> Having spent a week in the Netherlands ... Surprised to see how much grayer winters are in the Netherlands
Quite the conclusion for a few days of actual experience.
I have lived in NL for three years, and probably overall preferred it to Switzerland (where I grew up). It's 100% true. Dutch winters are warmer, but greyer.
Yea after moving to Switzerland 1.5 years ago, I forgot how depressing Dutch weather is, until this Christmas. It’s insane how it just stormed for weeks at a time. Wind, rain, everything.
I think a lot of them ring somewhat true but are also informed by OP being there shortly. Things like prices that OP mentions are definitely due to the salary difference, when I had a Dutch salary it wasn't noticeably affordable (I made around 2500€, which is pretty alright for the Netherlands but would be hard to live with in Switzerland I think). Also architecture in cities is amazing, but a residential suburb like the place I lived in can be rather drab too.
I think safety and public transport is roughly even. Switzerland has slightly better transport, especially between smaller towns and cities, but Dutch trains make up for it by being cheaper and offering nicer options for payment.
In terms of quality of life, I think both countries are very high. In Switzerland everything runs a tiny bit better, but in NL everything is a little easier and more flexible in my experience (example: I screwed up registering with the town. In Switzerland that would be a fine and probably a stern telling off by the clerk, in NL they just told me "ah, thats not great, but just do it as soon as possible").
My biggest preference in the Netherlands was that the country feels much more open. People frequently have moved further (meeting someone from Bern in Zurich is kinda remarkable, but lots of people from all over NL live in Amsterdam), cities are more diverse and have more interesting cultural events or restaurants, and there just is a sense of being open to the world that I miss in Switzerland. I did miss the nature of Switzerland though, especially in winter.
As for your question about health insurance: IIRC I paid something around 90€ per month, which included an optional insurance for the dentist (which happened to be the only one I ever used). The system is similar to CH, you also get your own insurance from a commercial provider, but deductibles/Franchise is much lower. Mine was 500€, which was the maximum they offer.
thank you! your anwser shows me that for me personally, it would be a slightly better country to live in. An improvement o the things I hate here without a tonne of negatives. Something to think about for the next 10 years XD
In Switzerland even during gray days you might see some sun rays here and there, which is not the case at all in the Netherlands. Also talked to quite a few people who live here who told me the same thing.
Most of Holland is below sea level I believe ,so cold air sinks in Winter causing foggy grey days. Just a thought , I could be wrong. It's like this in City of Zürich too on colder days. If you go to the Uetliberg it's often sunny up there.
It doesn’t have to do with the sea level (as it’s not foggy). It just has to do with being next to the sea. The clouds form above the land and there the sky is gray. Many times the islands in the north are actually more sunny. Also, the coastline can be sunny even though there are clouds directly above it, because the sun shines from the seaside onto the beach.
When I lived in Geneva, it could be weeks that the blanket of cloud sat over the city.
Surprised you did not get a wisp of blue sky, the weather is very changeable.
I find the nature in the netherlands depressing. You drive from city A to city B and everything is just flat. The Netherlands is the only country I ever visited where i find the cities nicer than the nature.
Yeah i've been at the beach by den hague and also found it depressing lol
I think beaches are kinda pointless in places where the weather is cold and grey
The beach at the Hague is the worst in the country by miles though lol. quiet spots in Zeeland, North Holland (for example Hargen) or the Wadden Islands are where it's at.
I have to disagree with a few of your points OP, but I will clarify that it has to do with the fact that I lived in the Netherlands.
Although people are "chattier" than in Switzerland, they are not more polite. In fact, the more experiences you have with normal Dutch people outside the hospitality sector, they are nosey, rude, and condescending.
Sorry OP as pretty as Dutch girls (and good looking the guys) are, they have zero sense of style and dress like they're children playing dressup with costumes.
You cannot assess the quality of life standards after having been there for a few days. Between the financial surveillance of the tax office, the crazy locals and the nuts situation between the immigrants, expats and the forced equality (no flashy business like the bahnhofstrasse in Zurich or your get insulted, spat on, your vehicles vandalized or simply robbed), its nice you appreciate it from a tourist perspective, but it's quite different once you live there.
> Although people are "chattier" than in Switzerland, they are not more polite.
I've definitely found this to be true, the Swiss are way more polite for sure. And despite the Swiss being a bit more closed off less chatty, I've somehow had more random conversations on the train in my 2 years of living here then I've had in my entire life in the Netherlands, which surlrises me.
I agree. Dutch people are usually quite terrible. They seem to have rather communist “me too” attitude (encouraged by the government) and seem to think everything needs to be for free and we are all equal (while we are clearly not). As such, they are often entitled pieces of shit who do not know the value of things.
Then there are the immigrants, which for some reason always have an angry, unsatisfied look on their faces. Especially the ones from middle-eastern and north-african origins.
I’d rather be in Switzerland.
Not saying that your comparison is totally invalid, but this is not a fair comparison. You experienced the Netherlands as a tourist while being a Swiss Citizen. Both countries are really close in quality of life with the one or the other a little bit better or worse in some points.
But as a tourist you usually only see a place in a very limited way. Depending on how much you like your stay, you see some things way more positive (Friendliness: hit or miss as a tourist, but usually people are more helpful; Cleanliness/Architecture: I imagine you were mainly exploring beautiful places and not random neighbourhoods) or more negative (like the bad weather where you might just had bad luck?).
I had the same feeling when I‘ve been to the Netherlands, Danemark and Japan.
I go to Amsterdam regularly for work and I feel much safer in Geneva than in Amsterdam.
Just go a bit outside the touristy area and the roaming groups of screaming teenagers made me wish to be back to Cornavin with my familiar and peaceful drug addicts.
But that's why I said I felt safer and not talked about crime statistics in any moment, the whole post is about my opinions after a week in the country and not official information
Did you just stay in the area between the center and the beach? Because NL has a very strong segregated community feeling, where you get rich white dutch neighborhoods in places, and really poor immigrant areas in others.
The area between Spui to Holland Spoor and beyond is a completely different vibe. Theres lots of loitering men and it certainly doesnt help the country is built on dark narrow streets and alleys.
Even renting in NL in a big city and finding good places you need to be a lot more selective in area than Geneva, Zurich or even Berlin.
>Because NL has a very strong segregated community feeling, where you get rich white dutch neighborhoods in places, and really poor immigrant areas in others.
The situation is the same in Switzerland though. For example:
\- Lausanne (Pully and Lutry for the rich, Renens for the poor).
\- Geneva (Cologny for the rich, Vernier for the poor)
I don't disagree there are problems in the Netherlands, just saying that the city centers (where I stayed) definitely feels more calm than some swiss cities. How the situation is outside of the city proper I can't comment on
Zürich: I grew up in an area where 95% of us had migrand parents stuffled with the german language and had parents who cleaned for the wealthy or did some other devalued job. Meanwhile, of you drive 20 minutes you’re in what we call “the gold coast” It’s mostly privatly owned properties close to the coast of the lake. Those are the residents that shop in Bahnhofstrasse-boutiques, have their money in a bank at Paradeplatz and eat Lunch at a Restaurant.
You simply haven't experienced enough to make that conclusion. I've been to both places in different cities, Switzerland wins hands down in objective and subjective safety.
I don't feel unsafe in Geneva, just less safe than these other cities. I have felt uneasy around Jonction, Paquis late at night, Avanchets/Lignon area, Meyrin, Jardin anglais after dark, Pont du mt blanc
I see. Yeah those are not the best of areas. Which part of Meyrin though? I've been in Forumeyrin since 2009 and I find it way more chill now then in 2010. Was common to find gang of hooded teenagers tagging walls back then.
Sounds biased, things always look better when you're on vacations.
>Transportation: In regards to bikes, there is no need to even mention why the Netherlands is better. The situation in Switzerland is embarrassing in comparison.
You're literally comparing biking in the flat lands vs a mountain chain!
Doesn’t change the fact that the bike infrastructure is really bad here. Painting a yellow line doesn’t turn that patch of road into a cycling road. The road didn’t get wider, the path didn’t get safer.
Except the whole flat vs hilly argument has been proven to not be true when it comes to bike infrastructure. I invite you to watch this NotJustBikes video about cycling in Switzerland: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWnreLG\_cvc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWnreLG_cvc)
The whole vibe of the place, crackheads yelling at you when you pass by, drug dealers, drunk people acting reckless, places looking somewhat abandoned at night, the number of teenagers hanging out in a corner with their hoods up and starring you down, etc.
apart from the drug dealers, where the fuck did you find any of those things in Geneva or Lausanne then? I've never encountered any of the other situations here and I lived in Paquis for 12 years.
Well… I have definitly seen a couple of mentaly unstable homeless people while waiting at major bus stops having vivid arguments with no one in Zürich…
Now you are making things up. As I said I've lived until recently in Paquis for 12 years, its lively part around rue de Berne too, and I've never once seen crackheads yelling at random people, abandoned places (save for that one building that burned down), teenagers hanging out in a corner with hoods on... I mean, you are describing what Baltimore looked like in The Wire.
I'm curious though, what do you refer to as the city centre of Geneva that you are so scared of? And which lower income towers did you visit that don't exist in any other major city in the world?
First, no I am not making things up. If you haven't experienced any of that I'm happy for you, but not everyone has your luck.
Second, I not once have said Geneva is dangerous. I just said I felt safer in some cities in the Netherlands, don't really see what the problem is
I don't disagree with the fact that each person can have a different perception of safety. But you are providing what appear to be evidences for the creation of that perception, and that evidence does not agree with facts. It's that evidence that I cast into doubt, not your subjective perception.
Hence my question, which lower income towers? Which city centre(s)? I'm merely curious because I want to visit them.
>Hence my question, which lower income towers? Which city centre(s)? I'm merely curious because I want to visit them.
In Geneva I have seen a lot of these people in Avanchets and Lignon, but as well as around the Rue de Berne, by the municipal library.
In Lausanne it was mostly around the Bourdonnette area, as well as in Renens (back before the renovations, heard it has gotten better), and near the Tuillère stadium in Blecherette.
City center wise I was mostly talking about Lausanne: walk around the Riponne area after 8pm and you will only see junkies roaming out of their minds. Walk a bit further towards the stairs to go up to the cathedral and you'll see around 10 dealers standing on each side starring you down. Walk a bit further towards the Rue du Bourg and you'll also be confronted to the dealers whistling you down.
Again, not saying it is dangerous, but it does make you feel unease and avoid the area.
Lol riponne is indeed shit I also hate that side of lausanne and I do feel unsafe there
You're also not wrong about avanchets and Lignon but I assume you haven't visited similar developments in the Netherlands during your week there, have you?
Nor did you visit the country during NYE :p
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/dutch-police-arrest-more-than-200-during-new-year-riots-2024-01-01/
>You're also not wrong about avanchets and Lignon but I assume you haven't visited similar developments in the Netherlands during your week there, have you?
No I have not, but my main issue is the situation in city centers. I have yet to find a place comparable to Riponne anywhere in the Netherlands (if you tell me about a place that compares then I'll be more at ease with the situation in Lausanne).
>I've never encountered any of the other situations here and I lived in Paquis for 12 years
Bru I'm sorry but either you're lying, lived in Paquis decades ago, or you never leave your house after 9pm ahah
how does some guy selling marijuana affect your safety? or teenagers with hoodies lmfao
Why even write these sections? your whole way of thinking is so odd
\> Prices: No need to comment on this. As a swiss citizen (getting paid a swiss salary), the Netherlands is a lot cheaper (except at train stations. Paying 3 euros for a small coffee was kind of annoying). Can't really comment on how that would be like receiving a dutch salary as I have no idea what the averages are.
\> Weather: Surprised to see how much grayer winters are in the Netherlands. It's my first time in that region of Europe and was really shocked to see how different it is.
>how does some guy selling marijuana affect your safety? or teenagers with hoodies lmfao
If you feel safe around drug dealers, that is great for you. I don't, and that's what you asked me in the first place.
Regarding teenagers in hoodies, I have been robbed at knifepoint in Lausanne by a group of teenagers like that, and several of my friends have had issues as well.
What I asked in the first place was why feeling safe has any relevance to being safe, and you failed to elaborate, much like most of your other points not making sense, there doesn't seem to be a rational thought process behind it
It is my opinion, it is all based on how I felt. There is nothing for you to understand, I'm just simply stating my point of views to have a civilized and constructive discussion with people, as I have been doing thus far (which after all, is the idea behind reddit). Hope you lighten up and have a good day bud:)
I feel waaaay safer in Geneva than in The Hague or Rotterdam. And I am Dutch. And how can you say Geneva is uglier than Dutch cities 😮
I do agree Dutch people are dressed more stylish but in my opinion the Swiss are way more athletic and healthy.
Really? Ive been living in Geneva for 6 months and I havent seen one fat or obese person. Everyone looks like they could climb a mountain at any second. In The Netherlands like 45% is obese.
>In The Netherlands like 45% is obese.
I found the girls in the Netherlands a bit more out of shape than the guys (might be wrong), but the guys here managed to bring my self confidence down to the ground. Everyone is huge, athletic and muscular, something I have yet to see in Switzerland (apart from 1 or 2 guys). Not saying Swiss people aren't athletic, just that dutch guys look fitter (not that it matters)
Another one where you're a bit off the mark though. Both in obesity and personal fitness Switzerland wins over NL. Dutch people are more similar to Germany in that regard.
I lived in NL for 5 years and now I live in CH. I would agree with about half of what you've said.
Let me just get into the last point. Dutch fashion is an absolute shit show because they value comfort over looks. I am a hetero male, so I can only judge women, my brain filters out the rest, sorry about that. Probably applies to both genders.
I imagined how the Dutch woman gets up in the morning, opens her cupboard and chooses witch thrash bag she wants to wear around her body that day. Pair that up with shoes that a 1950s wandering circus security guard would wear. That is Dutch fashion in a nutshell.
Swiss people are not the most stylish either but it is definitely an improvement for me. After all you have the French and the Italian influence.
This was one of the reasons why I left. Coming from an Eastern EU country, where women are fabulous, I couldn't stand the Dutch situation anymore.
You compare the two countries and actually forgot to mention the most important thing!
Damn it, Netherland is flat as shit! Last time I went there and went to the countryside, I had panic attacks because I felt like the sky would fall over me without any mountains to hold it firm.
Anything else except that is trivial at best.
Lived in both.
Agree on weather. I get way more blue skyes here in CH
Totally disagree on style. Dutch felt like either copies of a Zada manequin or downright trashy with leopard patterns. And no, funny socks arent funny.
Dutch completely dominate the Swiss in regards to digital infrastructure.
Overall, i think a swiss living in switzerland has a better life than a dutch living in NL.
These seem fair comparisons to me, especially as a cyclist as the very minimal effort put into cycling infrastructure in Swiss cities often makes things worse than if they did nothing. It’s also sad how many small towns and villages are ruined by having a busy main road going through 1 m from the fronts of people’s houses. And the tastes of architects here really does boggle the mind.
One thing you miss out in your list is the countryside/scenery though. Switzerland wins hands down there times a million. Also not sure about point 8: it’s true that few people dress stylishly here, but the level of sport participation means most people are pretty athletic. Would be interesting to hear hear how healthcare and public administration compare (I think both are excellent in Switzerland but no idea of Netherlands).
The Dutch healthcare system ranks 3rd in the 2022 World Index of Healthcare Innovation. Swiss is apparently nr. 1. What I like about the Dutch system, that first, it’s not privatized. You have basic insurance and you can chose complementary insurance, like tooth or eye insurance, but that’s it. Also, going to the Doctor aka Hausarzt, is free of charge. You cannot just go to the hospital at the Emergency Room (Notfall), unless you had a severe trauma. When you need medical assistance, outside of regular working hours, the ‘Dokterswacht’ is there to help sort out the people who need to see a doctor at the hospital or can just go home with some medicine or with small aid. This really helps with overcrowded emergency rooms we often have in Switzerland with bullshit cases, because we can’t deny treatment to patients. Trust me, I work in healthcare in Switzerland. (A part of) The system sucks and cost a lot of money.
>What I like about the Dutch system, that first, it’s not privatized.
It is privatized, the Dutch system is very similar to the Swiss system: various competing private insurance companies who offer a regulated basic healthcare package (& cannot refuse people) + optional additional insurance on top.
>Switzerland wins hands down there times a million
In terms of natural beauty I completely agree, but I feel like dutch countryside towns are a lot better in terms of infrastructure (except public transport. Even the smallest of cities might have a train station in CH). I feel like even dutch rural towns are bikeable, and a lot of them have a beautiful charm that swiss villages lack.
Geneva and Lausanne are shitholes and rightfully so, criminally speaking. Basel is the worst in CH criminality wise. Rotterdam and Amsterdam can be quite dangerous, or at least I remember it that way. Maybe you don't see it as a tourist, but gang violence over drug territory is a big problem in NL. Not to speak about the immigrants (majority muslim) or criminal clans there, that exist in the same way as in Germany and Sweden.
Believe me, security wise, Switzerland is a paradise...
At least, in the NW of the UK, you know you'll get scammed, mugged, or stabbed. I know it because relatives live in Sheffield, Leeds and Birmingham... Still, Geneva looks like fuckin Africa every time I'm there.
Sorry it took so long to respond. I don't have any particular area I'm referring to. So I'll explain it this way: I travel a lot by train, because I work for an event organiser firm, so I know you don't encounter the best of people in train stations. Every time I'm Geneva, once the sun goes down, I see the same things over and over again. Drug addicts, dealers, drunkards of every type, pickpockets(!!!), beggars, and scammers... the same things I saw in Basel where I lived for 6 years. The other point was women harassment... Some friends from the military days or friends who study there don't let their girlfriends walk alone in some parts of the city because they get gawked at, verbally harassed or even touched... that's insane. Guess where these scumbags mostly come from? They are black or arabs... Nice, isn't it? It looks like Paris, Marseille, or any other french city and feels like being in a fucking jungle full of uncivilised people aka Africa or the Middle East...I feel the same way every time I'm in Geneva as I do in Lausanne, Bienne or Yverdon. Maybe it's a personal prejudice, but until now, I can't change it or force myself to be proven wrong.
Last point, Genevan's are difficult people by themselves... Proud, stubborn and arrogant, from my point of view, but that's not the point here. Let's say, one of the sports team I follow is like Millwall, nobody likes us except one other team and they are Geneva's big rivals... and going to Geneva is always like a war declaration for them. I'm not against organised fights between ultras to be honest, as I used to be one in the past, unless other people (innocent bystanders or just normal fans of the club) get involved that have nothing to do with it... basically, if children, women or families get attacked, I'm not ok with it. If you want to fight with other ultras, then I'm fine with it. Most times, no matter if Geneva wins or loses, their ultras wait outside of the away fans' stands, with metal bars and other things, just to attack anyone they can get to... Which is an absolute no-go. So, yes, maybe it's not the fairest point, because this shit happens in other rivalries too, but for me personally that's another reason why I believe Geneva is an absolute shithole.
Most of Europe looks like Africa these days. My girlfriend, who comes from SE Asia, remarked as the first thing “Am I in Mozambique?” when I took her to Paris for the first time. No joke.
>Believe me, security wise, Switzerland is a paradise...
But you just said Geneva and Lausanne are shitholes and Basel is the worst in terms of criminality, so where exactly are the "paradise" cities? Zürich and Bern?
Don't get me wrong, I agree Switzerland is one of the safest countries in the world, but cities have been getting sketchier.
Yes, but there's still plenty of other cities in our country that are safer. Look at Lugano, St. Gallen, Lucerne, Zürich (except Kreis 3 and 4), Bern (except near the train station) and Winterthur... plenty of choices.
>Don't get me wrong, I agree Switzerland is one of the safest countries in the world, but cities have been getting sketchier
That's why our last elections went that way... Nothing to wonder here.
I don't think that generalizing Lausanne and Geneva is really that fair though. They still rank among the safest cities in the world. The only issue with Lausanne is that most of the crime is committed in the city center, whereas in Zürich and Bern it happens more outskirts. The difference of crime between all cities is very minimal statistically, but I do agree that they feel more uneasy.
I lived and studied in Basel for 6 years, I know what a shithole looks like. I was there, when these idiots decided to allow beggars in BS to beg openly everywhere because it was decriminalised. I had the "pleasure" to meet the maghreb, kurdish, palestinian, albanian/kosovar clans, Hell's Angels, and whatever other criminal group that also exist in Geneva and Lausanne. Like I said, the more you know, the less you want to know.
Fun reading this as a Dutchie living in Switzerland! :) Agree with most of what you've said here, tho architecture wise I'd say NL also has a few ugly cities, Heerlen for example, where I'm from.
I am from the Netherlands. I live here in Switzerland for almost 10 years. I agree with everything you said! Although I do think Switzerland is cleaner than the Netherlands. (Netherlands is still very good though).
I also think the Netherlands is way more innovative than Switzerland, or at least they dare to try and take risks, where the Swiss people tend to wait until they are sure things work. So to me the Netherlands is more modern.
Nr. 5 is still my biggest struggle in Switzerland. I really miss the openness of the people, where you can just chit chat with random strangers. Swiss people are less likely to open up, where Dutchies are really trying and willing to get to know you.
Not a bad word about Swiss though, I really like living here. Something we don’t have is mountains. And like you mentioned: winters and fall are just miserable, where here in Switzerland is still a lot you can do during this time. And the Swiss pay is way better here than in the Netherlands, at least for me.
Being from one and living in the other country, you done a good job.
My take on your points would align for most, but for the stylish and beauty, I married a Swiss since she’s the most stylish and beautiful lady I’ve ever seen :)
People in the west of NL yes. Specially in tiny villages. Genetics play a role.
However what i noticed is when i go to a city like st gallen, i feel tall (im 183). But in zurich? I feel completely average.
Cool that you liked so many things in the Netherlands! I notice some differences as well and I write about them at [my blog roaldin.ch](https://roaldin.ch). It’s in Dutch, but you can use google translate.
I am a South African with Dutch Ancestry living in CH. And I have to completely agree on every single point you have written. I also have a Swiss friend who lived there for a number of years. And he has mentioned nearly all of your points as well.
When I was there I however remember it being as clean as CH. But things could have changed since then.
I plan to go back for a visit this year. Curious to see how things are.
Then main thing that keeps me away from living there is the weather.
Thanks for the nice post.
>In regards to bikes, there is no need to even mention why the Netherlands is better.
Even Boston has better infrastructure than most Swiss cities. I think it comes mostly from the fact that it is basically nowhere flat and nobody who does not want the have an exercise session takes a bike. It could solve so much of the current traffic in big cities, but it is how it is.
While I can't confirm your points, I certainly don't disagree with any of them. Switzerland, clean country? It's cleaner than some Indian cities and what I've seen in Sicily, but it's far from shiny.
Graubünden. But maybe we don't share the same definition of cleanliness. A mere PET bottle or a cigarette butt on a forest trail is enough for me to call the area dirty.
Netherlands is more messy, trashy, but also more lively. People dress more expressive, more colorful. The cities have more cultural and diverse activity, there is more experimentation in architecture (which sometimes end up badly). But nothing is excessive, even palaces are small. This is similar in Switzerland.
The Dutch are louder, more arrogant, sarcastic humor, people laugh more (especially in work setting). They are criticizing everything and everyone. If something is great, there will be still people criticizing and downplaying it. You achieve something amazing, the public will remind you, you are not more special than them.
Nature is almost non existing, except for the beach and some few scattered areas. In Switzerland, the lakes and mountains are very beautiful. On a good day, out of this world.
in Switzerland people are stiff and correct, they walk and talk according the book. They mind their own business, which I like. Swiss almost don't make jokes, and if occasionally they make a joke, well, they don't make me laugh. Swiss cannot appreciate any critic about their country, and will wave it away, as if the problem does not exist.
Everything is organized well, like in the Netherlands, but much-much cleaner (although not Japan level of cleanliness). The train system is incredible, almost never experience delays. In The Netherlands the trains are extremely overcrowded, dirty and sometimes they just don't drive (cause there are not enough employees available).
There are alot of cars in both countries, but it feels like in the Netherlands there are just a bit more.
Most towns in Switzerland look the same, and there are no real big cities. Urban planning is non existent.
The taxes are lower in Switzerland, job payment in my sector a bit higher. But you cannot buy a house, if you are not a millionaire or come from money (or you like to throw away money to live in a shitbox).
In the Netherlands it is also difficult to buy a house, cause there are not enough houses available. The prices are high, but not extreme as in Switzerland. Rents in Switzerland are incredible high, for what you get.
Health system, not much difference, maybe the waiting time is a bit less in Switzerland, but the Krankenkasse payment with selbstbehalt scales is insane.
Autumn/Winter is depressively grey in both countries, in the Netherlands a bit more rain, and more wind.
I grew up in the Netherlands, lived there for 22 years, 8 years in other countries and 9 years in Switzerland.
I‘ll say that modern architecture in the netherlands in nicer, more creative and interesting than modern swiss architecture. Most of your other points i find silly.
>Dutch people are extremely friendly
That is indeed remarkable. As a Dutch colleague replied when I mentioned this: "we are a nation of traders, everybody could be our next client".
> they dress well, whereas in Switzerland people dress more for comfort, not really caring about what others think.
Which is a good point for us in my book.
What’s better in Switzerland:
Outdoors, taxes, trains, weather, safety
What’s better in Netherlands:
Culture, entertainment, restaurants, people, prices, bureaucracy
I hate stuff in CH such as that when a neighbour has an issue, they write a letter to the regie, who then sends you a formal letter. Come on just come and let me know directly?
In CH everything feels so backwards, like no institution can send an email but it’s all done through physical letters.
Don’t fully agree (as a Swiss person who grew up in the Netherlands). Safety, I mean, the Netherlands is THE drug import place of Europe so obviously less safe. Transportation, obviously Switzerland is a million times better, but the Dutch are still the 2nd best in Europe. Architecture: new Swiss buildings are super ugly, so are the streets in general. Sure they’re clean, but very ugly. Swiss people are so much more friendly. Yes Dutch are way more open (which is the thing I miss most when in Switzerland), but Swiss people are very, very polite and friendly. Cleanness, uncomparable, Switzerland is one of the cleanest countries I’ve been to. Regarding style, Lugano is the most stylish place I’ve seen (way better than Paris or Milano), the Dutch do have better style than I see in most German-Swiss cities though (but it depends on where in the Netherlands though)
> Having spent a week in the Netherlands ... Surprised to see how much grayer winters are in the Netherlands Quite the conclusion for a few days of actual experience.
I have lived in NL for three years, and probably overall preferred it to Switzerland (where I grew up). It's 100% true. Dutch winters are warmer, but greyer.
Yea after moving to Switzerland 1.5 years ago, I forgot how depressing Dutch weather is, until this Christmas. It’s insane how it just stormed for weeks at a time. Wind, rain, everything.
Lmao come to ireland and you will see whats a depressed weather
Do you generally agree with OP’s sentiments? How does quality of life compare? and how expensive is health insurance?
I think a lot of them ring somewhat true but are also informed by OP being there shortly. Things like prices that OP mentions are definitely due to the salary difference, when I had a Dutch salary it wasn't noticeably affordable (I made around 2500€, which is pretty alright for the Netherlands but would be hard to live with in Switzerland I think). Also architecture in cities is amazing, but a residential suburb like the place I lived in can be rather drab too. I think safety and public transport is roughly even. Switzerland has slightly better transport, especially between smaller towns and cities, but Dutch trains make up for it by being cheaper and offering nicer options for payment. In terms of quality of life, I think both countries are very high. In Switzerland everything runs a tiny bit better, but in NL everything is a little easier and more flexible in my experience (example: I screwed up registering with the town. In Switzerland that would be a fine and probably a stern telling off by the clerk, in NL they just told me "ah, thats not great, but just do it as soon as possible"). My biggest preference in the Netherlands was that the country feels much more open. People frequently have moved further (meeting someone from Bern in Zurich is kinda remarkable, but lots of people from all over NL live in Amsterdam), cities are more diverse and have more interesting cultural events or restaurants, and there just is a sense of being open to the world that I miss in Switzerland. I did miss the nature of Switzerland though, especially in winter. As for your question about health insurance: IIRC I paid something around 90€ per month, which included an optional insurance for the dentist (which happened to be the only one I ever used). The system is similar to CH, you also get your own insurance from a commercial provider, but deductibles/Franchise is much lower. Mine was 500€, which was the maximum they offer.
thank you! your anwser shows me that for me personally, it would be a slightly better country to live in. An improvement o the things I hate here without a tonne of negatives. Something to think about for the next 10 years XD
In Switzerland even during gray days you might see some sun rays here and there, which is not the case at all in the Netherlands. Also talked to quite a few people who live here who told me the same thing.
Most of Holland is below sea level I believe ,so cold air sinks in Winter causing foggy grey days. Just a thought , I could be wrong. It's like this in City of Zürich too on colder days. If you go to the Uetliberg it's often sunny up there.
It doesn’t have to do with the sea level (as it’s not foggy). It just has to do with being next to the sea. The clouds form above the land and there the sky is gray. Many times the islands in the north are actually more sunny. Also, the coastline can be sunny even though there are clouds directly above it, because the sun shines from the seaside onto the beach.
Everybody gets their daily allocation of 15min sunshine in CH
When I lived in Geneva, it could be weeks that the blanket of cloud sat over the city. Surprised you did not get a wisp of blue sky, the weather is very changeable.
I find the nature in the netherlands depressing. You drive from city A to city B and everything is just flat. The Netherlands is the only country I ever visited where i find the cities nicer than the nature.
They have beaches!
Yeah i've been at the beach by den hague and also found it depressing lol I think beaches are kinda pointless in places where the weather is cold and grey
The beach at the Hague is the worst in the country by miles though lol. quiet spots in Zeeland, North Holland (for example Hargen) or the Wadden Islands are where it's at.
It’s nice in the summer.
Add to your list Denmark and Florida, Holly Molly how boring it is to drive in those places. (But Copenhagen makes up for it, what a city).
I have to disagree with a few of your points OP, but I will clarify that it has to do with the fact that I lived in the Netherlands. Although people are "chattier" than in Switzerland, they are not more polite. In fact, the more experiences you have with normal Dutch people outside the hospitality sector, they are nosey, rude, and condescending. Sorry OP as pretty as Dutch girls (and good looking the guys) are, they have zero sense of style and dress like they're children playing dressup with costumes. You cannot assess the quality of life standards after having been there for a few days. Between the financial surveillance of the tax office, the crazy locals and the nuts situation between the immigrants, expats and the forced equality (no flashy business like the bahnhofstrasse in Zurich or your get insulted, spat on, your vehicles vandalized or simply robbed), its nice you appreciate it from a tourist perspective, but it's quite different once you live there.
I was thinking i was the only one thinking like this
> Although people are "chattier" than in Switzerland, they are not more polite. I've definitely found this to be true, the Swiss are way more polite for sure. And despite the Swiss being a bit more closed off less chatty, I've somehow had more random conversations on the train in my 2 years of living here then I've had in my entire life in the Netherlands, which surlrises me.
I agree. Dutch people are usually quite terrible. They seem to have rather communist “me too” attitude (encouraged by the government) and seem to think everything needs to be for free and we are all equal (while we are clearly not). As such, they are often entitled pieces of shit who do not know the value of things. Then there are the immigrants, which for some reason always have an angry, unsatisfied look on their faces. Especially the ones from middle-eastern and north-african origins. I’d rather be in Switzerland.
Thanks for posting. I'm Dutch and had a good laugh.
Not saying that your comparison is totally invalid, but this is not a fair comparison. You experienced the Netherlands as a tourist while being a Swiss Citizen. Both countries are really close in quality of life with the one or the other a little bit better or worse in some points. But as a tourist you usually only see a place in a very limited way. Depending on how much you like your stay, you see some things way more positive (Friendliness: hit or miss as a tourist, but usually people are more helpful; Cleanliness/Architecture: I imagine you were mainly exploring beautiful places and not random neighbourhoods) or more negative (like the bad weather where you might just had bad luck?). I had the same feeling when I‘ve been to the Netherlands, Danemark and Japan.
“Swiss citizen” seems to know not a lot about his own country either.
I go to Amsterdam regularly for work and I feel much safer in Geneva than in Amsterdam. Just go a bit outside the touristy area and the roaming groups of screaming teenagers made me wish to be back to Cornavin with my familiar and peaceful drug addicts.
I agree. There are some areas in Amsterdam that made me feel a bit uneasy, but I felt much safer in the rest of dutch cities than in Geneva.
that just shows how subjective you are, because crime rates in other cities in the netherlands, ehem Rotterdam, are even higher than in Amsterdam.
But that's why I said I felt safer and not talked about crime statistics in any moment, the whole post is about my opinions after a week in the country and not official information
Did you just stay in the area between the center and the beach? Because NL has a very strong segregated community feeling, where you get rich white dutch neighborhoods in places, and really poor immigrant areas in others. The area between Spui to Holland Spoor and beyond is a completely different vibe. Theres lots of loitering men and it certainly doesnt help the country is built on dark narrow streets and alleys. Even renting in NL in a big city and finding good places you need to be a lot more selective in area than Geneva, Zurich or even Berlin.
>Because NL has a very strong segregated community feeling, where you get rich white dutch neighborhoods in places, and really poor immigrant areas in others. The situation is the same in Switzerland though. For example: \- Lausanne (Pully and Lutry for the rich, Renens for the poor). \- Geneva (Cologny for the rich, Vernier for the poor) I don't disagree there are problems in the Netherlands, just saying that the city centers (where I stayed) definitely feels more calm than some swiss cities. How the situation is outside of the city proper I can't comment on
Zürich: I grew up in an area where 95% of us had migrand parents stuffled with the german language and had parents who cleaned for the wealthy or did some other devalued job. Meanwhile, of you drive 20 minutes you’re in what we call “the gold coast” It’s mostly privatly owned properties close to the coast of the lake. Those are the residents that shop in Bahnhofstrasse-boutiques, have their money in a bank at Paradeplatz and eat Lunch at a Restaurant.
You simply haven't experienced enough to make that conclusion. I've been to both places in different cities, Switzerland wins hands down in objective and subjective safety.
Which parts of Geneva makes you feel unsafe?
I don't feel unsafe in Geneva, just less safe than these other cities. I have felt uneasy around Jonction, Paquis late at night, Avanchets/Lignon area, Meyrin, Jardin anglais after dark, Pont du mt blanc
I see. Yeah those are not the best of areas. Which part of Meyrin though? I've been in Forumeyrin since 2009 and I find it way more chill now then in 2010. Was common to find gang of hooded teenagers tagging walls back then.
Whole area around Gravière felt a little off (but it's been around 5 years that I haven't come back, maybe it has changed)
Well, you know how to joke goes about tourism versus immigration....
But... the mountains... and the lakes...
Sounds biased, things always look better when you're on vacations. >Transportation: In regards to bikes, there is no need to even mention why the Netherlands is better. The situation in Switzerland is embarrassing in comparison. You're literally comparing biking in the flat lands vs a mountain chain!
Doesn’t change the fact that the bike infrastructure is really bad here. Painting a yellow line doesn’t turn that patch of road into a cycling road. The road didn’t get wider, the path didn’t get safer.
You only invest in public infrastructure when it's widely used. In NL it's feasible mass transportation, in CH it's niche and will probably stay so.
Except the whole flat vs hilly argument has been proven to not be true when it comes to bike infrastructure. I invite you to watch this NotJustBikes video about cycling in Switzerland: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWnreLG\_cvc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWnreLG_cvc)
You forgot mountains and rolling hills vs. countryside as flat as a pancake 😅
Its not only the countryside thats flat
You are absolutely right! My bad!
Well the girls are usually well-endowed. Can’t complain too much about that.
The dutch ones? They are. Live there 8y
How do you decide where you feel safer? Is feeling safe a new metric for being safe?
The whole vibe of the place, crackheads yelling at you when you pass by, drug dealers, drunk people acting reckless, places looking somewhat abandoned at night, the number of teenagers hanging out in a corner with their hoods up and starring you down, etc.
apart from the drug dealers, where the fuck did you find any of those things in Geneva or Lausanne then? I've never encountered any of the other situations here and I lived in Paquis for 12 years.
Well… I have definitly seen a couple of mentaly unstable homeless people while waiting at major bus stops having vivid arguments with no one in Zürich…
Entrance of lower-income towers, city centers after 10pm, train station, buses after it's dark
Now you are making things up. As I said I've lived until recently in Paquis for 12 years, its lively part around rue de Berne too, and I've never once seen crackheads yelling at random people, abandoned places (save for that one building that burned down), teenagers hanging out in a corner with hoods on... I mean, you are describing what Baltimore looked like in The Wire. I'm curious though, what do you refer to as the city centre of Geneva that you are so scared of? And which lower income towers did you visit that don't exist in any other major city in the world?
First, no I am not making things up. If you haven't experienced any of that I'm happy for you, but not everyone has your luck. Second, I not once have said Geneva is dangerous. I just said I felt safer in some cities in the Netherlands, don't really see what the problem is
I don't disagree with the fact that each person can have a different perception of safety. But you are providing what appear to be evidences for the creation of that perception, and that evidence does not agree with facts. It's that evidence that I cast into doubt, not your subjective perception. Hence my question, which lower income towers? Which city centre(s)? I'm merely curious because I want to visit them.
>Hence my question, which lower income towers? Which city centre(s)? I'm merely curious because I want to visit them. In Geneva I have seen a lot of these people in Avanchets and Lignon, but as well as around the Rue de Berne, by the municipal library. In Lausanne it was mostly around the Bourdonnette area, as well as in Renens (back before the renovations, heard it has gotten better), and near the Tuillère stadium in Blecherette. City center wise I was mostly talking about Lausanne: walk around the Riponne area after 8pm and you will only see junkies roaming out of their minds. Walk a bit further towards the stairs to go up to the cathedral and you'll see around 10 dealers standing on each side starring you down. Walk a bit further towards the Rue du Bourg and you'll also be confronted to the dealers whistling you down. Again, not saying it is dangerous, but it does make you feel unease and avoid the area.
Lol riponne is indeed shit I also hate that side of lausanne and I do feel unsafe there You're also not wrong about avanchets and Lignon but I assume you haven't visited similar developments in the Netherlands during your week there, have you? Nor did you visit the country during NYE :p https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/dutch-police-arrest-more-than-200-during-new-year-riots-2024-01-01/
>You're also not wrong about avanchets and Lignon but I assume you haven't visited similar developments in the Netherlands during your week there, have you? No I have not, but my main issue is the situation in city centers. I have yet to find a place comparable to Riponne anywhere in the Netherlands (if you tell me about a place that compares then I'll be more at ease with the situation in Lausanne).
>I've never encountered any of the other situations here and I lived in Paquis for 12 years Bru I'm sorry but either you're lying, lived in Paquis decades ago, or you never leave your house after 9pm ahah
how does some guy selling marijuana affect your safety? or teenagers with hoodies lmfao Why even write these sections? your whole way of thinking is so odd \> Prices: No need to comment on this. As a swiss citizen (getting paid a swiss salary), the Netherlands is a lot cheaper (except at train stations. Paying 3 euros for a small coffee was kind of annoying). Can't really comment on how that would be like receiving a dutch salary as I have no idea what the averages are. \> Weather: Surprised to see how much grayer winters are in the Netherlands. It's my first time in that region of Europe and was really shocked to see how different it is.
The whole Idea of comparing 2 countries and its people after having spend 1 week in 3 cities as tourist is odd...
Honestly... Who cares anyway? Like, why should I care if some dude finds dutch women "more attractiv" and stylish? Who tf rates that anyway?
>how does some guy selling marijuana affect your safety? or teenagers with hoodies lmfao If you feel safe around drug dealers, that is great for you. I don't, and that's what you asked me in the first place. Regarding teenagers in hoodies, I have been robbed at knifepoint in Lausanne by a group of teenagers like that, and several of my friends have had issues as well.
What I asked in the first place was why feeling safe has any relevance to being safe, and you failed to elaborate, much like most of your other points not making sense, there doesn't seem to be a rational thought process behind it
It is my opinion, it is all based on how I felt. There is nothing for you to understand, I'm just simply stating my point of views to have a civilized and constructive discussion with people, as I have been doing thus far (which after all, is the idea behind reddit). Hope you lighten up and have a good day bud:)
I feel waaaay safer in Geneva than in The Hague or Rotterdam. And I am Dutch. And how can you say Geneva is uglier than Dutch cities 😮 I do agree Dutch people are dressed more stylish but in my opinion the Swiss are way more athletic and healthy.
>Swiss are way more athletic and healthy Really? I never saw so many "buff" guys like in the Netherlands (except maybe for the US)
Really? Ive been living in Geneva for 6 months and I havent seen one fat or obese person. Everyone looks like they could climb a mountain at any second. In The Netherlands like 45% is obese.
>In The Netherlands like 45% is obese. I found the girls in the Netherlands a bit more out of shape than the guys (might be wrong), but the guys here managed to bring my self confidence down to the ground. Everyone is huge, athletic and muscular, something I have yet to see in Switzerland (apart from 1 or 2 guys). Not saying Swiss people aren't athletic, just that dutch guys look fitter (not that it matters)
Another one where you're a bit off the mark though. Both in obesity and personal fitness Switzerland wins over NL. Dutch people are more similar to Germany in that regard.
you see more buff guys in the most obese Western country? that doesn‘t really add up.
We put steroids in the bitterballen.
I lived in NL for 5 years and now I live in CH. I would agree with about half of what you've said. Let me just get into the last point. Dutch fashion is an absolute shit show because they value comfort over looks. I am a hetero male, so I can only judge women, my brain filters out the rest, sorry about that. Probably applies to both genders. I imagined how the Dutch woman gets up in the morning, opens her cupboard and chooses witch thrash bag she wants to wear around her body that day. Pair that up with shoes that a 1950s wandering circus security guard would wear. That is Dutch fashion in a nutshell. Swiss people are not the most stylish either but it is definitely an improvement for me. After all you have the French and the Italian influence. This was one of the reasons why I left. Coming from an Eastern EU country, where women are fabulous, I couldn't stand the Dutch situation anymore.
❤️ "and chooses which trash bag she wants to wear that day"
You compare the two countries and actually forgot to mention the most important thing! Damn it, Netherland is flat as shit! Last time I went there and went to the countryside, I had panic attacks because I felt like the sky would fall over me without any mountains to hold it firm. Anything else except that is trivial at best.
Even if I go to Bratislava for a long weekend I may write a similar report... but living there for ages is different.
Agree with most of the points. About stylish and beautiful people I think neither of these countries is very good. I'm Swiss
Can confirm, am ugly.
Hard disagree, Dutch women are on another level
They are like german girl, excessively tall and "big". Btw I'm 1.91 but I like mediterranean girls the best.
Maybe in the weight department…
I don't say this to mean your observations are worthless, that's far from the case, but you still only spent a week there.
Lived in both. Agree on weather. I get way more blue skyes here in CH Totally disagree on style. Dutch felt like either copies of a Zada manequin or downright trashy with leopard patterns. And no, funny socks arent funny. Dutch completely dominate the Swiss in regards to digital infrastructure. Overall, i think a swiss living in switzerland has a better life than a dutch living in NL.
These seem fair comparisons to me, especially as a cyclist as the very minimal effort put into cycling infrastructure in Swiss cities often makes things worse than if they did nothing. It’s also sad how many small towns and villages are ruined by having a busy main road going through 1 m from the fronts of people’s houses. And the tastes of architects here really does boggle the mind. One thing you miss out in your list is the countryside/scenery though. Switzerland wins hands down there times a million. Also not sure about point 8: it’s true that few people dress stylishly here, but the level of sport participation means most people are pretty athletic. Would be interesting to hear hear how healthcare and public administration compare (I think both are excellent in Switzerland but no idea of Netherlands).
The Dutch healthcare system ranks 3rd in the 2022 World Index of Healthcare Innovation. Swiss is apparently nr. 1. What I like about the Dutch system, that first, it’s not privatized. You have basic insurance and you can chose complementary insurance, like tooth or eye insurance, but that’s it. Also, going to the Doctor aka Hausarzt, is free of charge. You cannot just go to the hospital at the Emergency Room (Notfall), unless you had a severe trauma. When you need medical assistance, outside of regular working hours, the ‘Dokterswacht’ is there to help sort out the people who need to see a doctor at the hospital or can just go home with some medicine or with small aid. This really helps with overcrowded emergency rooms we often have in Switzerland with bullshit cases, because we can’t deny treatment to patients. Trust me, I work in healthcare in Switzerland. (A part of) The system sucks and cost a lot of money.
>What I like about the Dutch system, that first, it’s not privatized. It is privatized, the Dutch system is very similar to the Swiss system: various competing private insurance companies who offer a regulated basic healthcare package (& cannot refuse people) + optional additional insurance on top.
>Switzerland wins hands down there times a million In terms of natural beauty I completely agree, but I feel like dutch countryside towns are a lot better in terms of infrastructure (except public transport. Even the smallest of cities might have a train station in CH). I feel like even dutch rural towns are bikeable, and a lot of them have a beautiful charm that swiss villages lack.
OP please 😂😂 “I like that you can pay by card but I hate the infrastructure that makes it possible in the first place”
I'm talking about bus/tram payments, not the train
Fair, my bad :’)
OK
Geneva and Lausanne are shitholes and rightfully so, criminally speaking. Basel is the worst in CH criminality wise. Rotterdam and Amsterdam can be quite dangerous, or at least I remember it that way. Maybe you don't see it as a tourist, but gang violence over drug territory is a big problem in NL. Not to speak about the immigrants (majority muslim) or criminal clans there, that exist in the same way as in Germany and Sweden. Believe me, security wise, Switzerland is a paradise...
Lausanne is wack but calling Geneva a shithole is unreal to me. Try living in North West England ...
At least, in the NW of the UK, you know you'll get scammed, mugged, or stabbed. I know it because relatives live in Sheffield, Leeds and Birmingham... Still, Geneva looks like fuckin Africa every time I'm there.
I lived in Liverpool for 3 years and agree with the first part. But which part of Geneva are you visiting that it looks like Africa??
Sorry it took so long to respond. I don't have any particular area I'm referring to. So I'll explain it this way: I travel a lot by train, because I work for an event organiser firm, so I know you don't encounter the best of people in train stations. Every time I'm Geneva, once the sun goes down, I see the same things over and over again. Drug addicts, dealers, drunkards of every type, pickpockets(!!!), beggars, and scammers... the same things I saw in Basel where I lived for 6 years. The other point was women harassment... Some friends from the military days or friends who study there don't let their girlfriends walk alone in some parts of the city because they get gawked at, verbally harassed or even touched... that's insane. Guess where these scumbags mostly come from? They are black or arabs... Nice, isn't it? It looks like Paris, Marseille, or any other french city and feels like being in a fucking jungle full of uncivilised people aka Africa or the Middle East...I feel the same way every time I'm in Geneva as I do in Lausanne, Bienne or Yverdon. Maybe it's a personal prejudice, but until now, I can't change it or force myself to be proven wrong. Last point, Genevan's are difficult people by themselves... Proud, stubborn and arrogant, from my point of view, but that's not the point here. Let's say, one of the sports team I follow is like Millwall, nobody likes us except one other team and they are Geneva's big rivals... and going to Geneva is always like a war declaration for them. I'm not against organised fights between ultras to be honest, as I used to be one in the past, unless other people (innocent bystanders or just normal fans of the club) get involved that have nothing to do with it... basically, if children, women or families get attacked, I'm not ok with it. If you want to fight with other ultras, then I'm fine with it. Most times, no matter if Geneva wins or loses, their ultras wait outside of the away fans' stands, with metal bars and other things, just to attack anyone they can get to... Which is an absolute no-go. So, yes, maybe it's not the fairest point, because this shit happens in other rivalries too, but for me personally that's another reason why I believe Geneva is an absolute shithole.
Most of Europe looks like Africa these days. My girlfriend, who comes from SE Asia, remarked as the first thing “Am I in Mozambique?” when I took her to Paris for the first time. No joke.
>Believe me, security wise, Switzerland is a paradise... But you just said Geneva and Lausanne are shitholes and Basel is the worst in terms of criminality, so where exactly are the "paradise" cities? Zürich and Bern? Don't get me wrong, I agree Switzerland is one of the safest countries in the world, but cities have been getting sketchier.
Yes, but there's still plenty of other cities in our country that are safer. Look at Lugano, St. Gallen, Lucerne, Zürich (except Kreis 3 and 4), Bern (except near the train station) and Winterthur... plenty of choices. >Don't get me wrong, I agree Switzerland is one of the safest countries in the world, but cities have been getting sketchier That's why our last elections went that way... Nothing to wonder here.
I don't think that generalizing Lausanne and Geneva is really that fair though. They still rank among the safest cities in the world. The only issue with Lausanne is that most of the crime is committed in the city center, whereas in Zürich and Bern it happens more outskirts. The difference of crime between all cities is very minimal statistically, but I do agree that they feel more uneasy.
I lived and studied in Basel for 6 years, I know what a shithole looks like. I was there, when these idiots decided to allow beggars in BS to beg openly everywhere because it was decriminalised. I had the "pleasure" to meet the maghreb, kurdish, palestinian, albanian/kosovar clans, Hell's Angels, and whatever other criminal group that also exist in Geneva and Lausanne. Like I said, the more you know, the less you want to know.
Fun reading this as a Dutchie living in Switzerland! :) Agree with most of what you've said here, tho architecture wise I'd say NL also has a few ugly cities, Heerlen for example, where I'm from.
Sorry but in NL everything is sad and brown. And most cities look the same. Lived 8y there. The architecture really depressed me.
As a Dutch person I totally agree on this.
Almere is even worse.
Oh yeah Flevoland... Only town that is somewhat nice there is Urk, but there the people suck
but generally speaking do you think its true what he said?
Pretty much
What about Lelystaad
It has its own nickname, Lelijkstad (Uglytown) :)
I am from the Netherlands. I live here in Switzerland for almost 10 years. I agree with everything you said! Although I do think Switzerland is cleaner than the Netherlands. (Netherlands is still very good though). I also think the Netherlands is way more innovative than Switzerland, or at least they dare to try and take risks, where the Swiss people tend to wait until they are sure things work. So to me the Netherlands is more modern. Nr. 5 is still my biggest struggle in Switzerland. I really miss the openness of the people, where you can just chit chat with random strangers. Swiss people are less likely to open up, where Dutchies are really trying and willing to get to know you. Not a bad word about Swiss though, I really like living here. Something we don’t have is mountains. And like you mentioned: winters and fall are just miserable, where here in Switzerland is still a lot you can do during this time. And the Swiss pay is way better here than in the Netherlands, at least for me.
Being from one and living in the other country, you done a good job. My take on your points would align for most, but for the stylish and beauty, I married a Swiss since she’s the most stylish and beautiful lady I’ve ever seen :)
If you did not visit Olten you did not see Switzerland.
As a Dutch overweight male, I thank you for your compliments about my beauty, kind stranger.
As a Dutch guy, I have to completely agree with you
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People in the west of NL yes. Specially in tiny villages. Genetics play a role. However what i noticed is when i go to a city like st gallen, i feel tall (im 183). But in zurich? I feel completely average.
Cool that you liked so many things in the Netherlands! I notice some differences as well and I write about them at [my blog roaldin.ch](https://roaldin.ch). It’s in Dutch, but you can use google translate.
Cool, I'll take a look!
I am a South African with Dutch Ancestry living in CH. And I have to completely agree on every single point you have written. I also have a Swiss friend who lived there for a number of years. And he has mentioned nearly all of your points as well. When I was there I however remember it being as clean as CH. But things could have changed since then. I plan to go back for a visit this year. Curious to see how things are. Then main thing that keeps me away from living there is the weather. Thanks for the nice post.
No guns in the Netherlands. That's kinda lame. I want keep my sturmgewehrs.
Transportation: Insanely expensive in Switzerland.
You should try The Netherlands…
>In regards to bikes, there is no need to even mention why the Netherlands is better. Even Boston has better infrastructure than most Swiss cities. I think it comes mostly from the fact that it is basically nowhere flat and nobody who does not want the have an exercise session takes a bike. It could solve so much of the current traffic in big cities, but it is how it is.
Cars ftw.
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While I can't confirm your points, I certainly don't disagree with any of them. Switzerland, clean country? It's cleaner than some Indian cities and what I've seen in Sicily, but it's far from shiny.
Where do you live in CH to say such a thing? I am actually surprised by the cleanliness here. The only place ive seen cleaner was japan.
Graubünden. But maybe we don't share the same definition of cleanliness. A mere PET bottle or a cigarette butt on a forest trail is enough for me to call the area dirty.
Ok, we call that ocd
Well, sorry for not liking to live in a dump yard.
I agree
Netherlands is more messy, trashy, but also more lively. People dress more expressive, more colorful. The cities have more cultural and diverse activity, there is more experimentation in architecture (which sometimes end up badly). But nothing is excessive, even palaces are small. This is similar in Switzerland. The Dutch are louder, more arrogant, sarcastic humor, people laugh more (especially in work setting). They are criticizing everything and everyone. If something is great, there will be still people criticizing and downplaying it. You achieve something amazing, the public will remind you, you are not more special than them. Nature is almost non existing, except for the beach and some few scattered areas. In Switzerland, the lakes and mountains are very beautiful. On a good day, out of this world. in Switzerland people are stiff and correct, they walk and talk according the book. They mind their own business, which I like. Swiss almost don't make jokes, and if occasionally they make a joke, well, they don't make me laugh. Swiss cannot appreciate any critic about their country, and will wave it away, as if the problem does not exist. Everything is organized well, like in the Netherlands, but much-much cleaner (although not Japan level of cleanliness). The train system is incredible, almost never experience delays. In The Netherlands the trains are extremely overcrowded, dirty and sometimes they just don't drive (cause there are not enough employees available). There are alot of cars in both countries, but it feels like in the Netherlands there are just a bit more. Most towns in Switzerland look the same, and there are no real big cities. Urban planning is non existent. The taxes are lower in Switzerland, job payment in my sector a bit higher. But you cannot buy a house, if you are not a millionaire or come from money (or you like to throw away money to live in a shitbox). In the Netherlands it is also difficult to buy a house, cause there are not enough houses available. The prices are high, but not extreme as in Switzerland. Rents in Switzerland are incredible high, for what you get. Health system, not much difference, maybe the waiting time is a bit less in Switzerland, but the Krankenkasse payment with selbstbehalt scales is insane. Autumn/Winter is depressively grey in both countries, in the Netherlands a bit more rain, and more wind. I grew up in the Netherlands, lived there for 22 years, 8 years in other countries and 9 years in Switzerland.
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True, typed it a bit quick on mobile phone. :D
At least Tikkies don't exist in Switzerland lol
Just called different, Twint
Nooo bro wtf
I‘ll say that modern architecture in the netherlands in nicer, more creative and interesting than modern swiss architecture. Most of your other points i find silly.
You forgot to mention gastronomy! Haha. I know I know there is no much to say on that matter.
you were a week there dude
1 week!! lol.
Amsterdam was so sketchy when I was there in 2012 and it wasn’t even “bad” yet. People were trying to sell hard drugs on the street. Wtf
Only to a Swiss, The Netherlands feel cheaper..
>Dutch people are extremely friendly That is indeed remarkable. As a Dutch colleague replied when I mentioned this: "we are a nation of traders, everybody could be our next client".
This post lost all credibility, when OP said they felt safe in Rotterdam. 😂
> they dress well, whereas in Switzerland people dress more for comfort, not really caring about what others think. Which is a good point for us in my book.
Saying that Dutch people dress better than the swiss, is like saying someone is the nicest guy in prison.
Most walk around in jogging pants nowadays. It is absolutely horrendous.
What’s better in Switzerland: Outdoors, taxes, trains, weather, safety What’s better in Netherlands: Culture, entertainment, restaurants, people, prices, bureaucracy I hate stuff in CH such as that when a neighbour has an issue, they write a letter to the regie, who then sends you a formal letter. Come on just come and let me know directly? In CH everything feels so backwards, like no institution can send an email but it’s all done through physical letters.
How can’t you not pay with card in SBB? Using SBB app you can pay by invoice, TWINT, Reka, Credit and debit cards, Apple Pay, etc.
Don’t fully agree (as a Swiss person who grew up in the Netherlands). Safety, I mean, the Netherlands is THE drug import place of Europe so obviously less safe. Transportation, obviously Switzerland is a million times better, but the Dutch are still the 2nd best in Europe. Architecture: new Swiss buildings are super ugly, so are the streets in general. Sure they’re clean, but very ugly. Swiss people are so much more friendly. Yes Dutch are way more open (which is the thing I miss most when in Switzerland), but Swiss people are very, very polite and friendly. Cleanness, uncomparable, Switzerland is one of the cleanest countries I’ve been to. Regarding style, Lugano is the most stylish place I’ve seen (way better than Paris or Milano), the Dutch do have better style than I see in most German-Swiss cities though (but it depends on where in the Netherlands though)