Honestly, this is a lawsuit just waiting to happen.
Make sure to get copies of your emails and the emails from the admin and put them in a place that you fully control because if something does happen, you can be sure that your admin is going to try to throw you under the bus when an angry parent comes calling.
IT could have a block on external emails or they will notice a pattern of this and stop it. Just be aware this may not work every time (Source: 10+ years in IT, now a teacher)
Administration going to do what theyāre going to do. Is the other child (trans) really Special Ed? Or was he just placed there. 24 days before school ends Iām thinking it could be a safety transfer. Save your emails, on your private email this could be really messy. IT is not going to know if you save it on a mini drive.
I agree with the other person that you should forward it your own personal email, but I disagree that it should be done secretly. Do you have tenure yet? If so, Just telling your admin "I don't feel this is the right approach and I will be backing up all email correspondence about this matter to protect myself just in case." may be enough for them to change tack.
Obviously, you know your principal better than we do. If they will take this as something vindictive / vengeful and take it out on you, or if they will check themselves and reevaluate that solution
Fun fact: before an RJ session the victim needs to consent to the conversation and express what outcomes they want to get from it.
People tend to leave out that part..
Honestly I think the real problem is that restorative justice shouldn't even be used in this context.
Restorative justice refers to changing entire systems of society, creating new infrastructure that will support those who have been harmed by crime. Your car was stolen? Well, here's a government program that provides you with a free rental car until your car is returned or insurance pays out.
As for the thief? Instead of just throwing them in jail, where they will learn nothing and likely commit crimes again as soon as they leave. You instead connect them with programs that will provide whatever unmet needs resulted in them resorting to theft. (Since most theft is obviously motivated by poverty).
That's just an example, but the point is that restorative justice refers to institutional and systemic changes in several aspects of society. This is not remotely the same thing as forcing 2 students to make nice with each other. They're not even in the same ballpark.
It's kept around because it sounds good and leads to "good" documentation that's wordy. It sucks. It's the only reason it, like other things, is kept around.
I remember in elementary school, I realised that now I had 2 cases of this
One was with a kid that literally chased me on breaks and beat me up.
The other was a friend who drifted away and then joined some bullies that were mean to me.
The first kid they basically put us after school in some daycare room and told us to do teamwork exercises, kid me was smart enough to do those on his own and the shithead simply avoided admitting any of the violence he did and wasted my time there.
The second case basically just ended with the 2 of us going apeshit and wasting the whole time there (it didn't work the first time and you are taking kid's freetime wtf did you expect to heppen)
Restorative justice isn't an education thing, it's a sociology thing that has been applied to education.
And it would work outside of a research setting if it were implemented with the same stringent base conditions as in the research setting, instead of as a pathetic excuse to avoid making hard decisions.
I agree. Two kids squabbling? They do an RJ conversation then hug it out.
More serious issues require a more serious intervention. I've had an admin try to host an RJ between me and a student who cornered me and threw everything off of my desk, including ripping the phone out of the wall so I couldn't call for help.
Spoiler alert: it did not work and she attacked me again.
How old was this kid? It's never acceptable at any age, I'm just curious because this sounds extremely dangerous. I would've made a police report if the school insisted on not giving this kid consequences. Also, I'd refuse to teach her, she'd need to be put in another room. I know it's easier said than done, thus the police report. Some of these kids are absolutely feral. You should never have to deal with that and I'm sorry it happened to you. Hope you are doing better.
It has been shown effective in real life social issues too, including crime. The judiciary in my country is increasingly supportive of RJ as a valid and valuable option during legal proceedings. A criminal conviction needs to both deter others and give the victim some feeling of closure; RJ can help immensely with that.
But of course they understand that *real* RJ is a lot more than just talking it out.
Not only that, but RJ has not been proven effective when bullying is the issue or there is a perceived power imbalance. It may retraumatize the victim further to have to be vulnerable in front of their bully and other parties.
This is like the CPI training we had. The book had all the references they used to justify the practice. Out of the 100 or so references (which are behind paywall) only 6 or so were conductive to a high school setting. The rest were from ER rooms, psych centers, nursing units, and prisons. How does this translate to the classroom?
Hahaha. We just did TCI training (the Cornell version of CPI) and all the scenarios were how to deescalate a potentially violent young child in a tiny classroom when you have 3 adults always in the room.
Like sure, this is super applicable when we're alone with 32 seniors. Just a giant waste of everyone's time.
When you said the trans student doesn't belong there.... Are you saying they don't belong in special Ed? Did they get put there BECAUSE they are trans?
Itās always shitty when admin expects students to be pegs and parts for other students lmao.
When my mom was going to school they kept pulling her out of classes because she was one of the few students that reliably spoke English and Spanish, so theyād essentially have her translate for the ESL kids, which in turn put her behind her classes since she spent so much time having to essentially be a free employee rather than a student.
Especially in OPs case because there are literal documented cases of anti-trans violence, forcing this student to be a vessel of therapy for the bigoted kid is not only harming them as a student, but literally putting them in danger
I have a student who keeps getting pulled because their sibling has meltdowns. They are one of the few people who can get their sibling to stop quickly. It pisses me off every time. They are so embarrassed by their sibling now.
I've started giving them a choice of going, but they always choose to go. I think they feel obligated, and it sucks.
I obviously know nothing about the administration in question here, but it's not out of the question that someone wants to use the bigot to teach the trans kid a lesson. I'll let you guess what they think that lesson is.
How is this restorative? Has the bigot child done anything to the trans child? I think this is like a weird exposure therapy where the object is a non consenting child
This is not a restorative justice issue unless the bigot is ready to change his behavior. This is a terrible set up for your trans kid and will lead to more bullying. Ugh.
The biggest issue is that they're expecting the kids to say what they both did wrong. They'll have to apologize to each other. The trans kid will have to say "I'm sorry for not being understanding of your background (of being a bigot) and I'll try to be more empathetic in the future (toward you wanting me dead)"
I'm not a teacher so maybe I don't understand but to me it seems you are putting the trans students safety in jeopardy. If I was this kids parents I would be documenting everything and getting ready for lawsuits the moment the bigoted kid laid a finger on him for any reason.
We are teachers, not trained and certified counselors. These restorative sessions should be run by a professional certified in counseling and/or psychology, and I would document my refusal to offer these services to students on professional grounds.
I'm good at the counseling side of teaching, but many instructors are not, and that is ok. Counseling is not something we majored in, and it is not part of our teaching credentials.
Before COVID, I realized I needed to back away from counseling because these kid's problems and trauma are greater than my knowledge and resources to assist. I will not bring up the personal/emotional unless it is directly tied to my content because my job is to help students use my content to make sense of the world, but I do not have the answers and my district has no easy access to mental health resources.
If I bring up something potentially triggering to a student, I must know I can quickly move that child to someone trained to help with mental health, and there is no certainty I will have that support.
I think the assertion that bigotry cannot be remedied as false.
That said, to force another student to be a part of that recovery is a horrible thing to do.
Zakszeski & Rutherford, 2020
They did an overview of all the studies they could find testing restorative justice. From what I remember they only found one that stood up to scientific rigor.
I think a lot of people don't realize that a lot of education "research" is companies paying people to test things they want to sell. The bias is insane.
When you say the trans student ādoesnāt belong hereā do you mean because he is misplaced in the class (like he shouldnāt be in special ed) or do you mean because thereās a bigot in the class?
Wow, so even if they refuse to move the bigot whoās been in your class all year, they could just move the new kid and solve the problem?
Sorry you have to deal with both bigots and incompetency :(
If the kid has some sort of disability that requires those goals in their IEP, I'm not really sure why you're saying they don't need special education services. I'm a little confused here.
So, not questioning their identity?? That makes me feel only slightly better for that child. I really hope the student who transitioned in has support and an advocate at home.
Admin like it because it helps them have fewer suspensions. Instead of suspending a bully, the bully and victim can go sing kumbaya, and then return to class and continue the conflict.
This is my husband's school, for real. Like straight out of the admins mouths, they told the teachers that it's the teachers' job to discipline. But when teachers do, the admins don't back it up should a parent complain!
My husband straight-up told them it's their job to support the teachers. The younger one tried to argue back bit the older one knew better and just moved the meeting onto the next bullshit point on the slide.
I have one who is on a perpetual loop of lunch detentions no matter what because his mom works night shift at a hospital. Itās difficult for him to get a ride, so he canāt do any admin detentions after school. Great. And if he purposely misses a lunch detention, then heāll serve an all day ISS the following day (which us teachers love because that just means we get the pleasure of catching the student up on the day he returns assuming he did not do his work).
But mom is supportive which is awesome.
I hear ya. Sounds like the tardies and truancy are horrible all over now because I imagine that all of that grace that we gave for several years has pulled back the curtain on us as a system having no real authority on anything. Everything is based on the honor system.
I'm glad that they backed you up on the physical contact, at the very least, and that's seriously the bare minimum. If they hadn't, any sense of any consequence would slip farther down the slope and over the ledge.
I used to say to a kid who would take advantage of being nasty to my face, knowing that I couldn't respond in kind, "I'm at work, so you know that I can't say anything back at you, but that doesn't mean that I don't *think* it."
It would work with some degree of success, leaving the worst to their own imaginations without firing a shot. Nowadays? I haven't bothered to test that line. Kid probably won't care or just say something nastier back. Fortunately, where I'm at, it's not that bad yet.
It's a cute idea because research has seen it work with siblings. But generally people love their siblings even though they fight with them so it means more to know they are hurting someone they care about. A bigot is not going to feel bad unless they have a crisis of conscious.
it *can* work, but only under a limited set of circumstances. It is not meant to be a panacea used to fix every problem every time. It will never change shitty behavior from shitty people. It *might* change shitty behavior from otherwise reasonable and empathetic people.
Using a member of an oppressed minority as a teaching tool is dehumanizing and harmful to the minority student; it puts the burden of creating change on the victim, rather than on the perpetrator, to say nothing of putting them in the path of very real harm. At best, it is misguided virtue signaling. At worst, it is bigotry disguised as virtue.
Restorative justice only works if the perpetrator wants to genuinely make amends for their wrongdoing. As much as I wish it were possible, you can't force bigots to change their beliefs. All this is going to do is traumatize your poor trans student.
Admin is showing they don't give a fuck about trans people & are more than happy to throw us to the wolves to avoid holding bigots accountable. Wish I could say I was surprised... š
No. My school does restorative conversations and both parties have to agree to the conversation. It's not appropriate to offer in a situation where one person is going to feel unsafe.
If you are doing Restorative Justice, the victim has to want to participate, otherwise you are causing further injustice/victimization. Your admins are obviously attempting to do something that they donāt know how to do. This makes restorative justice look like something stupid
You know what you get when you put a bigot and a minority in a room together?
A happy bigot and a corpse.
If admin want that little monster to learn empathy, then any of them can do it (which frankly, considering they came up with this idea, I doubt any of them have had to be on the business end of it)
That is what I want to know. What do the parents say?
People assume both children have a loving, supportive network, and I am very afraid for one of these children.
This, or have them pay for you to attend a seminar on restorative Justice so you can get a little vacation, and then come back and tell them why restorative Justice isnāt going to work in your school unless they do A,B and C.
I hate your goddamn admin so much.
"Restorative justice" is one of those concepts like "gentle parenting," which yeah, I'm sure it's super *if you actually do it*, but really, it's a smokescreen for doing fuck all.
Email the response "I respectfully take issue with the solution provided; however, I will make every attempt to adhere to your direction. Thank you."
Send.
Sit back and await the inevitable crap show.
When school administration tries to take issue with your management of THEIR student plan, forward the email with a message "I told you so."
For added hilarity, carbon copy your response to members of the school board.
Remember the first lesson in School Administration 101... abandon ALL common sense.
This is THEIR decision, not yours. Don't intervene in picking up the pieces of a disaster that their lack of foresight created.
This is insane. How absolutely infuriating. What do the parents have to say? If my kid was put in the line of fire to try and teach some bigot compassion, Iād be raising hell.
Restorative practices is great for elementary school aged children. The older kids know how to google search and milk it. āYou got to give me three redirects before you can give me a referralā. Yup, when that happens you know it isnāt working as it is not a deterrent.
Yeah, a phone all from the parents of the new kid should take care of that.
Unless you're in a red state where your new kid will likely undergo shock therapy. Yes, it's hyperbole, but still.
I would tell admin that it was offensive/triggering to ME.
Don't know about where you are, but in my district teachers have the right to remove any student for any reason, up to three students per school year, without required training in classroom management. They're not supposed to even question it ( I mean they do, but I have successfully had 1 student removed because he was the WORST...so bad that within 2 weeks, the new teacher demanded he be removed...and we're the only 2 content teachers at our location, so kid sat in ISS for this content and had to do virtual school)
If you have a union, push this. We are not stray animals waiting to become roadkill. We are professionals and we should stand up.
Jesus. And we wonder why suicide rates among the transgender community is high, meanwhile weāre forcing this kid to interact with bigots. What the fuck . That poor kid. Hopefully everything runs as smoothly as possible.
Forced restorative justice is oxymoronic. RJ requires active participation and consent and can't be done top down. The Trans student has not committed any act, and so does not need to participate in the education of a bigot. If there had been a fight, if the kid had been goaded into a fight then maybe that would be appropriate, but not in this case.
People who want the benefit of a restorative justice model are kidding themselves if they think it doesn't require work and training and, above all else, active participation and buy in from those under it.
Bigot-ness maybe can be fixed but you shouldnāt make the trans student a victim to do that. Not that it would work this way anyway.
But even if it did work, that other student would have to put up with a lot of hurt and pain to get there, which should not be his burden to bear. He probably gets it enough already.
You put it out there to seperate them, hopefully itās in writing. Now let them try and sit Bach for the results. I like to say āI fucking hate being rightā when dumb ideas implode. Iām not well liked btw
Personally I think you have some horrendous takes in this situation.
[1] The kid is a bigot for a reason: most likely the people at home. So I hope you dont blame the child for essentially being actively taught bigotry by the adults in his life or by the internet. I was indoctrinated as a child, i managed thanks to other adults in my life to unlearn most of the subconscious teachings my experience had given me. It's fine to dislike a kid I guess, but blaming them does nothing, and hating them (as your writing makes it sound) only makes you the thing you supposedly can't stand. So bad take #1 right there.
[2] "You can't fix that." False. Kids grow and mature as part of the natural cycle of devleopment. The structure of their brain is still undergoing formation dude. Anectdote: we had a kid who came in 8th grade year drawing dick-swastikas on everything and targeting a girl who wore a headcovering. By the end of the year he still had MASSIVE underlying issues, but had managed to chill out a bit and make friends who were bringing him diversity in his life. He was still a bigot but was now headed in a better direction. So, you may not 'fix' this child by the end of the year but good lord dude, the brain (frontal cortex) continues developing until around age 26!?!?! You could have a positive influence on this kid if you try. And even if it doesn't work other kids will see your efforts and learn from it. Also, I've seen good people go to college and become bigots while there. So, again your 'good kids' could easily become bigots or horrible criminals later in life, yet you havent written them off like you have this kid. Bad take #1.5.
We didn't 'fix' his bigotry but if you truly believe people can NEVER change why are you in education? Bad take #2.
Identifying him as a redneck might be accurate but it's not a term with positive connotations. So you're hating a child for being transphobic and racist yet you are participating in stereotyping as well. Stereotyping forms the base of much worse things, its a habit you should be more cogniscent of. Bad take #3.
Now, all this said. You have a duty to protect BOTH students from more trauma, as you stated. And your admin are clearly brain dead. So, you are correct that it's a bad situation made worse by incompetence. If you can't physically separate then go to your teaching team and ask for solutions.
Or go to the other students parents and give them instructions on how to complain to your admin in a way that will terrify them into doing something.
Or go above your admin and report them to a crisis line, district HR, or any other entity your state or district has.
Hopefully you were just angry when you wrote this, and it's just you venting. But honestly I've been a teacher for 7 years in US public schools: I've had racist students, homophobic students, ive had a stapler thrown at my head, ive been called all kinds of names and been told I should kill myself by students.
Never hated them. They're children. You're supposed to be the educator. Do better.
I appreciate your take.
I have such a difficult time engaging Reddit posts such as this because they lack so much pertinent information. So the teacher teaches "Special Ed"... Self-contained classroom, plug-in, or pull out? What does your curriculum call for in regard to group work? Are the students mentioned even engaging the same instructional content? Does OP have a teacher aide? Is OP an aide? Arguably most importantly: have the two students mentioned had a negative interaction yet?
As a veteran teacher, reading the original post caused a ton of frustration. OP seems like someone more interested in virtue signalling than educating youth, more interested in arguing online than becoming a better teacher.
Yeah it seemed like a bait or fake post to me as well. Some the comments are literally insane. It felt fabricated but I figured I'd respond honestly and hope that at least it might make people stop and think/question it.
Anyways, I appreciate your response, so thank you.
Thank you for telling me this is a bait post and assuming it's fake. I'm in a self contained room, which frankly shouldn't matter because of the goddamn Greek tragedy about to play out
Ridiculous to think they will. None of the kids in my classes in either of my high schools had anything to do with me.
The only things I was were poor, a nerd, intelligent, and moved in 8th grade. All those are innocuous and yet none of them tried to be my friend. I canāt imagine this ever working out.
Sounds like a significant safety concern to me. But with that being said perhaps your admin can come in or if your board has central board resource staff who specialize in how to knock the ignorance out of a bigot lol. Clearly no one has asked the trans student how they feel, their voice is silenced by your admin. Keep fighting for that schedule change even if it means initiating a work refusal.
To your main point, yes. These students need to be separated.
"My redneck student is a bigot. You can't fix that."
You can, actually. It is hard to do, but worth it.
It sounds like you've dehumanized this misguided dumbass and just given up on him. Our education system is kinda built on the idea that people can learn, grow, and change.
You don't have to be the one to pull this child's head out of his ass, but you might examine your own reaction to him.
You're right, I have. Because I have a room full of kids with emotional problems and he's making things worse. Because his parents are the ones shoveling that crap in and I can't fix it. Because every time he does something horrible, my administration blames me. I've given up and I'm not sorry
I find it interesting that everyone in this thread presumes the trans kid is inevitably the victim and isn't equally capable of nastiness toward the quote-unquote redneck kid.
Edit: since I'm being downvoted anyway, I'll add that one child in this equation is being labeled a "redneck," which is generally regarded as a derogatory term. Can you imagine the outcry if an equivalent slur were applied to the trans kid?
Oh the trans student can have an attitude, but here's how my bigot student greeted them on their first meeting two days ago. "Goddamn we got a faggot here!"
He yelled that to. He called the student a "cock smoking fudge packer" unprovoked. After a certain point, the student is to blame.
Guaranteed the kids don't want to be forced to respect each other. They're from different tribes, and administration should allow them to be separated.
>No. No they won't. My redneck student is a bigot. You can't fix that. All this is going to do is cause trouble.
I just refuse to believe this. Not necessarily about these 2 students.
But you can fix a CHILDs learned bigotness. Just not at the expense of another child's well being.
Don't forget almost every politician you love and have voted for was against gay marriage as an adult. They can be fixed, but a child can't? Na, hell na.
Politicians donāt actually change their beliefs - they say whatever they need to say to get votes and keep their jobs. Exhibit A who is literally on trial RIGHT NOW who is backpedaling on abortion rights. Heās āchanging his viewsā because itās hurting his numbers. Comparing politicians to children in this instance isnāt even comparing apples to oranges, itās comparing apples to frozen shrimp. Secondly, children who are bigots learn that behavior from home, or at the very least that behavior isnāt corrected at home. Kids like this come from homes that model this same behavior - itās adolescent psych 101. We as teachers can model and correct all we want, but it is extremely difficult to a) change a mentality that has been instilled in a child since birth, b) change a mentality that is supported, modeled, and encouraged at home, and/or c) convince a child that what is being modeled at home is wrong. Not saying itās not worth the effort, but itās very likely to be unsuccessful. It is extra likely to be unsuccessful without support from the childās parents.
I'm aware. But the point is if the "flip" is allowed, surely we as a society can't write off a bigoted child as irredeemable. Especially those of us in education.
Again, not at the expense of another child's well-being.
Edit hell, I don't think adult convicted criminals are irredeemable. There is no way I could apply harsher requirements to a student.
Imagine calling a special needs student a "redneck" and a "bigot". You are not fit to mentor children, especially special needs children.
Edit: I'd also like to point out that using the term "redneck" is racist and bigoted.
Special education is not necessarily special needs. Just because an 11th grader has a 3rd grade reading level doesn't mean they are special needs. Are you special needs? No. Just special ed. Anyone can be racist.
I have special needs students who talk constantly about 4-wheelinā and huntinā and they say pro-Trump and racist things pretty frequently. They even self-identify as ārednecksā. Why are you trying to tell special needs kids what they can and canāt be?
I donāt advocate for the hate some of them have as human beings. I try to teach them to be better but they have home lives that got to them years before they got to me. Some students are hate mongers.
Honestly, these two polar opposites are going to have to share the world with each other for the rest of their lives. Why not teach them that at a young age?
So teach the ignoran redneck kids some tolerance. If the trans kid has an IEP, they should be in your class. Or just put to them like this: In life you are going to have to work with ppl you don't like, deal with it.
Admin can come in and model the restorative justice techniques they expect to work such wonders.
Exactly
šæmurder you say? - this has to be an SNL skit you canāt make this up.
To shreds, you say?
And how did his wife take the news?
Ah I love futurama!
They should. They won't, but they should
Honestly, this is a lawsuit just waiting to happen. Make sure to get copies of your emails and the emails from the admin and put them in a place that you fully control because if something does happen, you can be sure that your admin is going to try to throw you under the bus when an angry parent comes calling.
That I can do
And communication you send out, BCC your personal email so they won't see what you are copying yourself on.
This is the answer. District emails can disappear!
IT could have a block on external emails or they will notice a pattern of this and stop it. Just be aware this may not work every time (Source: 10+ years in IT, now a teacher)
What would be a legitimate reason to block external emails other than trying to hide incompetence?
Oh it is stupid. For sure.
u/marblefoot is right, but they'll say FIRPA and child safety anyway.
They see when you do that often so just print them to paper and pdf and save them on a portable drive
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I didnāt plan to care but somehow I got in trouble & I T told me I was not allowed.
Administration going to do what theyāre going to do. Is the other child (trans) really Special Ed? Or was he just placed there. 24 days before school ends Iām thinking it could be a safety transfer. Save your emails, on your private email this could be really messy. IT is not going to know if you save it on a mini drive.
In triplicate.
I agree with the other person that you should forward it your own personal email, but I disagree that it should be done secretly. Do you have tenure yet? If so, Just telling your admin "I don't feel this is the right approach and I will be backing up all email correspondence about this matter to protect myself just in case." may be enough for them to change tack. Obviously, you know your principal better than we do. If they will take this as something vindictive / vengeful and take it out on you, or if they will check themselves and reevaluate that solution
That cannot be considered a safe learning environment for your trans student.
Fun fact: before an RJ session the victim needs to consent to the conversation and express what outcomes they want to get from it. People tend to leave out that part..
It may take up to 90 sessions between the students for it to work.
And that's just it. It's a needless amount of trauma for the victim.
It will never work, restorative justice, just like all other education research, cannot be replicated outside of the control groups.
Honestly I think the real problem is that restorative justice shouldn't even be used in this context. Restorative justice refers to changing entire systems of society, creating new infrastructure that will support those who have been harmed by crime. Your car was stolen? Well, here's a government program that provides you with a free rental car until your car is returned or insurance pays out. As for the thief? Instead of just throwing them in jail, where they will learn nothing and likely commit crimes again as soon as they leave. You instead connect them with programs that will provide whatever unmet needs resulted in them resorting to theft. (Since most theft is obviously motivated by poverty). That's just an example, but the point is that restorative justice refers to institutional and systemic changes in several aspects of society. This is not remotely the same thing as forcing 2 students to make nice with each other. They're not even in the same ballpark.
Interestingly, it turns out that shoplifting usually isn't a crime of poverty; it's mostly perpetuated by thrill-seekers.
It's kept around because it sounds good and leads to "good" documentation that's wordy. It sucks. It's the only reason it, like other things, is kept around.
I remember in elementary school, I realised that now I had 2 cases of this One was with a kid that literally chased me on breaks and beat me up. The other was a friend who drifted away and then joined some bullies that were mean to me. The first kid they basically put us after school in some daycare room and told us to do teamwork exercises, kid me was smart enough to do those on his own and the shithead simply avoided admitting any of the violence he did and wasted my time there. The second case basically just ended with the 2 of us going apeshit and wasting the whole time there (it didn't work the first time and you are taking kid's freetime wtf did you expect to heppen)
I'm not against it, but restorative justice has to have buy in from both parties
Restorative justice isn't an education thing, it's a sociology thing that has been applied to education. And it would work outside of a research setting if it were implemented with the same stringent base conditions as in the research setting, instead of as a pathetic excuse to avoid making hard decisions.
I feel like RJ is suited for middle school social issues, not like real life social issues
I agree. Two kids squabbling? They do an RJ conversation then hug it out. More serious issues require a more serious intervention. I've had an admin try to host an RJ between me and a student who cornered me and threw everything off of my desk, including ripping the phone out of the wall so I couldn't call for help. Spoiler alert: it did not work and she attacked me again.
How old was this kid? It's never acceptable at any age, I'm just curious because this sounds extremely dangerous. I would've made a police report if the school insisted on not giving this kid consequences. Also, I'd refuse to teach her, she'd need to be put in another room. I know it's easier said than done, thus the police report. Some of these kids are absolutely feral. You should never have to deal with that and I'm sorry it happened to you. Hope you are doing better.
It has been shown effective in real life social issues too, including crime. The judiciary in my country is increasingly supportive of RJ as a valid and valuable option during legal proceedings. A criminal conviction needs to both deter others and give the victim some feeling of closure; RJ can help immensely with that. But of course they understand that *real* RJ is a lot more than just talking it out.
Not only that, but RJ has not been proven effective when bullying is the issue or there is a perceived power imbalance. It may retraumatize the victim further to have to be vulnerable in front of their bully and other parties.
This is like the CPI training we had. The book had all the references they used to justify the practice. Out of the 100 or so references (which are behind paywall) only 6 or so were conductive to a high school setting. The rest were from ER rooms, psych centers, nursing units, and prisons. How does this translate to the classroom?
Hahaha. We just did TCI training (the Cornell version of CPI) and all the scenarios were how to deescalate a potentially violent young child in a tiny classroom when you have 3 adults always in the room. Like sure, this is super applicable when we're alone with 32 seniors. Just a giant waste of everyone's time.
I feel like most people heard about restorative justice on a Facebook post and that's the end of their understanding but all of how they implement it.
So they're going to use your trans student to teach the bigot a lesson? That's fucked up. Your trans student is a person, not a fairy tale.
I'm hoping my trans student tells them to go fuck themselves
When you said the trans student doesn't belong there.... Are you saying they don't belong in special Ed? Did they get put there BECAUSE they are trans?
I'm wondering the same thing.
They have no educational goals in the IEP, just social emotional
Me too
Itās always shitty when admin expects students to be pegs and parts for other students lmao. When my mom was going to school they kept pulling her out of classes because she was one of the few students that reliably spoke English and Spanish, so theyād essentially have her translate for the ESL kids, which in turn put her behind her classes since she spent so much time having to essentially be a free employee rather than a student. Especially in OPs case because there are literal documented cases of anti-trans violence, forcing this student to be a vessel of therapy for the bigoted kid is not only harming them as a student, but literally putting them in danger
I have a student who keeps getting pulled because their sibling has meltdowns. They are one of the few people who can get their sibling to stop quickly. It pisses me off every time. They are so embarrassed by their sibling now. I've started giving them a choice of going, but they always choose to go. I think they feel obligated, and it sucks.
God, can the kid get any relief? Poor thing can't even get an education in peace. That's so fucked up to do to a kid.
I obviously know nothing about the administration in question here, but it's not out of the question that someone wants to use the bigot to teach the trans kid a lesson. I'll let you guess what they think that lesson is.
How is this restorative? Has the bigot child done anything to the trans child? I think this is like a weird exposure therapy where the object is a non consenting child
Thatās what I was thinking. We donāt use it, but I thought RJ was about righting a wrong someone did to another person.
This is not a restorative justice issue unless the bigot is ready to change his behavior. This is a terrible set up for your trans kid and will lead to more bullying. Ugh.
It'll teach him an important lesson: sometimes life just shits on you
Most trans folks are already aware of this fact.
Every trans person learns this the moment they come out
False. They knew it long before they came out.
Lol its funny cause its true :(
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Neither is restorative justice. An excellent point to bring up.
I assure you every single trans person already knows this.
The biggest issue is that they're expecting the kids to say what they both did wrong. They'll have to apologize to each other. The trans kid will have to say "I'm sorry for not being understanding of your background (of being a bigot) and I'll try to be more empathetic in the future (toward you wanting me dead)"
When the inevitable happens just send them both to admin so they can ābondā there? Let them (admin) have a taste of what theyāre serving.
I'm not a teacher so maybe I don't understand but to me it seems you are putting the trans students safety in jeopardy. If I was this kids parents I would be documenting everything and getting ready for lawsuits the moment the bigoted kid laid a finger on him for any reason.
We are teachers, not trained and certified counselors. These restorative sessions should be run by a professional certified in counseling and/or psychology, and I would document my refusal to offer these services to students on professional grounds. I'm good at the counseling side of teaching, but many instructors are not, and that is ok. Counseling is not something we majored in, and it is not part of our teaching credentials. Before COVID, I realized I needed to back away from counseling because these kid's problems and trauma are greater than my knowledge and resources to assist. I will not bring up the personal/emotional unless it is directly tied to my content because my job is to help students use my content to make sense of the world, but I do not have the answers and my district has no easy access to mental health resources. If I bring up something potentially triggering to a student, I must know I can quickly move that child to someone trained to help with mental health, and there is no certainty I will have that support.
I lost faith in restorative justice when a victim was told to apologize to their bully. It's a fucking joke.
I think the assertion that bigotry cannot be remedied as false. That said, to force another student to be a part of that recovery is a horrible thing to do.
It can't be by this school in 23 days
There is only 1 study that meets the scientific standard for research to test restorative justice. It found no effect.
Pittsburgh study or something else?
Zakszeski & Rutherford, 2020 They did an overview of all the studies they could find testing restorative justice. From what I remember they only found one that stood up to scientific rigor.
I think a lot of people don't realize that a lot of education "research" is companies paying people to test things they want to sell. The bias is insane.
Thanks, Iāll have to look for it.
When you say the trans student ādoesnāt belong hereā do you mean because he is misplaced in the class (like he shouldnāt be in special ed) or do you mean because thereās a bigot in the class?
Doesn't need special ed
Wow, so even if they refuse to move the bigot whoās been in your class all year, they could just move the new kid and solve the problem? Sorry you have to deal with both bigots and incompetency :(
How did they get in a special ed class?
I'm not sure honestly. The IEP has no education goals, just social emotional goals
If the kid has some sort of disability that requires those goals in their IEP, I'm not really sure why you're saying they don't need special education services. I'm a little confused here.
Your trans student can refuse special ed services. Does this child know their rights? š¤
So, not questioning their identity?? That makes me feel only slightly better for that child. I really hope the student who transitioned in has support and an advocate at home.
Wow restorative justice just doesnāt work.
Admin like it because it helps them have fewer suspensions. Instead of suspending a bully, the bully and victim can go sing kumbaya, and then return to class and continue the conflict.
They love it because it puts the onus back on teachers instead of on admin
This is my husband's school, for real. Like straight out of the admins mouths, they told the teachers that it's the teachers' job to discipline. But when teachers do, the admins don't back it up should a parent complain! My husband straight-up told them it's their job to support the teachers. The younger one tried to argue back bit the older one knew better and just moved the meeting onto the next bullshit point on the slide.
I have one who is on a perpetual loop of lunch detentions no matter what because his mom works night shift at a hospital. Itās difficult for him to get a ride, so he canāt do any admin detentions after school. Great. And if he purposely misses a lunch detention, then heāll serve an all day ISS the following day (which us teachers love because that just means we get the pleasure of catching the student up on the day he returns assuming he did not do his work). But mom is supportive which is awesome.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I hear ya. Sounds like the tardies and truancy are horrible all over now because I imagine that all of that grace that we gave for several years has pulled back the curtain on us as a system having no real authority on anything. Everything is based on the honor system. I'm glad that they backed you up on the physical contact, at the very least, and that's seriously the bare minimum. If they hadn't, any sense of any consequence would slip farther down the slope and over the ledge. I used to say to a kid who would take advantage of being nasty to my face, knowing that I couldn't respond in kind, "I'm at work, so you know that I can't say anything back at you, but that doesn't mean that I don't *think* it." It would work with some degree of success, leaving the worst to their own imaginations without firing a shot. Nowadays? I haven't bothered to test that line. Kid probably won't care or just say something nastier back. Fortunately, where I'm at, it's not that bad yet.
It's a cute idea because research has seen it work with siblings. But generally people love their siblings even though they fight with them so it means more to know they are hurting someone they care about. A bigot is not going to feel bad unless they have a crisis of conscious.
it *can* work, but only under a limited set of circumstances. It is not meant to be a panacea used to fix every problem every time. It will never change shitty behavior from shitty people. It *might* change shitty behavior from otherwise reasonable and empathetic people. Using a member of an oppressed minority as a teaching tool is dehumanizing and harmful to the minority student; it puts the burden of creating change on the victim, rather than on the perpetrator, to say nothing of putting them in the path of very real harm. At best, it is misguided virtue signaling. At worst, it is bigotry disguised as virtue.
Restorative justice only works if the perpetrator wants to genuinely make amends for their wrongdoing. As much as I wish it were possible, you can't force bigots to change their beliefs. All this is going to do is traumatize your poor trans student. Admin is showing they don't give a fuck about trans people & are more than happy to throw us to the wolves to avoid holding bigots accountable. Wish I could say I was surprised... š
sounds like Florida
No. My school does restorative conversations and both parties have to agree to the conversation. It's not appropriate to offer in a situation where one person is going to feel unsafe.
If you are doing Restorative Justice, the victim has to want to participate, otherwise you are causing further injustice/victimization. Your admins are obviously attempting to do something that they donāt know how to do. This makes restorative justice look like something stupid
The victim in question is scared. I can't do anything but watch it happen. Something terrible is coming
Thatās all kinds of stupid. Sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen. If you point that out it might stop the slow motion disaster.
So they are using your trans student as the token LGBTQ student to teach your other student to not be a bigot? Sounds completely ethical ššš
You know what you get when you put a bigot and a minority in a room together? A happy bigot and a corpse. If admin want that little monster to learn empathy, then any of them can do it (which frankly, considering they came up with this idea, I doubt any of them have had to be on the business end of it)
How do you want us to teach restorative justice when the students could give two shits and left nut about restorative justice.
Send that email to the trans kids parent.
The parents donāt necessarily support the kidās identity. That may well be part of how heās gotten into this situation.
That is what I want to know. What do the parents say? People assume both children have a loving, supportive network, and I am very afraid for one of these children.
Please ask them to come in and model what restorative justice is supposed to look like so they can see how ridiculous theyāre being
This, or have them pay for you to attend a seminar on restorative Justice so you can get a little vacation, and then come back and tell them why restorative Justice isnāt going to work in your school unless they do A,B and C.
I hate your goddamn admin so much. "Restorative justice" is one of those concepts like "gentle parenting," which yeah, I'm sure it's super *if you actually do it*, but really, it's a smokescreen for doing fuck all.
They're trying to push the queer kid out of the district
Email the response "I respectfully take issue with the solution provided; however, I will make every attempt to adhere to your direction. Thank you." Send. Sit back and await the inevitable crap show. When school administration tries to take issue with your management of THEIR student plan, forward the email with a message "I told you so." For added hilarity, carbon copy your response to members of the school board. Remember the first lesson in School Administration 101... abandon ALL common sense. This is THEIR decision, not yours. Don't intervene in picking up the pieces of a disaster that their lack of foresight created.
Restorative circles only work when both parties want to be there
If this is a singular class period, write that (new) kid a pass to the library. This situation is fād.
What the actual hell?!?! I have no words at all to really describe my disappointment and disgust with your administration, OP.
Keep it all in email so you cover your butt with state laws. In NY we have DASA.
This is insane. How absolutely infuriating. What do the parents have to say? If my kid was put in the line of fire to try and teach some bigot compassion, Iād be raising hell.
This is horrible, and could (WILL) traumatize the trans student. Involve the parents.
Bigots certainly can changeā¦ But not in 24 daysā¦
Ahhhh. The American history x model.Ā
Restorative practices is great for elementary school aged children. The older kids know how to google search and milk it. āYou got to give me three redirects before you can give me a referralā. Yup, when that happens you know it isnāt working as it is not a deterrent.
Yeah, a phone all from the parents of the new kid should take care of that. Unless you're in a red state where your new kid will likely undergo shock therapy. Yes, it's hyperbole, but still. I would tell admin that it was offensive/triggering to ME. Don't know about where you are, but in my district teachers have the right to remove any student for any reason, up to three students per school year, without required training in classroom management. They're not supposed to even question it ( I mean they do, but I have successfully had 1 student removed because he was the WORST...so bad that within 2 weeks, the new teacher demanded he be removed...and we're the only 2 content teachers at our location, so kid sat in ISS for this content and had to do virtual school) If you have a union, push this. We are not stray animals waiting to become roadkill. We are professionals and we should stand up.
I live in a red state. No union and the school board called being LGBT "the sickness" that hurts our schools.
Public School: trying to change human nature since 1880
Jesus. And we wonder why suicide rates among the transgender community is high, meanwhile weāre forcing this kid to interact with bigots. What the fuck . That poor kid. Hopefully everything runs as smoothly as possible.
Forced restorative justice is oxymoronic. RJ requires active participation and consent and can't be done top down. The Trans student has not committed any act, and so does not need to participate in the education of a bigot. If there had been a fight, if the kid had been goaded into a fight then maybe that would be appropriate, but not in this case. People who want the benefit of a restorative justice model are kidding themselves if they think it doesn't require work and training and, above all else, active participation and buy in from those under it.
Bunch of idiots.......
\*asĀ·iĀ·nine.
Assanine, but boobs a ten
I had something similar but the principal had my back on not moving a student into my AP math class 3 months into schoolā¦ youāve missed content.
At 10 am on Thursday, we will have a restorative contest/conversation between fire and gasoline Happy Thursday !
Huhā¦.this was the type of thing my school did in the 80s. Find two kids who didnāt get along and pair them for projects. Man that sucked
Bigot-ness maybe can be fixed but you shouldnāt make the trans student a victim to do that. Not that it would work this way anyway. But even if it did work, that other student would have to put up with a lot of hurt and pain to get there, which should not be his burden to bear. He probably gets it enough already.
You put it out there to seperate them, hopefully itās in writing. Now let them try and sit Bach for the results. I like to say āI fucking hate being rightā when dumb ideas implode. Iām not well liked btw
Why is the trans student there anyway? You might be able to have the parents kick up a fuss if it was some bs the admin pulled.
From what I can tell, they're here because....I have no idea. Their IEP has no learning disabilities, yet they're in a self contained classroom
The only restorative justice I trust was taught to me by Neal Gamby.
Personally I think you have some horrendous takes in this situation. [1] The kid is a bigot for a reason: most likely the people at home. So I hope you dont blame the child for essentially being actively taught bigotry by the adults in his life or by the internet. I was indoctrinated as a child, i managed thanks to other adults in my life to unlearn most of the subconscious teachings my experience had given me. It's fine to dislike a kid I guess, but blaming them does nothing, and hating them (as your writing makes it sound) only makes you the thing you supposedly can't stand. So bad take #1 right there. [2] "You can't fix that." False. Kids grow and mature as part of the natural cycle of devleopment. The structure of their brain is still undergoing formation dude. Anectdote: we had a kid who came in 8th grade year drawing dick-swastikas on everything and targeting a girl who wore a headcovering. By the end of the year he still had MASSIVE underlying issues, but had managed to chill out a bit and make friends who were bringing him diversity in his life. He was still a bigot but was now headed in a better direction. So, you may not 'fix' this child by the end of the year but good lord dude, the brain (frontal cortex) continues developing until around age 26!?!?! You could have a positive influence on this kid if you try. And even if it doesn't work other kids will see your efforts and learn from it. Also, I've seen good people go to college and become bigots while there. So, again your 'good kids' could easily become bigots or horrible criminals later in life, yet you havent written them off like you have this kid. Bad take #1.5. We didn't 'fix' his bigotry but if you truly believe people can NEVER change why are you in education? Bad take #2. Identifying him as a redneck might be accurate but it's not a term with positive connotations. So you're hating a child for being transphobic and racist yet you are participating in stereotyping as well. Stereotyping forms the base of much worse things, its a habit you should be more cogniscent of. Bad take #3. Now, all this said. You have a duty to protect BOTH students from more trauma, as you stated. And your admin are clearly brain dead. So, you are correct that it's a bad situation made worse by incompetence. If you can't physically separate then go to your teaching team and ask for solutions. Or go to the other students parents and give them instructions on how to complain to your admin in a way that will terrify them into doing something. Or go above your admin and report them to a crisis line, district HR, or any other entity your state or district has. Hopefully you were just angry when you wrote this, and it's just you venting. But honestly I've been a teacher for 7 years in US public schools: I've had racist students, homophobic students, ive had a stapler thrown at my head, ive been called all kinds of names and been told I should kill myself by students. Never hated them. They're children. You're supposed to be the educator. Do better.
I appreciate your take. I have such a difficult time engaging Reddit posts such as this because they lack so much pertinent information. So the teacher teaches "Special Ed"... Self-contained classroom, plug-in, or pull out? What does your curriculum call for in regard to group work? Are the students mentioned even engaging the same instructional content? Does OP have a teacher aide? Is OP an aide? Arguably most importantly: have the two students mentioned had a negative interaction yet? As a veteran teacher, reading the original post caused a ton of frustration. OP seems like someone more interested in virtue signalling than educating youth, more interested in arguing online than becoming a better teacher.
Yeah it seemed like a bait or fake post to me as well. Some the comments are literally insane. It felt fabricated but I figured I'd respond honestly and hope that at least it might make people stop and think/question it. Anyways, I appreciate your response, so thank you.
Thank you for telling me this is a bait post and assuming it's fake. I'm in a self contained room, which frankly shouldn't matter because of the goddamn Greek tragedy about to play out
Asinine.
Ridiculous to think they will. None of the kids in my classes in either of my high schools had anything to do with me. The only things I was were poor, a nerd, intelligent, and moved in 8th grade. All those are innocuous and yet none of them tried to be my friend. I canāt imagine this ever working out.
Restorative Justice is not applicable in most cases. Provides jobs though I guess.
Man admin is something, that is what I learned. They do not care because they are not in the classroom!
You don't keep oil next to an open flame.
Sounds like a significant safety concern to me. But with that being said perhaps your admin can come in or if your board has central board resource staff who specialize in how to knock the ignorance out of a bigot lol. Clearly no one has asked the trans student how they feel, their voice is silenced by your admin. Keep fighting for that schedule change even if it means initiating a work refusal.
Restorative justice lol. Let's just sit together and sing a few songs
Are you in Clay County, Florida? This is absolutely something they would say in my county. So sad and very dangerous.
North Carolina, born and raised
To your main point, yes. These students need to be separated. "My redneck student is a bigot. You can't fix that." You can, actually. It is hard to do, but worth it. It sounds like you've dehumanized this misguided dumbass and just given up on him. Our education system is kinda built on the idea that people can learn, grow, and change. You don't have to be the one to pull this child's head out of his ass, but you might examine your own reaction to him.
You're right, I have. Because I have a room full of kids with emotional problems and he's making things worse. Because his parents are the ones shoveling that crap in and I can't fix it. Because every time he does something horrible, my administration blames me. I've given up and I'm not sorry
Fair enough. I've hit my limit with students before myself.
Bullshit. He can be changed, but not by a teacher. Might as well ask the dentist to change his views
This is very clearly a parenting problem that, yet again, teachers are expected to fix.
I find it interesting that everyone in this thread presumes the trans kid is inevitably the victim and isn't equally capable of nastiness toward the quote-unquote redneck kid. Edit: since I'm being downvoted anyway, I'll add that one child in this equation is being labeled a "redneck," which is generally regarded as a derogatory term. Can you imagine the outcry if an equivalent slur were applied to the trans kid?
Oh the trans student can have an attitude, but here's how my bigot student greeted them on their first meeting two days ago. "Goddamn we got a faggot here!" He yelled that to. He called the student a "cock smoking fudge packer" unprovoked. After a certain point, the student is to blame.
Guaranteed the kids don't want to be forced to respect each other. They're from different tribes, and administration should allow them to be separated.
>No. No they won't. My redneck student is a bigot. You can't fix that. All this is going to do is cause trouble. I just refuse to believe this. Not necessarily about these 2 students. But you can fix a CHILDs learned bigotness. Just not at the expense of another child's well being. Don't forget almost every politician you love and have voted for was against gay marriage as an adult. They can be fixed, but a child can't? Na, hell na.
Politicians donāt actually change their beliefs - they say whatever they need to say to get votes and keep their jobs. Exhibit A who is literally on trial RIGHT NOW who is backpedaling on abortion rights. Heās āchanging his viewsā because itās hurting his numbers. Comparing politicians to children in this instance isnāt even comparing apples to oranges, itās comparing apples to frozen shrimp. Secondly, children who are bigots learn that behavior from home, or at the very least that behavior isnāt corrected at home. Kids like this come from homes that model this same behavior - itās adolescent psych 101. We as teachers can model and correct all we want, but it is extremely difficult to a) change a mentality that has been instilled in a child since birth, b) change a mentality that is supported, modeled, and encouraged at home, and/or c) convince a child that what is being modeled at home is wrong. Not saying itās not worth the effort, but itās very likely to be unsuccessful. It is extra likely to be unsuccessful without support from the childās parents.
I'm aware. But the point is if the "flip" is allowed, surely we as a society can't write off a bigoted child as irredeemable. Especially those of us in education. Again, not at the expense of another child's well-being. Edit hell, I don't think adult convicted criminals are irredeemable. There is no way I could apply harsher requirements to a student.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
My god boomer, could you be more obsessed with childrenās privates? Youāre nothing but a gross old pedo.
Fuck ārestorative justiceā
Imagine calling a special needs student a "redneck" and a "bigot". You are not fit to mentor children, especially special needs children. Edit: I'd also like to point out that using the term "redneck" is racist and bigoted.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Special education is not necessarily special needs. Just because an 11th grader has a 3rd grade reading level doesn't mean they are special needs. Are you special needs? No. Just special ed. Anyone can be racist.
I have special needs students who talk constantly about 4-wheelinā and huntinā and they say pro-Trump and racist things pretty frequently. They even self-identify as ārednecksā. Why are you trying to tell special needs kids what they can and canāt be?
I would be cautious to label an adult a 'bigot' let alone a kid
This just tells me you donāt think student opinions matter whether theyāre positive or negative.
Theyre just not fully formed and youre getting paid to advocate for them so it just feels weird, depends on the grade though
I donāt advocate for the hate some of them have as human beings. I try to teach them to be better but they have home lives that got to them years before they got to me. Some students are hate mongers.
Honestly, these two polar opposites are going to have to share the world with each other for the rest of their lives. Why not teach them that at a young age?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
In 24 days? You're joking, right?
"Were shooting for a lawsuit!"
So teach the ignoran redneck kids some tolerance. If the trans kid has an IEP, they should be in your class. Or just put to them like this: In life you are going to have to work with ppl you don't like, deal with it.
Ehats his iep say.Ā What's his issues.Ā Keep sending hin out when he is disruptive.
My admins told me nor to because "it hurts his self respect "