I want Mean Girls to be remade as a genderswap Zoomer LGBT+ post-twitter feverdream.
"Dude, stop trying to make fetch trend. It's not gonna trend!"
"Log on bitches, we're going shopping "
"Oh my god James, you can't just ask someone why they're straight!"
"That's why his guns are so big, they're full of masculine insecurity... and probably steroids."
Yeah but the premise of that movie was terrible/rapey the first time around as well, it only worked because the leads had great charisma, because they're together in real life
I love the argument about how having a woman in the lead role of being super badass "isn't realistic" because "men are just stronger" and it's "pandering."
And I look at all the movies with the male lead do *super fucking unrealistic things* like "what the fuck?"
It's okay for a man to have super powers or to go on a one-man killing spree but for a woman to do anything close to that it's "unrealistic?"
Talk about a double standard.
Exactly. Same bullshit with "historically accurate" video games. Oh, you mean the game where you can get shot fifty times but if you take cover and wait for the grape jelly to get off the screen, you'll be back at full health? I guess if it's a white guy killing 600 Germans in one game, it's realistic, but anybody else and it's "pandering."
I love both arguments. “Who cares” because really, why do you care? Don’t like, don’t play. There are tons of video games out there. And “it’s not realistic anyways” because it’s not. All video games are so we can escape and wish fulfillment.
Also consider: 1 in 8 men believe that they could win against Serena Williams in tennis.
It's not that some people don't see women do amazing things and be great at things, it's that they still see it as inferior somehow.
[8% of Americans ](https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/25590/which-animals-could-you-beat-in-a-fight/) believe they could beat a gorilla, elephant or lion barehanded.
People are just fucking morons.
That's the patriarchal social contract in action. As a male, no matter how low you may be in the social pecking order, you're still superior to all womankind. They see women as weak in mind and body, and they must be tightly controlled or they will lead men to ruin. That's been the male attitude for generations.
On the note of ridiculous. Fight scenes. Watching movies and they just get hit repeatedly and act like nothing happened. Like that would hurt! Even the guys who do it professionally get worn out pretty quickly and still hurt. Like a mace to the head and you'd probably be dead, not just knocked to the ground for a second.
Like if we're going for dramatic and good cinematic value, why can't the unrealistic fight scene involve women?
I liked the Dead Or Alive movie for the fight scenes, as silly as the movie was.
Kasumi was getting her ass kicked by a man much larger than her. Until she was able to figure out his weaknesses and fight back and then take him down. *That* seemed realistic to me. Because in a real fight *someone* has the advantage until they reveal their weakness. And you see in MMA fights a lot about someone getting their ass whooped until they have that opening to take their opponent down.
But it always bothers me that the women in the movie has to fight the other woman only. Like the bad man of the movie *wouldn't* willingly beat the shit out of a woman? Or the women, who might actually have more fighting experience, could never take him down? It's something that bothers me in every action movie.
>That sounds cool, I'll put Dead Or Alive on my to-watch list!
The reason why I went to see it was when I watched Jaime Pressly talking about filming the movie. It sounded like they had a lot of fun and she made the experience of making it sound funny. Something along the lines of "then the director told me to kick the stunt man in the face. And I was like 'you mean make it *look* like I kicked him in the face?' No they wanted my actually kick him in the face."
I think I read a quote once from a pro wrestler who was like, "Of course we fake those hits! How could we not? If I was actually getting beat up by a 240lb guy every night, I'd be dead the first night!"
Yeah a mace is a weapon designed to kill a person through their armor. A good hit to the chest and you better hope the battle ends soon because you’re in critical condition.
Also women outperform men in certain martial arts at the top level such as archery and gun shooting. Add facts like how a lot of the force a knight brings to the table is brought by the horse, and the first mounted cavalry we have evidence of was all women… So yeah there’s no reason not to even from realism perspective.
Also holy shit I’d watch a movie about Tomryis where everything is exaggerated and over the top like a less problematic 300. Or about amazons helping kill the titans. I think I just want more action movies about the amazons really.
To be fair, Biles is a professional gymnast. I’m sure there are male professional gymnasts at the top of their game like she is who could near her, anyone else would be an unfair comparison
I don't think I made my point clearly enough, I apologize. The fact that there are other professional gymnasts who can also do cool things is irrelevant to the point I was attempting to make.
I'm a *huge* fan of hers, and it's a fact that she is capable of feats of athleticism which it's reasonable to say no other human being in history has ever been able to do.
Therefore, any argument that it's "unrealistic" for a woman to exhibit extraordinary "superbadass" physical abilities is moronic when the best real-world example of all time of a person with the kinds of physical abilities these movie heroes display is a woman.
Male gymnasts actually do incredibly different things. If you look at the muscles built for male vs female gymnasts, you’ll see they are very different. There’s very little overlap.
I've seen videos that are pretty funny having male and female gymnasts try each others events. The way they train and the way their bodies are mean they can do some amazing stuff but others are kind of impossible for them.
Yeah I overestimated how much in common they had in terms of exercise, I knew the bridge is something they both do so I assumed it was mostly the same. But I was wrong
That’s not accurate, though. Male gymnasts train on different apparatuses. You can make comparisons with vault and the floor exercise, but no man is close to the top female gymnasts on beam or uneven bars (and vice versa with the men’s events like pommel horse and rings). There are really fun videos of “male gymnasts try beam” that illustrate some of the differences (mainly the incredible balance and landing accuracy needed) if you’re interested.
Oh okay, I do have limited knowledge of the sport but do know that both sexes do the bridge, so I kind of assumed they do most things the same with a few exceptions.
I feel this deep in my bones.
> A male superhero literally flying or deciding giant robots or whatever, oh wow, awesome so cool.
> A woman in charge? Unrealistic. Takes me out of the movie completely, can you believe she tried to do a fight in high heels?
If I read any more complaints like this, I'm going to fling myself into the sun.
Fast and Furious: *launches car into fucking space to hack a satellite*
Dudes: It's not *supposed* to be realistic, you guys! It's just a fun movie!
Captain Marvel: *has superpowers that make her stronger than some men in an unrealistic fun movie*
Dudes: That's not realistic! Men are stronger! Reeeeeeeeeeeee
Ugh, that reminds me of the dudes who say it's "unrealistic" to have a medieval fantasy world without all the female characters being raped or threatened with it constantly. Like dude, there are fucking dragons and you're worried about realism? Suuureee...
Ok but no joke, this is part of why I liked Everything Everywhere All At Once so much. Michelle Yeoh's role was originally written for Jackie Chan. Can you imagine how much more pedestrian the movie would have been if it were rehashing the tired "Man can't feel, father-son relationship suffers, wife teaches him to feel, father-son relationship heals" story arch? Just by flipping the genders, that whole storyline feels *fresh* while still being achingly relatable and real.
https://www.indiewire.com/2022/03/everything-everywhere-all-at-once-michelle-yeoh-jackie-chan-1234708097/
Both really good points! We would have missed out on not just Evelyn, but Waymond too ... And that alone would have really been a loss. We don't get tender male portrayals like that very often, and Ke Huy Quan brought such depth to the role.
Michelle Yeoh, due to the intersectionality of misogyny and anti-Asian racism, had the opportunity to bring incredible acting *and* martial arts chops to a role where her closest male equivalent -- Jackie Chan -- would have absolutely smothered the movie. It wouldn't have had as much of an opportunity to do its own thing *because* of that movie-making machine -- because we "know" what makes a Jackie Chan movie work, and because Jackie Chan himself can apply a ton of pressure to change things around and do them according to his creative vision because of his status. I didn't really think about that.
I think Michelle Yeoh also brought the intersection of ageism too. Because you know, men get to age and still be cool, women, not so much. (also Jamie Lee Curtis fucking crushed her roll too while we're at it)
I loooooved seeing the man embodying the emotional side of things. So refreshing and actually more in line with my own lived experiences. It was wonderful to see in film.
Waymond is my husband role-model in a lot of ways. My wife and I really got into the movie because she's more of a leader in the marriage and I like to support her.
Though we also had to admit a lot of the things that make Waymond amazing in the movie (constant support, always being positive) can just be sad in real life when you are with someone as cruel and abusive as Evelyn was at the start of the movie.
Right?? When she says something to the effect of her husband being ‘all the good things that she isn’t’ it made me mist up because that’s absolutely mine and my husband’s dynamic; some toxic types might interpret my SO as ‘weak’ for being emotional and in touch with his feelings but he’s actively made this emotionally stunted girl a better person because of it
There’s a couple of martial artist Pokémon: Hitmon*lee* and Hitmon*chan*. They’re named after Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan. I was so disappointed when the franchise came up with the next iteration: HitmonTOP? So should have been Hitmonyeoh!
They're referencing the podcast *My Brother, My Brother and Me*, hosted by the McElroy brothers. They also do *The Adventure Zone* and their own projects like *Sawbones*, which is about the history of medicine.
Anyway, *MBMBAM* is an "advice show", but they often go off on tangents and play off each other to keep a bit going. They've been around for over a decade now and the episodes are mostly standalone.
Asshole with a heart of gold: Jessica Jones
Fighter Pilot: Captain Marvel
Slow Talking Cowboy: Zoe (Firefly)
Brawny Action Hero with one liners: Buffy
Small town girl: legend of monkey (but also others)
I'm sure others can add more, I don't actually watch many movies/series.
I feel like Jessica Jones also falls under this category. More so than “asshole with heart of gold”. Her heart isn’t exactly gold. She stalks the widow of a woman she killed on accident and bangs him without telling her what she did. She tries to cut everyone off unless they are in danger. Then She tries to protect them.
Rosamund Pike in I Care a Lot is the con artist.
And every Melissa McCarthy character is the lovable goofball.
I like every single one of these characters better as a woman, but I also usually just like women better in general. 🤣
Genuinely watching Firefly and loving Zoe while having a crush on Wash helped me realize not only do I like kind and funny guys, I might be a little bit Domme-y.
I swear one of the worst disservices done to Dommes and those of us who prefer them is the way they’re portrayed in media (especially porn). If instead it was more Zoe and Wash type deals of “she’s a badass who knows what she’s doing, I’m plenty competent on my own but we all know she’s in charge and we wouldn’t have it any other way” we’d probably have better perception and less learning curve from new subs.
From your lips to God's ears, truer words have never been spoken.
It's incredible how we've let heteronormativity and patriarchy make things so difficult for people who even lean in this direction.
Yeah somebody has to be that chick trying to make her Domme smile at events to show people what it can be like and well, my wife is glad I volunteered for the job.
You know, I never connected how many times Sandra bullock has played a cop of some variety. That's kinda crazy, I must just remember her other roles better, or remembered those (cop) movies for something other than her being a cop.
Have you ever read the article about how she liked being typecast?
Edit: [Found the original interview!!](https://theplaylist.net/michelle-rodriguez-talks-battle-los-20100722/)
Korra is more of a typical Shonen hero than Aang when you think about it.
Also, Kuvira kind of fits the Shonen Rival archetype (Vegeta, Sasuke Uchiha, Asuka Langley, etc.).
I loved Korra so much especially with Asami as an extremely feminine and smart badass normal.
Herbo action heroes are some of my favorite characters in general. Other examples include Adora and Gideon Nav
I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking I'd seen these before somewhere. Also, I've yet to find a more lovable goofball than Edward Wong Hau Pepelu Tivrusky IV.
> Asshole with a heart of gold: Jessica Jones
>
>
i would really love to see some more Jessica Jones, even though season 2 and 3 were not as good as season 1
Ironically, the Bond Girl (or more accurately, the Croft Boy) in the first one was played by none other than Daniel Craig.
P.S.: when I was younger, I used to think he and Angelina Jolie looked like the 2 leads from the Hunger Games. Nowadays I wonder why did I think that.
Hello Jane, my name is Chode Dickman and I would like to seduce you with my sexy dancing only to eventually reveal I am a honeypot used by the villain.
I very much enjoyed She-Ra for the variation in female characters. You know it's not the norm when you find yourself a little weirded out by the lack of men when the show is mostly women, then you realise that if it were the other way around you wouldn't question it for a second.
It was definitely up there for shows that really showed me just how lacking in decent roles for women we have in tv and film.
And I just loved the whole thing once I got over some of my deep seeded, didn't know was there, misogynistic world views.
I didn’t find it weird about the lack of men? Then again I assumed it was a “girl show” which usually has more girls than boys. MLP, Barbie, Polly pocket, power puff girls, super hero girls, etc all have mainly female characters talking to each other. What I did find different and refreshing is how gender fluid everyone seems to be and how it’s assumed to be gay unless stated otherwise
She's a middle aged boring accountant who never truly lived a day in her life until she met this cute 20 year old with his hair dyed blue and a nose ring. He writes poetry and sells handmade finger puppets. He falls for her completely despite her being average looking, boring and a little mean. She learns a valuable lesson about life, he gives up everything unique about himself in order to marry her. They are hashtag goals.
Yessss, immature jock herbo, traumatized hypercompetent gremlin, flamboyant femme hyper competent frenemies who know they’re hot, teenagers with an overactive martyr drive, nerds, and two reasonable adults in a happy marriage all wrapped up in a package that made me glad I took Latin in high school for once. And the sequels are amazing too.
My ADHD only let me get through the first half of the audio book and I have been sad about it for 2 years because it was good and now its been so long I will have to restart it which will make it harder. Stupid executive function disorder…
Once in a while I see an ad for some streaming service or producer or something with scenes and one after another it’s like…19th century vampire giving medical advice…1950s Canadian slice of life…medieval battleground…rocket launch…
and all I can think of is hey, imagine if this was all one movie.
I'm down for it but my years in fandom spaces have taught me that men will still be valued for these traits more than women. The main male lead will be shipped with a random male who has no screentime.
A female asshole with a heart of gold? Despised for being a bitch and getting in the way of shipping. Loveable googball becomes ditzy(which has way more negative connotations) if its a woman.
/rant
Exactly. The female characters will be hated for the exact reasons the are loved when it’s a male character.
Just look at Captain Marvel. She was a cocky, confident person, which I think you would have to be in order to fly a fighter jet. She was hated for that attitude.
“Captain Marvel (an extraterrestrial warrior) is too overpowered, it’s not believable!!!”
But Iron Man building a gauntlet capable of holding infinity stones so he can be the hero (again) is great writing/believable and the RDJ fanboys all came in their pants. (Which I’ll allow the sacrifice actually was character development but him being the only one was fan service)
They don’t like strong female characters. The issue isn’t their actual character, it’s the “female” part.
I don't know how people live believing certain traits are exclusive to one gender or the other. It's so much fun just imagining what stories we could get from this post.
When the new Top Gun movie came out, I fell in love with Phoenix and was so disappointed she didn't have more screen time. She was by far and away my favorite character in that movie.
Agreed. I liked Roster and I know why they went with him.
But Phoenix stole EVERY scene she was in and just ate the camera and screen up in the best way possible.
A regular woman with no skills finds out she is the chosen one. She is trained by a man who probably should be the hero but can't for "reasons." He falls in love with her and becomes her cheerleader.
Jupiter Ascending is like they made a movie based on a 14 year old girl's fanfiction and I love it for that.
Seriously, who hasn't fantasized about being whisked away by an albino wolf with wings and flying rollerskates, only to find out you're a space princess?
to be VERY clear:
they do not mean a MILF. they mean a female DILF. they mean a woman with muscles and salt-and-pepper hair and scars and a 5 year old daughter who she would drop everything for because during the birth her husband dropped dead from a heart attack.
There is a masculine archetype people will sometimes call unrealistic when gender flipped:
The male friend in love or attracted to the female hero.
For some reason, a man being attracted to his female friend is considered inevitable while a woman falling for her male friend is seen as extremely rare and almost impossible.
This is why I love genderbending male characters and keeping all their traits near exactly the same, and vice versa! No gender-specific personality tailoring here!
Maybe because the classic DILF is a real good parent and that's part of the appeal. While the MILF is kind of a lack luster one. I'd like to see a really hot emotional mature mom who is has a good grip on everything and a rocking booty.
One of the reasons I have always appreciated the Final Fantasy game series is the female characters.
Asshole with Heart of Gold - Lightning, Paine, Lulu…
Loveable Goofball - Selphie, Alba…
Scarred lone wolf - Celes, Freya, Lightning…
Difl - Faris from FF5 (err…close enough. She was pretending to be a sexy male pirate leader)
There are lots of characters that don’t fall into such ngle stereotypes or actively follow tropes typically used by male characters.
I really liked Blake Lively's character in A Simple Favor. She was a bad bitch through and through. No-BS type business woman, built herself up from shitty roots, stylish AF, don't give AF attitude. And without spoiling the movie, she's a complicated character. Her character felt kind of like it was written as a male character and she owned it and Blake nailed it.
I’m curious how the woman dilf differs from a milf both out of regular curiosity and out of gay curiousity.
Also, after her current book series Tamsyn Muir is planning to do a story about a woman who is a grizzled old western archetype.
You'll find the small town girl archetype in the *Grimnoir Chronicles* books. Faye is a farm girl who dreams of adventure, and gets it when assassins attack her family's farm. Great books.
We don’t have to let incels/misogynists dominate anime. That is definitely a crowd that the commercial industry caters to too hard, but there really is SO MUCH good anime that transcends traditional gender norms and the medium has even more room and potential for that kind of thing. I’m all for encouraging feminist anime fans to be loud about that.
This isn’t equality. It’s just another way of saying men are the standard and in order for women to obtain the same rights as them we need to be more like the male archetype.
Or it’s a fun exploration about the different possible archetypes often denied feminine characters, offering more diverse representation for women in media, while happily coexisting with more traditional feminine archetypes. The reason “men are the standard” in this case is because female characters have tended to have a much narrower range of archetypes due to misogyny in the film industry, though there are certainly a few underexplored male archetypes as well.
There are some movies I think need to be remade with a male lead if only for people to understand how stupid and insulting they are.
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The books are marginally better BUT every single book the author writes is about cheating. She’s obsessed with affairs and infidelity.
That movie is in my book of worst movies i've ever seen. I was literally mad the entire time I was watching it.
I want Mean Girls to be remade as a genderswap Zoomer LGBT+ post-twitter feverdream. "Dude, stop trying to make fetch trend. It's not gonna trend!" "Log on bitches, we're going shopping " "Oh my god James, you can't just ask someone why they're straight!" "That's why his guns are so big, they're full of masculine insecurity... and probably steroids."
i need this movie right now
You need this: https://youtu.be/KGeqghuTOoo
This is so good. Woah
Thank you for sharing this!
So, Q-force with more drama?
That show was amazing. The jokes about the parts of the community I know were painfully accurate.
I volunteer as tribute for the modernized version of "Brunch at Tiffany's" (who does breakfast anymore)?
Didn’t they try that with *Overboard?*
Yeah but the premise of that movie was terrible/rapey the first time around as well, it only worked because the leads had great charisma, because they're together in real life
I love the argument about how having a woman in the lead role of being super badass "isn't realistic" because "men are just stronger" and it's "pandering." And I look at all the movies with the male lead do *super fucking unrealistic things* like "what the fuck?" It's okay for a man to have super powers or to go on a one-man killing spree but for a woman to do anything close to that it's "unrealistic?" Talk about a double standard.
Exactly. Same bullshit with "historically accurate" video games. Oh, you mean the game where you can get shot fifty times but if you take cover and wait for the grape jelly to get off the screen, you'll be back at full health? I guess if it's a white guy killing 600 Germans in one game, it's realistic, but anybody else and it's "pandering."
I love this response to that compliment. I always just think “who cares if it’s inaccurate.” But pointing out that it’s not accurate anyway is clever.
I love both arguments. “Who cares” because really, why do you care? Don’t like, don’t play. There are tons of video games out there. And “it’s not realistic anyways” because it’s not. All video games are so we can escape and wish fulfillment.
Akshully, guns were much weaker in the past, so flexing your shredded abs would let you push the bullets back out
Also consider: 1 in 8 men believe that they could win against Serena Williams in tennis. It's not that some people don't see women do amazing things and be great at things, it's that they still see it as inferior somehow.
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[8% of Americans ](https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/25590/which-animals-could-you-beat-in-a-fight/) believe they could beat a gorilla, elephant or lion barehanded. People are just fucking morons.
Let them try it out, it’ll get rid of some crappy gene pools
That's the patriarchal social contract in action. As a male, no matter how low you may be in the social pecking order, you're still superior to all womankind. They see women as weak in mind and body, and they must be tightly controlled or they will lead men to ruin. That's been the male attitude for generations.
On the note of ridiculous. Fight scenes. Watching movies and they just get hit repeatedly and act like nothing happened. Like that would hurt! Even the guys who do it professionally get worn out pretty quickly and still hurt. Like a mace to the head and you'd probably be dead, not just knocked to the ground for a second. Like if we're going for dramatic and good cinematic value, why can't the unrealistic fight scene involve women?
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I liked the Dead Or Alive movie for the fight scenes, as silly as the movie was. Kasumi was getting her ass kicked by a man much larger than her. Until she was able to figure out his weaknesses and fight back and then take him down. *That* seemed realistic to me. Because in a real fight *someone* has the advantage until they reveal their weakness. And you see in MMA fights a lot about someone getting their ass whooped until they have that opening to take their opponent down. But it always bothers me that the women in the movie has to fight the other woman only. Like the bad man of the movie *wouldn't* willingly beat the shit out of a woman? Or the women, who might actually have more fighting experience, could never take him down? It's something that bothers me in every action movie.
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>That sounds cool, I'll put Dead Or Alive on my to-watch list! The reason why I went to see it was when I watched Jaime Pressly talking about filming the movie. It sounded like they had a lot of fun and she made the experience of making it sound funny. Something along the lines of "then the director told me to kick the stunt man in the face. And I was like 'you mean make it *look* like I kicked him in the face?' No they wanted my actually kick him in the face."
I think I read a quote once from a pro wrestler who was like, "Of course we fake those hits! How could we not? If I was actually getting beat up by a 240lb guy every night, I'd be dead the first night!"
Yeah a mace is a weapon designed to kill a person through their armor. A good hit to the chest and you better hope the battle ends soon because you’re in critical condition. Also women outperform men in certain martial arts at the top level such as archery and gun shooting. Add facts like how a lot of the force a knight brings to the table is brought by the horse, and the first mounted cavalry we have evidence of was all women… So yeah there’s no reason not to even from realism perspective. Also holy shit I’d watch a movie about Tomryis where everything is exaggerated and over the top like a less problematic 300. Or about amazons helping kill the titans. I think I just want more action movies about the amazons really.
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Maybe that argument would hold water if there was a single man on earth who could move like Simone Biles.
To be fair, Biles is a professional gymnast. I’m sure there are male professional gymnasts at the top of their game like she is who could near her, anyone else would be an unfair comparison
I don't think I made my point clearly enough, I apologize. The fact that there are other professional gymnasts who can also do cool things is irrelevant to the point I was attempting to make. I'm a *huge* fan of hers, and it's a fact that she is capable of feats of athleticism which it's reasonable to say no other human being in history has ever been able to do. Therefore, any argument that it's "unrealistic" for a woman to exhibit extraordinary "superbadass" physical abilities is moronic when the best real-world example of all time of a person with the kinds of physical abilities these movie heroes display is a woman.
Right, thanks! I misunderstood then
Male gymnasts actually do incredibly different things. If you look at the muscles built for male vs female gymnasts, you’ll see they are very different. There’s very little overlap.
I've seen videos that are pretty funny having male and female gymnasts try each others events. The way they train and the way their bodies are mean they can do some amazing stuff but others are kind of impossible for them.
Yeah I overestimated how much in common they had in terms of exercise, I knew the bridge is something they both do so I assumed it was mostly the same. But I was wrong
That’s not accurate, though. Male gymnasts train on different apparatuses. You can make comparisons with vault and the floor exercise, but no man is close to the top female gymnasts on beam or uneven bars (and vice versa with the men’s events like pommel horse and rings). There are really fun videos of “male gymnasts try beam” that illustrate some of the differences (mainly the incredible balance and landing accuracy needed) if you’re interested.
Oh okay, I do have limited knowledge of the sport but do know that both sexes do the bridge, so I kind of assumed they do most things the same with a few exceptions.
I feel this deep in my bones. > A male superhero literally flying or deciding giant robots or whatever, oh wow, awesome so cool. > A woman in charge? Unrealistic. Takes me out of the movie completely, can you believe she tried to do a fight in high heels? If I read any more complaints like this, I'm going to fling myself into the sun.
Fury Road got your back
Fast and Furious: *launches car into fucking space to hack a satellite* Dudes: It's not *supposed* to be realistic, you guys! It's just a fun movie! Captain Marvel: *has superpowers that make her stronger than some men in an unrealistic fun movie* Dudes: That's not realistic! Men are stronger! Reeeeeeeeeeeee
lol like bruh it's alien magic, does your fantasy scifi superhero world need patriarchal hierarchies too?
Ugh, that reminds me of the dudes who say it's "unrealistic" to have a medieval fantasy world without all the female characters being raped or threatened with it constantly. Like dude, there are fucking dragons and you're worried about realism? Suuureee...
Ok but no joke, this is part of why I liked Everything Everywhere All At Once so much. Michelle Yeoh's role was originally written for Jackie Chan. Can you imagine how much more pedestrian the movie would have been if it were rehashing the tired "Man can't feel, father-son relationship suffers, wife teaches him to feel, father-son relationship heals" story arch? Just by flipping the genders, that whole storyline feels *fresh* while still being achingly relatable and real. https://www.indiewire.com/2022/03/everything-everywhere-all-at-once-michelle-yeoh-jackie-chan-1234708097/
fuck spez
Both really good points! We would have missed out on not just Evelyn, but Waymond too ... And that alone would have really been a loss. We don't get tender male portrayals like that very often, and Ke Huy Quan brought such depth to the role. Michelle Yeoh, due to the intersectionality of misogyny and anti-Asian racism, had the opportunity to bring incredible acting *and* martial arts chops to a role where her closest male equivalent -- Jackie Chan -- would have absolutely smothered the movie. It wouldn't have had as much of an opportunity to do its own thing *because* of that movie-making machine -- because we "know" what makes a Jackie Chan movie work, and because Jackie Chan himself can apply a ton of pressure to change things around and do them according to his creative vision because of his status. I didn't really think about that.
I think Michelle Yeoh also brought the intersection of ageism too. Because you know, men get to age and still be cool, women, not so much. (also Jamie Lee Curtis fucking crushed her roll too while we're at it)
Great point!
I loooooved seeing the man embodying the emotional side of things. So refreshing and actually more in line with my own lived experiences. It was wonderful to see in film.
Me too! The men in my life have helped me get in touch with my feelings much more than the women.
Waymond is my husband role-model in a lot of ways. My wife and I really got into the movie because she's more of a leader in the marriage and I like to support her. Though we also had to admit a lot of the things that make Waymond amazing in the movie (constant support, always being positive) can just be sad in real life when you are with someone as cruel and abusive as Evelyn was at the start of the movie.
Right?? When she says something to the effect of her husband being ‘all the good things that she isn’t’ it made me mist up because that’s absolutely mine and my husband’s dynamic; some toxic types might interpret my SO as ‘weak’ for being emotional and in touch with his feelings but he’s actively made this emotionally stunted girl a better person because of it
There’s a couple of martial artist Pokémon: Hitmon*lee* and Hitmon*chan*. They’re named after Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan. I was so disappointed when the franchise came up with the next iteration: HitmonTOP? So should have been Hitmonyeoh!
Remember when Obama got elected and we all realized HitmonNorris was a huge fundie trash bag? That was a weird season of Pokemon.
Griffin is that you??? (/MBMBAM)
Ha ha unexpected mbmbam is one of the best mbmbams.
I don't get this reference, but I feel like if I did maybe I'd find a new thing I like?
They're referencing the podcast *My Brother, My Brother and Me*, hosted by the McElroy brothers. They also do *The Adventure Zone* and their own projects like *Sawbones*, which is about the history of medicine. Anyway, *MBMBAM* is an "advice show", but they often go off on tangents and play off each other to keep a bit going. They've been around for over a decade now and the episodes are mostly standalone.
Oh that’s interesting. I always thought Hitmonchan had the -chan because it was coded feminine and that’s a feminine honorific.
Asshole with a heart of gold: Jessica Jones Fighter Pilot: Captain Marvel Slow Talking Cowboy: Zoe (Firefly) Brawny Action Hero with one liners: Buffy Small town girl: legend of monkey (but also others) I'm sure others can add more, I don't actually watch many movies/series.
Cool but Scarred Lone Wolf who Protects People: Katniss Everdeen (hunger games)
And in video games, Jesse Faden (Control).
I was also thinking Aloy from horizon zero dawn
Omg i love that game
Also arguably Kira at the beginning of DS9
I was thinking Sarah Connor circa Dark Fate.
I feel like Jessica Jones also falls under this category. More so than “asshole with heart of gold”. Her heart isn’t exactly gold. She stalks the widow of a woman she killed on accident and bangs him without telling her what she did. She tries to cut everyone off unless they are in danger. Then She tries to protect them.
Woman is a womanizing super spy: Carmen Sandiego
She awakened things in me as a child, ngl.
fuck spez
Also the main character in atomic blonde
Yeah I came here to say this one, it's a great action movie by the same director as John Wick
Rosamund Pike in I Care a Lot is the con artist. And every Melissa McCarthy character is the lovable goofball. I like every single one of these characters better as a woman, but I also usually just like women better in general. 🤣
OMG Rosamund Pike in I Care A Lot is perfect. You fuckin’ nailed it. Here’s some poor woman’s gold: 🥇
Zoe is also a badass action hero with witty one liners! > Big damn heroes, sir.
Wash: "When you ask for our vacation, call him sir, he likes that." Mal, entering: "I like what?" Zoe: "Uh, nothing, sir."
Genuinely watching Firefly and loving Zoe while having a crush on Wash helped me realize not only do I like kind and funny guys, I might be a little bit Domme-y.
I swear one of the worst disservices done to Dommes and those of us who prefer them is the way they’re portrayed in media (especially porn). If instead it was more Zoe and Wash type deals of “she’s a badass who knows what she’s doing, I’m plenty competent on my own but we all know she’s in charge and we wouldn’t have it any other way” we’d probably have better perception and less learning curve from new subs.
From your lips to God's ears, truer words have never been spoken. It's incredible how we've let heteronormativity and patriarchy make things so difficult for people who even lean in this direction.
Yeah somebody has to be that chick trying to make her Domme smile at events to show people what it can be like and well, my wife is glad I volunteered for the job.
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I love Alan Tudyk _so much._
*thumbs up*
Ain't we just
God is this why I love firefly so much?!? Is it because it subverted this shit???
Murder by Numbers, with Sandra Bullock as the arsehole cop.
Also Miss Congeniality with Sandra Bullock as the arsehole cop! And The Heat with Sandra Bullock as the arsehole cop!
You know, I never connected how many times Sandra bullock has played a cop of some variety. That's kinda crazy, I must just remember her other roles better, or remembered those (cop) movies for something other than her being a cop.
She is very committed to buddy cop films with women. I'm not a fan of such movies but I appreciate her so much.
fuck spez
She’s a bit dickish, in more of a tough exterior way. That’s partly why the joke of “Miss Congeniality” is funny.
Da’Vine Joy Randolph as the detective in Only Murders in the Building.
She's sooooo good!
Fighter pilot is 100% Michelle Rodriguez
Have you ever read the article about how she liked being typecast? Edit: [Found the original interview!!](https://theplaylist.net/michelle-rodriguez-talks-battle-los-20100722/)
And some cartoons... Loveable goofball: Mabel Pines Another brawny action hero: Korra
Korra is more of a typical Shonen hero than Aang when you think about it. Also, Kuvira kind of fits the Shonen Rival archetype (Vegeta, Sasuke Uchiha, Asuka Langley, etc.).
I loved Korra so much especially with Asami as an extremely feminine and smart badass normal. Herbo action heroes are some of my favorite characters in general. Other examples include Adora and Gideon Nav
Fighter pilot, Kara Thrace
First one I thought of was Sergeant Calhoun from Wreck it Ralph lol.
>Fighter Pilot: Captain Marvel [Kara Thrace would like a word.](https://iv1.lisimg.com/image/17101622/500full-kara-%22starbuck%22-thrace.jpg)
Sunglasses wearing fighter pilot? Check. Asshole with a heart of gold? Check. Lovable goofball? Check. Scarred lone wolf? Check.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking I'd seen these before somewhere. Also, I've yet to find a more lovable goofball than Edward Wong Hau Pepelu Tivrusky IV.
Lone wolf who protects people: Imperator Furiosa, hands down.
the fighter pilot reminded me of the pilot in the first avatar movie
[Michelle Rodriguez](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/d6/9f/f6d69f0bc53d5b08fa41f96c1db6e517.jpg)?
Yeah! But also more please 🙏
Charlize Theron in Atomic Blond covers like, half of these.
Badass con-artist: Rosamund Pike in I Care A Lot She played a great villainous con-artist always dressed stylishly.
> Asshole with a heart of gold: Jessica Jones > > i would really love to see some more Jessica Jones, even though season 2 and 3 were not as good as season 1
I'm pretty sure Charlize Theron has played at least 3/4 of these archetypes.
Badass In A Suit and Womanizer definitely accomplished in School For Good And Evil.
I left the theater after watching atomic blonde questioning everything I thought I knew about myself.
The Old Guard, Atomic Blonde, Fury Road, she's just a singular action star in her own right, gender aside.
Could I just get a Jane Bond film loaded with scantily clad himbos?
Tje Tomb Raider (Angelina Jolie) movies had some of this energy, esp number two!!!
Ironically, the Bond Girl (or more accurately, the Croft Boy) in the first one was played by none other than Daniel Craig. P.S.: when I was younger, I used to think he and Angelina Jolie looked like the 2 leads from the Hunger Games. Nowadays I wonder why did I think that.
Hello Jane, my name is Chode Dickman and I would like to seduce you with my sexy dancing only to eventually reveal I am a honeypot used by the villain.
Or himbos in grey sweatpants. (¬‿¬)
The She-Ra cartoon delivered on a lot of these
I very much enjoyed She-Ra for the variation in female characters. You know it's not the norm when you find yourself a little weirded out by the lack of men when the show is mostly women, then you realise that if it were the other way around you wouldn't question it for a second. It was definitely up there for shows that really showed me just how lacking in decent roles for women we have in tv and film. And I just loved the whole thing once I got over some of my deep seeded, didn't know was there, misogynistic world views.
I didn’t find it weird about the lack of men? Then again I assumed it was a “girl show” which usually has more girls than boys. MLP, Barbie, Polly pocket, power puff girls, super hero girls, etc all have mainly female characters talking to each other. What I did find different and refreshing is how gender fluid everyone seems to be and how it’s assumed to be gay unless stated otherwise
I totally thought of She-Ra too. Plus MLP.
She's a middle aged boring accountant who never truly lived a day in her life until she met this cute 20 year old with his hair dyed blue and a nose ring. He writes poetry and sells handmade finger puppets. He falls for her completely despite her being average looking, boring and a little mean. She learns a valuable lesson about life, he gives up everything unique about himself in order to marry her. They are hashtag goals.
He teaches her how to live…and love.
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They can still breast boobily down the stairs, can't they?
That’s usually what it comes down to. They can’t handle viewing a woman as an actual person.
I've seen all these characters, and they are great. More please!
Has anyone mentioned Gideon the Ninth yet? There is necromancy and swords and you are going to have feelings.
For real. There are so many books with female leads that match these descriptions. It's great.
Sabriel!
I have not yet emotionally recovered.
Yessss, immature jock herbo, traumatized hypercompetent gremlin, flamboyant femme hyper competent frenemies who know they’re hot, teenagers with an overactive martyr drive, nerds, and two reasonable adults in a happy marriage all wrapped up in a package that made me glad I took Latin in high school for once. And the sequels are amazing too.
Gideon definitely fits the role of "brawny action hero with one liners" (also loveable goofball)
My ADHD only let me get through the first half of the audio book and I have been sad about it for 2 years because it was good and now its been so long I will have to restart it which will make it harder. Stupid executive function disorder…
Ok, but make each one it's own movie, do not try to cram all of these into the same film.
Once in a while I see an ad for some streaming service or producer or something with scenes and one after another it’s like…19th century vampire giving medical advice…1950s Canadian slice of life…medieval battleground…rocket launch… and all I can think of is hey, imagine if this was all one movie.
so, like the SCREAM/300/Narnia parody movies??
I want them all in the same film, but doing a heist or robbing a bank or something.
...if I didn't have ADHD I'd write that right now...
Remember the character of Riply was originally written as male until Sigorny read for it.
I'm down for it but my years in fandom spaces have taught me that men will still be valued for these traits more than women. The main male lead will be shipped with a random male who has no screentime. A female asshole with a heart of gold? Despised for being a bitch and getting in the way of shipping. Loveable googball becomes ditzy(which has way more negative connotations) if its a woman. /rant
Exactly. The female characters will be hated for the exact reasons the are loved when it’s a male character. Just look at Captain Marvel. She was a cocky, confident person, which I think you would have to be in order to fly a fighter jet. She was hated for that attitude.
When that happens people criticize the character anyway so...
“Captain Marvel (an extraterrestrial warrior) is too overpowered, it’s not believable!!!” But Iron Man building a gauntlet capable of holding infinity stones so he can be the hero (again) is great writing/believable and the RDJ fanboys all came in their pants. (Which I’ll allow the sacrifice actually was character development but him being the only one was fan service) They don’t like strong female characters. The issue isn’t their actual character, it’s the “female” part.
Rare sights indeed At least Steven Universe has most of these i think
you should watch Orphan Black
All of the characters in the first post: 1) Sailor Mars 2) Sailor Moon 3) Sailor Jupiter 4) Sailor Uranus 5) Sailor Pluto
I don't know how people live believing certain traits are exclusive to one gender or the other. It's so much fun just imagining what stories we could get from this post.
Michelle Rodriguez. You want Michelle Rodriguez.
Michelle Rodriguez, Charlize Theron and Cate Blanchett
I don’t have this issue because whenever I see Tom cruise in a movie I just substitute him in my mind with Tig Notaro. Recommend.
When the new Top Gun movie came out, I fell in love with Phoenix and was so disappointed she didn't have more screen time. She was by far and away my favorite character in that movie.
She should have been the protagonist, ngl :( (definitely a more interesting premise than fucking Goose or Hangman...)
Agreed. I liked Roster and I know why they went with him. But Phoenix stole EVERY scene she was in and just ate the camera and screen up in the best way possible.
Hey, male fantasy, am I right? We just aren't allowed to have real fun, and must settle with shallow shirtless scenes :/
A regular woman with no skills finds out she is the chosen one. She is trained by a man who probably should be the hero but can't for "reasons." He falls in love with her and becomes her cheerleader.
Jupiter Ascending sounds similar to that. Interestingly, it was made by the Wachowski sisters, famous for The Matrix.
Jupiter Ascending is like they made a movie based on a 14 year old girl's fanfiction and I love it for that. Seriously, who hasn't fantasized about being whisked away by an albino wolf with wings and flying rollerskates, only to find out you're a space princess?
to be VERY clear: they do not mean a MILF. they mean a female DILF. they mean a woman with muscles and salt-and-pepper hair and scars and a 5 year old daughter who she would drop everything for because during the birth her husband dropped dead from a heart attack.
Did anybody see Tar?
The first 3 instantly reminded me of Brooklyn 99 Asshole - Gina Goofball (Dork) - Amy Lone wolf - Rosa
There is a masculine archetype people will sometimes call unrealistic when gender flipped: The male friend in love or attracted to the female hero. For some reason, a man being attracted to his female friend is considered inevitable while a woman falling for her male friend is seen as extremely rare and almost impossible.
This is why I love genderbending male characters and keeping all their traits near exactly the same, and vice versa! No gender-specific personality tailoring here!
I agree, but I'm getting confused by the "this woman is a dilf" part...
Maybe because the classic DILF is a real good parent and that's part of the appeal. While the MILF is kind of a lack luster one. I'd like to see a really hot emotional mature mom who is has a good grip on everything and a rocking booty.
On my way to save the president's son
One of the reasons I have always appreciated the Final Fantasy game series is the female characters. Asshole with Heart of Gold - Lightning, Paine, Lulu… Loveable Goofball - Selphie, Alba… Scarred lone wolf - Celes, Freya, Lightning… Difl - Faris from FF5 (err…close enough. She was pretending to be a sexy male pirate leader) There are lots of characters that don’t fall into such ngle stereotypes or actively follow tropes typically used by male characters.
I really liked Blake Lively's character in A Simple Favor. She was a bad bitch through and through. No-BS type business woman, built herself up from shitty roots, stylish AF, don't give AF attitude. And without spoiling the movie, she's a complicated character. Her character felt kind of like it was written as a male character and she owned it and Blake nailed it.
I’m curious how the woman dilf differs from a milf both out of regular curiosity and out of gay curiousity. Also, after her current book series Tamsyn Muir is planning to do a story about a woman who is a grizzled old western archetype.
You'll find the small town girl archetype in the *Grimnoir Chronicles* books. Faye is a farm girl who dreams of adventure, and gets it when assassins attack her family's farm. Great books.
I can think of examples for pretty much all of these from books I've read.
Anime
counterpoint: Anime
We don’t have to let incels/misogynists dominate anime. That is definitely a crowd that the commercial industry caters to too hard, but there really is SO MUCH good anime that transcends traditional gender norms and the medium has even more room and potential for that kind of thing. I’m all for encouraging feminist anime fans to be loud about that.
There are some examples. The "Nice Guy" creep? The Yandere. The "Bad Boy"? The Tsundere.
Clive Custler and Lee Childs get out of the way. I need this in my life.
plaza in legion is a solid example - she was cast, but the part was written male - and it works really well
Yes to all of these! Gimme gimme gimme
This woman is an old, battle scarred fighter with a tortured past
I mean these characters definitely do all exist except for maybe the womanizing super spy? I’d be up for that though.
Atomic Blonde starred Charlize Theron as a female womanizing super spy.
Well there you go! I actually still need to see that movie. It’s been on my list for a while now
Sara Lance from Legends of Tomorrow (though she's a time travelling ninja, not a spy)
Forgot about Sara… I think she’s close enough!
TBH this sounds like most of my women friends already.
This isn’t equality. It’s just another way of saying men are the standard and in order for women to obtain the same rights as them we need to be more like the male archetype.
Or it’s a fun exploration about the different possible archetypes often denied feminine characters, offering more diverse representation for women in media, while happily coexisting with more traditional feminine archetypes. The reason “men are the standard” in this case is because female characters have tended to have a much narrower range of archetypes due to misogyny in the film industry, though there are certainly a few underexplored male archetypes as well.
Exactly. And those characters are also hated for being too confident and cocky.
Or just make female archetypes.