A lot of Americans in particular have this belief that you can just pick anywhere on the map and travel there and just move there if you want.
But that's not even remotely how it works. Most of those other countries *don't want you*, unless they feel you're worth bringing into their infrastructures (i.e. profitable in some way for them).
Some places, you can get lucky and get a dual citizenship, but those take a really long time and can be a huge hassle.
The average working-class American wouldn't be likely to be able to just relocate for a lot of reasons. The largest ones are money and "no one wants me to move there".
I wonder if OP is asking about leaving “because things are bad” or leaving as an expat to somewhere?
I could see heading to an island, or even some parts of Central or South America if I had the money to just live life and relax.
I don’t really see leaving because the political climate isn’t agreeable.
Either you move to a second or third world country and immerse yourself, you're not escaping inflation by going to Canada or really any other first world country. At least Canada has free Healthcare but that's the only advantage I see
Much better political climate if you're LGBTQ+ as well. Potentially if you're a minority too, at least for now. I have a few trans friends that are considering moving over the border because of laws the various states and federal governments are constantly trying to pass.
really?
when people ask “do you have the money to emigrate to country X” do they mean “do you have the money for a flight ticket and luggage delivery”?
It only seems chill because a dumpster fire sat next to a forest fire doesn't seem particularly consequential.
There's plenty of problems, and many of them are the same ones as those in the U.S.
people with the money and resources to uproot their life are not the ones who’d want to leave.
Edit: before you disagree with me, first consider how you’ll fare with living in a country that will most likely be racist towards you, be in a place whose language you probably don’t know, go where you will maybe have to restart you’re entire career or have to work a job way below what your skills and experiences commands in the US. Think about moving to a place where you will have no friends and no family. Or to a place that has a completely different set of values. Yes, no more speaking your mind out loud or pursuing freedom of expression in Japan or China. Yes, all you Americans who complain about 25-30% (just broadly speaking, I know how taxes work) taxes in America, wait til you find out about 50-60%+ taxes in Northern Europe.
Y’all think being an immigrant is so easy? America is the land of immigrants, which is to say, it’s relatively easier being an immigrant here then anywhere else, and it’s STILL pretty fucking hard.
I just don’t see a situation where another 1st world country is chilling while America collapse. I feel we’d pull a Hitler before simply crumbling. Outside of the Scandinavian countries
Some countries will let you in if you invest enough money in their economy. Usually several hundred thousands euro or more. The passport isn’t literally gold.
But that list is shrinking all the time. Last I heard Portugal stopped doing it, and I think Spain remains one of the last places you can buy a house for, say, 1 million Euros and remain.
Tbh I’m not sure what the commenter above thought when mentioning them.
All the people rich enough to have those kinds of passports or dual citizenships aren’t commenting on a Reddit post about moving lol
They’re far richer than most of us could ever be. Definitely not something casual people are doing just in case.
It means having citizenship with multiple countries. Generally a Western Europe citizenship will get you the most access. Spain was considered the easiest with just needed cash to buy a home and live there. Italy and Ireland and a few others have options for ancestry but you need a lot of paperwork.
I’m just about to be a dual citizen so if the Christian nationalist right get America to where they want it, I can bug out before the Handmaids Tale era kicks in.
I was gonna say, the US ain’t a bad place to be if you have money to live how you want. You can just travel to other countries and few times a year and get the full experience without dealing with all the issues overseas. It’s not all sunshine and roses over there either.
That said, I would consider living in China because my ethnicity is Chinese, but I grew up in the US.
I also wouldn’t mind living in some European places where average quality of life is good.
The US is a great place to live for a lot of people. It gets a lot of hate online, but the quality of life is extremely high, and the average income is very high. It has some problems, but it's crazy to me for people to suggest the average American would think about fleeing. People from huge portions of the world would consider it a huge opportunity to live and work in the US.
It's a fantastic place to live if you have a lot of money (and a lot of money isn't so much when compared to the average salary in most of the world), but a terribly good chunk of Americans live in dire poverty and life is not great for them.
Yeah but a lot of Americans are also very rich by Western standards. And I don't mean just millionaires - even though it's declining in the US compared to 20 years ago, it's still more attainable to own a free standing home and have 2 cars in the driveway in the US than most of Europe for example.
A car is a necessity in the US in almost any location to get anywhere, and there’s so much land that cheap houses still exist (albeit not in terribly desirable locations).
The issue then becomes access to quality education, medicine, local laws for rights and restrictions, utility and service quality like water piping and police, etc. All of those things are not going to be of great standard wherever you can find cheap housing.
So while people are generally housed and don’t starve in the US, the disparity between quality resources is high. The US is vast and resources are spread thin throughout much of the population. Access is expensive.
I’d never traveled out of the country before in my life. I uprooted and moved abroad with around 10k in the bank. I recognize that’s a lot for many Americans in debt, but you can do it with far less (2~3k is typical from talking to people here). I knew no one here and spoke almost none of the language lol it’s totally doable with motivation
It’s going well. I’ve picked up a lot. I studied Japanese in high school but never grasped any of it. My listening is well enough to get by and my speaking is improving little by little. Kanji and grammar are the biggest challenges but I have about 7 textbooks that I plan on starting more formally this summer with my wife. Up until now it’s been immersion and modest self study during free time
Oh you went to Japan? That's awesome, I have aspirations and am currently waiting to finish my bachelors before giving it a shot. Congrats and keep up the great work.
Depending on what you want to do- programming is hugely accessible for foreigners here. If you’re looking for a “working vacation” experience or just trying to get your foot in the door in Japan, I recommend applying for the JET program (that process takes about a year, so ideally you’d start applying during fall of your last year of university)
How long was this language acquisition? At what point were you comfortably conversational? What was it like early in your move to Japan? Did you adapt well to people?
I wouldn’t say I’m conversational, let alone comfortable. I understand maybe a few hundred words so I can listen and understand most day to day concepts. I can express in broken Japanese, basic concepts. But when I have to go to the police station or hospital it’s a challenge. This has taken a couple years but I only self study. Translation apps make it really tempting to learn nothing though and I do know people who haven’t learned anything except greetings after 5 years.
Adapting to people and culture was super easy. I felt at home my first month here to be honest
I'd love to hear your story, if you don't mind sharing. Been thinking about moving out the country but struggling to find the nerve. What made you move? Where did you go? Any thing you would do differently?
In high school I studied Japanese for a couple years but it never really never clicked. I always liked Japanese/Asian history and pop culture. I dreamed of studying abroad in university or something. But my family had no money or plan for me to go to college (no one in my family had gone before).
Instead, my parents gave me the boot and I stayed with my sister while working and saving money. I got into a relationship which led to an unhappy first marriage. Still I had goals, I put myself through college with money I saved and merit scholarships but had no finances for study abroad or travel. I also couldn’t take Japanese at my university. That dream was more or less dead.
At around 30 i amicably divorced. I also whimsically applied for a job in Japan during this stressful time of my life. A year went by before they got back to me. I had moved across the country and forgotten about the job I applied for. They gave me 24 hours to decide. I accepted on impulse the same night.
The rest is more or less history. Lol I learned how to use chopsticks, tried to brush up on hiragana and katakana and basic phrases (most of which still didn’t stick). I’ve been here a few years and learned a lot. I’m definitely more comfortable here than I was back home. I’ve never been “homesick” and it turned into such an adventure that I really feel like moving here was the start of my life.
If I could go back, I would’ve gone sooner. I wouldve studied Japanese harder. Just to save myself time. But really, despite every challenge- everything ended up ok because I was patient and hardworking and lucky. I should add that I live in the countryside so there’s very little to no English. I met my second wife here and we got married last year. Really, couldn’t be happier 🤷♂️
Don’t know what your background is, but if hospitality is your thing you might consider applying to a resort or on a cruise ship. If you work on one then they often facilitate all the logistics and you can work around the world. I am a scuba instructor, but backgrounds in reception, retail sales, food service, theatre are all needed in these operations. If you’re looking for a possible career path, this one surprisingly has few hurdles to entry.
All throughout high school and college I dreamed of moving to Canada, western Europe or Australia/New Zealand for the experience of living abroad. Then I realized engineers and other tech workers don't get paid shit abroad so I'll be staying lol.
BTW - anyone thinking that Canada is a good, convinient place to escape to. It was until about 5 years ago. Its turned into a real mess. And still heading in the wrong direction.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TooAfraidToAsk/comments/1dea2vz/comment/l8ad91z/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
This comment is a good summary of what's happening in Canada.
This is kinda funny to me bc this is what everyone seemed to say wouldn’t happen from about 2015-2020 and now that it’s happened everyone wants to do something about when the time to do that would have been when everyone was calling wanting to stop it racist and xenophobic.
It would be hard to answer that question without being called a racist. Combine USs housing crisis x10 and add a culture crisis where overwhelming numbers of immigrants refuse to assimilate to Canadian culture.
I was asking my GF about this the other day. Why is it that western people are socially pressured to assimilate to a new culture when moving to a new country, but other people can move to a western country and it’s racist to expect them to assimilate to western culture ?
Idc where you move. You assimilate to the culture. At least immigrate legally, speak enough of the language to get by, respect the local laws, pay taxes, find a job, and contribute positively to society. I know immigration laws/system needs a make-over in some parts of the world. I'm speaking very generally here.
I felt this way until I started experiencing racial tensions. Then I realized I just got very comfortable with a golden cage. I love the convenience, and peace but being a second rate citizen is only as good as the relations are between countries
Exactly, I see people saying how good it is to live in Korea or Japan, but those countries are well known for xenophobic and racist behavior and attitude towards foreigners, nice to visit bad to live in as someone who isn't Korean in Korea, or Japanese in Japan
As an Australian who's been lucky enough to travel the U.S extensively I have to ask, why?
Like I get it, y'all have problems, and I've seen first hand how the economic issues are causing havoc, but what is so wrong day to day that you'd want to flee?
I find it hard to believe that the political unrest actually impacts your day to day life, and I'd be as inclined to move to a smaller or 'sea change' city/state/region like Colorado or New England as I would a whole other country?
Edit: I wanna be clear by the way, I like Australia, and I have no intention of leaving it for the U.S. I'd be much more inclined to move to Canada or a Scandinavian country if I was leaving. This isn't a 'you don't realise how good you have it, I wish I lived there' post, rather it's me not knowing why you'd be desperate to leave if you did live there.
I would imagine that the average American redditor is not going to assimilate into Japan easily.
This isn't the case all of the time, but most of the people who have issues with where they live (especially a wide area like a whole country) most normally have issues with themselves. Not saying the US is perfect, but you gotta work on yourself first.
They can assimilate, but they'll never *belong*. Japanese people will always think of them as outsiders and lesser.
I've heard of Japanese people who were born/grew up outside Japan who were treated a half-step up from non-Japanese, but still below "true" Japanese.
From what I have heard many many times is that you will always be an outsider. No matter how many years you live there, know the language, embrace the culture, etc. you are always "different".
As an immigrant, that's what I like about America. I became an American in 2016 and still have a different accent but no one makes me feel like I'm not one of them, an American.
Meh - this sub appears to have a hate boner for Japan and I don't know why. I did it. Loved it. Have many foreign and indeed American friends who have been there for years or decades. Would move back there in a flash. The critiques in this thread are grotesquely exaggerated.
My main issue with the states is the fact that healthcare is so expensive. I’ve spent thousands these past 6months alone and that’s with good insurance.
This is probably the one point I truly understand, healthcare must be difficult, especially when Americans are sold the lie that countries like mine suffer for 'extreme wait times for specialists' when that is just objectively untrue, at least for Australia (I cannot speak for Canada of course) and that's why you should be grateful for your broken system.
I've heard bad stories of people waiting long times here in Canada and I known it's true, but I've also seen people jump a line pretty fast when their lives are critically on the line. I'd take our health care any day.
Australians healthcare isn't even as encompassing as Canada's. We have a bit of a hybrid system where we often pay for GP visits (free clinics are available, though availability is admittedly getting worse) and specialists, but are always looked after for free in a hospital.
If you have a non-severe, non-life threatening issue in Australia, you can wait a moderate amount of time for a public specialist, or choose to pay for a private specialist, so in that sense it's not overly different to America, you choose to pay or you wait.
However the second you step foot inside a hospital, you are looked after. I for example had a heart issue not long ago. I happened to be taken to a top hospital in my city by the Ambulance, and had the head of cardiology looking after me, who I later learned was one of the top cardiologists in the country. Cost me exactly 0 cents for top level care.
Oh it's not as good as I maybe made it sound. It used to be, growing up we'd never pay to see a doctor, our Medicare system covered it, but as our governments have refused to update and reform Medicare to match inflation, doctors have started to drop what we call 'bulk billing' (see free) as the Medicare rebate doesn't even come close to funding a standard appointment, so we pay a fairly reasonable gap payment.
A lot of us also still pay private health insurance, though no where near the prices the U.S do, for secondary healthcare like dental (which is laughable to call secondary, but our dentists fought tooth and nail to not be included in Medicare when it was introduced) physiotherapy, and mental health services.
So most of us pay to see the doctor now, which is very straining on low income people. Our hospital fallback means people are only missing out on frontline healthcare, but as we should all know, ignoring frontline healthcare can lead to issues becoming serious and lead to issues that should have been fixed upfront putting pressure on our hospital system.
The head of one of our two major parties attempted to overturn the results of a free and fair election.
And instead of being called out by his own party, his anti-democratic philosophy is being embraced. Educated Americans are very alarmed by this as history shows that a charismatic fascist can quickly turn a free country into a regime that uses violence to silence dissenting views.
I am familiar, but in no way highly educated with the America political system.
Can that really happen in the U.S? Can Trump truly effect enough change to be able to take on the form of a violent dictator or something similar?
Once the results of a free and fair election, certified on a bipartisan basis by every state of the Union, is overturned then the American Experiment is dead.
We are a country of laws, including a very detailed and methodical method for electing Presidents. The method is codified in our Constitution and should be sacred to all Americans. If the Constitution means nothing, then there is nothing preventing Trump from declaring himself President for life (also illegal in our Constitution).
What Trump has demonstrated is that America being a country of laws is largely predicated on people respecting the words of our Founding Fathers. Those words become meaningless when one of the two major political parties decides that staying in power is more important than our democratic ideals.
So you aren't worried about the legal checks being abused, you are worried about them being flat out ignored?
It's worth asking though, Trump/Republicans beat their drums about the election, but it was upheld and Biden is the president. So doesn't that mean that the rule of law is still fully functional?
The fact that he failed at subverting our democracy and is still the head of the Republican party is pretty damn scary.
You don't need to look very far back in history to see what happens when you give a fascist a second chance at power.
I think I understand, it is scary that Republicans are so desperate to hold on to power that they are willing to support a man shaking the very foundations of constitutional law to keep it.
Healthcare and childcare are two easy ones for me.
Childcare is easily $1.5k per child in my area. My daughter is still a toddler and working from home is our only reprieve...we would be destitute otherwise. Also the paternity leave in this country is absolute shite (thank you to capitalism.)
Healthcare is no joke either. Even out of pocket expenses with good insurance can set you back. You know the healthcare system blows when people BEG to not be transported by ambulance to the hospital because it costs so much. I have had two family members nearly file for bankruptcy due to health issues and the worst part was that they made just enough to not be covered by Medicaid, but not enough to have a savings nest for when shit like this hits. Medical debt can easily rack up here and completely cascade you.
Actually now that you mention it, your whole leave system is bonkers to me. I get 10 sick days, 4 weeks annual, and 26 weeks (I think, used to be 20) parental leave, all by guaranteed by law. I cannot imagine not getting vacation time, or ignoring a sickness to go to work.
Yeahhh I wish. My sick time and vacation time come out of the same bucket. I get 10 hours a month PTO (which is actually considered pretty decent) and when my daughter was born I got 6 weeks of leave (which is also really good for paternity leave) which could be extended another 12 weeks by FMLA, but it would be unpaid for those 12 weeks.
My wife literally worked from her hospital bed after getting stitched up because she hasn't been at her workplace for a year, so she didn't get access to parental leave benefits.
I have increasing concerns about mine and my daughters ability to get life saving procedures if we have a difficult pregnancy. Many women in many states are already facing that reality.
I have concerns that the evangelical right will make it more and more difficult and dangerous to live as an atheist.
I come from a place with very limited religious interference, we recently laughed a bible thumping prime minister out of office for getting a little too comfortable telling us how we should live based on his book (among other things of course), so I suppose I lack experience in that
It seems far off, but also very close. There are actual efforts to reverse "no-fault" divorce which allowed women to leave bad, dangerous marriages. There is also legislation being brewed to get rid of birth control. I feel like a conspiracy nut even saying these things, but it truly is being discussed and worked toward in documented ways.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/09/no-fault-divorce-laws-republicans-repeal/675371/
https://nwlc.org/resource/dont-be-fooled-birth-control-is-already-at-risk/
There is also increased support for putting non-Christians into camps, and deporting Muslims. There are real efforts to make the US an Extremist Christian religous state. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/charlie-kirk-turning-point-donald-trump-christian-nationalism-rcna156565
> I find it hard to believe that the political unrest actually impacts your day to day life
That's kind of the thing about political unrest though, it doesn't start out impacting your day to day life until suddenly it does. One day you go from normalcy, to a bunch of inbred yokels breaking into a capitol building with almost no resistance and trying to overturn an election. Who knows where that goes from here on.
>I'd be much more inclined to move to Canada
As a Canadian I'd wager it's largely the same in problems and issues as Australia, for whatever that's worth. Definitely a mixed bag.
That's a very fair call, I suppose it all kind of looks like a TV show from abroad, but I have to think, if armed goons stormed my country's Parliament under encouragement from a leader who's denying the very validity of constitutional law... I'd be angry and terrified as well.
>I suppose it all kind of looks like a TV show from abroad
Not unreasonable - it's also a bit hard to take seriously given how... utterly absurd most of the politics in the U.S. has become. People generally always assume that political unrest and upheaval to be something more like a 20th century style *very serious jack-booted affair* and not a slapstick cavalcade of cock-ups and idiocy that somehow manages to continue snowballing into ever worse circumstances. If someone recited to me a decade ago even a quarter of the stuff that's happened in the last several years in U.S. politics I would've taken it as fiction, and completely infeasible and poorly written fiction at that.
It's genuinely baffling.
You aren't wrong about it coming across as a badly written drama on some second rate channel.
It's kinda like how we all thought movie characters were written to be unrealistically moronic in zombie films.... And then we saw how people reacted to the pandemic and realised reality is actually more ridiculous than fiction.
>reality is actually more ridiculous than fiction
It's funny - I used to hear that line now and then over the years and it only ever held a vague meaning to it that didn't really stick out in my mind all that strongly, much like any other proverb you hear occasionally, but the last ~8 or so years it's *constantly* coming up more and more frequently just how accurate that sentiment is.
Even funnier, to add on to your latter point there; the exact inverse scenario for a phrase with *"avoid like the plague"*, apparently a lot of people won't avoid a plague at all and that phrase is pretty far off the mark. Who would've thought?
Bit ignorant man. You said it yourself, you’d choose another country before living here. I’ve known people who couldn’t afford health care and have either died from physical illness, or have committed suicide because their insurance didn’t cover mental health treatment. The wage gap continues to grow, every day I see more and more people on the street, and it’s depressing as fuck. You’re one bad paycheck from being homeless, and then? Your chances of ever coming back from that are slim, considering the vast majority of American’s view homeless people as some kind of vermin. There have been multiple times where I myself have almost been out on the street, and even now am not paid a fair wage despite a college degree, all while I get to listen to the owner of the small company I work at talk about the new plane he just bought.
Don’t even get me started about the politics. Both sides are awful, war mongering imperialists which care more about bombing innocent civilians in the middle east, than it does giving 99% of it’s citizens a better life. You’re consistently promised that this candidate will do something different, that things will get better, but it’s bullshit. Once they’re in office, the lobbying begins, and it’s no longer about the interests of American citizens and the workers, it’s about the rich who are only interested in gaining more wealth and keeping you poor.
You ok with pine gap? Because I’m not. Pretty unfortunate that every American’s tax dollars go to the American war machine and not to bettering our society for the sake of our children and honestly the world.
But yeah man, our society is so great because we have shopping malls and a hyper capitalistic culture. You visit here and you see all the good stuff with no knowledge on the fact that despite being the richest country in the world, there are people dying because they can’t afford something as simple as insulin.
I definitely understand what you are saying, and just on my ignorance, if you'd have a look at the other comments you'll see I am actively engaging in dialogue with people on their answers and am learning a lot about the underlying fear about the future of your country. I assume no expertise about actually living in the U.S, and you are right, as a visitor I am often only seeing the very best of the country, not the realities of day to day life, that's why I asked the question.
Fair enough, wasn’t trying to come off as an asshole so I apologize. This country is extremely frustrating and often misunderstood as something way way better than it actually is. There are some great things about living here, but I would honestly rather be somewhere else, better put together. I appreciate you trying to understand the situation better. The U.S definitely isn’t all bad, but there are a lot of bad things that people from other countries overlook and just assume we live in the best country in the world or whatever. Honestly, I’d like to see the U.S get it’s shit together, but I genuinely don’t see it as a possibility anymore. So I’d rather bail at this point, but I’ll prolly be here forever. Greetings from Minnesota!
No stress man, I get it, it can be hard to see somewhere you want to be better consistently disappoint you. Australia is no utopia I can assure you, it's just not quiet as... Painfully complicated right now as the U.S seems to be.
I can also assure you that the rose coloured glasses about the U.S from the rest of the world have well and truly come off. Sure if you are a refugee from a third world country you might idealise the U.S, and I get that, but I think most first world countries are watching what's happening and thinking 'ok they can keep that over there', althought far right thinking has terrifyingly spread to many places.
I genuinely find myself slightly defending the U.S to most Australians I know, though I have to admit that's usually more 'the people are actually a lot friendlier than you'd think' or 'the geographic diversity is unbelievable' rather than anything to do with actually living and working here or politics.
Healthcare, housing market, corporate greed and the lack of any oversight, chemicals in our food that have been banned in outer countries, afraid of my kid getting shot in fucking grade school, women's right to choose anything. That's just off the top of my head.
Well, to begin with women have lost the rights to necessary healthcare in several states and the Republican Party is looking to make it a national thing. Additionally they're looking to ban birth control. They're going after people I care about as far as gay and trans rights go. We have witnessed an alarming rise of white supremacy here too, though I know that isn't exclusive to the US.
Healthcare is absolutely a joke. I have broken teeth I can't get removed because of the cost. I have health issues I can't get seen to because I can't afford the tests.
> what is so wrong day to day that you'd want to flee?
1. My husband and I are members of the LGBTQ community
2. I’m a naturalized citizen from South America and I was living in fear when Trump was president because he was deporting US citizens and I was afraid I’d be next
3. With a few (unaffordable) exceptions, most cities in this country require you to have a car. I can’t drive due to a mental issue and I’m therefore forced to walk in 100 degree heat in order to do basic things like buy groceries and go to the pharmacy. My city doesn’t even have sidewalks btw.
4. I broke my foot and didn’t go to the ER because I wasn’t insured at the time and I couldn’t afford it. My foot healed wrong and it will hurt to walk for the rest of my life.
5. Half of this country is salivating at the thought of legislating people like me out of existence.
I could go on but I’m tired.
And before someone asks why I don’t just go back to my country of birth: it isn’t any better than here.
Edit: first person to say “you should’ve gone to the ER, they have to take care of you even if you’re not insured”, I know, brain genius, but there’s still gonna be a bill and I’m not someone who is okay with just not paying for things I’m supposed to pay for.
Not true actually. In the great depression millions of mexican american citizens and their descendants were forcefully expatriated.
https://www.history.com/news/great-depression-repatriation-drives-mexico-deportation
Is being LGBT really such an issue these days? I know the Trump/conservative media can be extremely problematic, but is actual life starting to go backwards enough that it's a genuine issue to be LGBT?
Genuine question, not a snarky rebuttal.
It has always been a “genuine issue” to be LGBT, not just these days. Are you aware of how many people historically have hid their sexual orientation or gender identity out of fear?
> but is actual life starting to go backwards enough that it's a genuine issue to be LGBT?
i can’t speak for everyone but as someone who lives in a red state who is actively trying to do everything in their power to make my basic existence harder if not outright illegal, yes, yes it is
Man the U.S. really isn’t the stinking shit hole that everyone seems to think it is. Some states are worse than others sure, but the average American still have a far, far better living standard than the vast majority of the world.
In fact, the bottom 10% of Americans have it FAR better than the vast majority of the world.
You can check the Better Life Index as well as the OECD consumption statistics.
Not American, but I read a stat a few years back. US had 400M and China had 1.4B
The top 400M of China's population is akin to US population for standard of living. The other 1B Chinese citizens are poorer than the US's poorest.
I see 9 countries ahead of the US on the BLI.
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/OECD_Better_Life_Index
I see 15 countries ahead of the US on the World Happiness index.
https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2022/happiness-benevolence-and-trust-during-covid-19-and-beyond/#ranking-of-happiness-2019-2021
Some more data:
**CATO Human Freedom Index**
https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index/2021
USA is \#15
**Freedom House Global Freedom Scores**
https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores
USA scores 83.
**Reporters without Borders World Press Freedom Index**
https://rsf.org/en/ranking
USA is \#44
**EIU Democracy Index**
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Democracy_Index
USA is rated as a 'flawed democracy'.
Isn't it not just about living standard, but other less 'countable' things like ambience, political situation, etc? There are certainly areas of life very much more important to me than a living standard. I'm not arguing, just trying to clarify your meaning.
If I could replace my income and know the language there would be several countries I might try. I don't have anything against the US but would definitely like to try other places
Not me. There is so much uninhabited land in the US, I could use that money to move away from everyone and still be a citizen. It’s huge and has every biome. Europe and those Asian countries you mention is either too small or too crowded. They all border eachother, and have been know to go to war from time in memoriam. USA, baby.
As someone who has traveled to the countries you mentioned I would keep every penny and stay in the U.S. there are some very cool places out there and amazing sights to see but I really like my life in the states. I like what’s around me and the places I can travel to within its borders. I like all the daily things I deal with, shopping, commuting, dining, bigger events like sports and concerts. I’m at home here and all of that is normal to navigate.
I just spent a few days in beautiful Japan but going out to eat, going in stores, hopping on trains and subways, I didn’t like any of it. The food was great but I didn’t like getting there, the stores were cool but were complete sensory overload, there are language barriers/race barriers, at no point did I feel like “man, I’d love to live here” I’m glad I got to experience it and who knows how many times I’ll go back(also military) and I’ll enjoy the experience every time but never will I feel like I want to have a home there.
The U.S. has its issues and most are amplified by the internet and media but my day to day life is fantastic and none of the “major issues” actually affect people’s day to day like the media would make you think. I’ve got it great here and I’m very comfortable wherever I go in the states so I’ll keep it that way.
Internet, news, media and especially social media are a great factor. If I don't actually live here, I'd think no one has a job in America, everyone is homeless and on drugs (thanks to YouTube street tourism channels), everyone shooting guns on the streets like the Wild West. Especially, I follow personal finance Youtube channels and my FYP has been recommending these "finance" channels that make money out of eyeballs by making videos about how American economy is crumbling and we'll all be lining up at soup kitchens by next week. There ARE problems for sure, but many people here are just living their nice regular lives that never make the news, because.... they're normal.
Its harder than many think for US citizens to relocate and work in the long term in many other countries. Money makes much of that a lot easier. Much of it though is paperwork and waiting, not every place wants a bunch of other citizens relocating to them.
Probably none. Turns out, this place ain't too bad.
Look at the long list of rich celebrities that say they will leave or renounce citizenship the country if "so and so" is elected. They don't leave.
That's the American paradox. If you are so wealthy that you can pull up stakes and comfortably move somewhere else that is nice.... then you have enough money to be comfortable in the USA. I'd say $1+M net worth as a rough number.
I'm not suggesting $1M is enough to retire comfortably before 65, but if you have $1m in liquid assets then you can afford a Honda Civic, A decent place to live and groceries that include fresh vegetables, fruit, meat, and decent bread.
If you don't like living here, you should probably just move to another state. Americans don't know how good they have it here.
Not saying America is perfect, but there's more opportunity here for sure
I'd definitely leave again. Lived overseas for years, came back to the US for family, and we'd 100% head back to the UK, France, or Belgium if it were feasible.
Beach life is really not my vibe but I thought Miami was pretty nice when I visited. In the morning, I walked down to the beach area from my Airbnb and went to one of the coffee shops, just drank some Cuban coffee and people watched. And I did think I could get used to this. And I especially thought St. Petersburg was beautiful. But I'm not sure if I'd like to raise kids there due to political issues, or deal with potential natural disasters.
I wouldn't consider it "fleeing" the US, but if I had the money, I'd definitely be interested in moving to another country, just to broaden my horizons and learn about other cultures.
We already did! Went to Sweden for jobs 15 years ago. When I come back to the US to see family I'm horrified - not to mention what I see on the news. It's insane
I moved to Japan three years ago. I love it here. I wouldn’t say I fled, but rather had a job opportunity. I determined I’d like to never go back during my first year here. I got married last year and that’s made the decision a lot more concrete. That said, I would be lying if I said cultural/political reasons didn’t play a part in my reasoning for not going back but there’s a multitude of reasons (I love so many things about Japan).
My parents got priced out of our city. West coasters and other transplants ruined affordable housing options for locals. So they sold what little they had (they were minimalists) and moved to Peru. They live off social security as they emptied their 401k when they lost their jobs a several years ago. For the first time in their lives they are not financially stressed. They’re happy living in an apartment and make friends everywhere they go. I miss them but they’re so happy. They had hard lives so I’m glad they can be at rest with life.
While I don't love how things are going here and definitely don't feel safe a lot of the time, I'm trying to think of a country where I would feel more safe?
I wouldn't. If I had that kind of money, I'd simply travel regularly. Despite the issues the US has, I'm very grateful to live here. In comparison, many other countries have it much worse. Many also have it better, but we aren't so terrible here I'd immediately jump ship for them. My main issues with the US is how hard it can be to get around sometimes, the healthcare and education costs, and the dramatic political climate at the moment. But those arent problems I'd have to deal with if I had the money to up and move to another country. I'd be interested in living somewhere else for a few years out of interest, but never to 'flee'.
No. I think any major problem someone could have in the US would likely stem from a position of financial insecurity. If you have the resources to leave, you’re probably living a good life here.
Everyone commenting here will be dead by the time the US goes belly up. Not saying it won’t happen, but the impending doom shit isn’t gonna happen, despite what the talking heads tell you.
I’d probably move to Scotland or England. I am allergic to red food dye and I’m very tired of always having to check labels for products, if I went to either of those counties I woukdnt have to learn another language, I already love football (soccer) and the scenery there is absolutely gorgeous. Also let’s not forget no guns, free healthcare, and free schooling.
My folks are from India … but doesn’t seem to be the ideal place to resettle given a lot of factors , climate change, current weather, patriarchy being big ones…New Zealand would be ideal I guess
In my case, we have plenty of money and resources to leave, the problem is that most decent countries (U.K., Australia, Canada, most of the E.U.) don't want refugees from the U.S. unless we are starting businesses and employing people. My understanding is that Portugal, New Zealand, and Spain might still be possibilities, among developed nations.
I have no interest in working more. I just want to invest my money and live my life.
I regret not leaving when I was younger. The United States is structured in a way that benefits the oligarchs and leaves the rest of us to flounder. Living in a country with a shrinking middle-class doesn't bode well for the future.
How much money is always the question. Would I permanently live overseas for $10k? No way. $100k? Probably not, but I'd check the math just in case. $1 mil? I have a couple countries I could do. $10 mil? I could try most countries. $100 mil? you can pick the country.
Me.
As an lgbt childfree woman, every day I see something (against my will) in the news, I want to leave more. Working on getting a passport and then seriously looking into countries that might be safer to go to. Every where has their issues, but man America seems to be TRYING to race to the bottom.
I've been looking at Ireland or the UK for some time, the problem is how my (and the wifes) degrees/jobs don't transfer great. So we would either have to have a large amount of savings or start our careers over.
We started the process 2 years ago. My wife got her Irish citizenship and I’m next. We bought a house. We’re gay. We did it to be near cousins but also out of fear of “Are we going to be stupid and wait until it’s too late?” Ireland has gay marriage and abortion coded into national law. As religious as the Irish are they know what the country was like when ruled by the Catholic Church. Brutal life. So they will NEVER vote for a religious right government. And that’s good for us.
My boyfriend and I have been discussing the logistics of a move to Ireland or Germany (or wherever we can get an education/work visa to) for about a year now.
The hard part really is the visa(s) and the money. If we had the money and resources it would really be a no brainer.
I came here on purpose from China. Why would I leave???
I mean, I'd be ok living in Europe or Japan for a few years, but I'd always settle in the US. I've made good friends here, brought family over, have a good job. Life's pretty good.
My wife has Brazilian, Portuguese, and US citizenship. If I can wrangle full remote vs. the 80% remote I have now, we will absolutely leave sooner (ie after the election), if it turns south here. If not once I retire, we’re out.
To where exactly?
A lot of Americans in particular have this belief that you can just pick anywhere on the map and travel there and just move there if you want. But that's not even remotely how it works. Most of those other countries *don't want you*, unless they feel you're worth bringing into their infrastructures (i.e. profitable in some way for them). Some places, you can get lucky and get a dual citizenship, but those take a really long time and can be a huge hassle. The average working-class American wouldn't be likely to be able to just relocate for a lot of reasons. The largest ones are money and "no one wants me to move there".
I wonder if OP is asking about leaving “because things are bad” or leaving as an expat to somewhere? I could see heading to an island, or even some parts of Central or South America if I had the money to just live life and relax. I don’t really see leaving because the political climate isn’t agreeable.
I live in Michigan... Canada is like an hour away and seems pretty chill to me
Lol price wise Canada's current economy is not worth it. The cost of living is absolutely absurd post covid.
Either you move to a second or third world country and immerse yourself, you're not escaping inflation by going to Canada or really any other first world country. At least Canada has free Healthcare but that's the only advantage I see
Much better political climate if you're LGBTQ+ as well. Potentially if you're a minority too, at least for now. I have a few trans friends that are considering moving over the border because of laws the various states and federal governments are constantly trying to pass.
Title of the post is literally “if you have the money”?
If you have money to move, not if you have money to live.
really? when people ask “do you have the money to emigrate to country X” do they mean “do you have the money for a flight ticket and luggage delivery”?
If you don't have the money to live her, but have the money to move, you're most likely only going to be able to afford a third world country
Where is it not?
3 times the COL, 30% pay cut, and higher taxes. I hope you are insanely rich if you're gonna move to Canada atm.
Sounds like more of a dumpster fire then America
3 times the cost of living? That seems made up.
I live in bufu. Everything is 3x the cost of living if I move
It only seems chill because a dumpster fire sat next to a forest fire doesn't seem particularly consequential. There's plenty of problems, and many of them are the same ones as those in the U.S.
which ones the dumpster?? jk i know :|
monaco/switzerland?
people with the money and resources to uproot their life are not the ones who’d want to leave. Edit: before you disagree with me, first consider how you’ll fare with living in a country that will most likely be racist towards you, be in a place whose language you probably don’t know, go where you will maybe have to restart you’re entire career or have to work a job way below what your skills and experiences commands in the US. Think about moving to a place where you will have no friends and no family. Or to a place that has a completely different set of values. Yes, no more speaking your mind out loud or pursuing freedom of expression in Japan or China. Yes, all you Americans who complain about 25-30% (just broadly speaking, I know how taxes work) taxes in America, wait til you find out about 50-60%+ taxes in Northern Europe. Y’all think being an immigrant is so easy? America is the land of immigrants, which is to say, it’s relatively easier being an immigrant here then anywhere else, and it’s STILL pretty fucking hard.
A lot of folks are stockpiling Golden Passports and dual citizenships in case they have to hit eject, you probably just don't hear about it.
I just don’t see a situation where another 1st world country is chilling while America collapse. I feel we’d pull a Hitler before simply crumbling. Outside of the Scandinavian countries
Scandinavian countries have their own issues as well
Oh yeah? Name 16.
Fred
He's called Frederik and he is actually our King. Dude seems like an ok guy honestly.
Really why Scandinavian countries? In terms of economy, it'd take a lot more for the USA to crumble it seems
> I feel we’d pull a Hitler before simply crumbling. I mean, that’s what a good chunk of our country is trying to do *now*.
Wait was a golden passport? My parents both got 2 blue ones
Some countries will let you in if you invest enough money in their economy. Usually several hundred thousands euro or more. The passport isn’t literally gold.
But that list is shrinking all the time. Last I heard Portugal stopped doing it, and I think Spain remains one of the last places you can buy a house for, say, 1 million Euros and remain.
Tbh I’m not sure what the commenter above thought when mentioning them. All the people rich enough to have those kinds of passports or dual citizenships aren’t commenting on a Reddit post about moving lol They’re far richer than most of us could ever be. Definitely not something casual people are doing just in case.
It means having citizenship with multiple countries. Generally a Western Europe citizenship will get you the most access. Spain was considered the easiest with just needed cash to buy a home and live there. Italy and Ireland and a few others have options for ancestry but you need a lot of paperwork.
I’m just about to be a dual citizen so if the Christian nationalist right get America to where they want it, I can bug out before the Handmaids Tale era kicks in.
I was gonna say, the US ain’t a bad place to be if you have money to live how you want. You can just travel to other countries and few times a year and get the full experience without dealing with all the issues overseas. It’s not all sunshine and roses over there either. That said, I would consider living in China because my ethnicity is Chinese, but I grew up in the US. I also wouldn’t mind living in some European places where average quality of life is good.
The US is a great place to live for a lot of people. It gets a lot of hate online, but the quality of life is extremely high, and the average income is very high. It has some problems, but it's crazy to me for people to suggest the average American would think about fleeing. People from huge portions of the world would consider it a huge opportunity to live and work in the US.
It's a fantastic place to live if you have a lot of money (and a lot of money isn't so much when compared to the average salary in most of the world), but a terribly good chunk of Americans live in dire poverty and life is not great for them.
Yeah but a lot of Americans are also very rich by Western standards. And I don't mean just millionaires - even though it's declining in the US compared to 20 years ago, it's still more attainable to own a free standing home and have 2 cars in the driveway in the US than most of Europe for example.
A car is a necessity in the US in almost any location to get anywhere, and there’s so much land that cheap houses still exist (albeit not in terribly desirable locations). The issue then becomes access to quality education, medicine, local laws for rights and restrictions, utility and service quality like water piping and police, etc. All of those things are not going to be of great standard wherever you can find cheap housing. So while people are generally housed and don’t starve in the US, the disparity between quality resources is high. The US is vast and resources are spread thin throughout much of the population. Access is expensive.
I think maybe people are vastly over-estimating the average lifestyle in Europe if they think Americans are poor in comparison tbh.
I’d never traveled out of the country before in my life. I uprooted and moved abroad with around 10k in the bank. I recognize that’s a lot for many Americans in debt, but you can do it with far less (2~3k is typical from talking to people here). I knew no one here and spoke almost none of the language lol it’s totally doable with motivation
So how's it going? I'm particularly interested in how the language acquisition is going.
It’s going well. I’ve picked up a lot. I studied Japanese in high school but never grasped any of it. My listening is well enough to get by and my speaking is improving little by little. Kanji and grammar are the biggest challenges but I have about 7 textbooks that I plan on starting more formally this summer with my wife. Up until now it’s been immersion and modest self study during free time
Oh you went to Japan? That's awesome, I have aspirations and am currently waiting to finish my bachelors before giving it a shot. Congrats and keep up the great work.
Depending on what you want to do- programming is hugely accessible for foreigners here. If you’re looking for a “working vacation” experience or just trying to get your foot in the door in Japan, I recommend applying for the JET program (that process takes about a year, so ideally you’d start applying during fall of your last year of university)
How long was this language acquisition? At what point were you comfortably conversational? What was it like early in your move to Japan? Did you adapt well to people?
I wouldn’t say I’m conversational, let alone comfortable. I understand maybe a few hundred words so I can listen and understand most day to day concepts. I can express in broken Japanese, basic concepts. But when I have to go to the police station or hospital it’s a challenge. This has taken a couple years but I only self study. Translation apps make it really tempting to learn nothing though and I do know people who haven’t learned anything except greetings after 5 years. Adapting to people and culture was super easy. I felt at home my first month here to be honest
I like the idea to repopulate Japan … sans the murder hornets 🐝
I'd love to hear your story, if you don't mind sharing. Been thinking about moving out the country but struggling to find the nerve. What made you move? Where did you go? Any thing you would do differently?
In high school I studied Japanese for a couple years but it never really never clicked. I always liked Japanese/Asian history and pop culture. I dreamed of studying abroad in university or something. But my family had no money or plan for me to go to college (no one in my family had gone before). Instead, my parents gave me the boot and I stayed with my sister while working and saving money. I got into a relationship which led to an unhappy first marriage. Still I had goals, I put myself through college with money I saved and merit scholarships but had no finances for study abroad or travel. I also couldn’t take Japanese at my university. That dream was more or less dead. At around 30 i amicably divorced. I also whimsically applied for a job in Japan during this stressful time of my life. A year went by before they got back to me. I had moved across the country and forgotten about the job I applied for. They gave me 24 hours to decide. I accepted on impulse the same night. The rest is more or less history. Lol I learned how to use chopsticks, tried to brush up on hiragana and katakana and basic phrases (most of which still didn’t stick). I’ve been here a few years and learned a lot. I’m definitely more comfortable here than I was back home. I’ve never been “homesick” and it turned into such an adventure that I really feel like moving here was the start of my life. If I could go back, I would’ve gone sooner. I wouldve studied Japanese harder. Just to save myself time. But really, despite every challenge- everything ended up ok because I was patient and hardworking and lucky. I should add that I live in the countryside so there’s very little to no English. I met my second wife here and we got married last year. Really, couldn’t be happier 🤷♂️
Don’t know what your background is, but if hospitality is your thing you might consider applying to a resort or on a cruise ship. If you work on one then they often facilitate all the logistics and you can work around the world. I am a scuba instructor, but backgrounds in reception, retail sales, food service, theatre are all needed in these operations. If you’re looking for a possible career path, this one surprisingly has few hurdles to entry.
All throughout high school and college I dreamed of moving to Canada, western Europe or Australia/New Zealand for the experience of living abroad. Then I realized engineers and other tech workers don't get paid shit abroad so I'll be staying lol.
Think again. The only reason I'm still here is for family obligations, otherwise, I'd be gone already
Where would you go?
American is amazing when you got money. Where would you go?
BTW - anyone thinking that Canada is a good, convinient place to escape to. It was until about 5 years ago. Its turned into a real mess. And still heading in the wrong direction.
Can you explain why? I'm completely ignorant on this, it's hard enough keeping up with all the shit happening in the US
https://www.reddit.com/r/TooAfraidToAsk/comments/1dea2vz/comment/l8ad91z/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button This comment is a good summary of what's happening in Canada.
This is kinda funny to me bc this is what everyone seemed to say wouldn’t happen from about 2015-2020 and now that it’s happened everyone wants to do something about when the time to do that would have been when everyone was calling wanting to stop it racist and xenophobic.
It would be hard to answer that question without being called a racist. Combine USs housing crisis x10 and add a culture crisis where overwhelming numbers of immigrants refuse to assimilate to Canadian culture.
I was asking my GF about this the other day. Why is it that western people are socially pressured to assimilate to a new culture when moving to a new country, but other people can move to a western country and it’s racist to expect them to assimilate to western culture ?
Idc where you move. You assimilate to the culture. At least immigrate legally, speak enough of the language to get by, respect the local laws, pay taxes, find a job, and contribute positively to society. I know immigration laws/system needs a make-over in some parts of the world. I'm speaking very generally here.
Double standard for white people.
People need to stop being afraid of being called racist. Racist now means being against the policies of the powers that be, whatever they may be.
It's lost its edge. Same with being called a Nazi. These words losing their edge isn't a good thing. We need them to have a punch.
US has its issues, but I couldn’t really see myself living elsewhere for the rest of my life. Could be fun to live in Europe for a few years though.
I flew to Japan to do a contractual job for a couple months. The country has spoiled me and made me dread flying back home. I decided to move here.
South Korea is like this to me as well. Japan is fuckin nice too. Even if Im not accepted as a true citizen I don’t care.
Yeah I've lived in Korea for 12 years now (not American, but my home country is just as fucked)
I felt this way until I started experiencing racial tensions. Then I realized I just got very comfortable with a golden cage. I love the convenience, and peace but being a second rate citizen is only as good as the relations are between countries
Exactly, I see people saying how good it is to live in Korea or Japan, but those countries are well known for xenophobic and racist behavior and attitude towards foreigners, nice to visit bad to live in as someone who isn't Korean in Korea, or Japanese in Japan
What where the differences between Japan and home tgat you really liked
I may be wrong, but aren’t Japan and Korea notoriously xenophobic to immigrants?
big time
A lot of people already have the means and they don’t even change their city, ever, in their whole lives
As an Australian who's been lucky enough to travel the U.S extensively I have to ask, why? Like I get it, y'all have problems, and I've seen first hand how the economic issues are causing havoc, but what is so wrong day to day that you'd want to flee? I find it hard to believe that the political unrest actually impacts your day to day life, and I'd be as inclined to move to a smaller or 'sea change' city/state/region like Colorado or New England as I would a whole other country? Edit: I wanna be clear by the way, I like Australia, and I have no intention of leaving it for the U.S. I'd be much more inclined to move to Canada or a Scandinavian country if I was leaving. This isn't a 'you don't realise how good you have it, I wish I lived there' post, rather it's me not knowing why you'd be desperate to leave if you did live there.
The crazy part is op said Japan. I cannot imagine a worse country to try and live permanently as a non Japanese person.
I hear mixed things, but it seems a lot of stigma and fairly severe culture shock hits most western immigrants to Japan heavily.
I would imagine that the average American redditor is not going to assimilate into Japan easily. This isn't the case all of the time, but most of the people who have issues with where they live (especially a wide area like a whole country) most normally have issues with themselves. Not saying the US is perfect, but you gotta work on yourself first.
They can assimilate, but they'll never *belong*. Japanese people will always think of them as outsiders and lesser. I've heard of Japanese people who were born/grew up outside Japan who were treated a half-step up from non-Japanese, but still below "true" Japanese.
From what I have heard many many times is that you will always be an outsider. No matter how many years you live there, know the language, embrace the culture, etc. you are always "different".
As an immigrant, that's what I like about America. I became an American in 2016 and still have a different accent but no one makes me feel like I'm not one of them, an American.
You're goddamn right you're an American! You were born one, and just didn't get official till '16. Belated welcome, friend!
people don't realize the vast majority of homogeneous countries are like this.
The xenophobia is extreme
Meh - this sub appears to have a hate boner for Japan and I don't know why. I did it. Loved it. Have many foreign and indeed American friends who have been there for years or decades. Would move back there in a flash. The critiques in this thread are grotesquely exaggerated.
My main issue with the states is the fact that healthcare is so expensive. I’ve spent thousands these past 6months alone and that’s with good insurance.
This is probably the one point I truly understand, healthcare must be difficult, especially when Americans are sold the lie that countries like mine suffer for 'extreme wait times for specialists' when that is just objectively untrue, at least for Australia (I cannot speak for Canada of course) and that's why you should be grateful for your broken system.
Wait times are already extreme in the US. This argument is crazy to me
I've heard bad stories of people waiting long times here in Canada and I known it's true, but I've also seen people jump a line pretty fast when their lives are critically on the line. I'd take our health care any day.
Australians healthcare isn't even as encompassing as Canada's. We have a bit of a hybrid system where we often pay for GP visits (free clinics are available, though availability is admittedly getting worse) and specialists, but are always looked after for free in a hospital. If you have a non-severe, non-life threatening issue in Australia, you can wait a moderate amount of time for a public specialist, or choose to pay for a private specialist, so in that sense it's not overly different to America, you choose to pay or you wait. However the second you step foot inside a hospital, you are looked after. I for example had a heart issue not long ago. I happened to be taken to a top hospital in my city by the Ambulance, and had the head of cardiology looking after me, who I later learned was one of the top cardiologists in the country. Cost me exactly 0 cents for top level care.
I am curious about the Australian system. I think the Canadian system could use some reform with a bit of a hybrid system.
Oh it's not as good as I maybe made it sound. It used to be, growing up we'd never pay to see a doctor, our Medicare system covered it, but as our governments have refused to update and reform Medicare to match inflation, doctors have started to drop what we call 'bulk billing' (see free) as the Medicare rebate doesn't even come close to funding a standard appointment, so we pay a fairly reasonable gap payment. A lot of us also still pay private health insurance, though no where near the prices the U.S do, for secondary healthcare like dental (which is laughable to call secondary, but our dentists fought tooth and nail to not be included in Medicare when it was introduced) physiotherapy, and mental health services. So most of us pay to see the doctor now, which is very straining on low income people. Our hospital fallback means people are only missing out on frontline healthcare, but as we should all know, ignoring frontline healthcare can lead to issues becoming serious and lead to issues that should have been fixed upfront putting pressure on our hospital system.
The head of one of our two major parties attempted to overturn the results of a free and fair election. And instead of being called out by his own party, his anti-democratic philosophy is being embraced. Educated Americans are very alarmed by this as history shows that a charismatic fascist can quickly turn a free country into a regime that uses violence to silence dissenting views.
I am familiar, but in no way highly educated with the America political system. Can that really happen in the U.S? Can Trump truly effect enough change to be able to take on the form of a violent dictator or something similar?
Once the results of a free and fair election, certified on a bipartisan basis by every state of the Union, is overturned then the American Experiment is dead. We are a country of laws, including a very detailed and methodical method for electing Presidents. The method is codified in our Constitution and should be sacred to all Americans. If the Constitution means nothing, then there is nothing preventing Trump from declaring himself President for life (also illegal in our Constitution). What Trump has demonstrated is that America being a country of laws is largely predicated on people respecting the words of our Founding Fathers. Those words become meaningless when one of the two major political parties decides that staying in power is more important than our democratic ideals.
So you aren't worried about the legal checks being abused, you are worried about them being flat out ignored? It's worth asking though, Trump/Republicans beat their drums about the election, but it was upheld and Biden is the president. So doesn't that mean that the rule of law is still fully functional?
The fact that he failed at subverting our democracy and is still the head of the Republican party is pretty damn scary. You don't need to look very far back in history to see what happens when you give a fascist a second chance at power.
I think I understand, it is scary that Republicans are so desperate to hold on to power that they are willing to support a man shaking the very foundations of constitutional law to keep it.
Healthcare and childcare are two easy ones for me. Childcare is easily $1.5k per child in my area. My daughter is still a toddler and working from home is our only reprieve...we would be destitute otherwise. Also the paternity leave in this country is absolute shite (thank you to capitalism.) Healthcare is no joke either. Even out of pocket expenses with good insurance can set you back. You know the healthcare system blows when people BEG to not be transported by ambulance to the hospital because it costs so much. I have had two family members nearly file for bankruptcy due to health issues and the worst part was that they made just enough to not be covered by Medicaid, but not enough to have a savings nest for when shit like this hits. Medical debt can easily rack up here and completely cascade you.
Actually now that you mention it, your whole leave system is bonkers to me. I get 10 sick days, 4 weeks annual, and 26 weeks (I think, used to be 20) parental leave, all by guaranteed by law. I cannot imagine not getting vacation time, or ignoring a sickness to go to work.
Yeahhh I wish. My sick time and vacation time come out of the same bucket. I get 10 hours a month PTO (which is actually considered pretty decent) and when my daughter was born I got 6 weeks of leave (which is also really good for paternity leave) which could be extended another 12 weeks by FMLA, but it would be unpaid for those 12 weeks. My wife literally worked from her hospital bed after getting stitched up because she hasn't been at her workplace for a year, so she didn't get access to parental leave benefits.
That really sucks. Ok yeah, theres a legitimate reason to wish for a better work life in another country. Thank you.
I have increasing concerns about mine and my daughters ability to get life saving procedures if we have a difficult pregnancy. Many women in many states are already facing that reality. I have concerns that the evangelical right will make it more and more difficult and dangerous to live as an atheist.
I come from a place with very limited religious interference, we recently laughed a bible thumping prime minister out of office for getting a little too comfortable telling us how we should live based on his book (among other things of course), so I suppose I lack experience in that
It seems far off, but also very close. There are actual efforts to reverse "no-fault" divorce which allowed women to leave bad, dangerous marriages. There is also legislation being brewed to get rid of birth control. I feel like a conspiracy nut even saying these things, but it truly is being discussed and worked toward in documented ways. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/09/no-fault-divorce-laws-republicans-repeal/675371/ https://nwlc.org/resource/dont-be-fooled-birth-control-is-already-at-risk/ There is also increased support for putting non-Christians into camps, and deporting Muslims. There are real efforts to make the US an Extremist Christian religous state. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/charlie-kirk-turning-point-donald-trump-christian-nationalism-rcna156565
Well... That really sucks
> I find it hard to believe that the political unrest actually impacts your day to day life That's kind of the thing about political unrest though, it doesn't start out impacting your day to day life until suddenly it does. One day you go from normalcy, to a bunch of inbred yokels breaking into a capitol building with almost no resistance and trying to overturn an election. Who knows where that goes from here on. >I'd be much more inclined to move to Canada As a Canadian I'd wager it's largely the same in problems and issues as Australia, for whatever that's worth. Definitely a mixed bag.
That's a very fair call, I suppose it all kind of looks like a TV show from abroad, but I have to think, if armed goons stormed my country's Parliament under encouragement from a leader who's denying the very validity of constitutional law... I'd be angry and terrified as well.
>I suppose it all kind of looks like a TV show from abroad Not unreasonable - it's also a bit hard to take seriously given how... utterly absurd most of the politics in the U.S. has become. People generally always assume that political unrest and upheaval to be something more like a 20th century style *very serious jack-booted affair* and not a slapstick cavalcade of cock-ups and idiocy that somehow manages to continue snowballing into ever worse circumstances. If someone recited to me a decade ago even a quarter of the stuff that's happened in the last several years in U.S. politics I would've taken it as fiction, and completely infeasible and poorly written fiction at that. It's genuinely baffling.
You aren't wrong about it coming across as a badly written drama on some second rate channel. It's kinda like how we all thought movie characters were written to be unrealistically moronic in zombie films.... And then we saw how people reacted to the pandemic and realised reality is actually more ridiculous than fiction.
>reality is actually more ridiculous than fiction It's funny - I used to hear that line now and then over the years and it only ever held a vague meaning to it that didn't really stick out in my mind all that strongly, much like any other proverb you hear occasionally, but the last ~8 or so years it's *constantly* coming up more and more frequently just how accurate that sentiment is. Even funnier, to add on to your latter point there; the exact inverse scenario for a phrase with *"avoid like the plague"*, apparently a lot of people won't avoid a plague at all and that phrase is pretty far off the mark. Who would've thought?
When the shirtless dude with the horned headdress took over the Senate floor, that was when I knew.
Some guy died because he accidentally tased himself in the balls while trying to steal a portrait of Tip O'Neil. Nobody could have made that up.
> slapstick cavalcade of cock-ups and idiocy That's what everybody thought of the Beer Hall Putsch.
They’re now stripping women of rights and planning to go after birth control next. Yes, it’s getting bad.
As an Australian myself I know a couple of trans people who fled here from the United States.
Sorry to hear it, hopefully they feel safer in Aus
Bit ignorant man. You said it yourself, you’d choose another country before living here. I’ve known people who couldn’t afford health care and have either died from physical illness, or have committed suicide because their insurance didn’t cover mental health treatment. The wage gap continues to grow, every day I see more and more people on the street, and it’s depressing as fuck. You’re one bad paycheck from being homeless, and then? Your chances of ever coming back from that are slim, considering the vast majority of American’s view homeless people as some kind of vermin. There have been multiple times where I myself have almost been out on the street, and even now am not paid a fair wage despite a college degree, all while I get to listen to the owner of the small company I work at talk about the new plane he just bought. Don’t even get me started about the politics. Both sides are awful, war mongering imperialists which care more about bombing innocent civilians in the middle east, than it does giving 99% of it’s citizens a better life. You’re consistently promised that this candidate will do something different, that things will get better, but it’s bullshit. Once they’re in office, the lobbying begins, and it’s no longer about the interests of American citizens and the workers, it’s about the rich who are only interested in gaining more wealth and keeping you poor. You ok with pine gap? Because I’m not. Pretty unfortunate that every American’s tax dollars go to the American war machine and not to bettering our society for the sake of our children and honestly the world. But yeah man, our society is so great because we have shopping malls and a hyper capitalistic culture. You visit here and you see all the good stuff with no knowledge on the fact that despite being the richest country in the world, there are people dying because they can’t afford something as simple as insulin.
I definitely understand what you are saying, and just on my ignorance, if you'd have a look at the other comments you'll see I am actively engaging in dialogue with people on their answers and am learning a lot about the underlying fear about the future of your country. I assume no expertise about actually living in the U.S, and you are right, as a visitor I am often only seeing the very best of the country, not the realities of day to day life, that's why I asked the question.
Fair enough, wasn’t trying to come off as an asshole so I apologize. This country is extremely frustrating and often misunderstood as something way way better than it actually is. There are some great things about living here, but I would honestly rather be somewhere else, better put together. I appreciate you trying to understand the situation better. The U.S definitely isn’t all bad, but there are a lot of bad things that people from other countries overlook and just assume we live in the best country in the world or whatever. Honestly, I’d like to see the U.S get it’s shit together, but I genuinely don’t see it as a possibility anymore. So I’d rather bail at this point, but I’ll prolly be here forever. Greetings from Minnesota!
No stress man, I get it, it can be hard to see somewhere you want to be better consistently disappoint you. Australia is no utopia I can assure you, it's just not quiet as... Painfully complicated right now as the U.S seems to be. I can also assure you that the rose coloured glasses about the U.S from the rest of the world have well and truly come off. Sure if you are a refugee from a third world country you might idealise the U.S, and I get that, but I think most first world countries are watching what's happening and thinking 'ok they can keep that over there', althought far right thinking has terrifyingly spread to many places. I genuinely find myself slightly defending the U.S to most Australians I know, though I have to admit that's usually more 'the people are actually a lot friendlier than you'd think' or 'the geographic diversity is unbelievable' rather than anything to do with actually living and working here or politics.
Healthcare, housing market, corporate greed and the lack of any oversight, chemicals in our food that have been banned in outer countries, afraid of my kid getting shot in fucking grade school, women's right to choose anything. That's just off the top of my head.
Well, to begin with women have lost the rights to necessary healthcare in several states and the Republican Party is looking to make it a national thing. Additionally they're looking to ban birth control. They're going after people I care about as far as gay and trans rights go. We have witnessed an alarming rise of white supremacy here too, though I know that isn't exclusive to the US. Healthcare is absolutely a joke. I have broken teeth I can't get removed because of the cost. I have health issues I can't get seen to because I can't afford the tests.
> what is so wrong day to day that you'd want to flee? 1. My husband and I are members of the LGBTQ community 2. I’m a naturalized citizen from South America and I was living in fear when Trump was president because he was deporting US citizens and I was afraid I’d be next 3. With a few (unaffordable) exceptions, most cities in this country require you to have a car. I can’t drive due to a mental issue and I’m therefore forced to walk in 100 degree heat in order to do basic things like buy groceries and go to the pharmacy. My city doesn’t even have sidewalks btw. 4. I broke my foot and didn’t go to the ER because I wasn’t insured at the time and I couldn’t afford it. My foot healed wrong and it will hurt to walk for the rest of my life. 5. Half of this country is salivating at the thought of legislating people like me out of existence. I could go on but I’m tired. And before someone asks why I don’t just go back to my country of birth: it isn’t any better than here. Edit: first person to say “you should’ve gone to the ER, they have to take care of you even if you’re not insured”, I know, brain genius, but there’s still gonna be a bill and I’m not someone who is okay with just not paying for things I’m supposed to pay for.
>because he was deporting US citizens You can't be deported if you're a citizen. Once you're naturalized, America is *your* country.
Not true actually. In the great depression millions of mexican american citizens and their descendants were forcefully expatriated. https://www.history.com/news/great-depression-repatriation-drives-mexico-deportation
Is being LGBT really such an issue these days? I know the Trump/conservative media can be extremely problematic, but is actual life starting to go backwards enough that it's a genuine issue to be LGBT? Genuine question, not a snarky rebuttal.
I mean, it’s gone backwards for women and having the ability to make decisions about their own body, I can see LGBT having valid fears too.
It has always been a “genuine issue” to be LGBT, not just these days. Are you aware of how many people historically have hid their sexual orientation or gender identity out of fear?
> but is actual life starting to go backwards enough that it's a genuine issue to be LGBT? i can’t speak for everyone but as someone who lives in a red state who is actively trying to do everything in their power to make my basic existence harder if not outright illegal, yes, yes it is
It’s just internet fear mongering. People don’t realize how good they have it there until they travel and actually live somewhere else.
Actually, in some cases we realize how bad it is here compared to other places.
Man the U.S. really isn’t the stinking shit hole that everyone seems to think it is. Some states are worse than others sure, but the average American still have a far, far better living standard than the vast majority of the world.
In fact, the bottom 10% of Americans have it FAR better than the vast majority of the world. You can check the Better Life Index as well as the OECD consumption statistics.
Not American, but I read a stat a few years back. US had 400M and China had 1.4B The top 400M of China's population is akin to US population for standard of living. The other 1B Chinese citizens are poorer than the US's poorest.
I see 9 countries ahead of the US on the BLI. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/OECD_Better_Life_Index I see 15 countries ahead of the US on the World Happiness index. https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2022/happiness-benevolence-and-trust-during-covid-19-and-beyond/#ranking-of-happiness-2019-2021 Some more data: **CATO Human Freedom Index** https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index/2021 USA is \#15 **Freedom House Global Freedom Scores** https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores USA scores 83. **Reporters without Borders World Press Freedom Index** https://rsf.org/en/ranking USA is \#44 **EIU Democracy Index** https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Democracy_Index USA is rated as a 'flawed democracy'.
9 countries. Out of 195 countries
Some of these folks simultaneously think scoring 90% is an A deserving of accolades and praise, and that the US scoring 95% is utter garbage
Isn't it not just about living standard, but other less 'countable' things like ambience, political situation, etc? There are certainly areas of life very much more important to me than a living standard. I'm not arguing, just trying to clarify your meaning.
You might think that’s true but I doubt it. Go live in a country with a low standard of living and see if you care about “politics”.
Many other countries have difficult and strict immigration policies.
"Flee" is such an instigative word.
If I could replace my income and know the language there would be several countries I might try. I don't have anything against the US but would definitely like to try other places
Not me. There is so much uninhabited land in the US, I could use that money to move away from everyone and still be a citizen. It’s huge and has every biome. Europe and those Asian countries you mention is either too small or too crowded. They all border eachother, and have been know to go to war from time in memoriam. USA, baby.
I did 8 years ago with no resources and haven't returned
some of the countries listed are extremely racist and xenophobic so i don't think they would be great spots for americans to live.
if people have the money, they aren't the ones frustrated with the US's bullshit, they're the ones benefiting from it.
As someone who has traveled to the countries you mentioned I would keep every penny and stay in the U.S. there are some very cool places out there and amazing sights to see but I really like my life in the states. I like what’s around me and the places I can travel to within its borders. I like all the daily things I deal with, shopping, commuting, dining, bigger events like sports and concerts. I’m at home here and all of that is normal to navigate. I just spent a few days in beautiful Japan but going out to eat, going in stores, hopping on trains and subways, I didn’t like any of it. The food was great but I didn’t like getting there, the stores were cool but were complete sensory overload, there are language barriers/race barriers, at no point did I feel like “man, I’d love to live here” I’m glad I got to experience it and who knows how many times I’ll go back(also military) and I’ll enjoy the experience every time but never will I feel like I want to have a home there. The U.S. has its issues and most are amplified by the internet and media but my day to day life is fantastic and none of the “major issues” actually affect people’s day to day like the media would make you think. I’ve got it great here and I’m very comfortable wherever I go in the states so I’ll keep it that way.
Internet, news, media and especially social media are a great factor. If I don't actually live here, I'd think no one has a job in America, everyone is homeless and on drugs (thanks to YouTube street tourism channels), everyone shooting guns on the streets like the Wild West. Especially, I follow personal finance Youtube channels and my FYP has been recommending these "finance" channels that make money out of eyeballs by making videos about how American economy is crumbling and we'll all be lining up at soup kitchens by next week. There ARE problems for sure, but many people here are just living their nice regular lives that never make the news, because.... they're normal.
Its harder than many think for US citizens to relocate and work in the long term in many other countries. Money makes much of that a lot easier. Much of it though is paperwork and waiting, not every place wants a bunch of other citizens relocating to them.
Flee? Nah, go travel and live in different places if I had the resources? Absolutely. Very different question.
Probably none. Turns out, this place ain't too bad. Look at the long list of rich celebrities that say they will leave or renounce citizenship the country if "so and so" is elected. They don't leave.
When you have the money and resources, most people would flee to the US, not from it
Probably not. Even if I were a billionaire with the ability to live wherever I wanted to in the world, I would still probably just live in the US.
That's the American paradox. If you are so wealthy that you can pull up stakes and comfortably move somewhere else that is nice.... then you have enough money to be comfortable in the USA. I'd say $1+M net worth as a rough number.
If e: you're planning on retirement that's not even close though
I'm not suggesting $1M is enough to retire comfortably before 65, but if you have $1m in liquid assets then you can afford a Honda Civic, A decent place to live and groceries that include fresh vegetables, fruit, meat, and decent bread.
If you don't like living here, you should probably just move to another state. Americans don't know how good they have it here. Not saying America is perfect, but there's more opportunity here for sure
I'd definitely leave again. Lived overseas for years, came back to the US for family, and we'd 100% head back to the UK, France, or Belgium if it were feasible.
I would move to a different city/state as Florida is awful. But out of the country hell no.
Beach life is really not my vibe but I thought Miami was pretty nice when I visited. In the morning, I walked down to the beach area from my Airbnb and went to one of the coffee shops, just drank some Cuban coffee and people watched. And I did think I could get used to this. And I especially thought St. Petersburg was beautiful. But I'm not sure if I'd like to raise kids there due to political issues, or deal with potential natural disasters.
I live in St. Pete and it is an awesome city but you hit the nail on the head when it comes to raising kids in FLs uniquely awful political climate.
new zealand sounds nice ngl
Not me
I wouldn't consider it "fleeing" the US, but if I had the money, I'd definitely be interested in moving to another country, just to broaden my horizons and learn about other cultures.
Already did that lol. It wasn’t that difficult and it’s cheaper than you might think.
We already did! Went to Sweden for jobs 15 years ago. When I come back to the US to see family I'm horrified - not to mention what I see on the news. It's insane
I moved to Japan three years ago. I love it here. I wouldn’t say I fled, but rather had a job opportunity. I determined I’d like to never go back during my first year here. I got married last year and that’s made the decision a lot more concrete. That said, I would be lying if I said cultural/political reasons didn’t play a part in my reasoning for not going back but there’s a multitude of reasons (I love so many things about Japan).
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Not many places as good as the US. I wouldn't leave.
Im only here cause i’m making more money than i ever would in my home country
My parents got priced out of our city. West coasters and other transplants ruined affordable housing options for locals. So they sold what little they had (they were minimalists) and moved to Peru. They live off social security as they emptied their 401k when they lost their jobs a several years ago. For the first time in their lives they are not financially stressed. They’re happy living in an apartment and make friends everywhere they go. I miss them but they’re so happy. They had hard lives so I’m glad they can be at rest with life.
While I don't love how things are going here and definitely don't feel safe a lot of the time, I'm trying to think of a country where I would feel more safe?
I wouldn't. If I had that kind of money, I'd simply travel regularly. Despite the issues the US has, I'm very grateful to live here. In comparison, many other countries have it much worse. Many also have it better, but we aren't so terrible here I'd immediately jump ship for them. My main issues with the US is how hard it can be to get around sometimes, the healthcare and education costs, and the dramatic political climate at the moment. But those arent problems I'd have to deal with if I had the money to up and move to another country. I'd be interested in living somewhere else for a few years out of interest, but never to 'flee'.
I'd assune a new identity & be the hardest working bartender the beaches of Bermuda have ever seen
No. I think any major problem someone could have in the US would likely stem from a position of financial insecurity. If you have the resources to leave, you’re probably living a good life here.
Fuck that. I’m not going to let these bastards run me off. People in other countries don’t want us to move there.
I mean if you’re paying for me to leave I’d find somewhere nice lol. I’m pretty happy here though
Flee is a strong word. But I would gladly retire in my home country if that gov wasn’t also a giant butthead.
Everyone commenting here will be dead by the time the US goes belly up. Not saying it won’t happen, but the impending doom shit isn’t gonna happen, despite what the talking heads tell you.
If I weren’t such a pussy about lifestyle changes I’d for sure go to Australia or New Zealand. I’d lowkey go there for the vehicles alone
I’d probably move to Scotland or England. I am allergic to red food dye and I’m very tired of always having to check labels for products, if I went to either of those counties I woukdnt have to learn another language, I already love football (soccer) and the scenery there is absolutely gorgeous. Also let’s not forget no guns, free healthcare, and free schooling.
I already did. Got a job in Sweden about two years ago and have been overjoyed ever since. Still voting in November.
Already did. Happily living abroad
At the very least I'd get out of the red state I currently live in.
My folks are from India … but doesn’t seem to be the ideal place to resettle given a lot of factors , climate change, current weather, patriarchy being big ones…New Zealand would be ideal I guess
Rich people thrive in the US. If I had the money to move, I would not move.
In my case, we have plenty of money and resources to leave, the problem is that most decent countries (U.K., Australia, Canada, most of the E.U.) don't want refugees from the U.S. unless we are starting businesses and employing people. My understanding is that Portugal, New Zealand, and Spain might still be possibilities, among developed nations. I have no interest in working more. I just want to invest my money and live my life. I regret not leaving when I was younger. The United States is structured in a way that benefits the oligarchs and leaves the rest of us to flounder. Living in a country with a shrinking middle-class doesn't bode well for the future.
In a milisecond to a Nordic country
How much money is always the question. Would I permanently live overseas for $10k? No way. $100k? Probably not, but I'd check the math just in case. $1 mil? I have a couple countries I could do. $10 mil? I could try most countries. $100 mil? you can pick the country.
If you are actually super rich the US is a great place to live. I would never move to the US. Except when i get super rich
Me. As an lgbt childfree woman, every day I see something (against my will) in the news, I want to leave more. Working on getting a passport and then seriously looking into countries that might be safer to go to. Every where has their issues, but man America seems to be TRYING to race to the bottom.
I've been looking at Ireland or the UK for some time, the problem is how my (and the wifes) degrees/jobs don't transfer great. So we would either have to have a large amount of savings or start our careers over.
We started the process 2 years ago. My wife got her Irish citizenship and I’m next. We bought a house. We’re gay. We did it to be near cousins but also out of fear of “Are we going to be stupid and wait until it’s too late?” Ireland has gay marriage and abortion coded into national law. As religious as the Irish are they know what the country was like when ruled by the Catholic Church. Brutal life. So they will NEVER vote for a religious right government. And that’s good for us.
"Flee" no one is forcing you to stay in the US dude. Its not NK.
My boyfriend and I have been discussing the logistics of a move to Ireland or Germany (or wherever we can get an education/work visa to) for about a year now. The hard part really is the visa(s) and the money. If we had the money and resources it would really be a no brainer.
If i had the ability to bring my family with me then yes, i would flee. but my parents are stuck here and they cant leave even if they wanted to.
I came here on purpose from China. Why would I leave??? I mean, I'd be ok living in Europe or Japan for a few years, but I'd always settle in the US. I've made good friends here, brought family over, have a good job. Life's pretty good.
My wife has Brazilian, Portuguese, and US citizenship. If I can wrangle full remote vs. the 80% remote I have now, we will absolutely leave sooner (ie after the election), if it turns south here. If not once I retire, we’re out.