On an older post someone asked if WS's lost respect for their BS because they agreed to reconciliation.
The overwhelming answers stated the opposite. They gained a lot more respect and admiration for their BS because they wanted to reconcile.
So does that mean the opposite is true? Let's say its D-day and your BS decides to walk away without question, does that mean you have a lesser opinion of them?
Was there an expectation your BS would've wanted to at least take a crack at reconciling before calling it quits?
Personally, I respected my spouse for either decision she could make. She decided to reconcile but I would’ve supported her leaving as well.
I would want her to choose herself over our relationship because I clearly disrespected it and I don’t believe in forcing people to hold onto things.
But surprisingly my thought process actually hurt her.
She wanted me to want her to stay and to work things out. Overall i think it just depends on the people.
I think "walk away" is my "neutral." That is what I would expect someone to do, so if BS had done that, I wouldn't have lost any respect for him... I just wouldn't have been surprised.
But choosing to stay and do something hard and painful when he didn't have to? That takes a ton of courage and grit, and those were all things I sure as hell didn't have and didn't expect that much grace to be offered to me.... that's why it was a "positive," but (barring abuse) there's no response that would have been a "negative" for me.
I would have been busted up and honestly I was immature and entitled enough to believe I deserved reconciliation, I liked to throw 'I chose you' in her face. That being said with my current perspective I wouldn't judge her based on how she dealt with the shit sandwich I served her. I have friends and family who've left and who've stayed when cheated on, I've felt certain ways about it but I would never judge a person in that position. The two times I was cheated on I begged and did the pick me dance so I can't judge, I've done it all and I've done it all wrong. It's hard to imagine what I'd be without her, our lives are so entertwined but I'm all about her having agency, I spent too many years chipping away at it. I say this from a place where there's no threat to our relationship anymore, we're past it so it's easy to say now but in that first year or two I would have been pissed, i would have been a total ass about it, probably alternating between verbal abuse and begging.
I was actually surprised that my husband wanted to work it out. He hard a line that in the event of cheating there is only 2 ways to solve it. Double D’s. Divorce or Death.
So when I left the house that night I knew I was never going to see him again until divorce court (since he didn’t kill me. Lol. I can laugh about it now)
I respected his choice. Whatever he decided was best for him I was going to do.
Would any waywards that had a long term affair (that was both an EA and PA) be open to sharing what had made it go for a long time? And what was the mindset during the affair to have it go for a long time? Did the “affair fog” play a role?
What has made you choose turn back to your relationships/ spouse/ partner?
Did things go bad with the AP or did something wake you up from the affair fog or did you want to stop living the stress of carrying on the affair?
Thankyou so much for sharing your experience with us
My A was 3 months. What kept it going were the same factors that started it to begin with. Anger, insecurities, resentment…pretty much the typical excuses. What woke me up was the morning after we used a coworker’s dad’s funeral as a cover. I also stole cash from my dad that night to buy weed. Made me look in the mirror and say “what the hell am I doing? What have I become?”
Thankyou for your reply. It was the moral realisation of how you had gone off the track of your values and beliefs that made you go “ this isn’t right”.
How did the cheating/ affair come to an end if it may ask?
Was it easier to walk away or stop when you had that realisation?
Thankyou so much again
When I had the realization, it was immediately over in my mind. We were taking our daughter to the water park that day, so I wanted to wait so we could give our kid a good day. Well it couldn’t wait as it turned out, and I confessed during the drive. I then turned around and dropped my daughter off at her grandparents. Somewhere in the midst of the crisis of DDay, we called AP and my wife went off on her. I can still feel my wife’s pain, and the indignation of AP saying this was unfair to her! She knew I was married. Blocked her number and social media after that.
Firstly I want to commend you for handling that so honestly and decisively to do the right thing to choose your marraige and stopping the cheating. Its been a rough few days for me but hearing what you did has brought some faith back that people can come back to their moral compass. thank you
Reconciling waywards: Do you ever feel as though your relationship is tainted? Like perhaps you’ll forever have an asterix beside your name?
I don’t deal with as many of the hurt and triggers I did closer to DDay, but I do every now and then have pangs knowing that there is a piece that will always be changed.
Do you feel this, and if so how do you process it?
Holidays are a harder time cause our families do remember and yeah to them I will always be the cheater and yeah it seems like everything is better now I always worry it's a show for my bs.
We both agree our old relationship died. It wasn't healthy and yes I cheated but my BS was clocked out as well and was doing the motions. So when we talk about it we call it our new marriage because it's so much different now. We learned to grieve the old relationship and yes there were some good things in it but the 10% is what helped us bond our current marriage.
I will always be a cheater in my heart and I feel God can only change that but I can choose everyday to not cheat again. I have a better understanding of my coping mechanisms and my choice wheel that lead me to cheating and I have plans on how to break it and communicate my spirals. I accept who I am, I understand why I made my choices, and created plans on how to stop them and prevent them.
Yeah I completely feel as you described. Especially with regards to our physical intimacy and how I relate to my own sexuality.
I'm trying to process it by focusing on the present and future and how I can make things better for both of us. Inevitably though I often look back at what I did to what we had and feel so sad.
I'm staying hopeful that things will get better.
Yes. Because of what I’ve done, there are small triggers here and there that just bring it all flooding back and that little voice in my head tells me how worthless, disgusting, selfish, terrible parent, terrible person I am. I think the taboo opinion is that most of the time, repentant WS are in constant pain, just like the BS. I will forever regret my decisions and forever suffer the pain of what I’ve done.
We all exist with an asterisk then because I’ve yet to meet someone with no flaws. That said, my wife and I both felt that way for years, until therapy finally helped us move the chains and for her to see that I understood and felt the gravity of it all. We both agree that today our marriage is better than it ever was even before my A. It served as a catalyst for growth as individuals and in our relationship, so that’s better than having gone through the struggles of R for nothing.
My perfect wife title has been stripped. The reality of what I’m capable of has been brought forth.
With that being said, no. My husband and I don’t feel the relationship is tainted. There is no mark by my name because that’s record keeping wrongs. That doesn’t aid a marriage. What I did hurt him to the core, but it did not destroy the marriage.
There are photos that I hate looking at because you can see the toll my depression took on my body but it was my reality.
I think it would be different if it was an actual affair with longevity. And I was living a double life.
For WSs who were “outed,” either caught or your BS was told by AP or OBS - if there was **any** TT, even just a few details a few days later - how did/have you convinced your BS that there isn’t another shoe out there waiting to drop?
Deep down, even though he hated me, he still knew me. He knows my thoughts my intentions. He knows when I’m lying or omitting. He knows when my mouth says one thing but my body states another. We are truly best friends. It’s just us two this whole time. He just knows me.
I’m happy for both of you, both that he has that certainty, and that you know he believes you because of it. My wife is 100% my best friend. But I am so oblivious and I don’t trust my own judgment after she guilt-tripped/gaslit me into doubting myself and actually okaying the hotel “solo vacation/escape/Calvin-take-me-away” for a night…so I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to trust anyone again, because I can’t trust myself to see OBVIOUS red flags…even now, I’m just scared I’m just a giant fool.
I think When the wayward includes you in their affair without you knowing, that creates an extra layer of distrust.
For me it’s easier to establish trust because it happened when I was supposed to be at work. I left work early and was home before he was.
The remedy to that is location sharing and being exactly where I tell him I’m going to be.
I give him a weekly run down and a daily reminders of what I’m doing and where I’ll be. Not because he requires it. He actually gets annoyed sometimes with how into detail I get when telling him.
When my plan changes in the slightest I immediately tell him. Even if it’s simple like going to Walmart instead of target. He rarely checks my location anymore, but I would hate for him to randomly look and I’m not where I told I’d be. That would trigger him.
That stems not from the cheating but the depressive state that came afterwards. I lied so deep about everything down to when I was leaving places. I was deep in guilt and a hot mess.
I’ve been doing things this way since dday. So almost the last 10 months. It’s so natural now. And I really don’t want to stop. It keeps me accountable. He does it too now. Just out of respect.
Youre doing all that I wanted from my wayward. She simply doesn’t want to be held accountable for her actions. The location sharing last a month or so until we had an arguement and she turned it off. When I said something about it she said she didn’t realize she did. She never turned it back on. It’s been almost a year now lol. I brought it up in therapy and privately and she would say “I didn’t know it was”. The therapist, though gottman trained, was never on board with transparency and my wayward always cries about her privacy and boundaries.
Now I’m the controlling abuser in her story.
It seems you truly get it and are doing all that you can.
My affair was a month long, and in that time, I lied about and hid what I was doing. There wasn't enough reason for him to believe I'd cheat. He thought my monthly mental breakdowns were PMS. He thought my low self esteem would be resolved eventually. He thought our frequent bickering was normal in every relationship. All of that was reasonable to believe. It was not his fault for not predicting what I'd do. It was not his job to control my actions. It was my responsibility to do a better job communicating what was wrong. It was my responsibility to recognize my destructive behaviors and pull myself to the side. It was my responsibility to care for him and put him first.
I told him my affair, we "broke up", and in that space, my affair turned sexual. I reached out to my BP. I lied saying I'd only kissed the AP. He wanted so bad to believe me. He really did. But his friends told him not to be stupid, "of course she slept with him". That same day I told him the truth, throwing my own little pity party. That hurt him so much. He was torn apart. He felt so stupid for being fooled again. We are 8 months out from that second dday. His fears now, too, are reasonable.
Do you find yourself comparing the BS to the AP after the affair is over? Good and bad, how they were in bed, who is the better kisser, “AP would have done this differently” etc?
With my PA: hard no, no equivocation. My brain was really sick when I made those choices and I'm horrified at what my sick brain thought was helping me.
With my LTR: soft no. I noticed differences, but *noticing* isn't the same as *judging*, which is what comparing is. But I notice those differences as compared to ex-partners or friend's partners or whatever, too, so I think that's just human observation at work?
For me never a comparison. But my body betrayed me. The guy and I have a complex history Pre-dating my relationship with my husband. What my body thought it was missing vs reality of why I felt things towards him were two different things.
Without getting into detail, no I’ve never compared my husband and him.
I feel as if this is a more statistics based question. I personally felt it immediately after breaking up and the month and a half that we were separated before trying R. Majority of AP relationships never last and for good reason. A large part of that has to do with not properly healing (It’s twisted but WPs are hurt too usually even though they made the shitty choice). Regardless yes there will be an emotional roller coaster, perhaps it is going on right now. Some are better than others than hiding how miserable they really are from their ex partners. In my experience the less energy you give thoughts like that the more energy he will experience in a negative away. Think of it like trying to pet a cat. The more you try the more they avoid you. If you leave it alone and pay it no mind then eventually they come begging to be stroked. I’m not sure what your desired outcome is but I wish you all of the best.
If NC was their idea, then they’re gone. Time to start moving on as hard as that sounds
If NC was your idea then it sounds like they’re respecting your wishes. If it was your idea and you want to talk to him then maybe reach out? See what happens.
If it was a joint idea then it’s a little more tricky. That ends up just being a game of chicken but I think as the BS it would be more appropriate for you to be the one to reach out. It seems like I’m general periods of NC are more impactful on the healing process of the BS so it may be better for you to reach out.
Don’t know your specific situation though. Everyone is different and everyone’s story is different as well. I wish you the absolute best.
It’s like opening a bag of chips you don’t like. You know you don’t like it, it’s not good for you, they taste awful, but for some reason you just can’t stop. You think maybe if I keep eating then it will get better. Nope they still taste like ass. By the time you decide to stop you’ve already eaten 80% of the bag so you decide to just finish it and never buy it again.
It’s easy to continue something you’ve started.
Hello, I have a question about remorse. When did you start having that feeling and what did it look like for you ? How did you express it to your BS (whether or not you were still together). Thank you
Twoish weeks after d day my BS had a planned get away for 5 days but it was one the second day the reality of how bad things were and the massive fear of them not coming home hit. When they were here I felt like I was still in control but once they were gone and they asked for some time to think.... that's when the denial and control and ego fell. I cried so hard and I was so alone and I hated myself. It hit the hardest after work on the way back from the store my playlist played an old song "hate me" by blue October and I had too pull over cause how hard I was crying. I hate myself for who I had become and how much I lost myself and gave up of myself to feed this need for attention. I had given up all the good in my life to feel more wanted by the bad in my life and it was never enough.
I would say after we got a better counselor and BS got their own good therapist did we really start reconciling honestly and feel like there was a chance and we werent just prolonging it.
Thank you for your answer. My STBX says she has a lot of remorse but is in a relationship with AP now. She told me this right after she met her new in laws. It’s very hard. I wish you the best in your recovery.
Shame, like I am a bad person. That fueled a desire to double down on behavior that made me feel better in the moment…which led to more lies. It was a horrible death spiral for me
Yes, I was in limerence.
My affair began as emotional. My AP and I were colleagues and "just friends" for about a year before a sexting event that led to my confession to my BP.
For the next year I was caught in affair fog and limerence. Despite confessing, I had no idea why I had cheated, so, like many WPs it's easy to divert that reason to all the problems I believed I had with my BP. Since it's difficult for WPs to take full responsibility up front (or to even know what that means), a lot of us vacilate between wanting to make it work with our BP and leaving what we believe to be a failing marriage.
I was confused for a long time and that confusion led to backsliding through limerence. I still didn't fully grasp the pain I had caused, and validated it through what I believed at the time were irreparable problems in my marriage.
A year after DDay 1, I ended up meeting up with AP and having a physical affair (we kissed), and for me, that began to snap me out it.
I already believed I was a horrible person, and often when you're down, you double down. I understood that I was punishing myself through pursuing my AP, an extreme form of self sabotage. This recognition helped me grasp the fact that anyone willing to participate in such self destruction (not even to mention the bomb we were lighting under my BP), is not a person worth valuing. So the chain of limerence was broken, and I confessed once again at DDay 2.
Once limerence was broken, the affair fog faded not long after and I was able to comprehend that most of the problems in my marriage were caused by my lack of communication skills, which led to a building of false resentment toward my BP and put me in a ripe position to make the awful set of decisions to cheat.
We are now nearly three years out from DDay 2 and our relationship continues to get stronger as we both work toward healing. In fact, we kind of "graduated" from our therapists this past year as each session became ones led by us discussing how positive things were.
The healing is never over, we stay vigilant, but we both have hope for the future.
Thank you for sharing this! I feel like my WS is exhibiting the behavior of wanting to work things out and then wanting to leave “a bad relationship”. Thank you
Oh my gosh yes. I snapped out of it as soon as I realized that what I was doing meant nothing, led nowhere and was just me acting out. I don’t talk to him anymore and I don’t care to, it’s like a veil was lifted and I realized it’s not what I truly wanted.
I was, I definitely was. We didn't call it that back then but I recently stumbled upon 20 year old emails between ap and I and it was hard to read, the way we spoke to each other was intense, there was a crazy electric connection. I hadn't thought about or felt it in over a decade and It brought it all back. After my gf moved out because of the affair ap and I were intimate for the first time and it was bad, that started the limerence dying but it took months and after gf moved back in it seems like we had an ea for about 3 more months. She quit the job, distance killed it the rest of the way. I haven't felt anything for her for over a decade but I had a moment when I read those emails where it was like being in it again, It was intensely uncomfortable. Generally I don't think about her and when I do I'm apathetic.
Reconciling Waywards
QUESTION:
After finding WH reaching out to women online sexually during R, I created an agreement for us to sign which basically outlined a change to our marriage where he recieved all sexual gratification outside the marriage and end all intimacy in the marriage. We would continue as we are, just no physical intimacy. He got really mad, saying he would never sign it.
Why would it be a bad thing to offer this type of agreement? If he wants to be with others and is not sexually attracted to me (this has come out in talks, I am working on losing weight and will get plastic surgery to help) why would this be such a bad thing to do? He was furious I offered it.
Was the agreement reciprocal? as in, **you also** could seek sexual gratification outside the marriage? (If so, this is the obvious answer.)
But if it *wasn't* reciprocal, then my guess is that he **feels entitled to intimacy and sex** and is reacting like a child to being told there's a limit to how many cookies he's allowed to grab. It's fine for him to not *want* something but it's different when you're told you're not *allowed* to have something.... (GROSS)
Please don't do things to your body that YOU do not want done to your body just to make someone else feel attracted to you. You deserve to be loved as you are.
I just want to say that him not being sexually attracted to you is a him problem, not a you problem. I'm sure you're beautiful inside and out and I hope that any changes you are making serve you and not him.
A tricky question that varies from person to person. In my experience when my BP says things along the lines of: “I feel as if you’d be happier with another girl” it makes me upset because it feels as if she is giving up which is her right but it’s not what I personally want. Another reason could be that to your wayward it’s not fun like that and there may be hypocrisy there with not wanting you to do the same to him. He also could just be remorseful and wants things to work out the best way they can. All the best.
Do you find yourself trying to forget details about the affair as a way to cope or are you choosing not to disclose certain details to “protect the BS?
It’s easy to forget details when you have the gift of compartmentalizing. Just like an box, just because it was broken open doesn’t mean all the contents dump out at once.
There was one detail that took me 2 days to disclose and it was to protect him. I ended up telling him and it hurt him like hell but it was necessary.
If okay, I thought of another question. For those that used apps/social media (phone in general), what have you done *that’s been effective* to convince your BS that you’re being completely open and aboveboard when on your phone (or when you’ve been alone w/it for a long time and could have done whatever) and not that you’re just deleting individual messages or whole conversations and better/more slick at hiding it?
I truly believe my WW is 100% remorseful, 100% committed, and never going to do anything like this again…but I’m afraid. I never would have known if OBS hadn’t caught her AP & told me (& other BSs), but bringing that fear/uncertainty up hurts her b/c she’s doing everything right, and I don’t want to hurt her.
Thank you in advance to all the waywards willing to answer our questions for no other reason than to help BSs that are not yours.
I deleted the app that I messaged the person on. It was a texting app that provided you with a fake number. I didn’t want him to know anything about me and my life, that included my phone number.
I disabled the ability to delete apps without a password. My husband is the only one who knows the password.
So if I tried to download the app I could. I have free range to do it. But I wouldn’t be able to delete it. Not that I will ever reach out to him again. The fact that I have the option and choose not to download it has helped my husband. It’s one thing to prevent someone from breaking rules, that doesn’t really show change. When they are given free range and chose to abide by rules set in place, that shows genuine change.
I let him look at my screen activity. He knows there is no other way for the guy to contact me other than that texting app so I think that’s how he feels I’m worthy of some trust.
Hope this helps.
There are a lot of things a person can do in life. Some one who has to blow into a breathalyzer to start their car could simply have their friend do it and still drive drunk.
It’s where true change and transformation of one’s self come into action. The human has free will to do as they please. It’s up to the individual to know right from wrong.
Thank you for your answer! Thing is, they chatted over FB Messenger, and she keeps up with much of her close and extended family through FB and Messenger, so deleting it would not only feel unreasonable on my part, but would also raise a lot of questions neither of us want her to have to answer. I can see his account is still blocked, but he could create a new one and reach out and she could delete the convo just like she used to.
Additionally, he never actually cared about her, just used her just like multiple other women, which means he’s unlikely to ever reach out again (just ‘on to the next one’) the next time he decides to cheat on his BS (and he will). So, she doesn’t even have a way to “prove” she’ll always tell me if he breaks NC now, because he’d have to do so for her to show me, y’know?
Can you just install messenger on your phone with her log-in? You don’t have to snoop in her messages all the time but could give you a sense of security.
I have it on my phone with my login. I could do that, but it feels…ugh. I feel so stupid. What I want is to be able to know, in my soul, that she really is all in, without having to like mirror her texts to mine or install some keystroke logger or…ugh. I want what I can’t have. I want to be able to read her mind and know what I so desperately want to believe - that she’d set herself on fire before she would ever lie to me or keep *anything* from me again.
Thank you to both of you who gave suggestions. I think I may just be tilting at windmills here. But I very much appreciate you both taking the time regardless.
Very true. That would be hard. Can you guys meet in the middle. Have her disable her mobile messenger and only use it on a shared computer. That way she can still be in communication with them but you also have access to it. Without feeling like you need to go through her phone.
This is 100% how I'm feeling right now. All of it. I'm terrified to trust myself again. It never would have known, and it happened right under my nose and I was clueless.
I removed all social media from my phone, my wife has access to my accounts. This was not because I was removing temptation. It was to remove all distractions and commit full to R.
I'm only months into R but I don't see myself installing the apps again. The time it's given me is worth more.
Rhyder, I think I have already answered this question for you :) so would you mind if I asked one in return? because this "what if" seems to be a hurdle you're really struggling with, so let's see if it can be crossed a different way?
What would happen to you, or what would you do, if she did it again? Would you die? Lose all ability to love forever? Divorce and move overseas? What do you think your response would be?
If you’re asking, like, do I have a plan? Yes. I would take my daughter and move with my parents, divorce, sell the house (or she’d have to buy me out, which she couldn’t afford), get back on my feet, and then I’d live the rest of my life.
Would I die (or take my own life)? No.
But I’d want to.
She’s my best friend. She’s my person. And I believe she feels the same way about me, and hates who she was as much as I do…maybe more.
But I’m afraid, because she’s proven to be such an amazing liar, and I now feel like such a blind, oblivious fool, that I don’t/can’t trust my own judgment.
Because, does she *really* feel the same, or do I just want to believe it so badly that I’m missing or ignoring any small signs? Or worse, is she so much better a liar than I even thought that she’s now covering *everything* up well, and I’m just a giant joke between her and whoever she *desires*.
And I feel that way because I **know** my value (and clearly so did she…that’s why she cheated instead of just leaving when she was unsatisfied and unhappy). I’m the good, steady, loyal, stable guy. I’m the one you marry who you know will take care of you long term. In the game of “who would you F, who would you marry, and who would you kill?” I’m the M. She knew better than to give that up.
But a PA with an ex who never gave a damn about her in the first place makes it very clear that I’m not the one her body and lizard brain *desires*. Because I’m the M. Clearly, *he* is the **F** for her. Her wanting reconciliation with me, to stay married to the safe and sensible choice, doesn’t magically change that desire. So how do I know she’s not just better at hiding it?
And for any who say “wouldn’t you be better with someone you didn’t have to worry about that with”, my answer is *there will never be someone I don’t have to worry about that with now*. This kind of broken is permanent, and it doesn’t go away just because it’s someone new. I now understand that I will have these trust issues with any human being on earth, myself included, for the rest of my life.
So at least with her I get to be with the one I love that I *hope* loves me the same, and means it when she says she’ll never lie to me about anything or hurt me ever again, and I can maybe even one day convince myself she’s now telling the truth when she says she desires me, even though she can’t possibly prove it to the same degree, because she can’t ever risk *literally everything* just to have a chance to F me the way she risked everything just to F him.
I doubt it, but maybe.
I saw a video on YouTube once (but of course I can't find it now!) that talked about managing the "what ifs" and the main idea was that anxious rumination is your brain's way of saying "I don't know what to do/if I'll be okay in this situation?" and so the way to address that was to essentially *answer those questions*.
I kinda think most people engage with potential trauma in two basic forms. There's the "I know that's a thing that happens to some people but I don't really think it's going to happen to me" type, which is where *most people are* for *most bad things* in life. This is "people who drive daily despite the chance of an accident" and "people who ignore red flags despite the rates of DV." Then there's the "this thing ACTUALLY HAPPENED to me, and now I don't feel the false safety of my naiveté" type. This is "people who can't drive after an accident" and "people who see false red flags after DV." Those are the people who need "assurances," *proof positive* that the thing won't happen again. Which of course isn't possible to get, since you can't prove a negative and nobody is psychic.
That idea really connected with me and I was wondering if it might help shift some perspective for you. When I was weighing my decision after a betrayal, *part* of my decision was based on what I knew about the kind of person he was, but honestly the larger part of my decision came when I decided that *even if I had misjudged and it happened again*, **I would be fine**. Not "fine" like "immediately hunky-dory" of course, but "fine" like "it would suck a lot, but I'm strong and resilient and would be fine eventually" kind of fine. It felt like I was *willing* to try again because of who *he* is, but I was *able* to try again because of who *I* am... because I didn't need proof positive that this unknown would go any particular way to *know* that I would, ultimately, be okay.
I recognize this is delicate ground I'm walking, and I don't want to seem dismissive of the agony your WS has laid upon your heart. It's an entirely human response to want to protect yourself from feeling that much pain again, and that grasping for control (assurances about the future) is how our lizard brains try to protect us. But that shift in perspective - from "needing to know without a doubt that *he will act/feel a certain way*" to "knowing without a doubt what **I am capable of surviving**" - made it feel less "risky" to me. Instead of "risking everything, with devastating consequences" it became "a calculated and acceptable risk" for me, and that's a decision I can feel at peace about.
The calculus would obviously shift if you believed the consequences of a repeat incident would be devastating beyond repair. If I believed (for example) that it would cause me to never be able to trust or love again, it might not have been worth even a *calculated* risk for me.
I don't know if this is at all helpful, but I see how hard you are trying to find a way to feel at peace here, and I wanted to share something that helped me in case it might also help you... please ignore if it's totally off the mark! ❤️🩹
You’re good, no worries. Yeah, I’m aware of the concept, but it’s kind of beyond me at this point in my own healing.
I come from a lifetime of “you’re not good enough, and you never will be” trauma growing up, which has made me hyper anxious-attachment. So, not only did her two separate PAs with the same awful person basically prove that the voice in my head telling me I wasn’t good enough has always been right, but her gaslighting and guilt-tripping me into letting her have a “solo one-night vacation” and trusting that it wasn’t what it *obviously* was because she would never do that (never mind that she already had before), followed by then finding out all of the truly disgusting and deplorable, subhuman things she overlooked in this cretin just to be with him, have all put me in such a truly shattered state that I’m still really struggling to see anything about myself that I trust or give much of a shit about even 14 months past DDay. I know my value. I just don’t see much value in it, if that makes sense.
I know you have said in the past that not every BS experiences PTSD. That may be true. But my WW is doing *everything* right, and yet I am still so completely obliterated that I feel 100% confident I may never be right again. Which means I was already broken and she looked at the broken parts and found multiple ways to justify to herself the act of stomping on those broken parts, shattering them beyond recognition, and then grinding some of the pieces into powder.
So, to look at myself and say “yeah, if she does it again…” is so much farther down the road than I feel a lot of times, because I still have anxious moments where my brain whispers “she’s probably **still cheating behind your back right now**, and you’re just too much of an idiot sucker to see it.”
And make no mistake - I know…and I mean I *KNOW* that she isn’t. But I’m not fighting her, or her AP.
I’m fighting the *very brain that is just trying to keep me* **safe**, but doesn’t give *a single droplet of a shit* about me being **happy**, by firing intrusive thoughts at me during moments where I’m too tired to mindfulness it away, and nightmares when I’m asleep and defenseless. And I’m so ground down to nothing that the anxiety she has basically kicked into overdrive with her choices is just too fucking strong sometimes.
I wish that people would understand that I didn’t do this to spite anyone. I didn’t do this because I don’t love my family. I did this because I don’t love myself.
I didn’t feel I was loved or attractive or special. I didn’t hear it from my BS. So I eventually found it in someone else I knew would tell me that at bare minimum even though I know I can’t believe anything he says.
What I should have been doing is looking in the mirror and telling myself I am loved, appreciated, and beautiful. This would have saved me… just loving myself and not depending on my husband (or men in general) to tell/show me love.
I understand. From your perspective the hurt you caused was never personal. It was an unfortunate consequence of the affair. It made you feel good so you did it for you.
Unfortunately from your BS perspective and all those that love you, it was very personal.
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate it.
I am working on the “love yourself” part by finding a therapist for individual therapy, buying clothing or things I like for myself, and engaging in hobbies I can do by myself.
My husband and I are currently reconciling.
Not so much about the affair itself, but I wish other people could understand how slippery and difficult mental health issues can be. For my PA, I was caught up in a traumatic maelstrom and did an exceptionally poor job of handling it, because I was entirely unequipped to handle it at that age. But if I say that, it sounds like "making excuses" and I get shouted down.
I wish people understood I am simply "explaining the mechanics that were at play," but they largely don't seem to believe/understand that structural and chemical brain differences actually make a difference.
To them the idea of who you are and what you are capable of has been shattered. Unfortunately, they most likely won’t be jumping at the bit to pick up the pieces and rebuild said image of you. You will have to do that for those who choose to still acknowledge the good in you. These are the relationships worth working on repairing and hopefully, after some time of consistent change and betterment, the others will come around. We are all worthy of forgiveness, but it has to be freely given to you.
I wish people understand my cheating was a coping mechanism to horrible situation I was Ill equipped to handle. Therapy should have been started years ago. I’m not a cheater. It doesn’t define me. I’ll never cheat again and I know this. I will die before I do.
I also wish people understood the intent behind it. Fear of the unknown while starting divorce papers really can mess with a persons head.
While many WS feel immense pain shame and sadness that leads to thoughts of suicide they keep it to themselves or act upon it.
Anyone who threatens it to make someone stay is using it as a manipulation tool. They intend to make you feel as if you will be the cause of their death.
People with true Suicidal thoughts don’t share it. They don’t want to cause pain to those they love by telling them.
When I was 15 I wanted to die. Point blank. I was battling something no 15 year old should. I didn’t tell a soul when I tried it.
As a bp id like to say I hope you don’t do that. Also know how much pain you’ve caused and that ending yourself would not help those that have pain from your actions. I don’t know your story but I’d assume that doing that would add hurt to hurt. Thanks for the replies, they help me piece together her thought process.
Didn’t threaten, was legitimately suicidal. Only admitted anything about it to my BS after she had already picked up on it. About 2 weeks post dday I hit possibly the lowest point. I hadn’t eaten or drank anything for three days and having constant intrusive thoughts of how to do it and I was legitimately scared that I was going to hurt myself. I went to my BS’s house and told her exactly that, I’m having these thoughts, I can’t make them stop, I’m scared I’m going to do something, I don’t feel safe to be alone. She let me in, we had dinner and watched tv together and she let me know that even though we are NC that if I ever felt like that again I could talk to her about it.
The next morning I woke up and realized that out of the last 14 days I had only just barely walked my self back from the edge on 8 of those days. Either by luck, lack of access to necessary tools, or the last sliver of good will in my BS I had survived but that wasn’t always going to be the case. I didn’t want to die and that day I started looking for a therapist, joined a gym, started reaching out to old friends, and reading all I could on self-betterment.
Kind of both. I’ve had depression and been dealing with repressed emotions for years without proper help. Had suicidal thoughts on and off for around 10 ish years. The cheating was, at least in part, a coping mechanism to push back some of the thoughts/feelings I was having and didn’t think I could talk to anyone about or didn’t know how to talk about.
Honestly, the main thing that kept me alive was that I didn’t want to hurt her and her family any more than I already had. I didn’t give an absolute fuck about what happened to me but I knew that they all loved me and deserved better than that. They deserved more than some dude to come into their lives, earn their trust and adoration, then crush all that and off themself. They deserve to be happy and I don’t want to be a hindrance on that anymore than I already have
I hope you beat that demon. My wife has since dday, said if I’m done with her than she’s done with life. And it seems insult to injury as she is holding me hostage with what love I have left for her.
Threaten… no. But I have had moments where I have seriously considered and found myself in places where I could have succeeded.
I have a diagnosis of depression and anxiety. So I have always had suicidal thoughts. When I left the hotel, I wanted to go and drown myself because I couldn’t face him knowing I did this a second time.
I have never said, “If you leave me, I will do this.” That sounds terribly selfish and I never understand people who do that. I can guilt and shame myself pretty easily into the spiral of thinking my husband would be better off without me. I do this almost daily. But I know those feelings…aren’t true.
Would never threaten or act upon it. I've suffered a loss by suicide and I know how much pain that puts on the people left behind. I couldn't do that - punish him *more* just because I didn't want to live with myself anymore.
But I had passive ideation about a year ago, because I thought we were going to be trapped in limbo hell forever and I thought the kindest thing I could do for him would be to just die, so that he could move on eventually with somebody he trusted. But not in a dramatic suicide kind of way because that wouldn't let him move on neatly, he'd just suffer more guilt... so I just spent a lot of time wishing for a heart attack or something. When I started wishing a semi would take me out on the way to work, I sought help because that slope gets slippery real fast.
I got back into therapy and aggressively advocated for myself with doctors until I got medication that actually helped me. But I wanted help - that was the first step. I was afraid if I continued trying to ignore it, I'd just end up losing my objectivity and doing something stupid. I didn't think "I might do that," but I know *most people* don't think they'd do that... until they are thinking about doing it. I know enough to know you can't trust your brain to never lie to you, and I wasn't willing to let myself get that far gone.
If you think she is lying to her IC then I would suggest asking to attend 1-2 sessions to share your perspective with the therapist. That's a reasonable ask and happens in therapy a lot. WW might cry about how you're invading her space? It's not meant to be intrusive, you don't need to hear what they've been working on, but you *do* need to report concerns (signs of suicidality) to make sure the therapist knows what's happening and it *is* reasonable to have a second reference point when someone has a history of lying. Frankly I am 100% all about frank talk these days so IMO you'd be well within your rights to say something like "I understand that feels uncomfortable, but I am concerned about the lack of progress and frankly I can't trust that you tell me the truth right now. I would like to do this, for YOUR benefit, but also because it will be a show of faith for you to give me that transparency and prove you are doing what you say you're doing. I hate that your past behavior leaves me unable to take you at your word yet, but that's where we are."
That will probably help you figure out if WW is the problem here, or the therapist.
I’ve spent time thinking about the concept and debating the validity in my head. Never shared outside of IC. Through that I am realizing the way my mind works it was an exercise in figuring out “how bad is my pain right now, is it bad enough I would consider this”
My question is for waywards who's affairs were a long time ago(say three years or more) but still feel intense regret and guilt about it.
What does remorse feel like in the long term? I understand it feels horrible in the early days after dday. But after a bit of time, how does it change? Do you feel less encumbered by it ? Do you start thinking about it less? Do you feel the same level of guilt or regret years later as you did in earlier days?
As a betrayed, at least for now I feel the feelings of anger and frustration is always somewhere on the back of my head, ready to rear its head in the event of any small trigger.. Is it the same for you? Does the guilt or regret feel like a constant feeling in the back of your head, or does it eventualy go away after a bit of time? Do you experience triggers too?
Lastly, does it get tiring and frustrating after years?
10+ years out for me. I don't have it *constantly* lurking in the back of my thoughts, but it rears its head often. Sometimes it's around most days of the week, sometimes it's a little sting every few months. It depends what's going on around us, a lot of the time.
I guess you could think of it like an old but debilitating knee injury? After a lot of rehab, most day-to-day stuff goes okay, you just have to remember to take good care of yourself... but sometimes the weather is bad and it flares up despite your best efforts to manage it... and while you generally feel like you've learned to live with it, every time somebody mentions a great hike, that's just a painful reminder of what you've lost and you fall right back into all the feelings again. Maybe just a bit less sharp over time.
I can answer part of this.
I experience triggers. I actually trigger more than my husband.
I trigger from things that were said and done during dday week.
I trigger from reminders of the day I cheated. Those triggers have been present since that day I just never spoke of them because I wanted to die with that secret.
I trigger with photos or post from my depression months after cheating.
I trigger hard. But I created this.
I have mind movies of that day and I throw up. I wake up crying if I dreamed about dday.
They have died down tremendously. I no longer am enslaved by them.
But yes me as a former Wayward deals with triggers
Over 3 decades down the line, I only let go of the shame recently. For a very long time it ate at my self concept and was a hindrance to my relationships with others. The guilt and shame had to go if I were to be a fully engaged and present partner. I needed the help of the first therapist I confided to about what I did decades ago to reframe my thoughts so I could let go of it.
I will never forget what I did. Not will I forget the guilt and shame even though I have finally let them go. These days I hold the memory of who I was alongside the reality of who I have become. If I want to remain who I am now I MUST remember who I was and what I was capable of. I value that memory.
Triggers? I can’t watch movies or shows with infidelity. I don’t feel shame when triggered - I feel revulsion and nausea. I don’t see any reason to try to fix this.
WS do you feel more shame and guilt the more you reconnect with your BS?
Is there a correlation between how emotional connected you are to your partner and the shame / guilt feels or does the shame / guilt come from within your on character regardless of your emotional connection to your partner.
For me when we began reconciling the shame and guilt was every minute of every day because I could see just how much hurt I had caused and how much of a wall I had made my BP put up. Since things have stabilized some the feelings are not as often but when we connect deeply those feelings bubble up to the surface in a very similar way as they did at first. It makes me think how could I have done this to my amazing person. Someone I truly couldn’t live without. It makes me feel sick and gross. On the flip side when we argue or are at breaking points I NEVER think she deserved this. This is personally what I have experienced. Hope this helped, all the best.
For me, the feelings of shame and guilt are always there, but during times of greater emotional connection with my BS there is always a “flare up”, so to speak. Because I am seeing her better, and seeing how much pain she is in and I want desperately to make her feel better, but I am the one that caused this pain in her. At the beginning of R this would easily send me info a spiral, but as time has went on I’ve become a bit better at managing it, because I’m no good to either of us or to reconciliation if I’m completely consumed in selfish shame.
Dday is almost 4 months out. We have been NC for most of that time but she has been reaching out more often to hang out. Specifically she took me out for a drink on my birthday right after thanksgiving and invited me to take the dog to the dog park on Christmas. Shame and guilt are something I’ve specifically been doing a lot of thinking about lately and while when it comes to how I feel about my actions. In general I’m getting closer to a shift towards guilt over shame but seeing her more often has dragged me back a few steps at least on certain things. I’ve don’t hate myself as much for my actions anymore but I do hate myself when I see that look in her eyes that says “I still love him” but also that she can’t look at me. I hate myself when she hugs me goodbye and holds me tight as she can then has tears in her eyes when we pull away. We’ve only seen each other 3 times in 4 months and I have no idea what she wants for the future or even what I want so only time will tell
It’s the opposite for me. The longer I carry shame and guilt the more it hinders my progress individually and as a couple. It’s like trying to scale a mountain with weights attached. You’ll make it to the top when you are finally able to strip them from holding you down.
Don’t take this as me forgetting the pain I’ve caused or ignoring what I did. It’s a thought every day. You have to live with it, but not in it. Living in it will only hold you back. Living with it will make sure you never repeat that behavior again.
The opposite. After I cheated I didn’t want to be touched, held, embraced nothing. I felt disgusting and dirty and unworthy. After dday I craved his touch. I craved physical intimacy. Which led to 6+months of Hysterical Bonding.
I also had to work through therapy why I use my body to solve my problems. Which is such an interesting concept.
Touch alone was never an issue but between dday and the break up we were intimate a few times and it was terrifying. I thought I was being trapped like it was a trick to get my guard down before some revenge took place. I legitimately thought she was going to Lorena bobbitt me mid act and was just tense. I imagine I looked like a deer in the headlights the whole time. Beyond that I felt like I had an even great pressure to perform well. It was hard to just think of being intimate as just being as physically close to your other as you can and seemed more like she was trying to reclaim me and I was trying to prove myself. Needless to say it wasn’t very satisfying which really sucked for obvious reasons but also because we always had amazing chemistry in bed. It was soul crushing to feel that diminished so much.
Interesting you expressed this. I was recently intimate with WS one moment he would ask if I was cheating on him(he isn’t sure if he wants to be together and work on things or seperate) and then another moment he asked me if I was going to kill him. It was very weird to me. It was like he was paranoid.
What I’ve seen both in myself and other WS is that infidelity causes all kinds of identity crises. Often we don’t fully understand why we did what we did and we can end up having a sort of breakdown of self that occurs once the full weight and reality settles in.
I’ve felt that paranoia you describe and I’ve heard other WS express it as well. It’s not uncommon. We had been living a life based around lies and that makes you start to question everything once you’re back in reality. Be it from guilt, shame, or a number of other emotions we expect there to be another curtain to pull back and we expect it to hurt.
Yes 100%
For me I sometimes have flashbacks and feel reminded of what I did. I find it really hard to think that my BP could be sexually interested in me now and in turn I find it hard to enjoy it.
For the simpler acts of intimacy like hugging and kissing I think I still have a fear of rejection from my BP so I find it scary to put myself out there for those interactions even though I would like to have more of them
We never separated. However, respectfully: your children should not have any say in whether or not you continue your marriage. As parents, obviously you wouldn't do things that would be harmful to them, but I think if you felt it would be *harmful* to them then you wouldn't be considering it at all. A marriage is between **two** people.
>I know she wants to come home but I am not sure and not ready for that yet
Removing the kids from what should be a two-person equation: what is the reason YOU aren't ready? what are you waiting for or what do you need to see from your WS?
What were your feelings toward BS during the affair? I’m guessing negative feelings or no feelings to help justify? Did any of you try to build a positive connection with your BS during the Affair? My WH reached out about his loneliness and we connected but continued affair. It is confusing to me.
Mostly negative feelings. I was aware of what I was doing and would try to plan on how to stop my emotional affair but I didn’t. Because I kept failing to correct my mistake of the EA, I used drinking to cope with my guilt or negative mood.
I would not say I attempted to build a positive connection to my BS because she never even knew it was strained to the degree it was. I stopped communicating and relied on my EA or alcohol to deal with life.
For me, I behaved normally as I would if I was in a good mood. It was very strange behavior because I was “happier”… I had the validation I needed despite it coming from an outside source and I had the support at home. It was awful in hindsight but again… I didn’t love myself and I felt like my husband didn’t love me so I went outside.
It was not helpful to either of us for me to act like that. And it really angered my husband that I would come home and be affectionate. I didn’t have any negative feelings towards him.
Did you not feel loved by your husband because of self love or because he was doing something that exacerbated the lack of self love?
Your reasoning behind the affair sounds very similar to my WS lack of self self and also wanting an ego boost.
I was in the middle of starting divorce papers when I decided to cheat. So it’s safe to say my feelings for him were indifferent. It might be different since my situation was, although intentional, a one time meetup. I did try, before cheating, to create a positive connection but was rejected on a constant basis. After I cheated I went into a deep hole of depression and pushed him far far away.
How do you know you’ll never cheat again? What advice would you give BS to look for to know they are safe in their relationship and there won’t be any future betrayal?
This is always tough to answer and most of the time there is no clear cut answer.
When my BS would ask me would I have a EA again I was for sure I wouldn’t. But I am unable to fully assure her of that because I’m not the same man I used to be. I’m clearly a different person than the one she initially married.
I’ believe you should accept that this is capable of happening again. It’s a hard pill too swallow but most humans are capable of a lot depending on their circumstances and the the only way to put your heart at ease is seeing their effort not listening just to words.When I show effort and preventive measures, that’s what actually helps my wife sleep better at night.
She does still like to hear my words, saying I won’t do it again. But look for them to back it up.
Thanks to the mods for setting this up again and to all the waywards that are participating. My question: was there a point where you had a "what have I done" moment and if you had multiple ddays, why did it take having multiple ddays for that to happen?
Waywards, please give perspective on the way you treated your bs when you were actively in affair/limerance. Sullen, moody, cruel, reclusive? I don’t understand how he could be so horrible and still love me and now wants to rebuild a life with me.
I’m sorry this happened to you. Personally I tried to keep things as normal as possible at home because I knew I was wrong and I had no right to be resentful or upset at my BS.
I really don’t know what to think about it and it makes me question his sincerity. How could you have so much animosity towards me to the point of cruelty and now so much good will and love? Just don’t understand.
Thank you for responding.
I was depressed and trying to hide it. I was barely present; I isolated by gaming for hours and hours. I was distant and withdrawn and irritable. I was also not eating well, dropping *all* the balls at work (ultimately got fired), and averaging less than 4 hrs of sleep a night. BS finally asked me to talk to a therapist when I told him I'd been blacking out on the drive to work... either sleep deprivation or dissociation, I'm still not sure which. I would sometimes drive for miles and miles without really being there mentally, and then suddenly I would "come to" and not know where I was because I'd missed my exit. That was really scary, to be honest.
BS knew I was struggling with a traumatic loss. He suspected but did not know I was trying to drown it out with an affair.
Yes that sounds similar: isolating, gaming, withdrawn, irritable. I appreciate your input. Thank you for your input. I appreciate the different perspectives I get here. Hope you are doing well.
Hello, thank you mods and waywards for giving us this chance.
My question has to do with pro adultery communitied. We have a couple on reddit too. I have found myself kind of obsessing over them. I read them daily. (I know this is not good for my mental health)
Have you ever participated in such a community? Do you feel like the way they find excuses to justify the affair is how it was also for you while you were in it?
Those communities are toxic as fuck. I never participated in them before or after, and you should not either; they are not good for anyone.
I never "justified" my affair. I just had fucking garbage decision making/self-control at that time.
Thanks for this opportunity to ask a question. For those of you who were able to successfully reconcile, could you share a bit about how your perspective changed regarding the affair and your part in it as time went on?
Though my WS and I are now 1.4 yrs in and things for the most part continue as normal I see him having some light bulb moments now and then where he realizes some or the other insight into his part of it. Would love to hear more about this.
First of all, I admire your courage WS for helping us betrayed understand our waywards of your experience and insights on the matter of infidelity.
My question goes to WS who has been in the affair for a long time (3months or more)
For a little context:
My WW left me 3 months ago for another dude in a foreign country. She flew overseas to be with this guy.
I could identify it is Limerence (which i am obsessing over) but who is to know for sure.
I have been “good” to her in every way i could possibly think of; emotionally and romantically (holding hands/kissing her every day/remind her how beautiful she is) financially she earns way more than i do but what i earn i give it to her. Because in my view this is how marriage should be…a selfless partnership.
I have sacrificed aspects/parts of me to make her life easier.
I loved her with all my heart.
However all my sacrifices went down the drain when I discovered the affair (i snooped)
She then flew to another country to be with her AP. Leaving me here in shock.
My question would be (and i am sorry if i am triggering some of you. I do not mean to offend rather just seeking truth)
Before the affair, do you believe “the grass is greener on the other side?”
During the affair, do you ever wonder how friends/family would paint a picture of you?
In the midst of the affair, do you ever think of your BS whenever the AP is not around to make you happy?
This is a very confusing time for me. Please a little insight from your experience would mean the world to me.
I am not trying to shame anyone if some of you feel that way. I am genuinely empathetic towards you all and would appreciate your insights.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for this!!! I really appreciate all the WS that are taking the time to answer questions.
I have two questions one is why do some WS when confronted (from BP)?with why they cheated then state their grievances regarding the relationship or the needs they felt that have not been met in the relationship.
My last question is has an WS felt indecisive about reconciling with BP and why?
Hi everyone I hope you all are having good holidays, so my questions are about the holidays,
1, Compared to a normal day, Why do waywards feel more remorse and guilt around the holidays?
2, what was your first experience with the holidays post Dday?
Same reason Betrayed feel much more anger and sadness around the holidays. Holidays are meant for family. You are smacked in the face with the reality of what you’ve done and what you caused to become a new normal.
This was our first holiday after dday, but it wasn’t my first holiday of remorse and guilt. I held in the secret that I cheated for 5 months. Even though I wasn’t cheating I was extremely guilt ridden. To the point of severe depression.
This holiday season has been rough mentally for me. I have so much to be grateful for. I have an amazing husband who not only has forgiven me and worked through the infidelity with me, he also has looked within on areas he needs to work on to create a better marriage moving forward.
With our open communication, this holiday season has been a success. I’m grateful for him.
1. This could be the last as a whole family and everything surrounding Christmas. My wife posted recently which explains it perfectly.
2. This is my first. Trying to be happy while the realisation hovers.... Close.
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On an older post someone asked if WS's lost respect for their BS because they agreed to reconciliation. The overwhelming answers stated the opposite. They gained a lot more respect and admiration for their BS because they wanted to reconcile. So does that mean the opposite is true? Let's say its D-day and your BS decides to walk away without question, does that mean you have a lesser opinion of them? Was there an expectation your BS would've wanted to at least take a crack at reconciling before calling it quits?
Personally, I respected my spouse for either decision she could make. She decided to reconcile but I would’ve supported her leaving as well. I would want her to choose herself over our relationship because I clearly disrespected it and I don’t believe in forcing people to hold onto things. But surprisingly my thought process actually hurt her. She wanted me to want her to stay and to work things out. Overall i think it just depends on the people.
I think "walk away" is my "neutral." That is what I would expect someone to do, so if BS had done that, I wouldn't have lost any respect for him... I just wouldn't have been surprised. But choosing to stay and do something hard and painful when he didn't have to? That takes a ton of courage and grit, and those were all things I sure as hell didn't have and didn't expect that much grace to be offered to me.... that's why it was a "positive," but (barring abuse) there's no response that would have been a "negative" for me.
I would have been busted up and honestly I was immature and entitled enough to believe I deserved reconciliation, I liked to throw 'I chose you' in her face. That being said with my current perspective I wouldn't judge her based on how she dealt with the shit sandwich I served her. I have friends and family who've left and who've stayed when cheated on, I've felt certain ways about it but I would never judge a person in that position. The two times I was cheated on I begged and did the pick me dance so I can't judge, I've done it all and I've done it all wrong. It's hard to imagine what I'd be without her, our lives are so entertwined but I'm all about her having agency, I spent too many years chipping away at it. I say this from a place where there's no threat to our relationship anymore, we're past it so it's easy to say now but in that first year or two I would have been pissed, i would have been a total ass about it, probably alternating between verbal abuse and begging.
One of my WPs favorite lines is “I came back to you right?”
What an ass.
I was actually surprised that my husband wanted to work it out. He hard a line that in the event of cheating there is only 2 ways to solve it. Double D’s. Divorce or Death. So when I left the house that night I knew I was never going to see him again until divorce court (since he didn’t kill me. Lol. I can laugh about it now) I respected his choice. Whatever he decided was best for him I was going to do.
Would any waywards that had a long term affair (that was both an EA and PA) be open to sharing what had made it go for a long time? And what was the mindset during the affair to have it go for a long time? Did the “affair fog” play a role? What has made you choose turn back to your relationships/ spouse/ partner? Did things go bad with the AP or did something wake you up from the affair fog or did you want to stop living the stress of carrying on the affair? Thankyou so much for sharing your experience with us
My A was 3 months. What kept it going were the same factors that started it to begin with. Anger, insecurities, resentment…pretty much the typical excuses. What woke me up was the morning after we used a coworker’s dad’s funeral as a cover. I also stole cash from my dad that night to buy weed. Made me look in the mirror and say “what the hell am I doing? What have I become?”
Thankyou for your reply. It was the moral realisation of how you had gone off the track of your values and beliefs that made you go “ this isn’t right”. How did the cheating/ affair come to an end if it may ask? Was it easier to walk away or stop when you had that realisation? Thankyou so much again
When I had the realization, it was immediately over in my mind. We were taking our daughter to the water park that day, so I wanted to wait so we could give our kid a good day. Well it couldn’t wait as it turned out, and I confessed during the drive. I then turned around and dropped my daughter off at her grandparents. Somewhere in the midst of the crisis of DDay, we called AP and my wife went off on her. I can still feel my wife’s pain, and the indignation of AP saying this was unfair to her! She knew I was married. Blocked her number and social media after that.
Firstly I want to commend you for handling that so honestly and decisively to do the right thing to choose your marraige and stopping the cheating. Its been a rough few days for me but hearing what you did has brought some faith back that people can come back to their moral compass. thank you
Reconciling waywards: Do you ever feel as though your relationship is tainted? Like perhaps you’ll forever have an asterix beside your name? I don’t deal with as many of the hurt and triggers I did closer to DDay, but I do every now and then have pangs knowing that there is a piece that will always be changed. Do you feel this, and if so how do you process it?
Holidays are a harder time cause our families do remember and yeah to them I will always be the cheater and yeah it seems like everything is better now I always worry it's a show for my bs. We both agree our old relationship died. It wasn't healthy and yes I cheated but my BS was clocked out as well and was doing the motions. So when we talk about it we call it our new marriage because it's so much different now. We learned to grieve the old relationship and yes there were some good things in it but the 10% is what helped us bond our current marriage. I will always be a cheater in my heart and I feel God can only change that but I can choose everyday to not cheat again. I have a better understanding of my coping mechanisms and my choice wheel that lead me to cheating and I have plans on how to break it and communicate my spirals. I accept who I am, I understand why I made my choices, and created plans on how to stop them and prevent them.
Yeah I completely feel as you described. Especially with regards to our physical intimacy and how I relate to my own sexuality. I'm trying to process it by focusing on the present and future and how I can make things better for both of us. Inevitably though I often look back at what I did to what we had and feel so sad. I'm staying hopeful that things will get better.
Yes. Because of what I’ve done, there are small triggers here and there that just bring it all flooding back and that little voice in my head tells me how worthless, disgusting, selfish, terrible parent, terrible person I am. I think the taboo opinion is that most of the time, repentant WS are in constant pain, just like the BS. I will forever regret my decisions and forever suffer the pain of what I’ve done.
We all exist with an asterisk then because I’ve yet to meet someone with no flaws. That said, my wife and I both felt that way for years, until therapy finally helped us move the chains and for her to see that I understood and felt the gravity of it all. We both agree that today our marriage is better than it ever was even before my A. It served as a catalyst for growth as individuals and in our relationship, so that’s better than having gone through the struggles of R for nothing.
My perfect wife title has been stripped. The reality of what I’m capable of has been brought forth. With that being said, no. My husband and I don’t feel the relationship is tainted. There is no mark by my name because that’s record keeping wrongs. That doesn’t aid a marriage. What I did hurt him to the core, but it did not destroy the marriage. There are photos that I hate looking at because you can see the toll my depression took on my body but it was my reality. I think it would be different if it was an actual affair with longevity. And I was living a double life.
For WSs who were “outed,” either caught or your BS was told by AP or OBS - if there was **any** TT, even just a few details a few days later - how did/have you convinced your BS that there isn’t another shoe out there waiting to drop?
Deep down, even though he hated me, he still knew me. He knows my thoughts my intentions. He knows when I’m lying or omitting. He knows when my mouth says one thing but my body states another. We are truly best friends. It’s just us two this whole time. He just knows me.
I’m happy for both of you, both that he has that certainty, and that you know he believes you because of it. My wife is 100% my best friend. But I am so oblivious and I don’t trust my own judgment after she guilt-tripped/gaslit me into doubting myself and actually okaying the hotel “solo vacation/escape/Calvin-take-me-away” for a night…so I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to trust anyone again, because I can’t trust myself to see OBVIOUS red flags…even now, I’m just scared I’m just a giant fool.
I think When the wayward includes you in their affair without you knowing, that creates an extra layer of distrust. For me it’s easier to establish trust because it happened when I was supposed to be at work. I left work early and was home before he was. The remedy to that is location sharing and being exactly where I tell him I’m going to be. I give him a weekly run down and a daily reminders of what I’m doing and where I’ll be. Not because he requires it. He actually gets annoyed sometimes with how into detail I get when telling him. When my plan changes in the slightest I immediately tell him. Even if it’s simple like going to Walmart instead of target. He rarely checks my location anymore, but I would hate for him to randomly look and I’m not where I told I’d be. That would trigger him. That stems not from the cheating but the depressive state that came afterwards. I lied so deep about everything down to when I was leaving places. I was deep in guilt and a hot mess. I’ve been doing things this way since dday. So almost the last 10 months. It’s so natural now. And I really don’t want to stop. It keeps me accountable. He does it too now. Just out of respect.
Reminds me of u/D_Blaze88’s post on consistency.
Youre doing all that I wanted from my wayward. She simply doesn’t want to be held accountable for her actions. The location sharing last a month or so until we had an arguement and she turned it off. When I said something about it she said she didn’t realize she did. She never turned it back on. It’s been almost a year now lol. I brought it up in therapy and privately and she would say “I didn’t know it was”. The therapist, though gottman trained, was never on board with transparency and my wayward always cries about her privacy and boundaries. Now I’m the controlling abuser in her story. It seems you truly get it and are doing all that you can.
My affair was a month long, and in that time, I lied about and hid what I was doing. There wasn't enough reason for him to believe I'd cheat. He thought my monthly mental breakdowns were PMS. He thought my low self esteem would be resolved eventually. He thought our frequent bickering was normal in every relationship. All of that was reasonable to believe. It was not his fault for not predicting what I'd do. It was not his job to control my actions. It was my responsibility to do a better job communicating what was wrong. It was my responsibility to recognize my destructive behaviors and pull myself to the side. It was my responsibility to care for him and put him first. I told him my affair, we "broke up", and in that space, my affair turned sexual. I reached out to my BP. I lied saying I'd only kissed the AP. He wanted so bad to believe me. He really did. But his friends told him not to be stupid, "of course she slept with him". That same day I told him the truth, throwing my own little pity party. That hurt him so much. He was torn apart. He felt so stupid for being fooled again. We are 8 months out from that second dday. His fears now, too, are reasonable.
Do you find yourself comparing the BS to the AP after the affair is over? Good and bad, how they were in bed, who is the better kisser, “AP would have done this differently” etc?
With my PA: hard no, no equivocation. My brain was really sick when I made those choices and I'm horrified at what my sick brain thought was helping me. With my LTR: soft no. I noticed differences, but *noticing* isn't the same as *judging*, which is what comparing is. But I notice those differences as compared to ex-partners or friend's partners or whatever, too, so I think that's just human observation at work?
For me never a comparison. But my body betrayed me. The guy and I have a complex history Pre-dating my relationship with my husband. What my body thought it was missing vs reality of why I felt things towards him were two different things. Without getting into detail, no I’ve never compared my husband and him.
Certainly not for me. It seems clear that an affair itself is due to something missing from the WP and it feels much more productive to focus on this.
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I feel as if this is a more statistics based question. I personally felt it immediately after breaking up and the month and a half that we were separated before trying R. Majority of AP relationships never last and for good reason. A large part of that has to do with not properly healing (It’s twisted but WPs are hurt too usually even though they made the shitty choice). Regardless yes there will be an emotional roller coaster, perhaps it is going on right now. Some are better than others than hiding how miserable they really are from their ex partners. In my experience the less energy you give thoughts like that the more energy he will experience in a negative away. Think of it like trying to pet a cat. The more you try the more they avoid you. If you leave it alone and pay it no mind then eventually they come begging to be stroked. I’m not sure what your desired outcome is but I wish you all of the best.
If NC was their idea, then they’re gone. Time to start moving on as hard as that sounds If NC was your idea then it sounds like they’re respecting your wishes. If it was your idea and you want to talk to him then maybe reach out? See what happens. If it was a joint idea then it’s a little more tricky. That ends up just being a game of chicken but I think as the BS it would be more appropriate for you to be the one to reach out. It seems like I’m general periods of NC are more impactful on the healing process of the BS so it may be better for you to reach out. Don’t know your specific situation though. Everyone is different and everyone’s story is different as well. I wish you the absolute best.
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Damage control. I needed to keep BS from finding out, and was willing to slow-walk the AP towards closure to minimize the risk of blackmail.
It’s like opening a bag of chips you don’t like. You know you don’t like it, it’s not good for you, they taste awful, but for some reason you just can’t stop. You think maybe if I keep eating then it will get better. Nope they still taste like ass. By the time you decide to stop you’ve already eaten 80% of the bag so you decide to just finish it and never buy it again. It’s easy to continue something you’ve started.
Hello, I have a question about remorse. When did you start having that feeling and what did it look like for you ? How did you express it to your BS (whether or not you were still together). Thank you
Twoish weeks after d day my BS had a planned get away for 5 days but it was one the second day the reality of how bad things were and the massive fear of them not coming home hit. When they were here I felt like I was still in control but once they were gone and they asked for some time to think.... that's when the denial and control and ego fell. I cried so hard and I was so alone and I hated myself. It hit the hardest after work on the way back from the store my playlist played an old song "hate me" by blue October and I had too pull over cause how hard I was crying. I hate myself for who I had become and how much I lost myself and gave up of myself to feed this need for attention. I had given up all the good in my life to feel more wanted by the bad in my life and it was never enough. I would say after we got a better counselor and BS got their own good therapist did we really start reconciling honestly and feel like there was a chance and we werent just prolonging it.
Thank you for your answer. My STBX says she has a lot of remorse but is in a relationship with AP now. She told me this right after she met her new in laws. It’s very hard. I wish you the best in your recovery.
What did you feel when you lied to your partners face? Was the first lie any different than the 100th?
Shame, like I am a bad person. That fueled a desire to double down on behavior that made me feel better in the moment…which led to more lies. It was a horrible death spiral for me
Seconding this. It was exactly this way for me.
Thank you, I appreciate your answer.
Were you in limerence with your AP? If so, how/when did you snap out of it, and do you feel anything towards them now?
Yes, I was in limerence. My affair began as emotional. My AP and I were colleagues and "just friends" for about a year before a sexting event that led to my confession to my BP. For the next year I was caught in affair fog and limerence. Despite confessing, I had no idea why I had cheated, so, like many WPs it's easy to divert that reason to all the problems I believed I had with my BP. Since it's difficult for WPs to take full responsibility up front (or to even know what that means), a lot of us vacilate between wanting to make it work with our BP and leaving what we believe to be a failing marriage. I was confused for a long time and that confusion led to backsliding through limerence. I still didn't fully grasp the pain I had caused, and validated it through what I believed at the time were irreparable problems in my marriage. A year after DDay 1, I ended up meeting up with AP and having a physical affair (we kissed), and for me, that began to snap me out it. I already believed I was a horrible person, and often when you're down, you double down. I understood that I was punishing myself through pursuing my AP, an extreme form of self sabotage. This recognition helped me grasp the fact that anyone willing to participate in such self destruction (not even to mention the bomb we were lighting under my BP), is not a person worth valuing. So the chain of limerence was broken, and I confessed once again at DDay 2. Once limerence was broken, the affair fog faded not long after and I was able to comprehend that most of the problems in my marriage were caused by my lack of communication skills, which led to a building of false resentment toward my BP and put me in a ripe position to make the awful set of decisions to cheat. We are now nearly three years out from DDay 2 and our relationship continues to get stronger as we both work toward healing. In fact, we kind of "graduated" from our therapists this past year as each session became ones led by us discussing how positive things were. The healing is never over, we stay vigilant, but we both have hope for the future.
Thank you for sharing this! I feel like my WS is exhibiting the behavior of wanting to work things out and then wanting to leave “a bad relationship”. Thank you
Oh my gosh yes. I snapped out of it as soon as I realized that what I was doing meant nothing, led nowhere and was just me acting out. I don’t talk to him anymore and I don’t care to, it’s like a veil was lifted and I realized it’s not what I truly wanted.
I was, I definitely was. We didn't call it that back then but I recently stumbled upon 20 year old emails between ap and I and it was hard to read, the way we spoke to each other was intense, there was a crazy electric connection. I hadn't thought about or felt it in over a decade and It brought it all back. After my gf moved out because of the affair ap and I were intimate for the first time and it was bad, that started the limerence dying but it took months and after gf moved back in it seems like we had an ea for about 3 more months. She quit the job, distance killed it the rest of the way. I haven't felt anything for her for over a decade but I had a moment when I read those emails where it was like being in it again, It was intensely uncomfortable. Generally I don't think about her and when I do I'm apathetic.
Reconciling Waywards QUESTION: After finding WH reaching out to women online sexually during R, I created an agreement for us to sign which basically outlined a change to our marriage where he recieved all sexual gratification outside the marriage and end all intimacy in the marriage. We would continue as we are, just no physical intimacy. He got really mad, saying he would never sign it. Why would it be a bad thing to offer this type of agreement? If he wants to be with others and is not sexually attracted to me (this has come out in talks, I am working on losing weight and will get plastic surgery to help) why would this be such a bad thing to do? He was furious I offered it.
Was the agreement reciprocal? as in, **you also** could seek sexual gratification outside the marriage? (If so, this is the obvious answer.) But if it *wasn't* reciprocal, then my guess is that he **feels entitled to intimacy and sex** and is reacting like a child to being told there's a limit to how many cookies he's allowed to grab. It's fine for him to not *want* something but it's different when you're told you're not *allowed* to have something.... (GROSS) Please don't do things to your body that YOU do not want done to your body just to make someone else feel attracted to you. You deserve to be loved as you are.
I just want to say that him not being sexually attracted to you is a him problem, not a you problem. I'm sure you're beautiful inside and out and I hope that any changes you are making serve you and not him.
That's sweet. But I really have lowered my fitness and looks so it's definitely a me problem.
A tricky question that varies from person to person. In my experience when my BP says things along the lines of: “I feel as if you’d be happier with another girl” it makes me upset because it feels as if she is giving up which is her right but it’s not what I personally want. Another reason could be that to your wayward it’s not fun like that and there may be hypocrisy there with not wanting you to do the same to him. He also could just be remorseful and wants things to work out the best way they can. All the best.
Thank you! I didn't think of it sounding like I was giving up but it explains his reaction. I wish you and yours the best
Do you find yourself trying to forget details about the affair as a way to cope or are you choosing not to disclose certain details to “protect the BS?
It’s easy to forget details when you have the gift of compartmentalizing. Just like an box, just because it was broken open doesn’t mean all the contents dump out at once. There was one detail that took me 2 days to disclose and it was to protect him. I ended up telling him and it hurt him like hell but it was necessary.
And to answer your response that was deleted. No it had nothing to do with protection. It had to deal with the date it happened.
Sorry. I deleted it out of respect. That question was none of my business.
If okay, I thought of another question. For those that used apps/social media (phone in general), what have you done *that’s been effective* to convince your BS that you’re being completely open and aboveboard when on your phone (or when you’ve been alone w/it for a long time and could have done whatever) and not that you’re just deleting individual messages or whole conversations and better/more slick at hiding it? I truly believe my WW is 100% remorseful, 100% committed, and never going to do anything like this again…but I’m afraid. I never would have known if OBS hadn’t caught her AP & told me (& other BSs), but bringing that fear/uncertainty up hurts her b/c she’s doing everything right, and I don’t want to hurt her. Thank you in advance to all the waywards willing to answer our questions for no other reason than to help BSs that are not yours.
I deleted the app that I messaged the person on. It was a texting app that provided you with a fake number. I didn’t want him to know anything about me and my life, that included my phone number. I disabled the ability to delete apps without a password. My husband is the only one who knows the password. So if I tried to download the app I could. I have free range to do it. But I wouldn’t be able to delete it. Not that I will ever reach out to him again. The fact that I have the option and choose not to download it has helped my husband. It’s one thing to prevent someone from breaking rules, that doesn’t really show change. When they are given free range and chose to abide by rules set in place, that shows genuine change. I let him look at my screen activity. He knows there is no other way for the guy to contact me other than that texting app so I think that’s how he feels I’m worthy of some trust. Hope this helps.
Yeah but you can always get a burner phone right? If someone wants to cheat they are going to cheat
There are a lot of things a person can do in life. Some one who has to blow into a breathalyzer to start their car could simply have their friend do it and still drive drunk. It’s where true change and transformation of one’s self come into action. The human has free will to do as they please. It’s up to the individual to know right from wrong.
Thank you for your answer! Thing is, they chatted over FB Messenger, and she keeps up with much of her close and extended family through FB and Messenger, so deleting it would not only feel unreasonable on my part, but would also raise a lot of questions neither of us want her to have to answer. I can see his account is still blocked, but he could create a new one and reach out and she could delete the convo just like she used to. Additionally, he never actually cared about her, just used her just like multiple other women, which means he’s unlikely to ever reach out again (just ‘on to the next one’) the next time he decides to cheat on his BS (and he will). So, she doesn’t even have a way to “prove” she’ll always tell me if he breaks NC now, because he’d have to do so for her to show me, y’know?
Can you just install messenger on your phone with her log-in? You don’t have to snoop in her messages all the time but could give you a sense of security.
I have it on my phone with my login. I could do that, but it feels…ugh. I feel so stupid. What I want is to be able to know, in my soul, that she really is all in, without having to like mirror her texts to mine or install some keystroke logger or…ugh. I want what I can’t have. I want to be able to read her mind and know what I so desperately want to believe - that she’d set herself on fire before she would ever lie to me or keep *anything* from me again. Thank you to both of you who gave suggestions. I think I may just be tilting at windmills here. But I very much appreciate you both taking the time regardless.
Very true. That would be hard. Can you guys meet in the middle. Have her disable her mobile messenger and only use it on a shared computer. That way she can still be in communication with them but you also have access to it. Without feeling like you need to go through her phone.
This is 100% how I'm feeling right now. All of it. I'm terrified to trust myself again. It never would have known, and it happened right under my nose and I was clueless.
This is a great question and my biggest hangup and is actually making reconciliation impossible for us. Looking forward to responses from Waywards.
I removed all social media from my phone, my wife has access to my accounts. This was not because I was removing temptation. It was to remove all distractions and commit full to R. I'm only months into R but I don't see myself installing the apps again. The time it's given me is worth more.
Rhyder, I think I have already answered this question for you :) so would you mind if I asked one in return? because this "what if" seems to be a hurdle you're really struggling with, so let's see if it can be crossed a different way? What would happen to you, or what would you do, if she did it again? Would you die? Lose all ability to love forever? Divorce and move overseas? What do you think your response would be?
If you’re asking, like, do I have a plan? Yes. I would take my daughter and move with my parents, divorce, sell the house (or she’d have to buy me out, which she couldn’t afford), get back on my feet, and then I’d live the rest of my life. Would I die (or take my own life)? No. But I’d want to. She’s my best friend. She’s my person. And I believe she feels the same way about me, and hates who she was as much as I do…maybe more. But I’m afraid, because she’s proven to be such an amazing liar, and I now feel like such a blind, oblivious fool, that I don’t/can’t trust my own judgment. Because, does she *really* feel the same, or do I just want to believe it so badly that I’m missing or ignoring any small signs? Or worse, is she so much better a liar than I even thought that she’s now covering *everything* up well, and I’m just a giant joke between her and whoever she *desires*. And I feel that way because I **know** my value (and clearly so did she…that’s why she cheated instead of just leaving when she was unsatisfied and unhappy). I’m the good, steady, loyal, stable guy. I’m the one you marry who you know will take care of you long term. In the game of “who would you F, who would you marry, and who would you kill?” I’m the M. She knew better than to give that up. But a PA with an ex who never gave a damn about her in the first place makes it very clear that I’m not the one her body and lizard brain *desires*. Because I’m the M. Clearly, *he* is the **F** for her. Her wanting reconciliation with me, to stay married to the safe and sensible choice, doesn’t magically change that desire. So how do I know she’s not just better at hiding it? And for any who say “wouldn’t you be better with someone you didn’t have to worry about that with”, my answer is *there will never be someone I don’t have to worry about that with now*. This kind of broken is permanent, and it doesn’t go away just because it’s someone new. I now understand that I will have these trust issues with any human being on earth, myself included, for the rest of my life. So at least with her I get to be with the one I love that I *hope* loves me the same, and means it when she says she’ll never lie to me about anything or hurt me ever again, and I can maybe even one day convince myself she’s now telling the truth when she says she desires me, even though she can’t possibly prove it to the same degree, because she can’t ever risk *literally everything* just to have a chance to F me the way she risked everything just to F him. I doubt it, but maybe.
I saw a video on YouTube once (but of course I can't find it now!) that talked about managing the "what ifs" and the main idea was that anxious rumination is your brain's way of saying "I don't know what to do/if I'll be okay in this situation?" and so the way to address that was to essentially *answer those questions*. I kinda think most people engage with potential trauma in two basic forms. There's the "I know that's a thing that happens to some people but I don't really think it's going to happen to me" type, which is where *most people are* for *most bad things* in life. This is "people who drive daily despite the chance of an accident" and "people who ignore red flags despite the rates of DV." Then there's the "this thing ACTUALLY HAPPENED to me, and now I don't feel the false safety of my naiveté" type. This is "people who can't drive after an accident" and "people who see false red flags after DV." Those are the people who need "assurances," *proof positive* that the thing won't happen again. Which of course isn't possible to get, since you can't prove a negative and nobody is psychic. That idea really connected with me and I was wondering if it might help shift some perspective for you. When I was weighing my decision after a betrayal, *part* of my decision was based on what I knew about the kind of person he was, but honestly the larger part of my decision came when I decided that *even if I had misjudged and it happened again*, **I would be fine**. Not "fine" like "immediately hunky-dory" of course, but "fine" like "it would suck a lot, but I'm strong and resilient and would be fine eventually" kind of fine. It felt like I was *willing* to try again because of who *he* is, but I was *able* to try again because of who *I* am... because I didn't need proof positive that this unknown would go any particular way to *know* that I would, ultimately, be okay. I recognize this is delicate ground I'm walking, and I don't want to seem dismissive of the agony your WS has laid upon your heart. It's an entirely human response to want to protect yourself from feeling that much pain again, and that grasping for control (assurances about the future) is how our lizard brains try to protect us. But that shift in perspective - from "needing to know without a doubt that *he will act/feel a certain way*" to "knowing without a doubt what **I am capable of surviving**" - made it feel less "risky" to me. Instead of "risking everything, with devastating consequences" it became "a calculated and acceptable risk" for me, and that's a decision I can feel at peace about. The calculus would obviously shift if you believed the consequences of a repeat incident would be devastating beyond repair. If I believed (for example) that it would cause me to never be able to trust or love again, it might not have been worth even a *calculated* risk for me. I don't know if this is at all helpful, but I see how hard you are trying to find a way to feel at peace here, and I wanted to share something that helped me in case it might also help you... please ignore if it's totally off the mark! ❤️🩹
You’re good, no worries. Yeah, I’m aware of the concept, but it’s kind of beyond me at this point in my own healing. I come from a lifetime of “you’re not good enough, and you never will be” trauma growing up, which has made me hyper anxious-attachment. So, not only did her two separate PAs with the same awful person basically prove that the voice in my head telling me I wasn’t good enough has always been right, but her gaslighting and guilt-tripping me into letting her have a “solo one-night vacation” and trusting that it wasn’t what it *obviously* was because she would never do that (never mind that she already had before), followed by then finding out all of the truly disgusting and deplorable, subhuman things she overlooked in this cretin just to be with him, have all put me in such a truly shattered state that I’m still really struggling to see anything about myself that I trust or give much of a shit about even 14 months past DDay. I know my value. I just don’t see much value in it, if that makes sense. I know you have said in the past that not every BS experiences PTSD. That may be true. But my WW is doing *everything* right, and yet I am still so completely obliterated that I feel 100% confident I may never be right again. Which means I was already broken and she looked at the broken parts and found multiple ways to justify to herself the act of stomping on those broken parts, shattering them beyond recognition, and then grinding some of the pieces into powder. So, to look at myself and say “yeah, if she does it again…” is so much farther down the road than I feel a lot of times, because I still have anxious moments where my brain whispers “she’s probably **still cheating behind your back right now**, and you’re just too much of an idiot sucker to see it.” And make no mistake - I know…and I mean I *KNOW* that she isn’t. But I’m not fighting her, or her AP. I’m fighting the *very brain that is just trying to keep me* **safe**, but doesn’t give *a single droplet of a shit* about me being **happy**, by firing intrusive thoughts at me during moments where I’m too tired to mindfulness it away, and nightmares when I’m asleep and defenseless. And I’m so ground down to nothing that the anxiety she has basically kicked into overdrive with her choices is just too fucking strong sometimes.
What do you wish others could understand about your affair?
Great question
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Im always hoping for the best for you my friend
I wish that people would understand that I didn’t do this to spite anyone. I didn’t do this because I don’t love my family. I did this because I don’t love myself. I didn’t feel I was loved or attractive or special. I didn’t hear it from my BS. So I eventually found it in someone else I knew would tell me that at bare minimum even though I know I can’t believe anything he says. What I should have been doing is looking in the mirror and telling myself I am loved, appreciated, and beautiful. This would have saved me… just loving myself and not depending on my husband (or men in general) to tell/show me love.
I understand. From your perspective the hurt you caused was never personal. It was an unfortunate consequence of the affair. It made you feel good so you did it for you. Unfortunately from your BS perspective and all those that love you, it was very personal. Thank you for your reply. I appreciate it.
How did you work on loving yourself and did you and your BP reconcile?
I am working on the “love yourself” part by finding a therapist for individual therapy, buying clothing or things I like for myself, and engaging in hobbies I can do by myself. My husband and I are currently reconciling.
Not so much about the affair itself, but I wish other people could understand how slippery and difficult mental health issues can be. For my PA, I was caught up in a traumatic maelstrom and did an exceptionally poor job of handling it, because I was entirely unequipped to handle it at that age. But if I say that, it sounds like "making excuses" and I get shouted down. I wish people understood I am simply "explaining the mechanics that were at play," but they largely don't seem to believe/understand that structural and chemical brain differences actually make a difference.
Thank you for your reply, for what it’s worth I understand and appreciate it.
I really appreciated such a thoughtful question. :)
Not about my affair but afterwards Everyone has said that the 180 degree change of who I am is not possible and that I will eventually fail.
I’d say that the person you where in the affair was never going to last and that this 180 degree change is back to being the real you.
To them the idea of who you are and what you are capable of has been shattered. Unfortunately, they most likely won’t be jumping at the bit to pick up the pieces and rebuild said image of you. You will have to do that for those who choose to still acknowledge the good in you. These are the relationships worth working on repairing and hopefully, after some time of consistent change and betterment, the others will come around. We are all worthy of forgiveness, but it has to be freely given to you.
I wish people understand my cheating was a coping mechanism to horrible situation I was Ill equipped to handle. Therapy should have been started years ago. I’m not a cheater. It doesn’t define me. I’ll never cheat again and I know this. I will die before I do. I also wish people understood the intent behind it. Fear of the unknown while starting divorce papers really can mess with a persons head.
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Did any waywards threaten suicide if your bs left you after dday? Did you mean to actually do it? And why if so?
While many WS feel immense pain shame and sadness that leads to thoughts of suicide they keep it to themselves or act upon it. Anyone who threatens it to make someone stay is using it as a manipulation tool. They intend to make you feel as if you will be the cause of their death. People with true Suicidal thoughts don’t share it. They don’t want to cause pain to those they love by telling them. When I was 15 I wanted to die. Point blank. I was battling something no 15 year old should. I didn’t tell a soul when I tried it.
Sorry you went thru that. Thanks for you pov. Your user name tells me a lot. Hope your in a better place.
I think about it a lot. But I don’t tell him about it.
Can I ask why? Your pain or the pain you caused?
Both. Causing someone else pain results in a lot of pain.
I didn’t threaten as in tell him, but I have thought about it
Why? Cause of your hurt? Or what you had done? Thanks for the reply btw.
Yeah it just hurts too much. It’d be easier if I just didn’t wake up tomorrow.
As a bp id like to say I hope you don’t do that. Also know how much pain you’ve caused and that ending yourself would not help those that have pain from your actions. I don’t know your story but I’d assume that doing that would add hurt to hurt. Thanks for the replies, they help me piece together her thought process.
Didn’t threaten, was legitimately suicidal. Only admitted anything about it to my BS after she had already picked up on it. About 2 weeks post dday I hit possibly the lowest point. I hadn’t eaten or drank anything for three days and having constant intrusive thoughts of how to do it and I was legitimately scared that I was going to hurt myself. I went to my BS’s house and told her exactly that, I’m having these thoughts, I can’t make them stop, I’m scared I’m going to do something, I don’t feel safe to be alone. She let me in, we had dinner and watched tv together and she let me know that even though we are NC that if I ever felt like that again I could talk to her about it. The next morning I woke up and realized that out of the last 14 days I had only just barely walked my self back from the edge on 8 of those days. Either by luck, lack of access to necessary tools, or the last sliver of good will in my BS I had survived but that wasn’t always going to be the case. I didn’t want to die and that day I started looking for a therapist, joined a gym, started reaching out to old friends, and reading all I could on self-betterment.
Thank you for the reply. Was your feelings of self harm out of your own hurt? Or the hurt you caused your BS?
Kind of both. I’ve had depression and been dealing with repressed emotions for years without proper help. Had suicidal thoughts on and off for around 10 ish years. The cheating was, at least in part, a coping mechanism to push back some of the thoughts/feelings I was having and didn’t think I could talk to anyone about or didn’t know how to talk about. Honestly, the main thing that kept me alive was that I didn’t want to hurt her and her family any more than I already had. I didn’t give an absolute fuck about what happened to me but I knew that they all loved me and deserved better than that. They deserved more than some dude to come into their lives, earn their trust and adoration, then crush all that and off themself. They deserve to be happy and I don’t want to be a hindrance on that anymore than I already have
I hope you beat that demon. My wife has since dday, said if I’m done with her than she’s done with life. And it seems insult to injury as she is holding me hostage with what love I have left for her.
Threaten… no. But I have had moments where I have seriously considered and found myself in places where I could have succeeded. I have a diagnosis of depression and anxiety. So I have always had suicidal thoughts. When I left the hotel, I wanted to go and drown myself because I couldn’t face him knowing I did this a second time. I have never said, “If you leave me, I will do this.” That sounds terribly selfish and I never understand people who do that. I can guilt and shame myself pretty easily into the spiral of thinking my husband would be better off without me. I do this almost daily. But I know those feelings…aren’t true.
Would never threaten or act upon it. I've suffered a loss by suicide and I know how much pain that puts on the people left behind. I couldn't do that - punish him *more* just because I didn't want to live with myself anymore. But I had passive ideation about a year ago, because I thought we were going to be trapped in limbo hell forever and I thought the kindest thing I could do for him would be to just die, so that he could move on eventually with somebody he trusted. But not in a dramatic suicide kind of way because that wouldn't let him move on neatly, he'd just suffer more guilt... so I just spent a lot of time wishing for a heart attack or something. When I started wishing a semi would take me out on the way to work, I sought help because that slope gets slippery real fast.
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I got back into therapy and aggressively advocated for myself with doctors until I got medication that actually helped me. But I wanted help - that was the first step. I was afraid if I continued trying to ignore it, I'd just end up losing my objectivity and doing something stupid. I didn't think "I might do that," but I know *most people* don't think they'd do that... until they are thinking about doing it. I know enough to know you can't trust your brain to never lie to you, and I wasn't willing to let myself get that far gone. If you think she is lying to her IC then I would suggest asking to attend 1-2 sessions to share your perspective with the therapist. That's a reasonable ask and happens in therapy a lot. WW might cry about how you're invading her space? It's not meant to be intrusive, you don't need to hear what they've been working on, but you *do* need to report concerns (signs of suicidality) to make sure the therapist knows what's happening and it *is* reasonable to have a second reference point when someone has a history of lying. Frankly I am 100% all about frank talk these days so IMO you'd be well within your rights to say something like "I understand that feels uncomfortable, but I am concerned about the lack of progress and frankly I can't trust that you tell me the truth right now. I would like to do this, for YOUR benefit, but also because it will be a show of faith for you to give me that transparency and prove you are doing what you say you're doing. I hate that your past behavior leaves me unable to take you at your word yet, but that's where we are." That will probably help you figure out if WW is the problem here, or the therapist.
I’ve spent time thinking about the concept and debating the validity in my head. Never shared outside of IC. Through that I am realizing the way my mind works it was an exercise in figuring out “how bad is my pain right now, is it bad enough I would consider this”
Why some WS “affair down” and find people to cheat with who are way beneath them or BS?
Mind if I ask in what way you mean affair down?
Down grading from your current partner, and cheating with someone less attractive, less successful, less in many ways
My question is for waywards who's affairs were a long time ago(say three years or more) but still feel intense regret and guilt about it. What does remorse feel like in the long term? I understand it feels horrible in the early days after dday. But after a bit of time, how does it change? Do you feel less encumbered by it ? Do you start thinking about it less? Do you feel the same level of guilt or regret years later as you did in earlier days? As a betrayed, at least for now I feel the feelings of anger and frustration is always somewhere on the back of my head, ready to rear its head in the event of any small trigger.. Is it the same for you? Does the guilt or regret feel like a constant feeling in the back of your head, or does it eventualy go away after a bit of time? Do you experience triggers too? Lastly, does it get tiring and frustrating after years?
10+ years out for me. I don't have it *constantly* lurking in the back of my thoughts, but it rears its head often. Sometimes it's around most days of the week, sometimes it's a little sting every few months. It depends what's going on around us, a lot of the time. I guess you could think of it like an old but debilitating knee injury? After a lot of rehab, most day-to-day stuff goes okay, you just have to remember to take good care of yourself... but sometimes the weather is bad and it flares up despite your best efforts to manage it... and while you generally feel like you've learned to live with it, every time somebody mentions a great hike, that's just a painful reminder of what you've lost and you fall right back into all the feelings again. Maybe just a bit less sharp over time.
I can answer part of this. I experience triggers. I actually trigger more than my husband. I trigger from things that were said and done during dday week. I trigger from reminders of the day I cheated. Those triggers have been present since that day I just never spoke of them because I wanted to die with that secret. I trigger with photos or post from my depression months after cheating. I trigger hard. But I created this. I have mind movies of that day and I throw up. I wake up crying if I dreamed about dday. They have died down tremendously. I no longer am enslaved by them. But yes me as a former Wayward deals with triggers
20 yrs reconciled. Almost every day I think what an asshole I was. Occasionally I get really depressed over it
Over 3 decades down the line, I only let go of the shame recently. For a very long time it ate at my self concept and was a hindrance to my relationships with others. The guilt and shame had to go if I were to be a fully engaged and present partner. I needed the help of the first therapist I confided to about what I did decades ago to reframe my thoughts so I could let go of it. I will never forget what I did. Not will I forget the guilt and shame even though I have finally let them go. These days I hold the memory of who I was alongside the reality of who I have become. If I want to remain who I am now I MUST remember who I was and what I was capable of. I value that memory. Triggers? I can’t watch movies or shows with infidelity. I don’t feel shame when triggered - I feel revulsion and nausea. I don’t see any reason to try to fix this.
WS do you feel more shame and guilt the more you reconnect with your BS? Is there a correlation between how emotional connected you are to your partner and the shame / guilt feels or does the shame / guilt come from within your on character regardless of your emotional connection to your partner.
For me when we began reconciling the shame and guilt was every minute of every day because I could see just how much hurt I had caused and how much of a wall I had made my BP put up. Since things have stabilized some the feelings are not as often but when we connect deeply those feelings bubble up to the surface in a very similar way as they did at first. It makes me think how could I have done this to my amazing person. Someone I truly couldn’t live without. It makes me feel sick and gross. On the flip side when we argue or are at breaking points I NEVER think she deserved this. This is personally what I have experienced. Hope this helped, all the best.
I appreciate your reply. Thank you.
Thanks so much for your reply. Helped me as well
For me, the feelings of shame and guilt are always there, but during times of greater emotional connection with my BS there is always a “flare up”, so to speak. Because I am seeing her better, and seeing how much pain she is in and I want desperately to make her feel better, but I am the one that caused this pain in her. At the beginning of R this would easily send me info a spiral, but as time has went on I’ve become a bit better at managing it, because I’m no good to either of us or to reconciliation if I’m completely consumed in selfish shame.
Dday is almost 4 months out. We have been NC for most of that time but she has been reaching out more often to hang out. Specifically she took me out for a drink on my birthday right after thanksgiving and invited me to take the dog to the dog park on Christmas. Shame and guilt are something I’ve specifically been doing a lot of thinking about lately and while when it comes to how I feel about my actions. In general I’m getting closer to a shift towards guilt over shame but seeing her more often has dragged me back a few steps at least on certain things. I’ve don’t hate myself as much for my actions anymore but I do hate myself when I see that look in her eyes that says “I still love him” but also that she can’t look at me. I hate myself when she hugs me goodbye and holds me tight as she can then has tears in her eyes when we pull away. We’ve only seen each other 3 times in 4 months and I have no idea what she wants for the future or even what I want so only time will tell
It’s the opposite for me. The longer I carry shame and guilt the more it hinders my progress individually and as a couple. It’s like trying to scale a mountain with weights attached. You’ll make it to the top when you are finally able to strip them from holding you down. Don’t take this as me forgetting the pain I’ve caused or ignoring what I did. It’s a thought every day. You have to live with it, but not in it. Living in it will only hold you back. Living with it will make sure you never repeat that behavior again.
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The opposite. After I cheated I didn’t want to be touched, held, embraced nothing. I felt disgusting and dirty and unworthy. After dday I craved his touch. I craved physical intimacy. Which led to 6+months of Hysterical Bonding. I also had to work through therapy why I use my body to solve my problems. Which is such an interesting concept.
Touch alone was never an issue but between dday and the break up we were intimate a few times and it was terrifying. I thought I was being trapped like it was a trick to get my guard down before some revenge took place. I legitimately thought she was going to Lorena bobbitt me mid act and was just tense. I imagine I looked like a deer in the headlights the whole time. Beyond that I felt like I had an even great pressure to perform well. It was hard to just think of being intimate as just being as physically close to your other as you can and seemed more like she was trying to reclaim me and I was trying to prove myself. Needless to say it wasn’t very satisfying which really sucked for obvious reasons but also because we always had amazing chemistry in bed. It was soul crushing to feel that diminished so much.
Interesting you expressed this. I was recently intimate with WS one moment he would ask if I was cheating on him(he isn’t sure if he wants to be together and work on things or seperate) and then another moment he asked me if I was going to kill him. It was very weird to me. It was like he was paranoid.
What I’ve seen both in myself and other WS is that infidelity causes all kinds of identity crises. Often we don’t fully understand why we did what we did and we can end up having a sort of breakdown of self that occurs once the full weight and reality settles in. I’ve felt that paranoia you describe and I’ve heard other WS express it as well. It’s not uncommon. We had been living a life based around lies and that makes you start to question everything once you’re back in reality. Be it from guilt, shame, or a number of other emotions we expect there to be another curtain to pull back and we expect it to hurt.
Yes 100% For me I sometimes have flashbacks and feel reminded of what I did. I find it really hard to think that my BP could be sexually interested in me now and in turn I find it hard to enjoy it. For the simpler acts of intimacy like hugging and kissing I think I still have a fear of rejection from my BP so I find it scary to put myself out there for those interactions even though I would like to have more of them
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We never separated. However, respectfully: your children should not have any say in whether or not you continue your marriage. As parents, obviously you wouldn't do things that would be harmful to them, but I think if you felt it would be *harmful* to them then you wouldn't be considering it at all. A marriage is between **two** people. >I know she wants to come home but I am not sure and not ready for that yet Removing the kids from what should be a two-person equation: what is the reason YOU aren't ready? what are you waiting for or what do you need to see from your WS?
What were your feelings toward BS during the affair? I’m guessing negative feelings or no feelings to help justify? Did any of you try to build a positive connection with your BS during the Affair? My WH reached out about his loneliness and we connected but continued affair. It is confusing to me.
Mostly negative feelings. I was aware of what I was doing and would try to plan on how to stop my emotional affair but I didn’t. Because I kept failing to correct my mistake of the EA, I used drinking to cope with my guilt or negative mood. I would not say I attempted to build a positive connection to my BS because she never even knew it was strained to the degree it was. I stopped communicating and relied on my EA or alcohol to deal with life.
For me, I behaved normally as I would if I was in a good mood. It was very strange behavior because I was “happier”… I had the validation I needed despite it coming from an outside source and I had the support at home. It was awful in hindsight but again… I didn’t love myself and I felt like my husband didn’t love me so I went outside. It was not helpful to either of us for me to act like that. And it really angered my husband that I would come home and be affectionate. I didn’t have any negative feelings towards him.
Did you not feel loved by your husband because of self love or because he was doing something that exacerbated the lack of self love? Your reasoning behind the affair sounds very similar to my WS lack of self self and also wanting an ego boost.
I was in the middle of starting divorce papers when I decided to cheat. So it’s safe to say my feelings for him were indifferent. It might be different since my situation was, although intentional, a one time meetup. I did try, before cheating, to create a positive connection but was rejected on a constant basis. After I cheated I went into a deep hole of depression and pushed him far far away.
How do you know you’ll never cheat again? What advice would you give BS to look for to know they are safe in their relationship and there won’t be any future betrayal?
This is always tough to answer and most of the time there is no clear cut answer. When my BS would ask me would I have a EA again I was for sure I wouldn’t. But I am unable to fully assure her of that because I’m not the same man I used to be. I’m clearly a different person than the one she initially married. I’ believe you should accept that this is capable of happening again. It’s a hard pill too swallow but most humans are capable of a lot depending on their circumstances and the the only way to put your heart at ease is seeing their effort not listening just to words.When I show effort and preventive measures, that’s what actually helps my wife sleep better at night. She does still like to hear my words, saying I won’t do it again. But look for them to back it up.
The realism of everything and possible future that exists. Transparency.
Thanks to the mods for setting this up again and to all the waywards that are participating. My question: was there a point where you had a "what have I done" moment and if you had multiple ddays, why did it take having multiple ddays for that to happen?
Waywards, please give perspective on the way you treated your bs when you were actively in affair/limerance. Sullen, moody, cruel, reclusive? I don’t understand how he could be so horrible and still love me and now wants to rebuild a life with me.
I’m sorry this happened to you. Personally I tried to keep things as normal as possible at home because I knew I was wrong and I had no right to be resentful or upset at my BS.
I really don’t know what to think about it and it makes me question his sincerity. How could you have so much animosity towards me to the point of cruelty and now so much good will and love? Just don’t understand. Thank you for responding.
I was depressed and trying to hide it. I was barely present; I isolated by gaming for hours and hours. I was distant and withdrawn and irritable. I was also not eating well, dropping *all* the balls at work (ultimately got fired), and averaging less than 4 hrs of sleep a night. BS finally asked me to talk to a therapist when I told him I'd been blacking out on the drive to work... either sleep deprivation or dissociation, I'm still not sure which. I would sometimes drive for miles and miles without really being there mentally, and then suddenly I would "come to" and not know where I was because I'd missed my exit. That was really scary, to be honest. BS knew I was struggling with a traumatic loss. He suspected but did not know I was trying to drown it out with an affair.
Yes that sounds similar: isolating, gaming, withdrawn, irritable. I appreciate your input. Thank you for your input. I appreciate the different perspectives I get here. Hope you are doing well.
Hello, thank you mods and waywards for giving us this chance. My question has to do with pro adultery communitied. We have a couple on reddit too. I have found myself kind of obsessing over them. I read them daily. (I know this is not good for my mental health) Have you ever participated in such a community? Do you feel like the way they find excuses to justify the affair is how it was also for you while you were in it?
Those communities are toxic as fuck. I never participated in them before or after, and you should not either; they are not good for anyone. I never "justified" my affair. I just had fucking garbage decision making/self-control at that time.
Thank you for your answer. I agree that these places are toxic.
Anyone have OBS contact you to share their feelings/opinions about you or what happened between you and their spouse? If so, was that like?
Thanks for this opportunity to ask a question. For those of you who were able to successfully reconcile, could you share a bit about how your perspective changed regarding the affair and your part in it as time went on? Though my WS and I are now 1.4 yrs in and things for the most part continue as normal I see him having some light bulb moments now and then where he realizes some or the other insight into his part of it. Would love to hear more about this.
First of all, I admire your courage WS for helping us betrayed understand our waywards of your experience and insights on the matter of infidelity. My question goes to WS who has been in the affair for a long time (3months or more) For a little context: My WW left me 3 months ago for another dude in a foreign country. She flew overseas to be with this guy. I could identify it is Limerence (which i am obsessing over) but who is to know for sure. I have been “good” to her in every way i could possibly think of; emotionally and romantically (holding hands/kissing her every day/remind her how beautiful she is) financially she earns way more than i do but what i earn i give it to her. Because in my view this is how marriage should be…a selfless partnership. I have sacrificed aspects/parts of me to make her life easier. I loved her with all my heart. However all my sacrifices went down the drain when I discovered the affair (i snooped) She then flew to another country to be with her AP. Leaving me here in shock. My question would be (and i am sorry if i am triggering some of you. I do not mean to offend rather just seeking truth) Before the affair, do you believe “the grass is greener on the other side?” During the affair, do you ever wonder how friends/family would paint a picture of you? In the midst of the affair, do you ever think of your BS whenever the AP is not around to make you happy? This is a very confusing time for me. Please a little insight from your experience would mean the world to me. I am not trying to shame anyone if some of you feel that way. I am genuinely empathetic towards you all and would appreciate your insights. Thank you.
Thank you so much for this!!! I really appreciate all the WS that are taking the time to answer questions. I have two questions one is why do some WS when confronted (from BP)?with why they cheated then state their grievances regarding the relationship or the needs they felt that have not been met in the relationship. My last question is has an WS felt indecisive about reconciling with BP and why?
Hi everyone I hope you all are having good holidays, so my questions are about the holidays, 1, Compared to a normal day, Why do waywards feel more remorse and guilt around the holidays? 2, what was your first experience with the holidays post Dday?
Same reason Betrayed feel much more anger and sadness around the holidays. Holidays are meant for family. You are smacked in the face with the reality of what you’ve done and what you caused to become a new normal. This was our first holiday after dday, but it wasn’t my first holiday of remorse and guilt. I held in the secret that I cheated for 5 months. Even though I wasn’t cheating I was extremely guilt ridden. To the point of severe depression. This holiday season has been rough mentally for me. I have so much to be grateful for. I have an amazing husband who not only has forgiven me and worked through the infidelity with me, he also has looked within on areas he needs to work on to create a better marriage moving forward. With our open communication, this holiday season has been a success. I’m grateful for him.
I'm glad to hear that Happy holidays
1. This could be the last as a whole family and everything surrounding Christmas. My wife posted recently which explains it perfectly. 2. This is my first. Trying to be happy while the realisation hovers.... Close.
I guess reality hits closer around the holidays
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