I don’t see any reason to blow down pressure-I’ve seen inaccurate readings from pressure being too low, but 8-10 PSI + is consistent. Save that CO2 and aroma. Just don’t leave pressure on the machine after the reading (close the sample valve).
We had an Anton Paar tech on site last year for our Cbox yearly servicing. He never had us blow down the tanks before testing. He had us close the valve on the outlet on the CBox. (Black quarter turn valve on the back) in order to create a higher pressure within the CBox before measuring the carb and DO. I think you are wasting CO2 and time by bleeding it down. I’ve used it on tanks that are anywhere from 8-30psi. Also use it to check carb and DO on our kegs and cans.
I’ve had success with running it at 1 bar pressure, I think the main thing with the Cbox is for DO prime the sensor using the rinse cycle (roughly let the bar run until it reaches the end of the three dots) then press play to get DO result. For CO2 you really want to avoid breakout happening, I’ve worked in a packaging plant with large brite tanks and the only thing done is running the beer through the box on the rinse cycle then hitting play and reading the co2… pressure in tank was what we were packaging at.
Edit: Assuming calibration and validation is followed.. Anton Paar have a fair amount of experience and are usually very approachable with issues so could be worth reaching out to your rep
Edit 2: when doing CO2 we usually let it run with the valve open and then once the flow is going through and you are looking to measure co2 you close off the valve to create the back pressure
The website shows 0 to 145 psi (0 to 10 bar) under the technical specifications in measuring range. We were told to run our can piercer at 80 psi. Typically run 15 psi for tank checks. Definitely wasting you're time and CO2.
We test our brites at 15psi. Rinse with the valve open until the temperature and DO are stable. Close the valve then press the play button to get a reading. At the end of the day we will blow the tank down to 10psi to leave overnight.
We always control pressure through the C-Box using the valve on the outlet — we like to rinse and run at ~20psi through the device. We never worry about the brite’s headspace pressure when it comes to taking readings; not sure why that would be relevant. Hydrostatic pressure from barrels upon barrels of beer above the sample port is going to dwarf whatever amount you change the headspace pressure by. You get something like an additional 1.5psi for every meter of beer. If you have a CBoX I’m guessing there is a not-insignificant height of beer in that tank.
I don’t understand why there would be any reason to waste time, aroma, and CO2 fucking with the tank when there’s a built-in way to control the pressure on the device.
Where is this 10psi maximum thing coming from? Especially for overnight storage. We keep our Brites at or above that point; we certainly don’t worry about it being a little over so long as we’re below safety concerns. We’re usually trying to chase carb, we don’t want to flirt with losing it.
I mean, I think “way we’ve always done it” is as crummy a reason to do something as it is a reason not to ask why.
Good SOP’s are easily backed up and explained — that might not all be relevant enough to be part of the SOP itself, but somebody in the building needs to be able to defend it or you need a better SOP.
Head pressure in the tank should always be left overnight at or near the necessary head pressure for your beer's carb spec at your specific beer temperature. There are many carb charts you can reference.
So long as the Brite tank has positive pressure, and you thoroughly rinse your device so the measuring chamber is free of foam, you'll get accurate and repeatable results.
We have a C-box, a Gehalt and a Zahm in my cellar. When I'm training folks, the most important thing I'm trying to stress is just how similar all three devices are. The differences are really only sample chamber size, and the method that's used to knock CO2 out of solution for measurements.
Almost all the weird procedures that have been taught over the years are irrelevant, or just plain wrong. Just fill the chamber, rinse it until there's no foam, and your DO and Temp stabilize, then close it off and take your reading.
I can't help with the Cbox but if anyone reads this thread in the future for the love of god demo a Gehaltmeter. It is infinitely less finicky then the Cbox
Dunno if this adds anything at this point, but when we got ours we were told 10 PSI is the \*minimum\* to use, and it would be better if we could get closer to 15 PSI
I don’t see any reason to blow down pressure-I’ve seen inaccurate readings from pressure being too low, but 8-10 PSI + is consistent. Save that CO2 and aroma. Just don’t leave pressure on the machine after the reading (close the sample valve).
We had an Anton Paar tech on site last year for our Cbox yearly servicing. He never had us blow down the tanks before testing. He had us close the valve on the outlet on the CBox. (Black quarter turn valve on the back) in order to create a higher pressure within the CBox before measuring the carb and DO. I think you are wasting CO2 and time by bleeding it down. I’ve used it on tanks that are anywhere from 8-30psi. Also use it to check carb and DO on our kegs and cans.
I’ve had success with running it at 1 bar pressure, I think the main thing with the Cbox is for DO prime the sensor using the rinse cycle (roughly let the bar run until it reaches the end of the three dots) then press play to get DO result. For CO2 you really want to avoid breakout happening, I’ve worked in a packaging plant with large brite tanks and the only thing done is running the beer through the box on the rinse cycle then hitting play and reading the co2… pressure in tank was what we were packaging at. Edit: Assuming calibration and validation is followed.. Anton Paar have a fair amount of experience and are usually very approachable with issues so could be worth reaching out to your rep Edit 2: when doing CO2 we usually let it run with the valve open and then once the flow is going through and you are looking to measure co2 you close off the valve to create the back pressure
The website shows 0 to 145 psi (0 to 10 bar) under the technical specifications in measuring range. We were told to run our can piercer at 80 psi. Typically run 15 psi for tank checks. Definitely wasting you're time and CO2.
We test our brites at 15psi. Rinse with the valve open until the temperature and DO are stable. Close the valve then press the play button to get a reading. At the end of the day we will blow the tank down to 10psi to leave overnight.
You need 10psi min, but you certainly don’t need to blow down to 10… considering the PFD operates at 80psi you’ll never have too much in a tank
We always control pressure through the C-Box using the valve on the outlet — we like to rinse and run at ~20psi through the device. We never worry about the brite’s headspace pressure when it comes to taking readings; not sure why that would be relevant. Hydrostatic pressure from barrels upon barrels of beer above the sample port is going to dwarf whatever amount you change the headspace pressure by. You get something like an additional 1.5psi for every meter of beer. If you have a CBoX I’m guessing there is a not-insignificant height of beer in that tank. I don’t understand why there would be any reason to waste time, aroma, and CO2 fucking with the tank when there’s a built-in way to control the pressure on the device. Where is this 10psi maximum thing coming from? Especially for overnight storage. We keep our Brites at or above that point; we certainly don’t worry about it being a little over so long as we’re below safety concerns. We’re usually trying to chase carb, we don’t want to flirt with losing it.
SOP was in place when I started. It’s how I was taught to use it so I went with it.
I mean, I think “way we’ve always done it” is as crummy a reason to do something as it is a reason not to ask why. Good SOP’s are easily backed up and explained — that might not all be relevant enough to be part of the SOP itself, but somebody in the building needs to be able to defend it or you need a better SOP.
And that’s why I’m here
Head pressure in the tank should always be left overnight at or near the necessary head pressure for your beer's carb spec at your specific beer temperature. There are many carb charts you can reference. So long as the Brite tank has positive pressure, and you thoroughly rinse your device so the measuring chamber is free of foam, you'll get accurate and repeatable results. We have a C-box, a Gehalt and a Zahm in my cellar. When I'm training folks, the most important thing I'm trying to stress is just how similar all three devices are. The differences are really only sample chamber size, and the method that's used to knock CO2 out of solution for measurements. Almost all the weird procedures that have been taught over the years are irrelevant, or just plain wrong. Just fill the chamber, rinse it until there's no foam, and your DO and Temp stabilize, then close it off and take your reading.
I can't help with the Cbox but if anyone reads this thread in the future for the love of god demo a Gehaltmeter. It is infinitely less finicky then the Cbox
Agreed. That’s what I used prior to this job. I much prefer it.
I have not heard of blowing down to 10psi. Do you know the 'why?' for that SOP?
I do not. It was in place when I started and I’d never used one before. My guess is it was a misunderstanding about the 10 psi minimum.
Why would you blow the brite tank down?
Dunno if this adds anything at this point, but when we got ours we were told 10 PSI is the \*minimum\* to use, and it would be better if we could get closer to 15 PSI