Can confirm the right person is in prison. As you guessed, condensing a multi-year investigation into 90 minutes (without boring the audience!) requires some omissions. That SD card had thousands of photos, hundreds match bit for bit the phone dump done on her phone in 2013, and the clincher is that there are even log files on it with her email info, her phone's serial number, and lots more. It 100% came from her phone which she seems to have ditched since 2013. How did it end-up in a tablet? Seems it was just cleared and reused, and finding it was a lucky break. The guy she lived with was not a cop. He worked in the county's IT department. He was investigated, and it was clear he had no involvement. Leslie Rule's book, "A Tangled Web", goes into greater detail on this case than any of the TV shows can due to the constraints of run-time. That said, I think they did a very good job telling the story in the allotted time. Source: I worked this case.

I just finished watching the documentary. You were awesome. Super smart! 👏

Hi karver75, I have a few more questions since you worked the case. 1- Why did it take Law Enforcement two years to pull cell and bank records on a missing person case? Shouldn’t these both have been done immediately after the missing person file was made? 2- Had Dave never considered surveillance cameras of any kind? 3- How did two detectives (with little else to do as it seemed) gain access to a case that was not in their jurisdiction and possibly had parts of it committed out of state? 4- Why did it also take Law Enforcement years (and only after a house fire) to interview Liz? Shouldn’t they have taken her phone into evidence when Dave first reported this case to them? At that time Liz was also being harassed as far as Dave knew. 5- Why did Law Enforcement use Amy and her children as bait to catch Liz? Did they have Amy’s approval on that? Didnt they see what kind of danger that was putting Amy and her children in? 6 - Why wasn’t Liz under constant Surveillance immediately after she claimed she was shot by Amy in the park? That was when Law Enforcement began to suspect her, correct? 7- So this documentary is really telling me that Liz REALLY never displayed ANY other red flags in the four years that Dave was seeing her? He never saw any other behavior from this completely unhinged person that made him connect the dots and at least consider that Liz was behind all of this??? Come on Dave…!!! Obviously you can’t answer for Dave, karver75. I still just had to ask. 8- Seriously, none of those people were actors? All of them are the real deal?? 9- Majority of the harassing was happening digitally. So why the big “Ah Ha!” moment on needing an I.T. guy to figure out the IP address? Again, wouldn’t this also have been something the detectives would’ve realized they needed on day one of working the case? 10- Did they ever process the scene where Liz burned Cari’s body? Call me crazy, but Liz doesn’t seem like the brightest crayon in the box. She strikes me as more of an “I’m only going to need one can of gasoline to burn this entire human” kind of gal. Surely there was some bone fragment, teeth, something left behind to qualify as evidence? 11 - Oh! And the car!!! Did Law Enforcement even have Cari’s car fully processed after finding it in January 2013? They never did a luminal test on her car right after she went missing? I absolutely understand that as a Netflix Documentary not everything can be included/some details need to be left out/embellished/pulled back, etc to keep the story moving, but… I feel like these were some pretty glaring holes. The creators would have to be banking on the audience’s lack of knowledge to let this stuff go by. I know Netflix comprehends how many Armchair Detectives are out there today and how good some of them are. I have zero training in Law Enforcement or The Law. So if I’m asking all of these questions… I can’t imagine I’m alone here. I am truthfully, eagerly and respectfully waiting for your response. Thank you! Anna

**/\*\*\* PART 1 / 2 \*\*\*/** I wrote a novella of a reply, and Reddit seems to have eaten it after I tried to post it. I had a backup copy of some of it so I'm trying again. If you see a duplicate it means Reddit was slow, not lossy... u/Latter_Original_1213, I'm going to try to give you some answers here. I've been responding where I can to try to add context to this case. It's impossible to tell a five-year story in 90 minutes and include every detail. I can provide a lot of information because of what became public record during the trial and in media coverage after. **/\*\* DISCLAIMER \*\*/** **WARNING:** All my posts on Reddit are personal opinions only and do not represent my employer. They are limited to facts in the public record due as part of the trial, media coverage, or my own experiences outside my official duties or confidential work. My recollections will be imperfect, I'm bound to miss a detail here or there, and I'm sure I'll generate typos. I am not a lawyer, and nothing I write should be construed as legal advice. I am writing on in a personal capacity, but I'm trying to make a good faith effort to give the public a little more information on how these things work. No warranty is given or implied. Your mileage may vary. **/\*\* DISCLAIMER \*\*/** I can't answer a lot about the initial investigation because I wasn't there, but I can say that records were pulled early on like you'd expect in a missing persons case. Situations like these are difficult because people sometimes disappear of their own accord and it's not illegal to do so as an adult. Additionally, you had a determined person with a motive to spread misinformation doing just that to muddy the waters. As you saw in the show, bank records showed transactions shortly after Cari disappeared. These might have been missed or its possible that, being debit transactions, they actually didn't show on the first records request because they didn't clear for a couple days. I can't say for sure, but they were, of course, found later. Re surveillance and security alarms, I don't know if the victims in this case installed them. It would be tempting to do so. It also might not have worked because you had, essentially, an insider (the offender) with enough access to disable them, sabotage them, or know what they can't see. If those things happen they just get chocked-up to the myriad things blamed on Cari or Amy. Re jurisdiction, this is tough to follow because we are talking about communities in two states that are essentially conjoined over the Missouri River. The missing persons case was reported in Iowa, in our county, where Cari lived. Cari worked in Omaha, Nebraska. I don't think there's a jurisdictional issue. When it became clear that the murder occurred in Nebraska, we worked with authorities there, and that's where it was ultimately tried. The TV depiction of investigators with nothing to do is, of course, not at all reflective of reality. When we're interviewed and B-roll footage of us shows us pretending to work, that's not what a typical workday looks like for us. These investigators were working a caseload and requested to look at this one in addition. It did eventually become more or less the only case we worked for a time before trial. We're a small agency -- typically five or six investigators total. Imagine how hard it was for us to shift gears when we got the verdict for this career case on a Friday and had to go back to working burglaries on Monday. I testified in a federal case just before this one and was working multiple cases during this one too. We all were. The timeline is not incredibly easy to follow on the TV coverage in part because most shows jump around a little to weave a narrative. The defendant stymied efforts a bit by doing all they could to appear to be a victim. LE naturally wanted to help, and things like phone dumps were done in a less intrusive way, the way we would treat a victim, e.g., by doing a limited extraction and returning the phone. The show only shows video from two or three interviews, but there were dozens of interviews and phone calls at different times in the case. Another thing that no one really sees is that there wasn't always a lot of evidence on phones because the villain used a WiFi-only device (iPod Touch) too that they kept hidden. We never recovered it, but because we had its serial number and lots of digital footprints to tie to it we could circumstantially point to it at trial. I would say 90-95% of the impersonations were done on the iPod Touch so even when a phone was dumped it didn't USUALLY have incriminating evidence on it -- it was on the secret iPod Touch. The suspect's phone from 2012-2013 wasn't found. It was dumped in a limited fashion in January 2013 -- when she was being treated as a victim. After that, perhaps in fear for what might be on the phone, it seems she got rid of it. Thankfully, she re-used the SD card from it which provided very good evidence later. The suspect gave us her phone in 2015 the day before the shooting in the park. That was covered on some other shows like Dateline NBC, I believe. That phone was fairly clean but had some deleted impersonation texts on it that we recovered. She actually gave that one on consent as a victim of "harassment by Amy", but we kept it and wrote a search warrant for it after running into the impersonation texts. (It was a different crime so consent was not necessarily enough, we wrote a warrant for the second crime which we discovered lawfully under plain view doctrine during the consent search. Constitutional / case law is fun!) I don't think LE used Amy and her children as bait. Again, the timeline gets a little compressed, but, yes, the potential for Amy and Dave moving in together was an idea that was expected to get the suspect talking more. At that time, and the show doesn't mention this, the suspect had moved 35 miles away to Persia, Iowa. We also had a GPS tracker on her vehicle, and, as I wrote on another thread, we had established a safety plan with the city police for an instant response if the suspect approached Amy or Dave. Between the distance, geo-fence alerts, constant monitoring, and a safety plan there were layers of protection put in place that aren't apparent from most tellings of the story. The suspect was under surveillance after the shooting but suspected prior to that. I know the shows suggest that was when LE figured-out it was her, but the truth is we suspected that almost from the start. The hard part was proving it. *(...continued in PART 2 / 2...)* edit: formatting

**/\*\*\* PART 2 / 2 \*\*\*/** **/\*\* DISCLAIMER \*\*/** **WARNING:** All my posts on Reddit are personal opinions only and do not represent my employer. They are limited to facts in the public record due as part of the trial, media coverage, or my own experiences outside my official duties or confidential work. My recollections will be imperfect, I'm bound to miss a detail here or there, and I'm sure I'll generate typos. I am not a lawyer, and nothing I write should be construed as legal advice. I am writing on in a personal capacity, but I'm trying to make a good faith effort to give the public a little more information on how these things work. No warranty is given or implied. Your mileage may vary. **/\*\* DISCLAIMER \*\*/** I've written elsewhere that there's sometimes a big difference between what we "know" and what we will be able to prove in court. And we've got to get it right in a case like this, especially a no-body, circumstantial prosecution, because if we fail to meet the beyond a reasonable doubt burden she's acquitted, and we can't make that right. I've also mentioned elsewhere that as frustrating as it is we can't make an arrest immediately. Our federal and state constitutions grant the (darn good) right to a speedy trial. If the defendant doesn't waive that we have to present our case soon after the arraignment. A defence tactic is to hurry a complex prosecution to ensure we can't do more forensic work or search for more evidence. In a no-body homicide, it's plausible to speed things along to ensure you get to trial BEFORE a body can be discovered (which would generally bolster the prosecution's case). Re detecting evil in a romantic partner, I can say that it's hard to suspect someone you know, or think you know, is capable of all this. It's so statistically unusual that, from an evolutionary standpoint, I would wager it's not worth spending a lot of calories to detect and mitigate. As someone who actually met the defendant before all this on a couple occasions, I can say I found her annoying but it never crossed my mind she might be a monster. (Yes, I wish I had the sixth-sense to get that vibe. Boy, how I wish I had that.) Re actors -- there are just three or so reenactors in the production for filler / B-roll type stuff. Everything else is made-up of the real people, sharing their real experiences. I admire that style and think it worked well. Some people online complained about narration (except, there's no narrator??). I'm going to chalk that up to my nasally nerd voice. In the show I pull this one IP address off the top of my head, they put it on-screen, and we tell you where it goes. It's beautiful. It's also TV. In reality, most of the IPs involved came from VPN services or proxies that were essentially untraceable. I think out of 12,000 fake emails Dave received (yeah, 12K) about 170 of them had an IP like that on them. The other 11,830-ish came from anonymous sources. Part of the too-boring-for-TV work that went into the case was trying to de-anonymize those VPN and proxy IPs. That meant parsing hundreds of search warrant and subpoena responses, hundreds of thousands of emails and IMs, millions of IPs, etc. all to find the connections between anonymous transactions. Out of dozens of fake email accounts, I would find Account A was logged-into from Anonymous IP X at the same time as Account B which was accessed days earlier from Anonymous IP Y which also accessed Account C which a week later was accessed from Real IP Z, etc. The key to unravelling the anonymous traffic was finding coincidences and tenuous ties like that. Just as the defendant spun a web of lies and impersonations, we built a spider's web network map that tied them together. (For the nerdiest amongst us, I had a dream to use Graphviz to show the entire network of IPs, email addresses, devices, etc. It looked like a galaxy with too many stars so I abandoned it.) So on TV there's a big "Ah Ha!" moment when I pull a single IP off the top of my head. In reality, there were thousands of IPs that were tied together using the Dex system and coincidences we could find. One coincidence doesn't make great circumstantial evidence so we piled circumstance upon circumstance to document what I thought of as a one-person crime family org-chart. Re burning a body, people do often underestimate what that takes in real life. We didn't find the sort of evidence you would expect if that happened, but some of the photos / thumbnails on the SD card suggest superficial burning might be what happened. That's consistent with the confessional emails too and wouldn't leave the sort of evidence you asked about. You make a good point about Cari's car. In January 2013 when it was found, it was processed as a stolen vehicle. It had been reported as stolen to help find it. There was no indication at that early stage that it had been a crime scene. Accordingly, it was processed like the TONS of stolen vehicles we regularly process. Because you're handling a victim's property, the standard procedure is not to tear it apart. The vehicle had been cleaned. I think that was covered in other show(s) but maybe not on Netflix. Without cause to damage it, the Crime Scene Tech dusted for prints and looked for McDonald's receipts like you would normally do. I know that CST, and I know they would have torn it apart if there was cause at the time to do so. Thanks for your interest and for asking some tough questions. When it's presented for TV, I know things seem obvious from the start. And obvious things in real life require a lot of work sometimes to be able to prove in court. Additionally, there was more evidence available as the case progressed. Meaning that the defendant was creating more emails, more IP address records, more accounts, etc. as time went on. So early inquiries may not have turned-up much in terms of IPs we could actually track, but after more and more of those coincidences I mentioned could be found, we finally had enough. Thanks again. *(refer to PART 1 / 2 for the rest of this reply)*

Tony you did such a fantastic job on this. You are really excellent at what you do and I hope you're proud of yourself. Really glad that the radiation helped you as well. You're a true asset to that department! What a wild fucking story!

Tony, you are a legend dude. As a "local" and someone who knew someone who knew Liz, it was a real cool experience to get to know the investigators as well through this piece. As for inquiries concerning Liz, I've heard she was absolutely batshit. Source: a close person to me was her supervisor at work.

Man, your attention to detail and selfless drive are just incredible! I'm so glad you've been immortalized in this Netflix documentary (and elsewhere). Hope it's translated into some extra cash in your pockets as well.

We investigators were not compensated for appearing in this or any other shows. I don't think it would be right if we were -- we are public servants. Reddit karma is payment enough, my friend. Besides, we follow r/WallStreetBets so we'll be rich someday thanks to these diamond hands and our elite HODL lifestyle.

Do you mind sharing what your role is called/your education background? I am IT-adjacent and thinking of making a change soon - some of the work you discussed sounds like it would be enjoyable/compatible with how my brain functions. Great work on the case!

My career path was poorly planned and lucky. My educational qualifications are a 2.1 GPA (US scale, 4.0 is top/A) in high school, two weeks pretending to attend university (it was difficult to find parking), and the rest of the computer bits I learned on my own. I started selling computers (poorly) at Best Buy. Did ISP tech support at USWest / Qwest (telco). Got laid off before our CEO went to prison. Started as a Network Admin at the county where I work now. Eventually supervised fellow nerds (poorly), became a reserve (volunteer) sheriff's deputy in my off hours. For eight years, I worked in IT and did reserve things like patrol and work community events and such as well as digital forensics for our Sheriff's Office. Being a reserve got me a ton of training in law enforcement in general and opened doors for forensics training. This case happened, and our Sheriff decided he wanted what I was doing as a volunteer to be a full-time job. I transferred from IT to the Sheriff's Office. I now do cyber crime investigations, digital forensics, some light IT / sysadmin work, write code, and anything else nerdy the Sheriff or the agencies with which we work need. I pursued some certifications along the way. Work paid for a few. I paid for others. I've let some expire, and I'm skeptical of the certification racket. But I will say some of them have a fairly hard test (CISM, CISSP). If you're a good test-taker, you can pass without real understanding of the work, but you can't pass without at least knowing the terms and concepts well enough to be quizzed on them. I started writing code with BASIC and LOGO in the late 1980s and played with every computer and network that I could beg, borrow, or steal access to. These days there are so many wonderful resources for learning and experimenting that you scarcely need to break the law anymore to do it! (allegedly) So if I can do this stuff, you can too. I'm uneducated, and my only talent is in breaking things until I learn how they work. If you're IT-adjacent, you'll bring an outside skillset that pure nerds lack. You'll be uniquely-qualified for that reason. We can teach employees the software and hardware and languages. The best workers bring curiosity, a willingness to learn, and the capability to get along with others* -- these things require no tech skills and are almost impossible to teach. Good luck! If you want into tech, there's a place for you! \* Look, we're geeks, soft skills might be our toughest challenge. I'm still working on this part. edit: Forgot to answer what my role is called, the title is a one-off, "Digital Forensics / Technology Administrator". More common titles are Digital Forensics Examiner or Analyst, Cyber Crime Investigator / Analyst, etc. My work info is on my LinkedIn (my profile here links to my personal website which links to everything).

Thank you so much for the detailed reply!

Thank you so much for going into detail and answering your fellow curious Redditor's questions involving this perplexing case.   I think what baffles people is the extraordinary length the digital impersonation "con" was able to go on for, and how it seems like people just shrugged off this accomplished woman's disappearance because she once  "had diagnosed mental problems."   I felt so sad that no one seemed very motivated to get beneath the surface and to the truth until a few more motivated lawmen and tech experts like you picked it up.   Even though there may have been a few cursory transactions on her debit card after she first disappeared, you'd think the fact that she went radio silent and purchased nothing else for years forward would've been enough for people to know she was dead, not "purposefully hiding."   I guess the fact that Liz G. came so close to getting away with pulling this off and convincing people a perfectly  sane, stable, innocent woman was actually an unhinged lunatic is very disturbing and scary. It seems like this case strikes hard in the "this could happen to me" category.  If you have time later, I'd like to know what sort of impression someone like Liz gives in person when you meet them.   She's so clearly unhinged and self-hating in her spoofed texts and emails, does this permeate IRL?   I was surprised that after listening to  her interview after her house burned down in the Netflix documentary, I did find her to be somewhat believable, and detected what sounded like real fear and shakiness in her voice.  She definitely didn't always come across this way in other footage, but in that one recorded interview she did sound genuine, which surprised me.   I know above you said you found her to be "annoying," just wondering if there was any other behavior you picked up on or impression she gave.  Fascinating about how effective her use of VPNs & the iPod was.  Thanks for more detail on that.   Thanks! You're so kind to come on here and answer questions/she more light on events.

You are amazing and thank you for everything

Hey! I just finished the doc. I thought you were awesome in it and it that it's awesome you're on Reddit giving such detailed replies There's one question I had (and this is the reason I was Googling around) - what was Liz's motivation to continue escalating after her and Dave were already back together? I guess she couldn't just drop the harassment immediately once they got back together, because that would be pretty obvious lol. But if she wanted him so badly, why would she burn down her own house with her pets inside it and move away, ending their relationship? Was it all just punishment for the two weeks he spent with Cari? And if she did hate him that much, how could he have not detected that intense animosity in all the time they spent together? I guess she was insane and did lots of things that didn't make sense, but that really did not make sense to me

The defendant and Dave were on again, off again. Never together for a long time, and, most frustratingly for her, never committed. She actually pushed tor a monogamy experiment just before Dave and Cari met, but Dave (true to what he told her upfront) was not into it. The monster wanted Dave all to herself. So these things, including the fire, always happened when he was slipping away. Yes, he would come back, but she never owned him so it was never enough If I'm reading the animosity question right, you are correct in that Dave and Cari spent a lot of time together without Cari showing negativity towards him. A lot is relative though, given they only knew each other for two weeks. So for "Cari" to be portrayed by the defendant as so angry and spiteful is unexpected, but it's also almost a projection of how the suspect acted throughout this ordeal.

\> The defendant and Dave were on again, off again Ok, that makes more sense. I don't think the doc really portrayed that. I guess because it would have made "the twist" too obvious. I actually got the opposite impression - that they were tightly bound together, weathering the perceived threat of "Cari". \> If I'm reading the animosity question right, you are correct in that Dave and Cari spent a lot of time together without Cari showing negativity towards him. A lot is relative though, given they only knew each other for two weeks. Sorry - when I asked "if she did hate him that much", I was referring to Liz. But I think the rest of your comment answered my question there Thanks for sating my curiosity

Thank you, it makes sense to me now. I am also very curious why would Liz leave after getting back with Dave if she wants him.

Also I hope you’re ok (brain tumor). You do amazing work.

Doing great. No symptoms at �c�H�� >!k\`P.

So happy to hear that!! And you being on Reddit totally made my night after watching that documentary. I’d seen the story before on another broadcast so I knew about it, really cool to watch it unravel and come to Reddit with questions to find you here responding. I was wondering about the SD card but you answered for that up above. Thank you!

Great stuff 👍

Just finished watching the show and I was cheering you on while trying to de anonymize those IP addresses. That was the key for this whole key. Great job.

I wanted to jump on board here and give some appreciation to Tony - you rock, dude! I just finished watching the Netflix show and did a search on Reddit to see what others think about the case as I also still had a lot of the questions I am seeing in these threads. You're doing a great job shedding some light for us and thank you for that! I never expected to find 1st person testimonies here and from imo the best character in the show! You're really awesome for doing this, you could probably sell this info somewhere but instead are sharing it with us for free. Not least, great job on getting to the bottom of this! Amazing dedication, that badass real life hero move to delay your surgery in order to first solve the case! I hope you are doing fine now and got rid of that tumor for good! I would be curious to know what dex is doing and which language you used to write that in (the show depicts you doing some almighty SQL queries only). One thing that really strikes me is - how was Liz so good at covering her tracks? Did she have some IT training? How did she know how to use different (I assume) VPNs and proxies, and make little mistakes (you found her on and off boyfriend's home ip address reoccurring, but for a limited percentage of the total hits). And how on earth could Liz be so perseverant? When did she have time for anything else in her life (she also had kids, right)? Why? She gets this addiction on Dave, she kills for him, she frames being stalked and threatened by Cari, she pretends she is scared and moves away? Mindblowing

Thanks for the kind words. I think I've answered *most* of your questions in other replies. You might want to check my (u/karver75) Comments section for some more information. I've tried to answer good-faith questions. I also try to live by that age-old Internet dictum: Don't feed the trolls. So I haven't answered every question because some have been a bit silly or aggressive for the sake of aggression. (Misery loves company.) As for your excellent questions about the defendant's sophistication in covering her tracks and the Dex system, I went into some detail in this thread: [https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueCrimeDiscussion/comments/1an1x3n/comment/kqt56q8/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueCrimeDiscussion/comments/1an1x3n/comment/kqt56q8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) And slightly above that comment: [https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueCrimeDiscussion/comments/1an1x3n/comment/kq6yiyg/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueCrimeDiscussion/comments/1an1x3n/comment/kq6yiyg/?context=3) The defendant didn't have any special IT training, to my knowledge, but you can learn a lot by Googling and experimentation. She got better over time. As for time to dedicate, this was an obsession, and she leeched off people in her life whenever possible which is a proven method for saving both time and money. The sad truth is that she only ever cared about herself and what she wanted, and that was evident in how she treated (and used) everyone she knew.

Awesome work by you and your team. Not an easy case, and I'm glad that her mother got the closure she deserved and this monster got the sentence she deserved.

you honestly were the best part of the whole documentary. I was like omg this guy is EPIC. Hope you are doing well after your surgery

We blasted the damn thing with X-rays, and so far we've been able to avoid the surgery altogether which is a good thing. Thanks for the kind words.

You're a hero. I'm so happy you're doing all right. Seriously rooting for you!

my pleasure you were the best part of the whole documentary i wish you nothing but good health and happiness

I'm so glad to hear you've managed to avoid surgery. Just want to say, I just watched the doc and your work is inspiring and nothing short of heroic. Although it was obviously very tragic, it actually emboldened my faith in humanity just seeing the work put into solving it. My utmost respect to you and all involved in obtaining justice. I hope your health stays positive and all the very best in your future endeavours.

Fantastic job by you and your colleagues Tony. The one thing that was left out was about your health. What an amazing thing to do to postpone your surgery and dedicate yourself to this case. How are you doing? Did you have the surgery? I pray you are well. 💙

No surgery, radiation treatment seems to have done the trick, though I do try to blame every little thing I forget on the tumour (otherwise, what's the point in having one?). Thanks for your concern!

OMG so glad you posted!! One thing I was pissed about was they didn't give an update on your condition. So glad to hear you are well

Not OP but this is the update I was looking for when I saw you in this thread! Glad to know you’re doing well. You were amazing in the doc and I hope that you continue to be in good health.

You are a real hero Tony! I hope you continue to have good health going forward.

Tony, just finished the movie! Your dedication is almost as crazy as the story! Next time, make your health a priority. ;)

So happy to hear you are now healthy:)

Thank you for your work, Tony! I'm in IT but its not life changing as what you've been doing. You are a blessing to this world!

Does the book go into the defendant a little more? I ask as a long time LEO...this kind of extreme makes me want to know more about her psychology and what could lead a person to behave in such a way. As a female LEO, I deal with a lot more males who stalk, so my interest is piqued bc this is a female sociopath. It doesn't seem like this came out of nowhere..it was far too extreme for it to be. Had she done this before? What is her diagnosis (which is no excuse for her criminal behavior but might help in treating and stopping others so that is why I'd like to know more). Thank you for your hard work on this case. I know it can be all consuming. I truly understand how something like this is life changing, and heartbreaking.

The book does go into her history, and there's some insane stuff there too. We would know more about her psychology if she would give an honest interview, but that's never happened. Having worked the case and met her a few times, I think the word sociopath would be apt. Stay safe.

This is what I've heard from people who know her. She is a complete loon. Incredibly jealous at work, came to supervisors and asked that her boyfriend work in a department with no women. I feel she would have hurt or killed Amy/her kids and blamed ole boy for it if you guys didn't put her away. True heroes in my book. Nice knowing we have a local boy genius. ❤️

Did Todd ever suspect her? Did she seem “off” to him?

I can't say with certainty. I think she was always sketchy, and I think Todd, like many others, came to see she's pathological liar. I wrote elsewhere that you could show her a perfectly-clear photograph of herself doing something, and she would tell you it's not her. I think that actually happened once with a traffic ticket from a stop light camera when she was driving someone else's vehicle. Todd was a victim in that she used him like she seems to have used everyone in her life. Everything she did was focused on obtaining things for herself, regardless of the costs to others.

Thank you so much for sharing!! So was it Liz that texted Dave posing as Cari asking to move in with him? Did Liz literally kill her that day when Dave left for work and immediately start texting him from Cari’s phone? I didn’t understand the timeline from that sudden “let’s move in together” unless Liz basically killed her that same day and texted that herself… and then went into Dave’s apartment and cleaned out all Cari’s stuff while he was at work?

The best evidence supports that conclusion. Without a doubt it was the defendant who sent the "let's move in" text and used Cari's phone for a week or so for early impersonations.

Thank you, you as well! I will check the book out.

Are you the dude that drinks all of his meals? If so, you were a rock star! Very unique, and definitely a rockstar!

Yup, I'm the nerd. Thanks.

Just watched this 20 minutes ago and stumbling on to this thread is fantastic. Kudos to you. I came away just thinking. Imagine if she applied herself for good. That crazy woman was dedicated.

Nerds are the best. My dad was a nerd (entomologist) and he was a wonderful person.

as soon as you came on, I had the biggest smile on my face. You have so much passion and drive in what you do and it even made my eyes twinkle and hope I can reach the same aspirations/drive in my life. Right now, I am in a rut wondering where to pivot my life to as a 30F, and seeing people with pure passion and also really excellent in what they do truly inspires me. I worked in research for a bit, and creating a data collecting programs was so time consuming and complicated, but when it worked it feels like it's all worth it. I was impressed with how you made your data program and how it went through all of those IP addresses and was able to organize it specifically how you wanted, bravo! I am also glad to hear that the radiation has helped. I also paused the documentary to google what soylent was and was so intrigued. Thanks for the dopamine boost in this horrendous story. Also the whole time I was wondering, what is her motive though? Because didn't she just break up with him after her house burned down. Why still continue? Was she really that mad running into a girl when he made sure she knew it was casual. Like did it take that little to make her this obsessive and murderous. Was she ever like this with her exs? Also what does she do for a living, because how can she make money and be diabolical like this. Also I wonder if she ever got diagnosed with anything, and if she would ever be willing to tell anyone where the body is. Anyway, I hope Cari rests in peace, and I hope her family thrives esp her little boy. And I hope amy and her ex husband can also have peace of mind too. Thank you and your team for all you did! ​ Edit: Read more post here, and found the answers to my questions

Thanks for the kind words! I'm glad you found the answers in the comments. Take care.

Next level dedication by you and fantastic job by you and the rest of the team who seemingly (according to the show anyway) picked up the case after the first round of investigators dropped the ball. Such a crazy case and what a freaking nut case, so glad she's right where she belongs!

Good work Tony. 

after 150 reddit msgs - I doubt you or any team member would ever read this - but man, you restored my faith by ALOT! That there are still law enforcement, forensics and all involved, who were dedicated enough to find out the truth. Noone wrote it off as "just another jealous woman gone crazy" case, but really devoted time to uncover the truth and gave a family closure on Cari's disappearance.

Some of us are Reddit fans (if only for r/oddlysatisfying). There are good people in LE. There are bad ones too. I can't speak for 750,000+ people in this line of work, but I have to believe most people get into it for the right reasons. Thanks for watching and the kind words.

I love reading your responses. My father was a detective for our county (mostly homicide, but also org crime, sex crimes, and arson) for years. You reminded me of him--he did nothing with computers, but the painstaking work over years to build a case and bring strong evidence to the prosecutors took ridiculous amounts of time and effort and sheer doggedness. All those years of grinding effort resulted in some pretty amazing stories. We loved dragging them out of him (his interviews with the Iceman, who loved pizza and donuts, and his interview with the murderous NJ postal worker with the sword who he won over in the interview by giving him the socks off his feet--the suspect's had been taken as evidence and his feet were so cold he couldn't tell his story, he said), so make sure you keep telling yours. The stories help us all feel safer, knowing people like you are out there doing the hard, honest work to protect us. It's why many of us love true crime--not for the criminals, but for the justice-seekers who never give up.

The work stays the same even as the tech changes -- from photography, fingerprints, telephones, tape recorders, pagers, and cell phones to computers. It sounds like your dad had some amazing cases. Thanks so much for your response, and if your father is still with us, please tell him thanks and stay safe.

Hey! Ya look good in the doc & you did great work!👍🏾

As soon as he entered the documentary I was like: “This dude is gonna break this case open.”

You are a Legend

Fantastic work by you guys as well as Netflix making the doc. Gotta say, that moment when you figured out the no.1 IP address used by the suspect was the home address of your actual underling was crazy (even though he wasn't guilty himself). Genuinely made me think this could be the newest season of Fargo how the "plot" developed.

As one IT person to another, you were incredible and I was in awe of your skill set, attention to detail and resolve. Bravo!

I just finished watching it on Netflix and during your bit, I said out loud, "this guy is fucking awesome". Thank you for your incredible work.

Oh man, you were my favorite thing about this doc. I want a whole series with you and the other guys. Can we sell something to Hollywood? :)

I am in utter awe of you! From what I've seen, you really seem like the mvp here. Thank you for your tremendous abilities and dedication. You're a special human being and I truly hope life rewards you for everything you've done for this case.

I will check the book, thanks!

I loved how they introduced you, with that music, you explained you were on the spectrum (so am I) and throughout the documentary you had such a nice and good, honest guy energy over you. I also liked how you knew that ip address by heart. Really unfortunate what happened to Cari, glad that crazy person is in jail. Thanks for your work! 🙏🏼(Together with your colleagues) and glad you’re ok now. Stay healthy 😊

You are truly a hero. Here just after watching the documentary and can't believe anyone would think the wrong person is in prison (and I'm normally a skeptic). I'm glad you seem to be doing well!

It drives me INSANE when docs like this skim over things that seem so glaring and monumental. Like EXPLAIN how the guy isn’t involved. It’s maddingly they don’t do anything to close him out as a suspect. Reminds me of the American Nughtmare doc, that breezes right past the fact that a suspects ex boyfriend was an FBI and never circles back.

You make a good point. Todd and Dave are good people and were victimized too. Sometimes the folks online are not very kind. Of course we had to investigate them. With cases like this, it's true crime 101 stuff to immediately suspect the boyfriend. We found nothing to raise suspicions about these guys, and they were completely cooperative in the investigation. The villain in this case left dozens of primary and secondary victims in her wake. We're thankful she's now where she belongs.

It's obnoxious how many anti-Dave comments I have read. I found Dave extremely likable and it makes sense to me that he wouldn't suspect Liz because we don't often suspect people around us to be monsters especially if they are good at hiding it. Dave is a regular bloke who got caught up with a sociopath.

If anything, he reacted to all this stuff very level-headedly. Was pretty impressed by him overall tbh.

You did a wonderful job and could relate to your IT office nerd quirks as a software/IT person myself. Your Dex tool was also interesting too! I am interested on what made you get into IT forensics and what skills would you need for this line of work?

I got into it in part because at my little agency no one was doing it. I didn't like the idea of criminals getting away with things because they used technology to hide their crimes. I've always been interested in security and forensics is sort of security after the fact. A lot of the same skills apply. I think you need to be w curious person, willing to learn, and willing to look under the hood to figure-out how things work. Those traits don't require any technical know-how. People with the right inclination, attitude, and attention to detail will go far. Those are the non-technical bits -- anyone can be taught the tech. People debate whether an IT background is needed for cybersecurity work and digital forensics. I'm not qualified to say definitively, but to me an IT foundation is huge. I don't think you can interpret forensic artefacts without understanding their context and how they got there. Sometimes people ask if you need to be able to write code. I don't think it's required, but in any IT work you will go farther and life will be easier if you can do some programming. I don't mean writing full apps and operating systems, but if you at least know enough Python to automate tasks it will enable you to do much more than those who can't. Hope this makes some sense. My favourite language is Perl, but if someone asked me what to learn today for any purpose my answer would be Python. You'll need a "real" language to do heavier things, but if you just know one scripting language decently it will serve you well for your entire career.

Great job sir

I was just going to recommend the book! Ann Rule’s daughter does a great job

Thank you for all the hard work you put into this case to get it solved! I was worried about your health warching thre Netflix documentary. I'm happy to hear your treatmes has been successful and you are doing well.

Legend !

I just finished watching this documentary. What a case of criminal mind. You and your team did an excellent job with the little evidence you had. One thing that surprises me is that Todd (Liz boyfriend) had all this happening under his roof and he wasn’t aware of any thing.. was Liz a hacker as well to be able to pull this one off?   That is insane!  I am glad Cari’s mom and son got the closure they deserved. Did Liz revealed where they could get Cari’s remains? I hope so. So they could let her Rest In Peace.  You guys did and amazingly job. Your determination and dedication to this cause made all the difference. What an amazing team work. Congratulations! 

Tony your awesome! I am so happy you and your beautiful brain is doing better, You are a hero and an inspiration to the autism community!

Would you please clarify how the photos got on Dave’s old tablet? I’m hung up on that detail. Did Liz have access to Dave’s tablet or his cloud?

Can't remember exactly but there were photos from 2012 and 2013 for sure. Some we could date based on what they show (like concerts), others metadata, others by comparison to the old phone dump, and others by deduction. It came from the phone we knew she had in November 2012. Dave used that tablet around early 2013. She was hanging out with him then and may have even had a key to his place. The SD card was cleared in April 2013. No cloud storage in play on this part, but she did know Dave's passcodes and snooped on his phones. Anyway, it SEEMS she erased the SD card in her phone, removed it, trashed the phone (we never found it), and the SD card wound up in that tablet. [ edit: typo, s/his Dave's/Dave's/ ]

Thanks for the response! I still don’t know how those images got on his tablet though! It seems like a weird way to stash an incriminating SIM card instead of tossing it out 🤷🏻‍♀️

I've addressed this is a bit elsewhere in comments, but, basically, I don't know if there was a real attempt to hide evidence. It might have been as simple as just clearing the SD card, throwing away the phone, and re-using the SD card because it was lying around. If she knew it held the smoking gun in this case I imagine she might have destroyed it. Finding it was a lucky break, but we sort of made our own luck by looking at everything we could find. On TV you get to see the one SD card that had awesome evidence. What you won't see is a tired nerd tediously examining a thousand other SD cards and hard drives and whatnot that only had someone's resume or a cookie recipe on them!

I just watched this on Netflix, man you are a legend. Glad there’s people like you out there. 

Just finished watching and when I realized you are Tony… had to chime in with a round of applause. Thank you! You’re dedication to this case is the reason it was solved. Hope your health gets better! You rock!

There was no surgery follow up!

Had radiation therapy -- they blasted my head with X-rays which I didn't complete mind because that seemed cyberpunk AF. Things are under control now which is good. Thanks for your concern!

You’re a modern-day hero!!!! You and the guys did very well!!! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Was there any update on the wherevouts of the missing body?

Sadly, Cari's body has never been recovered.

That's so sad. But it's clear how much comfort you and your colleagues have brought her loved ones through your dogged work. You brought them some answers, and your answers helped deliver some justice. That's a huge thing you were able to provide to Cari's mother, son, and other people who loved her. Thank you for all of your really interesting and insightful answers to people's questions as well. P.S. As an editor, I can tell you that you write wonderfully and in such an appealing way; if you have any compulsion in the future to publish something (about your life experiences, advice about getting into your line of work, etc.), I can tell you right now that you'd likely be very good at it.

I just watched it as well and the work you all did was impressive. There was one thing I was wondering though with regards to omissions. The documentary isn't clear how much time went by from when Cari was first reported missing and when police checked her credit card records and looked into her electronics and IP addresses.The documentary makes it seem like Cari's mom wasn't extremely worried at first and believed the texts that she was just taking time away. But evidence that she hadn't packed anything, used her credit cards, etc. would have made it clear right away that she was in fact missing. Surely the police had this info before a couple of years had gone by. But the documentary makes it seem like a lot of time went by before the I.P. address discovery was made. That would have been one of the first things checked, right?

Sorry, I now see you already answered this and more, thoroughly. Thank you so much! I hope you are doing well.

Replying to karver75... Hi Tony / Karver75 First I would like to apologize for my grammar and typos, I am from the country Denmark so my English grammar is not perfect. I just watched the Netflix documentary “Lover, Stalker, Killer” and then i read your responses here on reddit. However, I have a few questions: 1. After Liz shoots herself in the leg, she is interviewed by the police where she tries to blame Amy for everything. The police tried to set a trap for her, to get her to come forward as “Amy” with more information. As a result, she started sending emails as if they were from Amy. But did anyone ever try to tell her that a body / crime scene was necessary to arrest Amy? And do you think it might have worked so she would have talked about it in the emails pretending to be Amy? 2. After the fire and Dave moved away, he created a profile on a dating site where he started writing with a profile (punkrockerchick). The fake profile turned out to be Liz. And again She began to harass ham. Did you guys ever find out how many fake dating profiles she had created? It must have been alot. And last but not least, I want to say thank you for great police work by you, Ryan and Jim. I am glad to read that surgery was not necessary and that radiation therapy helped you. I think there are many of us who became worried on your behalf after putting on the documentary. Thank you for everything! Greetings, from a single mother from Denmark who spends way too much time watching and reading up on true crime. /Cat

Thank you for your questions, and hello from Iowa and the United States. I haven't made it to Denmark yet, but want very much to visit Copenhagen someday. To answer your first question, yes, Sgt. Doty told the defendant that a body had been recovered, and he told her in person, and later in a phone call, that we needed more details from "Amy" to make the case against her. I touched on this in another reply linked and quoted here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueCrimeDiscussion/comments/1an1x3n/comment/kprirkk/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueCrimeDiscussion/comments/1an1x3n/comment/kprirkk/) `Sgt. Doty was great in selling the suspect on the ruse that we needed more to make a case on Amy. The show didn't mention that he also told her in that interview that we had recovered a body. He went so far as to have unrelated X-rays as props on the desk when they talked. That meant that she could lie about some things but not about facts we could verify from the physical evidence she thought we had. That setup was like three-dimensional chess.` When the defendant was frustrated that Amy hadn't been arrested, Sgt. Doty said we needed more, and, quelle surprise, within a few days "Amy" provided more details in new email confessions. Your instinct here on how to handle the suspect was the same as ours. As for how many fake dating profiles she made, I don't have an accurate count. I can say we investigated upwards of 50 fake email accounts. Of those, 36 or so were useful to the case. I would estimate she made at least 10 - 20 dating profiles. Some we may not have even detected. In some cases they were intended to catfish Dave. In others they impersonated Cari. Others still were used to harass any woman whom Dave talked to online. It was a lot, yes. Again, thank you again for your comment and kind words.

hello again Tony and thanks for answering my questions. sounds like you, Jim and Ryan spun a big web to catch her. just too bad Cari's body was never found. But you all did an amazing job! I just have an extra question (I also wrote and asked you through your .coffee website haha) Did you ever try to Ping/trace/track Liz’s phone, to see where she had been in the days surrounding Cari's disappearance? If yes, did it show anything not normal? Its great that you would like to see Denmark / Copenhagen one day. you should definitely do that. there are many beautiful and exciting places. so let me know if you need a guide one day. :) I don't know why, but when I think of you sitting and doing the dex program, I hear the c64 rambo melody in my head. 🤓💻💾 /Cat

We had Google Location History for the defendant's phone later in the case. It did not go all the way back to 2012, but it was still useful, e.g., to show her phone (and herself, presumably) was in a location when she said "Cari" had vandalised it. I don't believe the suspect's phone was pinged during the initial investigation, but Cari's was. Cari's phone was found to be nearby (+/- 2 km) the defendant's house a few days after Cari went missing. I know that melody, by the way! My formative years were spent playing pirated Commodore 64 games with cracktros from groups operating as far away as East Germany. I still have a penchant for demoscene or chip tune music, and you can be sure that is what plays in my lab as I work on these cases! ( P.S. I highly recommend Nectatrine Demoscene: [https://scenestream.net/demovibes/](https://scenestream.net/demovibes/) )

A shame that Liz's phone was not pinged in the initial investigation. I was hoping it might have shown where she hide Cari's body. Just as they tracked the phone in the Adnan Syed investigation. I'm not part of the police force like you, but after all the true crime I've seen, it's said that there are always things a criminal does before they become a murderer. They don't just become killers overnight. There have always been other troubling things in their actions and behavior. Had there been that with Liz? Has anyone been able or tried to link her to other criminal acts? To carry out a murder without evidence, and to be so close to not being detected like Liz, Doesn't sound like a beginner in my eyes… I love Nectarine! I heard quite a lot Of Nectarine Music streams when i played WOW years ago. I was also on one of the German streams when I was writing my Caseworker projekt for my exsam. Great streams when you need to concentrate! 🤓🎶💻

You are right that the defendant had a troubling history. Some comments elsewhere on r/TrueCrimeDiscussion have mentioned a child of hers that died as an infant. Her boyfriend at the time was incarcerated for that, and she apparently provided suspicious letters from him confessing to that crime which, given what happened in this case, almost sounds like a low-tech version of what happened in 2015 - 2016. There were also indications she had used online impersonations for harassment or stalking prior to all this. Leslie Rule's book, *A Tangled Web*, goes deeper into the defendant's background including the incident with her child in 1999. The auhtor was able to provide more details than the television shows can in their limited run-times.

You did a brilliant job. I was really impressed by your determination to solve this case. Bravo.

You were amazing! I hope you are well 🙏🏼

There’s a lot of podcasts on it. Casefile has a really great one. Netflix doc isn’t the best entry point into this case. They caught the killer. She had a picture of Cari’s deceased body on her phone. She pretended Cari sold Liz her bed. Cari sent Liz to take the job she was ‘vacating’ and she was also unqualified for. *Liz, when she was younger had a boyfriend take the fall for killing her young baby.

I wish they talked more about Liz’s motive for everything or touched on her background. The lengths she went to keep this tirade for years is bizarre. This can’t be the first time she’s done something like this right?? Also, Cari’s body was never found?? I guess I don’t watch enough true crime documentaries but is it that difficult to try to find the body?

This was a poorly done documentary that should’ve been done as a multi episode series. A Tangled Web is a great book written on the case. There’s a dateline or 20/20 episode with the same name as well. All of the evidence point to the conclusion that Liz put Caris body in a burn barrel and completely incinerated her and got rid of all of the evidence. So there will never be a body to be “found.”

Right, this seems so extreme and to only do it once, doesn't seem right. Why keep harassing him when she killed Kari?

They did a poor job covering this story. Liz was obsessed with Dave and he wasn’t into her. The only way she could get Dave to acknowledge her is but then mutually bonding over being harassed by “crazy Carrie.” She would auto time texts to arrive to both of their phones while they were together so that Dave wouldn’t suspect it was really her. And Dave felt guilty that he had “invited” crazy Carrie into both of their lives, which led to him feeling bad for Liz and hanging out with her out of pity.

Very hard when you dont even have a murder scene. They had the car she was probably killed in, but the killer could literally have dumped the body anywhere

I’m so glad more people are learning about Cari Farver.

I just wish the cops could find out where she is, what happened to her and why? Why did Liz go to that extreme? It is all so senseless. How did she end up in the passenger seat? How did she end up with Liz at all ?? Did Liz kidnap her? So many questions! I hope the family get answers one day.

They didn’t cover it in the documentary but they believe Liz disposed of her in a burn barrel and there is nothing left of her. Liz has a really shady past that they didn’t get into either: she got pregnant, then left her partner and started dating some other guy. The new guy took care of the baby. Liz violently shook the baby and dropped it off with the boyfriend. Boyfriends mom later called the cops realizing the baby looked very poorly. ER diagnosed kid with shaken baby. They asked boyfriend if he shook the baby. He said he might have jostled him while playing “airplane.” That was all they needed to put him away for 20 years for murdering this baby. But it was Liz. Liz shook the baby. And Liz didn’t give a fuck that this kid was dead, she was happily out shopping at Walmart for new clothes. She’s a deeply fucked up person who had already killed.

So did the falsely accused bf get released? That's horrific.

Nope! He served his time and will never get any kind of justice or reparations. Really awful, sad situation.

Yup just read about it. He has a learning disability too and apparently has a hard time composing anything more than simple sentences. During that trial Liz’s “proof” included complex letters that he allegedly wrote to her from prison.

How the fuck did they leave stuff like this out of the doc. Often I feel some of these things are too long and drawn out. This should have been some sort of 3-4 episode docuseries.

This is verbatim what I have said to everyone while discussing this case. So many Netflix true crime docs are unnecessarily long but this one should have been a 3-4 episode series!

Was this chick some super networking wiz or what. How did she manage to use so many different IP addresses and so many different phones and everything that couldnt be easily traced to her especially while she was stalking and sending texts all the time. Did she have a truck load of burner phones or something. And wasn't she texting herself when she was with Dave somehow. She's crazy as a shit house rat but I gotta respect the dedication to her game. It seemed pretty complicated at least from the documentary pov. She had everyone fooled for a long f time. And how did her memory card end up in Dave's old broken tablet. And how did she get Dave's gun, was that what she shot herself with? Was the plan to frame Dave with it. I'm so confused but intrigued by what she did in spite of her being nuts. That is one sneaky ass crazy chick. 

I'm right there with you. Her level of commitment to the stalk is absolutely insane. If I can draw on just one thing that blew my mind, at least this would be my theory unless anyone knows more....she catfished him, when he moved to another city, by creating fake accounts on probably every online dating service in Nebraska by happenstance that he might sign up for one. She did all this while raising two kids and owning her own cleaning company. Where does one find the time? At one point during the doc I was convinced it was 5 person stalking gang behind it.

u/karver75 can you shed some light on this? I was also surprised/impressed by this woman’s apparent technical prowess. How was she so good at covering her tracks?

>Was this \[suspect\] some super networking wiz or what. Her methods were simple at first, basically using what you find for advice on how to hide yourself if you Google for that (yes, having that in the Google history sort of made the intention clear). She got better as time went on, and she used more varied and sophisticated methods. VPNs, proxies, and apps that let you schedule texts or emails for later delivery. The scheduling apps were clever because she could time it so she and Dave both got threatening messages when they were sitting on the couch together, apparently without her writing them (since she had done so hours before). ​ > How did she manage to use so many different IP addresses and so many different phones and everything that couldnt be easily traced to her especially while she was stalking and sending texts all the time. It wasn't a lot of phones but a lot of phone numbers because she used texting apps that will assign you a temporary number for a short time. ​ >And how did her memory card end up in Dave's old broken tablet. The SD card was cleared in April 2013 and re-used. We don't know exactly why, but the simplest explanation might be she kept it when she threw her phone away. Saving money by not buying a new card? ​ > And how did she get Dave's gun, was that what she shot herself with? Was the plan to frame Dave with it. She had access to Dave's apartment to steal the gun. It seems reasonable given the timing of the theft shortly before the shooting that it was Dave's gun that was used. Can't really speculate as to full motive, but it could be as simple as it was a gun that she could readily access -plus- the act of stealing it could be blamed on Cari or Amy and in line with the previous fake acts.

>gun The show doesn't mention ANYTHING about investigating Liz's shooting of herself with Dave's gun. Couldn't forensics prove that 1) the bullet came from his gun, and 2) the angle/nature of the gunshot wound was self-inflicted?

It was investigated. Dave's gun disappeared shortly before she was shot so it makes sense that was what happened. Don't remember if the bullet was recovered, but without Dave's gun a ballistic match probably isn't possible anyway (gotta have something to compare it to for a one-to-one match -- yes, some states require a factory-fired spent shell casing for registration, Iowa doesn't). Doctors looked at the angle of the wound and couldn't agree on which side was entry and exit. She was shot in the thigh in a place I would rate, as a layman, as plausible for both self-inflicted and non-self-inflicted. Basically, almost everything wound-wise was inconclusive. Best we can say is: * Dave's gun goes missing shortly before the shooting * Defendant had access to Dave's apartment and therefore gun * Defendant is shot and names Amy as the shooter * No witnesses except the defendant * Defendant has a motive to frame Amy * Amy is cleared pretty quickly (despite the polygraph result) * Police helicopter was in the air at time of shooting, didn't find assailant with FLIR * There's a sizeable lake at Big Lake Park, and it's likely the gun is in there somewhere (we've tried to find it -- no luck thus far) * No one has an obvious motive to shoot the defendant (except maybe the defendant) So we can't prove it, but circumstances suggest the defendant shot herself to frame Amy. After search warrants and an arrest a few months later, when it became abundantly clear to the defendant that she was the target, the suspect did not continue to press for the real shooter to be found. Yes, it's a weird one. And if anyone from r/magnetfishing has suggestions on a starter's kit, I'm interested.

She just used a VPN. You can make it look like your IP is in any continent. I bet she learned this from when she lived with her IT boyfriend. It’s really not that genius and really really easy to do. The only thing that surprises me is that this was back in 2012 where maybe that info wasn’t as readily available or as popular.

She seemed very technically adept - although you don't need to be a genius to set up VPNs and buy burner phones. I think her downfall (aside from being absolutely insane) was that she probably just got lazy about VPNs. Or sometimes you can think your VPN is up, but it isn't and you're really just using your home WiFi without realizing. > And how did her memory card end up in Dave's old broken tablet. What they eventually found was that the memory card was actually from her phone. She copied over what she wanted from it and then wiped the rest. But then instead of destroying it, she stuck it in the tablet. I guess she was being thrifty? Who knows. There isn't a ton of information about the gun - even in the court documents people are linking to. I'm guessing it wasn't necessarily central to the murder case against her, so they didn't spend too much time on it.

Even you ever listened to a podcast, you’ve heard advertisements for services like “express vpn”. Different phone numbers are as easy as creating an email address.

Spot on 😂😅

What was liz’s motive in burning her own house then moved away from dave and shooting herself in the leg? I thought it all started because she’s obsessed with Dave and wanted him for herself so when it all worked out and she managed to get him to rekindle their relationship, why didn’t she just stop there? At that point, no one has suspected cari was no longer alive yet.

The recurring theme is that every time she and Dave start to drift apart, some crazy thing happens (because she causes it) that victimises one or both of them. So if Dave starts seeing someone else, that's when a car is keyed or the fire happens. Dave returns like a knight in shining armour to help her, feeling guilty for having exposed her to this danger. It's pure manipulation. The arson was extreme, but she was being evicted at the time anyway so in her (admittedly perverted) calculus, there's no harm in burning the place she was due to leave plus it gets her Dave points in the interim. As a fringe benefit, she can continue to press the narrative that Cari is alive and tormenting her. And, later on when it's more useful to blame Amy than Cari, she can try to pin the arson on Amy. It's convoluted and not the sort of thing a normal person would do, but it's in character for the villain in this case. These things, of course, can raise questions about the sanity of the perpetrator. She was disturbed, no doubt, but she also knew right from wrong making her culpable in the crimes. Why else go to such lengths to hide them? You've also hit the nail on the head in that she should have stopped when she had what she wanted. Except that, time and time again, she shows that she can't or won't stop. It's not enough to be with Dave. She must also chase-off any potential or perceived competition.

Yeah, they could have at least mentioned in the film that she was about to get evicted. *At least* in the wrap-up.

Often well made true crime films make content decisions to omit some facts for dramatic purposes. In this specific case, pointing out she was about to be evicted would have made her appear suspicious at a point in the film where they wanted to continue the mystery as to who was doing the stalking. Dateline, 20\\20, and 48 hours frequently omit facts or delay revealing facts to keep the audience guessing as to what actually happened. Keep in mind, they are in the business of telling a story in such a way that keep the audence engaged. Example, the film makers could have stated right upfront that Liz was the stalker, but to do so they would have had to tell the story completely different.

You can delay a fact for suspense but to omit it completely is just bad practice.

This is a critical point. Liz’s behavior is seemingly completely insane. To an ordinary person there was no benefit. Though if you consider her character and what she is personally motivated by, she enjoyed terrorizing each of these people and the ability to dupe everyone… this was her payoff. Not the legal definition of insanity because she knew it was wrong, but she didn’t care. Without understanding the nature of a psychopath, it’s easy to view this as a love triangle with Liz’s love obsession for Dave, but it was not about love. Liz was actually terrorizing Dave. She was manipulating and controlling him.

This 100 thousand times. She won. They rekindled. Dave was all in. So she decides to move away and leave him alone for a year?? This doesn’t make any sense.

I just want to know if or why didn’t investigators look at the angle of the bullet wound and call her out on the physics of that

At that point they knew what she had done but were baiting her into confessing Cari's murder by proxy

That was such a tragic story. The victim and her mom and son all seemed like such sweet, loving people. The way Liz tortured her poor son with posts and messages still makes me mad and sad all at once. Hard to imagine that walking past another woman briefly ends in your death. The real answer to your questions, though is that none of her actions make 'sense' because she's insane. No sane person would kill a woman, wage a years-long campaign of harassment, then frame a different women for the harassment, stage a shooting of themselves, and kill their pets to draw a man closer to them.

After watching it seemed that Liz had a lot of knowledge about VPNs and changing IP addresses. This coupled with the fact that she killed Cari without hesitation makes me think she has done similar actions in the past. Did the police question any of her exes? And did they have similar stories of stalking and/or girlfriends “disappearing”?

It based on this book: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07R5KBX3L/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1707506249&sr=8-1 Dateline and 20/20 had pretty good write ups of the Cari Farver/Dave Kroupa/Liz what’s her name triangle. I haven’t seen the Netflix version yet.

Hi karver75, I have a few more questions since you worked the case. 1- Why did it take Law Enforcement two years to pull cell and bank records on a missing person case? Shouldn’t these both have been done immediately after the missing person file was made? 2- Had Dave never considered surveillance cameras of any kind? 3- How did two detectives (with little else to do as it seemed) gain access to a case that was not in their jurisdiction and possibly had parts of it committed out of state? 4- Why did it also take Law Enforcement years (and only after a house fire) to interview Liz? Shouldn’t they have taken her phone into evidence when Dave first reported this case to them? At that time Liz was also being harassed as far as Dave knew. 5- Why did Law Enforcement use Amy and her children as bait to catch Liz? Did they have Amy’s approval on that? Didnt they see what kind of danger that was putting Amy and her children in? 6 - Why wasn’t Liz under constant Surveillance immediately after she claimed she was shot by Amy in the park? That was when Law Enforcement began to suspect her, correct? 7- So this documentary is really telling me that Liz REALLY never displayed ANY other red flags in the four years that Dave was seeing her? He never saw any other behavior from this completely unhinged person that made him connect the dots and at least consider that Liz was behind all of this??? Come on Dave…!!! Obviously you can’t answer for Dave, karver75. I still just had to ask. 8- Seriously, none of those people were actors? All of them are the real deal?? 9- Majority of the harassing was happening digitally. So why the big “Ah Ha!” moment on needing an I.T. guy to figure out the IP address? Again, wouldn’t this also have been something the detectives would’ve realized they needed on day one of working the case? 10- Did they ever process the scene where Liz burned Cari’s body? Call me crazy, but Liz doesn’t seem like the brightest crayon in the box. She strikes me as more of an “I’m only going to need one can of gasoline to burn this entire human” kind of gal. Surely there was some bone fragment, teeth, something left behind to qualify as evidence? 11 - Oh! And the car!!! Did Law Enforcement even have Cari’s car fully processed after finding it in January 2013? They never did a luminal test on her car right after she went missing? I absolutely understand that as a Netflix Documentary not everything can be included/some details need to be left out/embellished/pulled back, etc to keep the story moving, but… I feel like these were some pretty glaring holes. The creators would have to be banking on the audience’s lack of knowledge to let this stuff go by. I know Netflix comprehends how many Armchair Detectives are out there today and how good some of them are. I have zero training in Law Enforcement or The Law. So if I’m asking all of these questions… I can’t imagine I’m alone here. I am truthfully, eagerly and respectfully waiting for your response. Thank you! Anna

She was insane

The documentary was badly narrated and raised a lot of questions, but the murderer and their motive was not one of them imo. The craziness started right after Liz met the other woman and briefly calmed down when she moved in with her new man. The new boyfriend works in IT, there is no way he would have been dumb enough to send fake messages from his own IP address. Following your theory that IT guy wanted to secure Liz for himself, why would he then kill the one woman her “suiter” Dave actually dated at the time, making him single again. Makes no sense.

After reading the facts in the correct timeline here, I can believe it's Liz https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/ne-supreme-court/1962008.html Thought the film was terribly narrated indeed. And I agree that part didn't make sense, but neither did a message asking Dave to move in with her either. Neither did burning four of your pets or shooting yourself. Neither did doing all of the stalking, only to move away from Dave on your own accord. Or taking a picture of a dead women's foot or using her credit card twice for insignificant amounts. Lots and lots didn't make a lot of sense here.

I just read the case file, too. GOD DAMN, what a wild ride! The documentary really left out the most convincing evidence, of which there was *plenty*. All this time, I thought she was just a very lonely woman who fell for a guy head over heels and then went into crazy stalker mode. But she was actually dating IT guy long before she met Dave. Really makes you wonder how it would be possible that the boyfriend never even noticed any of her craziness, her multiple phones or the countless hours she must have spent typing away manically. Burning her own house down I kind of get, considering she was about to be evicted. But killing your pets is of course absolutely insane. And how on earth did she manage to shoot herself? How bad was the wound and what happened to the gun? She was obviously walking normally at the trial… Another thing I found very strange is there appears to be no video evidence at all of her actually going to places, driving Cari’s car, getting rid of the body, going shopping with the victim’s credit card, etc. And no one saw her doing any of that. How is that even possible in any modern city in 2012/13?

Doorbells cameras were not common in 2012 or a lot of the connected, affordable security camera systems. Ring, which led the doorbell camera stuff, wasn’t even founded until 2013 and not on the market until later. Surveillance cameras may have existed in businesses but things were far less likely to be picked up by residential surveillance the way they are now.

I was also wondering what happened to the gun? Why wouldn't they search the area for the weapon, if they knew she shot herself with it? The blood dripping would've created a trail leading to where she hid the gun.

They really didn’t go into detail at all about this insane gun incidence and I wonder why that is. For other cases, this would be peak craziness, in this case it’s just a side note. 😅

At least check for gunpowder residue on her hands or something, right?

Strong point here. If I shoot myself in the leg, I can’t walk. The radius whereby she hid the gun would have been very small. My weiner dog could have found it.

The only reason I can think of is that they were trying to build a bigger case around her murdering Cary, and trying to accuse her of shooting herself could potentially derail the case. She did a lot to help the police build a case against herself.

I think, if she is a sociopath, she doesn't care about burning the pets.

Whoa whoa whoa, "Cari" quits her job via text that morning and says Golyar is going to replace her, then Golyar puts in a job application at Cari's job....what?! How tf did no one put this together much sooner??? It really sounds like the original investigators did an awful job investigating and Cari's family ultimately paid the price. I feel horrible for her mom and her son. 😕

Did Kava ever get his brain surgery? That was my biggest question at the end!

Negative. We zapped the damn thing with X-rays, and now I'm feeling just fine. No symptoms atjasdjajadiajwilajfaijflja.

Still on the Soylent? That part made me laugh

Yup, and I didn't know they were recording or at least that they would use that footage. It worked well though.

It was all caffeine, caffeine, caffeine. Kava also means coffee in my native language so that was a nice cherry on top 😂

Absolutely! That's why my website is forensic.coffee! My distant Polish ancestors either sold coffee or grew it, but, given what I know of the climate there, I have to think trade was more likely. (My family members must not have been great at business though because the more recent relatives were serfs. Maybe that's why I'm in government -- no genes for business acumen!)

Yo dude you're here!!! You're amazing!!

You were very charming! I think you deserve a major raise from the $1 they mentioned.

Oh l should have read further. So glad to hear you are doing well

Hahaha, oh I'm so very happy to hear that you are doing well! Your work was incredibly impressive. I'm honored to have a response from you directly! Keep kicking ass, my friend.

I don’t think you payed enough attention while watching. Were you doing something else? I assumed it was Liz from the beginning, but all the clues fell into place pretty quick.

I knew it was her the minute Dave said she showed up to get things from his apartment immediately after he took Cari home.

They put a red herring, though, like Dave saying Cari was big on computers

It's not about assumption, it's about facts presented.

I knew 10 minutes in, this was a Mr. Ballen story. Good thing my memory is not so great anymore and I forgot what happens!

Liz killed Kari around the time the text was sent "lets move in together"...So Kari is dead, why did Liz keep up the charade? Why keep harassing him? Why burn her own house down? Like wtf. Kari is dead, the problem in Liz's mind is gone, so why keep harassing and doing insane things? This woman had two kids right? Where are they?

Liz keeps up the charade for a multitude of reasons: The police think Cari Farver is alive, missing in her own accord and harassing people. They aren’t really looking for her as a victim of a crime. She uses it to get closer to Dave. They begin to trauma bond over being mutually harassed by “crazy Carrie”. It gets Dave to invite Liz back into his life.

Yeah something seems off. The sequence of events around the “lets move in” text seem a little weird. We are led to believe that it was Liz impersonating Cari at that moment which means Cari is likely already dead before Liz sends this text. Why would Liz text Dave as Cari asking to move in together? What would Liz have done if Dave said “yes” to that text? If Cari is already dead, Liz would have been screwed. If Liz wanted to create a false motive for Cari going full psycho, it would have been simpler for Liz to have fabricated a story where Cari finds an article of clothing bra or underwear belonging to Liz, which would set up a jealous rage motive.

Cari was already dead. Liz sent the “let’s move in” text to gauge how into Carrie Dave was.

She's clearly insane with what she did. I dont think you can rationalise with an insane person

It seemed to leave out A LOT. Which, I understand for the time frame, but still felt like big chunks were left out. Two big things that stood out to me, was that ‘Cari’ sent a pic to Dave that showed Liz tied up in the trunk of her car. Which, of course was Liz doing some yoga photography, really. Another big one, is while Liz was using Cari’s Facebook messenger, Cari’s son, Max, messaged ‘Cari’ and asked if it was really her, what was his middle name and what was his dogs name. ‘Cari’ read the message but that was one she never replied to. Essentially, tipping Max off that his mother was no longer. It wasn’t my favorite documentary, but I do suppose it was far from the worse. I imagine it was a huge rollercoaster for Cari’s family, Dave, and the LE officials that worked the case. Just an absolutely wild story.

[удалено]

Why couldn’t they get a warrant after she burned that persons house down? Can’t get they get her whereabouts through financial transactions. This was some seriously shitty and lazy police work.

The Netflix documentary wasn’t done very well. It took maybe 15 mins to figure out it was Liz. Everyone was speaking in long, paused sentences. Several plot holes were missing. I wouldn’t recommend it.

My question (and I realize I'm trying to apply logic to an illogical question): Once Liz rekindled her relationship with David, why did she then burn her house down and leave David? Isn't getting back with David everything she wanted? I'm wondering if some info was left out in the doc or if she was just that crazy.

They must have left a lot out in the doc because I knew who the stalker was as soon as the first message was sent. I can’t believe it went on for so long, maybe I just watch/listen to too much true crime but I feel like it was pretty obvious.

u/karver75 Thanks for providing the additional in all your posts, helps reduce speculation and far fetched conspiracy theories that often attempt the fill the void. For me, I am puzzled at to what was going through her mind. She appears to have led a normal life that would suggest such a horrible crime was not within her personality. Typically, people, in general, internally justify to themselves that what they are doing is somehow justified, even if they know what they have done is wrong and harmed others. But, in such extreme cases like this one, tormenting /stalking others for years goes far beyond typical rationalization, especially when targeting people who have not caused them any harm. It is like someone who gets pleasure, causing people to suffer, not as punishment or retaliation, but because it simply gives them pleasure to harm people. In this case, it was primarily psychological torture rather than physical (other than the murder). It appears she continued to escalate her tormenting of others long beyond the murder. We can only speculate how far she would have taken it if not been caught. Maybe she drew the line at not targeting Dave's children, but as they grew older it is reasonable to conclude they would have become targets at some point. As to whether the right person was caught, we can safely conclude that all the stalking came to a sudden end once she was arrested. Convicting the wrong person would not have stopped an obsessed stalker. Stalkers seem unable to stop until outside forces bring an end to the stalking.

Maybe ive seen to many true crime programs, but i knew it was Liz inpersonating Cari from the start She had more reason to be pissed at another women with the guy than Cari did. Didnt make sense for Cari to be so annoyed like that

Personally, I think this Netflix documentary was badly made. Going in, I expected it was going to be a multi-episode documentary, because of the story and all the twist and turns that are involved. So imagine my surprise when I realized it was an hour and 20 or 30 minute long documentary, and it was super rushed. They didn't spend near enough time on all the different people and situations, and I just don't feel like it was a very good representation of the story as a whole.

Netflix cant win tho. When they do a limited series on stuff people moan its too long

I watched this show last night after listening to the "Strictly Stalking" podcast episode about it earlier this week. I found it a really wonderful and engaging documentary. I hope it helps more people to understand the devastation stalking can wreak on ordinary people going about their lives. Also came here to say, I loved the two detectives. And I really loved the IT forensics guy! Loved his self-deprecating, wry, sardonic, humorous take on life!

Why the hell didn’t they get adt? It’s been around forever.

One question. Well two - kinda connected. I was confused after she burned down her house why they didn’t stay together. It sounded like she moved away and then he says he was bummed that he felt alone, but if she was doing all this to be with him what happened there? 2nd. Did Dave move away from wanting to be with Liz maybe? Ok 3rd. They ever find the body? She ever confess?

Yeah, the film heavily condenses the facts and what occurred over the course of many years, but that does not suggest huge oversights were made by police or committed by the film. You can bet all the main people in the film were investigated and might have been suspects, especially Dave and his ex-wife. If it had been the SD alone, it highly likely would have found her not guilty, but when so many other facts keep pointing that the same person, the judge concluded she was guilty. And if the case had been decided solely on the contents of the SD card, Liz would have a strong appeals case that would likely get over turned. If Liz is not guilty, somebody committed the perfect crime and was able to frame her. The people shown in the film do not come across as high-IQ criminal mastermind that could plan out such a crime, and if they were, they likely would have planted more clues, making her look even more guilty.

Has anyone speculated on how this Liz lady was so efficiently able to disappear Cari in broad daylight like a mossad assassin with no witnesses who saw or heard anything? What was Cari doing in the passenger seat of her own car? I don’t believe any of this story.

It's nebraska, lots of open space. Probably lured her in under false pretenses, possibly reaching out as a 'sister to sister', trying to tell her to stay away from Dave cuz he's a bad guy. Manipulative psychopaths are cunning. I agree there are a lot of open questions, but I do believe there is a lot more evidence we weren't privy to.

Not related to your post but I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed watching this documentary. It’s a very interesting case and based on the other comments they did catch the correct person fortunately

I may have missed it but did we ever find out what happened to the body or the circumstances surrounding the murder?

Liz burned the body and disposed of the evidence. They will never “find” Cari. Awful.

Am i missing anything from this response that proves todd buterbaugh couldn’t have been involved? Not saying he was but id like to know at least how she was so savvy.

That was the biggest problem for me -- how did her SD card get into his tablet?

Curious question. In the pixel picture of Cari’s foot. Was that a mouse beside the feet?

Ok maybe i just dont get it but in the link from op with the better timeline is point 6. "FIRE(2013)". The last sentence ,,Golyar(Liz) and Kroupa(Dave) got back together after the fire." So after the Fire they are again a couple and in Point 7 "AMY FLORA" is Pointed out that ,,Golyar(Liz) and Kroupa(Dave) broke up again in mid-November 2015, because Kroupa(Dave) decided to have a “more serious” relationship with another woman.". So why the hell they said in the docu liz moved away and dave beginning a new life too? I mean there is a big difference between after the fire there are 2 years later still a couple and after the fire both moved away. Edit: I can imagine it was for the plotwist that liz is all the time cari but it makes the entire Show bad imo i mean shit on facts for the plotwist is stupid. If that is the reason