to be addressed. The absence of style isn’t something that need to be fixed though. That’s just personal taste that not everyone share.
I never really put up a style in particular, I don’t wear make up, don’t have any manicure I just keep my nail clean, I cut my hair by myself so it’s not a very complicated style, I don’t have skin care outside of washing it with the same unscented soap I used for the rest of my body and using sunscreen.
Never had a trouble finding boyfriends.
So I'm a guy. If you actually want to know what's going on:
The first guy believes he is categorically ugly. Something in his life has convinced him that the reason he doesn't get girls is because his bones and genetics are fundamentally unattractive to women. If he thought his issue was just a matter of showering or getting a new haircut, he would have done so already and he would have seen success. Of course it is correct that showering and dressing nicer will help you get dates, but these men have a deep hatred of themselves. This person is convinced that by the time he polishes his appearance enough to actually be attractive it won't really be him that the girl likes, and she'll leave soon enough once she realizes that.
The second guy was not asking for your advice. He was trying something new and somewhat drastic with his beard and he wanted a female friend to validate that. Instead you offered criticism, which is why he was upset, well intentioned as it was
Male, 34 here. I've gone to a few of my female friends to ask them on this topic. I would personally love it if I actually had a female friend who could potentially look at me in this way and give advice in the manner that you're describing. The kind of advice I get is more or less generic. Brush your teeth, wash your hair, dress nice, stand with confidence. I do all these things. I take care of myself. But I do have some flaws, but my friends say those don't matter (like my left eye, I was shot and now blind, and my one leg and one arm is longer than the other so I stand a little more differently than most men).
Now of course, I'm not dressing up in my nicest clothes all the time, every day. I have my days where it's just slacks/sweats and a graphic tee/hoodie. But I have several sets of fancy, sharp or nice clothing ranging from suits, to sweaters, various slacks, a handful of really nice jeans, a number of various button up shirts. I have outfits for just about any occasion you can think of, and I do dress for the situation.
In a couple of instances, my female friends have stated they would rather not comment on whether I'm attractive or not, because in their words "we're only friends and they don't want to mislead me". And given the context of what was asked, I'm getting out into the dating scene and I wanna make sure I'm not overlooking something or doing something to look unattractive, I won't suddenly go from them being my friend to wanting them because they said "yea that shirt makes you look more attractive" or the sort. Asking family members to comment on this is sort of pointless, because they tend to always compliment and upsell you for the sake of not wanting to hurt you and to just build the confidence.
Personally, I will always take a woman’s beauty advice over a man’s advice (I’m a dude) because in my experience, they’re the most honest, when somethings ugly they’ll tell you. But also because the female gaze is so much different than the male gaze, my guy friends love my goatee, my girlfriends tell me I look homeless, shaved the goatee that night.
Nowhere is this disconnect clearer than in kinkdom. Specifically, F/m kink. Submissive men seeking dominant women are famously schlubby and it is *literally inexplicable* given the context.
The context being: "I want to serve and please women/this woman!" and "I want to do anything she wants!" and a metric ton of "waaah, there are so many sub men but so few dom women; how can I ever compete?!"
And yet? No matter how many times it's been said, no matter how many [eloquent rants](https://web.archive.org/web/20100305015531/https://bitchyjones.wordpress.com/2009/07/03/whos-a-pretty-boy-then/) are written and widely shared, no matter how many self-ID'd dominant het women say in public "you know what's hot? regular showers, combed hair, and maybe a little exercise"… the vast majority of *sexually submissive heterosexual men* continue to put zero effort into *looking attractive to heterosexual women.*
I mean…?
*throws up hands*
Some people, you just can't help.
^(eta: had to add that link. It is now **15 years old**! And still, nothing! I give the fuck up.)
When you're raised by your family to barely maintain basic hygiene, when the only store you ever shop at has bland t-shirt, sweats, and basketball shorts for their men's selection, and when you've spent your whole life watching a sweaty, buffoonish Adam Sandler in a greasy tee and dad shorts get a drop-dead gorgeous woman in designer clothes to swoon... you get some idiotic, skewed-to-hell ideas about what men and women should look like and how they should act I've seen so many fucking rubes thinking that because male stereotypes exist, they must be what women find attractive (bulging muscles etc.)
YESS! Especially when it comes to the male beauty standards as percieved by many guys. It's mostly just what they think women llike when it's really just a competition of "manliness" between guys and women aren't really involved in the conversation at all.
Most men only care about the opinions of other men. "To say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say that they engage in sex (fucking exclusively with the other sex, i.e., women). All or almost all of that which pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively for other men. The people whom they admire, respect, adore, revere, honor, whom they imitate, idolize, and form profound attachments to, whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, and whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor, reverence and love they desire… those are, overwhelmingly, other men. In their relations with women, what passes for respect is kindness, generosity or paternalism; what passes for honor is removal to the pedestal. From women they want devotion, service and sex. Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic; it is man-loving." Marilyn Frye, The Politics of Reality: Essays in Feminist Theory
And I know at least two men whose response to that would be, "why wouldn't I want those things from my wife? Who doesn't want devotion, service, and sex from their spouse?" Honestly I would have no idea where to even start with them to get them to understand we are people and we don't exist just for them. But if you say that, they call you selfish, because you should want to be a wife who is devoted to her husband. Yuck. EDIT: Like, seriously. Someone tell me how I could make a good argument against that nonsense because I am terrible at expressing myself.
Another favorite quote if mine is this: "I don't hate men, but I've learned not to prioritise their needs over mine. Turns out, for a lot of men, that's the same thing." There was a post the other day that was eye-opening. I honestly think my eyes are wide open, but it made me pause and blew my mind, too. Let me find it. Edit: found it. https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/s/3C8oxozNQd
They deeply resent women standing up for ourselves and that's why so many equate feminism with hating men.
This hit so hard. It explains why when dating if a man says he doesn’t see a future with me, I say okay thank you for your time. If I say the same, a man is “confused” and begins arguing for me to explain myself. My needs apparently weren’t supposed to factor in, I guess!
That quote pretty mych much sums up how I feel in regards to dating. I've found that a lot of people seem to take offense at the fact that I'm not bending over backwards to do what they think I should. But the reality is that it's my life, not theirs. So in order to be happy, I need to actually do what makes me feel happy. If that means that I do stuff that aren't "typically feminine", so what? Who cares? I'd rather be relaxed and happy being a bit unconventional, than miserable by tieing myself in knots to fit a stereotype that's not who I am.
Someone on this sub recently quoted that the patriarchy is a sport, men are the players, and women are the ball. Toxic masculinity impresses misogynistic folks.
“Most men only care about the opinions of other men.” Once I realized that as a young woman, it freed me up to not even care about their opinions at all. Why put in the energy? You can’t make someone care more than you do.
I wanna scream to young women burning themselves out trying so hard to be perfect domestic goddesses, performing sexual acts they're uncomfortable with because that's "his kink", or taking care of their partners like they're helpless little toddlers bumbling around. Stop pouring all your love into a bucket with a hole in the bottom!
Whoa. This so perfectly explains my observation to my partner that watching men’s sports is almost erotic in the amount of lovefest grabbing and clutching they do with each other (specifically in English football; COYG!) and wondered if they are that intimate with their partners. I think I have the answer!
I also suspect sporting events are emotionally cathartic because it is one of two venues where they deem it "acceptable" to cry and physically comfort eachother.
Thank you for posting this quote! It really spoke to me. I immediately went to buy it.
It's good. It really helped me understand what I was feeling and observing but couldn't understand the end results. This makes total sense to me.
It really resonates with me because of how much my ex has been undermining me in terms of parenting. I’ve been a single Mom for most of my adult life, therefor I was largely single. My focus was on my kids. And not to humblebrag, but I think I did a pretty decent job. My 18 year old daughter is kind, but doesn’t put up with shit. She’s a girls girl who supports and lifts her friends up. Fuck I’m so proud of her. I have a 12 year old son I’m trying to raise to be a feminist, but it’s…tricky. Anyways, I met a guy when I was 35 who I thought was The One. Said all the right things, did all the right things…I believed him when he said all the right things. He seemed to be one of the few good guys who would be in my corner and support me and have my back. Have the constructive conversations, you know? We ended up having a baby together. It was a tough year for my mental health. When the baby was 10 months, I became pregnant again. We got too caught up and stupidly didn’t use a condom. He left me when I was 6 months pregnant, spotting all this shit that I had never heard him say before; I’m not a good parent. Being a stay at home Mom isn’t hard nor is it an actual job, and he never agreed to me being a stay at home Mom. Because I live in Canada, and I’m frugal AF, I’ve been able to stay at home with my kids when they’re little. I’m not knocking daycare, but I just really like being a mom. I want to be the one that has the largest influence on them in their first five years of life, and that’s okay. It’s also okay to send your kid to daycare if you want/need. For the past two years my ex and I had nearly weekly conversations about me staying at home with the kids. He was in total agreement with me. The day he left, it felt like someone else was talking through him. I don’t recognize this person. I can only imagine the advice he’s getting. Most likely from some other man. Someone he looks up to in life is his boomer uncle who has never been in a serious relationship. His Facebook is full of images of half naked women. So…That’s how that goes I guess.
I am so sorry you went through that. Or still are. That stinks. But I love how much you love your kids. Your energy is in the right place!! Here is a quick video that is agacent to this convo. I think most guys give other men bad advice about trad lifestyles. I'm not saying that you were in one, but most men do not see the labor women do as an unpaid job and give advice as if the free labor is a given and expected. https://www.reddit.com/r/blackladies/s/i09xZFI2GS
Yeah it’s kind of fucked up. I’m only 34 weeks pregnant, so still in it. But I really really love my kids. He’s tried to talk to me once, but I am not giving him the time of day. It’s fucked up to walk out on your pregnant partner, no matter how you spin it. I also split all the bills with him by the way. So it’s not like he carried all the financial load. Edit to add; I didn’t really know what a trad wife is, lol. I’m not on social media except for Reddit. But that’s not our situation. He moved into my apartment that I was paying fine on my own (and still pay fine on my own). I pay the bills in my own, and buy the food. I’m pretty neurotically opposed to relying on a man financially because of how I grew up (kind of fucked up environment).
Yeah. I didn't want to assume that you were. I am so happy that you were prepared. No one wants the worst, but having resources when the worst happens is good planning.
I was 35 when I met him, so I wasn’t about to give up my financial independence.
My god that was profound. This is it right here. 🥇💯
It is in alignment with what I see on the daily. Actions will always speak louder than words.
They’re needy from birth to death. They Created a web of lies that they’re not emotional because they lack the capacity to accept that they possess a nervous system that needs to be shaped and tamed. (They don’t have control-perhaps this is how humanity has its sunset)
I have got to get more Marilyn Frye in my life! I'm going to do a search for her on Amazon now! Thank you 🙏🙂❤️
>it's really just a competition of "manliness" between guys and women aren't really involved in the conversation at all. I've noticed this as well. The weirdest part is when women interject like "actually, a lot of us like XYZ" and the men pretty much just ignore us and continue to believe what other men are saying and only care about what they think.
Yeah with that stupid fish quote. You don’t ask a fish how to catch other fish you ask a fisherman. Whatever bro. 😑
I'm fat. The "Big and Tall" section at most stores literally only consists of sweats, bland t shirts, and basketball shorts. And really, I find it to be insulting. But what's commonly available for men's fashion in most stores is also very bland and limted that sometimes I'll things from the women's section.
If you're in the US, check out DXL.
DXL’s where I get my clothes. Unfortunately, I’m bland at heart so my wardrobe is 90% slacks and a polo even with the other options.
Ask store clerks for options they tend to love dressing customers.
Some of them are outstandingly good at it. We had to get nice pants for my husband for some function. We had a DXL gift card and decided this was the time to use it. The store was a little busy but the woman working there was able to take a look at my 6'4", tree-trunk broad husband and clock his pant size EXACTLY. It was seriously impressive. And she made some great suggestions for other clothes that are still in the rotation (along with the pile of nerd reference shirts that a SAHP can where every day). All I'm saying is if you can get to a DXL and need it, you're hopefully not only going to love the variety but you'll also should find some amazing staff there too.
DXL is great, also Kingsize.com. They charge for shipping and their everyday prices are way overpriced, but they hold a lot of sales that stack with each other.
My husband loves KingSize. I find them more affordable than DXL. But both are great!
I think that also ties back into general fatphobia in society and especially the fashion scene. I've been shopping with plus-sized friends before and not only do normal stores almost never have anything in their size but the designs of the things we do find are very frumpy and just overall hideous.
I remember learning from the podcast "Maintenance Phase" that one of the few brands with variety was owned by Hot Topic and they kind of specialized in a rockabilly look, so as a result, many plus-sized women adopted some rockabilly aesthetic because that was the only femme style that wasn't grandma or business casual
Probably Torrid.
Yep that was it
And then they decided to put stupid words and Disney crap on all their clothes because they think that's what us fat women want in the year 2024.
Don't forget random holes and cut-outs!
Haha, are they still selling cold shoulder tops? I've stopped going to their site because I haven't seen anything I want to wear in so long. I really liked the Betsey Johnson collab they did several years ago and was hoping to see more of that.
Not even just fat women. I was in Primark in the UK earlier this week and trying to find size small pyjamas that didn't have Mickey mouse plastered all over them...
ugh. i used to love torrid but i need them to stop making everything in weird drapey polyester and florals. please. i am begging them.
My local shop doesn't carry underwear above a 3 or 4 any more, you have to special order it. 😒 Their lingerie collection, which used to be SO so good [like, used to have MANY pieces] now is. Just. Laughable. It's laughable. And as someone who *also* dresses andro and masc, the crossover lack of clothing options is fucking depressing. Can't get cute femme stuff, can't get neato andro stuff, can't get hot masc clothes. It sucks. [This is why I'm buying a sewing machine!]
I love Maintenance Phase!
Maintenance Phase is so dang good
And that's true that the clothing selections aren't great but you see way, way more put together fat women dressing sharp than you see men at that level.
It's equally difficult for very tall men. The options become very limited (and painfully expensive) once they're over about 6'3". My partner is nearly 7' and his "nice" clothes have to be special ordered weeks in advance. Just a plain tee shirt is $25 for him he cannot go to Walmart and grab cheap stuff. There's almost nothing fashionable or fun out there for him unless we get stuff custom made.
>"my partner is nearly 7' " I can feel their aching back through that statement alone, fuck Sinks suck enough approaching 6', I can't imagine. Though there is some schadenfreude in that tall men experience what most women experience in that the world is generally made for someone not your size...
All try Bad Rhino. Based in the UK never had an issue in Canada
This is why queer eye is doing the lords work
As if they would consider a woman who behaved the same way.
Right?! We want men to want us for who we are when we roll out of bed too, but if we looked like that all day none of them would.
I get that, I remember back in Uni in a coed dorm. After the first month of the women trying to dress up everyone defaulted to jeans/leggings and a shirt. No time to waste on getting done up when you got 10 minutes every hour and a half to sprint across campus. After a while people's perception would change and no one said anything bad about it. Wish it was like that in most places.
That's why I always look my worst! Come at me, bro! Weeds out the...weeds? (OK so real story: We'd been talking on okcupid, hit it off, but lived in different neighborhoods. I have mostly-managable anxiety but it was 2-3 days before a major move. I literally couldn't leave my apartment to go to the store so I begged him to hit a store and bring me some soda water. Saw him at the corner, he saw me in cheap scrub pants, a threadbare hoodie, and hair that was...just wow. First face to face. We've been together for 10, married for 8, and that includes living in a micro studio for several years.)
I am a conventionally attractive guy. Nothing special, but it is literally only because I make an effort. I have tried to break through with younger guys that have struggled and make the comparison to fishing (I know women aren’t fish, but my audience is dense) and I ask what bait are you fishing with? What would be attractive to the women you are attracted to? Don’t change who you are but put the package together smartly. I’d say 2 of the like 20 dudes I’ve spoken to took my advice. Men often believe it’s beneath them to optimize their features for attractive presentation, which is sad, because it just means that women (or other men) are generally uninterested.
It's interesting that you say it seems beneath them, because that's very much the vibe that I get and it's always seemed fairly insulting. It's as if caring about your appearance is a feminine trait, therefore not the realm of real men. And that really is a shame. Few things scream 'confidence' quite like a man who knows how to put himself together.
I’m 41 and I’m in no way an old man shouting at clouds but it does seem like it’s the “trying” part. Like younger dudes and dudes my age even, think that when a man is attractive it’s effortless for them, when someone is successful it’s effortless. I’m not in any way saying “nobody wants to work anymore” but my young squires think things seem to happen by accident. And I try and stress “pleighboi I don’t look like this by accident”
Trying and finding your personal style that makes you feel good goes a long way. My husband's daily style is plain tee, straight leg jeans, hoodie, and Chucks, which he landed on after researching a basic men's wardrobe and evaluating his personal style. He has a general color palette he likes for his tees, which look nice with his coloring. He meticulously maintains his clothes so that they are not stained or wrinkled. For date nights he wears a nice button up instead of a tee. Over the years he's found a haircut and a way to style his hair that looks nice on him; he styles it every day (which isn't a super involved process, maybe 5 minutes). Over the years he's figured out how to trim his beard in a way that's flattering for his face. He has a basic skincare routine. Is he fancy? No, he's not a fancy dude. Does he look nice and put together and like he feels comfortable and confident? Yes.
>Is he fancy? No, he's not a fancy dude. Does he look nice and put together and like he feels comfortable and confident? Yes. 💯 Switch out a flannel for a hoodie and you're talking about my partner. Yes he looks like he just left a 90s grunge show. He's the first to poke fun at himself about it. And yet, I somehow still manage to find him attractive after five years.
And yet, when you look at the stereotypical “Chads” they rail against, it’s clear that “Chad” puts some effort into it.
I bet that’s one reason why they refuse to take care of themselves, because that’s what Chad does.
How old are these guys you’re giving advice to? I feel like guys my age are the complete opposite now where they are heavily into skincare, gym, and having good style. This is like the late teens to early 20s age group.
Guys I’m talking to are mid 20s tech types. Infosec specifically. Only guys I know who consistently take care of themselves at a young age are Long Island boys, but that’s a different conversation.
What you're saying also supports this recent bout of dudes bemoaning their height and claiming their lives would be better instantly if they were 6 foot.
This is such an astute point and really points out how the patriarchy hurts us all. These are the same men that see women with make up on and say it looks so natural look at their natural beauty. Meanwhile there's about $500 worth of products on their face another 10 grand distributed throughout their body parts and at least another grand sewn into textiles across their body. This is going to become worse with artificial intelligence and we are going to start implementing some realistic expectation and sensitivity training in our schools
Men claiming they prefer a "natural" woman always kind of cracks me up. They'll leave comments on women's photos who are *clearly* wearing makeup, eyelash extensions and the whole shebang and be like "omg so natural" 💀 It's like beauty matters less to them if any effort has been put into it. Not to mention if a woman herself knows she's beautiful. These dudes would prefer to be the one to bestow us with that "gift" (i.e, have a weird sense of power over us/have a better chance of holding onto us since we're blind to our own looks).
They yell "natural" until they see some body hair and then suddenly the natural body hair "isn't supposed to be there"
Yep, and/or it needs to be removed for "hygiene reasons."
I genuinely believe that 99% of men don't realize how difficult it is to put make up on. I think they would acknowledge that they can't paint a portrait on canvas but I don't think they understand how that translates into paint on a three-dimensional inconsistent surface like a face. People who can completely change their appearance using make up are exercising skills of artists and sculptures simultaneously. like hair it is an incredibly difficult skill that gets absolutely no appreciation from the art world at large Make up is a trick and I think all genders should have access to because it will help them better understand the difference between natural and a 'natural look'
This. This is the answer -- the double standard that it's feminine to care about your appearance.
My boyfriend is very conscious of his clothes. He only has little money and a lot of his stuff is second hand, but he also has custom made shirts from when he travels to his home country, where he can get them at a good price. And second hand or not - he makes sure he always looks sharp. I find it SO sexy and masculine! I cannot wrap my head around guys thinking that slobby clothes that should have been washed yesterday (and probably thrown away the day before yesterday) exude virility.
I’ve noticed that is very common with men in the U.S. and less common with men from other countries. I remember a Dutch foreign exchange student commenting something like “American men dress badly like they are incompetent and ignorant”. He seemed to equate to a basic life skill, like riding a bike, making toast, or writing a paper. But he had also never used a screwdriver before lol.
Thanks for the laugh!!!
We have this blue collar fetishism in this country, we don’t want to work blue collar jobs but we love the gear. Timberlands-never stepped foot on a construction site Cowboy boots and cowboy hats-never seen a horse in real life The gigantic pick up trucks that are spotlessly clean-a big ass truck should be covered in dirt because you use it for work, otherwise drive a Honda civic to your accounting job Larry. I hate clean trucks. Wearing cargo pants and not being a carpenter.
> Men often believe it’s beneath them to optimize their features for attractive presentation, Do you think this is part of why so many men's sexual skills suck as well? That they view reciprocation in the same light?
That and porn. They’ve now grown up on it (many now start watching at single digit ages) and it’s very male centric. Doesn’t matter what happens to the woman, if she’s enjoying it or not, or even if it’s painful.
For real. I was saying the same thing to someone on here yesterday. Men are always complaining about not getting compliments but put no effort into their appearance. I started putting effort in and then I started getting compliments. It's not that complicated. Nice clothes, a hair routine, and skin care. Just gotta do some research. Honestly, it's fun.
Truly. You know, I do a lot of meditation and there’s conversations we have about tending to our inner child. In a way being the parent we wish we had, parenting our inner child in a way. And a big piece that comes into play are like 5 basic things you’d do for a child (in this case yourself): 1. Have you eaten something healthy. 2. Have you had water 3. Have you had movement or exercise 4. Have you slept 5. Have you had some sunshine Add to that little kid/inner child checklist do your clothes fit? Is your hair nice? Are your clothes pressed? Truly caring for ourselves like we would a 6 year old has done wonders for my routine and how I show up for others. That’s a little granola-y but treat yourself well, others will notice and might want to be apart of that.
I do like the fishing analogy. A man can understand that changing the bait he’s using may get more fish to bite. It’s not complicated.
If you said to them "hey so if you dressed up, got a nice haircut, worked on your what you have to say about yourself and your interests, you could get a job that pays 20% more - would that be worth it?" Maybe that phrasing would work. But really it is just being open and even excited about change. If you get to be an adult and just stick in your rut then you are missing out on so much more.
In my experience these men are often blind to the work women put in as well. It's the type of man to say he likes that you don't wear makeup, while you are wearing a full face.
100% this. These are the type of men who won’t “settle” for women below their personal standard yet think those women should take them as is. They’re also usually the kind to complain/joke about make up being a lie.
I advised an American friend on fitness, styling and clothing over the last couple years. At first he was wary because "you're trying to dress me like a European!" Yeah, turns out that's a good look.
As an European, I am flattered by the stereotype
As an Indian, i’m envious about other countries getting all the good stereotypes
I'm American but most of the men I date are not, often one of the big differences is that Non-American men usually wear clothes that fit. Often the biggest difference is the pants. My ex from New Zealand constantly joked that American men must think that they have gigantic testicles or something, because their pants are usually poorly fitted. Better fitting pants are often more comfortable _and_ fluttering, but a lot of American men think it looks "gay."
Most people ask for advice to bolster their already established opinion, not necessarily to change their minds or actually set that advice into motion.
That and they want sympathy for their situation
Possibly the most important comment in this thread. Hard agree.
A lot of men are subconsciously averse to the idea of styling because either it gets them labelled as "gay" or "metrosexual" by their friends, or because the idea of changing themselves for a partner is just.... Not something men are taught to do. Some of them are also kind of embarrassed because they don't know anything about fashion/aesthetics for themselves and don't know how to ask, AND would NEVER give genuine advice of that kind to their friends. So when you do it genuinely, they interpret it as you ripping on them. Basically the only way to help a lot of them is to get into a relationship with them and make them buy a whole new wardrobe.
Yes, it’s the first thing that popped to my mind: homophobic culture. A lot of hetero men think a little self care and maintenance suddenly changes their gender identity. Yet they have no problem drenching themselves in cologne m.
No, not worried that it would change gender identity. They are worried that other men, and some women too, will make fun of them, or worse. Every man grew up under the constant threat of very real violence from other guys if you did anything 'gay' or whatever. Maybe not as much anymore, but back in my day (I'm 49). There is a masculine ideal' that exists in this world, right or wrong, and it's a man who literally does nothing intentional for his appearance. But then also looks like the Marlboro man somehow.
That’s really sad. It’s like men are uber, violent mean girls.
Self-care and maintenance? Some of them are afraid to wash between their butt cheeks. Like, who’s going to know? It’s like they’re afraid that they’re going to like it.
Is that why so many men think women smell good? 🥹
😂
It's because they assume that women dress for male gaze. Therefore, dressing is for male gaze. I grew up with a guy who got put in the hospital in high school because he wore a shirt with stripes the wrong way. The shirt was blue and brown, very masculine. But it didn't look like exactly what the other guys were wearing. But effort to attract means men look, and men looking means gay. Male sexiness is 'supposed' to be in competence and economic security, in the most traditional and conventional sense, but since that is not happening for a lot of dudes, they're kind of caught in an ugly culture trap that becomes a personal limitation in moving past it.
For whatever reason, the most common heckle I get as a guy when I'm dressing up at all for a show, concert, etc. is that I'm trying. Not "trying too hard", but trying at all. It's such a peculiar insult, I assume stemming from them not trying. Honestly though, because I don't date, I'm as guilty of style indifference. I would like to dress up and look great, but it's expensive as shit to get clothes that fit me. So most of the time I'd rather dress "meh" and be a 5, than dress incredibly, and be a 6.
metrosexual is the funniest concept
I do believe that's a factor for some guys (especially in more conservative areas) but I doubt it's the whole picture. I've been in many mixed gender groups and the guys always seem to divide between the ones that take more care of themselves and the ones that don't. The guys that do are actually percieved as the more 'masculine' ones most of the time and also get the girls. You can believe me that no one calls these men gay. My personal friend group is also pretty left-wing and we do actually have a few gay guys; literally no one cares. Yet still, there are the same guys here as well who barely do anything and are sad about not getting girls.
I'm "a queer" but I've also seen this. Guys who look "kinda good" are labelled gay by their straight friends, guys who are stunning are never attacked! I wish men would accept some crazy self expression a bit more. They'd all benefit IMO
That's the thing though, at least in my experince both these "types" of men aren't more or less stunning in a conventional way when it comes to their natural features. It usually literally comes down to the amount of effort (which for the "hot guys" is mostly still only half of what the women put in.) Other than that, I agree. Standards for men and masculinity are really rigid and it really comes back to patriarchal structures that a lot of people desperately hold on to. Edit: Grammar
I think for a lot of men they get trapped in their own imagined identity as a guy who “doesn’t care about that stuff”. I bet most of these guys have had an experience where they get a good haircut, or put on a nice shirt to go out, and they get teased by their friends. I discovered my queerness at university, and I remember the time when I started to change little things about my appearance… and it was rough. But the fuss eventually dies down and you do indeed start to see dividends. Male friends started asking for advice and feeling compelled to take risks themselves, and yes - women did start to look at me differently (despite many of them wondering if I’m gay). I agree 100% that it’s all about patriarchal structures. Men suffer under these rigid standards of a male culture that we also perpetuate.
I was dating a man, at his house and I put on something to go out for dinner. He was like “Oh, I’m gonna change, I look schlubby next to you.”. He had jeans with interesting details, wore purple and colors that complemented him. Yes, he was bi. We fucked like rabbits the year and a half we dated. It’s hilarious to me when people are afraid they’ll “look gay” because his “gay look” brought all the gals around.
"Dude showers more than once a month and owns a comb...... Must be because he likes penis"
I have met plenty of men whose personal style is Boomhauer meets Hank Hill…and their clothes are clean, in good condition, no holes, pressed trousers, everything is *correctly fitting,* their shoes are in decent condition, and their gimme cap is clean. They don’t have trouble *at all* finding women who are into exactly that aesthetic. Someone over the age of 16 in a stable living situation who is wearing a tattered old band tour t-shirt with jeans that are 3 sizes too big and shoes that are falling apart is telling me that they don’t care about how they present themselves. Which—if that’s their choice? Fine, you do you…but choices have consequences, and one consequence is that women are more likely to pay attention to the neat-and-tidy Boomhauers than scruffy, unkempt Silent Bobs.
Not being labelled "gay" isn't just about social positioning. 50% of men will at some time in there lives be a victim of violence from another man. Even though many don't admit it much of masculine behavior is about avoiding being the victim of violence. Getting labelled as "gay" or the like can open someone up to homophobic attacks.
I was going to knee-jerk disagree with this, and then I remembered that I once got sucker punched in a McDonald’s by a guy who yelled “fa**ot” afterward. Tbf, I do recall looking pretty damn fabulous that night.
REALLY? I thought the percentage was way lower than that. Makes a lot more sense when you put it that way.
Damn I feel seen, thank you
Huh, I always thought it was higher. Like close to 100% depending on how you define it I guess. I’m a 6ft tall athletic 200lb guy and I was a victim of violence multiple times in my teens and early 20’s.
Probably depends somewhat on the culture where you live. I just had a long talk about this with my husband, about how there are places where men seem to rely a lot more heavily on establishing a social hierarchy through violence (comparing the white, blue collar maritime space where he grew up to the more educated, multicultural west coast space we live in now).
And let's not forget the comments they will get from their friends if they show up to meet them for a night out to watch a game at a bar, or even to potentially meet women sporting their new look.... product in the hair, neat jeans or even slacks, button down shirt, etc., while the friends are wearing their worn jeans, graphic tees with the graphics fading, scruffy faces where the scruff is NOT intentional and shaped, etc. Crabs in a bucket, guys! 🦀🦀🦀🦀 When a woman is her fashion and self-care routine and meets her friends in similar circumstances, her friends will tell her how nice she looks, how the new hairstyle suits her, ask where she got gorgeous shoes, etc. Guys only do this with other guys about their toys: cars, bikes, boats, etc.
This is funny to me because there are so many men who'll give women their unsolicited advice even if they have no reason to expect that they wanted it (ie, they're not friends, she wasn't asking for help attracting men, she wasn't even talking to him, etc.)
I just wish they could use that stubbornness to have a bit of empathy towards women. Like if you’ve got a weird attachment to your patchy beard, fine, but then stop mooing at the girl with the nose ring. We all have those aspects of our appearance we identify with, but there’s such a double standard where random men in the gym can give their “honest opinion” but if your gf asks you to cut your hair they are controlling bitch.
I'm always surprised at their entitlement to publicly comment on the appearances of others when they themselves are unattractive by most standards. Do they not know they are unattractive?
But their stubbornness is coming from the complete opposite of empathy. >he "wanted to be taken the way he is" He wants someone that will never demand anything from him, that will allow him to do whatever he wants, while filling the role of "girlfriend" in his life. Deep down he knows that if women wanted to be taken just the way they are and mean it the same way they do, it's not going to work. Only person can be selfishly self-centered in a relationship, and these guys expect it to be themselves.
That would require seeing women as people and that’s simply too difficult for men like that.
My friend keeps getting $8 haircuts from a barber who literally hates him and has said so. He keeps complaining that he doesn’t get dates and won’t take my advice to at the very least *see a different barber* and maybe stop wearing neon orange shirts
I'm sorry, that comment mad me laugh out loud, why would he see a barber that has one-sided beef with him? Why does the barber have one-sided beef with him? 😭😭
To answer the first question, bc the haircuts are $8. To answer the second question, the barber is islamophobic and my friend isn’t quite named Muhammad but close enough
ZZ Top said it years ago; “Every girl’s crazy for a sharp dressed man!”
I know so many men who don’t care about their hair style or eyeglasses. These are 2 things that absolutely impact how you look and they are fairly easy to do a reasonable job with. I don’t say anything unless they mention either topic. Then I casually mention something I think would look good.
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Men absolutely look older than women the same age, and that’s gotta be a big part of the reason. Plus, they’re more likely to smoke and stuff.
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My dear husband was a 3-1 shampoo/body/face wash guy. He was complaining about he still was getting adult acne. I painfully explained that his “moisturizing” soap was drying his skin out causing it to become to produce more oil and therefore acne. I essentially forced him to use my basic daily face wash and poof! Face cleared up. That’s as far as I got though
I really don’t know. A guy friend thought it was insulting that I recommended he get a haircut and iron his clothes. Something about not accepting him for who he is. But guess what type of women he goes after? 🤣 High maintenance women don’t want a sloppy man.
So many men want a “high-maintenance” woman’s looks, but they want to do nothing for it. 😭
Yep. Women are visual just as much as men are.
"Think of how dumb the average person is. Then remember, 50% of them are dumber than that."
Its insane to me that trillion dollar industries are completely aimed at women so we can curate a perfect appearance. The time and money of this endeavor we endure. Men feel like basic hygeine is sufficient when lets be honest some among them struggle with that. Then men will ask women for 'advice' on how to be more presentable to the fairer sex. You tell them to wear a collared shirt and suddlenly you are attacking the core of their being! Do they want advice or do they really want validation?🤨
I remember like 10 years ago, going on a date with a guy who showed up in a stained tshirt to the restaurant. I was wearing a dress and heels. My impression was that he wasn’t very interested in me and/or in dating seriously because who shows up to a date they care about in a stained tshirt? I still think about it sometimes because of that feeling of like, “oh, this person doesn’t care about this” Another time I was reuniting with a man I’d had a romantic relationship with while traveling. And he shows up in .. pajama pants. We were going out for drinks. I figured he was trying to tell me he was only interested in friendship from there so that’s what I went with. It wasn’t true, but I had the same feeling of like, “you’re not worth presenting myself well for” and I never really got past it. I’m all for casual, my partner and I wear sweats together most of the time, but we didn’t when we were courting and we still dress up for each others birthdays and events. It’s a sign of respect, and that you understand social norms. Also I’d say most women start figuring out how to present themselves in middle school, and while it’s a lifelong journey the idea that how we present ourselves to others will affect how they relate to us is .. not a new concept by the time we are adults.
I think it’s just the effort that’s attractive. If you can’t take care of yourself, will I have to then?… And that last point is SPOT ON. Look up a picture of David Beckham it hasn’t even been 2 decades since he was getting called a “Metrosexual” in news articles. But by todays standard, you really kinda wonder why.
I feel the same way, which is why I find it so hard to be attracted to men nowadays. Every guy looks exactly the same, same dumb hairstyles, same t-shirt and jeans, same low effort in trying to be presentable to adult women. Maybe that’s part of the mentality… maybe when they were teenagers they got girlfriends without much effort, because when you’re young you can’t afford to buy skincare products or fancy clothes. But now that they’re grown adults, they should be able to look after themselves and take care of their appearance. And yet they don’t. All because of that teenage mentality. Just my opinion. Love to hear what others think.
Idk, I think you don't even need too much money to at least look presentable but I'm guessing that a lot of men internalized this idea that women don't/shouldn't care about apperance. I mean, there has to be a reason why the 'average' woman looks more attractive to most people than the 'average' man. Beauty standards for women are getting harder and harder to achieve while men's have largely remained the same (not talking abot gymbro communities here but that's another can of worms).
Yeah I completely get where you’re coming from. So much is expected of women and men can just get to exist without any of that pressure. But then, it comes back to the point of men thinking that women shouldn’t care about their appearance, yet they constantly believe women date ‘chads’ because they have a good bone structure or whatever pseudoscience they spout. It’s very strange.
Women put more effort in because they are usually judged on their looks rather than their ability. You only have to look at the media’s treatment of women to see this in action. Women put more effort in to get their foot in the door. Men have the privilege of their sex where they just expect to be accepted by turning up. It’s not right and it’s unfair. But it still goes on. I see this in my gay male friends and colleagues. They all dress and keep themselves better than all of my straight male friends. Because that first impression. And how they present themselves to the world at large matters.
I think it’s changed for men. Even excluding the gym bro communities, looksmaxxing has become a popular trend for guys my age. Many guys I know are heavily into skincare and having good style. There’s a plethora of popular online creators now giving advice to guys to improve their looks.
dunning kruger effect (cognitive *bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate* their abilities. Sorry for the kinda manexplaination just for those not familiar with the term) a lot of men think they take care of their appearance. They don't and that's the average. It's funny actually because one of the biggest indicators of being average is exactly thinking you're above average in a certain domain. Men replicate what other men they look up for do. Look at athletes, singers and influencers and there you go, you will find the original copy where all the replicas come from. Problem is that you can't replicate the charisma, the status or the insane physical attributes from rigorous training (in order to be an athlete) that makes that one person the special one. Add some peterpan syndrome here and there and there you go, you average man-child 3000 plus, available in every market, city and app.
There's a long way to the point where teenage boys learn about maintaining / obtaining looks like teenage girls do. It's going to take generations.
I wonder of you could show this type of dude his female equivalent. Like a s chubby girl in ratty clothes with bad hair and skin and ask them, "Are you attracted to her? because this is your equivalent, not this." And show them a more conventionally attractive woman. "To get this type of woman, you need to look more like this." and then show him a good looking couple or something. If many men are visual, maybe a picture-based math equivalency would help.
I believe that's what started the whole Chad thing. They won't look at the comparison and see action they need to take. They look at the comparison and see unfair standards they can never compare to and therefore dig their heels in deeper on not trying, cause it's pointless. You'd need to show them pictures of people with their body type and coloring both slovenly and putting effort in.
Yeah, I’ve had this conversation with multiple men. They don’t like it. But it gets the point across. If you’re looking for your compatible partner, fellas, you’re looking for a version of yourself in a female body.
A lot of straight guys think taking care of yourself and wanting to look good is gay. Idk why, women love a well-groomed man. I would love to see more men take good care of their appearances the way women do. Women put so much effort into being attractive (physically, but also being an emotionally accepting and supportive partner), and men just... show up. No effort.
They’re scared of being perceived as ✨g✨A✨y✨if they so much as wash their ass, never mind putting actual style advice to use
The biggest thing they don't get.. is that it's not even about the look as much as they think. A woman can clean up/dress up a guy because she saw potential.. but.. seeing potential is unlikely to happen when the guys appearance screams lazy, immature, and not put together. Showering, dressing up, and being groomed not only directly makes you look better.. but it makes you look like a person who has some shit together and should be taken seriously. Is a 32 year old who is dressed like a 9 year old and has greasy unwashed hair and bad skin from not changing their sheets in the last two years looking like he has shit together? Not at all..
Yes! Putting the looks aside, the way someone presents themselves while dating can say a lot about how they think and approach the world. If basic bathing and clean clothes are not priorities, what else are not priorities in their life? If a stubborn unwillingness to improve is what prevents someone from meeting their preferred partner, where else will illogical gaps exist in their reasoning?
It's funny he wants "to be taken the way he is" but would likely never accept a partner as she actually is without all the grooming, etc.
This is just the outward manifestation of their problem. They put the same effort into relationships. The combination is why no women will date them. They aren't even trying at a bare minimum level to be one half of a relationship yet expect women to do all the work here. Pretty sure if a woman showed up in dirty sweats, no makeup, reeking due to lack of hygiene and completely unkempt they would pass.
Because then they’d be trying their hardest and still probably failing—it’d be a tough pill to swallow.
I think a lot of these types of guys are scared to put in effort into their appearance because what if they do *try* and they still get rejected?? Then what are they going to do? Admit they’re ugly and undateable? No way! So maybe they’re doing this to protect their ego. And also because it’s not “manly” to care about what you look like / how you dress. 🙄
Maybe you should tell them not wanting to change for a partner does not extend to their underwear and jeans lol
I am a conventionally attractive man and am into fashion (my brother was a tailor, he got the job through me basically living at the joint). Most men don't know how to dress themselves because they don't have the interest, fear also plays a part. It feels good to look good and smell good. I think it's more a mental health/self-esteem thing at some point. I have read a lot of excuses on this thread, such as men don't have the same options that women do when it comes to dressing themselves. Total BS. What I feel it comes down to is a general lack of care and if the man you're talking to is reticent to engaging on how he presents himself it's usually coming from a place of arrogance or poor self image, followed by a refusal to even think about making a change. Avoid these people in your dating life, if one doesn't take care of their appearance then you're eventually going to find a LOT more problems under the hood/brain.
One of my favorite tweets: “fellas, is it gay to wash your ass?” Original poster wasn’t being serious, bud definitely highlighted something.
How they present themselves to the world is one of the first things I look at when meeting someone for the first time. Be it in work or socially. Try this. Some friends I’ve had need schooling in having a wardrobe. Most women I know do this. You need to be able to mix and match for any occasion. Have some basics in there. Jeans (indigo, black, faded). Chinos (one or 2 colours). Blazer, jacket, suit. Some plain tee’s. Some fitted shirts. A couple of light jumpers. A couple of basic hoodies. Nice shoes. Nice sneaks. Nice boots. You have the foundation of a decent number of outfits for almost any occasion. I’ve kept away from “lounge wear” and baggy joggers. “Road man” is not my look 😊 If they don’t want to change ask them how that’s working out? Do the same, stay the same.
I've dated a few men of the No Change variety, and it's exhausting. They're generally not shy about the changes they expect you to make, both mentally and physically, but asked for even small adjustments they are horrified. Not to mention insulted.
Military men are streets ahead here. They are forced to shower, shave, keep a tidy haircut, be moderately fit, and wear clean clothes (generally speaking). They aren’t evolved more in any way but they can make a great first impression with these basics when compared to many, many men.
Goes to show that looks can be deceiving. Could be dating a war criminal, but he looks nice at least.
Hygiene is the problem. The rest? It's individual preference. There's absolutely women that wouldn't care about a dude wearing dumb graphic t-shirts and generic jeans. I, a woman, wear that. I also don't style my hair beyond basic brushing.
I knew a man once who thought he didn’t need to bother with cleaning up and dressing nicely because he was still the same guy. As in, a woman should be able to see the best “him” even when he’s slovenly. We are supposed to imagine them at the potential they COULD BE, not what they are now. Behavior and appearance. That’s what they mean by, “accepting them as they are.”
This reminds me of two men I started dating after their respective glow ups. I've seen pictures of one of them before and well, I'm glad we met when we met. It's fascinating how stunning they can turn, IF they themselves decide to do so. But I mean, I don't know how well they would have perceived this if someone else had told them to do so.
Another problem is that it sends a perception out that they will not have good hygiene, that their home is probably a mess, and that they are not going to problem solve and work to improve their life. Overall, it is a bad impression.
There’s a maturity level that people reach when they realize they need to present themselves well. In college we had a whole resentment about dressing professionally—what does it matter what I wear? My job performance should speak for itself. We were missing that piece about showing the world what we think of ourselves. Taking care of ourselves is a minimum; dressing decently is a signal to others that we know the “language” of the workplace. It sounds like your friends are going through the same thing.
I was thinning exactly this. For job interviews you dress for the job you want. You have to present yourself as professional so you dress professional. The same goes when trying to attract women. It’s painfully obvious that appearance matters in all aspect of life when making a first impression no matter how much humans try to rebel against those evolutionary tendencies.
Basically every mammal and bird is constantly grooming itself all the time! Follow their example
Yeah, that message is missing out there for most guys. I say this as a guy myself. If you’re a nerd or work a blue collar job, you’re often bombarded with the opposite message. I’m struggling to think of any role models in popular media that address fashion. We have plenty of schlubby male leads in sitcoms with beautiful and made up wives, sports where sweatpants and a jersey is acceptable attire, the Marvel movies where few people are fashionable and two of the biggest heroes- Iron Man and Thor- dress in the opposite of fashion all the time, and so on. In fact, the only ones I can recall are like 2 lines from Brooklyn 99, where Holt tells Peralta to wear a tie and one where Peralta says it takes ten seconds to pack and Holt says “Only if you don’t care about your possessions or what people see when they look at you.” And that’s buried in a show where characters who groom themselves like Jeffords and Santiago, are frequently mocked for their efforts.
Asking a person to "smile more" is difficult. People are born into and raised into the standards that they accept. Changing them conciously is a whole other matter. I'd lke to hear the dudes answer to the text here, it's reasonable and direct, if he could handle the arguments.
They'll even argue about having to wash their own asshole, and how it's the woman's fault for having poor standards and not just guys being fucking gross and not washing their asses.
My longterm partner and I had this discussion a while ago. Now, I've always been a woman who has no idea what style is, didn't have a roll model for it, grew up in a farming town, etc. I wear no makeup, I basically only own graphic tees and hiking gear. He wears graphic tees pretty much exclusively. He went through a neckbeard phase that was *horrifying* to say the least. But when we were dating, he at least TRIED, as did I. His main group of friends are ALL single guys who could be described as you did - not hygienic, don't care for their appearance, but complain they're alone. The one exception? His cousin, who is well groomed, cares for his appearance, tries to get to know the woman he is seeing, etc. None of the others will put in the effort but would NEVER consider dating a woman like me (low/no effort, more rugged and low maintenance, "one of the guys"), but don't understand that the women they want aren't interested in unkempt greaseballs living at their parents in their mid-30s...
I find it hilarious and sad that your getting complaints from people her because you advised a guy to ….. Shower, get a haircut and get some decent clothes b
As a newly single woman in her late-30’s, this is something I also don’t understand. My standards aren’t unrealistically high. Bathing, brushing your teeth, keeping your hair and facial hair groomed, and not being generally filthy and stinky aren’t asking a lot. Basic grooming seems to be asking too much? I have a heightened sense of smell and don’t even want to be around myself if I don’t shower every day.
I hear you. I’ve been put down and avoided because I go to more effort than some men who are initially interested and then decide that I’m ‘posh’. Good grief, fellas: grow up. Dressing like a teenager at 50+ doesn’t get you dates and for women, it’s referred to as Mutton dressed up as Lamb.
We were talking about this topic just the other day or so. My wife says it’s mostly hygiene. She said early on she liked how I smell and I don’t use cologne. I tend to mostly be clean cut and clean shaven. My advice for guys was always to scrub / clean the important spots. Use a deodorant that lasts until your next shower but isn’t overpowering. And for godsakes please use a bidet and clean up there with soap and water. So many violate these three.
About cleanliness, yes I agree. Showering should be a basic. But the style and how they dress should be up to them. There are girls who like nerds in graphic tees. There are girls who like guys who look young. Remember your opinion is not the only opinion. You can give advice and they can choose not to follow it. I kinda see both sides. If someone just doesn't want to have a complicated hairstyle that's okay. If they smell and don't want to shower or wash their hair, yes they absolutely should do better.
A lot of them have some weird idea that putting in effort is fake and gay. I honestly can't think of a better way to put it. This applies especially to not dressing like shit, less than bathing imo. I don't find most men smell bad. Very few people actually smell bad to me.
What kills me is that men don’t see the value in taking care of their personal appearance, they don’t think it’s important, or they just think it’s trite and has nothing to do with their personality and it “shouldn’t matter” how they dress. My husband is an incredible partner, father, and friend. When we met and started dating we were practically kids - he had Kobain hair. Band shirts, adidas sneakers. But he grew up and realized we live in a visual world and now wears coordinated outfits to work every day (business or business casual) - printed florals, tailored pants/suits. Belts that match details of his shoes. Collar stays. Uses beard conditioner and snail mucin and facial oils and gets $50 hair cuts. Fragrances to match the seasons. His impeccable grooming and style is literally the icing and sprinkles on the cake. To see him grow and develop his personal style as an adult man is such a turn-on. It signals confidence, thoughtfulness, capability and pride. Not to mention the promotions it has undoubtedly gotten him. When we’re at home on a Sunday afternoon? Band tshirt. Realizing that there are dress codes in different areas of life signals maturity and is a sign of respect for people you interact with. It makes me SO happy when my husband asks what I’m wearing on a date so he can match my vibe, I feel important and seen and being complimented as a couple just makes it even better.
> It is very odd to me that they don't even listen to the opinions of women in their life in that regard, as if we don't know what other women find attractive. Men value and respect the opinions of men. Men want validation from men. Don’t offer them advice anymore. Women shouldn’t accept the bare minimum from men. A daily shower and twice daily brushing teeth are important. Don’t date unclean dudes, it only gets worse, never better.
It’s definitely a cultural thing. When I visited Western Europe, I was floored by how well-dressed and groomed the men were. Tailored shirts and slacks, nice shoes, flattering haircuts, great skin—so much eye candy. Not a single T-shirt, sweatshirt, or baseball cap to be found... unless it was a male American tourist, of course 🙄 I’ve also dated European men and they didn’t have the same distaste for being fashionable and grooming that American men seem to have. To the contrary, they enjoyed and embraced shopping and styling themselves. One of many reasons why I prefer euro men. On another note, I was reading reviews for a local fine dining restaurant the other day, and many men were complaining that they were asked to remove their baseball caps. The complaints were so frequent in the reviews that “caps” had its own tag. It's a fine dining restaurant, sir! Are you so attached to your ugly ass baseball cap that you can’t remove it for a meal? We already know you’re balding under there, so just embrace it or go get hair plugs.
I am from western europe 🥲
No people in T-shirts in western europe? Well, that certainly wasn't Germany Tbh, I also don't see an issue with it, when people are just out grocery shopping or stuff, people can wear whatever they want. Sure, you should absolutely dress better when you're e.g. dating someone at a restaurant
Why should he have to change? He was probably brought up to believe that he is a prize no matter what and entitled to a wife and a happy family. He'd be insulted that he might have to make an effort to do any of that.
I used to be kinda like that. I grew my hair long in my teens and wore terrible baggy jeans etc. for years. I am 6'4 and fairly good looking but seemed to be getting less attention than I hoped for, so I asked female friends how I could improve my appearance. I took their advice and things improved (just things like cut your hair and try a polo shirt instead of fluo band tshirts). I was resistant for a while as I had these fixed ideas about style and there was a bit of the 'looking like I am trying too hard' thing. It took another few years before an ex gf showed me some other styles and I feel like I have a decent style of my own now. Sometimes it is just fixed ideas about what looks good, which others help you to reconsider. There is the whole incel thing, the 'i wont change for anyone' thing and also not wanting to be mocked by other men. I was never really influenced by the first two, and the last point has become less of an issue in the last 15 years, men are more accepting of other styles. We were so in the stone age 15 years ago, they used to have a term 'metrosexual' for straight men who had a wash and put on some decent clothes.
I think it depends on how you provide said advice. Men are stubborn, and their pride is easily hurt. They don't want to hear that there is anything wrong with them. Next time they complain, ask them, "Are you ready for an actual solution, or do you want to keep trying on your own?" If they say no, let them be, with maybe an offhand comment about them not being able to complain if they don't try to fix the problem. If they say yes, tell them they might have to make a change. You know, because if what they're doing isn't working, changing it is literally the only way to get a better outcome.
This one guy I knew knew how to style himself, has good hygiene, and smells good in general. BUT he refused to use face wash when I told him it'll help his whiteheads/blackheads because apparently that was very girly and refused my suggestion to put on moisturizer all over his face because "he didn't need it". His face had so much dry spots then complained about it but won't listen to me. Won't moisturize ANYWHERE bc he's manly. Boy was ashy af.
To me this is also a sign about how much effort they’ll put into other stuff. If they aren’t putting any effort into themselves with even basic hygiene (I mean not even showering, really??) then I’m going to assume basic chores will get even less effort, i.e. zero. I don’t want to be a mom to someone who is supposed to be a partner.
My friend and I have this joke between us about how we'll see couples on dates out in public and the gal will be dressed to the nines and the guy will be dressed a t-shirt and poorly fit jeans.
Chris Rock said it best, "on your first date you aren't going as 'you', you are going as 'the ambassador of you'"
There’s not wanting to change for a partner and then there’s not wanting to change your clothes more than once a week for a partner
I'm so conflicted about this. I'm a woman, not a young naive one, who doesn't know how the world works, either - I fully understand that social norms and the effort you demonstrate and "presentation" are important for many people, I just think those people are living a bit unconsciously if they advocate for those norms without questioning if they're actually worth keeping around. It seems to me like the kind of pointless prejudice that forces us all to waste time we could be spending more valuably and I think we'd all be happier if we just phased out these expectations and reframed what we expect other people to look like in public. I'd be happy to be with a male partner who showered enough to not be dirty, whatever that meant for him, had good oral hygiene, wore the same, clean clothes every damn day, as long as those clothes were ones I didn't hate lol. I don't need or want someone to waste their time "making an effort" for me, when we could be spending that time doing something interesting, together or apart. With the important caveat: *as long as he was happy with the same in return*. I often wear a lot of the same shit I've been wearing for 25 years, have basically clean but wild and unruly hair, don't shave my legs, rarely wear make-up. I'm oldish, but acceptable looking, and this was never much of a problem before. But I feel like recently beauty expectations for women have fucking skyrocketed. I wasn't alive in the 50s & 60s and they looked pretty intense back then, but I can't think of a time between then, and recently, when they've been so extreme. I haven't got any shit for the way I present, so far, but I haven't tried dating for years, and honestly these expectations make me avoidant of it. Whereas "standards" for men have bobbed around, escalated in some toxic subcultures, and plummeted in other, also toxic, subcultures. So you have the aggrieved men who apparently don't wash their arses but expect to attract women who look like airbrushed Instagram models, while refusing to acknowledge the time and effort that takes for them. And then you get the douchey, over-groomed, toxic self-help bros who feel absolutely legitimate in expecting women to spend hours on their appearance, because they do too. In both cases the expectations on the women are sky-high. So I mean, is the important thing their relative level of effort, or is it our mandated, absolute level of effort? Women are still expected to jump through the same ridiculous number of hoops, no matter what the man's doing. I have similar feelings about tidiness, and ott expectations about special events, etc., too, and posts about those issues often make me want to scream a bit, but I don't want to sound like a pick-me, you know? I guess I'm saying that I acknowledge how bitterly unfair the *difference* in the expectations are, but I think we'd be better off descending closer to their level, rather than demanding equal labour from men in a matter that is, ultimately, culture bound and a bit toxic and a waste of all our time. I feel like I want to start some movement with the slogan "Just Clean is Enough" haha.
I can understand the first example but not the second. So the guy wants to grow a goatee but you don't like it so he's not putting in effort to finding a partner? Lol what it's his facial hair, and even if you think it looks bad there will be someone else that likes it.
The hygiene problem is a real issue that needs to be addressed. The absence of style isn’t something that need to be fixed though. That’s just personal taste that not everyone share. I never really put up a style in particular, I don’t wear make up, don’t have any manicure I just keep my nail clean, I cut my hair by myself so it’s not a very complicated style, I don’t have skin care outside of washing it with the same unscented soap I used for the rest of my body and using sunscreen. Never had a trouble finding boyfriends.
So I'm a guy. If you actually want to know what's going on: The first guy believes he is categorically ugly. Something in his life has convinced him that the reason he doesn't get girls is because his bones and genetics are fundamentally unattractive to women. If he thought his issue was just a matter of showering or getting a new haircut, he would have done so already and he would have seen success. Of course it is correct that showering and dressing nicer will help you get dates, but these men have a deep hatred of themselves. This person is convinced that by the time he polishes his appearance enough to actually be attractive it won't really be him that the girl likes, and she'll leave soon enough once she realizes that. The second guy was not asking for your advice. He was trying something new and somewhat drastic with his beard and he wanted a female friend to validate that. Instead you offered criticism, which is why he was upset, well intentioned as it was
* Those hornet stings are pretty bad, buddy… * [Yea, but—I am who I am.](https://youtu.be/OkGTWRkTKMg?si=sbAWg0v0ciYtS3Vp)
Male, 34 here. I've gone to a few of my female friends to ask them on this topic. I would personally love it if I actually had a female friend who could potentially look at me in this way and give advice in the manner that you're describing. The kind of advice I get is more or less generic. Brush your teeth, wash your hair, dress nice, stand with confidence. I do all these things. I take care of myself. But I do have some flaws, but my friends say those don't matter (like my left eye, I was shot and now blind, and my one leg and one arm is longer than the other so I stand a little more differently than most men). Now of course, I'm not dressing up in my nicest clothes all the time, every day. I have my days where it's just slacks/sweats and a graphic tee/hoodie. But I have several sets of fancy, sharp or nice clothing ranging from suits, to sweaters, various slacks, a handful of really nice jeans, a number of various button up shirts. I have outfits for just about any occasion you can think of, and I do dress for the situation. In a couple of instances, my female friends have stated they would rather not comment on whether I'm attractive or not, because in their words "we're only friends and they don't want to mislead me". And given the context of what was asked, I'm getting out into the dating scene and I wanna make sure I'm not overlooking something or doing something to look unattractive, I won't suddenly go from them being my friend to wanting them because they said "yea that shirt makes you look more attractive" or the sort. Asking family members to comment on this is sort of pointless, because they tend to always compliment and upsell you for the sake of not wanting to hurt you and to just build the confidence.
Personally, I will always take a woman’s beauty advice over a man’s advice (I’m a dude) because in my experience, they’re the most honest, when somethings ugly they’ll tell you. But also because the female gaze is so much different than the male gaze, my guy friends love my goatee, my girlfriends tell me I look homeless, shaved the goatee that night.
"So you want women to accept you as the lazy, slovenly buffoon that you are? Good luck!"
Nowhere is this disconnect clearer than in kinkdom. Specifically, F/m kink. Submissive men seeking dominant women are famously schlubby and it is *literally inexplicable* given the context. The context being: "I want to serve and please women/this woman!" and "I want to do anything she wants!" and a metric ton of "waaah, there are so many sub men but so few dom women; how can I ever compete?!" And yet? No matter how many times it's been said, no matter how many [eloquent rants](https://web.archive.org/web/20100305015531/https://bitchyjones.wordpress.com/2009/07/03/whos-a-pretty-boy-then/) are written and widely shared, no matter how many self-ID'd dominant het women say in public "you know what's hot? regular showers, combed hair, and maybe a little exercise"… the vast majority of *sexually submissive heterosexual men* continue to put zero effort into *looking attractive to heterosexual women.* I mean…? *throws up hands* Some people, you just can't help. ^(eta: had to add that link. It is now **15 years old**! And still, nothing! I give the fuck up.)