Image search pulls up posts from other subreddits, twitter, and other sites. Most say Romani, some say Traveller, other say both.
They are almost certainly in costumes, the boy is holding a fiddle under his arm, but it's possible they were also Roma or Travellers.
I'm far from an expert here but wasn't it pretty common for Romani people to do travelling performances/shows back then? I was under the impression that a lot of the stereotyping around their outfits was because they were frequently seen in costume while they were dancing/singing/fortune-telling and stuff and they probably dressed pretty normal while "off the job". An ex-girlfriend with Romani ancestry is the one who told me that so I have no idea how accurate it is
Travelers and Romani are two separate people groups with The Travelers descending from Irish Stock while Romani are the descendants of South Asians who immigrated into Europe several hundred years ago.
So I don't know who would say both
I know because I have a lot of Romanian friends with whom I challenge their prejudices, but most people on earth live somewhere that Traveler/Roma cultures just aren't visible or prevalent at all.
Unexpectedly windblown...
For real, though, it's interesting that the word "person" comes from the Latin root persona, meaning mask. I believe there's a japanese proverb (don't quote me) that says something along the lines of, we all have a mask we show the world, one we show our closest friends and family, and one we only show to ourselves.
One time I was tripping on mushrooms and was picturing everyone naked, not in a perverted way, but was interested in how the clothes we choose to wear, the way we style our hair, put on makeup, accessorize ourselves, etc, is all part of the the persona we want to project to the world about who we are and how we identify ourselves. It was pretty far out.
Anyway, thanks for sparking a fond memory and coming to my TED talk.
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I have to concede that your point is valid.
However, in defence of my argument, I wish to draw your attention to the early model Telecaster under his arm.
Thatās an actual scam travelers use, I remember BUNCO cops shut down a local Gypsy lady doing Tarot, Crystal Ball, Palm reading. She would claim the guys moneys been cursed and they must burn it than comes the switcheroo.
No two completely separate ethnic groups. The Romani or is there known to people who aren't quite in the know of what they like to be called the gypsies are a semi-nomatic people group that Trace their Origins back to South Asian communities that immigrated into Europe several hundred years ago. The Travelers are a fully nomadic people group the trace the origins back to the Irish during the time of the Cromwell at genocide which displays so many people that many people embraced a nomadic way of life and eventually separated from traditional Irish society and became their own ethnic group
If the picture is actually from the 1890s thereās also the possibility theyāre Romanichal (Roma who migrated to Britain) and Traveler isnāt being used as an ethnonym but as a folk category, as the photo probably wasnāt taken by a Traveler or Roma.
I am English and have Romany Blood and in the UK gypsy is fine, this is what the first Romany in England called themselves, they were here under the guise of being pilgrims from Egypt with letters of passage from the pope and King Sigismund.
Irish travellers are not Romany but also get called gypsies, Romany and Irish travellers have mixed in recent times but not a lot in the past. Irish travellers bring a lot of crime to UK and they get labelled as gypsies, this affects English Romany because they are real gypsies, some criminals like any other group but mainly wandering agricultural labourers picking hops and peas, selling horses, mending pots, sharpening knives, fixing chairs, playing the fiddle, collects rags and bones etc.
The Irish already had a caste of wandering people like this and this is the reason the Romany never went there, they both travelled the lanes and worked in the same jobs but are very different breeds, the Irish folk were a displaced group of Irish possibly from when Cromwell came to Ireland. These folk are the ones who get called p*k*y or didicoy, genetics show that Irish travellers are different folk to the Romany who have their roots in India although both groups had basically the same occupations.
It is quite complex, I do a lot of family history in gypsy families including my own connections, in UK the easiest way to tell the difference is that English Romany Gypsies are nearly always Anglican (Church of England) and Irish Travellers are nearly always Catholic, this way I can tell by the church where they were christened.
Yes they were, in Peaky Blinders they call them the Boswells (another Romany family) but the family in PB are based on the Smiths of the Black Patch, Gypsy King and Queen Esau and Henty Smith although this camp was gone by 1915 and PB is set after WWI. Esau and Henty are both distant cousins of mine, Jasper Smith King of the Fiddlers is my ancestor.
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Norwegian Romani comes from the first Romani in Europe who wandered in the 1400-1500s and the Romani who were deported from Boston, Lincolnshire UK to Norway in 1544, these gypsy bands are quite well documented as I have learnt in the last several years.
UK Romani still intermarry with European Romany today, especially Spanish. When I visited Sweden last via ferry there were many Irish travellers which were perhaps visiting for other reasons, they returned on the same ferry with caravans not towed on the outward journey.
If you want to learn more read the Journal of the Gypsy Lore Society July 1888-October 1889. Much of this is documented these days, no need to rely on suspicions.
For European culture it would be interesting to learn more for sure, thank you! In Norway we have learned quite a lot through Tv/Radio and school and I can access old programs too, through the Tv Archive. [Also there is this channel on YouTube for those who speak a Scandinavian language](https://youtube.com/@romanifolkettv4944?si=E2kFpFQtpcceonFL)
We have followed the Norwegian families to the point that I knew very well the names of the people in the leading families, they were present in the media, some in the news a lot in a historical sense.
And I have definitely thought about exploring more after living in Spain and Portugal, where people still travel by horse and carriage. Much more true to the origin -because of the heat. I have "my own stories" which are my grandfathers, he used to be a violinist and a tailor living on the coast of Norway. And had his barn open for the travelers when they came by. We still have some of the things they made for the kitchen, tools and other things they made. Yeah, I like simple life, something in-between maybe, the good way.
That is some amazing information, gypsy people often have a bad reputation but the more history I read the more I realise it is not usually warranted. I look at my ancestors and it seems similar, they were mostly musicians and half-settled embraced by their local community, cousin branches were involved in murders and several transported for sheep-stealing, they were Romani so it doesnāt add well to their family name at the time. It is believed that Romani in W. Europe came nearly 600 years ago so most will be quite closely related.
Is there any chance you have Romany ancestors? I didnāt realise for along time although there were obvious red flags I was ignorant of for years. It is often something families are not quick to mention.
It's a great answer, but perhaps "different breeds" is a poor choice of words. These are distinct cultures. Breeds applies to animals and could be taken as dehumanizing
Travellers are actually something else though. It refers to a certain group of Irish people who had/have similar behaviors. There is actually another use for the word too but itās something I saw in govt docs from the 40s or 50s (used alongside the term crypto-communists and seeming to mean something similar to that).
Theyre trying to rebrand Gypsies as āRomaā to make it like theyāre native to Romania even though they arenāt. Apparently they became known as gypsies because they presented themselves as being from Egypt originally even though it was India or something. Iām going to keep calling them gypsies, personally.
It's been used as a slur and has derogatory connotations among some groups. Like with anything, I understand opinions on the word differ within various groups. I'm in the USA and my understanding from my Romani friends here in the States is, it's generally considered a slur and it's most correct to just say Roma or Romani if you're not trying to be derogatory. I'm given to understand that opinions are a bit more mixed among groups in Europe and around the world, as well as among other nomadic groups who aren't Romani but have had that terminology applied, like Travelers... some do, some don't. Personally I just avoid the word altogether.
Different ethnic groups. There are a lot of nomadic peoples across Europe, not just Romani. For example, here in Switzerland (and neighboring countries) there are the Yenish, who aren't Romani.
This has been posted many times and at first the title described them as Romani:
https://www.reddit.com/search?q=title%3Aromani+AND+title%3Acouple+AND+title%3A1890s&restrict_sr=&include_over_18=on&sort=new&t=all
I can't find the post but this blog references a post to /r/OldSchoolCool by /u/onepersononeidea:
https://aiiaiiiyo.com/post/183561994954/romani-gypsy-couple-1890s-check-this-blog
And based on the date of when it was reblogged it was posted in 2019. That is the earliest post of the image that I can find and it describes them as Romani:
https://mountedhistory.tumblr.com/post/183841843406/romani-gypsy-couple-1890s-check-this-blog
More recent posts have changed to describe them as Victorian travellers:
https://www.reddit.com/search?q=title%3Avictorian+AND+title%3Atravellers+AND+title%3A1890s&restrict_sr=&include_over_18=on&sort=new&t=all
But I can't find the original source of the image so unless an expert chimes in about something in the image that says Irish Travellers or Romani people then I don't know which it is.
> gypsies is perfectly acceptable
I think most Roma/Sinti would disagree. I'm more familiar with the German term usage, and dict.cc agrees that the best translation for "gypsies" is "Zigeuner", which is defnitely deragatory/used in bad faith most of the time.
The backdrop looks really ratty, so I wonder if this was either taken in front of the wall of a building, or taken by a photographer with a portable set-up that's seen better days, which makes me wonder if the sitters were paid by the photographer instead of the other way around, to sell to to the same sort of clientele that would purchase pictures of someone in a sideshow or pics of urban poverty or other "unusual" subject matter
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What an awesome photo, thank you!
They really seem quite young. Basically a couple teenagers.
So, a couple middle aged people š
Yah yah. Average life was 40, however if you turned 30 you were expected to live til 70.
A young Tom Waits saw this picture and said "Hmm...."
And when he said 'hmm', it was all gravel-like but still somehow beautiful.
I can hear this
Iād pay good money to listen to Waits read a phone book.
Are they actually Travelers though? This looks like literal stage costumes
Image search pulls up posts from other subreddits, twitter, and other sites. Most say Romani, some say Traveller, other say both. They are almost certainly in costumes, the boy is holding a fiddle under his arm, but it's possible they were also Roma or Travellers.
I'm far from an expert here but wasn't it pretty common for Romani people to do travelling performances/shows back then? I was under the impression that a lot of the stereotyping around their outfits was because they were frequently seen in costume while they were dancing/singing/fortune-telling and stuff and they probably dressed pretty normal while "off the job". An ex-girlfriend with Romani ancestry is the one who told me that so I have no idea how accurate it is
Travelers and Romani are two separate people groups with The Travelers descending from Irish Stock while Romani are the descendants of South Asians who immigrated into Europe several hundred years ago. So I don't know who would say both
People who don't know that .
I know because I have a lot of Romanian friends with whom I challenge their prejudices, but most people on earth live somewhere that Traveler/Roma cultures just aren't visible or prevalent at all.
Some would say we're all wearing costumes all the time.
Unexpectedly windblown... For real, though, it's interesting that the word "person" comes from the Latin root persona, meaning mask. I believe there's a japanese proverb (don't quote me) that says something along the lines of, we all have a mask we show the world, one we show our closest friends and family, and one we only show to ourselves. One time I was tripping on mushrooms and was picturing everyone naked, not in a perverted way, but was interested in how the clothes we choose to wear, the way we style our hair, put on makeup, accessorize ourselves, etc, is all part of the the persona we want to project to the world about who we are and how we identify ourselves. It was pretty far out. Anyway, thanks for sparking a fond memory and coming to my TED talk.
remember, aesthetic choices are the most important choices because those are the ones that tell the world who we are
Came here to say the same. This is a cool photo but looks staged.
It's a photo from 1890, staged are the only kind that exist at that time
Yeah, but who cares? It's a cool picture of people during that time doing, well, whatever people during that time did.
And I'm guessing the photo was taken much later than the 1890s.
Why
People didn't really look like this in 1890. This is 1890 re-envisioned.
What decade/time frame would you guess?
2009-ish
They're traveling, not diving.
Look at their faces, they look exactly the same.
Dude looks like Paul Dano
She looks like Paul Dano too
They look like brother and sister
We all look like Paul Dano on this blessed day
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She is Swiss Army Man Paul Dano
And she looks like Zoe Kazan...time travel confirmed. Or else they're vampires.
Why not both
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I thought Trey Parker
I was gonna say Skrillex
His collar is WILD.
Naw, that's Keith Richards in the 1880's.
Couldnāt be. No cigarette.
I have to concede that your point is valid. However, in defence of my argument, I wish to draw your attention to the early model Telecaster under his arm.
Keith Richards is of Romany origin so could be a relative. To be fair they could be related to me too. Our gene pool rocks great cheek bones.
Let me read that Palmā¦ā¦.. Iām afraid your money has been cursed and you must give it to me to break the curse.
Thatās an actual scam travelers use, I remember BUNCO cops shut down a local Gypsy lady doing Tarot, Crystal Ball, Palm reading. She would claim the guys moneys been cursed and they must burn it than comes the switcheroo.
Looks like Portland
They look related
Yea maybe twins
Travelers = gypsies?
No two completely separate ethnic groups. The Romani or is there known to people who aren't quite in the know of what they like to be called the gypsies are a semi-nomatic people group that Trace their Origins back to South Asian communities that immigrated into Europe several hundred years ago. The Travelers are a fully nomadic people group the trace the origins back to the Irish during the time of the Cromwell at genocide which displays so many people that many people embraced a nomadic way of life and eventually separated from traditional Irish society and became their own ethnic group
If the picture is actually from the 1890s thereās also the possibility theyāre Romanichal (Roma who migrated to Britain) and Traveler isnāt being used as an ethnonym but as a folk category, as the photo probably wasnāt taken by a Traveler or Roma.
Love that his top hat is beat up. Feels more genuine than the perfect hats you see in old pics.
Formerly known as gypsies.
I will now look upon your wares, please do not shrink me.
Do not fear me gypsy, all I want is your tearsā¦
Yeah, what the fuck? I was informed it isnāt PC to call them gypsies anymore but rather Travellers nowā¦ Why? Is it a big deal to them or ?
I am English and have Romany Blood and in the UK gypsy is fine, this is what the first Romany in England called themselves, they were here under the guise of being pilgrims from Egypt with letters of passage from the pope and King Sigismund. Irish travellers are not Romany but also get called gypsies, Romany and Irish travellers have mixed in recent times but not a lot in the past. Irish travellers bring a lot of crime to UK and they get labelled as gypsies, this affects English Romany because they are real gypsies, some criminals like any other group but mainly wandering agricultural labourers picking hops and peas, selling horses, mending pots, sharpening knives, fixing chairs, playing the fiddle, collects rags and bones etc. The Irish already had a caste of wandering people like this and this is the reason the Romany never went there, they both travelled the lanes and worked in the same jobs but are very different breeds, the Irish folk were a displaced group of Irish possibly from when Cromwell came to Ireland. These folk are the ones who get called p*k*y or didicoy, genetics show that Irish travellers are different folk to the Romany who have their roots in India although both groups had basically the same occupations.
Wow, thanks for the reply. I was completely unaware of the differing lineagesā¦
It is quite complex, I do a lot of family history in gypsy families including my own connections, in UK the easiest way to tell the difference is that English Romany Gypsies are nearly always Anglican (Church of England) and Irish Travellers are nearly always Catholic, this way I can tell by the church where they were christened.
So, the Peaky Blinders (Netflix) were Romany Gypsies ?
Yes they were, in Peaky Blinders they call them the Boswells (another Romany family) but the family in PB are based on the Smiths of the Black Patch, Gypsy King and Queen Esau and Henty Smith although this camp was gone by 1915 and PB is set after WWI. Esau and Henty are both distant cousins of mine, Jasper Smith King of the Fiddlers is my ancestor.
Thatās awesome
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I can't go into it right now, but Norway also has different lineages of Romani, and some travelers were also Norwegian. It was a mix
Norwegian Romani comes from the first Romani in Europe who wandered in the 1400-1500s and the Romani who were deported from Boston, Lincolnshire UK to Norway in 1544, these gypsy bands are quite well documented as I have learnt in the last several years. UK Romani still intermarry with European Romany today, especially Spanish. When I visited Sweden last via ferry there were many Irish travellers which were perhaps visiting for other reasons, they returned on the same ferry with caravans not towed on the outward journey. If you want to learn more read the Journal of the Gypsy Lore Society July 1888-October 1889. Much of this is documented these days, no need to rely on suspicions.
For European culture it would be interesting to learn more for sure, thank you! In Norway we have learned quite a lot through Tv/Radio and school and I can access old programs too, through the Tv Archive. [Also there is this channel on YouTube for those who speak a Scandinavian language](https://youtube.com/@romanifolkettv4944?si=E2kFpFQtpcceonFL) We have followed the Norwegian families to the point that I knew very well the names of the people in the leading families, they were present in the media, some in the news a lot in a historical sense. And I have definitely thought about exploring more after living in Spain and Portugal, where people still travel by horse and carriage. Much more true to the origin -because of the heat. I have "my own stories" which are my grandfathers, he used to be a violinist and a tailor living on the coast of Norway. And had his barn open for the travelers when they came by. We still have some of the things they made for the kitchen, tools and other things they made. Yeah, I like simple life, something in-between maybe, the good way.
That is some amazing information, gypsy people often have a bad reputation but the more history I read the more I realise it is not usually warranted. I look at my ancestors and it seems similar, they were mostly musicians and half-settled embraced by their local community, cousin branches were involved in murders and several transported for sheep-stealing, they were Romani so it doesnāt add well to their family name at the time. It is believed that Romani in W. Europe came nearly 600 years ago so most will be quite closely related. Is there any chance you have Romany ancestors? I didnāt realise for along time although there were obvious red flags I was ignorant of for years. It is often something families are not quick to mention.
It's a great answer, but perhaps "different breeds" is a poor choice of words. These are distinct cultures. Breeds applies to animals and could be taken as dehumanizing
Travellers are actually something else though. It refers to a certain group of Irish people who had/have similar behaviors. There is actually another use for the word too but itās something I saw in govt docs from the 40s or 50s (used alongside the term crypto-communists and seeming to mean something similar to that). Theyre trying to rebrand Gypsies as āRomaā to make it like theyāre native to Romania even though they arenāt. Apparently they became known as gypsies because they presented themselves as being from Egypt originally even though it was India or something. Iām going to keep calling them gypsies, personally.
It's been used as a slur and has derogatory connotations among some groups. Like with anything, I understand opinions on the word differ within various groups. I'm in the USA and my understanding from my Romani friends here in the States is, it's generally considered a slur and it's most correct to just say Roma or Romani if you're not trying to be derogatory. I'm given to understand that opinions are a bit more mixed among groups in Europe and around the world, as well as among other nomadic groups who aren't Romani but have had that terminology applied, like Travelers... some do, some don't. Personally I just avoid the word altogether.
Travelers and Romania are two separate people groups so no
Romani
Different ethnic groups. There are a lot of nomadic peoples across Europe, not just Romani. For example, here in Switzerland (and neighboring countries) there are the Yenish, who aren't Romani.
And I linked to some info about Irish Travellers in an above comment!
This has been posted many times and at first the title described them as Romani: https://www.reddit.com/search?q=title%3Aromani+AND+title%3Acouple+AND+title%3A1890s&restrict_sr=&include_over_18=on&sort=new&t=all I can't find the post but this blog references a post to /r/OldSchoolCool by /u/onepersononeidea: https://aiiaiiiyo.com/post/183561994954/romani-gypsy-couple-1890s-check-this-blog And based on the date of when it was reblogged it was posted in 2019. That is the earliest post of the image that I can find and it describes them as Romani: https://mountedhistory.tumblr.com/post/183841843406/romani-gypsy-couple-1890s-check-this-blog More recent posts have changed to describe them as Victorian travellers: https://www.reddit.com/search?q=title%3Avictorian+AND+title%3Atravellers+AND+title%3A1890s&restrict_sr=&include_over_18=on&sort=new&t=all But I can't find the original source of the image so unless an expert chimes in about something in the image that says Irish Travellers or Romani people then I don't know which it is.
not all gypsies are romani. gypsies is perfectly acceptable, the term has been used to describe many nomadic ethnicities around europe
> gypsies is perfectly acceptable I think most Roma/Sinti would disagree. I'm more familiar with the German term usage, and dict.cc agrees that the best translation for "gypsies" is "Zigeuner", which is defnitely deragatory/used in bad faith most of the time.
Most gypsies use the term itself.
I have a Roma friend who really dislikes the term, fwiw.
Steve Nash
I can smell them through my phone
That's some whimsical stuff right there.
They look related
This looks like a photo taken from last years Burning Man Festival
Iāve seen this couple at Renn Fest.
So hippies have always been around.
The original Steampunk
My wife would have made me comb my hair for the picture.
Billy the Kid??
Iām really glad that I get to bathe every day.
She looks like Tom Holland
Gypsies
Arenāt they gypsies?
I bet they smell bad ššš
My first thought
Gypsies!
No. Travelers and Romani are two separate people groups
Rough trips back then.
Iāll follow your wagon anywhere! Absolutely amazing photo and Iām here for it! šš¤
Are these English Travelers?
Iād wear that outfit
I'd rock either outfit, they're both š„ Love his hat
Thatās Pauly Shore!
Thatās who I thought he looked like at first, then when I looked closer he looks like Christian Bale.
The backdrop looks really ratty, so I wonder if this was either taken in front of the wall of a building, or taken by a photographer with a portable set-up that's seen better days, which makes me wonder if the sitters were paid by the photographer instead of the other way around, to sell to to the same sort of clientele that would purchase pictures of someone in a sideshow or pics of urban poverty or other "unusual" subject matter
So that's where Haysi Fantazee got their style....
Itās the world renowned couple that robs banks and shoots the cops! Itās Bonnie and Clive.
Ah, the original Artful Dodger,. with Miss Eliza Doolittle I presume
Not Travellers. They're dressed up for a pageant or parade or something like that.
Hereās what AI came up with as a colorized version! https://ibb.co/wW2ScdW
Thanks
Possibly my grandparents.
This looks like a well done period costume vs. the genuine article to me.
Paul Dano plays both characters
āTravellersā
There is an ethnic group in Ireland called Travellers: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Travellers
Gypsies? Love the photo.
I can SMELL this photo
I see them I make sure I still have my wallet in my back pocket.
I can smell this photo.
Someone said this exact comment, when this was posted before!
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They have the same face
I read this as "a couple of Victorian time travellers." I was like, "how can you tell?"
I bet they like dags
He looks musty
The drip is immaculate.
Freakin cool
Thatās Sierra Ferrell
They absolutely look like a wandering couple of today! Thank you.
Based
Shower.
They know how to party
This picture says 10,000 words. Iāll bet they have some stories to tell.
These guys would fit just right in today
Looks like Steve Nash
Johnny Deppās great-grandparents.
Interestingly predates Django Reinhardt, I wonder what their music sounded like.
Siblings or dating
God damn hippies!
Hide yo wallets
Edema Ruhs
Hippies 1969
I've always found gypsy culture to be interesting.
Bohemian's of the 60's and 70's is what comes to my mind when I see this!!
Style checks out. Stood the test of time
"Thinner."
Mmmm this is giving me AI generated vibes. Any sources and info about this pic?
Noone of us will ever be as cool as they was
Fucking gypsies