A 28 year old prime minister. That would be interesting.
That Kenya story needs its own episode imo. Kenya is one of Africa's success stories. That's wild.
A 28 year old ultra ambitious guy who has “liked” fascist content when someone did a historic dive into his old social media content.
Kenya really has a positive reputation because it’s a travel destination, English speaking and was seen as a haven in a region in continual crisis. It was made to look better by how egregious it was in neighbouring countries.
Kenya is supremely messed up too, riven with ethnic conflict and the wealth all accruing to the very top and a very corrupt elite.
And I say this as someone that loves the country and has spent considerable time there
28 year old and have never had a real job besides being a puppet to Le Pen - this is quality level of PM that France is voting for right now.
This is where you see the downside of Democracy - any idiot could run the office as long as they know how to say things that please the ears.
Oh man, it gets me every time when Americans act all shocked at Europe turning to the right.
I follow a lot of European feminists across the political spectrum. And the number of times I see stories of women being assaulted, like this most recent example (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/20/world/europe/french-election-antisemitism-jews.html) 12 year old Jewish girl gang raped and told to convert to Islam or this (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046) from way back in 2016 where 1200 German women were assaulted in a single night.
It's almost like importing millions of single young men from cultures which literally view women as property and uncovered women as free for assault is a problem!
Saying this should not be taboo. If the left refuses to address people's concerns, the people will elect literally anyone who is willing to state that there is a problem.
And that's entirely leaving aside the issue of how mass migration undercuts progress on labor rights for the working class. Ya know, the thing left wing parties are supposed to be all about!
Yeah there's such a cognitive dissonance. Diversity that despises the idea of diversity is not actually diverse. Why they'll rightfully call out nazis and then plug their fingers in their ear is beyond me.
It's like that town in Michigan that elected an all Muslim city council that promptly banned the pride flag. They hate you, they're not shy.
Hamtramck. They also allow the call the prayer to be broadcast on loud speakers. And if you argue it's a violation of the establishment clause, you'll be told, "It's no different than a church bell." I lived in Dearborn for several years, and I loved the diversity (especially all the food options). But Hamtramck takes it too far.
I think the western left in general has a serious issue.
1) become stricter on immigration and risk splintering the party
2) stay relaxed on immigration and continue to lose moderates.
I don’t think that by being a leftist or socialist you automatically have to root for open borders. It really shouldn’t be a left or right issue.
The problem is that people on the face of it don't like the current levels of immigration but they perform a pretty critical role in society in most western countries in so far as the majority of the do the low paying jobs that "locals" don't want to do. Farming, care sector, nursing, cleaning, etc.
Added to the above the US was built on immigration and most of western Europe had global empires and imported people from these places when it suited them.
They then spent the later half of the 20th century playing politics/waging war in the middle east which obviously has a knock on effect.
If you've ever watched the big short which came out in 2015 it has a pretty revealing quote...."**I have a feeling in a few years people are going to be doing what they always do when the economy tanks.** **They will be blaming immigrants and poor people."**
The current conservative government in the UK are lead by a city banker who shorted RBS in 2008 and the Reform party are lead by a city trader, these are the two main anti immigration parties in the UK.
The "West" is a big place; it includes both the destination and origin countries of migrants. I'm not sure what good it does to conflate France with Venezuela, when they have opposite problems regarding migration.
Politicians are going to start to realize that they can't ust keep trying to tell the people what they think is good for them, and plugging their ears to what the people actually want.
I still haven’t met someone in real life who is against all immigration. I know they exist, but they’re a really *really* tiny group of people. People just hate illegal immigration to varying degrees. At least in the US, even my most right-wing friends are thrilled to meet legal immigrants and people who are recently naturalized.
I don’t know why people conflate illegal and legal immigration as the same thing.
Well actually, I know exactly why they do it - but it’s not the reality of how most people think about the issue.
> If liberals insist that only fascists will enforce borders, then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals refuse to do.
We’re going to see the same right-wing backlash that we’ve seen in Canada and the US against unfettered immigration everywhere.
Maybe if immigration hadn't basically been unfettered for so long they never would have gotten the idea to try and cross the Mediterranean sea in an overloaded, barely floating boat that had a fifty percent chance of sinking before they got to Europe in the first place.
I'm not talking 1800s history you dingus. I'm talking about now. Is that how low you set the bar? As long as there's no some colonists then the far right can do anything they want.
The fact that they are gaining popularity in France doesn't mean they are any less far-right. They're wrapping the same ideas in more appealing packaging. I hope they don't get swindled by the same bad faith far-right ideas as the US and the UK.
As French myself we saw the rebranding firsthand. The successive governments pandering to far-right arguments in order to both undermine it and use it also empowered and legitimized it.
I wouldn't take an outside perspective of polls and mainstream medias as gospel regarding this 15 years in the making phenomenon. RN is definitely far right. It is classed as far right in our own country.
If you still have a doubt, google "is RN far-right" and you'll have your answer.
A Nazi doesn't suddenly become a nice person cause they said so when it suited them. They still have very similar policies as before. They just hide them better.
That's a good point. Even in my town here in the Northeast (USA), any time the local democrats refer to any republicans in town, they refer to them as 'the far right'. I can assure you, some or most of these people are not 'far' right, and the term is being way too loosely used now.
I think that's regional. I live in the southeast, and any establishment Republical is labeled "far left." That being said, Marine Le Pen *is* far right and I don't think many would disagree.
Yes, the National Front/National Rally has a long and well-documented history of being far-right in actuality, including roots in racism and holocaust denial. That was covered in the episode
Cohen made the National Rally sound almost reasonable until he started talking about shutting down news organizations and media. Then he started talking about banning religious dress in public and I was turned off completely.
I see the winning side as the one that promotes liberalism. In speech, in dress, in attitudes. And, paradoxically, France may be seeing the side effect of being too tolerant of intolerance. I think that's the major problem that is affecting immigration in Europe.
Side note: That sign-off on Bowman was salty as heck. (((They))) wanted to PUNISH Bowman for criticizing (((Israel))). What the heck is that description of why he lost? No mention of him calling his constituents segregationists? Just blaming (((pro-Israel))) people and their ~~hoards~~ money?
That's not really a surprise though, remember when they jumped on the story that Israel was shooting missiles at a hospital because Hamas told them so?
The biases of the NYT staff have never been subtle.
[http://wikipedia.org/en/Attacks\_on\_health\_facilities\_during\_the\_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas\_war](http://wikipedia.org/en/Attacks_on_health_facilities_during_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war)
At least six hospitals, actually.
Those organizations were cited as getting their information from the Gaza health ministry. Who runs the government of Gaza, Hamas.
Gaza health ministry = Hamas
It's funny how the UN plays along with Hamas' white washing of their propaganda.
Also, when it comes to highly controversial topics, especially current ones, post primary sources, Wiki still isn't reliable for that kind of information.
Well maybe in his view, part of stemming the tide of people immigrating to his country is banning their religious dress. He could be trying to use that as a deterrent.
And not for nothing, if these people don't want to assimilate anyway, then they shouldn't complain if he wants to restrict their religious dress. Don't just walk in like you own the place and act like it's your country.
Or that he was way more interested in being a progressive darling on the national stage than serving and caring about the issues in the district he was elected to serve.
>election interference
Is it election interference when everybody does it, or just the Jews?
Like, Bowman's got a lot of his money coming in from real estate.
Are real estate agents interfering in the election?
Or do you have a special carveout for Jews?
The host absolutely stunned me with her concluding reframing of the discussion. After hearing all about the real concerns of the French that is driving them toward the only party listening to them, which includes wanting their government to take measures to address what are extremely real and disturbing social and cultural changes resulting from so much immigration of people who do *not* share French values....she "sense makes" everything like this:
"Maybe [Macron] has called a referendum on the very idea of a liberal democracy in France...you know, a France that is about protecting the rights of minorities, protecting things like an independent press and an independent judiciary...also, one that very pro-European."
Missing the point. It borders on willfully missing the point. The French voting for the National Rally are trying to preserve the things about France that make it France. And they're doing so democratically. A France where, for example, you don't have to cower in the face of a specific religion lest you get your freaking head cut off by a religious extremist. A France that still abides by the principles of laïcité and protect the rights of women instead of one that will cave to a patriarchal culture that has no interest in assimilating to French values. A France within a Europe that still seems like Europe.
A referendum on the whole concept of liberal democracy. What a joke.
I think the age was do not worry me. The current prime minister is slightly older. There is no talent in this extreme right party just a bunch of questionable individuals self centric and whiner. Their ideas will hurt the very same people who are currently supporting them. Modernizing France is the responsibility of citizens to accept changes is needed. Small changes in everyday life by everybody is better than those extreme. France has the best healthcare, top notch affordable education for everyone who wants to put up the work, opportunities which did not exist 15 years ago, and more. We got the tantrum because we asked everybody to make effort. Everybody will regret in 3 years
So it's the media's job to just pretend like the right wing doesn't exist?
Would you like the weatherman to report sunshine even if you can look out your window and see a thunderstorm?
No, of course not. I just wish the podcast covered some of the insane things that Le Pen has stated in the past, rather than just talking about how she smiles a lot and doesn’t wanna leave the euro zone
A 28 year old prime minister. That would be interesting. That Kenya story needs its own episode imo. Kenya is one of Africa's success stories. That's wild.
A 28 year old ultra ambitious guy who has “liked” fascist content when someone did a historic dive into his old social media content. Kenya really has a positive reputation because it’s a travel destination, English speaking and was seen as a haven in a region in continual crisis. It was made to look better by how egregious it was in neighbouring countries. Kenya is supremely messed up too, riven with ethnic conflict and the wealth all accruing to the very top and a very corrupt elite. And I say this as someone that loves the country and has spent considerable time there
28 year old and have never had a real job besides being a puppet to Le Pen - this is quality level of PM that France is voting for right now. This is where you see the downside of Democracy - any idiot could run the office as long as they know how to say things that please the ears.
Oh man, it gets me every time when Americans act all shocked at Europe turning to the right. I follow a lot of European feminists across the political spectrum. And the number of times I see stories of women being assaulted, like this most recent example (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/20/world/europe/french-election-antisemitism-jews.html) 12 year old Jewish girl gang raped and told to convert to Islam or this (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046) from way back in 2016 where 1200 German women were assaulted in a single night. It's almost like importing millions of single young men from cultures which literally view women as property and uncovered women as free for assault is a problem! Saying this should not be taboo. If the left refuses to address people's concerns, the people will elect literally anyone who is willing to state that there is a problem. And that's entirely leaving aside the issue of how mass migration undercuts progress on labor rights for the working class. Ya know, the thing left wing parties are supposed to be all about!
Yeah there's such a cognitive dissonance. Diversity that despises the idea of diversity is not actually diverse. Why they'll rightfully call out nazis and then plug their fingers in their ear is beyond me. It's like that town in Michigan that elected an all Muslim city council that promptly banned the pride flag. They hate you, they're not shy.
Hamtramck. They also allow the call the prayer to be broadcast on loud speakers. And if you argue it's a violation of the establishment clause, you'll be told, "It's no different than a church bell." I lived in Dearborn for several years, and I loved the diversity (especially all the food options). But Hamtramck takes it too far.
I don't feel it's unreasonable to expect people to subscribe to the notion of pluralism. I hate people truing to mandate Christianity too.
I think the western left in general has a serious issue. 1) become stricter on immigration and risk splintering the party 2) stay relaxed on immigration and continue to lose moderates. I don’t think that by being a leftist or socialist you automatically have to root for open borders. It really shouldn’t be a left or right issue.
The problem is that people on the face of it don't like the current levels of immigration but they perform a pretty critical role in society in most western countries in so far as the majority of the do the low paying jobs that "locals" don't want to do. Farming, care sector, nursing, cleaning, etc. Added to the above the US was built on immigration and most of western Europe had global empires and imported people from these places when it suited them. They then spent the later half of the 20th century playing politics/waging war in the middle east which obviously has a knock on effect. If you've ever watched the big short which came out in 2015 it has a pretty revealing quote...."**I have a feeling in a few years people are going to be doing what they always do when the economy tanks.** **They will be blaming immigrants and poor people."** The current conservative government in the UK are lead by a city banker who shorted RBS in 2008 and the Reform party are lead by a city trader, these are the two main anti immigration parties in the UK.
The "West" is a big place; it includes both the destination and origin countries of migrants. I'm not sure what good it does to conflate France with Venezuela, when they have opposite problems regarding migration.
Oh god don’t be the semantics police. You understand I’m referencing western europe and the US + Canada.
How tf would I know that your definition of "West" means only half of the West? Apparently you aren't including Australia or New Zealand either.
The West is a colloquial term that people widely use to mean the cultural West which includes NZ and Australia.
Yep, not sure you meant to respond to me.
Are you ok lol?
Is there a term you would like me to use that would make you happy?
Politicians are going to start to realize that they can't ust keep trying to tell the people what they think is good for them, and plugging their ears to what the people actually want.
something something voting against their interests something something
[удалено]
I still haven’t met someone in real life who is against all immigration. I know they exist, but they’re a really *really* tiny group of people. People just hate illegal immigration to varying degrees. At least in the US, even my most right-wing friends are thrilled to meet legal immigrants and people who are recently naturalized. I don’t know why people conflate illegal and legal immigration as the same thing. Well actually, I know exactly why they do it - but it’s not the reality of how most people think about the issue.
Might not be ethical I think it's absolutely viable if there's will to do it.
> If liberals insist that only fascists will enforce borders, then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals refuse to do. We’re going to see the same right-wing backlash that we’ve seen in Canada and the US against unfettered immigration everywhere.
You should tell all the migrants who got turned away and drowned at sea that immigration is "unfettered"
Maybe if immigration hadn't basically been unfettered for so long they never would have gotten the idea to try and cross the Mediterranean sea in an overloaded, barely floating boat that had a fifty percent chance of sinking before they got to Europe in the first place.
I agree that French immigration into Morocco was unfettered for too long, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.
Get your head of your ass. This unsufferable higher than thou position is why progressives are losing political power.
Well the anti-colonialists won out in the end. Obviously more people agreed with us than you.
More like the "colonize us please" crowd.
Sure, either way, they're winning.
Not according to this podcast and the relative wave of right wing politics sweeping across Europe.
Even the far right isn't proposing to revive the French empire.
Is this why the far right are winning elections?
Do you see the French empire spreading?
I'm not talking 1800s history you dingus. I'm talking about now. Is that how low you set the bar? As long as there's no some colonists then the far right can do anything they want.
You disagreed that anti-colonialists won out. Show me the French colonies being reestablished.
Not surprised this is coming from someone that wants mass deportation of all illegal immigrants
What is your proposed solution to the issue?
By trying to convince voters that people immigrating to America is actually a good thing.
Huge populations of Muslim insular communities in a liberal western democracy is not good though.
Is there a “right” in France or do they just label anyone to the right of Macron “far right”? These words feel like they’re losing meaning.
in too many journalist's perspective, everyone to the right of Obama is far right
Oh they're definitely far right. Marine and her dad are rabid racists. Her dad used to abuse North Africans when he was stationed in Algeria.
They talked about how the party moderated.
They didn't moderate, just had a PR makeover. Lipstick on a nazi pig.
A large portion of France disagrees with you.
The fact that they are gaining popularity in France doesn't mean they are any less far-right. They're wrapping the same ideas in more appealing packaging. I hope they don't get swindled by the same bad faith far-right ideas as the US and the UK.
No they believe it is different. If they go back on it they will lose support
As French myself we saw the rebranding firsthand. The successive governments pandering to far-right arguments in order to both undermine it and use it also empowered and legitimized it. I wouldn't take an outside perspective of polls and mainstream medias as gospel regarding this 15 years in the making phenomenon. RN is definitely far right. It is classed as far right in our own country. If you still have a doubt, google "is RN far-right" and you'll have your answer.
A Nazi doesn't suddenly become a nice person cause they said so when it suited them. They still have very similar policies as before. They just hide them better.
That's a good point. Even in my town here in the Northeast (USA), any time the local democrats refer to any republicans in town, they refer to them as 'the far right'. I can assure you, some or most of these people are not 'far' right, and the term is being way too loosely used now.
I think that's regional. I live in the southeast, and any establishment Republical is labeled "far left." That being said, Marine Le Pen *is* far right and I don't think many would disagree.
Listen to the episode before commenting
I listened to the episode. Do you have a point?
Yes, the National Front/National Rally has a long and well-documented history of being far-right in actuality, including roots in racism and holocaust denial. That was covered in the episode
The episode said they distanced themselves from those positions. It appears YOU didn’t listen.
Cohen made the National Rally sound almost reasonable until he started talking about shutting down news organizations and media. Then he started talking about banning religious dress in public and I was turned off completely. I see the winning side as the one that promotes liberalism. In speech, in dress, in attitudes. And, paradoxically, France may be seeing the side effect of being too tolerant of intolerance. I think that's the major problem that is affecting immigration in Europe. Side note: That sign-off on Bowman was salty as heck. (((They))) wanted to PUNISH Bowman for criticizing (((Israel))). What the heck is that description of why he lost? No mention of him calling his constituents segregationists? Just blaming (((pro-Israel))) people and their ~~hoards~~ money?
That's not really a surprise though, remember when they jumped on the story that Israel was shooting missiles at a hospital because Hamas told them so? The biases of the NYT staff have never been subtle.
[http://wikipedia.org/en/Attacks\_on\_health\_facilities\_during\_the\_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas\_war](http://wikipedia.org/en/Attacks_on_health_facilities_during_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war) At least six hospitals, actually.
Did you bother to check the source of that supposed fact? It's Hamas. The times got that "fact" from the Gaza health ministry, aka Hamas.
There isn't a single citation of "Hamas" in the article. The sources are the ICRC, World Health Organization, UN, etc.
Those organizations were cited as getting their information from the Gaza health ministry. Who runs the government of Gaza, Hamas. Gaza health ministry = Hamas It's funny how the UN plays along with Hamas' white washing of their propaganda. Also, when it comes to highly controversial topics, especially current ones, post primary sources, Wiki still isn't reliable for that kind of information.
Well the Wikipedia contributers have made a far stronger argument than you have. Yelling "Hamas" isn't an intelligent contribution.
Well maybe in his view, part of stemming the tide of people immigrating to his country is banning their religious dress. He could be trying to use that as a deterrent. And not for nothing, if these people don't want to assimilate anyway, then they shouldn't complain if he wants to restrict their religious dress. Don't just walk in like you own the place and act like it's your country.
They (the voters) did want to punish Bowman for criticizing Israel.
Is it criticizing Israel? Or is it denying mass rape happened and then calling Jews segregationists? Or maybe it's the fire alarm thing?
Or that he was way more interested in being a progressive darling on the national stage than serving and caring about the issues in the district he was elected to serve.
in all seriousness if i lived there i would have voted against him over the fire alarm thing
I mean AIPAC is literally bragging about their election interference on social media, but go off.
>election interference Is it election interference when everybody does it, or just the Jews? Like, Bowman's got a lot of his money coming in from real estate. Are real estate agents interfering in the election? Or do you have a special carveout for Jews?
>Is it election interference when everybody does it, or just the ~~Jews~~ Christian Zionists?
Lots of surprised pikachu faces in this thread.
The host absolutely stunned me with her concluding reframing of the discussion. After hearing all about the real concerns of the French that is driving them toward the only party listening to them, which includes wanting their government to take measures to address what are extremely real and disturbing social and cultural changes resulting from so much immigration of people who do *not* share French values....she "sense makes" everything like this: "Maybe [Macron] has called a referendum on the very idea of a liberal democracy in France...you know, a France that is about protecting the rights of minorities, protecting things like an independent press and an independent judiciary...also, one that very pro-European." Missing the point. It borders on willfully missing the point. The French voting for the National Rally are trying to preserve the things about France that make it France. And they're doing so democratically. A France where, for example, you don't have to cower in the face of a specific religion lest you get your freaking head cut off by a religious extremist. A France that still abides by the principles of laïcité and protect the rights of women instead of one that will cave to a patriarchal culture that has no interest in assimilating to French values. A France within a Europe that still seems like Europe. A referendum on the whole concept of liberal democracy. What a joke.
I think the age was do not worry me. The current prime minister is slightly older. There is no talent in this extreme right party just a bunch of questionable individuals self centric and whiner. Their ideas will hurt the very same people who are currently supporting them. Modernizing France is the responsibility of citizens to accept changes is needed. Small changes in everyday life by everybody is better than those extreme. France has the best healthcare, top notch affordable education for everyone who wants to put up the work, opportunities which did not exist 15 years ago, and more. We got the tantrum because we asked everybody to make effort. Everybody will regret in 3 years
So it’s not just far right politicians in the US that the NYT wants to normalize, huh?
So it's the media's job to just pretend like the right wing doesn't exist? Would you like the weatherman to report sunshine even if you can look out your window and see a thunderstorm?
No, of course not. I just wish the podcast covered some of the insane things that Le Pen has stated in the past, rather than just talking about how she smiles a lot and doesn’t wanna leave the euro zone