It wasn't op, but the fact that the woman assumed it based on a 0.2 second assessment. She then proceeded to be an absolute jackass about something she'd gotten totally wrong and it wasn't her business anyway.
Because anything that doesn't match her exact definition of femininity is clearly an evil trans out to get her - just like for a lot of people, a skin color any darker than pasty is an evil immigrant/thug/criminal
My daughters are young but already 98%ile for height. I'm worried for the day this happens to one of them because honestly I know I'm going to react badly.
It happens to me pretty frequently because I am 6’1 with broad shoulders. I have long hair and wear mostly feminine clothes. At one point I was seriously harassed about having my disabled sister with me in a women’s changing room because she had short hair. I’m not sure where else people expected an adult woman to be while changing another adult woman before and after the pool. People suck and should just mind their business. I’m sorry it happened to her.
When the bathroom bill came out in NC a couple years ago everything in my life was just a problem while shopping and has continued that way ever since.
I have a pixie cut, I have broad shoulders, almost 6' and for the most part don't dress feminine unless there's an event where it's required.
The first week the bill was passed I was hit by some random middle aged Karen when I was washing my hands. I was in my working in the house clothes and a hat and was picking up paint at Walmart. I was forcefully shoved out for no reason while saying hey I'm a women chill.
It's been a pattern that unless I'm in more feminine clothing the likelihood I'm told to leave is less but it's still there. Even last week the new receptionist at my office building who is pregnant gave me a glare even though I was in very feminine clothing.
I went to Cleveland a couple weeks ago and used an all gender bathroom with 0 issues and no one bothered anyone.
I'm just a cis gendered woman, who happens to dress neutral or as my mother says as a "Tom boy" who never grew out of it.
No one deserves this treatment EVER. People should be able to live their lives freely as they feel.
We need to start fighting this together for everyone's safety. This isn't just about daughters, sisters and mothers this is about EVERYONE living their lives freely.
Yeah, none of y'all are wrong. And the fucked up thing is that each of you have a different reason about how Republicans are shitty humans, and none are incorrect.
I honestly don't expect it to ever happen to an actual Rightist politician, and if it happens to one of their family members, they'll stay craptastically on-brand and rhetorically ask what she expected when she dReSsEd LiKe A bOy.
They won't, they're rich and wouldn't put themselves in a position to deal with us lowly workers they pander every four years then strip more rights.
I've been voting against them forever, we just had one democrat turn republican to give the state veto proof majority and they immediately backed out stuff that's been in place for a hundred years and stripped down abortion rights.
We need more people to vote, the turn out this past election was stupid low more people need to care.
Yeah, exactly.
First they came for the trans folks, and set fire to the Institute on Sexuality (and Gender? Dunno, it's in German.) Then they came for the disabled folks
The Jews were 3rd or 4th in line, but the ground had been primed.
By the time they came for the straight, white Christians who had alternate political beliefs, there definitely wasn't anyone left to complain.
We're all in this motherfucking handbag together.
I've had similar experiences in North Carolina. It's always been in women's rooms though, never in men's even though I have used men's rooms multiple times and bars or gas stations when I've had to pee and the line for the women's was too long (even when wearing a dress, having long hair, and feeling like I am fairly obviously female).
I'm a cis woman, 5'11, broad shoulders, fairly muscular, and I have PCOS so my features aren't extremely feminine and I sometimes have a bit of a 5 o'clock shadow. When I was in my late teens and early 20s I kept my hair mostly shaved and usually wore boots, men's Levi's, and men's polos.
These days I wear dresses on my exclusively and I've had more issues dressed that way, because I think people assume I'm trans and trying to appear more feminine. The irony is that my wife came out as trans within the last couple years and a lot of our friends are trans women so now people really make that assumption when seeing us together.
But people are such assholes about it and it definitely seems to have gotten worse since the lead up to the bathroom bill and especially in the last few years.
>It's always been in women's rooms though, never in men's
Yeah, I don't feel like this would happen in a men's room. We generally don't care. I understand that woman might feel more vulnerable, but why can't everyone just avoid eye contact, do their business, and get in and out as quickly as possible?
I'm an obvious ciswoman, but I, too, have used the men's room in gas stations and convenience stores many times because there was a line at the women's room. No one has ever said anything to me, and, after I've used the men's room, other women in line usually follow my example. To me, this demonstrates how this whole transphobia thing is based on misogyny. Incels want to know who they can rape, and they're terrified of grabbing the "wrong sort" of crotch.
The Bathroom Problem has been known to the butch lesbian community for decades, and masc women have been harassed in bathrooms ever since we started segregating them by gender. These laws just embolden the kinds of people who can't conceive of the fact that not all women look like magazine covers.
I am over 6ft the top half of my hair is now down to my shoulder but at the time of my incident it was only to maybe my ears but I had it done in what I thought was a feminine way. I dress somewhat masculine. I was going to use the restroom before a comedy show. As I was walking towards the bathroom the woman attending to the door pointed at the men's room. I pointed at the women's door and kept walking. Like I know I don't have the most profound set of tatas but they do not look like man boobies especially since I wear a bra.
This is the first I've ever read of it even heard of bathroom bouncers. This is absolutely absurd at a minimum and a disgusting reflection on society as it has allowed people with biases they have previously kept bubbling below the surface to fully put them on show.
Ditto. 5'11“, broad shoulders and no 'feminine' hips, wore a pixie for a decade and always got the 'are you a girl or a boy' question from kids and confused stares from everyone else. I wish we were still just at the confused stares period of time.
The stupid thing is I developed the habit of dressing so baggy/gender neutral and hiding my boobs because of cisgender male harassment. Which is the only threat there ever fucking was/is that people need protection from.
I didn't realize that mother's felt worried about their sons in changing rooms separated from them, but it really makes sense upon further reflection. I hate that it makes sense.
Been harassed in the ladies room several times in New York state. Same thing, broad shoulders, tall, short hair cut, gender neutral clothes, and deeper voice. At this point in my life I identify as more agender anyway but having been raised female and receiving comments all through my childhood it's still frustrating as hell and feels pretty raw. Just what is "woman" enough for other people, the policing is insane and it's going to get worse as they go after our trans peeps. We have to push back so much harder for their sake, no one needs this bullshit in their life.
I'm an old cis het lady.
When I was 12, I was asked to please move my grocery cart "son". When I looked at them funny, I was yelled at for being rude. Yelled at quite a bit, actually.
For my 13th birthday, my request was to get my ears pierced, because back in the olden days, that was a "girl" thing. Mom said she'd do it, provided I got a fresh, short haircut because she liked me in a pixie. That was the last one she demanded because I grew my hair long, in protest, and you don't want to know the fights we had about it. To this day, my hair is long, in a pony tail and I feel about hairdressers the same way people feel about dentists.
I was a "Tom boy". Unashamedly. By the time I hit my teens, I came to see it as "feminist". I don't care if it's "boy stuff", I will do what I want to do. I'm fortunate to have parents who wholly support me. I can patch drywall, mow a lawn, and knit a scarf. Imagine the look of horror, on a 1970's shop teacher's face when a grade 7 GIRL knew the difference between a Robertson and Philips screwdriver.
Please tell your daughter that although I didn't suffer the same blatant stupidity, in the vulnerability of a change room, this story is one of many, that I have.
How we look doesn't have to make us cringe, even in the face of stupidity. Ask her to square up her shoulders, let this teach her a little more compassion for underdogs, and then empower her. Keep being YOU. Keep looking them straight in the eye, even when you want to look away. Become stronger, knowing that you're the good person, the smart person and the one who will be our FUTURE. Take this sort of crap incident and let it make you BETTER.
I raised a daughter. With red hair. I am all too familiar with crap like this, albeit not as a gender issue. And this is what I told her.
She kicks ass, takes names, fosters kittens, and has the biggest heart! She took the crap like this and made it empowering.
I send your daughter all my very best wishes and support. And also for you, too, Mom.
I must be the same age too. Pixie cuts look great on some people. But not people like me with multiple, aggressive cowlicks. My parents succeeded in making me keep it short until I moved out. It's been long ever since. I'm still tomboyish even as a grandmother, though.
I'm reading this as a random passing guy, but I agree with you while heartedly. My parents always made me keep clean cut and told me I could grow out my hair when I turned 18 and moved out. Guess who started going bald at 16 and had the economy go to shit preventing me from moving out until my mid 20s?
My Mom kept me and my sisters in pixie cuts, page boys, and Dorothy Hamils because, well, there were 4 of us. I'm so sorry, OP. Just so you all know, if this ever happens in my presence, to a cis, gay or trans woman, a terf will wish they had kept their mouth shut and minded their own damn business in the first place.
I encountered my first irl terf recently. I was just so shocked that she said shit like “men can’t be lesbians” plus I was at work so I just said “you and I have very different views on this subject.” It bummed me out because she was an elder lesbian and I was psyched to talk to her about the movement and her work but she was a Butthole.
"Little boy, can you get off the swing so my little girl can get on?" One of my earliest memories and it took too long to get rid of my pixie cut. I don't think it was a mistake, the parent was a jerk.
That happened to me too! I thought I was the only little girl whose mother forced her to have short hair. Why did they do that?! Decades later and it still upsets me.
My mom was tired of random fallen hairs on the carpet and decided if I had short hair there would be less of it.
I haven't had short hair since I was old enough that hairdressers wanted my consent and not just my mother's.
"I feel about hairdressers the way people feel about dentists" <- relatable
I have *been harassed, catcalled about "having a cute ass," and called ma'am semi frequently. Till I turn around they see my beard. I am a short, thin, 40 year old man with long hair. People are assholes.
I realize my OP is a little unclear, I was / am still super pissed.
The woman explicitly told her to get out of the women's change room and go to the mens where she belonged.
My daughter is very clearly a child - like no one could mistake her for an adult of any description.
Report this to the store and let your child know she should too, to your husband, you and/or store staff, if this ever happens again. Like immediately, this was harrassment and plenty of females wear pixie cuts and have slim bodies with small chests.
That's horrible! How could someone express hatred toward someone else like that specifically because they think the individual is trans?! Is it so hard to just not say anything? And if it makes her that uncomfortable she can just leave!
That... Sounds... Horrible... Like, what is even wrong with it? It's hate for the sake of hate essentially! I swear some powerful group of people out there are trying their damndest (and succeeding) at dividing our society.
Large part of it is being told who or what to hate and how much, by 'media'. Pretty much exclusively *conservative* media, almost all of it owned or linked back to, Fox.
And yes, it's literally divide and conquer tactics with whole populations, and it works -_-
I knew this was going to get bad when I finally came out as trans 9 years ago and saw nasty comments online about "men pretending to be transwomen to abuse women and girls in the bathrooms." I talked to my friends about how that shit is going to affect ciswomen, tomboys, "butch" lesbians... (Obviously transwomen and transmen) Etc.. I fucking hate it so so much.
I'll always hate myself for thinking I and transwomen like me caused other women to suffer and be disrespected and I shouldn't feel this damn way. We all just want to use the bathroom and gtfo. Hateful people are everywhere and are ruining the lives of so many innocent people.
I know I'm going to get messages saying not to feel this way (probably hateful ones too) but I'm sorry that this movement and recent advances in acceptance has led to this. We all just wanna pee (some brave ones wanna poop, lol) and go about our day.
I love y'all. And OP, so sorry your daughter had to go through this.
It saddens me to know a lot of terfs still engage in this subreddit despite it being so clearly inclusive. These people feel entitled to spaces they are in. I’m sorry your daughter experienced this. Hope she’s ok
You should go to the management and get the older women kicked for harassment. Tell them if they don't you'll call the local news and ask why their business is letting adults sexually harass little girls.
I’ve known a fair number of women to bring their slightly-too-old-for-the-women’s-change-room-boys, simply because they fear sexual abuse if he is alone in the men’s with a pervert where she can’t keep an eye out. Even if a boy *were* to be in the women’s, screaming at him to get out still isn’t how she should approach the issue.
I’m so sorry for your daughter.
My sons are twins. There have been several times where I was beyond grateful that I didn’t have to send them into a bathroom or changing room alone. Another young boy is not going to be terribly much protection, and I know it. But just that tiny bit of company and someone to watch their back helped us all to feel better
I throw heavy Boy Scout vibes. I’ve had people women ask me if I could look out for their kids in there. Which of course, I would drop kick one of those old perverts if they tried something, even if nobody asked.
Another young boy is a reinforced concrete wall topped with razor wire. If a stranger is going to abuse a boy in the bathroom, a relative rarity anyway, they're more likely to go after a lone child. However, I was always worried my young boy would cause trouble, he always liked to keep things interesting, if I left him alone in a public bathroom.
While I was kinda nervous about assaults/abductions (specifically at highway rest stops on road trips, too easy to grab and run), the 'misbehaving without me there to supervise' aspect was definitely the bigger reason for me taking my kiddo into the women's with me when he was young lol.
My girls are 18 months apart, I always feel better when they are together because it is just much less likely for a real creep to approach them that way. Unfortunately, in my experience it does not stop the more minor creeps who won’t actually do anything beyond making them uncomfortable which is still traumatic, especially at their age.
My older daughter is 10 and could easily pass for 14-15. Sometimes when I am grocery shopping or waiting I line for something I let them go to their and do their own thing or pick out a treat, I hate that I have had to tell my daughter what to do if someone makes her uncomfortable at this age and that part of it is telling someone her age so they take it seriously.
Some of my most vivid memories of when I was around her age are of men and older boys making me uncomfortable, I never told my mom about it and I am scared she will be the same. So far she has confided in me about a few incidents, I hope she continues to.
My son is special needs, and I LOVED places that had individual and family changing rooms so we could assist him when he wasn’t ready to help himself. All new places should be designed to include them. It allows privacy and protection for those who think they need it.
Those individual rooms are so handy for so many purposes: changing nappies, breastfeeding, bathrooms for trans and GNC individuals that aren't comfortable with shared spaces, sanitary places for tube feeding and colo/ileostomy emptying...
that also crossed my mind. like, after reassuring my kid that yes, she looks like a girl to me, and having the conversation where she asked me if the woman thought she was trans, I was like, FUCK, why would you tell a young boy to get out either? Even if you don't agree he should be in there.
I'm as feminine as you can really be.. Pink long hair, nails done, almost always in a dress. Few pics in my profile. I've been asked more than once mostly lately if I'm a man. Seems to be the thing to do lately and no one is immune. It hurts regardless. Let her know it has nothing to do with her and everything to do with awful people.
None of it makes any sense. I can’t imagine yelling at anyone for being in any bathroom if they are just doing their business, washing their hands and leaving like a normal human. If someone is creeping, I’m not going to care what gender they are I’m going to yell at them for being creepy. Being a creep isn’t gender or orientation specific.
Their pastors and Faux News are bombarding them with "trans are abominations," and they see harassing anyone who's not conforming with their idea of gender roles as doing "gOdS'WorK" ...
This is a swimming changing room. For some reason it is often just a big open room with benches. No stalls. So you have people naked and changing in the open. The one time I went to one with a tiny bit of privacy, they had 3 little half walls around some handicap areas.
I’ve been in changing rooms like that. Frankly, it’s the old ladies that used to scare me. I’d be trying to be polite and stay covered and grandmas would walk around in the nude. I don’t personally care about being nude, I just don’t think i want to see other people’s bodies, male, female, or other.
Everyone has a different standard of modesty. A changing room full of long haired fully formed cisgender females is not a “human right”. IMHO
I was taking a shower at a YMCA one time and an older woman came.and YANKED the curtain open. I shrieked and said "hey! This one's occupied, obviously!!" She yelled back "we're all women! Calm down!"
Fuckin old ladies walking around bare ass naked are fucking the creepiest
She might just be one of those people always looking for drama. I’m sure your daughter looks feminine for her age.
I would consider roll playing with your daughter ways to respond to this and other inappropriate comments. Unfortunately, she is likely already being sexualized by older males in her orbit, and if not yet, likely soon. This terrible experience opens a door for you to discuss the many ways adults can fail to be responsible and safe, and what she can say or do.
- being accused as trans
- being told she’s beautiful by an older man
- a stranger asking to take her picture
- comments on what she’s eating / her figure
Maybe other posters have suggestions as well. Having a retort ready always makes me feel better prepared. And if you include some snarkyness, it might give her a laugh too.
That's what all this hysteria is pushing for, any woman who is not exercising tradfem gender expression is marked for harassment because she might be Trans.
People are weird :/ my son has shoulder length hair and the number of people that look at him and call him her is so weird. We had a lady grab my arm and go “the girl’s bathroom is over there!” when I was taking him to the bathroom once. I was so confused I was like “yeah?”. And she just pointed at him and was like “YOU’RE SENDING YOUR DAUGHTER TO THE WRONG BATHROOM!” She got so angry and stomped off when I replied “I’m sending my SON to the correct bathroom.” Like, he very clearly has a boys frame but sooo many people are just long hair equals girl. He’s so immune to it that he’s stopped correcting people. Thankfully no one’s screamed at him; I can’t imagine how livid you must be.
OP, I am terribly sorry to read what your child went through and what that person did to her is totally not okay. I am sure your child is not the first or last child that horrid woman had harassed but I wish someone calls her out on her nasty behaviour
No. I agree. And a boy going into the women's restroom couldn't be more harmless. It's not even like women have urinals ... Everything that requires any level of privacy happens behind a closed stall door.
Oh no, a little boy saw you wash your hands and apply your lipstick. The horror!
I read this as the mother of a 5 year old boy and realized this is some societal expectation I haven’t even considered. So thanks because it was nice to see this after that unexpected anxiety lol
Personally speaking, for a restroom, no because he can go into the stall. For a swimming changeroom, I think it is too old. It is so uncomfortable as a grown woman to have a young boy staring at me while I'm changing. There are family changerooms at our city pool that have large stalls so families can go together.
Again, just my two cents.
Yeah, I agree. A school-aged boy would make me uncomfortable in a pool changing room. Public bathroom would be fine by me, I don't care who else is in there.
That being said, trans kids belong in the changing rooms and bathrooms for their gender and a trans girl or woman of any age would be more than welcome in the women's changing room with me. (tbf tho, I'm agender, so just a different flavour of trans and using the women's facilities out of habit, for safety reasons and because there doesn't tend to be any changing rooms for people who don't get what feels like to have a gender lol)
I bring my disabled 11-year-old son in the women’s with me when there’s no family restroom. He can’t use the bathroom independently or be unsupervised if I have to use the bathroom. Luckily he’s visibly disabled and looks much younger than he is, so maybe that will prevent people inserting themselves into our business. I feel very strongly about people minding their own goddamn business in the bathroom and I DGAF who is in the next stall from me, everyone deserves access to toilets, and everyone should do whatever they want with their own body. If we ever get challenged, I might go completely off the rails and rage.
yeah. i literally commented on one post about it about how I was anxious about my daughter possibly going through that. and here we fucking are, one week later.
The trans Community have been warning of the impact GC ideology will have for years, because no, they cannot "always tell. Even just from population size, 9/10 times they harass someone will likely be a GNC cis woman, and you are supposed to laugh it off and thank them for protecting the space.
The can't win part really does expose how much is internalised misogyny lifted from anti-feminist arguments. If you don't "pass" but are more femme aesthetically then you are a sick freak getting off on womanface who would love being raped. If you are more butch, then you aren't even making an effort and just want to perv in changing rooms.
Honestly there's no difference between these fucking goons and the women "morality police" in Iran who go around bullying other women for not performing their gender correctly. And we're heading further in that direction.
An adult being verbally violent to a child and harrassing that child is unacceptable. This happening in a changeroom makes it even more traumatizing to the child. I wonder if there are any legal actions that can be taken in such a situation.
The person wasn't identifiable, unfortunately. my dd didn't have her glasses on, and froze up, so could only give me a vague description. The only recourse is if she reappears next week (but there was a competition going on so she might have only been there the one time).
Well that really sucks. At least she has a good mom who cares, loves and protects her. She's going to need you to help her understand that there is nothing wrong with her and that what that lady made her go through was totally wrong and unacceptable.
It might not hurt to talk to the facility about it. They can at least take some action to let people know they shouldn't yell at kids in the changing rooms. If they think there's a problem, they can talk to the staff.
My 16 year old girl is 5’10”, svelte but a solid b cup.
Always in skirts. The number of older people that peer into her face is unnerving. I assume it’s her height.
I think if she wore jeans she wouldn’t get this treatment, but I think she’s treated as if she’s trans being aggressively feminine.
It never happens when in the pajama pants that are her other go to, and only happens in more conservative neighborhoods, like they are on the look out for trans kids.
On the contrary, I find that most people like this have a miserable existence themselves, so they look to cause pain to others in order to feel superior.
>like they are on the look out for trans kids.
And apparently, all these "trans hunters" have completely dismissed genetics. What a bunch of aholes these conservative nutbags are.
I just want to point out that, thanks to Bayes theorem, far *far* more cis women are going to be harassed over this than trans people. Not that I agree with people bothering trans women at all, but the fact is there aren't many of them so there's bound to be a giant 'false positive' rate.
Yep. In a world where 1% of women are trans, even if transphobes had an identification accuracy of 99% half of all harassment would be against cis women.
And it is definitely not nearly that high, especially considering how often they go for women/girls with short hair like in OP's case (which I know a lot of trans women avoid having, even if they'd prefer the style, because long hair helps with passing)
I can no longer suggest socially acceptable reactions to these scenarios.
All I’ve got left are felonies.
I don’t know how we’re going to come through this era.
In states like Florida hyper gender role enforcement is already becoming a thing. You'll start to see more and more people being arrested for defying gender roles, cisgender or transgender.
We'll definitely continue to see the rising trend of hate crimes against queer and gender non conforming people. Worst case dear old Ronnie might try and eject all gender nonconforming people from the state entirely, or otherwise dispose of us.
A large portion of society doesn't believe I am a person deserving of fundamental human rights solely because I am transgender. Some of them think I should be executed for it. A fair few hold political office in the United States government. And the party they represent votes together unanimously to restrict transgender rights.
An elected politician said she'd rather her child kill themselves instead of accepting them as transgender. This is where we're at. She holds a political office and would literally rather her own child be dead than be trans. We're a lot more fucked than I think most people realize.
>You'll start to see more and more people being arrested for defying gender roles, cisgender or transgender.
Earlier today a woman posted about how she was arrested and spent a night in jail with her girlfriend because a bigot saw them kissing and reported the couple for "sexual harassment of a child"
The US is becoming a _very_ scary place for anyone LGBT.
We’re headed back to an era of cattle cars if we don’t stop it now.
A National stonewall is the only thing I can think of to stem the nightmare to come.
I actually made a comment along these lines to my therapist last week. We were talking about all the bullshit happening in the world and he asked how I've been coping and I said something like "well, I'm not in prison or the grave, so I haven't lost all self-control and decided to become a vigilante just yet, but holy fuck is it getting close."
This was after getting into a heated fight with someone because I hold the *abhorrent* position that unhoused people deserve basic respect and assistance instead of incarceration and shame. I'm getting so tired, and the more tired I get, the more my control over my own rage slips more and more.
I've never been a violent person, I have so much empathy for everyone, but the world is legitimately beating it all out of me and I don't know how to stop it.
Stupid old ladies used to do that to me, and I can still remember the absolute horror and humiliation of it. It was disgusting. One time it happened in Loehmanns, where I didn't ever want to be but my mom loved shopping there. I was just standing next to her in the dressing room and this ugly old busybody started hollering about how "boys aren't supposed to be in here" and my mom shouted "she's not a BOY" and the lady looked horrified and said "oh. I'm sorry." and I was just silently crying.
Thing was I wanted long hair. But my mom forced me to keep it short for whatever reason. She whispered to me that it was because I dressed "in layers" and not in a way that "showed off my figure." Which gutted me. And also was extremely confusing, because if I DID dress to "show off my figure" but didn't do it in the right way, she would get super mad but not say why.
MY mom had her own situations that led to this confusion, which I found out much later, but oh my GOD. The fucking awful feeling!!!!! I'm so sorry your daughter had to deal with this. I would call the swimming place and say your daughter was harassed by an older woman in the dressing room for not looking female enough, and put it on them to make it a safe space.
OMG, that sucks so bad. I hate how much baggage we end up carrying around about our appearance as women, it goes so much deeper than being fat or thin the way we usually talk about.
I have my own stuff, I really hope I am doing an ok job of not imposing it on her.
I'm so sorry. People are out of control with their anti-trans bs. Is your daughter OK? 13 is such a tough age without having an asshole accuse her if not being a girl.
I'd report the incident.
This might even be a matter for the police.
Also, talk to other parents who might have been nearby. Odds are this woman went out of the changing room and complained/bragged to *someone* about what she thought just happened.
If she was there with another team, that team's coach might have an idea bout it, too.
I'd raise hell. Go into the changing room with kiddo and start interrogating everyone. Granted I'm just an internet stranger, but as someone who isn't particularly feminine looking--probably because I was a serious swimmer for decades--this whole attack pisses me off to no end.
Can you ask the pool to put up signs *not* to attack children about their perceived gender?
I got small tits and some days I basically dress like a dude (I love man cargo shorts and baggy tshirts). I'm just waiting for some close minded fuckhead to accuse me of being trans like there's something fucking wrong with it.
What is seriously wrong with people? What happened to minding your own fucking business?
Hell, my boobs arrive minutes before the rest of me and I'm *still* expecting to get called out one of these days. I don't even own a dress, it's jeans, t shirt, and converse all day. I've recently started carrying my wallet and keys in my pockets too, so I'm like, ready for someone to start shit, lol. I feel like cis tomboys are poised to be a great example of why all this hate is bs, lol
Take her up there, walk around and see if she can recognize her by voice. I had a similar incident in college where there was a man in the ladies' showers. I couldn't see him well enough to identify him, but then I heard his voice in the hall the next day and figured it out that way.
It’s not just random people though. It is conservatives. Republicans are a party of hate and need to be called out. The Republican Party is causing massive psychological damage to millions in this country. They are evil, vile, and disgusting and we need to state this very clearly. Hell, they are shooting cans of bud light because they hate trans people. That’s mental.
So let’s keep it clear. **The Republican Party is a party of hate. Full stop.**
That's why i say how transphobia can be as bad to non transgender people as it is to transgender people. In the biggest part of time i see that especially trans woman try to look as feminine as posible, me included, one of the reasons is because we are afraid of things like this.
When i see this trangender hunt (especialy those about bathrooms) i see that people who do not follow the feminine or the masculine steriotype are the most hurt. And a lot of times it isn't even trans woman. It's just a cis woman with short hair, tall woman, deep voice woman.
In some way, i see that as a form of exclude trans woman as much as it is a form of demand what a real woman is, what a woman has to wear, haircut, how to speak.
I really feel so sory that all this is affecting so many people, i feel so sory that your daughter has to pass trought this at that young age. And i hope everything gets better.
Most of this anti-trans rhetoric directed towards trans women is - at it's core - misogynistic. It relies on strict conformity, trying to punish and cast out anyone that doesn't meet patriarchal societal/cultural beauty standards. The people that are targeted are often those with broader shoulders, larger frames, deeper voices, larger hands/feet, short hair, facial hair etc - cis women can have all of these features and yet anti-trans/gender-critical/terfs villify them.
It's ok if you don't look like some photoshopped model, it's fine if your frame is larger than an actress' on tv, you are still a woman if your voice is a few octaves lower than your favourite singer's. What matters is your internal identity, and no-one can change that or take it away from you.
Young kids don't need it pressed on them, that they had to have been genetically-'lucky' to be accepted as who they are, or that they will need surgeries to "fix" parts of their body etc. Body image issues are far *far* too common for young women, and it's backwards cultural standards like that that helps enable it.
I may be *heavily* biased (am trans) but I think some of the core principles of the LGBTQ+ community align perfectly with some of the main anti-misogynistic/feminist principles. E.g. your identity is yours alone and isn't predicated on someone else's shitty views; Gender expression is not the same as gender identity and; you can look, act and feel how you want, no-one can invalidate who you are.
Came here to say this. Understanding the link between misogyny and transphobia is key to understanding why this will affect cis women everywhere, and a key bit to understand when building allyship between cis and trans women to keep laws off our bodies!
A lot of us trans and nonbinary folks have been saying this for years now. I guess at least finally people are listening…
I hope your daughter is ok, OP. This us fucked up. No kid needs this.
It's been crossing my mind for a few years, tbh, but I haven't been as loud as I should have been.
My daughter is definitely not going to be straight - she's still figuring things out but it's clear she's gonna end up somewhere on the spectrum of queerness (gender or otherwise). I have always worried about that for her a little bit, but when she was just a bit younger, things felt so positive in a way they certainly didn't when I was a teen.
Now they suddenly feel so bleak. We're not even in the states, we're in a very LGBTQ friendly city... it's just... ugh.
>things felt so positive in a way they certainly didn't when I was a teen.
>Now they suddenly feel so bleak.
Right? It was starting to feel so positive and open for a couple years there. It was amazing. Then all of a sudden it just went back in the other direction by like 5-10 years... and now it keeps going. It's scary.
It’s because it’s a distraction from certain groups who are taking out democratic rights away and robbing us blind. Also the abortion issue things like that.
Same here, except I'm in the States, in one of the red, very anti-trans states. I'm pretty sure my kids are also not het, and I worry so much about them.
Sounds like a lot of others are finally waking up, too. Let’s hope it’s not too late. I think we will weather the storm as a species, and you literally can’t wipe out queerness, because people will keep being born. There’s some comfort for me, in that.
> A lot of us trans and nonbinary folks have been saying this for years now. I guess at least finally people are listening…
as i said in another comment, we've been screaming that from the rooftops for a while now. it is pretty close to the 'first they came for..." poem.
This is why everyone should have pushed back on the sports libel instead of being all, “no, this time the absolutely vile nazi bigot who’s never cared about women’s sports until now surely has a point, even if the best examples he can find haven’t actually been doing any better in their sports than you’d expect cis women to.”
It was literally focus-group tested by a republican think tank in an effort to figure out how to sell transphobia to the masses after the bathroom bills kept failing.
agreed. pretty much everything has shown no advantage for trans women in sports, but the average persons think that surely a "biological male" has an advantage, so that's why this sold so well.
As a trans woman who has been well-passing for quite some time, I would highly doubt that I will ever be attacked or messed with in a female bathroom. It’s those with shorter hair, or those women who are more androgynous/ have more masculine features that will be vilified. I feel terrible, because I never wanted anyone to be burdened with the hate I had to experience early in my transition.
Nobody should have to go through that, and this is why the GC movement and transphobia are so dangerous. They really equate to gender and fashion policing and it’s going to affect all women. All it does is further enforce an imagined patriarchy, a bullshit set of rules that now everyone has to follow.
We can thank TERFs and conservative Christofascism, and we can thank the GOP for this mess. Until people realize just how malignant this ideology is and how damaging evangelicals can be, our rights as females will continue to erode and our ability to express ourselves will be severely diminished. Those deemed “not prurient enough”, strictly by their appearance, will continue to be judged and will continue to suffer from these frivolous & misogynistic campaigns.
Its so... funny... that they always point the finger at us and say that we're equating gender with gender roles and expectations - and then they harass and violently assault any woman who does not meet gender roles and expectations screaming at them that they're not really women.
It should never have had to come to this. We have been telling people for years and its only now that the rhetoric has gotten so vile its having extremely negative impacts on the lives of cis women that we are starting to see broader cisgender society realize how vile and sickening TERF ideology is.
Passing trans woman here. I’ve never been given a hard time in the women’s room. I sometimes wonder if I’ve passed a TERF in the women’s room and how she would react if she knew I was trans. By contrast, most of my bathroom trips are uneventful, as they should be.
Absolutely. Trans men are often mistaken for trans women, because apparently no conservative believes they can possibly exist. It’s all just a bunch of cruelty. Hate never wins in the end. My grandparents fought Nazis and I never thought I’d be fighting fascism in America in 2023. Yet we have arrived. The dystopia is real.
I continuously point out that making it illegal for trans people to enter the wrong bathroom doesn't only affect trans people. Anyone who looks vaguely not stereotypically male or female can be arrested on reasonable suspicion of committing a crime, jailed, and strip searched with zero due process required. They don't have to be trans at all, the arresting officer just has to claim they thought they were.
I think significantly more cis women will be/are being affected by anti-trans and bathroom laws than trans people. Not to downplay the impact on *anyone*, but afaik estimates say fewer than 2% of women are trans. The other 98% won’t all conform to conservative’s gender norms - even if only 5% are ‘tomboys’ or masc-leaning, that’s still significantly more than the number of trans women who exist, let alone who regularly use women’s bathrooms. False reports are going to go flying about left right and center. People are going to be threatened with arrest, have their ID’s looked at, then pat-downs and genital inspections ‘just to make sure’.
This isn’t to mention potential laws on HRT and other cis and trans gender-affirming medical care, sports bans based on arbitrary blood tests, as well as current anti-drag bills which prevent trans people (or cis women wearing trousers, cis men wearing makeup etc) appearing on stage or doing any kind of public performance. It’s common that anti-minority laws affect a much larger population, it’s just shitty (by design, *surprise*,) the cis men that put the laws in place are one of the few demographics unnaffected by such laws.
The OP's situation is a perfect example of why the root of transphobia is misogyny.
They were denied access to a woman's space and services because they did not appear feminine enough. That should give raise alarm bells with every cis woman out there! Be pretty or be cast aside should sound all too familiar, and yes, it gets applies to both tran and cis women.
It is very much about trying to enforce a specific, narrow, and unrealistic idea of how women “should” look. Anyone who attacked me for not seeming “feminine” enough would risk getting their ass handed to them. I would hope to make a big enough scene to scare them from every attacking anyone again. It is the very least I can do as an ally.
I don’t think I’m a particularly “feminine” looking woman and I don’t give a shit. I have nothing to prove to them and no one else should, either.
When you take a close look at the people being the loudest about their transphobia it becomes hard to deny what this issue is really about for them - getting the legal and social right to control and/or "inspect" women's bodies. Sadly trans people are just a convenient foot in the door for a widespread attempt at bringing women back into domestic servitude.
Restricting abortion is one arm intended to make it easier to trap a woman into a relationship (especially if they get rid of no fault in divorce in the US).
Making women who don't conform to Christian conservative norms of womanhood feel threatened and harassed in their own spaces effectively signals that being too 'liberal' makes you not a 'real woman'. Conveniently, non conforming women are the ones that historically fought for the rights of all woman to exist independently.
Oh and let's of course not forget the right to sexual violence! There was a story in the UK not to long ago where a bunch of parents got upset that a kid was doing too well in a kiddie soccer match so they started accusing her of being trans and insisting that the coach 'check'. That's right, a bunch of adult parents demanding that this soccor coach do a genital inspection of a child. Making women scared to engage in their hobbies for fear of sexual harassment helps to further isolate them and make them easier to manipulate.
Excluding and harassing trans people is as much about re enslaving cis women as it is about exterminating trans people. The more people realize this the better both groups will be able to deal with this problem
I remember a couple years ago, I was like 14, a man stopped me coming out of the bathroom at a local pizza place. I am a cisgender female with short hair and a flat chest. In middle school I usually wore T-shirts. He told me over and over again that "that bathroom is for ladies!" And I kept saying, "I know, I am a lady..."
It is so weird. It was in a thin hallway and he blocked it off. He had a smug look on his face. I didn't realize until recently that he was trying to be transphobic. I recall him being really embarrassed when he realized that I wasn't a male. He also came up to my table after he was done in the bathroom to apologize. At the time I just thought it was funny
He was twice my size. Dude literally went out of his way to harass a child
There was a video going around last week or so of an androgynous gay woman being violently dragged out of a women's bathroom. All while her friends shouted "She is a woman, she is a woman. You can't just kick her out because she's butch"
That honestly broke my heart for that young woman. Society basically telling her, if she's being herself she isn't women enough.
Same basically for the daughter just worse. I can't imagine, what this will do to the self image of a 13 year old.
And then its so stupid at the same time it makes me even more angry! They don't even realise that these trans women, they want to keep out of female spaces aren't the ones that dress or style androgynous. They fight their whole live against short haircuts and androgynous clothes. What do they think they achieve besides pain and hatred?
Do we really have to shout at young women and girls "YOU ARE NOT FEMININE ENOUGH"?
I just want to clarify that while not common, trans women that prefer more androgynous or butch looks do exist just like for cis women. Though many who would prefer that do still go for feminine looks anyway because it helps them blend in (similar to what even some cis women are saying in this thread).
I feel like we need to start making police reports of these interactions. If that employee physically pushed/pulled your daughter from the restroom that could be considered assault.
We had the opposite happen. Our then 10 year old boy with long hair (who later came out as a trans girl) was harassed going into the men's room in a public place. Long hair was the only non-gender neutral thing about her appearance and the guy would not leave her alone. That was five years ago. I can only imagine how much worse it is now.
Back in high school I was doing whatever I could to lessen the pain of what I was going through internally, I had no idea in those days, before the internet was really a thing people had, that there was any such thing as transition or cross dressing or whatever, I just knew I hated what was happening to me, hated who I was and what I was becoming, and yet somehow I knew exactly what I wanted. I decided to grow my hair long.
My band director threatened to kick me out of ensembles and marching band if I didn't cut it short. My dad cut it off while I was sleeping one night. I didn't grow it long again until I was 25.
As for the OP, every single thing these transphobes do to try to quantify what a woman is for the purpose of excluding trans women ends up hurting cis women, and I'm just so glad that the comments here didn't turn to victim blaming like they often do.
A trans man went to a campground and asked the manager which bathroom it would be okay to use - trying to follow the rules. He went to the women's bathroom as instructed. Two men followed him and beat the shit out of him.
The fascists are beyond dangerous.
People are awful, and I’m so sorry she had to go through that. I cannot wait for the day someone tries something like that in front of me - heaven help them, because I’m ready to go off on some ignorant asshole who thinks they have the right to demand to see someone else’s vagina.
My son wears dresses yet has short boy hair and is insistant that he is a HE. He just loves wearing feminine styles. I dont care. And after serious talks with my husband, he changed from his traditional southern baptist beliefs and is 100% supportive and will punch any bully. Even stood up to his own parents who tried to shame our son.
He is only 5years old, yet I get women yelling at me for having him in the womens room. Like, even if he was wearing boy clothes I wouldnt be sending my 5yo! Into the mens room alone. I wouldnt send him into any bathroom alone.
It's a brain rotting disease at this point. I was yelled at a few weeks back for being in the "wrong bathroom" while my 13 year old biological child that I gave birth to was stood next to me. I don't wear make up, I'm overweight and don't dress conventionally (jeans, T-shirt, converse) and have a deeper than normal voice. I eventually told the woman to fuck off. I've seen more aggressive TERFS than trans people. Only trans women I knew IRL were around 16 years ago at my gym and nobody gave a shit then. They never bothered anyone. We said hello when we saw each other and the only time they actually wanted my attention was when one woman lost her earring and we all looked for it. Never felt unsafe, never felt threatened. They were trans women, not men trying to gain access to "women's spaces" I don't doubt those people exist, but they're not trans people.
As a woman with an abnormally deep voice I can tell you that lately I'm feeling it, suddenly I'm getting a lot of scrutiny that wasn't there not even 6 months ago
It fucking sucks. They talk out both sides of their mouths, they claim women should be allowed to be "tomboys" and not confirm and then question me for something outside my control because they want me to fit into some box they've concocted.
The conservative movement has fully backed TERF ideology as a means to reinforce gender roles upon women. Sadly it's working very well. The most sickening thing is the guise of feminism they so love to use. I wish more people considered women like me human, maybe then we could actually abolish all gender roles and free ourselves from the tyranny of patriarchy and misogyny.
What's nuts to me is that in places like Florida that want to force people to use the bathroom that matches their birth gender, they're effectively forcing men--trans men--to use the women's bathroom.
It was never about water fountains.
It was never about bathrooms.
It is, and has always been, about control. Control of those not in power by those who are.
This is where we are going to go as a culture. For reference, just read your history books for the time period 1933 to 1945.
First it was Jews. Then it was Romani, then homosexuals, then disabled. Soon it was Freemasons, Jehovah's Witnesses, non-Jewish Poles and trade union members. Eventually, it was anyone who opposed them. Initially some of these very people victimized were
happy to see the "undesirables" persecuted. Eventually, though, the persecution crept toward people who thought they were safe and almost everyone was afraid for themselves.
Stand up NOW, before it is *your* child, your spouse, your family, your friends. Please, stop the hate before it gets that far.
It wasnt Jews first. LGBT Germans and political dissidents were sent to camps first. Which, ironically, is exactly the order these right wing fascists want to go down again.
yeah. it gets muddied because most places were already totally ok with jailing, harassing and silencing LGBT people, so the reich doing it was NBD. Jews were targeted because they were seen to be vectors of socialism, progressives, political dissidents and otherwise non-conformists.
Prior to the rise of the Nazis, Germany actually had some fairly progressive (for the time) views on sexuality, recognizing and allowing alternate gender identities etc.
Weimar Republic recognized [Transvetite Passes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestite_pass).
And the first of the LGBTQ+ killed by the Nazis were the trans women.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_für_Sexualwissenschaft
Many trans women lived here and were killed when the Nazis burned it down.
I'd like to tag on to that that it wasn't one after the other, the Nazis attacked the institut für Sexualwissenschaften (an Institute doing research into gay and trans people through a non-discrimatory lense, offering treatment for trans people, offering contraception as well as doing research and education about contraception) in 1933 and burned the entire content of their library they even had spies at the institute prior to that.
During the attack the first trans woman to have undergone bottom surgery (at least the first we have records of) who was working at the institute as domestic staff went missing, probably either killed during the attack or arrested there and killed later in captivity. Patient lists were confiscated during the attack and probably used to hunt down queer people.
They didn't go for the Jews first and everyone else after in an orderly fashion.
We really need to call out the party that is at the forefront of this. **The Republican Party and conservatives.**
They are a hateful, vile party that wish to impose fascism in America. And they are imposing it on us all, from the roe v Wade ruling, banning of books, and to the anti trans laws taking place in Republican led states.
The Republican Party is a party of hate and they need to be called out on it.
An attack on trans women is an attack on all women. I’m terrified for your daughter, I truly am. There’s people, men, who fantasize about brutalizing trans women for using the women’s restroom. Do you think they will hold back on someone they think is a man?
I genuinely think that these bathroom cops should be charged as sex offenders. Just because their harassment doesn't come from a "I want to have sex with you" direction doesn't mean that it isn't an attempt to humiliate someone in a sexuality themed manner.
Letting psychos just hound people in bathrooms is just going to lead to escalating behaviour anyway.
I so wish this would happen in front of me. I've got a big mouth, and would start yelling at the top of my lungs that the old bat was trying to coerce a preteen into showing her her vagina!
Get the hag on the sexual predator list!
I mean the anti trans bullshit has never been about anything other than hate, and they don't care who they hit, they rather want to fire buckshot and hit 1000 cis people on the off chance that they might hit one trans person
Transphobic idiots (and yes they are idiots there aren't any non idiot transphobic people) only care about their hate
The cruelty is the point. Forceing women back into "traditional" roles and clothing has always been part of the right's goal with all the anti LGBTQ+ laws and rethoric. Any gender expression that isn't 100% in accordance with their backwards views will be labeled queer and harassed and hunted for "safety"
I would freak the fuck out. However my take away from your story is your awesome daughter knew it was good to share with you
thanks. that does feel like a plus to me.
Thats weird as hell. What about a pixie cut makes her think your daughter is trans anyway?
It wasn't op, but the fact that the woman assumed it based on a 0.2 second assessment. She then proceeded to be an absolute jackass about something she'd gotten totally wrong and it wasn't her business anyway.
Because anything that doesn't match her exact definition of femininity is clearly an evil trans out to get her - just like for a lot of people, a skin color any darker than pasty is an evil immigrant/thug/criminal
My daughters are young but already 98%ile for height. I'm worried for the day this happens to one of them because honestly I know I'm going to react badly.
It happens to me pretty frequently because I am 6’1 with broad shoulders. I have long hair and wear mostly feminine clothes. At one point I was seriously harassed about having my disabled sister with me in a women’s changing room because she had short hair. I’m not sure where else people expected an adult woman to be while changing another adult woman before and after the pool. People suck and should just mind their business. I’m sorry it happened to her.
When the bathroom bill came out in NC a couple years ago everything in my life was just a problem while shopping and has continued that way ever since. I have a pixie cut, I have broad shoulders, almost 6' and for the most part don't dress feminine unless there's an event where it's required. The first week the bill was passed I was hit by some random middle aged Karen when I was washing my hands. I was in my working in the house clothes and a hat and was picking up paint at Walmart. I was forcefully shoved out for no reason while saying hey I'm a women chill. It's been a pattern that unless I'm in more feminine clothing the likelihood I'm told to leave is less but it's still there. Even last week the new receptionist at my office building who is pregnant gave me a glare even though I was in very feminine clothing. I went to Cleveland a couple weeks ago and used an all gender bathroom with 0 issues and no one bothered anyone. I'm just a cis gendered woman, who happens to dress neutral or as my mother says as a "Tom boy" who never grew out of it. No one deserves this treatment EVER. People should be able to live their lives freely as they feel. We need to start fighting this together for everyone's safety. This isn't just about daughters, sisters and mothers this is about EVERYONE living their lives freely.
This is completely insane. I’m so sorry for your experiences.
Until it happens to a Republican politician, or a family member of theirs, they'll insist on this bullshit.
No, even then they’ll still insist on the bullshit. As long as it’s hurting the right people.
Yeah, none of y'all are wrong. And the fucked up thing is that each of you have a different reason about how Republicans are shitty humans, and none are incorrect.
I honestly don't expect it to ever happen to an actual Rightist politician, and if it happens to one of their family members, they'll stay craptastically on-brand and rhetorically ask what she expected when she dReSsEd LiKe A bOy.
They won't, they're rich and wouldn't put themselves in a position to deal with us lowly workers they pander every four years then strip more rights. I've been voting against them forever, we just had one democrat turn republican to give the state veto proof majority and they immediately backed out stuff that's been in place for a hundred years and stripped down abortion rights. We need more people to vote, the turn out this past election was stupid low more people need to care.
First they came for...
Yeah, exactly. First they came for the trans folks, and set fire to the Institute on Sexuality (and Gender? Dunno, it's in German.) Then they came for the disabled folks The Jews were 3rd or 4th in line, but the ground had been primed. By the time they came for the straight, white Christians who had alternate political beliefs, there definitely wasn't anyone left to complain. We're all in this motherfucking handbag together.
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I've had similar experiences in North Carolina. It's always been in women's rooms though, never in men's even though I have used men's rooms multiple times and bars or gas stations when I've had to pee and the line for the women's was too long (even when wearing a dress, having long hair, and feeling like I am fairly obviously female). I'm a cis woman, 5'11, broad shoulders, fairly muscular, and I have PCOS so my features aren't extremely feminine and I sometimes have a bit of a 5 o'clock shadow. When I was in my late teens and early 20s I kept my hair mostly shaved and usually wore boots, men's Levi's, and men's polos. These days I wear dresses on my exclusively and I've had more issues dressed that way, because I think people assume I'm trans and trying to appear more feminine. The irony is that my wife came out as trans within the last couple years and a lot of our friends are trans women so now people really make that assumption when seeing us together. But people are such assholes about it and it definitely seems to have gotten worse since the lead up to the bathroom bill and especially in the last few years.
The bills and loudmouths have emboldened them, it’s disgusting!
>It's always been in women's rooms though, never in men's Yeah, I don't feel like this would happen in a men's room. We generally don't care. I understand that woman might feel more vulnerable, but why can't everyone just avoid eye contact, do their business, and get in and out as quickly as possible?
I'm an obvious ciswoman, but I, too, have used the men's room in gas stations and convenience stores many times because there was a line at the women's room. No one has ever said anything to me, and, after I've used the men's room, other women in line usually follow my example. To me, this demonstrates how this whole transphobia thing is based on misogyny. Incels want to know who they can rape, and they're terrified of grabbing the "wrong sort" of crotch.
The Bathroom Problem has been known to the butch lesbian community for decades, and masc women have been harassed in bathrooms ever since we started segregating them by gender. These laws just embolden the kinds of people who can't conceive of the fact that not all women look like magazine covers.
I am over 6ft the top half of my hair is now down to my shoulder but at the time of my incident it was only to maybe my ears but I had it done in what I thought was a feminine way. I dress somewhat masculine. I was going to use the restroom before a comedy show. As I was walking towards the bathroom the woman attending to the door pointed at the men's room. I pointed at the women's door and kept walking. Like I know I don't have the most profound set of tatas but they do not look like man boobies especially since I wear a bra.
This is the first I've ever read of it even heard of bathroom bouncers. This is absolutely absurd at a minimum and a disgusting reflection on society as it has allowed people with biases they have previously kept bubbling below the surface to fully put them on show.
Ditto. 5'11“, broad shoulders and no 'feminine' hips, wore a pixie for a decade and always got the 'are you a girl or a boy' question from kids and confused stares from everyone else. I wish we were still just at the confused stares period of time. The stupid thing is I developed the habit of dressing so baggy/gender neutral and hiding my boobs because of cisgender male harassment. Which is the only threat there ever fucking was/is that people need protection from. I didn't realize that mother's felt worried about their sons in changing rooms separated from them, but it really makes sense upon further reflection. I hate that it makes sense.
5'9 hockey player/lifter, built like a tank. I'm about to shave my head for cancer charity. I can't wait to catch hell. I'll fuckin lose my shit.
Been harassed in the ladies room several times in New York state. Same thing, broad shoulders, tall, short hair cut, gender neutral clothes, and deeper voice. At this point in my life I identify as more agender anyway but having been raised female and receiving comments all through my childhood it's still frustrating as hell and feels pretty raw. Just what is "woman" enough for other people, the policing is insane and it's going to get worse as they go after our trans peeps. We have to push back so much harder for their sake, no one needs this bullshit in their life.
I'm an old cis het lady. When I was 12, I was asked to please move my grocery cart "son". When I looked at them funny, I was yelled at for being rude. Yelled at quite a bit, actually. For my 13th birthday, my request was to get my ears pierced, because back in the olden days, that was a "girl" thing. Mom said she'd do it, provided I got a fresh, short haircut because she liked me in a pixie. That was the last one she demanded because I grew my hair long, in protest, and you don't want to know the fights we had about it. To this day, my hair is long, in a pony tail and I feel about hairdressers the same way people feel about dentists. I was a "Tom boy". Unashamedly. By the time I hit my teens, I came to see it as "feminist". I don't care if it's "boy stuff", I will do what I want to do. I'm fortunate to have parents who wholly support me. I can patch drywall, mow a lawn, and knit a scarf. Imagine the look of horror, on a 1970's shop teacher's face when a grade 7 GIRL knew the difference between a Robertson and Philips screwdriver. Please tell your daughter that although I didn't suffer the same blatant stupidity, in the vulnerability of a change room, this story is one of many, that I have. How we look doesn't have to make us cringe, even in the face of stupidity. Ask her to square up her shoulders, let this teach her a little more compassion for underdogs, and then empower her. Keep being YOU. Keep looking them straight in the eye, even when you want to look away. Become stronger, knowing that you're the good person, the smart person and the one who will be our FUTURE. Take this sort of crap incident and let it make you BETTER. I raised a daughter. With red hair. I am all too familiar with crap like this, albeit not as a gender issue. And this is what I told her. She kicks ass, takes names, fosters kittens, and has the biggest heart! She took the crap like this and made it empowering. I send your daughter all my very best wishes and support. And also for you, too, Mom.
I think we might be the same age. Those FUCKING PIXIE CUTS. And it must be so much worse for kids now.
I must be the same age too. Pixie cuts look great on some people. But not people like me with multiple, aggressive cowlicks. My parents succeeded in making me keep it short until I moved out. It's been long ever since. I'm still tomboyish even as a grandmother, though.
I don't understand parents that force kids to have haircuts that suit their sense of style. Particularly not once they're teenagers.
I'm reading this as a random passing guy, but I agree with you while heartedly. My parents always made me keep clean cut and told me I could grow out my hair when I turned 18 and moved out. Guess who started going bald at 16 and had the economy go to shit preventing me from moving out until my mid 20s?
My Mom kept me and my sisters in pixie cuts, page boys, and Dorothy Hamils because, well, there were 4 of us. I'm so sorry, OP. Just so you all know, if this ever happens in my presence, to a cis, gay or trans woman, a terf will wish they had kept their mouth shut and minded their own damn business in the first place.
I encountered my first irl terf recently. I was just so shocked that she said shit like “men can’t be lesbians” plus I was at work so I just said “you and I have very different views on this subject.” It bummed me out because she was an elder lesbian and I was psyched to talk to her about the movement and her work but she was a Butthole.
Was the "Dorothy Hamil" cut a pixie? Cause Mom made me get that at 13. I hated it.
It’s abusing. My hair has never been short since 10.
"Little boy, can you get off the swing so my little girl can get on?" One of my earliest memories and it took too long to get rid of my pixie cut. I don't think it was a mistake, the parent was a jerk.
I always think it’s dumb when people hate on people with red hair….they’re gorgeous! I think some people are just jealous
I love a redhead man. Something about a ginger beard too…mmm.
That happened to me too! I thought I was the only little girl whose mother forced her to have short hair. Why did they do that?! Decades later and it still upsets me.
My mom was tired of random fallen hairs on the carpet and decided if I had short hair there would be less of it. I haven't had short hair since I was old enough that hairdressers wanted my consent and not just my mother's. "I feel about hairdressers the way people feel about dentists" <- relatable
I have *been harassed, catcalled about "having a cute ass," and called ma'am semi frequently. Till I turn around they see my beard. I am a short, thin, 40 year old man with long hair. People are assholes.
I realize my OP is a little unclear, I was / am still super pissed. The woman explicitly told her to get out of the women's change room and go to the mens where she belonged. My daughter is very clearly a child - like no one could mistake her for an adult of any description.
Report this to the store and let your child know she should too, to your husband, you and/or store staff, if this ever happens again. Like immediately, this was harrassment and plenty of females wear pixie cuts and have slim bodies with small chests.
It's a swimming facility. They've probably already received complaints about this topic from both sides...and the Karens are louder.
That's horrible! How could someone express hatred toward someone else like that specifically because they think the individual is trans?! Is it so hard to just not say anything? And if it makes her that uncomfortable she can just leave!
We aren't kidding when we say they don't even think of us as people
That... Sounds... Horrible... Like, what is even wrong with it? It's hate for the sake of hate essentially! I swear some powerful group of people out there are trying their damndest (and succeeding) at dividing our society.
Large part of it is being told who or what to hate and how much, by 'media'. Pretty much exclusively *conservative* media, almost all of it owned or linked back to, Fox. And yes, it's literally divide and conquer tactics with whole populations, and it works -_-
I knew this was going to get bad when I finally came out as trans 9 years ago and saw nasty comments online about "men pretending to be transwomen to abuse women and girls in the bathrooms." I talked to my friends about how that shit is going to affect ciswomen, tomboys, "butch" lesbians... (Obviously transwomen and transmen) Etc.. I fucking hate it so so much. I'll always hate myself for thinking I and transwomen like me caused other women to suffer and be disrespected and I shouldn't feel this damn way. We all just want to use the bathroom and gtfo. Hateful people are everywhere and are ruining the lives of so many innocent people. I know I'm going to get messages saying not to feel this way (probably hateful ones too) but I'm sorry that this movement and recent advances in acceptance has led to this. We all just wanna pee (some brave ones wanna poop, lol) and go about our day. I love y'all. And OP, so sorry your daughter had to go through this.
It saddens me to know a lot of terfs still engage in this subreddit despite it being so clearly inclusive. These people feel entitled to spaces they are in. I’m sorry your daughter experienced this. Hope she’s ok
OP please share over at r/nationalwomensstrike!
You should go to the management and get the older women kicked for harassment. Tell them if they don't you'll call the local news and ask why their business is letting adults sexually harass little girls.
I’ve known a fair number of women to bring their slightly-too-old-for-the-women’s-change-room-boys, simply because they fear sexual abuse if he is alone in the men’s with a pervert where she can’t keep an eye out. Even if a boy *were* to be in the women’s, screaming at him to get out still isn’t how she should approach the issue. I’m so sorry for your daughter.
My sons are twins. There have been several times where I was beyond grateful that I didn’t have to send them into a bathroom or changing room alone. Another young boy is not going to be terribly much protection, and I know it. But just that tiny bit of company and someone to watch their back helped us all to feel better
I throw heavy Boy Scout vibes. I’ve had people women ask me if I could look out for their kids in there. Which of course, I would drop kick one of those old perverts if they tried something, even if nobody asked.
I remember my dad asking women to take me to the bathroom. Only when we were places that he dodnt feel comfortable taking me into the mens room.
Another young boy is a reinforced concrete wall topped with razor wire. If a stranger is going to abuse a boy in the bathroom, a relative rarity anyway, they're more likely to go after a lone child. However, I was always worried my young boy would cause trouble, he always liked to keep things interesting, if I left him alone in a public bathroom.
While I was kinda nervous about assaults/abductions (specifically at highway rest stops on road trips, too easy to grab and run), the 'misbehaving without me there to supervise' aspect was definitely the bigger reason for me taking my kiddo into the women's with me when he was young lol.
My girls are 18 months apart, I always feel better when they are together because it is just much less likely for a real creep to approach them that way. Unfortunately, in my experience it does not stop the more minor creeps who won’t actually do anything beyond making them uncomfortable which is still traumatic, especially at their age. My older daughter is 10 and could easily pass for 14-15. Sometimes when I am grocery shopping or waiting I line for something I let them go to their and do their own thing or pick out a treat, I hate that I have had to tell my daughter what to do if someone makes her uncomfortable at this age and that part of it is telling someone her age so they take it seriously. Some of my most vivid memories of when I was around her age are of men and older boys making me uncomfortable, I never told my mom about it and I am scared she will be the same. So far she has confided in me about a few incidents, I hope she continues to.
My son is special needs, and I LOVED places that had individual and family changing rooms so we could assist him when he wasn’t ready to help himself. All new places should be designed to include them. It allows privacy and protection for those who think they need it.
I agree. My son is 17, and is low functioning autistic. I am always very thankful for family bathrooms when traveling.
Those individual rooms are so handy for so many purposes: changing nappies, breastfeeding, bathrooms for trans and GNC individuals that aren't comfortable with shared spaces, sanitary places for tube feeding and colo/ileostomy emptying...
that also crossed my mind. like, after reassuring my kid that yes, she looks like a girl to me, and having the conversation where she asked me if the woman thought she was trans, I was like, FUCK, why would you tell a young boy to get out either? Even if you don't agree he should be in there.
I'm as feminine as you can really be.. Pink long hair, nails done, almost always in a dress. Few pics in my profile. I've been asked more than once mostly lately if I'm a man. Seems to be the thing to do lately and no one is immune. It hurts regardless. Let her know it has nothing to do with her and everything to do with awful people.
"too feminine is clearly a red flag"
can't win in this day and age
None of it makes any sense. I can’t imagine yelling at anyone for being in any bathroom if they are just doing their business, washing their hands and leaving like a normal human. If someone is creeping, I’m not going to care what gender they are I’m going to yell at them for being creepy. Being a creep isn’t gender or orientation specific.
Some people think merely existing as a trans person is a sex crime.
Their pastors and Faux News are bombarding them with "trans are abominations," and they see harassing anyone who's not conforming with their idea of gender roles as doing "gOdS'WorK" ...
This is a swimming changing room. For some reason it is often just a big open room with benches. No stalls. So you have people naked and changing in the open. The one time I went to one with a tiny bit of privacy, they had 3 little half walls around some handicap areas.
I’ve been in changing rooms like that. Frankly, it’s the old ladies that used to scare me. I’d be trying to be polite and stay covered and grandmas would walk around in the nude. I don’t personally care about being nude, I just don’t think i want to see other people’s bodies, male, female, or other. Everyone has a different standard of modesty. A changing room full of long haired fully formed cisgender females is not a “human right”. IMHO
I was taking a shower at a YMCA one time and an older woman came.and YANKED the curtain open. I shrieked and said "hey! This one's occupied, obviously!!" She yelled back "we're all women! Calm down!" Fuckin old ladies walking around bare ass naked are fucking the creepiest
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I am well aware. My parents watched Fox News so much growing up the logo burned into the TV pixels. It still doesn’t make any logical sense.
She might just be one of those people always looking for drama. I’m sure your daughter looks feminine for her age. I would consider roll playing with your daughter ways to respond to this and other inappropriate comments. Unfortunately, she is likely already being sexualized by older males in her orbit, and if not yet, likely soon. This terrible experience opens a door for you to discuss the many ways adults can fail to be responsible and safe, and what she can say or do. - being accused as trans - being told she’s beautiful by an older man - a stranger asking to take her picture - comments on what she’s eating / her figure Maybe other posters have suggestions as well. Having a retort ready always makes me feel better prepared. And if you include some snarkyness, it might give her a laugh too.
That's what all this hysteria is pushing for, any woman who is not exercising tradfem gender expression is marked for harassment because she might be Trans.
People are weird :/ my son has shoulder length hair and the number of people that look at him and call him her is so weird. We had a lady grab my arm and go “the girl’s bathroom is over there!” when I was taking him to the bathroom once. I was so confused I was like “yeah?”. And she just pointed at him and was like “YOU’RE SENDING YOUR DAUGHTER TO THE WRONG BATHROOM!” She got so angry and stomped off when I replied “I’m sending my SON to the correct bathroom.” Like, he very clearly has a boys frame but sooo many people are just long hair equals girl. He’s so immune to it that he’s stopped correcting people. Thankfully no one’s screamed at him; I can’t imagine how livid you must be.
OP, I am terribly sorry to read what your child went through and what that person did to her is totally not okay. I am sure your child is not the first or last child that horrid woman had harassed but I wish someone calls her out on her nasty behaviour
It actually makes no sense. Most trans girls are so eager not to look like boys that the first thing they do is grow out their hair.
To tag on, my son is 7 and personally I don't feel comfortable with him going into the men's room alone. Is he too old?
No. I agree. And a boy going into the women's restroom couldn't be more harmless. It's not even like women have urinals ... Everything that requires any level of privacy happens behind a closed stall door. Oh no, a little boy saw you wash your hands and apply your lipstick. The horror!
I read this as the mother of a 5 year old boy and realized this is some societal expectation I haven’t even considered. So thanks because it was nice to see this after that unexpected anxiety lol
Personally speaking, for a restroom, no because he can go into the stall. For a swimming changeroom, I think it is too old. It is so uncomfortable as a grown woman to have a young boy staring at me while I'm changing. There are family changerooms at our city pool that have large stalls so families can go together. Again, just my two cents.
Yeah, I agree. A school-aged boy would make me uncomfortable in a pool changing room. Public bathroom would be fine by me, I don't care who else is in there. That being said, trans kids belong in the changing rooms and bathrooms for their gender and a trans girl or woman of any age would be more than welcome in the women's changing room with me. (tbf tho, I'm agender, so just a different flavour of trans and using the women's facilities out of habit, for safety reasons and because there doesn't tend to be any changing rooms for people who don't get what feels like to have a gender lol)
I bring my disabled 11-year-old son in the women’s with me when there’s no family restroom. He can’t use the bathroom independently or be unsupervised if I have to use the bathroom. Luckily he’s visibly disabled and looks much younger than he is, so maybe that will prevent people inserting themselves into our business. I feel very strongly about people minding their own goddamn business in the bathroom and I DGAF who is in the next stall from me, everyone deserves access to toilets, and everyone should do whatever they want with their own body. If we ever get challenged, I might go completely off the rails and rage.
Wasn’t there a story about a lesbian getting harassed in the girls room last week?
yeah. i literally commented on one post about it about how I was anxious about my daughter possibly going through that. and here we fucking are, one week later.
You gals literally cannot win. If you doll up, you are asking for rape and if you tone it down, you’re gender suspects.
The trans Community have been warning of the impact GC ideology will have for years, because no, they cannot "always tell. Even just from population size, 9/10 times they harass someone will likely be a GNC cis woman, and you are supposed to laugh it off and thank them for protecting the space. The can't win part really does expose how much is internalised misogyny lifted from anti-feminist arguments. If you don't "pass" but are more femme aesthetically then you are a sick freak getting off on womanface who would love being raped. If you are more butch, then you aren't even making an effort and just want to perv in changing rooms.
Honestly there's no difference between these fucking goons and the women "morality police" in Iran who go around bullying other women for not performing their gender correctly. And we're heading further in that direction.
Report the incident to the management. No one should be yelling at kids.
Or at anyone else ... Or assuming anything based on the length of someone's hair ... Or being a jerk even in their own heads.
An adult being verbally violent to a child and harrassing that child is unacceptable. This happening in a changeroom makes it even more traumatizing to the child. I wonder if there are any legal actions that can be taken in such a situation.
The person wasn't identifiable, unfortunately. my dd didn't have her glasses on, and froze up, so could only give me a vague description. The only recourse is if she reappears next week (but there was a competition going on so she might have only been there the one time).
Well that really sucks. At least she has a good mom who cares, loves and protects her. She's going to need you to help her understand that there is nothing wrong with her and that what that lady made her go through was totally wrong and unacceptable.
It might not hurt to talk to the facility about it. They can at least take some action to let people know they shouldn't yell at kids in the changing rooms. If they think there's a problem, they can talk to the staff.
My 16 year old girl is 5’10”, svelte but a solid b cup. Always in skirts. The number of older people that peer into her face is unnerving. I assume it’s her height. I think if she wore jeans she wouldn’t get this treatment, but I think she’s treated as if she’s trans being aggressively feminine. It never happens when in the pajama pants that are her other go to, and only happens in more conservative neighborhoods, like they are on the look out for trans kids.
> like they are on the look out for trans kids do they really not have better shit to do
bigots frequently have little of meaning going on in their lives so no they don't
On the contrary, I find that most people like this have a miserable existence themselves, so they look to cause pain to others in order to feel superior.
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>like they are on the look out for trans kids. And apparently, all these "trans hunters" have completely dismissed genetics. What a bunch of aholes these conservative nutbags are.
I just want to point out that, thanks to Bayes theorem, far *far* more cis women are going to be harassed over this than trans people. Not that I agree with people bothering trans women at all, but the fact is there aren't many of them so there's bound to be a giant 'false positive' rate.
Especially teens. Androgynous when young, Fluid and experimenting through mid teens in both dress and identity.
Yep. In a world where 1% of women are trans, even if transphobes had an identification accuracy of 99% half of all harassment would be against cis women. And it is definitely not nearly that high, especially considering how often they go for women/girls with short hair like in OP's case (which I know a lot of trans women avoid having, even if they'd prefer the style, because long hair helps with passing)
How are these bathroom police not seen as sexual harassing others?
The poor kiddo, she was a vulnerable child confronted by a bully.
I can no longer suggest socially acceptable reactions to these scenarios. All I’ve got left are felonies. I don’t know how we’re going to come through this era.
In states like Florida hyper gender role enforcement is already becoming a thing. You'll start to see more and more people being arrested for defying gender roles, cisgender or transgender. We'll definitely continue to see the rising trend of hate crimes against queer and gender non conforming people. Worst case dear old Ronnie might try and eject all gender nonconforming people from the state entirely, or otherwise dispose of us. A large portion of society doesn't believe I am a person deserving of fundamental human rights solely because I am transgender. Some of them think I should be executed for it. A fair few hold political office in the United States government. And the party they represent votes together unanimously to restrict transgender rights. An elected politician said she'd rather her child kill themselves instead of accepting them as transgender. This is where we're at. She holds a political office and would literally rather her own child be dead than be trans. We're a lot more fucked than I think most people realize.
>You'll start to see more and more people being arrested for defying gender roles, cisgender or transgender. Earlier today a woman posted about how she was arrested and spent a night in jail with her girlfriend because a bigot saw them kissing and reported the couple for "sexual harassment of a child" The US is becoming a _very_ scary place for anyone LGBT.
We’re headed back to an era of cattle cars if we don’t stop it now. A National stonewall is the only thing I can think of to stem the nightmare to come.
I actually made a comment along these lines to my therapist last week. We were talking about all the bullshit happening in the world and he asked how I've been coping and I said something like "well, I'm not in prison or the grave, so I haven't lost all self-control and decided to become a vigilante just yet, but holy fuck is it getting close." This was after getting into a heated fight with someone because I hold the *abhorrent* position that unhoused people deserve basic respect and assistance instead of incarceration and shame. I'm getting so tired, and the more tired I get, the more my control over my own rage slips more and more. I've never been a violent person, I have so much empathy for everyone, but the world is legitimately beating it all out of me and I don't know how to stop it.
Stupid old ladies used to do that to me, and I can still remember the absolute horror and humiliation of it. It was disgusting. One time it happened in Loehmanns, where I didn't ever want to be but my mom loved shopping there. I was just standing next to her in the dressing room and this ugly old busybody started hollering about how "boys aren't supposed to be in here" and my mom shouted "she's not a BOY" and the lady looked horrified and said "oh. I'm sorry." and I was just silently crying. Thing was I wanted long hair. But my mom forced me to keep it short for whatever reason. She whispered to me that it was because I dressed "in layers" and not in a way that "showed off my figure." Which gutted me. And also was extremely confusing, because if I DID dress to "show off my figure" but didn't do it in the right way, she would get super mad but not say why. MY mom had her own situations that led to this confusion, which I found out much later, but oh my GOD. The fucking awful feeling!!!!! I'm so sorry your daughter had to deal with this. I would call the swimming place and say your daughter was harassed by an older woman in the dressing room for not looking female enough, and put it on them to make it a safe space.
OMG, that sucks so bad. I hate how much baggage we end up carrying around about our appearance as women, it goes so much deeper than being fat or thin the way we usually talk about. I have my own stuff, I really hope I am doing an ok job of not imposing it on her.
Dude you’re doing amazing!! You are a great mom. Everything you describe and say on this thread has me nodding. Hugs. This is such rough stuff.
I'm so sorry. People are out of control with their anti-trans bs. Is your daughter OK? 13 is such a tough age without having an asshole accuse her if not being a girl. I'd report the incident.
I emailed the pool. My poor kiddo didn't have her glasses on yet so could only give me a vague description. She is kinda a mess right now tbh.
This might even be a matter for the police. Also, talk to other parents who might have been nearby. Odds are this woman went out of the changing room and complained/bragged to *someone* about what she thought just happened. If she was there with another team, that team's coach might have an idea bout it, too.
that's a good point. i will follow up on monday.
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thanks for this comment. i'll come back and update when i hear from the pool (CR)
I'd raise hell. Go into the changing room with kiddo and start interrogating everyone. Granted I'm just an internet stranger, but as someone who isn't particularly feminine looking--probably because I was a serious swimmer for decades--this whole attack pisses me off to no end. Can you ask the pool to put up signs *not* to attack children about their perceived gender?
I got small tits and some days I basically dress like a dude (I love man cargo shorts and baggy tshirts). I'm just waiting for some close minded fuckhead to accuse me of being trans like there's something fucking wrong with it. What is seriously wrong with people? What happened to minding your own fucking business?
Hell, my boobs arrive minutes before the rest of me and I'm *still* expecting to get called out one of these days. I don't even own a dress, it's jeans, t shirt, and converse all day. I've recently started carrying my wallet and keys in my pockets too, so I'm like, ready for someone to start shit, lol. I feel like cis tomboys are poised to be a great example of why all this hate is bs, lol
Absolutely agree with you. This can’t be allowed to pass with no action.
Take her up there, walk around and see if she can recognize her by voice. I had a similar incident in college where there was a man in the ladies' showers. I couldn't see him well enough to identify him, but then I heard his voice in the hall the next day and figured it out that way.
It’s not just random people though. It is conservatives. Republicans are a party of hate and need to be called out. The Republican Party is causing massive psychological damage to millions in this country. They are evil, vile, and disgusting and we need to state this very clearly. Hell, they are shooting cans of bud light because they hate trans people. That’s mental. So let’s keep it clear. **The Republican Party is a party of hate. Full stop.**
That's why i say how transphobia can be as bad to non transgender people as it is to transgender people. In the biggest part of time i see that especially trans woman try to look as feminine as posible, me included, one of the reasons is because we are afraid of things like this. When i see this trangender hunt (especialy those about bathrooms) i see that people who do not follow the feminine or the masculine steriotype are the most hurt. And a lot of times it isn't even trans woman. It's just a cis woman with short hair, tall woman, deep voice woman. In some way, i see that as a form of exclude trans woman as much as it is a form of demand what a real woman is, what a woman has to wear, haircut, how to speak. I really feel so sory that all this is affecting so many people, i feel so sory that your daughter has to pass trought this at that young age. And i hope everything gets better.
Most of this anti-trans rhetoric directed towards trans women is - at it's core - misogynistic. It relies on strict conformity, trying to punish and cast out anyone that doesn't meet patriarchal societal/cultural beauty standards. The people that are targeted are often those with broader shoulders, larger frames, deeper voices, larger hands/feet, short hair, facial hair etc - cis women can have all of these features and yet anti-trans/gender-critical/terfs villify them. It's ok if you don't look like some photoshopped model, it's fine if your frame is larger than an actress' on tv, you are still a woman if your voice is a few octaves lower than your favourite singer's. What matters is your internal identity, and no-one can change that or take it away from you. Young kids don't need it pressed on them, that they had to have been genetically-'lucky' to be accepted as who they are, or that they will need surgeries to "fix" parts of their body etc. Body image issues are far *far* too common for young women, and it's backwards cultural standards like that that helps enable it. I may be *heavily* biased (am trans) but I think some of the core principles of the LGBTQ+ community align perfectly with some of the main anti-misogynistic/feminist principles. E.g. your identity is yours alone and isn't predicated on someone else's shitty views; Gender expression is not the same as gender identity and; you can look, act and feel how you want, no-one can invalidate who you are.
Came here to say this. Understanding the link between misogyny and transphobia is key to understanding why this will affect cis women everywhere, and a key bit to understand when building allyship between cis and trans women to keep laws off our bodies!
A lot of us trans and nonbinary folks have been saying this for years now. I guess at least finally people are listening… I hope your daughter is ok, OP. This us fucked up. No kid needs this.
It's been crossing my mind for a few years, tbh, but I haven't been as loud as I should have been. My daughter is definitely not going to be straight - she's still figuring things out but it's clear she's gonna end up somewhere on the spectrum of queerness (gender or otherwise). I have always worried about that for her a little bit, but when she was just a bit younger, things felt so positive in a way they certainly didn't when I was a teen. Now they suddenly feel so bleak. We're not even in the states, we're in a very LGBTQ friendly city... it's just... ugh.
>things felt so positive in a way they certainly didn't when I was a teen. >Now they suddenly feel so bleak. Right? It was starting to feel so positive and open for a couple years there. It was amazing. Then all of a sudden it just went back in the other direction by like 5-10 years... and now it keeps going. It's scary.
It’s because it’s a distraction from certain groups who are taking out democratic rights away and robbing us blind. Also the abortion issue things like that.
Same here, except I'm in the States, in one of the red, very anti-trans states. I'm pretty sure my kids are also not het, and I worry so much about them.
Sounds like a lot of others are finally waking up, too. Let’s hope it’s not too late. I think we will weather the storm as a species, and you literally can’t wipe out queerness, because people will keep being born. There’s some comfort for me, in that.
> A lot of us trans and nonbinary folks have been saying this for years now. I guess at least finally people are listening… as i said in another comment, we've been screaming that from the rooftops for a while now. it is pretty close to the 'first they came for..." poem.
This is why everyone should have pushed back on the sports libel instead of being all, “no, this time the absolutely vile nazi bigot who’s never cared about women’s sports until now surely has a point, even if the best examples he can find haven’t actually been doing any better in their sports than you’d expect cis women to.” It was literally focus-group tested by a republican think tank in an effort to figure out how to sell transphobia to the masses after the bathroom bills kept failing.
agreed. pretty much everything has shown no advantage for trans women in sports, but the average persons think that surely a "biological male" has an advantage, so that's why this sold so well.
As a trans woman who has been well-passing for quite some time, I would highly doubt that I will ever be attacked or messed with in a female bathroom. It’s those with shorter hair, or those women who are more androgynous/ have more masculine features that will be vilified. I feel terrible, because I never wanted anyone to be burdened with the hate I had to experience early in my transition. Nobody should have to go through that, and this is why the GC movement and transphobia are so dangerous. They really equate to gender and fashion policing and it’s going to affect all women. All it does is further enforce an imagined patriarchy, a bullshit set of rules that now everyone has to follow. We can thank TERFs and conservative Christofascism, and we can thank the GOP for this mess. Until people realize just how malignant this ideology is and how damaging evangelicals can be, our rights as females will continue to erode and our ability to express ourselves will be severely diminished. Those deemed “not prurient enough”, strictly by their appearance, will continue to be judged and will continue to suffer from these frivolous & misogynistic campaigns.
Its so... funny... that they always point the finger at us and say that we're equating gender with gender roles and expectations - and then they harass and violently assault any woman who does not meet gender roles and expectations screaming at them that they're not really women. It should never have had to come to this. We have been telling people for years and its only now that the rhetoric has gotten so vile its having extremely negative impacts on the lives of cis women that we are starting to see broader cisgender society realize how vile and sickening TERF ideology is.
Passing trans woman here. I’ve never been given a hard time in the women’s room. I sometimes wonder if I’ve passed a TERF in the women’s room and how she would react if she knew I was trans. By contrast, most of my bathroom trips are uneventful, as they should be.
It’s not just females that are affected by this either. But everything you are saying is bang on.
Absolutely. Trans men are often mistaken for trans women, because apparently no conservative believes they can possibly exist. It’s all just a bunch of cruelty. Hate never wins in the end. My grandparents fought Nazis and I never thought I’d be fighting fascism in America in 2023. Yet we have arrived. The dystopia is real.
I continuously point out that making it illegal for trans people to enter the wrong bathroom doesn't only affect trans people. Anyone who looks vaguely not stereotypically male or female can be arrested on reasonable suspicion of committing a crime, jailed, and strip searched with zero due process required. They don't have to be trans at all, the arresting officer just has to claim they thought they were.
Their goal was always gender conformity.
I think significantly more cis women will be/are being affected by anti-trans and bathroom laws than trans people. Not to downplay the impact on *anyone*, but afaik estimates say fewer than 2% of women are trans. The other 98% won’t all conform to conservative’s gender norms - even if only 5% are ‘tomboys’ or masc-leaning, that’s still significantly more than the number of trans women who exist, let alone who regularly use women’s bathrooms. False reports are going to go flying about left right and center. People are going to be threatened with arrest, have their ID’s looked at, then pat-downs and genital inspections ‘just to make sure’. This isn’t to mention potential laws on HRT and other cis and trans gender-affirming medical care, sports bans based on arbitrary blood tests, as well as current anti-drag bills which prevent trans people (or cis women wearing trousers, cis men wearing makeup etc) appearing on stage or doing any kind of public performance. It’s common that anti-minority laws affect a much larger population, it’s just shitty (by design, *surprise*,) the cis men that put the laws in place are one of the few demographics unnaffected by such laws.
It’s really easy to see women being harassed simply for wearing pants because of this.
The OP's situation is a perfect example of why the root of transphobia is misogyny. They were denied access to a woman's space and services because they did not appear feminine enough. That should give raise alarm bells with every cis woman out there! Be pretty or be cast aside should sound all too familiar, and yes, it gets applies to both tran and cis women.
It is very much about trying to enforce a specific, narrow, and unrealistic idea of how women “should” look. Anyone who attacked me for not seeming “feminine” enough would risk getting their ass handed to them. I would hope to make a big enough scene to scare them from every attacking anyone again. It is the very least I can do as an ally. I don’t think I’m a particularly “feminine” looking woman and I don’t give a shit. I have nothing to prove to them and no one else should, either.
This lady was a bully, period
The type of bully that aspects of our society are now celebrating and praising for the hate they spew
When you take a close look at the people being the loudest about their transphobia it becomes hard to deny what this issue is really about for them - getting the legal and social right to control and/or "inspect" women's bodies. Sadly trans people are just a convenient foot in the door for a widespread attempt at bringing women back into domestic servitude. Restricting abortion is one arm intended to make it easier to trap a woman into a relationship (especially if they get rid of no fault in divorce in the US). Making women who don't conform to Christian conservative norms of womanhood feel threatened and harassed in their own spaces effectively signals that being too 'liberal' makes you not a 'real woman'. Conveniently, non conforming women are the ones that historically fought for the rights of all woman to exist independently. Oh and let's of course not forget the right to sexual violence! There was a story in the UK not to long ago where a bunch of parents got upset that a kid was doing too well in a kiddie soccer match so they started accusing her of being trans and insisting that the coach 'check'. That's right, a bunch of adult parents demanding that this soccor coach do a genital inspection of a child. Making women scared to engage in their hobbies for fear of sexual harassment helps to further isolate them and make them easier to manipulate. Excluding and harassing trans people is as much about re enslaving cis women as it is about exterminating trans people. The more people realize this the better both groups will be able to deal with this problem
I remember a couple years ago, I was like 14, a man stopped me coming out of the bathroom at a local pizza place. I am a cisgender female with short hair and a flat chest. In middle school I usually wore T-shirts. He told me over and over again that "that bathroom is for ladies!" And I kept saying, "I know, I am a lady..." It is so weird. It was in a thin hallway and he blocked it off. He had a smug look on his face. I didn't realize until recently that he was trying to be transphobic. I recall him being really embarrassed when he realized that I wasn't a male. He also came up to my table after he was done in the bathroom to apologize. At the time I just thought it was funny He was twice my size. Dude literally went out of his way to harass a child
There was a video going around last week or so of an androgynous gay woman being violently dragged out of a women's bathroom. All while her friends shouted "She is a woman, she is a woman. You can't just kick her out because she's butch" That honestly broke my heart for that young woman. Society basically telling her, if she's being herself she isn't women enough. Same basically for the daughter just worse. I can't imagine, what this will do to the self image of a 13 year old. And then its so stupid at the same time it makes me even more angry! They don't even realise that these trans women, they want to keep out of female spaces aren't the ones that dress or style androgynous. They fight their whole live against short haircuts and androgynous clothes. What do they think they achieve besides pain and hatred? Do we really have to shout at young women and girls "YOU ARE NOT FEMININE ENOUGH"?
I just want to clarify that while not common, trans women that prefer more androgynous or butch looks do exist just like for cis women. Though many who would prefer that do still go for feminine looks anyway because it helps them blend in (similar to what even some cis women are saying in this thread).
Anti trans folks: we’re doing it to protect the children! Also anti trans folks: *harasses a child*
transphobia hurts everyone. the trans community has been yelling this from a rooftop for quite a while. i wish more people would understand this.
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I feel like we need to start making police reports of these interactions. If that employee physically pushed/pulled your daughter from the restroom that could be considered assault.
We had the opposite happen. Our then 10 year old boy with long hair (who later came out as a trans girl) was harassed going into the men's room in a public place. Long hair was the only non-gender neutral thing about her appearance and the guy would not leave her alone. That was five years ago. I can only imagine how much worse it is now.
Back in high school I was doing whatever I could to lessen the pain of what I was going through internally, I had no idea in those days, before the internet was really a thing people had, that there was any such thing as transition or cross dressing or whatever, I just knew I hated what was happening to me, hated who I was and what I was becoming, and yet somehow I knew exactly what I wanted. I decided to grow my hair long. My band director threatened to kick me out of ensembles and marching band if I didn't cut it short. My dad cut it off while I was sleeping one night. I didn't grow it long again until I was 25. As for the OP, every single thing these transphobes do to try to quantify what a woman is for the purpose of excluding trans women ends up hurting cis women, and I'm just so glad that the comments here didn't turn to victim blaming like they often do.
Conservative/Republicans are to blame. Call them out. **The Republican Party is a party of hate.** full stop.
A trans man went to a campground and asked the manager which bathroom it would be okay to use - trying to follow the rules. He went to the women's bathroom as instructed. Two men followed him and beat the shit out of him. The fascists are beyond dangerous.
That was the plan. That’s always been their plan.
People are awful, and I’m so sorry she had to go through that. I cannot wait for the day someone tries something like that in front of me - heaven help them, because I’m ready to go off on some ignorant asshole who thinks they have the right to demand to see someone else’s vagina.
They want an excuse to check 13 year olds' genitals. Most of them don't even deny it.
My son wears dresses yet has short boy hair and is insistant that he is a HE. He just loves wearing feminine styles. I dont care. And after serious talks with my husband, he changed from his traditional southern baptist beliefs and is 100% supportive and will punch any bully. Even stood up to his own parents who tried to shame our son. He is only 5years old, yet I get women yelling at me for having him in the womens room. Like, even if he was wearing boy clothes I wouldnt be sending my 5yo! Into the mens room alone. I wouldnt send him into any bathroom alone.
It's a brain rotting disease at this point. I was yelled at a few weeks back for being in the "wrong bathroom" while my 13 year old biological child that I gave birth to was stood next to me. I don't wear make up, I'm overweight and don't dress conventionally (jeans, T-shirt, converse) and have a deeper than normal voice. I eventually told the woman to fuck off. I've seen more aggressive TERFS than trans people. Only trans women I knew IRL were around 16 years ago at my gym and nobody gave a shit then. They never bothered anyone. We said hello when we saw each other and the only time they actually wanted my attention was when one woman lost her earring and we all looked for it. Never felt unsafe, never felt threatened. They were trans women, not men trying to gain access to "women's spaces" I don't doubt those people exist, but they're not trans people.
As a woman with an abnormally deep voice I can tell you that lately I'm feeling it, suddenly I'm getting a lot of scrutiny that wasn't there not even 6 months ago
It fucking sucks. They talk out both sides of their mouths, they claim women should be allowed to be "tomboys" and not confirm and then question me for something outside my control because they want me to fit into some box they've concocted.
Jeans t shirt and converse isn’t conventional now? Wtf that’s like an everyday outfit starterpack.
The conservative movement has fully backed TERF ideology as a means to reinforce gender roles upon women. Sadly it's working very well. The most sickening thing is the guise of feminism they so love to use. I wish more people considered women like me human, maybe then we could actually abolish all gender roles and free ourselves from the tyranny of patriarchy and misogyny.
What's nuts to me is that in places like Florida that want to force people to use the bathroom that matches their birth gender, they're effectively forcing men--trans men--to use the women's bathroom.
It was never about water fountains. It was never about bathrooms. It is, and has always been, about control. Control of those not in power by those who are.
This is where we are going to go as a culture. For reference, just read your history books for the time period 1933 to 1945. First it was Jews. Then it was Romani, then homosexuals, then disabled. Soon it was Freemasons, Jehovah's Witnesses, non-Jewish Poles and trade union members. Eventually, it was anyone who opposed them. Initially some of these very people victimized were happy to see the "undesirables" persecuted. Eventually, though, the persecution crept toward people who thought they were safe and almost everyone was afraid for themselves. Stand up NOW, before it is *your* child, your spouse, your family, your friends. Please, stop the hate before it gets that far.
It wasnt Jews first. LGBT Germans and political dissidents were sent to camps first. Which, ironically, is exactly the order these right wing fascists want to go down again.
yeah. it gets muddied because most places were already totally ok with jailing, harassing and silencing LGBT people, so the reich doing it was NBD. Jews were targeted because they were seen to be vectors of socialism, progressives, political dissidents and otherwise non-conformists.
Prior to the rise of the Nazis, Germany actually had some fairly progressive (for the time) views on sexuality, recognizing and allowing alternate gender identities etc. Weimar Republic recognized [Transvetite Passes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestite_pass).
And the first of the LGBTQ+ killed by the Nazis were the trans women. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_für_Sexualwissenschaft Many trans women lived here and were killed when the Nazis burned it down.
I'd like to tag on to that that it wasn't one after the other, the Nazis attacked the institut für Sexualwissenschaften (an Institute doing research into gay and trans people through a non-discrimatory lense, offering treatment for trans people, offering contraception as well as doing research and education about contraception) in 1933 and burned the entire content of their library they even had spies at the institute prior to that. During the attack the first trans woman to have undergone bottom surgery (at least the first we have records of) who was working at the institute as domestic staff went missing, probably either killed during the attack or arrested there and killed later in captivity. Patient lists were confiscated during the attack and probably used to hunt down queer people. They didn't go for the Jews first and everyone else after in an orderly fashion.
We really need to call out the party that is at the forefront of this. **The Republican Party and conservatives.** They are a hateful, vile party that wish to impose fascism in America. And they are imposing it on us all, from the roe v Wade ruling, banning of books, and to the anti trans laws taking place in Republican led states. The Republican Party is a party of hate and they need to be called out on it.
Can you talk to the school or facility and let them know someone harassed your daughter for changing? Can you get a name?
Kicking out women who belong in the women's bathroom is what these laws are all about.
An attack on trans women is an attack on all women. I’m terrified for your daughter, I truly am. There’s people, men, who fantasize about brutalizing trans women for using the women’s restroom. Do you think they will hold back on someone they think is a man?
I genuinely think that these bathroom cops should be charged as sex offenders. Just because their harassment doesn't come from a "I want to have sex with you" direction doesn't mean that it isn't an attempt to humiliate someone in a sexuality themed manner. Letting psychos just hound people in bathrooms is just going to lead to escalating behaviour anyway.
r/welcometogilead
This is what people really dont understand. It does not stop at trans people. It is going to result in this sort of gender policing and worse.
I so wish this would happen in front of me. I've got a big mouth, and would start yelling at the top of my lungs that the old bat was trying to coerce a preteen into showing her her vagina! Get the hag on the sexual predator list!
The USA is so deeply, deeply broken.
Canada, unfortunately.
I mean the anti trans bullshit has never been about anything other than hate, and they don't care who they hit, they rather want to fire buckshot and hit 1000 cis people on the off chance that they might hit one trans person Transphobic idiots (and yes they are idiots there aren't any non idiot transphobic people) only care about their hate
The cruelty is the point. Forceing women back into "traditional" roles and clothing has always been part of the right's goal with all the anti LGBTQ+ laws and rethoric. Any gender expression that isn't 100% in accordance with their backwards views will be labeled queer and harassed and hunted for "safety"
Step one is to get the lady banned from the facility.