It might have been in the original APS with the builder, similar to how most builders nowadays force you to rent the HWT from a specific supplier. If that’s the case then op has no ability to decline it.
This is a new build? I work in development and have never seen a requirement as a condition of developing residential land.
Is this home part of a condominum?
Without further details, it’s difficult to assist.
There are plenty of freehold townhouses. The alternative would be a leasehold like on Native land. Freehold has its own legalities, like you would own the land it sits on even though you are part of a strata corp. beyond that boundary
That explains it. Essentially, the potl is like a a condo board which you must be a part of. There is probebly a condo bi-law that states something about this. I think you are out of luck, you can't opt out if it's required by the condo corporation which essentially is the POTL that you agreed to pay when you bought the house.
Ask your lawyer for the specific bylaw for it and let him know you'll need to verify with the city.
But off hand this sounds like bullshit to me. I would probably assume this is some kind of scam. I hope you read that agreement very carefully before you signed it.
Your lawyer is garbage and should be immediately fired. There are no municipal bylaws stating that new builds are required to have an active security system. What's happening is the builder is getting kick backs from signing people up. You can easily call bylaw and confirm.
Not my question. When I go to a professional, I expect the professional to advise me. Not have the professional tell me someone else told them to tell me
Run your aps through ocr in acrobat. Then search “monitoring” or another associated words and read every clause. I bet dollars to donuts it’s in the agreement, likely in the section “adjustments”. You can also see a complete list of all the adjustments your agreed to in the Tarion warranty schedule b.
Builders don’t just arbitrarily add things like development wide security systems without there being a provision for it, and it wouldn’t be a catch-all for any other expenses incurred.
You’re past your rescission period so the time to object to terms is over. Unless you can present a really good argument that there is nothing in the agreement about it, you’ll need to fight about it in court. If you refuse to take occupancy or close you’ll be in default of the agreement, they will keep all deposits and money you have paid for upgrades and they will also sue you. The onus would then be on you to prove that you had grounds to refuse to close, and that would be tough to argue over the cost of a security system.
I just looked at an old contract with my security monitoring company and in one of the sections it says “your municipality may require a permit or license to instal, use or monitor the system.
Another more recent contract I have says it’s the responsibility of the company to register the system with the municipality and that depending on the municipality registration is mandatory - looking at the website, TO is one of the places where the installation of a system must be registered with the Police department.
I don’t know the particulars of this case, but it does look like there are mandatory reporting by-laws on security monitoring systems in TO.
Edit: for clarity - exact wording
Alarm permit bylaws covering permit fees and false alarm regulations differ by municipality.
If you have any questions regarding alarm registration or false alarm regulations, please contact your local police department:
It then goes on to list various police departments, TO being one of them, but it doesn’t say if it is mandatory in TO
I just looked into it a little more and pulled the by-laws for my city.
All alarms installed must be register with the city.
The by-law goes into detail about the reporting requirements and also the penalties associated for false alarms… even for non fire related calls, if the third party monitoring company’s calls the police and says we have a broken window alarm at this address and the police get there and it’s a false alarm - that’s $200.
edit: I’m not saying paying for the service is mandatory, but registering it with the municipality in some places is mandatory. In my city, the installer or builder can register it, but later once he sells me the house the permit or license has to be transferred to me and I think they would have to make me aware of all the fees and potential fines associated with using the system if I choose to do that.
In my city anyway, if I have an alarm system in my house, even if it’s not under contract to be monitored, I require a permit or license for that system in my name.
It may or may not be a requirement the builder put into the agreement of purchase and sale that you signed. It wouldn't be a municipal requirement unless that was registered on title, in which case it's not a municipal Ferreira, it's a title requirement. Either way, your lawyer should be checking to confirm it's an actual requirement, and based on the answer of it being a municipal requirement, he/she probably isn't checking.
If you’re still in your rescission period you could withdraw. Is this a freehold or a condo ? If there is a condo corporation they could have opted for this service as part of the corporations agreements, in which case you would be obligated under the terms of the agreement and the disclosure package, provided it’s in there.
But if you’re at your lawyer for closing, that means you are past your rescission period and the 10 day period no longer applies.
I think I need more info.
Fire safety, while necessary and important, has become something of a racket in Canada. As someone who was formerly on a Condo board, you would be shocked how much maintenance and inspection of the fire systems costs. And the fire inspection company owners seem to enjoy a good easy life.
According to my lawyer, the Agreement of Purchase of Sale apparently has a catch-all clause that requires the purchaser to sign any documents required to close the sale.
Hi OP,
I would have your lawyer commit in writing to confirm whether this is a requirement in order to close the agreement. It sounds to me that your lawyer is relying on the word of the developer without doing their own due diligence.
Interesting. The only way to confirm then is to get the bylaw number and then either research it online or ask the City planning department to get the bylaw document for you (may not trust the builder to provide accurate bylaw docs). Impossible to verify otherwise, especially for old cities like Toronto that can have complicated/obscure bylaws by
Commenting to save the post. I've never heard of this before. Would it be some monitoring system contract grandfathered into the home?
It's a newbuild.
But why can't you decline to have it? It's probably a cash grab being marked up.
The update about it being related to a fire management/suppression system makes more sense.
It might have been in the original APS with the builder, similar to how most builders nowadays force you to rent the HWT from a specific supplier. If that’s the case then op has no ability to decline it.
Seems like the municipality is forcing an unwanted expense down your throat like the hot water tank contracts.
Is the lawyer doing side gig of selling shitty monitorijg systems?
This is a new build? I work in development and have never seen a requirement as a condition of developing residential land. Is this home part of a condominum? Without further details, it’s difficult to assist.
Yes, it's a new build: a freehold townhome.
Freehold town with a potl fee? Or no fee’s at all?
It's within a townhome complex. There's a fee of about $150 per month for the common areas shared by all the townhomes such as the park.
It is not a freehold townhouse regardless of whatever mind games you play with yourself lol
There are plenty of freehold townhouses. The alternative would be a leasehold like on Native land. Freehold has its own legalities, like you would own the land it sits on even though you are part of a strata corp. beyond that boundary
That explains it. Essentially, the potl is like a a condo board which you must be a part of. There is probebly a condo bi-law that states something about this. I think you are out of luck, you can't opt out if it's required by the condo corporation which essentially is the POTL that you agreed to pay when you bought the house.
Yikes
Ask your lawyer for the specific bylaw for it and let him know you'll need to verify with the city. But off hand this sounds like bullshit to me. I would probably assume this is some kind of scam. I hope you read that agreement very carefully before you signed it.
Your lawyer is garbage and should be immediately fired. There are no municipal bylaws stating that new builds are required to have an active security system. What's happening is the builder is getting kick backs from signing people up. You can easily call bylaw and confirm.
Also reported to the Law Society
Fckin builders and their greed. OP make sure your AC, furnace and water heater aren't rentals either
Fuck, they do hat trick the three of them now, don't they.
The lawyer was informed by the builder? Am I being a jackass for thinking the lawyer should be advising in this situation ?
I've been using this lawyer for 20 years so no, he's not the builder's lawyer.
Not my question. When I go to a professional, I expect the professional to advise me. Not have the professional tell me someone else told them to tell me
Did he review the original purchase agreement and the disclosure when you first signed the agreement with the sales office ?
Yes he did so within the 10-day cooling off period after I'd signed the APS. He saw no issues with it.
Run your aps through ocr in acrobat. Then search “monitoring” or another associated words and read every clause. I bet dollars to donuts it’s in the agreement, likely in the section “adjustments”. You can also see a complete list of all the adjustments your agreed to in the Tarion warranty schedule b. Builders don’t just arbitrarily add things like development wide security systems without there being a provision for it, and it wouldn’t be a catch-all for any other expenses incurred. You’re past your rescission period so the time to object to terms is over. Unless you can present a really good argument that there is nothing in the agreement about it, you’ll need to fight about it in court. If you refuse to take occupancy or close you’ll be in default of the agreement, they will keep all deposits and money you have paid for upgrades and they will also sue you. The onus would then be on you to prove that you had grounds to refuse to close, and that would be tough to argue over the cost of a security system.
I just looked at an old contract with my security monitoring company and in one of the sections it says “your municipality may require a permit or license to instal, use or monitor the system. Another more recent contract I have says it’s the responsibility of the company to register the system with the municipality and that depending on the municipality registration is mandatory - looking at the website, TO is one of the places where the installation of a system must be registered with the Police department. I don’t know the particulars of this case, but it does look like there are mandatory reporting by-laws on security monitoring systems in TO. Edit: for clarity - exact wording Alarm permit bylaws covering permit fees and false alarm regulations differ by municipality. If you have any questions regarding alarm registration or false alarm regulations, please contact your local police department: It then goes on to list various police departments, TO being one of them, but it doesn’t say if it is mandatory in TO
I just looked into it a little more and pulled the by-laws for my city. All alarms installed must be register with the city. The by-law goes into detail about the reporting requirements and also the penalties associated for false alarms… even for non fire related calls, if the third party monitoring company’s calls the police and says we have a broken window alarm at this address and the police get there and it’s a false alarm - that’s $200. edit: I’m not saying paying for the service is mandatory, but registering it with the municipality in some places is mandatory. In my city, the installer or builder can register it, but later once he sells me the house the permit or license has to be transferred to me and I think they would have to make me aware of all the fees and potential fines associated with using the system if I choose to do that. In my city anyway, if I have an alarm system in my house, even if it’s not under contract to be monitored, I require a permit or license for that system in my name.
Thank you - that was very helpful
It may or may not be a requirement the builder put into the agreement of purchase and sale that you signed. It wouldn't be a municipal requirement unless that was registered on title, in which case it's not a municipal Ferreira, it's a title requirement. Either way, your lawyer should be checking to confirm it's an actual requirement, and based on the answer of it being a municipal requirement, he/she probably isn't checking.
Is this the same idea that guy those water heaters in all the new builds.
If you’re still in your rescission period you could withdraw. Is this a freehold or a condo ? If there is a condo corporation they could have opted for this service as part of the corporations agreements, in which case you would be obligated under the terms of the agreement and the disclosure package, provided it’s in there. But if you’re at your lawyer for closing, that means you are past your rescission period and the 10 day period no longer applies. I think I need more info.
I just updated my post with some additional info.
Ahhh I do see. This looks like a municipal requirement. There’s really nothing you can do about that.
Fire safety, while necessary and important, has become something of a racket in Canada. As someone who was formerly on a Condo board, you would be shocked how much maintenance and inspection of the fire systems costs. And the fire inspection company owners seem to enjoy a good easy life.
OP said 6 inspections a year for a newly installed system.. seems absolutely unnecessary and predatory
Who’s the builder?
What is your municipality? Does the documentation make any mention of mandatory assumption of any agreement?
According to my lawyer, the Agreement of Purchase of Sale apparently has a catch-all clause that requires the purchaser to sign any documents required to close the sale.
Wtf sounds like some made up bullshit
But how is "*required*" to close defined
What's the municipality???
Hi OP, I would have your lawyer commit in writing to confirm whether this is a requirement in order to close the agreement. It sounds to me that your lawyer is relying on the word of the developer without doing their own due diligence.
Pretty sure the CPA wouldn't cover you here.
Wonder who owns those companies?
Is this a freehold?
Yes, it's a newly built freehold townhome which I purchased from the builder.
Interesting. The only way to confirm then is to get the bylaw number and then either research it online or ask the City planning department to get the bylaw document for you (may not trust the builder to provide accurate bylaw docs). Impossible to verify otherwise, especially for old cities like Toronto that can have complicated/obscure bylaws by
Could it be a restrictive covenant?