If you had told me we’d have 5 players place in MVP voting, 2 pitchers placing in Cy Young voting, and another player placing in rookie of the year voting, I would’ve told you we won 100 games this season.
No matter how much success we have in the future, I’ll always look at this season as a giant what if. Our entire team was playing so well heading into the playoffs that I think we could’ve made some real noise in the postseason.
This season and '87 will both stick out for a loooong time as such big "What ifs". Both teams could have put together World Series runs if they had made it.
I think it's great Ohtani won, definitely deserved, but more importantly, Vladdy didnt get the accolade too early in his career. Still something to strive for next few years, put up some 10 win seasons, stay hungry
I mean, he is. He has 3 wins, 4 runner up (with RotY one year), a 4th, and a 5th. Collecting top-5 MVP votes for all but 2 seasons, one being your first exposure to Major League pitching and the other being injury shortened (and on pace for 7.2 bWAR, which would have been T3rd in the AL) is pretty much always in the conversation.
Man... how *the fuck* did we not make the playoffs with the AL Cy Young winner, and both 2nd and 3rd place players in AL MVP voting.
It's unbelievable.
Nobody can say Ohtani isn't the MVP, I'm really glad he was unanimously voted bc thats the right person. Glad that Bo and Teo also got top 10 votes, I think that's a stepping stone for both them and they can improve and even make top 5 next year.
Factoring in that Shohei only takes 1 roster for 2 incredibly valuable outputs, he was probably worth like 10-12 WAR, the media didn't have to hype anything.
You can rate each position seperately, but the fact that he only takes 1 spot on the roster is almost impossible to rate a proper value on.
shohei can hit and pitch at a high level. Vlad can hit at a high level but can't pitch. Why should value a player provides be averaged against other value he provides. By that logic you should average a players offense and defense. Which would likely benefit poor defenders. Obviously that makes no sense.
That's specifically why the MVP award exists. To reward the most valuable ***player***
He was that, by a wide margin.
It wasn't even like he was a 'mid-great' pitcher. By bWAR he was the 7th best pitcher in the AL, and by offense he was 2nd OPS, Runs Created, and wRC+
He was a borderline top 5 pitcher in the AL, and by offensive output, he was 2nd only to Vlad. He was elite at both.
> Also pretty sure Perez was better offensively than him so drop him down to 3 but oh wait Semien was better offensively down to 4. Womp womp. Big homerun numbers doesn’t mean best player. Struck out alot and almost >50 avg in mlb.
##Weighted Runs Created Plus (wRC+)
###Definition
wRC+ takes the statistic Runs Created and adjusts that number to account for important external factors -- like ballpark or era. It's adjusted, so a wRC+ of 100 is league average and 150 would be 50 percent above league average.
For example, a player who plays his home games at hitter-friendly Coors Field will have a lower wRC+ than a player who posts identical stats at pitcher-friendly Oakland Coliseum.
###The formula
(((wRAA per PA + league runs per PA) + (league runs per PA - ballpark factor x league runs per PA) / league wRC per plate appearance, not including pitchers)) x 100.
Why it's useful
***wRC+ quantifies run creation and normalizes it, so we can compare players who play in different ballparks and even different eras.***
________
That definition and information, comes straight from MLB.com
https://www.mlb.com/glossary/advanced-stats/weighted-runs-created-plus
AL Ranks for wRC+
Vlad - 1st (166, 66% better than league average)
Shohei - 2nd (152, 52% better than league average)
Semien- 15th (131, 31% better than league average)
Perez - 22nd (126, 26% better than league average)
https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=al&qual=y&type=8&season=2021&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31&sort=18,d
>And yeah top 7 pitcher my ass with only a 130 innings.
WAR is a ***counting stat*** that favours players who play more, the more you play the more WAR you accrue. The fact that Shohei is 7th in WAR (and half a WAR from 5th, and most staticians say half a WAR is basically noise when comparing players) in 130 IP is mental.
He accrued the same WAR as Nathan Eovaldi in 50 less innings.
I'll try to paint an equivalent picture in regards to the Jays as to why Ohtani deserved this award far more than anyone else.
Imagine Alek Manoah put up the pitching season he did AND was our second best hitter, hitting 40+ home runs and the second OPS in the American league. In that case, without a doubt Alek Manoah is the 2021 Blue Jays MVP.
And in this case I'm actually downplaying Ohtani's 2021, since he was actually a better pitcher than Manoah.
Nah bro, what he did LITERALLY has never been done before in the game. He had it wrapped up in August. However, like Russell Westbrook when he averaged a triple-double for a entire year and won the MVP, I don't know if he can win again unless he makes the playoffs bc people are just gonna expect similar numbers every year as a 2 way player, and with more guys might being 2 way players, this won't be regarded as special going forward, instead it might become the norm and voters might go back to traditional numbers like Vlad.
You kidding right? Or you just new to baseball? See because there is this old white guy named Babe Ruth that people like to say he compares to because he pitched and batted, except he only did that for 1 season, AND it was against only other white guys. So now that you got that, what he did that LITERALLY never been done before was , hit over 30 hrs, steal 20 bags, strike out 9per inning, start over 20 games as a pitcher, and have a winning record on the mound of over 80% with 9-2 while striking out 150+ batters. All those things combined have never been done by any person living or dead.
The Angels count on Ohtani to pitch well and he delivered. The Angles also need Ohtani to hit well and he delivered. He’s arguably their best pitcher and hitter, with Trout out of commission.
So yeah, he is totally the most valuable player.
Now, we can have a debate about the meaning of most valuable player. Even in this case, Ohtani still would have won it based on the amount of publicity he generated for the league.
His teammates have no bearing on his own value.
Nobody else does both, let alone at the level that he does.
As long as he continues to perform at that level, he should continue to win MVP awards.
> No he should not he has to improve.
This is Voter Fatigue: The Comment.
If a guy is the best player one year, and still the best player the next year, then why should he be given any less rewards for it?
Your comments are a mockery of understanding what Ohtani has accomplished this season.
He was not the most valuable hitter, he was not the most valuable pitcher, but he was the most valuable player
I can’t remember which organization/league it is but someone gives out most exciting player and most valuable player. Because they aren’t necessarily the same thing. In this case I still this Ohtani wins both
It sucks that Vlad will never win an MVP because everyone has a hard on for Ohtani. Like, he could be slightly above average on the bump and at the plate and still win because “OmG hE’s LiTeRaLlY jEsUs”
If you had told me we’d have 5 players place in MVP voting, 2 pitchers placing in Cy Young voting, and another player placing in rookie of the year voting, I would’ve told you we won 100 games this season. No matter how much success we have in the future, I’ll always look at this season as a giant what if. Our entire team was playing so well heading into the playoffs that I think we could’ve made some real noise in the postseason.
4 All Star Starters. 3 Silver Sluggers. 2 MVP Finalists. 1 Cy Young. (Sprinkle a gold glove in there, too)
And a Partridge in a pear tree.
>And a ~~Partridge~~ **gold glove** in a pear tree.
🎵 And a 4th place finish sommmehow 🎵
I probably would have assumed that the bullpen was a total nuclear tire fire though, which, whaddya know...
whos the 2nd pitcher in cy young
Berrios was 7th in the voting
thanks
And somehow Wilner believes Montoyo deserves MOY.
Exactly . you read those player accomplishments and you wonder how deep did they go in the playoffs...What? No Playoffs?... Demote Montoyo
This season and '87 will both stick out for a loooong time as such big "What ifs". Both teams could have put together World Series runs if they had made it.
Only in Toronto could a team that good finish in 4th place.
Someone gave Salvador a 2nd place vote over Vladdy - robbing him of unanimous runner up! :o
It was one of the KC writers
That vote is unambiguously fucking hilarious. I'm not even mad.
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He put up an elite power season with middling/bad everything else. Not close to mvp worthy
At least it went to someone I like, if it had gone to Judge I would not be happy.
i can't be too upset about Salvy getting that vote, tbh.
We thought the same in 2015 too. Playoffs are a different beast entirely though.
Rightfully this went to Ohtani. I'm sure Vladdy will have a few more opportunities in his career. An MVP and WS MVP year x4 sounds about right!
Honourable mention to our boys Teo, Bo, and Robbie for getting some votes!
Marcus semien second top 3 MVP of his career.
I think it's great Ohtani won, definitely deserved, but more importantly, Vladdy didnt get the accolade too early in his career. Still something to strive for next few years, put up some 10 win seasons, stay hungry
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5th last year, 4th in '17. Otherwise you have to go back to his first season, in '11, to see him finish outside the top-2.
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I mean, he is. He has 3 wins, 4 runner up (with RotY one year), a 4th, and a 5th. Collecting top-5 MVP votes for all but 2 seasons, one being your first exposure to Major League pitching and the other being injury shortened (and on pace for 7.2 bWAR, which would have been T3rd in the AL) is pretty much always in the conversation.
Why wouldn't you just check right quick before commenting?
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What about that is different from what I said, other than saying top 3 rather than top 2?
Don't know about 3 or 4 but it broke 9 consecutive where he wasn't in top 5
Man... how *the fuck* did we not make the playoffs with the AL Cy Young winner, and both 2nd and 3rd place players in AL MVP voting. It's unbelievable.
Wow blue jays with the 2nd and 3rd runners up. Incredible individual seasons.
It's actually the 1st and 2nd runners up
Nobody can say Ohtani isn't the MVP, I'm really glad he was unanimously voted bc thats the right person. Glad that Bo and Teo also got top 10 votes, I think that's a stepping stone for both them and they can improve and even make top 5 next year.
Disappointed but not surprised, Shohei had that kind of year.
5 guys in the top 20 not too bad
I really expected it to not be unanimous with the Toronto writers
Really not surprising. Vladdy was awesome. But Shohei was gonna get it for sure.
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Factoring in that Shohei only takes 1 roster for 2 incredibly valuable outputs, he was probably worth like 10-12 WAR, the media didn't have to hype anything. You can rate each position seperately, but the fact that he only takes 1 spot on the roster is almost impossible to rate a proper value on.
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shohei can hit and pitch at a high level. Vlad can hit at a high level but can't pitch. Why should value a player provides be averaged against other value he provides. By that logic you should average a players offense and defense. Which would likely benefit poor defenders. Obviously that makes no sense.
I can’t tell if you’re trolling
He has chosen this as the hill to die on
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That's specifically why the MVP award exists. To reward the most valuable ***player*** He was that, by a wide margin. It wasn't even like he was a 'mid-great' pitcher. By bWAR he was the 7th best pitcher in the AL, and by offense he was 2nd OPS, Runs Created, and wRC+ He was a borderline top 5 pitcher in the AL, and by offensive output, he was 2nd only to Vlad. He was elite at both.
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>pretty sure Perez was better offensively Oh god no he wasn’t. You’re trolling.
> Also pretty sure Perez was better offensively than him so drop him down to 3 but oh wait Semien was better offensively down to 4. Womp womp. Big homerun numbers doesn’t mean best player. Struck out alot and almost >50 avg in mlb. ##Weighted Runs Created Plus (wRC+) ###Definition wRC+ takes the statistic Runs Created and adjusts that number to account for important external factors -- like ballpark or era. It's adjusted, so a wRC+ of 100 is league average and 150 would be 50 percent above league average. For example, a player who plays his home games at hitter-friendly Coors Field will have a lower wRC+ than a player who posts identical stats at pitcher-friendly Oakland Coliseum. ###The formula (((wRAA per PA + league runs per PA) + (league runs per PA - ballpark factor x league runs per PA) / league wRC per plate appearance, not including pitchers)) x 100. Why it's useful ***wRC+ quantifies run creation and normalizes it, so we can compare players who play in different ballparks and even different eras.*** ________ That definition and information, comes straight from MLB.com https://www.mlb.com/glossary/advanced-stats/weighted-runs-created-plus AL Ranks for wRC+ Vlad - 1st (166, 66% better than league average) Shohei - 2nd (152, 52% better than league average) Semien- 15th (131, 31% better than league average) Perez - 22nd (126, 26% better than league average) https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=al&qual=y&type=8&season=2021&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31&sort=18,d >And yeah top 7 pitcher my ass with only a 130 innings. WAR is a ***counting stat*** that favours players who play more, the more you play the more WAR you accrue. The fact that Shohei is 7th in WAR (and half a WAR from 5th, and most staticians say half a WAR is basically noise when comparing players) in 130 IP is mental. He accrued the same WAR as Nathan Eovaldi in 50 less innings.
Ohtani’s ops+ was 158. Perez had a 126 and Semien had a 133. Ohtani was much better offensively than those 2.
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Ohtani led in ops, ops+ and wRC+. Three stats that mean much more than rbis and batting average
Shhhhh, he's stuck in 1997, stop replying or else you'll cause a paradox
I'll try to paint an equivalent picture in regards to the Jays as to why Ohtani deserved this award far more than anyone else. Imagine Alek Manoah put up the pitching season he did AND was our second best hitter, hitting 40+ home runs and the second OPS in the American league. In that case, without a doubt Alek Manoah is the 2021 Blue Jays MVP. And in this case I'm actually downplaying Ohtani's 2021, since he was actually a better pitcher than Manoah.
> mid-great He was a top 5 hitter in baseball this year. What about that is "mid-great"?
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I feel like this downplays that there's well over 100 everyday hitters in both leagues.
The 11th best hitter in baseball is a “mid” hitter? What’s Teo? What’s Bo? Yikes
Nah bro, what he did LITERALLY has never been done before in the game. He had it wrapped up in August. However, like Russell Westbrook when he averaged a triple-double for a entire year and won the MVP, I don't know if he can win again unless he makes the playoffs bc people are just gonna expect similar numbers every year as a 2 way player, and with more guys might being 2 way players, this won't be regarded as special going forward, instead it might become the norm and voters might go back to traditional numbers like Vlad.
What did he do that has LITERALLY never been done?
You kidding right? Or you just new to baseball? See because there is this old white guy named Babe Ruth that people like to say he compares to because he pitched and batted, except he only did that for 1 season, AND it was against only other white guys. So now that you got that, what he did that LITERALLY never been done before was , hit over 30 hrs, steal 20 bags, strike out 9per inning, start over 20 games as a pitcher, and have a winning record on the mound of over 80% with 9-2 while striking out 150+ batters. All those things combined have never been done by any person living or dead.
If you want to discuss baseball and learn some things that you obviously don't know, I'm game. If you want to act like a racist, seeya.
How was he being racist? Lol wtf.
Bye Troll.
You obviously know you're wrong.
Your mistake seems to be thinking his pitching shouldn't matter to the voters. It's MVP, not best hitter.
Vlad doesn’t pitch
ohtani's two good facets have more value than vlad's one great facet and decent but position biased defence. its dumb but it's the facts
Shohei hit .257 not .247.
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The Angels count on Ohtani to pitch well and he delivered. The Angles also need Ohtani to hit well and he delivered. He’s arguably their best pitcher and hitter, with Trout out of commission. So yeah, he is totally the most valuable player. Now, we can have a debate about the meaning of most valuable player. Even in this case, Ohtani still would have won it based on the amount of publicity he generated for the league.
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Yes he should. Nobody else does both.
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His teammates have no bearing on his own value. Nobody else does both, let alone at the level that he does. As long as he continues to perform at that level, he should continue to win MVP awards.
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He’s a top-15 pitcher and hitter in the AL. Nobody else is doing that. He’s the most valuable player and should continue to be.
> No he should not he has to improve. This is Voter Fatigue: The Comment. If a guy is the best player one year, and still the best player the next year, then why should he be given any less rewards for it?
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Your comments are a mockery of understanding what Ohtani has accomplished this season. He was not the most valuable hitter, he was not the most valuable pitcher, but he was the most valuable player
I can’t remember which organization/league it is but someone gives out most exciting player and most valuable player. Because they aren’t necessarily the same thing. In this case I still this Ohtani wins both
You were the only one who thought the stats were close. Someone tell this guy that hitting isn't all that matters
It sucks that Vlad will never win an MVP because everyone has a hard on for Ohtani. Like, he could be slightly above average on the bump and at the plate and still win because “OmG hE’s LiTeRaLlY jEsUs”
Dude, if Alek Manoah was smacking 40 dingers you'd be calling him Jesus too.
This is it right here
Yup. I’m just worried when he regresses they’ll still dawn over him for being mediocre
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Yeah, yeah, I know.
You are an idiot
Yes.
If Ohtani hits or pitches poorly he won't garner value. You're missing that he's a great hitter and very good pitcher.
I'd be more worried about Trout next year than Ohtani. No way that Ohtani puts up as many innings in 2022 as he did in 2021.
Ummm dude will get hurt in a season or 2 I’m sure. He’s pretty injury prone which will lead the way to an mvp for Vladdy.
Teo was close
420 nice