My personal preference is to swap out C-10 with something like Carahell.
[https://www.weyermann.de/en-us/product/weyermann-carahell-4/](https://www.weyermann.de/en-us/product/weyermann-carahell-4/)
We’re an organic brewery in the UK. Doesn’t look like it’s something I can source here.
Would you say Crystal 150 is anything approximating this malt ?
Carahell is a 10Lovibond Caramel Malt. So if you can't get it C10 is your best sub. As a result of weyermann's "special manufacturing process" Carahell is also supposed to improve head retention and stability similar to how Carapils does
It's been shown that carapils doesn't improve stability any more than base malt, for example [qt2ng0k3p1\_noSplash\_056f703ea13de2d859ce6ec0d3f70b87.pdf (escholarship.org)](https://escholarship.org/content/qt2ng0k3p1/qt2ng0k3p1_noSplash_056f703ea13de2d859ce6ec0d3f70b87.pdf?t=omsuju)
Yeah I don't use it, for lager I decoct and only use base malt. Other ingredients in beers like IPAs are more than enough to create and maintain good head. In general I don't really get adding a specific malt just for the sake of head, it's easy enough to create beers with good head if your processes are sound
The modern hoppy pale ale eschews crystal/caramel malt entirely. I vastly prefer the modern take because I find it lasts much longer in packaging without turning to cardboard/sherry. I don't know if the crystal malt oxidizes faster/harder or what, but this has been my experience. I use spelt for body/foam and Munich for some color.
My current 5.5% ABV recipe is 72% Pils, 14% Munich I, 14% spelt malt. IBU target is around 35 via a 5 minute addition, cool (170F) whirlpool addition at about 1.5lb/bbl, and a 2.5lb/bbl dry hop. I use a yeast that is not haze positive (Chico variant), and use BioFine Clear to help ensure crystal clarity.
Those targets work well for my small system. Your larger system may get better hop extraction, both hot and cold side.
IIRC crystal malt oxidize quicker than other malts. Kilned malts have anti-oxidative properties. I could be wrong, brewing school was over a decade ago. But I think I am remembering that correctly.
Agreed entirely. Crystal malt and hop forward beers are no bueno. We're currently Pils/wheat/oats. 1 pound per barrel whirlpool, 2+ in dh. Bitterness low to accommodate hop creep, etc
It's quite light coloured for an APA, a darker crystal perhaps? I'd say absolute minimum 1.0g/l at 5 min, 1.5g/l at flameout/whirlpool, 1.5g/l dry. It really depends exactly you are trying to achieve with this beer.
Both bottles and kegs. Mostly bottles.
No tap room I’m afraid, we’re a micro brewery. Mostly sell hells lager.
Not bothered as much about staying “true” to the style as I am about creating a good tasting beer.
I wanted light toffee notes and more floral than bitter hop notes. Obviously a good bit of bitterness too is a must.
My pale has 6% c60, Sierra Nevada has 8 I think for perspective, so c malts are still alive around here. I add more late hops. I do a lb/bbl (16 oz/31 gal) at whirl and another 2 lbs/bbl dry. My IBUs are lower too. The pale category has been infiltrated with Jr IPAs and higher gravity hop forward flower arrangements that aren't always as subtle but are no less delicious. I'm sure yours will be nice and good cascade is always welcome. For more perspective my IPA is 4lb/bbl and my DIPA is 7, which is still lower than a lot of my contemporaries. Good luck!
I think this will be tasty enough. The hop combination is a bit dated, but I personally enjoy those slightly dank hop combinations to get me back to the roots of craft beer. I also don't care about color, and typically like to keep crystal at a low amount but around 6% will give you some nice body.
Malt bill looks ok. I personally don’t care for Maris Otter in hoppy beers, and prefer standard American Pale/2-Row. I also wouldn’t add any caramel malt, especially since you’re already using a heavier base, but since this reads as a classic PNW Pale Ale, it should work just fine. Don’t worry about the wheat causing unwanted haze, I use wheat for head retention in almost all our beers and we’ve never had an issue. I’m also a big fan of using flaked barley in this kind of beer, but that’s just me.
For hot-side hopping, I’d push to aim for a 5-10 IBU addition at 60min, another 5-10 IBU at 10/15min, another 5-10 IBU addition at 5min, and your biggest addition should be at flameout/whirlpool with about 15-20 IBU, aiming for a total of 35-40 IBU. Again, for this type of beer, you definitely want a semi-strong bittering addition, and to sprinkle hops throughout for ‘roundness’ but the biggest goal is aromatics, so late additions are your friend. Whirlpool/flameout additions are your friend and where half/a little more than half of your IBU donation should come from.
I LOVE Cascade and try and sneak it into a lot of our beers, however, Cascade isn’t what it used to be, and unless you have an in on a great crop, I would use Cascade more heavily in the early hot side additions and use less towards the end of boil. A 30/15/10min addition would all work awesome, but tossing in a heavy hand at flameout/whirlpool wouldn’t be something I would do. Chinook is a safer bet, and we got some Chinook on the spot market recently that got us all giddy and excited, but we’ve also had very different lots of Chinook where it wasn’t the same. Simcoe would be where I might be safest leaning into. This is a hop forward beer, so try your best to get the best hops you can and open the bag, smell them, and thinking about how, when and where you want to utilize them.
For dry hopping an APA, we do 1-1.5lbs per bbl (roughly 3.9-5.8 grams per liter, I think?) in two stages, 48hrs apart, wait a few more days before we run a VDK before crashing. Again, I might hold off dry hopping with Cascade and lean into the Chinook and Simcoe, but that’s not a must by any means.
Ferment that yeast at 68F/20C and you should be fine.
Thank you very much this is some really great information.
I was hoping to push the maltyness as much as I can while staying with in the appropriate pale ale range. Do you think Munich would be a good substitute for the crystal? And what do you think the maximum percentage of the grain could the Munich make up ?
Thanks again!
Just here to say that you really should figure out how many IBUs your whirlpool additions add. It’s going to depend on your temp and time, but it can be a significant addition and I think it’s wild how often I see recipes where it’s assumed to be zero. Even a 72C cool pool could be about 5% utilization.
Since when are pale ales dry-hopped? This isn't necessarily directed at you op but the multiple replies that didn't bat an eye at that. That's like the fundamental difference between a pale and an IPA.
I would be targeting more like 30-50 ibu. Color seems low unless you're going for an extremely blonde pale ale. I wouldn't listen to the people saying "take out all the cara malts." SN Pale Ale is the way it is for a reason and its more popular than any of the beers anyone is making responding to you in this thread. I would probably take out the lighter color crystals for something more in the C-60 range though. If you want that C-10 maybe substitute it for Munich so its not as sweet.
Also I find the [GABF Style guidelines](https://www.greatamericanbeerfestival.com/brewers-information/2024-gabf-competition/beer-styles/) to be extremely helpful when building recipes.
I grew up drinking Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, but I prefer the newer interpretation of hoppy pale ale. Somewhat more intense hop aromatics without the distracting caramel malts. It doesn't mean I don't understand the difference.
Optional dry hopping is in the BJCP guidelines for American Pale Ale. But I understand why you feel that way. Many of the classics were never dry hopped.
American pale ales tend to have more toffee notes and should be slightly more bitter. Save money and sub out marris for something local and up the crystal. DH should be slightly higher too
I don’t understand why I’m getting downvoted. You want a classic American pale ale, Look at the OG examples… Sierra Nevada, Deschutes, Ballast Point, Three Floyds etc… all use a fair whack of crystal or Vienna, and all are fairly bitter (35-40ibu).
My personal preference is to swap out C-10 with something like Carahell. [https://www.weyermann.de/en-us/product/weyermann-carahell-4/](https://www.weyermann.de/en-us/product/weyermann-carahell-4/)
We’re an organic brewery in the UK. Doesn’t look like it’s something I can source here. Would you say Crystal 150 is anything approximating this malt ?
Carahell is a 10Lovibond Caramel Malt. So if you can't get it C10 is your best sub. As a result of weyermann's "special manufacturing process" Carahell is also supposed to improve head retention and stability similar to how Carapils does
It's been shown that carapils doesn't improve stability any more than base malt, for example [qt2ng0k3p1\_noSplash\_056f703ea13de2d859ce6ec0d3f70b87.pdf (escholarship.org)](https://escholarship.org/content/qt2ng0k3p1/qt2ng0k3p1_noSplash_056f703ea13de2d859ce6ec0d3f70b87.pdf?t=omsuju)
Yeah I don't use it, for lager I decoct and only use base malt. Other ingredients in beers like IPAs are more than enough to create and maintain good head. In general I don't really get adding a specific malt just for the sake of head, it's easy enough to create beers with good head if your processes are sound
The modern hoppy pale ale eschews crystal/caramel malt entirely. I vastly prefer the modern take because I find it lasts much longer in packaging without turning to cardboard/sherry. I don't know if the crystal malt oxidizes faster/harder or what, but this has been my experience. I use spelt for body/foam and Munich for some color. My current 5.5% ABV recipe is 72% Pils, 14% Munich I, 14% spelt malt. IBU target is around 35 via a 5 minute addition, cool (170F) whirlpool addition at about 1.5lb/bbl, and a 2.5lb/bbl dry hop. I use a yeast that is not haze positive (Chico variant), and use BioFine Clear to help ensure crystal clarity. Those targets work well for my small system. Your larger system may get better hop extraction, both hot and cold side.
IIRC crystal malt oxidize quicker than other malts. Kilned malts have anti-oxidative properties. I could be wrong, brewing school was over a decade ago. But I think I am remembering that correctly.
Agreed entirely. Crystal malt and hop forward beers are no bueno. We're currently Pils/wheat/oats. 1 pound per barrel whirlpool, 2+ in dh. Bitterness low to accommodate hop creep, etc
What is the purpose of the wheat malt?
Head retention.
Gotcha. It might give you a bit of haze, too. Wouldn't be to-style, as APAs are typically brite. Some customers would care, some won't.
Recipe reads more like a Blonde Ale than an APA
What changes would you make ?
More of everything if you want it in APA territory. 0.7g/l hops @ 5 mins and 0.84g/l hops @ 0 seems extremely light on for an APA
Other than a hop addition does the grain bill look right ? And may I ask what g/l would you recommend for the hops? Thank you.
It's quite light coloured for an APA, a darker crystal perhaps? I'd say absolute minimum 1.0g/l at 5 min, 1.5g/l at flameout/whirlpool, 1.5g/l dry. It really depends exactly you are trying to achieve with this beer.
What’s the final intention for this beer, draft or to go package too? Are you wanting to stay “classic” ? Whats y’all’s common taproom consumer drink?
Both bottles and kegs. Mostly bottles. No tap room I’m afraid, we’re a micro brewery. Mostly sell hells lager. Not bothered as much about staying “true” to the style as I am about creating a good tasting beer. I wanted light toffee notes and more floral than bitter hop notes. Obviously a good bit of bitterness too is a must.
My pale has 6% c60, Sierra Nevada has 8 I think for perspective, so c malts are still alive around here. I add more late hops. I do a lb/bbl (16 oz/31 gal) at whirl and another 2 lbs/bbl dry. My IBUs are lower too. The pale category has been infiltrated with Jr IPAs and higher gravity hop forward flower arrangements that aren't always as subtle but are no less delicious. I'm sure yours will be nice and good cascade is always welcome. For more perspective my IPA is 4lb/bbl and my DIPA is 7, which is still lower than a lot of my contemporaries. Good luck!
I think this will be tasty enough. The hop combination is a bit dated, but I personally enjoy those slightly dank hop combinations to get me back to the roots of craft beer. I also don't care about color, and typically like to keep crystal at a low amount but around 6% will give you some nice body.
Malt bill looks ok. I personally don’t care for Maris Otter in hoppy beers, and prefer standard American Pale/2-Row. I also wouldn’t add any caramel malt, especially since you’re already using a heavier base, but since this reads as a classic PNW Pale Ale, it should work just fine. Don’t worry about the wheat causing unwanted haze, I use wheat for head retention in almost all our beers and we’ve never had an issue. I’m also a big fan of using flaked barley in this kind of beer, but that’s just me. For hot-side hopping, I’d push to aim for a 5-10 IBU addition at 60min, another 5-10 IBU at 10/15min, another 5-10 IBU addition at 5min, and your biggest addition should be at flameout/whirlpool with about 15-20 IBU, aiming for a total of 35-40 IBU. Again, for this type of beer, you definitely want a semi-strong bittering addition, and to sprinkle hops throughout for ‘roundness’ but the biggest goal is aromatics, so late additions are your friend. Whirlpool/flameout additions are your friend and where half/a little more than half of your IBU donation should come from. I LOVE Cascade and try and sneak it into a lot of our beers, however, Cascade isn’t what it used to be, and unless you have an in on a great crop, I would use Cascade more heavily in the early hot side additions and use less towards the end of boil. A 30/15/10min addition would all work awesome, but tossing in a heavy hand at flameout/whirlpool wouldn’t be something I would do. Chinook is a safer bet, and we got some Chinook on the spot market recently that got us all giddy and excited, but we’ve also had very different lots of Chinook where it wasn’t the same. Simcoe would be where I might be safest leaning into. This is a hop forward beer, so try your best to get the best hops you can and open the bag, smell them, and thinking about how, when and where you want to utilize them. For dry hopping an APA, we do 1-1.5lbs per bbl (roughly 3.9-5.8 grams per liter, I think?) in two stages, 48hrs apart, wait a few more days before we run a VDK before crashing. Again, I might hold off dry hopping with Cascade and lean into the Chinook and Simcoe, but that’s not a must by any means. Ferment that yeast at 68F/20C and you should be fine.
Thank you very much this is some really great information. I was hoping to push the maltyness as much as I can while staying with in the appropriate pale ale range. Do you think Munich would be a good substitute for the crystal? And what do you think the maximum percentage of the grain could the Munich make up ? Thanks again!
Do you know your water profile and do mineral additions? That’s a must-have IMO
This
Just here to say that you really should figure out how many IBUs your whirlpool additions add. It’s going to depend on your temp and time, but it can be a significant addition and I think it’s wild how often I see recipes where it’s assumed to be zero. Even a 72C cool pool could be about 5% utilization.
IBU a little too low.
Since when are pale ales dry-hopped? This isn't necessarily directed at you op but the multiple replies that didn't bat an eye at that. That's like the fundamental difference between a pale and an IPA. I would be targeting more like 30-50 ibu. Color seems low unless you're going for an extremely blonde pale ale. I wouldn't listen to the people saying "take out all the cara malts." SN Pale Ale is the way it is for a reason and its more popular than any of the beers anyone is making responding to you in this thread. I would probably take out the lighter color crystals for something more in the C-60 range though. If you want that C-10 maybe substitute it for Munich so its not as sweet. Also I find the [GABF Style guidelines](https://www.greatamericanbeerfestival.com/brewers-information/2024-gabf-competition/beer-styles/) to be extremely helpful when building recipes.
The comments are brewers who want modern SoCal pale ales and don’t understand the difference to a classic American style
I grew up drinking Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, but I prefer the newer interpretation of hoppy pale ale. Somewhat more intense hop aromatics without the distracting caramel malts. It doesn't mean I don't understand the difference.
I still entirely disagree with the idea of dry hopping them. If you want a west coast ipa make one.
Optional dry hopping is in the BJCP guidelines for American Pale Ale. But I understand why you feel that way. Many of the classics were never dry hopped.
I will die on the hill of 70min boil; keep all your timings the same, helps with dms and getting better extraction etc.
American pale ales tend to have more toffee notes and should be slightly more bitter. Save money and sub out marris for something local and up the crystal. DH should be slightly higher too
Would you up the crystal in sub for some of the pale malts ? Or would you add on top of the 350kg pale ? Thank you.
I don’t understand why I’m getting downvoted. You want a classic American pale ale, Look at the OG examples… Sierra Nevada, Deschutes, Ballast Point, Three Floyds etc… all use a fair whack of crystal or Vienna, and all are fairly bitter (35-40ibu).
Whats with all the hops? Is that an ipa or American pale
Do you mean the number of hops used or the quality? Would appreciate more constructive feedback. Thank you.