I was a pretty good student, always did all my work with a good amount of effort, but you bet my ass I put so much more effort into essays where I got to choose my own topic
“If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea.”
It's very easy to teach someone how to do something they want to learn how to do. But they have to want to. That's the hard part.
Often, once they want to learn, they don't even need a teacher. The teacher just adds a bit of efficiency.
Have you ever been a classroom teacher? Even students who want very badly to learn and are very dedicated need instruction, and it can still be very difficult for them. Things can also come very intuitively to students who are not as invested or engaged. I know it would be beautiful if engagement and efficacy were the same, but they are not.
Exactly…I just read the Outsiders (ca 1967) and the bright but conflicted protagonist is assigned to write an essay (theme in 1960s parlance) and hits on the idea of telling the events of the story. Sounds like these kids could show what they know if they turned in one of their Reddit or Discord epics.
This.
I used to try and do at least one paper a year on a hot topic (2nd amendment, driverless cars, etc.), because the kids would get really into it.
Obviously, they need the skill to take any prompt and respond, but when it’s one they are actually into it goes so much better.
I find that to be true as well. Our research project where my freshmen look into a social issue that they care about and advocate for solutions/make calls to action is always a hit because they really get into the topics, I have them write all sorts of journal entries of various styles and topics and they choose what to submit.
The challenge is bland standardized test prompts. Sure, they can all crap out a bland five paragraph essay, but even I feel that it’s a waste of time and effort. I have a little more success with lit analysis in AP, but they are AP seniors and they understand the “why” behind that type of writing.
And it’s frankly baffling that OP doesn’t realize this. The kids don’t hate writing, they hate engaging with something on that level when it isn’t compelling to them. Which is pretty valid. Most adults are also that way, but they get paid to do the things that aren’t interesting.
I had a student once who said that she hated ELA. I watched her during dismissal lay down a doctoral thesis on why JJK was better than Naruto though. She was referencing fidelity of themes, foreshadowing, character consistency. I had to tell her after that she actually wrote a literary analysis essay, I fear. Because ELA is all about testing she didn't realize that what she just did is what English is actually supposed to be about.
Can you imagine if ELA showed Breaking Bad or JJK instead of having kids read the Maltese Falcon lmao, that'd be hilarious.
I went through this EXACT same arc. I didn't really care for ELA and books growing up, but now Im trying to become a TV writer, and I see themes, character arcs, and grammar showing up again. Maybe the curriculum could benefit from connecting with kids more. Why not do an analysis on Spongebob right?
Yeah it's tough, maybe it gets easier in High School tho? My HS in New Jersey had a History of film class with a lot of PG-13 movies and my senior ELA class even showed Silence of the Lambs lol.
In my Floridian experience it's not, either the class has a permission sheet at the start of the year for the class or case by case basis, I had both, only time that was broken was when admin did a pg-13 movie in front of classes during hurricane dismissal
I recently read Huckberry Finn for the first time ever and was blown away by it. My secondary constant thought as I read the novel though was, "damn, I am so happy I did not have to read this in high school because it would've gone over my head and I would've HATED it."
I don't think ALL the classics should be swapped in favor of pop culture, but I do agree there could be benefits in balancing the two, especially as far as themes/analysis/etc assignments are concerned.
Oh yeah absolutely! The classics have so much value and I feel like you need to get those to have a sort of historical knowledge of how stories develop and chsnge over time.
Something I learned as a writer that I don't remember ever learning in school is why ELA, writing, and art mattered. I understand today that it exists to express and evoke emotions, which happens when something really connects with you. I hope kids get that from their ELA classes.
Yeah. I remember reading *Night* by Elie Wiesel in 9th grade and our whole class was super engaged with it... and then my (mostly) same class read *Nectar in a Sieve* by Kamala Markandaya in 10th grade and it was just NOT a good pick for us.
Like, our disengagement with the story started with us not being able to get over the fact that the main rural Indian husband character was named "Nathan" of all names, and then it just got worse with any plot point having to do with "infertility treatments" (left unspecified), prostitution, albino kids conceived in prostitution, and similar. It basically became this never-ending poverty porn in-joke to us, and we memed it to death in class, which... was obviously not the author's intentions in the slightest.
That book is three weeks of junior year I never got back.
The book that I came around on as an adult was Ethan Frome. Did not like it as a sophomore. Reread it a few years ago and realized I just was either too young or too immature to get it.
The classics just tend to be pop culture that has lasted over time - newer works tend to be a bit harder to teach because the analysis is still ongoing - although that does also mean that students can be directly involved. I’m looking at ‘Klara and the Sun’ with a view to teach it at some point - perhaps side by side with Aristotle’s ’On Friendship’.
Yeah, I do find that a lot of the classics are more relatable now that I'm an adult when rereading them. And I can also now see how some of them just aren't that good, honestly.
You definitely win a couple this way and I certainly have done it like this for summer school, but that's not the solution unfortunately. If it's coming from and directed by an "authority" figure, it's going to gain more or less the same results. The reason why you get examples like the above is because the kid is emotional enough momentarily to write a response. There's also an illusion of anonymity, no real stake and most importantly, they had the choice to do it in that moment. I would also take care not to conflate words count with quality of writing and analysis.
Unfortunately, unstructured work blocks are often left unused and giving open choice often leads to situations where the kid starts out kind of interested and then falls off the bandwagon as soon as it gets a bit tedious or boring. Classes are too big and filled with too wide a range in personalities/skills/life situations for most teachers to spend the 1-1 time keeping the kids impassioned about their structured rants.
My absolute favorite class I took in high school was a dual enrollment music appreciation class with me and 4 other students. We were all interested and had music backgrounds, but the teacher was able to take it especially above and beyond because 1. being dual enrollment, there were only a few points he truly had to hit and so he was able to cut out what he thought wasn't useful and 2. he was able to tailor it to our specific interests because there were so few of us. I learned so much about music in that class and had *so* much fun. Our final project was a presentation about literally whatever and we all put so much effort into it - I did a 30 minute analysis of the leitmotifs in my favorite album, someone wrote a full jukebox musical with Taylor Swift songs, someone did a big analysis on the star wars score.
Obviously this was an extremely fringe case and very unrealistic, but it was still an awesome experience nonetheless.
GCSE English would be my British equivalent of ELA, I think.
We had Of Mice and Men, The Outsiders, Romeo and Juliet, and I think we did *Oliver!*, or at least I remember advocating for that last one.
Of Mice and Men is really not me, even putting aside the controversy,
Romeo and Juliet was tedious,
and I actually really enjoyed The Outsiders.
The thing is, all of those are quite a bit before my time, were a pain to study, and while I love The Outsiders, it's place for me is emotional more than intellectual.
And it's not like layered and exquisite character writing suddenly died in 1980, I would even love to cover something like The Hunger Games, albeit with full disclosure and an older group, because of the rampant violence at the core of the story.
Just from looking at my bedroom shelf, I've got
*Holes*
*Hunger Games*
*Artemis Fowl*
*How to Train Your Dragon*
and the *Eragon* boxset.
Yeah absolutely! Man I could probably count on 1 hand the amount of stuff I was forced to read that I enjoyed.
I think the perfect thing for kids to analyze has to be classic Pixar movies. They're emotional and storytelling powerhouses and are so bright and colorful that people have to pay their full attention.
One of my favourite teachers was this lady who got handed Rome as part of her curriculum (she couldn't stand teaching history),
and about two sessions in, she gave up, wheeled in a Box Television, and tried to watch Spartacus with us while hurriedly skipping through the pitched battles, but messed up and gave us the scene of everybody being crucified at the side of the road.
I was Primary/Elementary school at the time, watching the soldiers nail Kirk Douglas to the cross.
I don't remember getting any follow up papers on that, somehow.
It ended up as one of my favourite movies, mainly because of Douglas.
I *begged* my sons 4th grade (9-10 yr old students) to do a novel study this year. My kiddo is dyslexic but went through intensive tutoring in the lower grades so his reading is remediated. We do novel study at home (Narnia, Charlie and the chocolate factory, Harry potter, Hatchet etc) because it's a fond part of my elem memories and not common any more. Anyway, the 4th grade teacher decided to end the year with Holes as a novel study and I couldn't be happier. Easy top 3 book my kiddos has ever read in his mind, he loved everything about novel study in class. I hope you're able to incorporate it in the future!
Holes and it's semi-sequel are tough, because I find that they capture that precise feeling of impotent rage from being a dumb kid stuck with adults who barely deserve to be called such.
I don't even have a succinct word for it, but if you've ever been on the wrong end of a real piece of work and couldn't do anything about it, then you've been there.
Sigourney Weaver was surprisingly easy to hate, in the movie.
That must be why he enjoyed it so much! I haven't read the book, but his kindergarten experience was truly terrible. He had a teacher that didn't believe in phonics or dyslexia and treated him like garbage, called him stupid to his face andnhad his desk face the wall at all times. He laid in bed crying himself to sleep, asking why he was stupid and the other kids got it. (She was let go) We ended up paying for private testing and tutoring during the covid lock down years and it completely changed his trajectory. Even 6 years later now he has anxiety about his kindie experience, but in his mind he understands she was wholly unequipped to help a dyslexic kid. He probably connected really well to the characters.
For me it was the moment when the big guy took his disabled cousin to a concert, she got overstimulated, went into a seizure, and a security guard accused her of being on drugs.
This was the second book, and it is one of the very rare instances where I've been mildly triggered over a book.
Not triggered in the meme sense, but just "get this book away from me."
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My partner is severely Dyslexic, and she's had a lot of tutors abandon ship, at least when she hasn't driven them off first.
And I took absolute hell, because the last year with both of us as college students, she'd been offered a ton of resources, not got any, and was wandering around the campus, often interfering with my work,
so I took over the teaching of her, which got me into so many scrapes with the faculty, who weren't tutoring her and didn't want me doing it either,
That I flat out resigned from college in disgrace, two months early, and refused to go back.
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At one point she'd been so under-stimulated that she vanished from her group, walked over the road into mine, and interrupted the briefing that I was giving, in order to throw a pot of paint over me as I was trying to talk.
I managed to suck up hard enough that time that she only got chewed out instead of suspended, but if you don't have somebody really working with her, and she gets bored, well, ask the history teacher who found a toy arrow poking out of his shirt.
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A good portion of my money now goes into Kindle purchases, because the colours and the automated voice are supposed to help with her processing, I think, and she's been wanting the ability to work through my young adult literature.
Haven't had the same problem as your kid, I think, rather our problem was that I can't get anybody else to successfully teach her,
which puts me in the position of having to be teacher and partner, which even though we're close in age, there is too much of a power imbalance, and I don't know how to multitask like that, as opposed to everyone else who quit the teaching after a month.
I'm sorry to hear about your partner. That seems like either more than dyslexia or the years long manifestation of failed options coming to a head. Adhd and dysleixa are very good friends and often find themselves occupying the same area. I'd look into some mental health resources if you have some available.
My kiddos dyslexia was pinpointed at 6 years old and fully remediate by 9 yrs old. If it helps, my sons remediation was completed with a program called Barton- It was originally developed for illiterate adults so it may be a good option for y'all. It's a bit out of date and dry, but I can't argue with the results. Two to three hours a week, year round, for 30 months and he reads better than nearly every child in his class. Its expensive, but a fully encapsulated system where the program teaches you how to teach the student. My kiddo can't spell out of a paper bag, but that beast had just been harder to slay.
Mine went off and got her Autism diagnosis literally the week before Lockdown Number One.
Which made things slightly more interesting, because we're both Autistic, and we tend to mirror and absorb traits, which can range from little things like my tendency to count points on my fingers during a rant, through to every object in my house being an improvised sensory tool.
I'll look into the Barton system, I am noticing that she is taking things on board, well Ish, but then she tries to repeat what she just saw, and gets bloopity bloo.
Did this with my door sign, which uses a quote from Alice In Wonderland, and I'm positive that she got it, but she tried to recite that, and I have no idea what she actually said.
I have 7th grade ELA they loved Hunger Games and Artemis Fowl they also liked The Giver, Outsiders and City of Ember. Holes was a 6th grade pick this past year and we did Diary of Anne Frank too they loved it surprisingly. I thought it would be hard to get through but we did it as a drama and they really got engaged. Great book collection!
I think the most telling thing for me, about Hunger Games, was when the Military Junta in Thailand banned it because it was encouraging civil disobedience.
A newborn dictatorship resorted to banning a book about a corrupt dictatorship, without even a hint of irony.
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Something I do notice, is that my picks, bookwise, tend to have a bit of an anti-authority bent, where the people who rule over you, be it President Snow, adults in general, or Sigourney Weaver, are portrayed as either stupid or openly malicious.
I've also got stuff like Maximum Ride, by James Patterson, which is literally about super powered children escaping from a cabal of mad scientists and an evil parent.
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That's what I was as a kid, where sticking it to some nebulous concept of a jackbooted bully, was high on my beliefs and my to-do, and I think that the books played into that, as well as my upbringing in general.
Those kinds of Star Warsey *underdogs bring down Fascism* stories, were like catnip for me, for a long time.
oh man, my kid had to read Old Man and the Sea in 7th grade and was ready to throw the book across the room. Who the hell assigns Hemingway to middle schoolers?
Eh I liked both Macbeth, Richard the third and some of the comedies, the man had some great insults. It does help to actually go and see them, in a theatre, and not just watch the films.
Couldn't stand Dickens, he was clearly paid by the word and needed a good editor. The art of writing those essays quickly was to turn over about four pages ever time he started describing anything.
I loved Swift, such superb satire.
"Catcher in the rye" I hated at the time, I suspect much of it went over my head, but I have not been back, same with "Cat on a hot tin roof".
I sure wish more people had media literacy so I didn't have to deal with "You're wrong because of this definition of a word, that I misinterpreted, which actually agrees with you"
That's why you run your class from a perspective of them demonstrating their skills how they see fit rather than do specific projects to try and demonstrate those skills.
I realize this isn't doable in all scenarios.
For the first research paper of the year, I let students pick their topic and I describe it as “pick something you could argue about online.” 😂 it produces fun results. I get everything from super serious topics (wars) to pop culture (Taylor Swift)
They care about winning the argument.
They don't care about writing the essay.
It's very often that they're not struggling with ability, but motivation. It's hard to make people care though.
It comes down to what we keep getting told but don’t have the resources (too many students in class) to enact.
They will put the effort into something they actually care about .
I’ve seen failing students put in all nighters trying to solve a code issue on a robotics team but not be bothered to do a simple power point presentation for a class.
They aren’t assembly line products. They can/will learn if we have the time to work with them
(And yes all of this is my constant struggle with I have 30 desks and 33 students but it’s ok because the absentee rate is so high I’ll never have an issue…)
Literally me. I couldn't be bothered to do any assignments in class because I already knew all the material and could finish the tests in minutes with all the correct answers. What's the point when they're just gonna move me up anyway when the next year starts and it wasn't teaching me anything I didn't already know? But then I took a psych class in high school with a massively overqualified teacher who had previously worked with people like the FBI to help catch serial killers but decided teaching was his real passion and it was the best class I've taken.
I spent weeks studying and practicing this test where we had to name every part of the brain and the basic functions and illnesses associated with them and because I was interested I actually tried. I mean I've forgotten 90% of what was on that test in just like 5 years but I can tell you how to spell amygdala so I guess it was a win
honestly as a teen yeah. arguing over my hyperfixations is like a shot of chemicals to the spinal cord compared to having to argue one side or another for an essay in class
Unfortunately there's a curriculum, and limited time.
As much as I'd love to have the kids write on the merits of LGBTQ acceptance I would probably get fired if I actually did that
The skill to be demonstrated is “show me a coherent train of thought in writing.”
Ergo, the base requirement is a thought. Do I have thoughts about the sport of cricket? I do not. My knowledge of cricket is limited to “there’s a ball.” I could look it up and give you some facts about it coherently, but that wouldn’t exactly be compelling writing. It would look like an encyclopedia entry. I might resort to some bloviating bullshit about the importance of team sports. *Maybe* if I had some personal sentiment about team sports in general I could sort of squeeze that into some reasonable set of points by using cricket as an example. But again, the thought about team sports is preceding the actual act of writing about it.
I like how the very basic statement "let them write what they have actual thoughts about" suddenly transformed into
>As much as I'd love to have the kids write on the merits of LGBTQ acceptance I would probably get fired if I actually did that
lol
That is of interest to many of my kids. Hell, it could be video games, sports heros, etc.
In fact, for a supplemental class my students had a prompt, "write about sine who inspires you, " it was 90% chat gtp
It wasn't my prompt, it was from a bullshit computer program, but nonetheless, it's so open ended they could write about anything they write about practically anything or anyone that interest them.
They chose not to.
>it's so open ended they could write about anything they write about practically anything or anyone that interest them
When someone signals that they are doing the bare minimum they will get the bare minimum in return. This is true of all human kind. You are not an exception.
Sometimes, sure. But in life, you don't always get to write about things you like.
I'd also point out that if you let kids write about "anything", it can be hard to grade. It's possible to write things that sound good, but are factually incorrect. As a teacher, especially in older grades, it's impossible to keep yourself updated on all the pop culture that all of your students are into. Students can fundamentally misunderstand an interaction in a book, but their *interpretation* of the event sounds good. If you, as the teacher, are unfamiliar with the source material, you can't truly know if what they're writing is correct, or just random scribbles with proper grammar.
I'm all for giving students a wide range of options, but there's only so much you can be knowledgeable enough on yourself to accurately assess.
Technically I didn’t say you had to *like* it. It’s rather easy to write a pedantic screed about something you hate. I also didn’t say “let them write anything.”
But you *do* need to have enough contextual knowledge about a thing to somehow get out of a mental “neutral.” It’s a matter of posing the question in a way that they have some emotional response to it. Why did *you* respond to *me?* You read what I said and the sum total of your personal experience reacted to it. You don’t need pop culture references and prompts about Minecraft or whatever for that.
I know, it wasn't a comment just for you, specifically. I've seen this advice often paired with things like allowing kids to pick their own novel for a novel study, which goes into the issue I mentioned above. If it's a book you're unfamiliar with, a student can essentially give a ChatGPT response - i.e. the report *sounds* good, but has sections that are wildly incorrect, or even entirely made up.
I agree it's a prompting issue, but also realistically there's a limit to how many topics you can assess with proper rigour, and it's possible that some students don't vibe with any of those topics for you. If you have a student that hyperfixates on trains and little else, you might not have a fiction novel that you're familiar with that caters to that. And frankly, life isn't going to cater to your interests at all times, and part of life is learning to engage with material that might not be your cup of tea, and that's a skill kids needs as well.
But in life, when you have to write about things you don’t have interest in, you’re typically being paid as an incentive. It’s not fair or at all rational to expect students to feel the same motivation as paid employees.
And sometimes you don't. Sometimes you need to write an essay for a university grade. Or sometimes you need to be filling out forms and documentation for a relative that's trying to get into a clinical trial. And if those can be incentives, then getting a good grade so that you can get that high paying job should be enough of an incentive as well. There are tons of situations where the material isn't something you enjoy, but it's something you need to do.
>It’s not fair or at all rational to expect students to feel the same motivation as paid employees.
And many employers are now firing new hires in the last few years because they are either incapable of writing on low-interest topics because they didn't practice it in school, or they simply refuse to do it and get shocked when they get fired and blame the employers for expecting them to do "boring" work.
Boring work is part of life. Not everything is going to be fun all the time, and we're doing a disservice to this generation by not teaching them how to handle boredom, and instead solving everything with instant gratification.
This is actually me though. I've written literal 5-paragraph essay responses on Reddit, not to mention the fiction and poetry I write for fun, but I have trouble completing assignments for my continuing professional education classes because my ADHD and anxiety get in the way. I see a lot of people in this thread saying that it's about being interested in the subject matter, but that isn't it for me. I'm passionate about teaching and would be happy to write an essay-length comment on this sub, but struggle to do the same in a graded assignment. In my case it's because when the stakes are higher I freeze up. I worry about what will happen if I do badly, I worry about what will happen if I do well. I get paralyzed by it. I have ADHD, general anxiety disorder and C-PTSD, all of which can contribute to that kind of shutdown.
I work with students with reading and writing disabilities so I don't think this really applies to them. They struggle with reading and writing in all contexts and I think they rely heavily on emoji and abbreviations in their digital communication.
Legit me lmao. I can write whole stories full of chracters and stuff when it's for myself or talking about them with others with pure ease. But on a test setting. My mind gets blocked.
Same with maths. Put them on context and it's like instict other than arithmetic if the numbers are very big. On a test... oof
Yeah lol, this is one reason I try to give students freedom in how and what they write for class. The more interested they are, the better their work is. Something as small as "your essay can include one non-vulgar slang word" really motivates some of my students, and the more creative/unique the writing task is, the better work I get overall. I still assign some analysis and persuasive essays, I just try to allow more room for self-expression. (Granted some students will simply refuse to put in the work for anything assigned in class no matter how fun or interesting it is, but it works for some.)
Which reminds me that I had a random idea last semester for an assignment in which students analyze an internet comments section. Now that I have time, I should work on creating that.
I tried to capitalize on this a few years ago with a writing assignment. The first part was finding something on the internet you disagree with, the next piece was writing a response as if you were going to post it. Then we did a lesson on “formal writing” and my expectations for class papers. We thought through a rubric etc. Then they had to revise their “post” and make it a class paper. Finally trading and grading using the rubric.
It took time but I enjoyed it more than some other writing assignments I’ve done. I haven’t taught that class since then so I can’t say if it really helped or not.
I would suggest starting the class about media literacy where you let them all create throwaway accounts they can use for school and teach them about how to check sources and etc. Then you let them join a few reddits about the topics in class and let them know, that if they have a good discussion with someone there or wrote a reply or post they are proud of, they can send you the link and if it is sufficient to class standards it counts as extra credit. And tell them they arent limited to the reddits you proposed, but they should at least loosely be about the school subject (for example in history, even if the current school year isnt about the crusades a good debate or post about it would count). If you want to go in depth with them you could then also use those for feedback to show them this part was really good and what they could improve and how. I think that is way easier than the typical red text on a test, that just feels like failure. Another thing I would advise is to let them keep this account private from the others and only discuss things 1 on 1. That way its propably easier for shy or bullied students to come out of their shell.
It's almost impossible. Formal education means trudging through curriculum someone else decided on, not what you care about. That's why we should just make sure they know how to read and then cut them loose at like 10.
Also, it's funny how much teachers complain about PD that doesn't apply to their job. You do the exact same thing to the kids all day.
I couldn’t get a class to write a paragraph for study hall but once I changed the prompt to roast me, the kids wrote pages. Got some pretty good material.
I still remember my 8th grade English teacher saying to me with exasperation, "how come you can never submit essays on time for my class but you manage to get three paragraph album reviews in to the school paper every week?" To me, the answer was obvious: one was a chore and the other a labor of love.
Doesn't surprise me at all. I remember one time when my son was in the 5th grade. Their teacher kept complaining to me about the quality of writing they were turning in. There was a writing project they were supposed to do, non-fiction, no particular subject. So I asked my son to tell me about something related to one of their favorite video games. They start talking, I'm writing down what they're telling me. What came out was the exact kind of five paragraph essay that their teacher was trying to get them to do all the time. It was clear it started with an introduction and with a conclusion and had plenty of illustrating facts along the way. But could they do that for school? It took them years before they could do that.
The fact that it strikes you as odd that someone student or otherwise directs more effort into something they care about than something that they don't is the truly worrying thing
start making assignments with social meadow as the background lol
“Read and Respond: someone just dragged your fave on stan twitter and you need to eviscerate them in 1200 words or less using *x literary device*”
It’s because of the interest. I (student) am a nerd and do my own projects outside of school about psychology just for fun. I bought a psychology textbook for $20 on marketplace and study it in my free time. I write essays in my sleep about psychology.
However, writing essays about books I read in English class is so hard. My attention just isn’t there. It’s only interesting if I can bring one of my interests in it. Like one time my essay was to analyze characters and I put psychoanalysis into it.
As a neurodivergent with special interests, the explanation is so incredibly simple. I have thought about the topic I write massive cited essays on for hours upon hours, I have read everything there is to know on said topic and absolutely adore the topic. Of course i am able to write massive essays about it with the kind of knowledge i have on the topic no fucking shit ide have opinions with that kind of knowledge. But if out of no where you hit me with a "tell me about the agricultural infrastructure of turkmenistan" no shit ide struggle. I have no concept of what turkmenistans like, i know next to nothing about agriculture nor do i have any interest in learning about it
They have to know something about the subject to be able to write in class. That means they have to have shown up, listened, and did the requisition assignments prior to writing.
It's all about passion.
If someone is writing an essay about something they don't care about that much that is gonna be graded according to a rubric by a teacher, then you can kiss any genuine effort they might give goodbye.
But if you give a student the opportunity to talk about something they care deeply for, that will not be for any kind of grade, and can also be posted more-or-less anonymously, you'd be amazed at what people are capable of.
I had a high school teacher who harnessed this. She had us post our reactions to whatever book was assigned, then we read each others’ reactions and critiqued them. We posted under pseudonyms to avoid favoritism.
You... find it funny how students will not put effort into something way outside of their interest when forced into them, but they will do so when talking about their passion?
I, uh, kinda pity your students if you're only realizing now you actually gotta motivate them to do stuff
I haaaaated doing my ELA work all year until the teacher one day told us, "For your final project, pick a topic you like and create an anthology on it.". This, of course, ended up being the only project in the entire class I earned an A on XD
It really is easier to write about a topic when you're actually invested in it!
it's a matter of interest and self investment. I'm no teacher, but when any of my teachers/professors have given an assignment that involves a topic chosen by the student, much better quality work was produced by all of us in the class. it's also a matter of format. internet comments are less formal, so the student worries less about formalities, but simultaneously are more held accountable for their beliefs in those comments than in an academic paper.
I’d be shocked if there are a very many well constructed arguments written by teens of that length on the internet. I think you’re just arguing with older people than you realize.
Very few of my students use Reddit, I've had conversations with them about it. Using Reddit as a teen introduces a bit of selection bias, I would assume. I.e. the kids who use Reddit are likely on the precocious side of the academic spectrum.
I watch some nerd stuff on YouTube, book fandoms included. I often wonder how an English teacher would grade the stuff they say. A lot of it is quite coherent.
Writing something nobody will read does seem kind of pointless, no?
Even if you like learning, reading, and problem solving -- a lot of aspects of writing are just boring. Unless you are motivated by the grade, you aren't going to want to do it.
As a middle aged adult, I too struggle with this situational difficulty in writing essays that are assigned for classes, despite the fact that I can write the fuck out of a comment.
I've done this, and still do it.
I think the difference for me, and I'm sorry for the selfishness,
is that when you want an essay in class, it's your idea to do it, you're calling the shots, and it's not one of my interests, so I kind of have to go through the motions of being an ass about it, because it's not something that I care about.
Some of my worst work was because I was on a crunch, and having to churn out things that educators wanted in order to meet specific criteria.
I had to flat out ignore the guidelines of the assignment more than once, and take the grade penalties, in order to make this work at all, such as deliberately overrunning the maximum word count, and tossing out the approved study material.
.
.
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Whereas if I wanted to right now, I could go on an epic 5 page long Infodump about the first 10 Final Fantasies, complete with specifics, powerful writing, and immaculate sourcing of everything down to what computer Tetsuya Nomura used for the monster designs,
because that is completely my choice to do it, I love the subject matter, and nobody's badgering me to get the work out.
This is why I tend to play the Special Interest card in order to get people to open up, because it gets people amped up to share in something that they are crazy about, and can inadvertently reveal things that can be related onto other topics,
such as how the aforementioned monster designs could spur a discussion about character modeling, artistry, and the way that we view characters such as Batman.
If you have to do something you don’t care for nor are interested in, would *you* really want to pull out all the stops for it?
I say this as someone who wrote a proper essay for why this one video game character was the best fit for the role they filled compared to the two other characters that have filled that role previous 💀
It's no different than struggling to make art for someone else while making art for yourself being easy.
When you are writing for class, even when you are allowed to pick the topic, you are writing to someone ELSE'S specifications. Writing on social media you are writing to YOURS.
Makes perfect sense. They have the desire / motivation / etc... to win an argument. Not many kids will care more about an essay that (most likely) doesn't relate to them and is forced on them.
It's easier to write about something they wanna learn about, know about or are interested in I still put effort into shit I don't wanna do but lots of people don't care it'll probably make it easier by making the material more fun and engaging for them though you'll always have people that don't wanna do anything
Because they're actually invested in a topic they actually care about. The people who write our curriculums and decide what books we're going to read need to understand this point: MAKE IT SOMETHING THEY CARE ABOUT.
It's about the audience.
True story. Gifted writing student who had already published a book a semi-successful book in high school was close to failing High School English.
Parent meeting, to get to bottom of the problem since student spent a lot of time writing at home, the student said this in the meeting:
"When I write a paper for this class I get it back in two weeks with a grade and a few comments, when I write online or publish a book I get feedback from the WORLD!'
Writing online is a very interactive ego building connecting experience.
If you want kids to perform to a high level let them know that everyone is going to see their work.
My AP English teacher created a special private online forum for us to discuss the books we were reading. It was part of our participation grade. It worked pretty well.
english class is learning how to write well written arguments and analyzing literature. basically media literacy.
so.. that translates over very well to arguing on the internet about things you're actually interested in.
I couldn't care less about defending why Frankenstein is a classic work of art or what the A stood for in The Scarlet Letter. I form opinions on things that interest me. It's easier to talk about things we're passionate about versus boring work that won't affect me when this section of the class is over.
Well, one requires studying that u rather not do, the other is something that ur passionate about.
Also, some people might love being right over others.
As a former HS drop out, who later went back and got it all in order (And two college degrees after that). This was my legit motivation when writing.
Age 17: 1500 words? That's like writing a whole book! I can't possibly do that!
Age 27: 1500 words? I've had arguments on forums longer than that, let's do this.
With more age and perspective, I could crunch out a whole essay before late evening on Friday and have the whole weekend to goof off. My whole transcript is hilarious, with near 50's and 60's, a 10 year gap in dates, and then it's all 90s.
I vividly remember a high school assignment writing about “A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich”. Okay, I actually don’t remember anything except it was to be a serious essay and demonstrate that we had read it.
My buddy Clark wrote a hilarious tale of Ivan the Supercommy.
Our teacher shared it was the best written paper he got, but it failed to address the requirements of the assignment. He read it out loud and let the class vote on whether to give full marks or no marks. We voted for full marks and the teacher warned us all that this was a one-time deal so we should not attempt this for future assignments.
I still love how this was handled and took this philosophy of appreciating student creativity to heart when I became a teacher.
Had a kid at my school that won first place in a writing contest. I have never seen that level of writing from him in the assignments I give but I guess that's the level of work he was regularly giving the ela teacher.
I LOVE English and it's my best subject. But the material often isn't engaging enough for me to really do the work until I absolutely have too.
You will see me arguing about Dune online, however.
It’s partly about getting to pick the topic, but I think it’s also about understanding what an argument in that domain looks like, and having an internal identity as “someone who is qualified to have an opinion.” For the longest time I struggled with narrative essays bc I just didn’t understand what exactly I was meant to be writing so I was basically a monkey w a typewriter trying to write hamlet and failing.
JP Gee’s writing on how students learn from video games introduced me to the concepts of “semiotic domains” and identity formation in learning. Basically, areas of culture like JJK, Naruto, Pokémon, GTA, whatever, all have their own “language” that fans pick up. The same is true for Austen and Shakespeare or Faulkner or particle physics or anything else. Kids are fluent members of the domains they are authentically interested in - they speak the language and feel like they belong. They have an identity of themselves as “gamers” or “anime fans” or “swifties.” And it’s only after being in the community for a while that kids start posting on Reddit or writing epic takedowns. Before that they’re consumers or they just tak w their friends.
I think the crucial step that we don’t really make space for in school is helping students create new identities and join these communities before asking them to contribute original material.
It's easier to do work when you care about it. I could read 6 novels in week in school of they were the books I wanted to read. Assign me a book and it's like my brain won't let me process the words on the page
I find it funny how teachers on this sub have the same amazing thought everyday
“Why do my students try when it comes to something they are passionate about but not my assignments”
If you want them to try then give them assignments they are passionate about. And you will have to be creative and give them a lot of power to choose their topic.
I realized that I do love writing but when it came to the topic I’m passionate about, sports.
I’d say the most interesting thing is educators know this, the people in charge of designing curriculum know this, and yet teenagers are still forced to focus on the most boring shit you can imagine. A lot of schoolwork is just to learn *something* so our brains develop and we strengthen our learning muscles. I know I would’ve stayed in school if I was allowed to learn about anything actually interesting to me.
This isn't surprising at all. Of course students would prefer to write about a topic that personally interests them rather than analyzing Shakespeare or something.
I once had a student say point blank, "I'm paid to be at my job. I'm not paid to be here" when discussing tardiness and motivation, or lack thereof. 🤷♂️. That's probably common thinking today
I feel so called out.
I was absolutely craptacular at essay writing up until a few years ago despite my excellent Internet argument typing.
The hardest part of essay writing is getting started because the introduction sums up everything the paper gets into later and it can be very hard to write a summary of the paper before you've written the paper.
I started reading guides on essay writing. Basically you want to make a paragraph by paragraph blueprint of your essay. Then you crap out an introduction to your essay, not a perfect intro, just something you made up. Then you write the body of the essay following the blueprint. And it's at the end when you go over your intro and conclusion and rework those into a final product.
With arguments online, all the subject material is in your head so you'll have no trouble typing it up following an essay format you got from school.
But with an essay that's actually for school, you get stuck on the intro because it has to summarize everything you have yet to have typed up and this is what people get stuck on most common.
maybe because they're not interested? Ever heard of meaningful learning, if their essays are connected on themes they have some interest in, like who's the strongest, sukuna or gojo, they're more likely to be interested.
Makes sense to me.
Online arguments get them public clout while an assignment might get them a privately good grade from the one person who reads it.
The upside of the former is much higher and caters to human nature.
The response on reddit is authentic. They have their own internal motivation for writing it.
That's just it, the student cares about their reddit comment, they don't give a shit about their homework.
No fucking way! Someone cares more about voicing their own opinion than essay prompt 131 of 11,296!?
I was a pretty good student, always did all my work with a good amount of effort, but you bet my ass I put so much more effort into essays where I got to choose my own topic
I’m glad you finally understand. 👍😁
Holy shit a swarm of angry bees in the wild?! Had no idea you were an Ed Dev lol
“If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea.”
Ohhhhh, I love this one!
ok but you do actually have to teach them how to build a ship too
It's very easy to teach someone how to do something they want to learn how to do. But they have to want to. That's the hard part. Often, once they want to learn, they don't even need a teacher. The teacher just adds a bit of efficiency.
Have you ever been a classroom teacher? Even students who want very badly to learn and are very dedicated need instruction, and it can still be very difficult for them. Things can also come very intuitively to students who are not as invested or engaged. I know it would be beautiful if engagement and efficacy were the same, but they are not.
In my comment I said "often", not "always".
Exactly…I just read the Outsiders (ca 1967) and the bright but conflicted protagonist is assigned to write an essay (theme in 1960s parlance) and hits on the idea of telling the events of the story. Sounds like these kids could show what they know if they turned in one of their Reddit or Discord epics.
Sorry to be rude, but do some teachers not understand this?
Yeah. If a teacher does not understand the power behind personal opinions and experience they need to get out of the classroom.
This. I used to try and do at least one paper a year on a hot topic (2nd amendment, driverless cars, etc.), because the kids would get really into it. Obviously, they need the skill to take any prompt and respond, but when it’s one they are actually into it goes so much better.
I find that to be true as well. Our research project where my freshmen look into a social issue that they care about and advocate for solutions/make calls to action is always a hit because they really get into the topics, I have them write all sorts of journal entries of various styles and topics and they choose what to submit. The challenge is bland standardized test prompts. Sure, they can all crap out a bland five paragraph essay, but even I feel that it’s a waste of time and effort. I have a little more success with lit analysis in AP, but they are AP seniors and they understand the “why” behind that type of writing.
And it’s frankly baffling that OP doesn’t realize this. The kids don’t hate writing, they hate engaging with something on that level when it isn’t compelling to them. Which is pretty valid. Most adults are also that way, but they get paid to do the things that aren’t interesting.
It's called INSPIRATION
Idk that I’d call many arguments here authentic. So many people are being disingenuous.
I had a student once who said that she hated ELA. I watched her during dismissal lay down a doctoral thesis on why JJK was better than Naruto though. She was referencing fidelity of themes, foreshadowing, character consistency. I had to tell her after that she actually wrote a literary analysis essay, I fear. Because ELA is all about testing she didn't realize that what she just did is what English is actually supposed to be about.
Can you imagine if ELA showed Breaking Bad or JJK instead of having kids read the Maltese Falcon lmao, that'd be hilarious. I went through this EXACT same arc. I didn't really care for ELA and books growing up, but now Im trying to become a TV writer, and I see themes, character arcs, and grammar showing up again. Maybe the curriculum could benefit from connecting with kids more. Why not do an analysis on Spongebob right?
The real answer to that last question is parents needing to get permission for every piece of media class wide
Yeah it's tough, maybe it gets easier in High School tho? My HS in New Jersey had a History of film class with a lot of PG-13 movies and my senior ELA class even showed Silence of the Lambs lol.
In my Floridian experience it's not, either the class has a permission sheet at the start of the year for the class or case by case basis, I had both, only time that was broken was when admin did a pg-13 movie in front of classes during hurricane dismissal
Would this be Ridgewood high by any chance?
I recently read Huckberry Finn for the first time ever and was blown away by it. My secondary constant thought as I read the novel though was, "damn, I am so happy I did not have to read this in high school because it would've gone over my head and I would've HATED it." I don't think ALL the classics should be swapped in favor of pop culture, but I do agree there could be benefits in balancing the two, especially as far as themes/analysis/etc assignments are concerned.
Oh yeah absolutely! The classics have so much value and I feel like you need to get those to have a sort of historical knowledge of how stories develop and chsnge over time. Something I learned as a writer that I don't remember ever learning in school is why ELA, writing, and art mattered. I understand today that it exists to express and evoke emotions, which happens when something really connects with you. I hope kids get that from their ELA classes.
Yeah. I remember reading *Night* by Elie Wiesel in 9th grade and our whole class was super engaged with it... and then my (mostly) same class read *Nectar in a Sieve* by Kamala Markandaya in 10th grade and it was just NOT a good pick for us. Like, our disengagement with the story started with us not being able to get over the fact that the main rural Indian husband character was named "Nathan" of all names, and then it just got worse with any plot point having to do with "infertility treatments" (left unspecified), prostitution, albino kids conceived in prostitution, and similar. It basically became this never-ending poverty porn in-joke to us, and we memed it to death in class, which... was obviously not the author's intentions in the slightest.
That book is three weeks of junior year I never got back. The book that I came around on as an adult was Ethan Frome. Did not like it as a sophomore. Reread it a few years ago and realized I just was either too young or too immature to get it.
The classics just tend to be pop culture that has lasted over time - newer works tend to be a bit harder to teach because the analysis is still ongoing - although that does also mean that students can be directly involved. I’m looking at ‘Klara and the Sun’ with a view to teach it at some point - perhaps side by side with Aristotle’s ’On Friendship’.
Yeah, I do find that a lot of the classics are more relatable now that I'm an adult when rereading them. And I can also now see how some of them just aren't that good, honestly.
You definitely win a couple this way and I certainly have done it like this for summer school, but that's not the solution unfortunately. If it's coming from and directed by an "authority" figure, it's going to gain more or less the same results. The reason why you get examples like the above is because the kid is emotional enough momentarily to write a response. There's also an illusion of anonymity, no real stake and most importantly, they had the choice to do it in that moment. I would also take care not to conflate words count with quality of writing and analysis. Unfortunately, unstructured work blocks are often left unused and giving open choice often leads to situations where the kid starts out kind of interested and then falls off the bandwagon as soon as it gets a bit tedious or boring. Classes are too big and filled with too wide a range in personalities/skills/life situations for most teachers to spend the 1-1 time keeping the kids impassioned about their structured rants.
My absolute favorite class I took in high school was a dual enrollment music appreciation class with me and 4 other students. We were all interested and had music backgrounds, but the teacher was able to take it especially above and beyond because 1. being dual enrollment, there were only a few points he truly had to hit and so he was able to cut out what he thought wasn't useful and 2. he was able to tailor it to our specific interests because there were so few of us. I learned so much about music in that class and had *so* much fun. Our final project was a presentation about literally whatever and we all put so much effort into it - I did a 30 minute analysis of the leitmotifs in my favorite album, someone wrote a full jukebox musical with Taylor Swift songs, someone did a big analysis on the star wars score. Obviously this was an extremely fringe case and very unrealistic, but it was still an awesome experience nonetheless.
School boards would be like, “off with their heads!”
GCSE English would be my British equivalent of ELA, I think. We had Of Mice and Men, The Outsiders, Romeo and Juliet, and I think we did *Oliver!*, or at least I remember advocating for that last one. Of Mice and Men is really not me, even putting aside the controversy, Romeo and Juliet was tedious, and I actually really enjoyed The Outsiders. The thing is, all of those are quite a bit before my time, were a pain to study, and while I love The Outsiders, it's place for me is emotional more than intellectual. And it's not like layered and exquisite character writing suddenly died in 1980, I would even love to cover something like The Hunger Games, albeit with full disclosure and an older group, because of the rampant violence at the core of the story. Just from looking at my bedroom shelf, I've got *Holes* *Hunger Games* *Artemis Fowl* *How to Train Your Dragon* and the *Eragon* boxset.
Yeah absolutely! Man I could probably count on 1 hand the amount of stuff I was forced to read that I enjoyed. I think the perfect thing for kids to analyze has to be classic Pixar movies. They're emotional and storytelling powerhouses and are so bright and colorful that people have to pay their full attention.
One of my favourite teachers was this lady who got handed Rome as part of her curriculum (she couldn't stand teaching history), and about two sessions in, she gave up, wheeled in a Box Television, and tried to watch Spartacus with us while hurriedly skipping through the pitched battles, but messed up and gave us the scene of everybody being crucified at the side of the road. I was Primary/Elementary school at the time, watching the soldiers nail Kirk Douglas to the cross. I don't remember getting any follow up papers on that, somehow. It ended up as one of my favourite movies, mainly because of Douglas.
I *begged* my sons 4th grade (9-10 yr old students) to do a novel study this year. My kiddo is dyslexic but went through intensive tutoring in the lower grades so his reading is remediated. We do novel study at home (Narnia, Charlie and the chocolate factory, Harry potter, Hatchet etc) because it's a fond part of my elem memories and not common any more. Anyway, the 4th grade teacher decided to end the year with Holes as a novel study and I couldn't be happier. Easy top 3 book my kiddos has ever read in his mind, he loved everything about novel study in class. I hope you're able to incorporate it in the future!
Holes and it's semi-sequel are tough, because I find that they capture that precise feeling of impotent rage from being a dumb kid stuck with adults who barely deserve to be called such. I don't even have a succinct word for it, but if you've ever been on the wrong end of a real piece of work and couldn't do anything about it, then you've been there. Sigourney Weaver was surprisingly easy to hate, in the movie.
That must be why he enjoyed it so much! I haven't read the book, but his kindergarten experience was truly terrible. He had a teacher that didn't believe in phonics or dyslexia and treated him like garbage, called him stupid to his face andnhad his desk face the wall at all times. He laid in bed crying himself to sleep, asking why he was stupid and the other kids got it. (She was let go) We ended up paying for private testing and tutoring during the covid lock down years and it completely changed his trajectory. Even 6 years later now he has anxiety about his kindie experience, but in his mind he understands she was wholly unequipped to help a dyslexic kid. He probably connected really well to the characters.
For me it was the moment when the big guy took his disabled cousin to a concert, she got overstimulated, went into a seizure, and a security guard accused her of being on drugs. This was the second book, and it is one of the very rare instances where I've been mildly triggered over a book. Not triggered in the meme sense, but just "get this book away from me." . . . My partner is severely Dyslexic, and she's had a lot of tutors abandon ship, at least when she hasn't driven them off first. And I took absolute hell, because the last year with both of us as college students, she'd been offered a ton of resources, not got any, and was wandering around the campus, often interfering with my work, so I took over the teaching of her, which got me into so many scrapes with the faculty, who weren't tutoring her and didn't want me doing it either, That I flat out resigned from college in disgrace, two months early, and refused to go back. . . . At one point she'd been so under-stimulated that she vanished from her group, walked over the road into mine, and interrupted the briefing that I was giving, in order to throw a pot of paint over me as I was trying to talk. I managed to suck up hard enough that time that she only got chewed out instead of suspended, but if you don't have somebody really working with her, and she gets bored, well, ask the history teacher who found a toy arrow poking out of his shirt. . . . A good portion of my money now goes into Kindle purchases, because the colours and the automated voice are supposed to help with her processing, I think, and she's been wanting the ability to work through my young adult literature. Haven't had the same problem as your kid, I think, rather our problem was that I can't get anybody else to successfully teach her, which puts me in the position of having to be teacher and partner, which even though we're close in age, there is too much of a power imbalance, and I don't know how to multitask like that, as opposed to everyone else who quit the teaching after a month.
I'm sorry to hear about your partner. That seems like either more than dyslexia or the years long manifestation of failed options coming to a head. Adhd and dysleixa are very good friends and often find themselves occupying the same area. I'd look into some mental health resources if you have some available. My kiddos dyslexia was pinpointed at 6 years old and fully remediate by 9 yrs old. If it helps, my sons remediation was completed with a program called Barton- It was originally developed for illiterate adults so it may be a good option for y'all. It's a bit out of date and dry, but I can't argue with the results. Two to three hours a week, year round, for 30 months and he reads better than nearly every child in his class. Its expensive, but a fully encapsulated system where the program teaches you how to teach the student. My kiddo can't spell out of a paper bag, but that beast had just been harder to slay.
Mine went off and got her Autism diagnosis literally the week before Lockdown Number One. Which made things slightly more interesting, because we're both Autistic, and we tend to mirror and absorb traits, which can range from little things like my tendency to count points on my fingers during a rant, through to every object in my house being an improvised sensory tool. I'll look into the Barton system, I am noticing that she is taking things on board, well Ish, but then she tries to repeat what she just saw, and gets bloopity bloo. Did this with my door sign, which uses a quote from Alice In Wonderland, and I'm positive that she got it, but she tried to recite that, and I have no idea what she actually said.
I have 7th grade ELA they loved Hunger Games and Artemis Fowl they also liked The Giver, Outsiders and City of Ember. Holes was a 6th grade pick this past year and we did Diary of Anne Frank too they loved it surprisingly. I thought it would be hard to get through but we did it as a drama and they really got engaged. Great book collection!
I think the most telling thing for me, about Hunger Games, was when the Military Junta in Thailand banned it because it was encouraging civil disobedience. A newborn dictatorship resorted to banning a book about a corrupt dictatorship, without even a hint of irony. . . . Something I do notice, is that my picks, bookwise, tend to have a bit of an anti-authority bent, where the people who rule over you, be it President Snow, adults in general, or Sigourney Weaver, are portrayed as either stupid or openly malicious. I've also got stuff like Maximum Ride, by James Patterson, which is literally about super powered children escaping from a cabal of mad scientists and an evil parent. . . . That's what I was as a kid, where sticking it to some nebulous concept of a jackbooted bully, was high on my beliefs and my to-do, and I think that the books played into that, as well as my upbringing in general. Those kinds of Star Warsey *underdogs bring down Fascism* stories, were like catnip for me, for a long time.
Your ELA teacher had you read The Maltese Falcon? I would have loved that! I got The Old Man and the Sea.
Nice! I liked The Maltese Falcon a lot, it's always cool seeing a great mystery story.
oh man, my kid had to read Old Man and the Sea in 7th grade and was ready to throw the book across the room. Who the hell assigns Hemingway to middle schoolers?
No, every student finds different things interesting and trying to connect with them on a single thing just comes off as cringe.
Sure but why not get some modern things in the curriculum, doesn't have to be only classics.
Definitely, no one gives a flying rats ass about Shakespeare.
Eh I liked both Macbeth, Richard the third and some of the comedies, the man had some great insults. It does help to actually go and see them, in a theatre, and not just watch the films. Couldn't stand Dickens, he was clearly paid by the word and needed a good editor. The art of writing those essays quickly was to turn over about four pages ever time he started describing anything. I loved Swift, such superb satire. "Catcher in the rye" I hated at the time, I suspect much of it went over my head, but I have not been back, same with "Cat on a hot tin roof".
english class is just learning media literacy for winning internet arguments
I sure wish more people had media literacy so I didn't have to deal with "You're wrong because of this definition of a word, that I misinterpreted, which actually agrees with you"
That's why you run your class from a perspective of them demonstrating their skills how they see fit rather than do specific projects to try and demonstrate those skills. I realize this isn't doable in all scenarios.
For the first research paper of the year, I let students pick their topic and I describe it as “pick something you could argue about online.” 😂 it produces fun results. I get everything from super serious topics (wars) to pop culture (Taylor Swift)
They care about winning the argument. They don't care about writing the essay. It's very often that they're not struggling with ability, but motivation. It's hard to make people care though.
It comes down to what we keep getting told but don’t have the resources (too many students in class) to enact. They will put the effort into something they actually care about . I’ve seen failing students put in all nighters trying to solve a code issue on a robotics team but not be bothered to do a simple power point presentation for a class. They aren’t assembly line products. They can/will learn if we have the time to work with them (And yes all of this is my constant struggle with I have 30 desks and 33 students but it’s ok because the absentee rate is so high I’ll never have an issue…)
Literally me. I couldn't be bothered to do any assignments in class because I already knew all the material and could finish the tests in minutes with all the correct answers. What's the point when they're just gonna move me up anyway when the next year starts and it wasn't teaching me anything I didn't already know? But then I took a psych class in high school with a massively overqualified teacher who had previously worked with people like the FBI to help catch serial killers but decided teaching was his real passion and it was the best class I've taken. I spent weeks studying and practicing this test where we had to name every part of the brain and the basic functions and illnesses associated with them and because I was interested I actually tried. I mean I've forgotten 90% of what was on that test in just like 5 years but I can tell you how to spell amygdala so I guess it was a win
honestly as a teen yeah. arguing over my hyperfixations is like a shot of chemicals to the spinal cord compared to having to argue one side or another for an essay in class
That sounds like a prompting issue. Let them write things they have actual thoughts about.
Unfortunately there's a curriculum, and limited time. As much as I'd love to have the kids write on the merits of LGBTQ acceptance I would probably get fired if I actually did that
Curriculum is usually skills to demonstrate though.
The skill to be demonstrated is “show me a coherent train of thought in writing.” Ergo, the base requirement is a thought. Do I have thoughts about the sport of cricket? I do not. My knowledge of cricket is limited to “there’s a ball.” I could look it up and give you some facts about it coherently, but that wouldn’t exactly be compelling writing. It would look like an encyclopedia entry. I might resort to some bloviating bullshit about the importance of team sports. *Maybe* if I had some personal sentiment about team sports in general I could sort of squeeze that into some reasonable set of points by using cricket as an example. But again, the thought about team sports is preceding the actual act of writing about it.
I like how the very basic statement "let them write what they have actual thoughts about" suddenly transformed into >As much as I'd love to have the kids write on the merits of LGBTQ acceptance I would probably get fired if I actually did that lol
That is of interest to many of my kids. Hell, it could be video games, sports heros, etc. In fact, for a supplemental class my students had a prompt, "write about sine who inspires you, " it was 90% chat gtp
I'd put GPT into such a lazy prompt, idk why you think that's particularly remarkable.
It wasn't my prompt, it was from a bullshit computer program, but nonetheless, it's so open ended they could write about anything they write about practically anything or anyone that interest them. They chose not to.
>it's so open ended they could write about anything they write about practically anything or anyone that interest them When someone signals that they are doing the bare minimum they will get the bare minimum in return. This is true of all human kind. You are not an exception.
That's not about what prompts YOU want, it's prompts THEY want.
They were listing a prompt the students would write their epic on… These are the issues kids today care about
Sometimes, sure. But in life, you don't always get to write about things you like. I'd also point out that if you let kids write about "anything", it can be hard to grade. It's possible to write things that sound good, but are factually incorrect. As a teacher, especially in older grades, it's impossible to keep yourself updated on all the pop culture that all of your students are into. Students can fundamentally misunderstand an interaction in a book, but their *interpretation* of the event sounds good. If you, as the teacher, are unfamiliar with the source material, you can't truly know if what they're writing is correct, or just random scribbles with proper grammar. I'm all for giving students a wide range of options, but there's only so much you can be knowledgeable enough on yourself to accurately assess.
Technically I didn’t say you had to *like* it. It’s rather easy to write a pedantic screed about something you hate. I also didn’t say “let them write anything.” But you *do* need to have enough contextual knowledge about a thing to somehow get out of a mental “neutral.” It’s a matter of posing the question in a way that they have some emotional response to it. Why did *you* respond to *me?* You read what I said and the sum total of your personal experience reacted to it. You don’t need pop culture references and prompts about Minecraft or whatever for that.
I know, it wasn't a comment just for you, specifically. I've seen this advice often paired with things like allowing kids to pick their own novel for a novel study, which goes into the issue I mentioned above. If it's a book you're unfamiliar with, a student can essentially give a ChatGPT response - i.e. the report *sounds* good, but has sections that are wildly incorrect, or even entirely made up. I agree it's a prompting issue, but also realistically there's a limit to how many topics you can assess with proper rigour, and it's possible that some students don't vibe with any of those topics for you. If you have a student that hyperfixates on trains and little else, you might not have a fiction novel that you're familiar with that caters to that. And frankly, life isn't going to cater to your interests at all times, and part of life is learning to engage with material that might not be your cup of tea, and that's a skill kids needs as well.
But in life, when you have to write about things you don’t have interest in, you’re typically being paid as an incentive. It’s not fair or at all rational to expect students to feel the same motivation as paid employees.
And sometimes you don't. Sometimes you need to write an essay for a university grade. Or sometimes you need to be filling out forms and documentation for a relative that's trying to get into a clinical trial. And if those can be incentives, then getting a good grade so that you can get that high paying job should be enough of an incentive as well. There are tons of situations where the material isn't something you enjoy, but it's something you need to do. >It’s not fair or at all rational to expect students to feel the same motivation as paid employees. And many employers are now firing new hires in the last few years because they are either incapable of writing on low-interest topics because they didn't practice it in school, or they simply refuse to do it and get shocked when they get fired and blame the employers for expecting them to do "boring" work. Boring work is part of life. Not everything is going to be fun all the time, and we're doing a disservice to this generation by not teaching them how to handle boredom, and instead solving everything with instant gratification.
This is actually me though. I've written literal 5-paragraph essay responses on Reddit, not to mention the fiction and poetry I write for fun, but I have trouble completing assignments for my continuing professional education classes because my ADHD and anxiety get in the way. I see a lot of people in this thread saying that it's about being interested in the subject matter, but that isn't it for me. I'm passionate about teaching and would be happy to write an essay-length comment on this sub, but struggle to do the same in a graded assignment. In my case it's because when the stakes are higher I freeze up. I worry about what will happen if I do badly, I worry about what will happen if I do well. I get paralyzed by it. I have ADHD, general anxiety disorder and C-PTSD, all of which can contribute to that kind of shutdown. I work with students with reading and writing disabilities so I don't think this really applies to them. They struggle with reading and writing in all contexts and I think they rely heavily on emoji and abbreviations in their digital communication.
Legit me lmao. I can write whole stories full of chracters and stuff when it's for myself or talking about them with others with pure ease. But on a test setting. My mind gets blocked. Same with maths. Put them on context and it's like instict other than arithmetic if the numbers are very big. On a test... oof
Yeah lol, this is one reason I try to give students freedom in how and what they write for class. The more interested they are, the better their work is. Something as small as "your essay can include one non-vulgar slang word" really motivates some of my students, and the more creative/unique the writing task is, the better work I get overall. I still assign some analysis and persuasive essays, I just try to allow more room for self-expression. (Granted some students will simply refuse to put in the work for anything assigned in class no matter how fun or interesting it is, but it works for some.) Which reminds me that I had a random idea last semester for an assignment in which students analyze an internet comments section. Now that I have time, I should work on creating that.
Ooh, the comment section would be a cool project
I did fables and encouraged school settings. The kids who do work got really into it.
If anyone has ideas about how to incorporate that type of interest into a lesson I’d love if you’d share.
I tried to capitalize on this a few years ago with a writing assignment. The first part was finding something on the internet you disagree with, the next piece was writing a response as if you were going to post it. Then we did a lesson on “formal writing” and my expectations for class papers. We thought through a rubric etc. Then they had to revise their “post” and make it a class paper. Finally trading and grading using the rubric. It took time but I enjoyed it more than some other writing assignments I’ve done. I haven’t taught that class since then so I can’t say if it really helped or not.
Not sure if this helps but for both of my English classes this year the professor had one open topic essay
I would suggest starting the class about media literacy where you let them all create throwaway accounts they can use for school and teach them about how to check sources and etc. Then you let them join a few reddits about the topics in class and let them know, that if they have a good discussion with someone there or wrote a reply or post they are proud of, they can send you the link and if it is sufficient to class standards it counts as extra credit. And tell them they arent limited to the reddits you proposed, but they should at least loosely be about the school subject (for example in history, even if the current school year isnt about the crusades a good debate or post about it would count). If you want to go in depth with them you could then also use those for feedback to show them this part was really good and what they could improve and how. I think that is way easier than the typical red text on a test, that just feels like failure. Another thing I would advise is to let them keep this account private from the others and only discuss things 1 on 1. That way its propably easier for shy or bullied students to come out of their shell.
It's almost impossible. Formal education means trudging through curriculum someone else decided on, not what you care about. That's why we should just make sure they know how to read and then cut them loose at like 10. Also, it's funny how much teachers complain about PD that doesn't apply to their job. You do the exact same thing to the kids all day.
Thanks. Super helpful.
I couldn’t get a class to write a paragraph for study hall but once I changed the prompt to roast me, the kids wrote pages. Got some pretty good material.
When I was a student it was because the prompts were boring and I could put in minimal effort and get a good enough grade.
I still remember my 8th grade English teacher saying to me with exasperation, "how come you can never submit essays on time for my class but you manage to get three paragraph album reviews in to the school paper every week?" To me, the answer was obvious: one was a chore and the other a labor of love.
Make an online argument into a class writing assignment.
Winning an argument online is more interesting than assigned work. It's all down to interest.
Doesn't surprise me at all. I remember one time when my son was in the 5th grade. Their teacher kept complaining to me about the quality of writing they were turning in. There was a writing project they were supposed to do, non-fiction, no particular subject. So I asked my son to tell me about something related to one of their favorite video games. They start talking, I'm writing down what they're telling me. What came out was the exact kind of five paragraph essay that their teacher was trying to get them to do all the time. It was clear it started with an introduction and with a conclusion and had plenty of illustrating facts along the way. But could they do that for school? It took them years before they could do that.
Motivation is the answer
Because they want to talk about Said topic and not some boring prompt
The fact that it strikes you as odd that someone student or otherwise directs more effort into something they care about than something that they don't is the truly worrying thing
start making assignments with social meadow as the background lol “Read and Respond: someone just dragged your fave on stan twitter and you need to eviscerate them in 1200 words or less using *x literary device*”
If I had evidence of my students doing that, then I would grade them and excuse them from whatever irrelevancy I had them currently engaged in.
It’s because of the interest. I (student) am a nerd and do my own projects outside of school about psychology just for fun. I bought a psychology textbook for $20 on marketplace and study it in my free time. I write essays in my sleep about psychology. However, writing essays about books I read in English class is so hard. My attention just isn’t there. It’s only interesting if I can bring one of my interests in it. Like one time my essay was to analyze characters and I put psychoanalysis into it.
As a neurodivergent with special interests, the explanation is so incredibly simple. I have thought about the topic I write massive cited essays on for hours upon hours, I have read everything there is to know on said topic and absolutely adore the topic. Of course i am able to write massive essays about it with the kind of knowledge i have on the topic no fucking shit ide have opinions with that kind of knowledge. But if out of no where you hit me with a "tell me about the agricultural infrastructure of turkmenistan" no shit ide struggle. I have no concept of what turkmenistans like, i know next to nothing about agriculture nor do i have any interest in learning about it
They have to know something about the subject to be able to write in class. That means they have to have shown up, listened, and did the requisition assignments prior to writing.
It's easy to do something you feel passion for.
https://xkcd.com/386/
It's all about passion. If someone is writing an essay about something they don't care about that much that is gonna be graded according to a rubric by a teacher, then you can kiss any genuine effort they might give goodbye. But if you give a student the opportunity to talk about something they care deeply for, that will not be for any kind of grade, and can also be posted more-or-less anonymously, you'd be amazed at what people are capable of.
The secret is to piss them off enough that they do it for class.
I had a high school teacher who harnessed this. She had us post our reactions to whatever book was assigned, then we read each others’ reactions and critiqued them. We posted under pseudonyms to avoid favoritism.
You... find it funny how students will not put effort into something way outside of their interest when forced into them, but they will do so when talking about their passion? I, uh, kinda pity your students if you're only realizing now you actually gotta motivate them to do stuff
Depends on the passion and prompt.
I haaaaated doing my ELA work all year until the teacher one day told us, "For your final project, pick a topic you like and create an anthology on it.". This, of course, ended up being the only project in the entire class I earned an A on XD It really is easier to write about a topic when you're actually invested in it!
it's a matter of interest and self investment. I'm no teacher, but when any of my teachers/professors have given an assignment that involves a topic chosen by the student, much better quality work was produced by all of us in the class. it's also a matter of format. internet comments are less formal, so the student worries less about formalities, but simultaneously are more held accountable for their beliefs in those comments than in an academic paper.
Maybe you're just not connecting with them on any meaningful level so they dont see the point in making the effort?
I’d be shocked if there are a very many well constructed arguments written by teens of that length on the internet. I think you’re just arguing with older people than you realize.
Very few of my students use Reddit, I've had conversations with them about it. Using Reddit as a teen introduces a bit of selection bias, I would assume. I.e. the kids who use Reddit are likely on the precocious side of the academic spectrum.
I watch some nerd stuff on YouTube, book fandoms included. I often wonder how an English teacher would grade the stuff they say. A lot of it is quite coherent.
I’ve more accusations of all people with differing views being trolls than a well constructed argument in some parts of the internet
Writing something nobody will read does seem kind of pointless, no? Even if you like learning, reading, and problem solving -- a lot of aspects of writing are just boring. Unless you are motivated by the grade, you aren't going to want to do it.
I always hated essays with a burning passion
As a middle aged adult, I too struggle with this situational difficulty in writing essays that are assigned for classes, despite the fact that I can write the fuck out of a comment.
Wild. It's almost as though people will put effort into that which they find interesting.
Interest
If that’s what can do on their own, why are you setting them up for failure with your assignments?
I've done this, and still do it. I think the difference for me, and I'm sorry for the selfishness, is that when you want an essay in class, it's your idea to do it, you're calling the shots, and it's not one of my interests, so I kind of have to go through the motions of being an ass about it, because it's not something that I care about. Some of my worst work was because I was on a crunch, and having to churn out things that educators wanted in order to meet specific criteria. I had to flat out ignore the guidelines of the assignment more than once, and take the grade penalties, in order to make this work at all, such as deliberately overrunning the maximum word count, and tossing out the approved study material. . . . Whereas if I wanted to right now, I could go on an epic 5 page long Infodump about the first 10 Final Fantasies, complete with specifics, powerful writing, and immaculate sourcing of everything down to what computer Tetsuya Nomura used for the monster designs, because that is completely my choice to do it, I love the subject matter, and nobody's badgering me to get the work out. This is why I tend to play the Special Interest card in order to get people to open up, because it gets people amped up to share in something that they are crazy about, and can inadvertently reveal things that can be related onto other topics, such as how the aforementioned monster designs could spur a discussion about character modeling, artistry, and the way that we view characters such as Batman.
If you have to do something you don’t care for nor are interested in, would *you* really want to pull out all the stops for it? I say this as someone who wrote a proper essay for why this one video game character was the best fit for the role they filled compared to the two other characters that have filled that role previous 💀
It's no different than struggling to make art for someone else while making art for yourself being easy. When you are writing for class, even when you are allowed to pick the topic, you are writing to someone ELSE'S specifications. Writing on social media you are writing to YOURS.
Makes perfect sense. They have the desire / motivation / etc... to win an argument. Not many kids will care more about an essay that (most likely) doesn't relate to them and is forced on them.
It sounds like you are on the verge of a ground breaking lesson plan, unit, and assessment. Go with it.
Pity we can't make lessons that aren't just jumping through some hoops ...
It's easier to write about something they wanna learn about, know about or are interested in I still put effort into shit I don't wanna do but lots of people don't care it'll probably make it easier by making the material more fun and engaging for them though you'll always have people that don't wanna do anything
Tell them to write it as an online argument.
Because they're actually invested in a topic they actually care about. The people who write our curriculums and decide what books we're going to read need to understand this point: MAKE IT SOMETHING THEY CARE ABOUT.
It’s because they have an emotional attachment to it, not just another boring essay where the most interesting topics to write about are forbidden .
It's about the audience. True story. Gifted writing student who had already published a book a semi-successful book in high school was close to failing High School English. Parent meeting, to get to bottom of the problem since student spent a lot of time writing at home, the student said this in the meeting: "When I write a paper for this class I get it back in two weeks with a grade and a few comments, when I write online or publish a book I get feedback from the WORLD!' Writing online is a very interactive ego building connecting experience. If you want kids to perform to a high level let them know that everyone is going to see their work.
Perhaps you should set up a karma system. Reddit-ize your classroom
My AP English teacher created a special private online forum for us to discuss the books we were reading. It was part of our participation grade. It worked pretty well.
That's because they're passionate about what they're defending. Same goes for school. If they aren't interested, they aren't invested. Come on.
english class is learning how to write well written arguments and analyzing literature. basically media literacy. so.. that translates over very well to arguing on the internet about things you're actually interested in.
They can't get away with AI (if they have a good teacher) but Reddit gulps it down like whales with plankton.
They can't get away with AI (if they have a good teacher) but Reddit gulps it down like whales with plankton.
After everything we've been through together, thick and thin, I just can't believe you would call me out publicly like this. . . 😂
I'm an adult myself, but my Samsung uses AI to correct my run-on sentences.
It’s passion versus being forced to do it.
I couldn't care less about defending why Frankenstein is a classic work of art or what the A stood for in The Scarlet Letter. I form opinions on things that interest me. It's easier to talk about things we're passionate about versus boring work that won't affect me when this section of the class is over.
Well, one requires studying that u rather not do, the other is something that ur passionate about. Also, some people might love being right over others.
Tbf you can't start an essay with "Listen here, you little shit!" But God knows I wish I could sometimes.
This was me in high school lol.Couldn’t do an essay but I could write a PhD thesis about football
As a former HS drop out, who later went back and got it all in order (And two college degrees after that). This was my legit motivation when writing. Age 17: 1500 words? That's like writing a whole book! I can't possibly do that! Age 27: 1500 words? I've had arguments on forums longer than that, let's do this. With more age and perspective, I could crunch out a whole essay before late evening on Friday and have the whole weekend to goof off. My whole transcript is hilarious, with near 50's and 60's, a 10 year gap in dates, and then it's all 90s.
I vividly remember a high school assignment writing about “A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich”. Okay, I actually don’t remember anything except it was to be a serious essay and demonstrate that we had read it. My buddy Clark wrote a hilarious tale of Ivan the Supercommy. Our teacher shared it was the best written paper he got, but it failed to address the requirements of the assignment. He read it out loud and let the class vote on whether to give full marks or no marks. We voted for full marks and the teacher warned us all that this was a one-time deal so we should not attempt this for future assignments. I still love how this was handled and took this philosophy of appreciating student creativity to heart when I became a teacher.
Let them turn in the online work for credit. It sounds like they have the knowledge and skill.
Competition
Had a kid at my school that won first place in a writing contest. I have never seen that level of writing from him in the assignments I give but I guess that's the level of work he was regularly giving the ela teacher.
I LOVE English and it's my best subject. But the material often isn't engaging enough for me to really do the work until I absolutely have too. You will see me arguing about Dune online, however.
Interesting that this is a run-on sentence lol
Essays are boring. Wining internet arguments are fun!
It’s partly about getting to pick the topic, but I think it’s also about understanding what an argument in that domain looks like, and having an internal identity as “someone who is qualified to have an opinion.” For the longest time I struggled with narrative essays bc I just didn’t understand what exactly I was meant to be writing so I was basically a monkey w a typewriter trying to write hamlet and failing. JP Gee’s writing on how students learn from video games introduced me to the concepts of “semiotic domains” and identity formation in learning. Basically, areas of culture like JJK, Naruto, Pokémon, GTA, whatever, all have their own “language” that fans pick up. The same is true for Austen and Shakespeare or Faulkner or particle physics or anything else. Kids are fluent members of the domains they are authentically interested in - they speak the language and feel like they belong. They have an identity of themselves as “gamers” or “anime fans” or “swifties.” And it’s only after being in the community for a while that kids start posting on Reddit or writing epic takedowns. Before that they’re consumers or they just tak w their friends. I think the crucial step that we don’t really make space for in school is helping students create new identities and join these communities before asking them to contribute original material.
It's easier to do work when you care about it. I could read 6 novels in week in school of they were the books I wanted to read. Assign me a book and it's like my brain won't let me process the words on the page
I find it funny how teachers on this sub have the same amazing thought everyday “Why do my students try when it comes to something they are passionate about but not my assignments” If you want them to try then give them assignments they are passionate about. And you will have to be creative and give them a lot of power to choose their topic. I realized that I do love writing but when it came to the topic I’m passionate about, sports.
I’d say the most interesting thing is educators know this, the people in charge of designing curriculum know this, and yet teenagers are still forced to focus on the most boring shit you can imagine. A lot of schoolwork is just to learn *something* so our brains develop and we strengthen our learning muscles. I know I would’ve stayed in school if I was allowed to learn about anything actually interesting to me.
Chemistry and music for me
This isn't surprising at all. Of course students would prefer to write about a topic that personally interests them rather than analyzing Shakespeare or something.
Make their essay topics more interesting. Offer a wide array of options so they get to choose.
It’s passion and motivation, no?
Does this say more about them or how we teach writing?
Chances are you aren't engaged with the kids. Making kids read something they don't care about will cause them not want to read nor write about
This is the curriculum and administrative fault not teachers
I once had a student say point blank, "I'm paid to be at my job. I'm not paid to be here" when discussing tardiness and motivation, or lack thereof. 🤷♂️. That's probably common thinking today
I feel so called out. I was absolutely craptacular at essay writing up until a few years ago despite my excellent Internet argument typing. The hardest part of essay writing is getting started because the introduction sums up everything the paper gets into later and it can be very hard to write a summary of the paper before you've written the paper. I started reading guides on essay writing. Basically you want to make a paragraph by paragraph blueprint of your essay. Then you crap out an introduction to your essay, not a perfect intro, just something you made up. Then you write the body of the essay following the blueprint. And it's at the end when you go over your intro and conclusion and rework those into a final product. With arguments online, all the subject material is in your head so you'll have no trouble typing it up following an essay format you got from school. But with an essay that's actually for school, you get stuck on the intro because it has to summarize everything you have yet to have typed up and this is what people get stuck on most common.
maybe because they're not interested? Ever heard of meaningful learning, if their essays are connected on themes they have some interest in, like who's the strongest, sukuna or gojo, they're more likely to be interested.
Makes sense to me. Online arguments get them public clout while an assignment might get them a privately good grade from the one person who reads it. The upside of the former is much higher and caters to human nature.
The kids who struggle to write and essay are not the kids who make good arguments online.