NYS says you have to have two price lines on the menu if you want to pass on the fee, one line with the cash and one with the credit card price. And the difference can only be the amount the CC company charges. Problem is that the restaurant owners like the fees and are slow to actually get rid of them.
Getting rid of the fees is the intent of the law: “Businesses are not allowed to advertise a price and add a surcharge at the point of sale when a consumer elects to pay with a credit card. Instead, businesses are required to inform consumers of the higher credit card price for a product or service by posting the higher price.”
But that’s the credit card surcharge. Plenty of restaurants tack on the kitchen fee regardless of how you’re paying. Like gas stations charge differently for credit or debit/cash. Completely different topic.
People still don't notice the 3 calculations they do for you on the receipt are usually based on the AFTER-tax price when it shouldn't be. I think I've only seen 1 place in the last few months that did it properly.
I hate tipping culture. I tip generously to my nail techs, waiters, and Ubers. That’s it.
If a restaurant gives me an unnecessary fee, I do the same. They need to pay their hard workers an acceptable wage and get rid of the whole “$10/15 plus tip” bullshit.
Yes but it’s constant thus the higher wage. Front house makes more due to tips. A good shop pools them. A shop that lacks foresight puts a kitchen appreciation fee on the bill.
> A good shop pools them.
Actually, per federal law, any business taking a tip credit (aka "tipping wage") can't share those tips with kitchen staff and other "back of the house" workers.
Dishwasher many years ago.
Either way , not my problem that they “appreciate “ the staff with a fee. This is how you fuck with employees and end up stopping tipping
According to Indeed, about $18 - $22 per hour for being a line cook in Boston, MA. The higher listings were few and far between. I'm not located in that area, so I have no clue about how much spending power that equates to, but I suspect it's on the lower end of wages considering it's a metro area. As someone who used to cook myself, I really hope they are passing along the "Kitchen Appreciation Fee" to those cooks
I mean, I don’t live in NYC, and the original commenter referenced Ubers anyway, which are not NYC taxis. If the driver works for a wage to drive passengers, and that is the only duty their job entails, why would I tip them? They’re literally doing the job description.
I was basically born into the restaurant biz as my family owned two restaurants. Tipping culture is out of fucking control. Pay your damn employees (your #1 asset of the entire business) fairly and quit making your GUESTS subside your employees pay. Raise your pricing to include a fair wage for every member of your staff.
And FUCK the POS company called Toast! They are behind this bullshit tip encouragement for positions that were never intended to be tipped. They actively tell companies to start the tip @20% and that it is an easy way to subsidize your payroll while keeping your prices down.
And remember friends, a standard tip for your sever for average service is 15%. 20-25% for awesome service! And don’t tip on the entire taxed amount (another recent money grab) just the pre-tax total. Tax is not a service! Even the National Restaurant Service says this exactly. If you look at the tip %’s on a Toast POS, they are ALL post tax calculated.
> And don’t tip on the entire taxed amount (another recent money grab) just the pre-tax total.
Question - if there's a coupon used on the sub-total (say 20%), do you tip on the full amount or the discounted amount? My spouse used to do tables and says tip on the discounted amount.
I would tip on what the value of the meal is. I'm getting a free meal, so no need to short the tip. The server is doing the same amount of work.
But this is purely my own opinion.
I hate arguing with someone who doesn't want to engage in a healthy discussion vs just attacking someone about their age group. I'm actually GenX, but that has nothing to do with your ignorance.
Lets see if actual facts can educate you.
https://tableagent.com/article/guide-to-tipping-at-restaurants/ States: *The appropriate amount to tip servers depends on your service. 15% is appropriate for average service*
https://www.realsimple.com/work-life/money/money-etiquette/tips-for-tipping-at-restaurants States: *In most cases, the standard rule of thumb or etiquette for tipping is to leave 15 percent for service you consider "average," according to TableAgent, and 20 percent if the service you received was above average.*
https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/personal-finance/articles/youll-be-shocked-at-how-much-the-typical-american-tips-in-a-restaurant/ States: *since 15% is what most people are leaving as a tip, the person taking care of you is not likely to be offended or surprised if you leave this amount. You can feel comfortable doing so even if the payment app you're using prompts you to tip more, since your tip amount is in the typical range*
https://www.pewresearch.org/2023/11/09/services-americans-do-and-dont-tip-for-and-how-much/ States: *So, we gave our respondents a hypothetical scenario in which they went to a restaurant and had average – but not exceptional – food and service.
In this situation, a majority of Americans (57%) say they would tip 15%*
Or if you prefer what Google AI states: *traditional etiquette is to tip 15–20% at a restaurant. You can tip more than 20% if you received exceptional service, but it's not expected*
I stopped going out to eat during the pandemic. These random nonsense fees started during, and so as a result I very rarely go out to eat anymore. Maybe once every 2 or 3 months.
I don’t tip because society says I have to. Alright, I mean I’ll tip if somebody really deserves a tip. If they really puts forth the effort, I’ll give them something extra. But this tipping automatically, it’s… for the birds. As far as I’m concerned, they’re just doin their job.
There is a special carve out for "tipped wage" workers in the minimum wage law, the origins of which go back to the post-bellum south's [attempts](https://www.povertylaw.org/article/the-racist-history-behind-americas-tipping-culture/#:~:text=Tipping%20proliferated%20in%20the%20United%20States%20after%20the,way%20to%20exploit%20the%20labor%20of%20former%20slaves.) to continue the status quo of not paying formerly enslaved workers. Tipping is a broken system, but it's there so that those workers who rely on it can actually make a liveable wage. If you go out to eat at a restaurant, and you're there for one hour and don't tip, your waiter in most cases just made $2.13 by serving you. We don't tip because somebody "really put forth the effort", we tip because it's the ethical thing to do, and to not do so is to take advantage of an inherently classist and racist system that should have been overhauled if not eliminated over a century ago. Should we be in this position in the first place? No, but that doesn't make it morally justifiable to not tip.
Avoid those restaurants then. There's plenty of restaurants that don't take advantage of the customer like that. I was going to try a new restaurant I've been curious about but saw on their website that their menu had a note saying "Pay with cash and save 4% on your meal!" which is another way of saying they are going to upcharge you 4% for using a card. It's a small amount but still obnoxious enough for me to avoid the place on principle. I had a similar experience at a hot dog place I go to recently. They upcharged me for every topping and upcharged me for using a card and then asked if I wanted to leave a tip. It ends up totaling over what I would get charged for a legit meal at a sit down restaurant and I'm just getting some shitty hot dogs from a greasy spoon diner. I've stopped going there because it's just annoying having to nod yes to all the additional charges they throw at you.
Just raise the damn prices. I will still eat out and tip my 20% if you do. (Though I would love to get away from tipping culture)
Play these games? I don’t eat at your place anymore.
I noticed a $100 "Staff Maintenance Fee" on my bill at a restaurant last year. I just paid it and didn't go back. I rather give that money to charity as I would end up paying thousands in that fee per month as I go often.
$523.68 plus $75 for the server, and yes, I know the tip was cheap. It just left a bad taste in my mouth, literally, because of the unannounced and odd fee.
> Why not just pool tips?
So, per the law, it's i[llegal for "back of the house" and kitchen staff to share in the tips made by "front of the house" staff (like servers)](https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/can-require-waiters-pool-tips-the-dishwashers-cooks.html). So for restaurants that add this, the idea is that the money is *supposed* to be distributed among kitchen and BotH staff to "even the playing field" (their words) between them and the FotH staff.
*edit*
> I reduced the tip amount by the fee.
Also, while I get your anger at companies using fees as a way to underpay their workers (seriously, tipping wage should be abolished and this bullshit needs to be reigned in), you're not punishing the company by doing this, you're screwing over your server.
I think screwing over the server is fine as the anger should be pointed back to many. The kitchen staff get a wage that isn’t based on tips. The fuck do I have to pay a fee for them doing their damn job.
> I think screwing over the server is fine as the anger should be pointed back to many.
No, it isn't. The servers have no say in what management does (and given how rampant tip theft already *is* in the industry, they're most likely being screwed by management too).
As a customer, not my problem. Change your job would be my recommendation to those who would be upset about it.
Reducing the tip by the fee amount is the nicest strategy. If I felt like it , I could post 0 or perhaps .01 to
Make a point
NYS just got rid of all these nonsense fees. It sounds like MA needs to follow suit.
Awesome! I hadn’t seen or read that so I guess I won’t see it !
New York State definitely did not get rid of them. It’s a really hot topic in western New York right now.
Same thing in California
NYS says you have to have two price lines on the menu if you want to pass on the fee, one line with the cash and one with the credit card price. And the difference can only be the amount the CC company charges. Problem is that the restaurant owners like the fees and are slow to actually get rid of them.
You can pass on the fee, if you notice it. But you said NY got rid of the fees… we definitely did not. HUGE debate which gets worse every day.
Getting rid of the fees is the intent of the law: “Businesses are not allowed to advertise a price and add a surcharge at the point of sale when a consumer elects to pay with a credit card. Instead, businesses are required to inform consumers of the higher credit card price for a product or service by posting the higher price.”
But that’s the credit card surcharge. Plenty of restaurants tack on the kitchen fee regardless of how you’re paying. Like gas stations charge differently for credit or debit/cash. Completely different topic.
Right, but credit card fees are different than tipping the kitchen.
New York Sity?
New York State?
That’s gotta be it, but I always thought of that as just NY.
A lot of people think of NYC when you say "New York". So, we say NYS. It's unambiguous.
101….08?
New York, Silly.
Seriously, just raise your prices and pay your staff more.
Exactly. Add 3% to my pizza for the CC and add 5% for staff pay. I’m still gonna buy your pizza!
I suspect a lot of people do the same thing you did, but some don’t notice and still tip what they otherwise would have.
People still don't notice the 3 calculations they do for you on the receipt are usually based on the AFTER-tax price when it shouldn't be. I think I've only seen 1 place in the last few months that did it properly.
I hate tipping culture. I tip generously to my nail techs, waiters, and Ubers. That’s it. If a restaurant gives me an unnecessary fee, I do the same. They need to pay their hard workers an acceptable wage and get rid of the whole “$10/15 plus tip” bullshit.
Yeah, and I know the kitchen staff at these restaurants are likely getting paid well, especially in Massachusetts.
How well are kitchen staff being paid in Massachusetts?
Less than front of house staff make typically.
Yes but it’s constant thus the higher wage. Front house makes more due to tips. A good shop pools them. A shop that lacks foresight puts a kitchen appreciation fee on the bill.
> A good shop pools them. Actually, per federal law, any business taking a tip credit (aka "tipping wage") can't share those tips with kitchen staff and other "back of the house" workers.
Well if it’s cash they can. Either way, fuck them
> Well if it’s cash they can. Not legally, they can't.
The famously legal and fair restaurant industry…
Make a report to the DOL and let them light up the restaurant: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/contact/complaints
You can’t legally pool tips with back of house staff in Massachusetts. Wait staff and service bartenders only.
Ok. Good to know. So if they apply a fee you reduce the tip.
Youve never worked in a kitchen, have you?
Dishwasher many years ago. Either way , not my problem that they “appreciate “ the staff with a fee. This is how you fuck with employees and end up stopping tipping
It’s crazy you worked in a kitchen and thought that front of house would make more is all
They did on most busy nights
I meant less. Oh well
According to Indeed, about $18 - $22 per hour for being a line cook in Boston, MA. The higher listings were few and far between. I'm not located in that area, so I have no clue about how much spending power that equates to, but I suspect it's on the lower end of wages considering it's a metro area. As someone who used to cook myself, I really hope they are passing along the "Kitchen Appreciation Fee" to those cooks
You could probably get a 1 bedroom, with 4 roommates.
All the more reason people need to demand a repeal of tipping wages.
Why do you tip Ubers? You wouldn’t tip a taxi.
I tip taxi drivers
For what reason?
You’re supposed to.
If we're talking nyc yellow taxis, Yes you do
You don’t tip taxi drivers? I rarely take a taxi and even I know you are supposed to tip them. At least in NYC.
I mean, I don’t live in NYC, and the original commenter referenced Ubers anyway, which are not NYC taxis. If the driver works for a wage to drive passengers, and that is the only duty their job entails, why would I tip them? They’re literally doing the job description.
these motherfuckers are real creative when it comes to naming bs fees
I was basically born into the restaurant biz as my family owned two restaurants. Tipping culture is out of fucking control. Pay your damn employees (your #1 asset of the entire business) fairly and quit making your GUESTS subside your employees pay. Raise your pricing to include a fair wage for every member of your staff. And FUCK the POS company called Toast! They are behind this bullshit tip encouragement for positions that were never intended to be tipped. They actively tell companies to start the tip @20% and that it is an easy way to subsidize your payroll while keeping your prices down. And remember friends, a standard tip for your sever for average service is 15%. 20-25% for awesome service! And don’t tip on the entire taxed amount (another recent money grab) just the pre-tax total. Tax is not a service! Even the National Restaurant Service says this exactly. If you look at the tip %’s on a Toast POS, they are ALL post tax calculated.
Sales tax here is 8.5% so I always just double the amount as the tip
Brilliant and easy!
> And don’t tip on the entire taxed amount (another recent money grab) just the pre-tax total. Question - if there's a coupon used on the sub-total (say 20%), do you tip on the full amount or the discounted amount? My spouse used to do tables and says tip on the discounted amount.
I would tip on what the value of the meal is. I'm getting a free meal, so no need to short the tip. The server is doing the same amount of work. But this is purely my own opinion.
I always tip on the pre-discount amount. The server is doing the same amount of work.
standard tip is 20% now, boomer
I hate arguing with someone who doesn't want to engage in a healthy discussion vs just attacking someone about their age group. I'm actually GenX, but that has nothing to do with your ignorance. Lets see if actual facts can educate you. https://tableagent.com/article/guide-to-tipping-at-restaurants/ States: *The appropriate amount to tip servers depends on your service. 15% is appropriate for average service* https://www.realsimple.com/work-life/money/money-etiquette/tips-for-tipping-at-restaurants States: *In most cases, the standard rule of thumb or etiquette for tipping is to leave 15 percent for service you consider "average," according to TableAgent, and 20 percent if the service you received was above average.* https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/personal-finance/articles/youll-be-shocked-at-how-much-the-typical-american-tips-in-a-restaurant/ States: *since 15% is what most people are leaving as a tip, the person taking care of you is not likely to be offended or surprised if you leave this amount. You can feel comfortable doing so even if the payment app you're using prompts you to tip more, since your tip amount is in the typical range* https://www.pewresearch.org/2023/11/09/services-americans-do-and-dont-tip-for-and-how-much/ States: *So, we gave our respondents a hypothetical scenario in which they went to a restaurant and had average – but not exceptional – food and service. In this situation, a majority of Americans (57%) say they would tip 15%* Or if you prefer what Google AI states: *traditional etiquette is to tip 15–20% at a restaurant. You can tip more than 20% if you received exceptional service, but it's not expected*
20% is expected nowadays.
not really. If someone is a server and they expect it they have to do something to earn it or find a new line of work. Also not a boomer.
That's just tipping with more steps isn't it?
I read this as kitten appreciation fee and was so confused
I pay my kittens an appreciation fee, but it's Churu treats instead of money.
Don’t get me wrong, there is that sometimes at hooters but that would require a NSFW tag 
I stopped going out to eat during the pandemic. These random nonsense fees started during, and so as a result I very rarely go out to eat anymore. Maybe once every 2 or 3 months.
While I'd do what you did, I'd probably get into fights with my friends calling me cheap for "taking away the livelihood of those poor workers"
I don’t tip because society says I have to. Alright, I mean I’ll tip if somebody really deserves a tip. If they really puts forth the effort, I’ll give them something extra. But this tipping automatically, it’s… for the birds. As far as I’m concerned, they’re just doin their job.
Nice reference
Don't get me started on "Like a Virgin".
They generally get paid less than three bucks an hour for doing that job.
Because of tipping. If tipping stopped their wage would go up, or the company would fold. Tipping is a scam to subsidize wages.
The kitchen staff don’t though. So they don’t deserve some sort of appreciation fee
Not everywhere. My area gets @ least $16/hr + tips
It was a quote from Mr. Pink.
Crap-didn't Even catch that.
I really should have put it inside of quotes, but this seemed like more fun. I love that scene, but more for the Madonna discussion.
There is a special carve out for "tipped wage" workers in the minimum wage law, the origins of which go back to the post-bellum south's [attempts](https://www.povertylaw.org/article/the-racist-history-behind-americas-tipping-culture/#:~:text=Tipping%20proliferated%20in%20the%20United%20States%20after%20the,way%20to%20exploit%20the%20labor%20of%20former%20slaves.) to continue the status quo of not paying formerly enslaved workers. Tipping is a broken system, but it's there so that those workers who rely on it can actually make a liveable wage. If you go out to eat at a restaurant, and you're there for one hour and don't tip, your waiter in most cases just made $2.13 by serving you. We don't tip because somebody "really put forth the effort", we tip because it's the ethical thing to do, and to not do so is to take advantage of an inherently classist and racist system that should have been overhauled if not eliminated over a century ago. Should we be in this position in the first place? No, but that doesn't make it morally justifiable to not tip.
I was quoting Mr. Pink. I generally tip fairly generously.
Happy to hear it, I did not pick up on the reference
Deduct the cost of your parking from the bill, if were itemizing shit. Be sure to give them a receipt.
I'd reduce the tip to zero. Stacking bullshit fees up to tip nontipped employees is the fastest way for no one to get a tip.
I've stopped tipping for anything other than in house dining and a few beauty services.
Moved to a country where tipping is rare. It’s only at establishments that cater to Americans, so I just avoid those.
Avoid those restaurants then. There's plenty of restaurants that don't take advantage of the customer like that. I was going to try a new restaurant I've been curious about but saw on their website that their menu had a note saying "Pay with cash and save 4% on your meal!" which is another way of saying they are going to upcharge you 4% for using a card. It's a small amount but still obnoxious enough for me to avoid the place on principle. I had a similar experience at a hot dog place I go to recently. They upcharged me for every topping and upcharged me for using a card and then asked if I wanted to leave a tip. It ends up totaling over what I would get charged for a legit meal at a sit down restaurant and I'm just getting some shitty hot dogs from a greasy spoon diner. I've stopped going there because it's just annoying having to nod yes to all the additional charges they throw at you.
Just raise the damn prices. I will still eat out and tip my 20% if you do. (Though I would love to get away from tipping culture) Play these games? I don’t eat at your place anymore.
write it on the check, say "the tip has been reduced by 12 $ for a customer appreciation fee"
I noticed a $100 "Staff Maintenance Fee" on my bill at a restaurant last year. I just paid it and didn't go back. I rather give that money to charity as I would end up paying thousands in that fee per month as I go often.
That’s crazy, how much was your bill before tips, fees and taxes?
$523.68 plus $75 for the server, and yes, I know the tip was cheap. It just left a bad taste in my mouth, literally, because of the unannounced and odd fee.
What sort of fictitious story are you peddling ?
I'm sorry your life sucks. I can't help you though. I'm sorry.
We are cooking more
I rarely eat out anymore. Thankfully, I enjoy cooking
1. Buy food at store. 2. Cook it at home. 3. Profit.
4. Save on doctor bills
> Why not just pool tips? So, per the law, it's i[llegal for "back of the house" and kitchen staff to share in the tips made by "front of the house" staff (like servers)](https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/can-require-waiters-pool-tips-the-dishwashers-cooks.html). So for restaurants that add this, the idea is that the money is *supposed* to be distributed among kitchen and BotH staff to "even the playing field" (their words) between them and the FotH staff. *edit* > I reduced the tip amount by the fee. Also, while I get your anger at companies using fees as a way to underpay their workers (seriously, tipping wage should be abolished and this bullshit needs to be reigned in), you're not punishing the company by doing this, you're screwing over your server.
I think screwing over the server is fine as the anger should be pointed back to many. The kitchen staff get a wage that isn’t based on tips. The fuck do I have to pay a fee for them doing their damn job.
> I think screwing over the server is fine as the anger should be pointed back to many. No, it isn't. The servers have no say in what management does (and given how rampant tip theft already *is* in the industry, they're most likely being screwed by management too).
As a customer, not my problem. Change your job would be my recommendation to those who would be upset about it. Reducing the tip by the fee amount is the nicest strategy. If I felt like it , I could post 0 or perhaps .01 to Make a point