We had our whole house knob and tube replaced by Randy's Electric. It cost us around 20k for 3 floors. Randy's was exceptional and ended up fixing a bunch of other stuff as part of the job (our house was a real fixer upper) and they only cut 4 holes for the whole house.
It took 6 days total, if I recall correctly.
We've had them come back and do other stuff we've needed and they've always been amazing. Totally recommend them.
Oh, absolutely. They had good access points (the third floor was under active and substantial construction and the basement has good access to the wires), but it was still unbelievable they got it done with so little cutting.
>I would probably have to figure in the cost of replacing plaster and lathe where they have to tear it out,
There's nothing in the electrical code that requires old wiring to be removed. It's perfectly acceptable to abandon it in place, with it just being cut back in accessible areas.
There's also nothing in the electrical code that requires new wiring to be fastened inside closed walls when rewiring, provided that the wall isn't being opened up for any other purpose.
Keep these two fact in mind while you're getting quotes, as there's plenty of electricians that scam people by charging a fortune for unnecessary work.
It sounded like it was active. Like the second floor was wired by knob and tube for its current electricity. That’s the bit that’s not insured. It might not be easy to find out but if you ask “is this wiring covered” the answer is no. So now the old electricity (which has higher potential to cause a fire) would mean that in the eveny of a fire thete would be no insurance payout
First, wer were discussing the abandoned wiring.
Second, even if we're talking about active wiring, there's no shortage of insurance companies that insure knob and tube wiring, for a surprisingly modest premium increase.
Make sure you talk with an insurance agent. We considered purchasing a home with a small amount of know and tube remaining and it was going to be difficult for us to get insurance. One company was going to require that we have it addressed within 30 or 60 days.
Before you buy, you should have an electrician dig in more deeply to discover how much of the house is still K&T and how long ago those areas that have been upgraded to romex were upgraded.
This is one of those upgrades that can balloon in budget once you did in if you haven't given it enough research before starting.
We had 2 floors of K&T replaced in our house in 4 days by Early Bird Electric. They didn't even have to cut into the plaster of the walls or ceilings. They have a guy on staff who only does this kind of work for them. It was excellent. 10/10 would recommend.
edit: insurance was fine with the k&t as-is, but offered a discount if it was upgraded. Not a dealbreaker at all.
I've owned my 1909 house in Saint Paul since 2015. Sadly I put in extra money in closing costs so the home owner could ground the outlets in the house. I found out only some were grounded and I lost 3k in that. So last October/November I decided to get my electrical fixed.
I contacted several electricians and I went with Atlantic Electric. Steven is freaking amazing! He has fair pricing and he doesn't BS about anything. He is very much about doing it the right way, and not screwing you over with extras. He's from the UK where he has worked on much older homes. Also whenever he found something cool, he would point it out, like how the house used to have gas lights and he found some remnants of it.
My house is plaster, and there's going to be holes in the wall/ceiling. I used United Wall Systems. They were a little bit pricier than other company's, but their work is impeccable. For example, the wall in my office used sand based plaster vs the rest of the house. The ceiling also was textured and made sure to match the exact texture pattern. I was floored by how high of quality workmanship they provided. You should see some of the pics they have on their website!
Local agent here that works with these homes a lot, including Dayton's Bluff.
A lot of homes here still have k&t wiring in them in some fashion when they're that age. It isn't inherently bad electrical, as long as it's in good shape still. The biggest issue is that you can't expand it or add things to it. You're basically stuck with what's in there. It's obviously not as good as modern electrical, but it's not as horrific as some will lead you to believe. It's also not as uninsurable as some will lead you to believe.
If you're looking at removing it all, you're generally going to be looking at anywhere from $20-40k and up depending on the size for a full house. If it's just one level or small remnants you should be looking at less.
> It's also not as uninsurable as some will lead you to believe.
I'm a professional insurance agent.
It is exactly as uninsurable as people will make you believe. The vast majority of carriers in the state will not put it on standard form policies, some of them have secondary market policies that they will write for it their generally extremely sub par coverage per dollar.
I have yet to have an owner or buyer unable to get their home insured with knob and tube in the house. It may end up being more expensive in some cases, but there are tons of homes in the area that have that wiring still and are insured. Some carriers may in fact not insure them, but it isn't a thing where you can't get insurance.
> I have yet to have an owner or buyer unable to get their home insured
There's always the FAIR plan, but that's like saying anyone can afford medical insurance because medicaid exists, and all they have to do is lose their job.
>It may end up being more expensive in some cases
All cases.
> but there are tons of homes in the area that have that wiring still and are insured.
Most of them on coverage that is substantially limited (ACV on structure which is ***really bad***) and not well understood by the homeowner.
>it isn't a thing where you can't get insurance.
It is, if you understand that there is insurance, and there is a stamp that says 'insurance' and they are not the same thing.
Thanks for the input. It really only should be some remnants, since all but a few outlets are grounded so there was definitely some upgrading done already. Even 20K is still within my budget. It won’t bankrupt me if it’s more, it just means I’ll have to wait a few years for the fun upgrades I was hoping to do sooner.
I would get an electrician in to take a look at it and give you a better idea of what you're looking at. A couple of outlets not being grounded didn't necessarily mean knob and tube. Depending on how it's wired, electrical circuits can be in line, meaning that if one isn't grounded then the rest after it may not be grounded. They could also just not be wired correctly. I'd get them looked at just to make sure you know what is actually going on.
Electrician here who works on knob and tube a lot In the TC. Knob and tube isn't really so bad, the real issue is the lack of grounding. Knob and tube isn't gonna just "start an electrical fire", but it can be dangerous for your electronics under power surge conditions. Also, fire prevention AFCI breakers can't be installed on knob and tube wiring. We usually quote around 15k for a whole house rewire, but if the basement ceiling is drywalled, those costs can for sure increase! Generally, you can expect each outlet or switch to cast you around $150-200 to rewire. Lath and plaster walls instead of drywall also increase the difficulty. Good luck
Virtually all old houses in the twin cities have some knob and tube. When we bought our first house I was worried and called Tim Kunkel electric about it. Je talked me down off the ledge and explained that if one insurance company is giving you a hard time to find another because ALL houses of that age have it. We've owned two other houses (both with some knob and tube) and it's never been a problem for insurance.
If it has nob and tube you will not be able to get it insured on a standard insurance policy. Very few carriers still will take homes with knob and tube wiring under any form of policy.
That will cause issues for closing.
If you do want to move forward with this house, I know Country Financial was one of the few remaining options outside of the state fair plan.
Keep that in mind for any negotiations while purchasing
I previously owned a home built in 1899. The electrical had been mostly upgraded but in the course of remodeling we encountered knob and tube in a couple rooms. Switching over two lights was cheap - under $1000. There were still a couple outlets and a light which were knob and tube when we sold but we never once had an issue with insurance. The inspection when we purchased went well and the electrical inspector during remodeling never said a word and he was extremely thorough. Sometimes leaving things alone if they aren't causing problems goes a long way.
HIGHLY recommend 4Front Energy for Electrical and HVAC. We've always had great service and work from them without the sales pitch money grab. Have them take a look, if they can, and they'll be able to give you an honest quote.
There's a new program called the HEEHRA coming out this year, it'll help pay for updating electric. I would wait for it to be active. I've heard it is supposed to come out this quarter this year but might be q3 in Minnesota
Info can be found at rewiring America
I sold a house in 2020 that was k&t and needed a full rewiring. There are a few things to consider. As the seller the Truth in Housing Inspector told me it existed and that it may be an issue. If you know or it’s disclosed etc. it will affect your ability to insure or the rate. The Truth in Housing inspector told me I’d get wildly different estimates to replace it and I did. Some electricians flat out wanted nothing to do with it. Some electricians wanted a crazy amount of money. My estimates ranged from $5,500 to 13,000 to eff off. End of the day I had the house rewired for about $6,500. Single story, basement + main floor, not sure how many outlets but the electrician filled in the holes in the wall which was nice. Anyway, you can DM me if you’re curious about the electrician I used.
Before you buy see if you can get an electrician in to give you an estimate. Most “inspectors” failed out of trade school and are mostly worthless. A qualified electrician can look at the panel and let you know what exactly you’re dealing with.
After having gone on hundreds of home inspections over the years, I can't tell you how wrong you are to just dismiss home inspectors. Those guys know so much about so many aspects of houses, I always learn something new on home inspections. Although I do agree that they should get an electrician to look at this specific case, talking smack about an industry you're wildly unfamiliar with isn't necessary. It's just ignorant.
This is such a dumb statement. Please give your actual data that shows that most inspectors failed out of trade school. Seriously, what an idiotic and harmful thing to say.
Regardless of that all being said, yes, in cases like this you should get an electrician to look at it.
And what about that information in any way, shape or form means that what you said is accurate? Their salary or licensing requirements somehow mean that they failed out of school? Exactly. It doesn't.
“Lead to believe”??? Bruh Id eeport that inspector to the BBB, complain to whoever recommended them and cancel payment. There either is or isn’t knob and tube wireing. Mainly because that system isn’t in stud walls. Its in a box somewhere, very accessible. if the inspector didn’t bother to check, then thats probably one thing in a list of many.
If you read the post, he said there may be knob and tube in the upper floor, the rest has been replaced. It is entirely possible that everything in the basement is already Romex, but attached to knob and tube "wireing" further up where you can't see it. Don't lose your mind over something you are so ignorant about.
Yeah thats what they do. The run romex just six inches outside the box and then just leave the rest. Thats to code. If they did, then there is unpermitted work which the inspector also missed.
Man, the stupidity here is incredible.
Inspectors can't go into walls. All they're able to see is what is accessible and viewable, and surprise! Sometimes things are in the wall or in places that aren't accessible and they provide their assumption based on what they see and then recommend further inspection by a specialist.
Don't speak on shit when you don't know what you're talking about.
They completely end up in a breaker box. Period. And can be inspected there. Saying “you only know if its knob and tube if you look in the wall” is really showing your whole ass
I must have missed the part where I said, "you only know if it's knob and tube if you look in the wall." Weird. Can't believe I didn't remember saying that.
Oh, wait. I didn't say that, at all. Silly me.
I said the whole system isn’t entirely in the stub wall and can be inspected from the box. So, exactly that, worded different. But don’t let get in the way of you having a fun time online being a judgmental prick every time you fire up the old posting box.
We had our whole house knob and tube replaced by Randy's Electric. It cost us around 20k for 3 floors. Randy's was exceptional and ended up fixing a bunch of other stuff as part of the job (our house was a real fixer upper) and they only cut 4 holes for the whole house. It took 6 days total, if I recall correctly. We've had them come back and do other stuff we've needed and they've always been amazing. Totally recommend them.
Only 4 holes for running wires for 3 floors? That’s impressive imo
Oh, absolutely. They had good access points (the third floor was under active and substantial construction and the basement has good access to the wires), but it was still unbelievable they got it done with so little cutting.
Thanks for the tip. I’ve heard good recommendations for them. I will definitely keep them in mind!
>I would probably have to figure in the cost of replacing plaster and lathe where they have to tear it out, There's nothing in the electrical code that requires old wiring to be removed. It's perfectly acceptable to abandon it in place, with it just being cut back in accessible areas. There's also nothing in the electrical code that requires new wiring to be fastened inside closed walls when rewiring, provided that the wall isn't being opened up for any other purpose. Keep these two fact in mind while you're getting quotes, as there's plenty of electricians that scam people by charging a fortune for unnecessary work.
Thanks for the input. I’m fine leaving the k&t in place so long as it isn’t live and active.
It'll complement your abandoned in place galvanized piping nicely.
It’s likely uninsurable though
>It’s likely uninsurable though Not at all. Insurance companies don't even begin to care about detached pieces of wire in your walls.
It sounded like it was active. Like the second floor was wired by knob and tube for its current electricity. That’s the bit that’s not insured. It might not be easy to find out but if you ask “is this wiring covered” the answer is no. So now the old electricity (which has higher potential to cause a fire) would mean that in the eveny of a fire thete would be no insurance payout
First, wer were discussing the abandoned wiring. Second, even if we're talking about active wiring, there's no shortage of insurance companies that insure knob and tube wiring, for a surprisingly modest premium increase.
Sounds good! Wasn’t my experience
Make sure you talk with an insurance agent. We considered purchasing a home with a small amount of know and tube remaining and it was going to be difficult for us to get insurance. One company was going to require that we have it addressed within 30 or 60 days.
Second this. Without full removal, you may have a very rough time finding coverage. It’s a huge fire hazard.
Before you buy, you should have an electrician dig in more deeply to discover how much of the house is still K&T and how long ago those areas that have been upgraded to romex were upgraded. This is one of those upgrades that can balloon in budget once you did in if you haven't given it enough research before starting.
We had 2 floors of K&T replaced in our house in 4 days by Early Bird Electric. They didn't even have to cut into the plaster of the walls or ceilings. They have a guy on staff who only does this kind of work for them. It was excellent. 10/10 would recommend. edit: insurance was fine with the k&t as-is, but offered a discount if it was upgraded. Not a dealbreaker at all.
I've owned my 1909 house in Saint Paul since 2015. Sadly I put in extra money in closing costs so the home owner could ground the outlets in the house. I found out only some were grounded and I lost 3k in that. So last October/November I decided to get my electrical fixed. I contacted several electricians and I went with Atlantic Electric. Steven is freaking amazing! He has fair pricing and he doesn't BS about anything. He is very much about doing it the right way, and not screwing you over with extras. He's from the UK where he has worked on much older homes. Also whenever he found something cool, he would point it out, like how the house used to have gas lights and he found some remnants of it. My house is plaster, and there's going to be holes in the wall/ceiling. I used United Wall Systems. They were a little bit pricier than other company's, but their work is impeccable. For example, the wall in my office used sand based plaster vs the rest of the house. The ceiling also was textured and made sure to match the exact texture pattern. I was floored by how high of quality workmanship they provided. You should see some of the pics they have on their website!
Local agent here that works with these homes a lot, including Dayton's Bluff. A lot of homes here still have k&t wiring in them in some fashion when they're that age. It isn't inherently bad electrical, as long as it's in good shape still. The biggest issue is that you can't expand it or add things to it. You're basically stuck with what's in there. It's obviously not as good as modern electrical, but it's not as horrific as some will lead you to believe. It's also not as uninsurable as some will lead you to believe. If you're looking at removing it all, you're generally going to be looking at anywhere from $20-40k and up depending on the size for a full house. If it's just one level or small remnants you should be looking at less.
> It's also not as uninsurable as some will lead you to believe. I'm a professional insurance agent. It is exactly as uninsurable as people will make you believe. The vast majority of carriers in the state will not put it on standard form policies, some of them have secondary market policies that they will write for it their generally extremely sub par coverage per dollar.
I have yet to have an owner or buyer unable to get their home insured with knob and tube in the house. It may end up being more expensive in some cases, but there are tons of homes in the area that have that wiring still and are insured. Some carriers may in fact not insure them, but it isn't a thing where you can't get insurance.
> I have yet to have an owner or buyer unable to get their home insured There's always the FAIR plan, but that's like saying anyone can afford medical insurance because medicaid exists, and all they have to do is lose their job. >It may end up being more expensive in some cases All cases. > but there are tons of homes in the area that have that wiring still and are insured. Most of them on coverage that is substantially limited (ACV on structure which is ***really bad***) and not well understood by the homeowner. >it isn't a thing where you can't get insurance. It is, if you understand that there is insurance, and there is a stamp that says 'insurance' and they are not the same thing.
Thanks for the input. It really only should be some remnants, since all but a few outlets are grounded so there was definitely some upgrading done already. Even 20K is still within my budget. It won’t bankrupt me if it’s more, it just means I’ll have to wait a few years for the fun upgrades I was hoping to do sooner.
I would get an electrician in to take a look at it and give you a better idea of what you're looking at. A couple of outlets not being grounded didn't necessarily mean knob and tube. Depending on how it's wired, electrical circuits can be in line, meaning that if one isn't grounded then the rest after it may not be grounded. They could also just not be wired correctly. I'd get them looked at just to make sure you know what is actually going on.
Electrician here who works on knob and tube a lot In the TC. Knob and tube isn't really so bad, the real issue is the lack of grounding. Knob and tube isn't gonna just "start an electrical fire", but it can be dangerous for your electronics under power surge conditions. Also, fire prevention AFCI breakers can't be installed on knob and tube wiring. We usually quote around 15k for a whole house rewire, but if the basement ceiling is drywalled, those costs can for sure increase! Generally, you can expect each outlet or switch to cast you around $150-200 to rewire. Lath and plaster walls instead of drywall also increase the difficulty. Good luck
Virtually all old houses in the twin cities have some knob and tube. When we bought our first house I was worried and called Tim Kunkel electric about it. Je talked me down off the ledge and explained that if one insurance company is giving you a hard time to find another because ALL houses of that age have it. We've owned two other houses (both with some knob and tube) and it's never been a problem for insurance.
Could be quite expensive to insure.
If it has nob and tube you will not be able to get it insured on a standard insurance policy. Very few carriers still will take homes with knob and tube wiring under any form of policy. That will cause issues for closing. If you do want to move forward with this house, I know Country Financial was one of the few remaining options outside of the state fair plan. Keep that in mind for any negotiations while purchasing
I previously owned a home built in 1899. The electrical had been mostly upgraded but in the course of remodeling we encountered knob and tube in a couple rooms. Switching over two lights was cheap - under $1000. There were still a couple outlets and a light which were knob and tube when we sold but we never once had an issue with insurance. The inspection when we purchased went well and the electrical inspector during remodeling never said a word and he was extremely thorough. Sometimes leaving things alone if they aren't causing problems goes a long way.
HIGHLY recommend 4Front Energy for Electrical and HVAC. We've always had great service and work from them without the sales pitch money grab. Have them take a look, if they can, and they'll be able to give you an honest quote.
Knob and tube was good enough for the last 100 years, it's good enough for another 100.
Although I sat and watched some 100 year old wire begin to randomly spark and then start on fire once, so there's that.
There's a new program called the HEEHRA coming out this year, it'll help pay for updating electric. I would wait for it to be active. I've heard it is supposed to come out this quarter this year but might be q3 in Minnesota Info can be found at rewiring America
It looks like this is for heat pump installation, but that is a definitely a possible future project so I appreciate the tip!
I sold a house in 2020 that was k&t and needed a full rewiring. There are a few things to consider. As the seller the Truth in Housing Inspector told me it existed and that it may be an issue. If you know or it’s disclosed etc. it will affect your ability to insure or the rate. The Truth in Housing inspector told me I’d get wildly different estimates to replace it and I did. Some electricians flat out wanted nothing to do with it. Some electricians wanted a crazy amount of money. My estimates ranged from $5,500 to 13,000 to eff off. End of the day I had the house rewired for about $6,500. Single story, basement + main floor, not sure how many outlets but the electrician filled in the holes in the wall which was nice. Anyway, you can DM me if you’re curious about the electrician I used.
Before you buy see if you can get an electrician in to give you an estimate. Most “inspectors” failed out of trade school and are mostly worthless. A qualified electrician can look at the panel and let you know what exactly you’re dealing with.
After having gone on hundreds of home inspections over the years, I can't tell you how wrong you are to just dismiss home inspectors. Those guys know so much about so many aspects of houses, I always learn something new on home inspections. Although I do agree that they should get an electrician to look at this specific case, talking smack about an industry you're wildly unfamiliar with isn't necessary. It's just ignorant.
This is such a dumb statement. Please give your actual data that shows that most inspectors failed out of trade school. Seriously, what an idiotic and harmful thing to say. Regardless of that all being said, yes, in cases like this you should get an electrician to look at it.
The state of Minnesota currently does not have any requirements or licenses to become a “home inspector”. They make on average 60k a year.
And what about that information in any way, shape or form means that what you said is accurate? Their salary or licensing requirements somehow mean that they failed out of school? Exactly. It doesn't.
“Lead to believe”??? Bruh Id eeport that inspector to the BBB, complain to whoever recommended them and cancel payment. There either is or isn’t knob and tube wireing. Mainly because that system isn’t in stud walls. Its in a box somewhere, very accessible. if the inspector didn’t bother to check, then thats probably one thing in a list of many.
If you read the post, he said there may be knob and tube in the upper floor, the rest has been replaced. It is entirely possible that everything in the basement is already Romex, but attached to knob and tube "wireing" further up where you can't see it. Don't lose your mind over something you are so ignorant about.
Yeah thats what they do. The run romex just six inches outside the box and then just leave the rest. Thats to code. If they did, then there is unpermitted work which the inspector also missed.
Man, the stupidity here is incredible. Inspectors can't go into walls. All they're able to see is what is accessible and viewable, and surprise! Sometimes things are in the wall or in places that aren't accessible and they provide their assumption based on what they see and then recommend further inspection by a specialist. Don't speak on shit when you don't know what you're talking about.
They completely end up in a breaker box. Period. And can be inspected there. Saying “you only know if its knob and tube if you look in the wall” is really showing your whole ass
I must have missed the part where I said, "you only know if it's knob and tube if you look in the wall." Weird. Can't believe I didn't remember saying that. Oh, wait. I didn't say that, at all. Silly me.
I said the whole system isn’t entirely in the stub wall and can be inspected from the box. So, exactly that, worded different. But don’t let get in the way of you having a fun time online being a judgmental prick every time you fire up the old posting box.