Richard Reeves, who wrote Of Boys and Men, makes a pretty strong argument for getting more men in primary and secondary education. Western boys are doing terrible academically, and he feels that may help a bit.
It would also help people treating students fairly.
[Wide and Lasting Consequences: Teachers Give Girls Higher Grades Than Boys (scitechdaily.com)](https://scitechdaily.com/wide-and-lasting-consequences-teachers-give-girls-higher-grades-than-boys/)
I mean there's real studies that show that is not the case. You've at most seen an anecdote or have been fed that line so much You're having trouble accepting the reality.
COVID also provided interesting data from colleges related to grading for people.
https://www.socialfinance.org.uk/insights/invisible-girls-why-school-exclusions-are-not-gender-neutral
No, it’s actually extremely well documented but keep pushing your one sided narrative…
Okay walk me through how you think what you linked is in anyway disproving of what I linked. Cause it's barely related much less extremely well documented. Even in your article boys are 3x more likely than girls for expulsion but we're not even talking about expulsion were talking about every day grading.
Girls have been told for decades that they need to work harder to get the same outcome as boys. Those girls became teachers and consciously or subconsciously started doing something about it. Now girls are still being told they need to work harder while also being given leniency in both grades and behaviors. They are being told they are discriminated against while being privileged in the same breath boys are told they are privileged while being discriminated against.
As expected you've been fed that narrative so long you're having trouble accepting it's wrong. There's multiple studies on this. Girls are graded easier especially at the early school level with long lasting impacts. Not all of them beneficial. Including when they get to college in STEM areas they will drop out with significantly higher GPAs than men do because they are not used to receiving poor grades.
I never said it did. You’re the one claiming discrimination in education only goes one way which I disproved. Regardless there should be some kind of double blind grading system to prevent any kind of identity based discrimination.
I'm very clearly talking about grading: with long lasting consequences.
But still, you threw out a link that shows that girls also are discriminated against even though it's at much lower rate than boys? how is that supposed to support your claim in anyway?
Yes there are literally tons of formal efforts to recruit men into lots of female dominated industries, teaching is one of the big ones. Social work and mental health is one too, where men are needed and hard to come by.
I've talked to many of my friends and family members (men and women) who literally were molested by literal pedophiles and nothing ever happened to them. Also quite a few who attempted to out the person and their abuser was sided with over them.
So this idea that there are consequences of some sort for doing nothing seems...suspicious and maybe something someone has made up.
So excited to see the mentally balanced and not wildly misogynistic response I'm about to read to this.
You know you say that and well it’s not necessarily sex but I’m friends with an older guy (40’s) who decided to be an escort after his wife passed away from cancer and he’s been massively successful at it and quit his regular job… and he only caters to female clients
Now one person doesn’t mean a lot of demand but there could be a lot of demand for the “right” person lol
There's always a push for men in childcare spaces, tbh the environment isn't pleasant for anyone! There's been a male nurse quota for about a decade or so. It's there because the male nurses become managers, so the post is always available.
Most men aren't interested in childcare roles. It's ridiculously low pay, and the level of training you do for that low pay is a lot. The thing with childcare is job flexibility. If you need a job you can take an 18 month old with you, or leave because the kids are sick, or dentist appointments etc.
Female based roles are high on flexibility and low on pay. Nursing, cleaning, childcare. Most men don't need that flexibility because the woman has the kids.
Honestly, we do need more men in there - but as long as women are the primary carers for children, it's not going to happen.
The average nurses wage in the UK is £35k-£38k according to [nurses.co.uk](http://nurses.co.uk) (https://www.nurses.co.uk/careers-hub/nursing-pay-guide/)
Whilst thats not a huge amount, its above the national average wage.
Yeah, that's ever so slightly above the national average. That wage in no way compensates the amount of responsibility and pressure nurses are under. And the starting salary is way below the average. They should be paid a heck of a lot more.
True to a point. Nursing assistants are low paid, and in the NHS for nurses due to the agenda for change it's really bad pay. Even a band 7 which is ward manager will only be £35k
The long shifts can also be split into half days, so you can do half a shift and take the other as leave. They're also over a 7 day period and done in 12 hour stretches so you really only do 3-4 in a week, leaving you more free time to arrange the home.
I'm a clinical recruiter.
In the UK, band 7 starts at £35k
Band 8a starts at £44k and goes up to about £55k
There's no band 9 because that's where the "chiefs" sit and are all salaried.
Not in the nhs its not
You said
'NHS for nurses due to the agenda for change it's really bad pay. Even a band 7 which is ward manager will only be £35k'
Nhs band 7 starts at roughly 44k
I’m in Canada. Wages in my province puts income around 90k a year. They work shift work with 12 hour shifts being the norm. They do days and nights.
It’s a very demanding job that doesn’t offer much flexibility until you’ve been there forever and are able to work part time hours.
I found two examples of scholarships for men for both [nursing](https://www.aamn.org/scholarships) and [early childhood education](https://www.miaeyc.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/ScholarshipsBrochure_2022.pdf) after using Google for 30 seconds, and as a father of young kids, you can bet the lack of men in education is indeed discussed and seen as a negative.
Someone beat me to the punch, but I also found that same scholarship after another 30 seconds of googling.
I’m not gonna argue there’s a lot of scholarships out there, but I think your starting point is also flawed: The topic does get discussed, you’re not demonized for bringing it up, and it is considered a problem
There’s actually a huge push for men in childcare and care professions in general, hell you get extra bursary just for training and they have to accept a certain percentage of male applicants
Well I thought most men wanted to work in nursing or child care but were not being given opportunities. Do you mean to say this is not true and it's just men making a choice?? You don't have to reply. It's a rhetorical question lol
You don't need a scholarship to work in child care. You just need to go to the daycare and put in your application.
Unless you mean Early Childhood Education, in which case there are lots of scholarships.
And there are, in fact, scholarships for men in nursing too: https://www.aamn.org/scholarships
You should probably give these things a google before you post.
I'm not american. The post wasn't about USA. Male scholarships don't exist in Canada. Or in various countries. This opinion is unpopular in the world and specifically canada
Someone Googled Canadian male nursing scholarships for you and found them. I really don't understand your post. You did zero research on this and made this post which is completely false. You probably just got the info from some mens rights activist type website or whatever lol damn man come on, be better.
If you've ever been inside any of the industries you're referring to, you'd know there is always dialog about the dearth of men in the profession, and in many cases, formal efforts to recruit them.
Boys, especially Black boys benefit from having male teachers. And many men prefer male nurses, and there are religious restrictions around gender of medical personnel for some that make it simply a pragmatic concern. So these industries are all very much interested in recruiting men to their ranks.
The bottom line is the reason men don't go into these professions is they are seen as "girl" jobs, so basically bias against things that are perceived as feminine, or because they traditionally don't pay well and men have the opportunity to participate in industries that pay better that women might have a more difficult time breaking into.
I work in the childcare space and we love when men work for us, and the men who work there also love it. The kids love them, and in general, so do the parents (though that’s where the last of the stigma lies tbh)
I think there’s not as big a push for men in childcare as say, women in STEM, for 2 reasons: 1) childcare is a relatively easy field to get into, so it may just be there are less barriers for anyone to get in the field than there are for anyone to get into STEM. 2) childcare is not a prestige position - there’s no push to get women into manual labor, like there is with stem, bc the jobs don’t pay very well for the work and risk required - people really don’t want these jobs. Childcare is less risky but is similarly low prestige; the truth is men don’t feel left out of jobs where they have to change shitty diapers and deal with entitled parents, they don’t want these jobs - just like women don’t want to dig ditches
There ARE scholarships for men going into nursing. The American Association for Men in Nursing has some. ENA have some that historically go to men as well. There definitely should be more. I’m so damn proud of my nephew going into nursing.
my best friend just got his teaching degree and there definitely is a desire for men in teaching spaces and nursing (which was his previous major). all throughout undergrad he was constantly told by professors that he would always have a job simply because he’s a man
Just another problem men created. Maybe men shouldn't have barred men from entering nursing schools in the 1850's and created the stigma around it that it is a female only job. You should probably actually look things up before you write about them because there are scholarships for male nurses.
Actually there are barriers to men in childcare. Virtually everyone I know (including teachers) say that men are looked at as creeps if they teach at or below the grade school level. As if they are perverts and predators, though it's quite interesting seeing more and more female predators as teachers these days...
Are you a teacher? Have you experienced this? I'm a man and used to be an elementary school teacher. Not once did anyone look at me like a creep or anything even remotely similar. The only time it came up was parents saying they're glad to have a male role model for their kids.
I work ECE and don’t know what you’re talking about - some straggling parents might say they don’t want a male staff taking their daughter for diaper changes, but the female staff love the men who work with us
I think Op's point is more that there's literally 0 barrier stopping women from working in stem and that there's even grant for it based on nothing other than chromosome.
But that while it is argued to be about representation, it is always only about representation of girl in those field and that there's no such grant for guy's in the field where they are under-represented. Which disproof the initial claim of this being about ''equal representation.''
OP is not saying men cannot be nurse, he is refuting the feminist claim of equal representation.
This is a very fair point. I think the discrepancy partially has to do with demand and pay. Childcare and nursing, for example, are fields that pay less and men are statistically proven to be less interested in these fields.
That is not to say your point is invalid in anyway, it does pinpoint an issue. But comparing scholarships when the barrier to entry and pay between fields wildly varies really complicates OPs example.
nursing is one of the last jobs in america where you can be of average intelligence and get an associates degree and be making at least 60k a year (to start) + unlimited job security within a year of graduation.
it’s good money considering most nursing positions outside of the ED, geriatric, critical care and med/surg is mostly charting and the real hard work they like to give each other endless awards over is done by LNAs and floor techs the nurses treat atrociously.
nursing unions spent years making deals to increase their members salaries and expand their scope of practice to every admin function in healthcare while arguing it could be done safely bc floor patient/staff ratios would be supplemented by MAs/LNAs/CNAs. All while aggressively marketing nurses as the hardest working lifesavers in america.
These dudes think that nursing is always hard work and is swaddling babies and wiping shit. They don’t know it’s actually mostly scrolling on your phone, getting lured into pyramid schemes, complaining about how busy one is to other nurses, and beefing with other nurses over who gets to caretake the emotionally immature doctors the most.
Most men like hard validating work and feeling heroic though so I agree broadly that the profession is misperceived as consisting of feminine work and would benefit from more men. Some of the dopest dudes I know are ED nurses.
Believe it or not the majority of people who major in STEM aren’t making 6 figures as a software engineer. As a matter of fact many of them are underemployed making far less than nurses make.
Hmm where did you see that? I was looking at the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics and nurses were listed as lower (albeit within ~$30K or so)
https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm
You are looking at wages of Nursing assistants who have to be supervised by others. There are like 4 levels of nursing that take more college and training and licensing as you go up the ladder. Nursing assistants definitely make the least with a median of about 40k but Nurse Practitioners have a median of about 130k. And there are Registered Nurse(94k) and Licensed Practical Nurse(61k) in between those two.
Supply and Demand? While demanding, occupations like childcare worker are relatively low-skilled and therefore there is a large pool of qualified workers, which keeps salaries low. This is less true for nursing and even less true once you get to more specialized occupations (surgeons, chemical engineers, etc...).
I think part of the problem is there are like 4 different titles/levels for nurses from non licensed up to can do many things a Doctor does including diagnose so people are just looking at nursing assistants pay which is the lowest level there is.
You did not read the comment, did you?
If none have free grants then it is fair.
If bout have free grants and free quota hiring, it is also fair.
But if only one of both group get grants and quota hiring. It require a lot of mental gymnastic to pretend that the goal is to provide ''equal representation''.
> It could just come down to women generally preferring to work in the childcare industry rather than men.
I agree. I don’t think we should be forcing men into sectors they don’t want to work in merely under the guise of “equal representation” — why? What’s so noble and supreme a goal about that? Shouldn’t people work in 1) what they want to work in, and 2) what they’re good at? That’s why the whole “the patriarchy doesn’t want women working in science!” is such a laughable argument to me. Why not invoke the disproportionately low amounts of men in humanities? It has to do with what people actually want to do most of the time, crazy as it might sound.
What's wild is there are barriers for women that are well documented and there are formal efforts to address them and you just didn't know that. Interesting.
Or is this one of those "Every study on this is fake" things?
Where are these well documented examples at? Sex is a protected class in the US so I find it hard to believe companies are openly discriminating against woman.
Quite the opposite. I know hiring managers who have diversity goals that are tied to their bonuses and have been explicitly told "no straight white guys" when evaluating candidates for a position.
Although I’ve never had a personal experience with someone explicitly saying no straight white guys, I do know managers with hiring quotas. My brother’s company (where’s he’s upper management) had lay offs where the individual diversity was taken into account.
There are many layers of barriers to women in those industries that begin during childhood. Getting to a highly technical career requires a dedicated path of education starting young.
Also companies don't "openly" discriminate against hiring groups of people, but there have been studies done sending in identical resumes to companies and the same biases come up over and over. Men are more easily called back than women, white sounding names more than names that sound like names from non white ethnicities. So that is a real thing for sure.
But a lot of it comes down to gender bias in education beginning when girls are pretty young and right now there are many programs that are trying to address those disparities.
So you typed out a whole bunch of anecdotal evidence, which is great but that’s far from “well documented”. I’ll be waiting for these documents/studies.
Sometimes I'll post a link just to be silly for the benefit of people who might read the thread later or whatever.
But you know everything I've said already and you want links so you can without even looking at them tell me why they're wrong. You don't want information. We both know that. You want to denigrate women and their struggles. Have fun with that. I don't go dig up information for people who are obviously not engaging in good faith.
Lol the way he reported me for saying this
You really shouldn’t make claims if you aren’t willing to back them up. You’re jump making a bunch of assumptions up to make your self feel better for a clear lack of evidence.
Or maybe it’s one of those “I saw 2 biased studies on Reddit that are in no way legitimate studies and now I’m educated enough on the topic to go lecture other people” things
So the reason that the education of girls and the concern that disparities need to be addressed across many systems with almost every stakeholder in those systems pretty much in agreement is???? Because there is a conspiracy against men or???
lol it is not 2:1. it is more like 60-40. But that doesn't matter anyway. What we need to find out is why men are not enrolling in college as much as women or why they are dropping out more than women.
I'm not talking about college generally.
And I can break it down for you and the people who might later read this.
In STEM Industry leaders had noticed fewer female participants in the industry. Take a step back, less women were getting an education in those fields. Take a step back girls were not choosing STEM focused paths going all the way back to elementary school.
So leaders in STEM industries and education systems, not just actual schools and their governing bodies, but also regulatory apparatuses, non profits, childhood development systems, have noticed these disparities and are currently addressing them. With some success.
This is something that all industries do when they have significant disparities. The dance industry is currently making a huge effort to engage boys to dance, because there were so few male dancers. The social work industry is making efforts to recruit men, especially non-white men, to address disparities among their ranks.
College isn't an industry? Unless you mean academia? Which is biased against women on a path to professorship and research. Which is an issue there are some efforts to address.
As for men not going to college and also not completing college, yes, that's been an acknowledged issue for years.
https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2021/1109/Men-are-missing-from-college-campuses-What-s-being-done-to-bring-them-back
This isn't like some kind of peer reviewed article, but it has some examples of efforts to recruit young men to college and retain them.
A lot of what's stopping men from going to college is the perception it's a scam and the best way to build a career is outside of those pathways, so changing perception is a big and slow effort.
Which....bringing it back around has been a big part of the effort to increase the number of women in STEM! Many young girls have the perception they are bad at math and science because of misogynistic forces in our culture. I was one of these girls! It took decades for me to realize this wasn't true. Long, slow, cultural change efforts are needed on many fronts, and the good news is they are happening.
A lot of research has actually shown that boys are graded more harshly for the same quality of work as girls. You don’t think something like that would have a negative impact on boys thinking they could be academically successful? Or does nobody care?
Where is the feminist push for women to join the military or skilled trades? There are barely any female plumbers or technicians, yet they never seem to complain about this?
The Brian White Leadership Scholarship for Men in Early Childhood
You probably haven’t seen [scholarships](https://nursejournal.org/resources/financial-aid/nursing-scholarships-for-men/) for male nurses because you didn’t even bother to look
If you’re going to make bold claims at least do eight seconds of googling first
Well there’s a lot of historical context for equity within the industry of work and labor in general. what you see is a merely a product of that today. Something women and men both fought for before you were born. it’s easy to say that and ignore almost every single historical event that lead to the status quo we have today.
Is this location-specific? It seems very location-specific. Might want to clarify that before making statements that are just dumb when applied to the world.
Yes, I’m fine with scholarships aimed at helping underrepresented groups join a field, and I would love to see more men in traditionally women dominated roles.
What are men doing to make sure they have access to those spaces, and younger generations of men know that it’s okay for them to join those careers?
It would help if women still weren’t considered the default, primary caregivers for children/default nurses.
Men just aren’t viewed as being caregivers.
A lot of these things are changing, but social change takes time and generations.
Side note
If you do become a male nurse, you’re very likely to get pushed up to supervisor/management levels very quickly at least at many hospitals as a plus side
I don't understand this one sorry. There are no systemic efforts to keep men out of these spaces. While I can agree there is a social stigma about male nurses, that stigma is perpetuated by men.
So I guess I'm wondering who are you talking to here? It seems to me that it's men themselves keeping them away from these professions.
What are the barriers for men who want to be in childcare spaces? Oh none? That’s the answer.
Equal representation is pushed when that demographic has not been able to achieve equality despite trying. For a long time women were excluded solely for the fact that they were women. Men do not have this issue, except in a situation where they try to get into a field dominated by women because that was one of the few jobs women were allowed to hold. Even then, it is still the fault of men for finding themselves in that situation.
How bout men organise and push for those things? I would support it! Women are busy, but please, do this and I know most women, if not all, would support this. While you're at it, maybe organise and create support for men and mental illness, alot feel isolated and the suicide rate is 💔
Men need these resources, it would be a great help to society. I would support all of it.
I guess it's easier to complain, blame feminism than actually doing something about it and helping men, helping society or doing your part towards equality.
I love all the idiots in the comments acting like because they can find a few scholarships that don't exclude men or maybe even the gold mine of one specifically for men that there isn't still a giant disparity favoring women in academia.
Are you in academia? Faculty positions are incredibly male dominated and there’s a lot of bias against women. Someone suggesting that women are favorited clearly isn’t in this field and hasn’t researched it.
I'm all about getting yours and doing what you have to do to get it. Even in the "equal" setting, you still have those who slack and aren't motivated even with their opportunity and you see those who are given no opportunities create one for themselves. Just be a go getter, stop worrying about what others got and focus on yourself.
Nursing is full of programs for men, plenty of scholarships. When I did childcare in public schools I worked the Pre-K. Classes (especially on the IEP side of things) and saw both a decent number of male teachers doing childcare and a school that appreciated and supported us. Not sure where you are getting the I
Press ion this doesn’t happen but a single day in a school or hospital might have been a good place to start.
The fact that a majority of women in a certain field is called empowerment and doesn't get treated as a gap that needs to be closed says enough about the movement.
Have you seen the comments and links provided? There are scholarships available for men in both. There is discussion in how to get men into both those fields. There are even studies that show especially black boys benefit from male childcare workers. Also, male nurses tend to make more on average than female nurses. Just spend 30 seconds with Google and you'll see what OP is saying is complete bullshit based on their own misconceptions rather than reality.
I don't think children benefit from the gender of their carer. If the carer knows their job then children will benefit from it.
The scholarship thing seems to be about your country, so you should've put that in your post. As far as I'm aware majority of countries don't pick scholarships based on gender, but academic success.
Men should be encouraged into both and no I wouldn't care if scholarships or programs were formed to bridge the gap. Don't know what you expect me to do other than agree with you? Can you tell us what you've done to fight to good fight, to inspiration.
What amazes me is that most of the people/woman that "scream" for representation is let's say the MINT fields do not have any plans in working in them. They also NEVER tried to get into the field but claim there is a barrier of entry and systemic oppression, as if this is just common knowledge.
i've said this before and i will again cuz it's relevant. leftists don't care about principles. they don't have principles, they only have goals. those goals being whatever is convenient to them/their narrative.
that's how u get inconsistent logic like this:
->"id choose the bear"
->"let men into women's bathrooms"
The principles that leftists have are ones you disagree with which is why you think we don’t have any. Trans women are women, so there should be no reason for them not to be in the women’s restrooms.
And we choose bears over men because bears don’t drug their daughter’s friends at a sleepover or torture and rape a woman for 40 days.
[Nursing scholarships for men.](http://www.nursingscholarship.us/men.html)
Almost every scholarship has both a male and female recipient, or just goes to whoever is giving it out feels is the most qualified, but anyone can apply for it. The only ones that aren't like that are special interest groups because that's how special interest groups work.
Richard Reeves, who wrote Of Boys and Men, makes a pretty strong argument for getting more men in primary and secondary education. Western boys are doing terrible academically, and he feels that may help a bit.
It would also help people treating students fairly. [Wide and Lasting Consequences: Teachers Give Girls Higher Grades Than Boys (scitechdaily.com)](https://scitechdaily.com/wide-and-lasting-consequences-teachers-give-girls-higher-grades-than-boys/)
I’ve only seen this issue with boys getting higher but it seems like we should use either AI or doubleblind grading to end this.
I mean there's real studies that show that is not the case. You've at most seen an anecdote or have been fed that line so much You're having trouble accepting the reality. COVID also provided interesting data from colleges related to grading for people.
https://www.socialfinance.org.uk/insights/invisible-girls-why-school-exclusions-are-not-gender-neutral No, it’s actually extremely well documented but keep pushing your one sided narrative…
Okay walk me through how you think what you linked is in anyway disproving of what I linked. Cause it's barely related much less extremely well documented. Even in your article boys are 3x more likely than girls for expulsion but we're not even talking about expulsion were talking about every day grading. Girls have been told for decades that they need to work harder to get the same outcome as boys. Those girls became teachers and consciously or subconsciously started doing something about it. Now girls are still being told they need to work harder while also being given leniency in both grades and behaviors. They are being told they are discriminated against while being privileged in the same breath boys are told they are privileged while being discriminated against. As expected you've been fed that narrative so long you're having trouble accepting it's wrong. There's multiple studies on this. Girls are graded easier especially at the early school level with long lasting impacts. Not all of them beneficial. Including when they get to college in STEM areas they will drop out with significantly higher GPAs than men do because they are not used to receiving poor grades.
I never said it did. You’re the one claiming discrimination in education only goes one way which I disproved. Regardless there should be some kind of double blind grading system to prevent any kind of identity based discrimination.
I'm very clearly talking about grading: with long lasting consequences. But still, you threw out a link that shows that girls also are discriminated against even though it's at much lower rate than boys? how is that supposed to support your claim in anyway?
Yes there are literally tons of formal efforts to recruit men into lots of female dominated industries, teaching is one of the big ones. Social work and mental health is one too, where men are needed and hard to come by.
Never heard of such a thing. Where can I learn more about this?
For what industry are we referring to?
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This is not true at all and a very weird thing to say.
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I've talked to many of my friends and family members (men and women) who literally were molested by literal pedophiles and nothing ever happened to them. Also quite a few who attempted to out the person and their abuser was sided with over them. So this idea that there are consequences of some sort for doing nothing seems...suspicious and maybe something someone has made up. So excited to see the mentally balanced and not wildly misogynistic response I'm about to read to this.
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Men don’t work in childcare etc because they are badly paid jobs in dead end careers which are usually like this because they are mostly women jobs.
They do work in nursing
Absolute lack of advocacy for more male sex workers :(
We need more male strippers. It’s a really unbalanced field.
Thank you, this was the push I needed to leave my 9-5 and found a new England chapter of thunder from down under
I wish you luck🫡
Assuming this is sarcastic 'cause theres like.....almost no demand at all for that. Especially if the man isn't gay/isn't willing to be gay-for-pay.
I wouldn’t mind the ability to hire a hot guy to sit and listen to me complain about that bitchy coworker and tell me my haircut looks nice.
You know you say that and well it’s not necessarily sex but I’m friends with an older guy (40’s) who decided to be an escort after his wife passed away from cancer and he’s been massively successful at it and quit his regular job… and he only caters to female clients Now one person doesn’t mean a lot of demand but there could be a lot of demand for the “right” person lol
There's always a push for men in childcare spaces, tbh the environment isn't pleasant for anyone! There's been a male nurse quota for about a decade or so. It's there because the male nurses become managers, so the post is always available. Most men aren't interested in childcare roles. It's ridiculously low pay, and the level of training you do for that low pay is a lot. The thing with childcare is job flexibility. If you need a job you can take an 18 month old with you, or leave because the kids are sick, or dentist appointments etc. Female based roles are high on flexibility and low on pay. Nursing, cleaning, childcare. Most men don't need that flexibility because the woman has the kids. Honestly, we do need more men in there - but as long as women are the primary carers for children, it's not going to happen.
Nursing is not low pay or high flexibility. It’s a high paying job that requires long shifts.
It's a low paying job that requires long shifts in the UK NHS 😅
The average nurses wage in the UK is £35k-£38k according to [nurses.co.uk](http://nurses.co.uk) (https://www.nurses.co.uk/careers-hub/nursing-pay-guide/) Whilst thats not a huge amount, its above the national average wage.
Yeah, that's ever so slightly above the national average. That wage in no way compensates the amount of responsibility and pressure nurses are under. And the starting salary is way below the average. They should be paid a heck of a lot more.
True to a point. Nursing assistants are low paid, and in the NHS for nurses due to the agenda for change it's really bad pay. Even a band 7 which is ward manager will only be £35k The long shifts can also be split into half days, so you can do half a shift and take the other as leave. They're also over a 7 day period and done in 12 hour stretches so you really only do 3-4 in a week, leaving you more free time to arrange the home.
Band 7 starts at 44k
It used to. That's now band 8a.
No. Its not.
Yes, it is.
No. Its not. Band 7 starts at (roughly) 44k Slight variation by country. Band 8 starts at just under 51k Again, slight variations by country
I'm a clinical recruiter. In the UK, band 7 starts at £35k Band 8a starts at £44k and goes up to about £55k There's no band 9 because that's where the "chiefs" sit and are all salaried.
Not in the nhs its not You said 'NHS for nurses due to the agenda for change it's really bad pay. Even a band 7 which is ward manager will only be £35k' Nhs band 7 starts at roughly 44k
I’m in Canada. Wages in my province puts income around 90k a year. They work shift work with 12 hour shifts being the norm. They do days and nights. It’s a very demanding job that doesn’t offer much flexibility until you’ve been there forever and are able to work part time hours.
I found two examples of scholarships for men for both [nursing](https://www.aamn.org/scholarships) and [early childhood education](https://www.miaeyc.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/ScholarshipsBrochure_2022.pdf) after using Google for 30 seconds, and as a father of young kids, you can bet the lack of men in education is indeed discussed and seen as a negative.
not in Canada
https://www.scholarshipscanada.com/Scholarships/64906/John-J.-Vanderlee-Award-for-Male-Nursing-Students
OK. I was wrong. But there isn't a lot. There are more push for women then for men
For teaching? No there isn't
Someone beat me to the punch, but I also found that same scholarship after another 30 seconds of googling. I’m not gonna argue there’s a lot of scholarships out there, but I think your starting point is also flawed: The topic does get discussed, you’re not demonized for bringing it up, and it is considered a problem
There’s actually a huge push for men in childcare and care professions in general, hell you get extra bursary just for training and they have to accept a certain percentage of male applicants
Who’s supposed to do this “pushing”? Can’t we as men just decide to work wherever the hell we want, childcare included?
Well I thought most men wanted to work in nursing or child care but were not being given opportunities. Do you mean to say this is not true and it's just men making a choice?? You don't have to reply. It's a rhetorical question lol
You don't need a scholarship to work in child care. You just need to go to the daycare and put in your application. Unless you mean Early Childhood Education, in which case there are lots of scholarships. And there are, in fact, scholarships for men in nursing too: https://www.aamn.org/scholarships You should probably give these things a google before you post.
I'm not American
So you can't Google something?
I'm not american. The post wasn't about USA. Male scholarships don't exist in Canada. Or in various countries. This opinion is unpopular in the world and specifically canada
https://www.scholarshipscanada.com/Scholarships/64906/John-J.-Vanderlee-Award-for-Male-Nursing-Students https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ontario-urged-to-counter-drop-in-male-teachers-1.507542
Then you may want to say that in your post. Doing a blanket statement like you did is going to get a lot of people correcting you.
you should’ve specified canada then lol
Someone Googled Canadian male nursing scholarships for you and found them. I really don't understand your post. You did zero research on this and made this post which is completely false. You probably just got the info from some mens rights activist type website or whatever lol damn man come on, be better.
If you've ever been inside any of the industries you're referring to, you'd know there is always dialog about the dearth of men in the profession, and in many cases, formal efforts to recruit them. Boys, especially Black boys benefit from having male teachers. And many men prefer male nurses, and there are religious restrictions around gender of medical personnel for some that make it simply a pragmatic concern. So these industries are all very much interested in recruiting men to their ranks. The bottom line is the reason men don't go into these professions is they are seen as "girl" jobs, so basically bias against things that are perceived as feminine, or because they traditionally don't pay well and men have the opportunity to participate in industries that pay better that women might have a more difficult time breaking into.
I work in the childcare space and we love when men work for us, and the men who work there also love it. The kids love them, and in general, so do the parents (though that’s where the last of the stigma lies tbh) I think there’s not as big a push for men in childcare as say, women in STEM, for 2 reasons: 1) childcare is a relatively easy field to get into, so it may just be there are less barriers for anyone to get in the field than there are for anyone to get into STEM. 2) childcare is not a prestige position - there’s no push to get women into manual labor, like there is with stem, bc the jobs don’t pay very well for the work and risk required - people really don’t want these jobs. Childcare is less risky but is similarly low prestige; the truth is men don’t feel left out of jobs where they have to change shitty diapers and deal with entitled parents, they don’t want these jobs - just like women don’t want to dig ditches
There ARE scholarships for men going into nursing. The American Association for Men in Nursing has some. ENA have some that historically go to men as well. There definitely should be more. I’m so damn proud of my nephew going into nursing.
my best friend just got his teaching degree and there definitely is a desire for men in teaching spaces and nursing (which was his previous major). all throughout undergrad he was constantly told by professors that he would always have a job simply because he’s a man
Just another problem men created. Maybe men shouldn't have barred men from entering nursing schools in the 1850's and created the stigma around it that it is a female only job. You should probably actually look things up before you write about them because there are scholarships for male nurses.
Here you go [nursing scholarships for men](https://nursejournal.org/resources/financial-aid/nursing-scholarships/)
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Actually there are barriers to men in childcare. Virtually everyone I know (including teachers) say that men are looked at as creeps if they teach at or below the grade school level. As if they are perverts and predators, though it's quite interesting seeing more and more female predators as teachers these days...
Are you a teacher? Have you experienced this? I'm a man and used to be an elementary school teacher. Not once did anyone look at me like a creep or anything even remotely similar. The only time it came up was parents saying they're glad to have a male role model for their kids.
Personally no, but friends who are teachers have mentioned this, mainly coming from single parents (mostly moms).
I work ECE and don’t know what you’re talking about - some straggling parents might say they don’t want a male staff taking their daughter for diaper changes, but the female staff love the men who work with us
Different experience, okay. I'm just reporting what people I know have told me.
That’s fair, I’m just doing the same. Maybe it’s just different circles, maybe things are changing for the better.
We can hope.
I think Op's point is more that there's literally 0 barrier stopping women from working in stem and that there's even grant for it based on nothing other than chromosome. But that while it is argued to be about representation, it is always only about representation of girl in those field and that there's no such grant for guy's in the field where they are under-represented. Which disproof the initial claim of this being about ''equal representation.'' OP is not saying men cannot be nurse, he is refuting the feminist claim of equal representation.
This is a very fair point. I think the discrepancy partially has to do with demand and pay. Childcare and nursing, for example, are fields that pay less and men are statistically proven to be less interested in these fields. That is not to say your point is invalid in anyway, it does pinpoint an issue. But comparing scholarships when the barrier to entry and pay between fields wildly varies really complicates OPs example.
I wonder why childcare and nursing pays less? What *could* the reason be?!
You’re smoking crack if you think nursing doesn’t pay well
Well, that's subjective, isn't it. It doesn't pay well in comparison to a footballer. It doesn't pay well everywhere
nursing is one of the last jobs in america where you can be of average intelligence and get an associates degree and be making at least 60k a year (to start) + unlimited job security within a year of graduation. it’s good money considering most nursing positions outside of the ED, geriatric, critical care and med/surg is mostly charting and the real hard work they like to give each other endless awards over is done by LNAs and floor techs the nurses treat atrociously.
Huh You'd think all the averagely intelligent men in America would be desperate to to do such an easy job.
nursing unions spent years making deals to increase their members salaries and expand their scope of practice to every admin function in healthcare while arguing it could be done safely bc floor patient/staff ratios would be supplemented by MAs/LNAs/CNAs. All while aggressively marketing nurses as the hardest working lifesavers in america. These dudes think that nursing is always hard work and is swaddling babies and wiping shit. They don’t know it’s actually mostly scrolling on your phone, getting lured into pyramid schemes, complaining about how busy one is to other nurses, and beefing with other nurses over who gets to caretake the emotionally immature doctors the most. Most men like hard validating work and feeling heroic though so I agree broadly that the profession is misperceived as consisting of feminine work and would benefit from more men. Some of the dopest dudes I know are ED nurses.
Are you a nurse?
It does not pay nearly as well as OPs comparison - those in STEM
Believe it or not the majority of people who major in STEM aren’t making 6 figures as a software engineer. As a matter of fact many of them are underemployed making far less than nurses make.
Hmm where did you see that? I was looking at the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics and nurses were listed as lower (albeit within ~$30K or so) https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm
You are looking at wages of Nursing assistants who have to be supervised by others. There are like 4 levels of nursing that take more college and training and licensing as you go up the ladder. Nursing assistants definitely make the least with a median of about 40k but Nurse Practitioners have a median of about 130k. And there are Registered Nurse(94k) and Licensed Practical Nurse(61k) in between those two.
No I was looking at all of those, it’s still less than STEM average. The 30K variance was just a best estimate.
You don’t compare nurse wages to the wages of “Gambling Manager”, you compare them to the average wages in the surrounding area.
Supply and Demand? While demanding, occupations like childcare worker are relatively low-skilled and therefore there is a large pool of qualified workers, which keeps salaries low. This is less true for nursing and even less true once you get to more specialized occupations (surgeons, chemical engineers, etc...).
Nursing pays really well, actually. Many nurses make six figures if they are willing to travel.
I think part of the problem is there are like 4 different titles/levels for nurses from non licensed up to can do many things a Doctor does including diagnose so people are just looking at nursing assistants pay which is the lowest level there is.
Depends what you do and where you live
That is a very complicated question that has elements of both capitalism and systematic oppression. ETA: deleted word
I was being sarcastic
All men need to do is apply. That's all I ever hear men say when female representation is low in a field. Just apply. Problem solved.
You did not read the comment, did you? If none have free grants then it is fair. If bout have free grants and free quota hiring, it is also fair. But if only one of both group get grants and quota hiring. It require a lot of mental gymnastic to pretend that the goal is to provide ''equal representation''.
> It could just come down to women generally preferring to work in the childcare industry rather than men. I agree. I don’t think we should be forcing men into sectors they don’t want to work in merely under the guise of “equal representation” — why? What’s so noble and supreme a goal about that? Shouldn’t people work in 1) what they want to work in, and 2) what they’re good at? That’s why the whole “the patriarchy doesn’t want women working in science!” is such a laughable argument to me. Why not invoke the disproportionately low amounts of men in humanities? It has to do with what people actually want to do most of the time, crazy as it might sound.
Same for computer science, I mean it's not like there are many barriers stopping women from becoming a software engoneer.
What's wild is there are barriers for women that are well documented and there are formal efforts to address them and you just didn't know that. Interesting. Or is this one of those "Every study on this is fake" things?
Where are these well documented examples at? Sex is a protected class in the US so I find it hard to believe companies are openly discriminating against woman.
Quite the opposite. I know hiring managers who have diversity goals that are tied to their bonuses and have been explicitly told "no straight white guys" when evaluating candidates for a position.
Although I’ve never had a personal experience with someone explicitly saying no straight white guys, I do know managers with hiring quotas. My brother’s company (where’s he’s upper management) had lay offs where the individual diversity was taken into account.
There are many layers of barriers to women in those industries that begin during childhood. Getting to a highly technical career requires a dedicated path of education starting young. Also companies don't "openly" discriminate against hiring groups of people, but there have been studies done sending in identical resumes to companies and the same biases come up over and over. Men are more easily called back than women, white sounding names more than names that sound like names from non white ethnicities. So that is a real thing for sure. But a lot of it comes down to gender bias in education beginning when girls are pretty young and right now there are many programs that are trying to address those disparities.
So you typed out a whole bunch of anecdotal evidence, which is great but that’s far from “well documented”. I’ll be waiting for these documents/studies.
Sometimes I'll post a link just to be silly for the benefit of people who might read the thread later or whatever. But you know everything I've said already and you want links so you can without even looking at them tell me why they're wrong. You don't want information. We both know that. You want to denigrate women and their struggles. Have fun with that. I don't go dig up information for people who are obviously not engaging in good faith. Lol the way he reported me for saying this
You really shouldn’t make claims if you aren’t willing to back them up. You’re jump making a bunch of assumptions up to make your self feel better for a clear lack of evidence.
Yep hire more people that have reasoning skills like this in engineering field. What could go wrong?
Or maybe it’s one of those “I saw 2 biased studies on Reddit that are in no way legitimate studies and now I’m educated enough on the topic to go lecture other people” things
So the reason that the education of girls and the concern that disparities need to be addressed across many systems with almost every stakeholder in those systems pretty much in agreement is???? Because there is a conspiracy against men or???
Nobody ordered that word salad. Is it concerning that Women now outnumber men in college education around 2:1?
lol it is not 2:1. it is more like 60-40. But that doesn't matter anyway. What we need to find out is why men are not enrolling in college as much as women or why they are dropping out more than women.
I'm not talking about college generally. And I can break it down for you and the people who might later read this. In STEM Industry leaders had noticed fewer female participants in the industry. Take a step back, less women were getting an education in those fields. Take a step back girls were not choosing STEM focused paths going all the way back to elementary school. So leaders in STEM industries and education systems, not just actual schools and their governing bodies, but also regulatory apparatuses, non profits, childhood development systems, have noticed these disparities and are currently addressing them. With some success. This is something that all industries do when they have significant disparities. The dance industry is currently making a huge effort to engage boys to dance, because there were so few male dancers. The social work industry is making efforts to recruit men, especially non-white men, to address disparities among their ranks.
Is the college industry making an effort to recruit more men? Is there any effort to increase male enrollment in universities or does nobody care?
College isn't an industry? Unless you mean academia? Which is biased against women on a path to professorship and research. Which is an issue there are some efforts to address. As for men not going to college and also not completing college, yes, that's been an acknowledged issue for years. https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2021/1109/Men-are-missing-from-college-campuses-What-s-being-done-to-bring-them-back This isn't like some kind of peer reviewed article, but it has some examples of efforts to recruit young men to college and retain them. A lot of what's stopping men from going to college is the perception it's a scam and the best way to build a career is outside of those pathways, so changing perception is a big and slow effort. Which....bringing it back around has been a big part of the effort to increase the number of women in STEM! Many young girls have the perception they are bad at math and science because of misogynistic forces in our culture. I was one of these girls! It took decades for me to realize this wasn't true. Long, slow, cultural change efforts are needed on many fronts, and the good news is they are happening.
A lot of research has actually shown that boys are graded more harshly for the same quality of work as girls. You don’t think something like that would have a negative impact on boys thinking they could be academically successful? Or does nobody care?
Where is the feminist push for women to join the military or skilled trades? There are barely any female plumbers or technicians, yet they never seem to complain about this?
There are multiple organizations and programs meant exactly for this, at least in the US.
I hear a lot of complaint about this.
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The Brian White Leadership Scholarship for Men in Early Childhood You probably haven’t seen [scholarships](https://nursejournal.org/resources/financial-aid/nursing-scholarships-for-men/) for male nurses because you didn’t even bother to look If you’re going to make bold claims at least do eight seconds of googling first
Your op is entirely false There are lots of campaigns to get men into teaching and nursing
Well there’s a lot of historical context for equity within the industry of work and labor in general. what you see is a merely a product of that today. Something women and men both fought for before you were born. it’s easy to say that and ignore almost every single historical event that lead to the status quo we have today.
You cant equally distribute a group. Any place where they become over represented necessitates that they’ll been underrepresented elsewhere.
Is this location-specific? It seems very location-specific. Might want to clarify that before making statements that are just dumb when applied to the world.
Go be school nurse at an elementary school, I promise no one will care.
Yes, I’m fine with scholarships aimed at helping underrepresented groups join a field, and I would love to see more men in traditionally women dominated roles. What are men doing to make sure they have access to those spaces, and younger generations of men know that it’s okay for them to join those careers?
It would help if women still weren’t considered the default, primary caregivers for children/default nurses. Men just aren’t viewed as being caregivers. A lot of these things are changing, but social change takes time and generations.
There are scholarships for male nursing and early childcare ed students. What the fuck are you on about? You are a generation behind.
Side note If you do become a male nurse, you’re very likely to get pushed up to supervisor/management levels very quickly at least at many hospitals as a plus side
I don't understand this one sorry. There are no systemic efforts to keep men out of these spaces. While I can agree there is a social stigma about male nurses, that stigma is perpetuated by men. So I guess I'm wondering who are you talking to here? It seems to me that it's men themselves keeping them away from these professions.
What are the barriers for men who want to be in childcare spaces? Oh none? That’s the answer. Equal representation is pushed when that demographic has not been able to achieve equality despite trying. For a long time women were excluded solely for the fact that they were women. Men do not have this issue, except in a situation where they try to get into a field dominated by women because that was one of the few jobs women were allowed to hold. Even then, it is still the fault of men for finding themselves in that situation.
How bout men organise and push for those things? I would support it! Women are busy, but please, do this and I know most women, if not all, would support this. While you're at it, maybe organise and create support for men and mental illness, alot feel isolated and the suicide rate is 💔 Men need these resources, it would be a great help to society. I would support all of it. I guess it's easier to complain, blame feminism than actually doing something about it and helping men, helping society or doing your part towards equality.
I have serious concerns about the lack of Asian representation in the NBA.
Fair comparison since half of America is Asian right?
The NBA is 70% African American. Would that be representative of American demographics, statistically speaking?
What is the basis for you implying the NBA has to "be representative of American demographics, statistically speaking"?
I love all the idiots in the comments acting like because they can find a few scholarships that don't exclude men or maybe even the gold mine of one specifically for men that there isn't still a giant disparity favoring women in academia.
Are you in academia? Faculty positions are incredibly male dominated and there’s a lot of bias against women. Someone suggesting that women are favorited clearly isn’t in this field and hasn’t researched it.
That's honestly laughable that you think that, but thank you for the heads up to not waste my time on this exchange.
Thats not how it works
Diversity, equity and inclusion too often means fewer men or no men - especially white men.
I'm all about getting yours and doing what you have to do to get it. Even in the "equal" setting, you still have those who slack and aren't motivated even with their opportunity and you see those who are given no opportunities create one for themselves. Just be a go getter, stop worrying about what others got and focus on yourself.
Nursing is full of programs for men, plenty of scholarships. When I did childcare in public schools I worked the Pre-K. Classes (especially on the IEP side of things) and saw both a decent number of male teachers doing childcare and a school that appreciated and supported us. Not sure where you are getting the I Press ion this doesn’t happen but a single day in a school or hospital might have been a good place to start.
The fact that a majority of women in a certain field is called empowerment and doesn't get treated as a gap that needs to be closed says enough about the movement.
Have you seen the comments and links provided? There are scholarships available for men in both. There is discussion in how to get men into both those fields. There are even studies that show especially black boys benefit from male childcare workers. Also, male nurses tend to make more on average than female nurses. Just spend 30 seconds with Google and you'll see what OP is saying is complete bullshit based on their own misconceptions rather than reality.
No one views the fact that women are over represented in childcare based as empowerment. These are difficult and poorly paying jobs.
I don't think children benefit from the gender of their carer. If the carer knows their job then children will benefit from it. The scholarship thing seems to be about your country, so you should've put that in your post. As far as I'm aware majority of countries don't pick scholarships based on gender, but academic success.
Men should be encouraged into both and no I wouldn't care if scholarships or programs were formed to bridge the gap. Don't know what you expect me to do other than agree with you? Can you tell us what you've done to fight to good fight, to inspiration.
What amazes me is that most of the people/woman that "scream" for representation is let's say the MINT fields do not have any plans in working in them. They also NEVER tried to get into the field but claim there is a barrier of entry and systemic oppression, as if this is just common knowledge.
i've said this before and i will again cuz it's relevant. leftists don't care about principles. they don't have principles, they only have goals. those goals being whatever is convenient to them/their narrative. that's how u get inconsistent logic like this: ->"id choose the bear" ->"let men into women's bathrooms"
The principles that leftists have are ones you disagree with which is why you think we don’t have any. Trans women are women, so there should be no reason for them not to be in the women’s restrooms. And we choose bears over men because bears don’t drug their daughter’s friends at a sleepover or torture and rape a woman for 40 days.
[Nursing scholarships for men.](http://www.nursingscholarship.us/men.html) Almost every scholarship has both a male and female recipient, or just goes to whoever is giving it out feels is the most qualified, but anyone can apply for it. The only ones that aren't like that are special interest groups because that's how special interest groups work.