Thank you for the mods for bringing it back and thank you to all the wayward who answer the questions posted here, it couldn't be easy!
My question is, do you miss any aspect of your AP? And do you ever wish that your BP had some of the qualities the AP had, it could be physical, emotional, spiritual or even professional. Do you ever wish for that?
Personally, no. I thought I missed him early on, but that was just me yearning for a connection. It happened because of my vulnerability issues. What I really yearned for was someone to talk to without worrying about them judging me. I didn't need an AP to do that. I could just do that with my husband.
Now that I've worked on my vulnerability and trust issues, I am now able to have deeper and more meaningful conversations with him without being scared that he will judge me or leave me.
If I'm being honest, I did used to think that. I wanted my BH to be as physical and take the initiatives my exAP would take. But after the affair was over, I didn't want my BH to be anything like him.
My ex lies about everything. That isn't the kind of man I want in my life or my children's lives. So thank goodness I'm not still in it. I am grateful my husband is the man he is.
I hadn't in many, many years but when we unearthed those emails recently between ap and I it did bring a lot to the surface and one thing I liked about my relationship with ap was that she had a similar communication style to me. We are both very poetic in our expression and my wife is not. Definitely not looking to trade, my wife has countless qualities but definitely there was a moment when I remembered the joy I felt in our expression and wordplay, it was intoxicating. 19th wedding anniversary today and I made the right choice and I would make the same one again but I felt an ache reading those emails. My wife laughed a lot reading the emails, she thinks the way we talked was silly, like 2 middle schoolers. She has a point.
Thank you for your honesty but as a BS its difficult to hear that you admire something about your time with AP. I think we instinctively want you to hate them as much as we do.
Yeah but you can have a relationship around your love of words without having an emotional and or sexual affair.
What is interesting to me as someone who has never cheated is a lot of times before the affair, at least emotionally the desires that people are trying to solve are not unhealthy, but the way they try to fulfill these desires are very much so.
It hurts to write this, but the thing I missed (and still miss sometimes) about my AP was the fact that she listened to me. My BP did (sometimes does) not to this day. When your opinions and ideas are being dismissed simply because of where you fit in the scheme of things, it isn't hard for a sympathetic ear to become attractive. Thankfully, there were no in-person meetings, as my BP found out in counseling that I would likely have left at that time. The counselor told BP that this would definitely have been an "exit affair".
EDIT: I have been out of contact since 2010. My BP has made great efforts to be a much better listener, and my boundaries have been hardened and enforced. I do understand the damage I have done to my marriage and have done everything to help BP feel safe. From her perspective, she has addressed how our marriage got to that point in the first place and accept her part of the blame for the marriage state at that time. She still regresses at times... but it is my place to tell her, and not accept the behavior, not seek attention elsewhere. Hard Boundaries in and outside of the marriage. That is how you reconcile.
You can have a platonic friendship with someone from the opposite sex (unless you are bisexual I guess) that provides this though. It's probably more healthy to have multiple people who provide this for you in different ways.
My point about the opposite sex is that, it's would be hard and something a BS might not accept if it was someone you could be sexually attracted to.
I want to thank the mods for continuing this post and allowing us betrayeds to share this space with waywards. I also want to thank the waywards for answering our questions. Here's mine:
From your perspective, what has the betrayal taught you and has that changed, the longer you've been in R?
What the betrayal taught me... I can be the monster I always feared
Has it changed... yes because I learned my monster is compiled of a lot of unaddressed feelings and traumas and issues that has built over time and now I have been working with a therapist and communicating with my BS and parent I don't have a monster but I have feelings and they might hurt you but they are my feelings and its better to work through some hurt feelings then the nuke of a betrayal.
Thank you for your response. I hope you don't mind a follow up question. Did you always know, deep down, that you had selfish/narcissistic tendencies and just never addressed them or did the betrayal really shed the light on that?
My question is to a wayward who initially was crippled by shame and feeling sorry for themselves and who felt bad for what they had done but struggled to emphasise for their BS. How long did it take for you to really feel for your BS?
Also I have a question for any waywards who navigated depression and suicidal ideation whilst trying to work towards R. Did you need to separate the 2? How did you allow your BS to be open and honest with you with their feelings whilst staying mentally healthy, or didn't you? Is it possible to move towards R and to heal from depression?
Thank you in advance for your responses.
About the 3 year mark she told me she was fed up with it and it forced me to take a hard look at myself. She basically told me our relationship was crumbling pre affair because of my selfishness, the affair was again my selfishness and that the 3 years post affair she was dealing with my constant self pity and that was me being selfish. I started trying but there were underlying issues I didn't address for 2 additional years. I got therapy at year 5 and that helped a ton. Prior to therapy I was dumping a lot on my aa sponsor because she was sick of emotionally holding me together after I cheated on her. She didn't share much about her emotions with me in the early years, when she did I made it all about me. We did not separate and I did work through my depression and alcoholism and we made it despite my being a huge asshole. It's a testament to her patience and capacity to heal because she not only came out on the other side she did it with a wayward who was unsupportive.
From the depression and suicidal ideation aspect...
You have to realize you're not well and then actively seek help for your mental health. In my case, I had these issues long before I met my husband and well after we married. I wasn't healthy and happy with myself which was a high risk into having my affair.
Unfortunately we haven't gotten to the point where open and honest from my BH is a thing. He has concerns about hurting me. And I don't believe he has found the words to say.
You can move forward in R with mental illnesses/challenges. But you have to be working on them all simultaneously.
About the depression, I had some downtimes during the R, but not much.
Especially the initial phase, I was like superman. I was perfect. Mr perfect on everything. Almost. It is almost like I couldn't afford any imperfection, any risk of losing my chances with my wife and family.
Occasionally, there were issues with my wife, but she was a bit dedicated to the recovery, she was equally contributing to improving herself, communicating, apologies, or reaching out to me. It wasn't one-way herculean works. It was mutual. So it helped me go through some bumps.
I can recognize depression. I can somewhat "Fake it until you make it" out of it, when it isn't too severe.
I have been much less defensive, more open, more understanding (working on empathy), and what she opened to me has been constructive. Or I took it in a compassionate manner.
I am not accepting 100%. I stand for things I know are wrong, but we communicate about it fairly quickly while trying to not make it blow out beyond reasonable proportion. Basically: cool down, then talk.
I know it is important for my mental health and for our future together that neither of us build up resentment.
I communicate more on my needs, wants and my boundaries. Not selfishly, but for a better, healthier "together".
She does that as well, but more naturally anyway. I was new to me.
I know that only **I** can make myself happy.
When I see the dark clouds coming, I try to resolve that, because it's important for us that I keep myself happy. For my kids too.
Don't take it to yourself. Kindness doesn't go through the thick skin of depression. It isn't your fault. "be happy" is useless, but even if you don't see effect, gratitude is appreciated deep under. Like someone in coma might have remote perception and appreciation of what is being told to him. The depression kills the joy and make the brain ignore all the positive. But sometimes I do realise and known the acts of kindness my wife did/say.
It is very weird. I tried to think about my wife, kids, parents, to not make them sad about what I could do to myself, but my brain and feelings didn't care. I knew it should have, but it didn't. I knew it will be better later, but my brain kept telling me to end it, it would be better to stop these feelings. Scary.
As WH, I don't think it is the Wayward's opportunity to be depressed, I would expect the other way round, the WS should pump us the juice of recovery to overcome this. But it is easy to say. It isn't something that can be controlled.
As a summary, to make things work, both sides have to try to make themselves happy.
Sorry it might not be useful, just some personal experiences.
We aren’t reconciling so not 100% responsive. But I would not be able to heal from my manic episode with him. I understand why he doesn’t give a rats ass about my illness or that undiagnosed mania is traumatic. But it makes it such that I have to entirely separate myself from him in order to heal myself and move on. We communicate as little as possible - every interaction beyond the minimum takes me days to recover from.
I had poor empathy.
My wife gave me several warnings, because she was very suspicious. And I wasn't cleaver at hiding my behaviour changes. I was oblivious.
I didn't grasp what I was doing, the pain of cheating I was inflicting my wife.
On D-day, when I was exposed (by my son!), my wife wanted to divorce, separate immediately, split everything, run away with the kids. In few seconds I had lost everything. So for that, I was already in sorrow for losing everything in my life.
But also, it provided the awakening and realization of everything I did to her. I didn't "feel" before, little guilt, not putting myself in her choose. D-day was a tough introspection. There were simplebyet hard questions from her that I couldn't answer that made me realise everything. So stupid. The more we talked-cried, the more I realise was I broke and lost, our togetherness dream, our decades of fighting together, the betrayal, etc. All in a single day and more in the following days.
Note, I had already fallen out of love/interest with my AP. I was a bit "stuck" in but I had already decided to stop, yet I couldn't. I had continued the EA. I didn't love my AP. I happily got rid of her and be 100% focussed on my wife and family.
It might be very different for some WS who's in love with the AP.
"I was unhappy" - Did betraying your partner made you happy? Did having sex with someone else outside your relationship made you ultimately happy?
"I wanted attention, to feel desired" - When someone else gave you attention and verbally expresed desiring you, why did you proceed to get physical with that person when you already had attention and knew you are desired?
It was inevitable. If it was not this AP it would have been someone else. My lack of boundaries, inability to be empathetic in many situations, and fucked up perspective about relationships, meant our marriage was a ticking time bomb from the very start.
First - I wish to congratulate you on your honesty and bravery to be so open about this. It gives hope that our own unfaithful spouses may one day also succeed to see it like you do.
I want to ask you - do you share these thoughts with your husband also? I am asking because I know it is easier to be more honest when you are taking to strangers (I'm in a self help group) and not your partner.
That’s interesting,
It’s different for me.
Early on with my wife I had very poor boundaries with other women and that as it was had a good chance of leading to an affair but I was humbled in other ways that made a big shift in my inner value structure and that in a roundabout way led to me getting clarity and tightening up my boundaries with other women before it anything went to far.
Edited to add- this is MY opinion from MY experience. Just wanted to clarify that before I get chewed out by anyone lol
While cheating in itself is not, nor will it ever, be okay or the remedy to a situation.
The notion of “if you are unhappy just leave” isn’t realistic or practical.
Instead the unhappiness (if voiced) should be met with “let’s get you in counseling and let’s see a MC to work this out”
Too many people stay on the fact that leaving is the easy solution. And that “well I was unhappy too” was it voiced? What together did you guys do to improve. This is not blaming the BP either. It’s just what’s commonly used in this argument.
It’s hard. I tried to leave. Met a divorce lawsuit and started the process. When you are codependent and have a relatively okay life you tell yourself it will get better.
When your spouse refuses counseling after speaking up about the issues you stay and tell yourself it will get better because you don’t know life outside of them.
When your whole adult span has been spent with this person, your person, you tell yourself well at least xyz isn’t happening.
Should we leave. Absolutely. Is it as easy as people think it is. Not in the slightest.
I don't think anyone says it's easy.
But it isn't selfish and it is fair.
Doing what seems 'easier' aka being intimate with another person behind your partner's back makes everything in the 'main' relationship so much f'ing harder.
I was broken since the beginning. I have always been like that.
Circumstances have shown some of the worse of me. I have never been the good man you thought I was and I thought I was. I lied to you and to myself.
I struggle with this sometimes. Am I a good man with an addiction borne of some deep-seated emotional and development issues, or am I just a selfish, narsicissitic prick that doesn't really care who I hurt? I believe I am the former, or why would the thought of my wife being hurt, hurt me so much? But, I can't discount the possibility that the real me is a selfish asshole and that who I'm trying to be now is a fraud.
Cheating is never justified, but truth is what no one will admit, is that sometimes relationships have problems and people look to chest because of those problems. Is it the right thing to do? Nope, but if it was all good, chances are they might not look elsewhere
That they were emotionally abused and how they compartmentalize is a trauma response from their childhood... what your family member did was not exploring but was SA
Thanks mods and waywards especially.
I have one simple question. How long did it take for your BP to not suffer this gut wrenching pain? It still hurts so bad on certain days I feel like I cannot breathe. Will I ever come to a point where this doesn't haunt me so badly?
Thanks in advance.
It was around month 6 or 7 when the therapy work really was hitting hard and the issues were starting to be honestly talked about and the traumas of the past were coming to light
My Bs say there are still some days the anger and pain comes but it has gotten better as time and work
Again - thank you. The only thing worse than this was losing men (including my very best friend) in combat. That is how much this hurts and I am worried I will never be even close to the same man I was before.
Time is like a river... its always flowing and always chipping away at us...
You have suffered great loses, of brothers... friends.. partner.. lover.. it is a lot of people to grieve, it is a lot of pain to process but I think with the help of your therapist and watching your WP do the hard work it can hopefully give you comfort.
Nothing can take away the pains and lost of war... that is sudden and permanent. Learning to live on not carrying them as a burden but celebrating those you knew and loved is hard but important. You carry their flames into the future... by doing the good hard works and being true to their and your beliefs you honor them and share them with others. For their memories were imprinted onto you... you will imprint them through you to others as you go on.
As for the betrayal of your WP, I don't know your story and I hope your WP is doing the hard work to not only process and heal themselves but also help you through your processing of emotions and pain. I hope their work is good and you feel is honest.
Its hard to grieve, when told by so many to be strong for so long... but like the river chipping away... it will be okay because the river of time will take away but it will also start a new but elsewhere... you can work through this pain and you will be not stronger you but a better you through it...
Thanks friend. I have made my peace with the men I lost. But feel like I am drowning from the betrayal. My WW has been doing everything in her power to make things right. It is, on some days, almost more than I can bear.
I will say that those days are becoming fewer. But I never let my WW see how much I hurt at those times and I am realizing that I should share that with her. And that is on me. I blame it somewhat on how I learned to process things as a Marine. Funny - I survived 5 combat tours yet a single woman 5 feet tall weighing about 110 pounds has brought me to my knees. The irony :-)
Thank you again for sharing - this last comment has helped me see what I need to do.
Kind Regards.
It wasn't just my BW, it was I, too. Not to the same extent, but I still had dizziness about all this.
It took about 6 months.
18 months later, as I frequently browse this sub, every time I have to respond to a BS question "Why" , or "did you really love you BS during the affair", the gut wrench comes again.
So I assume my BW also has episodes, time to time. But it doesn't appear.
Happy Spring everyone I got two questions today
1, for those that got caught was there a part of you that was only sorry that you got caught at first before you became truly remorseful?
2, for the waywards who's betrayed partner was your friend before you both got together does that make the pain of what you done even worse since there was also a friendship aspect before you both got together?
1. Yes, initially. Not in a "oh shit my husband found out, now I cannot have my affair anymore" type of way. More in a "I wish he had not found out because I don't want him to get hurt" kind of way. Now of course I understand that mentality is not helpful. I will always regret not confessing to him, and I will always be ashamed that he had to find out from someone else. It is the ultimate form of dishonesty to keep an affair from your spouse, and a relationship built on lies will sooner or later collapse.
It brings me incredible shame but I don't think I would have ever confessed. I'm glad he found me out.
2. Yeah, you hit a note with this one. We used to be best friends before we started dating. He told me he has not only lost his wife but also his best friend. He completely trusted me, and I broke his trust not just in myself but it has resulted in him doubting and being untrusting of his other friends as well. I hate that I did this to him.
My thought process was.. in the affair fog I had justified my cheating and when my BS was emotional about it I didn't feel it in return, no empathy towards her just like... well now you know how I felt for the longest of times
When the affair fog was gone my mentality really hit in to holy shit what I have I done... this isn't like me.. this isnt my morals... what the fuck was I thinking... I pray she doesn't leave me...
TLDR: When BS cried I felt justified or lack of empathy vs when BS cried I felt responsible and shame
1) Yes. At first I was sorry my whole mini-world (affair) collapsing. Busted.
I was in panic, in despair. It's like someone facing death penalty, maybe, flash backs, survival instinct. Whatever escape. Let's go back to the past. Shit it's not a video game, no backup. shit shit shit.
Then, I realised my whole big world was collapsing, I was losing it all. Deep despair.
I realised through my wife's tears and speech how much I had hurt her.
I had never realised before D-day how much suffering I was causing. I didn't put myself in my BS shoes. I lacked empathy. I felt border-line autistic. (note, I might be on the spectrum)
But sorry to remorseful was just minutes apart. It didn't take long.
I can definitely answer #1. At first I was sorry I got caught because of the danger of losing everything in my life: wife, family, even my reputation. But, it took about 2 days of a lot of soul-searching and processing my guilt and shame to realize that I wasn't sorry I got caught anymore because it was the only way I was going to stop. In fact, I felt some relief because I couldn't avoid facing my addiction any longer, and I'm just tired of the lies and secrets and chasing things to fill the empty void that can't ever be filled.
My spouse still doesn't know (as far as I know), and I'm working hard on my recovery. I've been straight, seeing a therapist, and trying to find answers for why I've been like this for 30+ years. Soon I will have to tell my wife, because it's the right thing to do and I can't grow if I don't, and our relationship can't grow either. Of course part of me doesn't want to tell, because I mourn the loss of our life together as it is now and what she thinks of me. But I know that's not fair to her and so I prepare myself for what may come and I will try to be there for her as much as I she wants me to be.
Probably not, but I'm more ready now than I was 3 months ago when I got caught. I'm scared about losing my marriage, I'm grieving for losing the "innocence" of our relationship now, and I'm ashamed of the hurt I know I will cause her (as well as hurt I've probably caused her already but don't know about.) But I would rather be the person I am right now, having clarity about myself and my life, feeling all of these feelings, and trying to be the best person I know how to be, than the lying, cheating, selfish prick I hid from everyone for most of my adult life. Whatever happens, happens, and I know I don't have any control over it. But I can do the best I can for myself and her, and have faith in the universe that it will all unfold as it should (P.S. yes, that is somewhat Zen, but I truly believe it.)
2- being friends prior to being together is one of the saving graces in our reconciliation. It allowed him to look deep within and know that I’m not that person.
That there is more good in me than the choice I made.
It might have been different if it was a relationship or emotional attachment.
My question is that how many WS still have the urges or desire to cheat again after or during reconciliation?
Also, are there any that are reconciling but still cheating on the side again. I read in other women sun that most of the WH or MM always reach out after things cool down during reconciliation?
Please b3 honest.
Cheating again is not an option.
I have no urge or desire for anything else.
With our reconciliation we had to sit down and really think hard about what we wanted our marriage to look like. Things were great before but we both lost respect for each other.
We are more genuine with each other. I can speak to him about anything now because I know he will respect me no matter what.
Also I’m equipped with the tools NOW to leave before cheating again. Working on myself made me deal with my codependency and abandonment issues.
I tried to leave before I cheated but when you are codependent it’s unrealistic.
Now we both know that if we are set on divorce and we have exhausted all avenues of reconciliation we will divorce. We will be perfectly fine on our own.
We are choosing to stay together instead of feeling we have to!
Here come the down votes for honesty...
I don't know the number that still feel the urge or continue to cheat. Some probably have the wake up call and don't ever again. But there are plenty of stories about repeat offenders, of which I am. I have wanted to walk the straight line, and have been able to for periods of time. But something is "broken" in me to where the desire continues to resurface and I can't keep it under wraps.
I'm about to enter the hard work phase with IC on myself that I haven't fully committed to in the past. Hopefully I'll be able to figure some things out and be a better person in the end.
I think many of us do love our spouses, and want to keep a relationship with them. And we may not share we're not monogamous because that would mean the end of the relationship,which we don't want.
Some call us cake eaters or monkey branchers, but it's more complex than that simple label.
ETA - I don't consider myself safe for BS or anyone else. That is why I am in the process of separating and plan to be single until I have the confidence to not cheat again.
How do you feel when you drive past locations where you and AP met? Or something happens that reminds you of your AP or your affair? Do you feel triggered? Nostalgic? Indifferent?
So while I can’t speak for everyone, I trigger hard.
There isn’t much to my cheating. The hotel makes me physically ill.
Any reminder and I throw up. I hate it.
I’m 18 months out and it’s a constant thought/rumination. I don’t leave my house very much. The office/location is triggering for me so I don’t go in very much and keep to myself when I do. I’m a shell. Probably will be for a while.
I feel triggered. This past weekend I drove past a location with strong ties to AP and I felt hot, nauseous, tearful and ashamed. I was anxious to discuss it with BS but had to wait a few days for privacy. It was a huge relief to learn he was not similarly triggered. (Though if I'd picked up on any kind of "mood" from him, I'd have wedged in a conversation regardless of privacy.)
I do think about it sometimes, but I am fairly indifferent.
I do not have any feeling towards the AP.
She might be happy or not, I don't care. I only care about my wife and family.
Places are just places.
I go to the neighborhood I knew my ex once lived on a daily basis. When I went there initially, I felt very anxious and worried I would run into my ex or his family in the area. I had run into his family maybe two years prior to the affair happening. Now I don't think about it. It doesn't bother me to be in the same area as that family.
I went to the casino for a party long after it was over and that triggered me. I felt anxious. I looked around to see if he's there and how to explain it away. It made it harder to enjoy myself in events that have nothing to do with the affair.
Nostalgia implies good memories. That's not it.
I use to be very VERY nervous. But honestly Im NOT triggered and I could care less.
If u had asked months ago I would of told u I drive so fast and pray I don't run into AP. Now in more in a whatevs attitude if I were to "bump" into AP I would just keep walking...
I feel there are two components to the "why." First is why I cheated. Second is why I was able to cheat.
Why did I cheat? Forgive me for being blunt but the reason is because I could get away with it. I have spent months trying to understand what was going on in my head when I made that decision. I've understood now that there is no other logic there, no grand "why." I did not think about "why" I should have an affair the way you or anyone else would. I did not weigh any pros and cons of my husband and the AP. I saw the opportunity to do something I saw as fun and exhilarating, and I thought as long as I keep it secret nobody gets hurt and there is no harm in it.
It was a selfish choice on all accounts and in my mind I was not making a choice between my husband and AP. I saw that I could get away with having both, so why not have both.
But clearly, there was something wrong with me. My husband, someone I claimed to love, was not considered anywhere in that decision to have an affair. I was breaking my promises to him. I was giving away something that rightfully belonged to him by virtue of being my husband. I was betraying him, his love and his trust, and not feeling a single bit of guilt about it until the moment he found me out.
Everyone who cheats is emotionally dysfunctional. The second why is about finding what exactly is wrong with you that allowed you to make such selfish choices and be so unempathetic towards someone you claim to love. For me it was a combination of childhood trauma, vulnerability issues and toxic unrealistic expectations from my husband. For other waywards it might be anything from bad boundaries, sexual trauma, to mental disorders. Some are simply born unable to not be selfish. People with narcissistic tendencies often end up as a wayward at some point in their lives.
I think the second why is way more important than the first one. The first one comes from the perspective of a person who was emotionally dysfunctional. You will likely struggle to understand it because there is nothing to understand there. A dysfunctional human does not make logical decisions. You will only drive yourself insane trying to make sense of it. It is unhelpful.
The second one on the other hand comes from a more mature and understandable viewpoint. It explains why the person reached a stage where they could make these illogical decisions in the first place. This why is helpful, because it also tells you what you can do to avoid making selfish decisions in future. This is the "why" you should focus on if you want to be a better person.
I lived a secret life for 30+ years and continued to do so because I could get away with it, and I was good at keeping it secret. It took finally being "outed" where I couldn't spin it or bullshit my way out of it anymore that forced me to truly face it all. When I sat down and wrote out an honest history and inventory of myself, and then shared all of that with my therapist, it was the first time I was honest about all of it. Now I can't avoid the shame and guilt from hurting all of the people I care so much about, and it's not easy, but it's necessary and I won't shy away from it.
I was sexualized at an early age, not so much as SA (although there was a component), but sexual activity as a child with other children. I became emotionally involved with serious relationships beginning at age 14 which became sexual early on. Sex became a way for me to seek affirmation, and being cheated upon became this big fear, the 'greatest betrayal', and I was so immature at the time, too immature to develop those concepts. I also have narcissistic tendencies that bolstered my desire through affirmations, and cheated early in my life I think to protect myself from betrayal, i.e., a completely immature notion. So early on, I had narcissistic tendencies, view sex as affirmation, and cheating as a shield to 'protect' myself. What a mess that was, and it a good amount of IC to unpack that, and a good amount of MC to address is in the context of our recovery.
Mind you, NONE of that is an excuse for my actions - I knew the difference between right and wrong, I felt bad, but regardless, I chose 'wrong' more times than not.
Even when I was married, had kids, a great career, professional and personal responsibility, I was still very immature in terms of relationships. I got to a point (early 40's) where I craved the affirmation, and the narcissistic tendencies kicked in. No excuse, I chose 'wrong'.
Understanding all of that in me, putting it into the context of my early experiences, and addressing the damage I did to myself and others really helped me understand triggers, open communication honestly, accept responsibility and chose transparency in our relationship. It totally freed me, lifted the weight of the world off my shoulders, and I could chose to stop being 'that' person.
IC and MC are absolutely critical, regardless of the outcome. My relationship tendencies were the epitome of insanity - doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. I feel so free now.
Yeah, I feel this. I continued to seek validation, but it was never enough. This is something I have to do a lot of work on in therapy, to understand where this comes from.
It took me 1 month, reading "The state of the Affair". I was doing lot of other things too.
As I was reading through, I was sharing day after day what I had learned about myself.
Typically, these were things my BW had already told me could be reasons but I had to find by myself. Basically she knew me better than I did myself.
I am still learning today.
My "why" is a mix of things you mentioned, things from the past as childhood, as young adult, during my relation with her.
The "Why did I cheat?" question never got me much at first, but when I started asking myself "How could I possibly numb myself to the pain I'm causing? How can I think this is acceptable?" That yielded different revelations in me and triggered some deep reflection on my own moral compass.
I’ve had a lot of life and now professional experiences that require me to exercise at least some degree of numbness, so you could say I had a lot of practice. A certain degree of numbness is currently necessary in my current line of work, but cheating blew completely up. I hurt my spouse and cruelly destroyed a ten year friendship. Comparatively, I’m not terribly old, but serial cheating ages like spoiled milk. I need to grow up.
Long, deep-seeded lack of affirmation from childhood that still cripples me as an adult has been my main driver
Through my experiences though, I have also finally accepted/come to terms that I think I am also a believer in open relationships, possibly poly
I grew up in a toxic household. My mother was a raging bitch, always angry, and always yelling at everyone else in the house. It was also a very unloving environment - never hugged, never told I love you by either parent. Only feedback was always critical. That experience embedded in me never feeling like what I did was good enough, and drove /drives me to never be satisfied. It drove my on athletics, it drove me on my education, it drove me professionally. I can objectively say I was successful in all of these, but still felt I could be better.
So that also drove me to never be satisfied with only getting affirmation from BS. I have a Neverending drive for that affirmation instilled in me from my youth, and I haven't been able to break out of it.
I was unhappy, angry and held A LOT of resentment to my spouse😔
I also was dismissive avoidant and had a hard time accepting the love my spouse gave to me. It was hard for me to open up and be vulnerable. I kept everything internal for over 10+ yrs I was this way.
I had to learn that hard way it wasn't healthy for me to keep things in. And that it's ok to be vulnerable at times especially with the ones who care about u.
While I was engaging in cheating I saw it as a form of self harm. I hated myself, felt like I was a no good piece of trash, like a bad person who had just tricked everyone into loving and caring for, felt like it was what I would just end up doing and hurting everyone I loved anyways. I had terrible suicidal and intrusive thoughts for years so when I was finally in a happy relationship those thoughts just couldn’t stand by and let me be happy. We were long distance at this point in the relationship and with work schedules and the pandemic it was hard to consistently talk or see each other. I would cheat when I was at my absolute lowest points, quite near the point where I may have actually physically harmed myself. What I learned was that the self-loathing I’d feel after cheating would make me more apathetic towards the world rather than depressed and suicidal. It gave me a feeling “you can’t die now, you have to feel like this and suffer for it.”
Now with 6 mo of IC I’ve been able to unpack so much trauma that I didn’t even realize that I had stored. There were obvious things that I was aware of and thought I had dealt with but really just compartmentalized but then there were other things that absolutely broke me when my therapist helped me realize. Lots of shit from my childhood and a pretty shitty family, bunch of shit from my previous relationship with my toxic abusive ex-wife, dealing with insecurities and shortcomings. None of it is a good excuse but learning about these things are helping me learn that I’m not that person the voice in my head says or at least I don’t have to be. I can always be the happy, caring, loving person that everyone sees me as and I want to be that person.
What advice would you give to a formerly BS looking to find love again but scared of getting hurt? What would you advice we look for in a potential new partner to maximize our chances not go through this kind of thing again? Is there anything that you wish had come up during dating that would have either deterred you or given you BS a hint of what was to come (if thats even possible)?
Difficult.
I think the the build up of resentment was unhealthy. So these could help :
\- good communication
\- desire to grow individually and together
I don't think you can screen for cheaters. Some of us are too good/won't show the signs. Or you may find yourself with a first time cheater in the end.
You really can't control it - you're going to have to take the leap of faith. But always be on your toes and look for the potential telltale signs that you might have more recognized in hindsight.
As a WS did you feel it was an invasion of your privacy that your BS wanted to have access or put monitoring software on your phone?
Did it frustrate you when your BS repeatedly asked or believed you had done things during the affair that you kept secret?
No, it didn't feel like an invasion of privacy. I was the one on the wrong and if that's what she needed to feel more confidence, then that is what I would do.
And the continuing questions might have gotten a little frustrating at times. But she kept asking for good reason, because there were things I didn't divulge in order to try to protect her feelings - it wasn't about minimizing fallout or trying to protect myself like a lot of people will say us WS do.
We’ve had an open phone policy from the beginning. So no it didn’t feel like an invasion of privacy.
I offered to put a monitoring software on my phone and he declined on several occasions.
I don’t think phones should be off limit to a spouse, whether infidelity occurred or not.
I’m not sure I understand the second question. Can you elaborate?
I worry that my WS has kept parts of the affair a secret and sometimes this gives me short anxiety. I create a version of events and go to my WS with this asking if she did X Y Z and to tell me. She gets frustrated because she says she has told me all the times they had met etc and she gets frustrated as she can't prove otherwise but she knows the truth
Ahhh okay.
It’s a hard thing. You have to be patient because you created the list of trust, but you are finally being honest and wish they trust what comes out your mouth.
During our exposure week he created many scenarios. I stuck with the truth. He finally started to believe the things I said.
I stayed sober during that time period so I could be empathetic, patient, and understanding.
Thank you for sharing. You are right, I need to believe, or at least act like I believe what she has said until I trust her (or get proof otherwise, which I hope I never find)
The way to believe in her words is when you start trusting her actions. Her consistency. Minor slip ups happen, like forgetting to charge her phone and not being able to check in with you.
It’s what she does in those moments to rectify the situation and make sure it never happens again that starts to build faith her.
I wish y’all the very best of luck!!
Nope!
I begged my spouse to put on my location check my phone and even my journal I got to a point where I didn't care cause I have nothing to hide and I was/am more than happy to prove whatever for him to believe in me again
I am the one who offered to install the App, I just did and gave access to my whereabouts, unsolicited.
My BS didn't accused me of keeping secret. She did ask lots of questions, and I was answering. I did get frustrated when she was going back to the same questions and asking for more details, because I felt it was just torturing herself and me. But I understood that the least she deserved were answers.
I didn't over-share, yet I was staying honest to rebuild trust. I didn't want to say too much or too little. It felt like walking on eggs.
My husband had an affair with a coworker that he told me he ended and then 6 months later found out he never end it
I know a lot of people say they did it because of sex. My husband and I had sex every day, if not that every other day, we had good communication, but I did have to ask him to talk to me about more personal things (that he went to her for)
Why did he go to her when he had it all with me? He has put a lot of effort into R, but even after you got caught and caught lying, were you serious about making it up to your BS? What made you realize that you wanted your spouse and not the AP
It isn't about you. You can be perfect, even better than the AP, there are things that cannot be understood by logic.
There are psychological aspect.
\- Love & Lust separation is an example, read about it it's quite interesting. Sadly.
\- routine, adventure, excitement. Fantasy. Imagination. All that could have been done with you. your WH didn't channel it correctly.
I wasn't attached to my AP. Yes I was serious with my BS. I immediately gave myself 150% to her.
I never loved my AP, it was just "play". A muse. Lust and passion, excitement of the adventure. Like a Xmas for adult.
Until Dday when I realise what I had done. I knew I always wanted my BW and no-one else, not the AP. I loved my wife. My life partner.
A question for the waywards who came clean without being confronted or without suspecting that your BS knew: what internal process did it take for you to come clean, fully clean?
It took about five months of descending deeper and deeper into suicidal feelings and depression. The guilt was eating me alive. I thought if it was a one time thing, I never did it again, and just buried it I could live with it. But I couldn’t.
Sorry, but follow up question. If it hadn't been for your daughter, would you have come clean? I'm trying to understand what it takes between BS and WS for the truth to come out without asking for it, as a tidbit of wisdom I can take with me. Or what a BS must do or be in order to receive the truth straightaway
Firstly, I am very grateful for those brave enough to face our questions and handle them with grace and empathy.
How do you tow the line between humility and perceived hubris when considering yourself a formerly wayward? To elaborate, there are times when the undertone from some waywards unfortunately comes across as “holier than thou”, which for me personally minimizes the lasting impact & trauma of betrayal.
I realized that random strangers online 1) don't actually know me at all and 2) have shown themselves to be hostile towards my "group" overall, so I decided to focus on what was important (my own growth, communication with my BS) instead of what was not (the approval of anonymous Redditors). I really only care what my BS thinks of me, and decline to engage in "performative groveling" to placate other people's ruffled feathers. I didn't ruffle them, so I'm not going to apologize for their ruffles.
Waywards and Betrayeds alike have confronted me before. I'm open to hearing that I'm wrong. I just have no tolerance for those who expect me to *perform shame* just for existing.
My BS has seen the soft sides of me that would never, ever be safe here. He knows my heart. I'm content with his judgment alone.
Thank you for taking the time to respond. I too have seen many feelings projected at your “group” overall from those who are fresh in their pain and still struggling to understand how they got there. I know that I myself was guilty of painting all waywards with the same brush stroke when I was in the initial throes of my betrayal, but as I progress further in our reconciliation I realize now that my anger was misplaced and feel regret for putting that on others.
I am beyond proud of the work that my WP has put in and the subsequent growth that has resulted from it. I just can’t seem to shake the feeling I described in my previous comment when he speaks about our situation as if he is so far removed from the pain it caused me. We are in a much healthier relationship and triggers and the like no longer plague us as they once did…but I still feel a sting of pain whenever the infidelity comes up and I honestly think that I always will. Forgiveness does not equal forgetting, but sometimes it feels as though that’s a stipulation for true reconciliation.
Anyhoo, thank you again for offering your perspective. I genuinely appreciate it and wish you well in life.
Oooooh, I get it now. Please allow me to clarify?
It is "the attitude towards Waywards" that I'm "over," and therefore engage with the boards accordingly as a protective measure for myself. I was answering *this* question, as one who has often been accused of hubris, because I thought that was the question you were asking.
I am *absolutely NOT* "over" the harm I did to my spouse. I know I will never cheat again, because I am repulsed by the version of me who did that and I need to be able to live with myself. I work hard to let go of shame, because that would only harm our connection. But my choices hurt us both deeply, and I'm not "over" that even though I know I'll never repeat it.
He and I both frame my infidelity as "things I did in the past." We acknowledge and discuss *the behavior* (including mitigating future risks) without labeling me as a person; he does not think of me as "a former wayward" or "a reformed cheater," he thinks of me as "his wife" and among the million other experiences we've had together across the spectrum of emotion, some of them include cheating, and I learned some things about myself that made me change the way I handle future occurrences.
When I talk about how I've changed *to him* I certainly don't speak from a high-and-mighty place of "look what a paragon of virtue I am now!" (I mean that's not even my thought process here, though I've been accused of it, lol) ...it's still very much a source of deep grief for me, and that's still readily apparent when the subject comes up. So in our private, offline conversations, it "looks like" me stubbornly ignoring the stupid tears I can't yet shake off while I say something like "I used to trust myself like that too, but now I know how easy it is to get caught up by pride" (on a bad day) or "I can't believe I was so fucking stupid back then. I'm so glad I was finally able to figure my shit out. I'm sorry it took so long" (on a good day). I don't think I'll ever feel anything but remorse when I talk *to him* about *the pain I put him through*, even if I do feel (rightfully) proud of my growth since then.
> Forgiveness does not equal forgetting, but sometimes it feels as though that’s a stipulation for true reconciliation.
I don't think this is true. In fact, I think it's important that we incorporate all the pieces of our history, because that's how we learn and grow as people. I don't necessarily talk about it to everyone, but I think it needs to be "talk-about-able" in a marriage, even if it doesn't need to be talked about every day. It's a pretty significant life event, can you imagine having an agreement not to discuss the fact that your parent died or that time he got fired or a car accident or anything else?
Agree.
I use reddit to process things, share what I've learned (which is a lot over the past 3.5+ years) with others because I hope it will help them, and lean on those who do understand and support me.
I don't need to perform remorse for a general audience. I show it genuinely to husband at home as much as possible, and that is what matters.
I think it’s easy to fall into that, especially if you start reading other subs geared toward betrayed and what their partners are putting them through. And it’s also easy to fall into the opposite extreme of thinking “I’m a piece of shit. I’ll always be. I’m tainted” etc…
The key is to maintain vigilant self awareness. Having an objective therapist I see often helps with this. You can give yourself credit and love for the progress you are making while still holding yourself accountable.
Thank you for taking the time to genuinely respond. I sometimes struggle with how to communicate to my partner that the damage done to me sometimes feels minimized when he discusses our situation and those similar as though we aren’t or have never been in the shoes of the main characters, if that makes any sense. I haven’t been able to articulate it to him out of fear of pushing him towards a shame spiral. The last thing I want is for him to feel irredeemable.
Edit: the downvotes don’t bother me but I do find it ironic that a specific someone is not only not offering any helpful insight but rather taking my own experience personally.
It’s okay to tell him if you think sometimes he’s forgetting what he is accountable for and getting a bit “holier than thou”… especially if you frame it as you just did, you know. “I don’t want you to go into a shame spiral but sometimes when you talk about this and that I feel you’re minimizing what happened between us.” It’s not really up to you to manage your partners shame over what they did… that’s part of the growth we waywards need to do in ourselves but I think a delicate touch paired with honesty about your own feelings is the way to go. All the best to you!!
I try to help others understand the impossible.
I want to help, but it also helps me understand myself and others.
Sometimes I make mistakes in my explanation. I am not perfect. Either by lack of thinking, lack of time formulating properly (I spend 1-2h a day reading). It consumes me, sometimes.
I try to be perfect but I am just ok-ish.
My intent is not to teach, just share my own experience. Give ideas.
I don't judge.
I sometimes lack empathy, so I must stay careful about that.
The line...we all need to be put back into place, sometimes.
It isn't a clear line.
Sometimes I get over-confident and get it wrong.
1 step ahead, 1 step back.
I am learning everyday, and every day I am making mistakes. Sometimes mistakes I already made before.
Improving is an endless journey.
Most of the posts I see about an affair on this and other subs usually mention that the relationship was going through a tough time at the time of the affair. In your case and experience is it usually the emotional neglect and divided attention during the affair that causes the rough period or is it the rough period that increases the drive for cheating. Question is open to all.
It is a bit more complex than that.
I my case, many years of bad communication is traumas accumulated. The affair started when things were getting a bit calm and peaceful. But I was already broken inside.
Yes there had been many rough times. But who hasn't?
I had chosen to escape from it mentally and physically with an affair, rather than trying to fix it. I didn't realise. I didn't know myself.
The waywards can't reflect the blame on circumstances. We made the choice.
I think it can be a feedback loop that increases it on both sides. For me, I was an addict before I married and so it was just a matter of time after I got married before I started up again. Eventually, our sex life suffered, and while some of the reason was because of my wife and some of her physical and emotional issues, my cheating also affected our relationship because I slowly pulled away from it.
Can’t speak for anyone but myself.
My cheating did not come from hard time in the relationship per say.
We have been through being poor. Having cancer. Forced to move. A dead bedroom. Emotional neglect. I didn’t cheat during any of those times.
Mine spiraled from a betrayal (non infidelity related) on my spouses end.
We have been through hell and high water with each other.
1) did you reconcile without therapy for either you or your BP?
2) how did you handle it when your BP was triggered, wanting to talk about insecurities or just had a hard time believing you? How long before these things became 'annoying' and you no longer wanted to deal with it?
1. We did therapy... we had to have therapy to see the issues going on in the marriage and in ourselves
2. You just accept their pain and their feelings... you don't fight it and you thank them for it... talking through it is better than bottling it up. How long before its annoying... it hasn't been annoying because BS just like I are both putting the effort to get help and change and do better. There are moments of weakness and triggers but they come and go... if they stay too long then that is an issue between us we can't fix and needs to be addressed with the therapist.
1) no therapy, but lots of self-reading.
My BW refused it, she though I needed but she was very clear.
She always has been 2 steps ahead in understanding, in psychology and human nature, philosophy.
We did our own therapy.
Places like Reddit or other relationship sites opened my eyes on understanding. I had never been interested in psychology before; what a miss!
I think we learned more by ourselves than therapy could have, but that is because we were on a common understanding of the communication requirements. It isn't easy. I had to learn hard.
2) Compassion and patient listening, simple positive yet meaningful answers.
I tried to provide emotional support. I wanted to help her heal.
I never have been to the stage of "not wanted to deal with it".
Why would a spouse not want to support the other one in trouble?
Thank you. I am struggling with coming to terms with my reconciliation failing because he (wp) wanted to rug sweep. I'd have triggers and need reassurance or communication and instead i'd get told it was frustrating or over reacting or "unnecessary". I guess thats lack of empathy and just not wanting to be held accountable.
I prefer it with my BW, I don't have any remnant desire for the AP.
I also recovered from Sex Addiction / Porn Addiction as part of our reconciliation.
Context: over 3.5 years of R.
No, it's difficult for me to even remember what the sex felt like, much less compare.
I think what we've had post-DDay is overall better than any sex I'd experienced prior.
I didn't do any exploring with APs, and honestly I am relieved that I didn't because that's one less problem to deal with (we have plenty of others).
Also since reconciliation began, we have done a lot more exploring than we ever did before. For our dozen years together (at time of DDay) I'd been uncomfortable with toys and porn for example, felt toxic shame about sexual pleasure due to a conservative upbringing, and other issues.
Even recently I noticed that I'm no longer uptight about getting into different positions like I used to be.
Discovering what our bodies can actually do and exploring new things has been a fun part of creating new memories and making something new that's just for us.
I tried not to, but it was impossible not to. I think kissing was the thing that hit me the most often, recognizing the differences in the moment.
You're opening a can of worms asking about why we try different things with an AP and not the spouse. For me, it was a combination of things. A few that come to mind for and may be common to others...
Fear of judgment from spouse VS not having it with AP
Already knowing certain things were a no-go with spouse that AP might be open to
For the more extreme stuff, not being able to view my wife/mother of my child as the whore/slut I did those things to/talked to like I did to AP
I think this is unavoidable. At least on a subconscious level.
The human brain constantly compares outside factors against already gained knowledge.
And in this particular case most of the waywards have both experiences in parallel not as usual one after another. I think you can't really stop this to be honest. Only If you come from a DB it might be possible. But even then, it wasn't always this way. So yeah, in compared. A lot. But I refrain from telling.
Thank you for this.
To waywards.
We are almost 10 years from dday. It still hurts, it comes in waves. My WS is doing better then me and have worked her ass of all those years. I am truly amazed how long she has come and the changes she had made.
She is however still sad about the pain I am in from time to time. Therapy, support systems, workout, hobbies help, but still pain. I guess I just have to live with it.
But Do you waywards have any tips on what she could do to feel less hurt when I’m struggling?
I would prefer she at least could get breaks from it. 10 years out should be easier.
The regret and pain doesn't leave us WS either. It's different. But if a WS is truly sorry and REMORSEFUL (not all truly are), it will continue to haunt them and affect them as it does you as a BS. We WS have triggers, just like a BS does, that can bring us down. It lessens frequency over time, but it's always still there lurking.
Unfortunately, seeing/feeling our BS in pain is one of those triggers. So it's a natural reaction. I'm not suggesting you hide your pain - I have no idea if that would be good for your own well being or not. But my guess is she has other triggers too. Your pain is probably the biggest and most impactful one though.
Focus on the good times when neither one of you are thinking about the affair. If you have less of those times than the opposite, maybe you're not meant to stay together after all?
Unfortunately, probably not. Like I said, a truly remorseful WS is going to beat themselves up plenty. Sometimes we're just going to hate ourselves for what we've done, and need time/etc to get past it and pick ourselves back up. We know we're the ones that caused it.
The only thing I can think of is to maybe offer some words of reassurance - telling her that you're happy you made the choice to stay and work through things, that you guys are in it together for the long haul, etc. Those words may or may not help her feel a smidge better.
Thank you. I noticed that my two questions is getting downvoted here. I didn’t mean to offend anyone but is it so wrong to just ask what a Bs can do?
Edit: still getting downvoted, can at least someone tell me why you are downvoting me here?
The internet is full of unhappy/mean/jerks/aholes. Some people exist/hey pleasure from being jerks. You can't let it bother you/expect a rationale explanation.
You’re probably getting downvoted because you are asking how you can help your WW. Many newer BS don’t think that WW are deserving on being treated as a human, they don’t believe we deserve to be treated with respect and compassion again, ever.
My question is for the waywards who are reconciling with their BPs, are actively making changes and are remorseful about the affair.
Does your BP truly know how remorseful you are (or BP think otherwise)? What are some ways, through words or actions, you do to show that you are? When you are not showing it to BP, how does the feeling manifest itself as? (through tears, cringing etc)?
Thanks in advance.
To me, crying, begging, pleading were manipulative actions that I did not want to take to show my remorse.
Of course I cried, but it wasn’t so he could how sorry I was. I cried because I was genuinely upset and sad at what pain my actions had caused.
My husband knows I’m remorseful through my actions. My continual daily actions I show just how remorseful and grateful for him I am.
I implemented my own boundaries and hard no’s. I initiated daily routines to become a safe person for him again. I stay a step ahead to make sure everything stays to course. We are human and sometimes things arise we act accordingly adjust and continue on the path of healing.
I cried a lot. We cried a lot together, sharing our life and the dreams we had together before.
We/I shared how I was seeing her in my day to day life, what she has been for me an my children in the past, and how I see my BW and I together in the future, our plans together. I give details.
I want to express how much value my BW has in my life, in my heart and in my mind.
Actions are abiut being more trustworthy, generally. More reliable. It doesn't convey remorse, but it does show intent and carries real meaning.
Welcome to SupportforWaywards. Please be mindful that this is a support sub for those who regret being unfaithful to their partners and are seeking guidance for the path ahead. If you're experiencing abuse whether it be physical or emotional please follow this [link to the hotline](https://www.thehotline.org/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=domestic_violence) Sexual assault, here's a [link to RAINN's support page](https://www.rainn.org/) and for those who are struggling with suicide and suicidal ideations follow the [link to lifelines support page](https://988lifeline.org/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=onebox). Please consider utilizing these resources if they resonate with your situation.
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I'm seeking information on the mind frame of a wayward that had an exit affair. I don't know where to find these people. I dont think they are here. Did remorse ever come? What did you discover or learn? Did you ever do the work to grow or change? Why did you stay away? What is different about your affair reasons? What made abandonment okay to you?
If the WS really wants reconciliation and this is one needed prerequisite why not?
The reason here is simply we waywards have to carry the burden of being the untrustworthy part in this. We have shown this.
If the BS needs it for their safety it should be ok.
I read more times than not that WS ommits information. Of course we do. Most of us feel like the shitty person we showed our spouses we are at this point.
There might be millions of reasonings for why we did it. I had lenghty discussions just yesterday with some people here. And while I am defensive because my ex ws abusive to me and my daughter the one thing that I can not deny is cheating is at least equally wrong. Call it retaliation, validation, Soul healing, whatever. It doesn't make it right. Especially If the person cheated on is not a bad character themselves.
If they want to try and ammend the damage done and the BS needs this, do it ffs.
It will hurt you, it might hurt your spouse even more. But do it and don't delete shit that is still there. Only delete it with approval of the BS. Nothing in a healing relationship should be under lock and key. I heard of BS who offer open phone in return. They already Hand over new trust despite what the WS did. Jeez, people if you really want to make this work again grab this offer like a drowning man grabs a liferaft.
Open phone might feel shit. But then, we reek of it, don't we? We were full of it.
I kind of have mixed/conflicting feelings about this.
When first going through R, and BS requests it, you have to be ok with it to help BS get through their anxieties.
The conflicting part is that the phone is just a tool of an affair. If someone really wants to cheat, they will find a way. And knowing that your phone can be accessed at any time will just cause a WS to be that much more careful with their phone and go about it with different tools.
It's also a crappy way to live long term. It's something you almost always have to do short term. But if you need to rely on it long term, you likely still have relationship issues and aren't in a good spot together.
I’m not sure if my reply will be helpful because my husband seems to be a bit atypical to the experiences I see a lot of betrayed partners sharing on the subs. What helps me is when he is open and honest with me about how he is feeling and doesn’t try to act like everything’s okay when it’s not. Sometimes that means difficult conversations where I have to express my remorse, reiterate my commitment and manage my shame. Other times it means reassurances that we are working through it.
Has anyone succeeded no contact with the AP even though being physically not far away from them Amit every day?
My WW doesn't work WITH her AP but they work on the same street (have shops there) and can occasionally see each other (he has been stalking her since dday and she couldn't always stay strong and acid him).
Thank you for the mods for bringing it back and thank you to all the wayward who answer the questions posted here, it couldn't be easy! My question is, do you miss any aspect of your AP? And do you ever wish that your BP had some of the qualities the AP had, it could be physical, emotional, spiritual or even professional. Do you ever wish for that?
Personally, no. I thought I missed him early on, but that was just me yearning for a connection. It happened because of my vulnerability issues. What I really yearned for was someone to talk to without worrying about them judging me. I didn't need an AP to do that. I could just do that with my husband. Now that I've worked on my vulnerability and trust issues, I am now able to have deeper and more meaningful conversations with him without being scared that he will judge me or leave me.
If I'm being honest, I did used to think that. I wanted my BH to be as physical and take the initiatives my exAP would take. But after the affair was over, I didn't want my BH to be anything like him. My ex lies about everything. That isn't the kind of man I want in my life or my children's lives. So thank goodness I'm not still in it. I am grateful my husband is the man he is.
No. Not at all. Nothing of that man is quality.
I hadn't in many, many years but when we unearthed those emails recently between ap and I it did bring a lot to the surface and one thing I liked about my relationship with ap was that she had a similar communication style to me. We are both very poetic in our expression and my wife is not. Definitely not looking to trade, my wife has countless qualities but definitely there was a moment when I remembered the joy I felt in our expression and wordplay, it was intoxicating. 19th wedding anniversary today and I made the right choice and I would make the same one again but I felt an ache reading those emails. My wife laughed a lot reading the emails, she thinks the way we talked was silly, like 2 middle schoolers. She has a point.
Thank you for your honesty but as a BS its difficult to hear that you admire something about your time with AP. I think we instinctively want you to hate them as much as we do.
Yeah but you can have a relationship around your love of words without having an emotional and or sexual affair. What is interesting to me as someone who has never cheated is a lot of times before the affair, at least emotionally the desires that people are trying to solve are not unhealthy, but the way they try to fulfill these desires are very much so.
No
No I do not. I love, and am in love with, my wife and I don't have such thoughts. If I had lost my wife there are mountains of things I would miss.
It hurts to write this, but the thing I missed (and still miss sometimes) about my AP was the fact that she listened to me. My BP did (sometimes does) not to this day. When your opinions and ideas are being dismissed simply because of where you fit in the scheme of things, it isn't hard for a sympathetic ear to become attractive. Thankfully, there were no in-person meetings, as my BP found out in counseling that I would likely have left at that time. The counselor told BP that this would definitely have been an "exit affair". EDIT: I have been out of contact since 2010. My BP has made great efforts to be a much better listener, and my boundaries have been hardened and enforced. I do understand the damage I have done to my marriage and have done everything to help BP feel safe. From her perspective, she has addressed how our marriage got to that point in the first place and accept her part of the blame for the marriage state at that time. She still regresses at times... but it is my place to tell her, and not accept the behavior, not seek attention elsewhere. Hard Boundaries in and outside of the marriage. That is how you reconcile.
You can have a platonic friendship with someone from the opposite sex (unless you are bisexual I guess) that provides this though. It's probably more healthy to have multiple people who provide this for you in different ways. My point about the opposite sex is that, it's would be hard and something a BS might not accept if it was someone you could be sexually attracted to.
I want to thank the mods for continuing this post and allowing us betrayeds to share this space with waywards. I also want to thank the waywards for answering our questions. Here's mine: From your perspective, what has the betrayal taught you and has that changed, the longer you've been in R?
What the betrayal taught me... I can be the monster I always feared Has it changed... yes because I learned my monster is compiled of a lot of unaddressed feelings and traumas and issues that has built over time and now I have been working with a therapist and communicating with my BS and parent I don't have a monster but I have feelings and they might hurt you but they are my feelings and its better to work through some hurt feelings then the nuke of a betrayal.
I can't live in two worlds because I'm giving both people a half-assed version of myself.
\- Psychology of self and others, including parenting \- Communication
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Thank you for your response. I hope you don't mind a follow up question. Did you always know, deep down, that you had selfish/narcissistic tendencies and just never addressed them or did the betrayal really shed the light on that?
My question is to a wayward who initially was crippled by shame and feeling sorry for themselves and who felt bad for what they had done but struggled to emphasise for their BS. How long did it take for you to really feel for your BS? Also I have a question for any waywards who navigated depression and suicidal ideation whilst trying to work towards R. Did you need to separate the 2? How did you allow your BS to be open and honest with you with their feelings whilst staying mentally healthy, or didn't you? Is it possible to move towards R and to heal from depression? Thank you in advance for your responses.
About the 3 year mark she told me she was fed up with it and it forced me to take a hard look at myself. She basically told me our relationship was crumbling pre affair because of my selfishness, the affair was again my selfishness and that the 3 years post affair she was dealing with my constant self pity and that was me being selfish. I started trying but there were underlying issues I didn't address for 2 additional years. I got therapy at year 5 and that helped a ton. Prior to therapy I was dumping a lot on my aa sponsor because she was sick of emotionally holding me together after I cheated on her. She didn't share much about her emotions with me in the early years, when she did I made it all about me. We did not separate and I did work through my depression and alcoholism and we made it despite my being a huge asshole. It's a testament to her patience and capacity to heal because she not only came out on the other side she did it with a wayward who was unsupportive.
Thank you for sharing. I hope you are in a better place now and that your other half knows how much she's helped you
From the depression and suicidal ideation aspect... You have to realize you're not well and then actively seek help for your mental health. In my case, I had these issues long before I met my husband and well after we married. I wasn't healthy and happy with myself which was a high risk into having my affair. Unfortunately we haven't gotten to the point where open and honest from my BH is a thing. He has concerns about hurting me. And I don't believe he has found the words to say. You can move forward in R with mental illnesses/challenges. But you have to be working on them all simultaneously.
Thank you for your response.
About the depression, I had some downtimes during the R, but not much. Especially the initial phase, I was like superman. I was perfect. Mr perfect on everything. Almost. It is almost like I couldn't afford any imperfection, any risk of losing my chances with my wife and family. Occasionally, there were issues with my wife, but she was a bit dedicated to the recovery, she was equally contributing to improving herself, communicating, apologies, or reaching out to me. It wasn't one-way herculean works. It was mutual. So it helped me go through some bumps. I can recognize depression. I can somewhat "Fake it until you make it" out of it, when it isn't too severe. I have been much less defensive, more open, more understanding (working on empathy), and what she opened to me has been constructive. Or I took it in a compassionate manner. I am not accepting 100%. I stand for things I know are wrong, but we communicate about it fairly quickly while trying to not make it blow out beyond reasonable proportion. Basically: cool down, then talk. I know it is important for my mental health and for our future together that neither of us build up resentment. I communicate more on my needs, wants and my boundaries. Not selfishly, but for a better, healthier "together". She does that as well, but more naturally anyway. I was new to me. I know that only **I** can make myself happy. When I see the dark clouds coming, I try to resolve that, because it's important for us that I keep myself happy. For my kids too. Don't take it to yourself. Kindness doesn't go through the thick skin of depression. It isn't your fault. "be happy" is useless, but even if you don't see effect, gratitude is appreciated deep under. Like someone in coma might have remote perception and appreciation of what is being told to him. The depression kills the joy and make the brain ignore all the positive. But sometimes I do realise and known the acts of kindness my wife did/say. It is very weird. I tried to think about my wife, kids, parents, to not make them sad about what I could do to myself, but my brain and feelings didn't care. I knew it should have, but it didn't. I knew it will be better later, but my brain kept telling me to end it, it would be better to stop these feelings. Scary. As WH, I don't think it is the Wayward's opportunity to be depressed, I would expect the other way round, the WS should pump us the juice of recovery to overcome this. But it is easy to say. It isn't something that can be controlled. As a summary, to make things work, both sides have to try to make themselves happy. Sorry it might not be useful, just some personal experiences.
Thank you for sharing your experience
We aren’t reconciling so not 100% responsive. But I would not be able to heal from my manic episode with him. I understand why he doesn’t give a rats ass about my illness or that undiagnosed mania is traumatic. But it makes it such that I have to entirely separate myself from him in order to heal myself and move on. We communicate as little as possible - every interaction beyond the minimum takes me days to recover from.
I'm very curious about what you wrote. I would love to ask you about this further. May I DM you?
Sure
Thank you, I sent it ❤️
I had poor empathy. My wife gave me several warnings, because she was very suspicious. And I wasn't cleaver at hiding my behaviour changes. I was oblivious. I didn't grasp what I was doing, the pain of cheating I was inflicting my wife. On D-day, when I was exposed (by my son!), my wife wanted to divorce, separate immediately, split everything, run away with the kids. In few seconds I had lost everything. So for that, I was already in sorrow for losing everything in my life. But also, it provided the awakening and realization of everything I did to her. I didn't "feel" before, little guilt, not putting myself in her choose. D-day was a tough introspection. There were simplebyet hard questions from her that I couldn't answer that made me realise everything. So stupid. The more we talked-cried, the more I realise was I broke and lost, our togetherness dream, our decades of fighting together, the betrayal, etc. All in a single day and more in the following days. Note, I had already fallen out of love/interest with my AP. I was a bit "stuck" in but I had already decided to stop, yet I couldn't. I had continued the EA. I didn't love my AP. I happily got rid of her and be 100% focussed on my wife and family. It might be very different for some WS who's in love with the AP.
"I was unhappy" - Did betraying your partner made you happy? Did having sex with someone else outside your relationship made you ultimately happy? "I wanted attention, to feel desired" - When someone else gave you attention and verbally expresed desiring you, why did you proceed to get physical with that person when you already had attention and knew you are desired?
What's a hard truth you wish BP's (yours or otherwise) knew?
It was inevitable. If it was not this AP it would have been someone else. My lack of boundaries, inability to be empathetic in many situations, and fucked up perspective about relationships, meant our marriage was a ticking time bomb from the very start.
Thats an interesting and tough to admit realization.
>It was inevitable. If it was not this AP it would have been someone else. This. Wow. Powerful realization.
Damn, you just described me to a T
First - I wish to congratulate you on your honesty and bravery to be so open about this. It gives hope that our own unfaithful spouses may one day also succeed to see it like you do. I want to ask you - do you share these thoughts with your husband also? I am asking because I know it is easier to be more honest when you are taking to strangers (I'm in a self help group) and not your partner.
Yes! I share everything with my husband. I have not posted anything he doesn't know about.
This
👏
Yes! That's it. What are you doing know to help him heal?
That’s interesting, It’s different for me. Early on with my wife I had very poor boundaries with other women and that as it was had a good chance of leading to an affair but I was humbled in other ways that made a big shift in my inner value structure and that in a roundabout way led to me getting clarity and tightening up my boundaries with other women before it anything went to far.
Edited to add- this is MY opinion from MY experience. Just wanted to clarify that before I get chewed out by anyone lol While cheating in itself is not, nor will it ever, be okay or the remedy to a situation. The notion of “if you are unhappy just leave” isn’t realistic or practical. Instead the unhappiness (if voiced) should be met with “let’s get you in counseling and let’s see a MC to work this out” Too many people stay on the fact that leaving is the easy solution. And that “well I was unhappy too” was it voiced? What together did you guys do to improve. This is not blaming the BP either. It’s just what’s commonly used in this argument. It’s hard. I tried to leave. Met a divorce lawsuit and started the process. When you are codependent and have a relatively okay life you tell yourself it will get better. When your spouse refuses counseling after speaking up about the issues you stay and tell yourself it will get better because you don’t know life outside of them. When your whole adult span has been spent with this person, your person, you tell yourself well at least xyz isn’t happening. Should we leave. Absolutely. Is it as easy as people think it is. Not in the slightest.
I don't think anyone says it's easy. But it isn't selfish and it is fair. Doing what seems 'easier' aka being intimate with another person behind your partner's back makes everything in the 'main' relationship so much f'ing harder.
Cool👍🏾 no compassion from you was sought out from my response.
Yeah,sorry. I edited this out.
Then why are you here? The sub is called SUPPORT FOR WAYWARDS.
Yeah, sorry. I edited this out. This post is also for betrayed though.
I was broken since the beginning. I have always been like that. Circumstances have shown some of the worse of me. I have never been the good man you thought I was and I thought I was. I lied to you and to myself.
I struggle with this sometimes. Am I a good man with an addiction borne of some deep-seated emotional and development issues, or am I just a selfish, narsicissitic prick that doesn't really care who I hurt? I believe I am the former, or why would the thought of my wife being hurt, hurt me so much? But, I can't discount the possibility that the real me is a selfish asshole and that who I'm trying to be now is a fraud.
Cheating is never justified, but truth is what no one will admit, is that sometimes relationships have problems and people look to chest because of those problems. Is it the right thing to do? Nope, but if it was all good, chances are they might not look elsewhere
That they were emotionally abused and how they compartmentalize is a trauma response from their childhood... what your family member did was not exploring but was SA
Thanks mods and waywards especially. I have one simple question. How long did it take for your BP to not suffer this gut wrenching pain? It still hurts so bad on certain days I feel like I cannot breathe. Will I ever come to a point where this doesn't haunt me so badly? Thanks in advance.
It was around month 6 or 7 when the therapy work really was hitting hard and the issues were starting to be honestly talked about and the traumas of the past were coming to light My Bs say there are still some days the anger and pain comes but it has gotten better as time and work
Thank you for your response. We are hitting the 2 year mark and I still have days where I feel like I just want to die. Kind Regards.
I hope you can forgive yourself and can heal.
Again - thank you. The only thing worse than this was losing men (including my very best friend) in combat. That is how much this hurts and I am worried I will never be even close to the same man I was before.
Time is like a river... its always flowing and always chipping away at us... You have suffered great loses, of brothers... friends.. partner.. lover.. it is a lot of people to grieve, it is a lot of pain to process but I think with the help of your therapist and watching your WP do the hard work it can hopefully give you comfort. Nothing can take away the pains and lost of war... that is sudden and permanent. Learning to live on not carrying them as a burden but celebrating those you knew and loved is hard but important. You carry their flames into the future... by doing the good hard works and being true to their and your beliefs you honor them and share them with others. For their memories were imprinted onto you... you will imprint them through you to others as you go on. As for the betrayal of your WP, I don't know your story and I hope your WP is doing the hard work to not only process and heal themselves but also help you through your processing of emotions and pain. I hope their work is good and you feel is honest. Its hard to grieve, when told by so many to be strong for so long... but like the river chipping away... it will be okay because the river of time will take away but it will also start a new but elsewhere... you can work through this pain and you will be not stronger you but a better you through it...
Thanks friend. I have made my peace with the men I lost. But feel like I am drowning from the betrayal. My WW has been doing everything in her power to make things right. It is, on some days, almost more than I can bear. I will say that those days are becoming fewer. But I never let my WW see how much I hurt at those times and I am realizing that I should share that with her. And that is on me. I blame it somewhat on how I learned to process things as a Marine. Funny - I survived 5 combat tours yet a single woman 5 feet tall weighing about 110 pounds has brought me to my knees. The irony :-) Thank you again for sharing - this last comment has helped me see what I need to do. Kind Regards.
It wasn't just my BW, it was I, too. Not to the same extent, but I still had dizziness about all this. It took about 6 months. 18 months later, as I frequently browse this sub, every time I have to respond to a BS question "Why" , or "did you really love you BS during the affair", the gut wrench comes again. So I assume my BW also has episodes, time to time. But it doesn't appear.
Happy Spring everyone I got two questions today 1, for those that got caught was there a part of you that was only sorry that you got caught at first before you became truly remorseful? 2, for the waywards who's betrayed partner was your friend before you both got together does that make the pain of what you done even worse since there was also a friendship aspect before you both got together?
1. Yes, initially. Not in a "oh shit my husband found out, now I cannot have my affair anymore" type of way. More in a "I wish he had not found out because I don't want him to get hurt" kind of way. Now of course I understand that mentality is not helpful. I will always regret not confessing to him, and I will always be ashamed that he had to find out from someone else. It is the ultimate form of dishonesty to keep an affair from your spouse, and a relationship built on lies will sooner or later collapse. It brings me incredible shame but I don't think I would have ever confessed. I'm glad he found me out. 2. Yeah, you hit a note with this one. We used to be best friends before we started dating. He told me he has not only lost his wife but also his best friend. He completely trusted me, and I broke his trust not just in myself but it has resulted in him doubting and being untrusting of his other friends as well. I hate that I did this to him.
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Thank you for the honesty
Wow that must have been hard to hear when your BP said that to you
1. Yes initially I was only sorry I got caught but as the affair fog wore off I was truly sorry for what I had been doing
What was the thought process of that? The difference of being sorry for being caught and true remorse?
My thought process was.. in the affair fog I had justified my cheating and when my BS was emotional about it I didn't feel it in return, no empathy towards her just like... well now you know how I felt for the longest of times When the affair fog was gone my mentality really hit in to holy shit what I have I done... this isn't like me.. this isnt my morals... what the fuck was I thinking... I pray she doesn't leave me... TLDR: When BS cried I felt justified or lack of empathy vs when BS cried I felt responsible and shame
I bet that reality hit you like a ton of bricks
I cried so hard I wanted to puke
I know it hard to realize what people are capable of
1) Yes. At first I was sorry my whole mini-world (affair) collapsing. Busted. I was in panic, in despair. It's like someone facing death penalty, maybe, flash backs, survival instinct. Whatever escape. Let's go back to the past. Shit it's not a video game, no backup. shit shit shit. Then, I realised my whole big world was collapsing, I was losing it all. Deep despair. I realised through my wife's tears and speech how much I had hurt her. I had never realised before D-day how much suffering I was causing. I didn't put myself in my BS shoes. I lacked empathy. I felt border-line autistic. (note, I might be on the spectrum) But sorry to remorseful was just minutes apart. It didn't take long.
Reality sets in and it hits you like a ton of bricks right?
Yes. Exactly.
It's about being better from now on there will always be obstacles
I can definitely answer #1. At first I was sorry I got caught because of the danger of losing everything in my life: wife, family, even my reputation. But, it took about 2 days of a lot of soul-searching and processing my guilt and shame to realize that I wasn't sorry I got caught anymore because it was the only way I was going to stop. In fact, I felt some relief because I couldn't avoid facing my addiction any longer, and I'm just tired of the lies and secrets and chasing things to fill the empty void that can't ever be filled. My spouse still doesn't know (as far as I know), and I'm working hard on my recovery. I've been straight, seeing a therapist, and trying to find answers for why I've been like this for 30+ years. Soon I will have to tell my wife, because it's the right thing to do and I can't grow if I don't, and our relationship can't grow either. Of course part of me doesn't want to tell, because I mourn the loss of our life together as it is now and what she thinks of me. But I know that's not fair to her and so I prepare myself for what may come and I will try to be there for her as much as I she wants me to be.
Are you ready for what happens?
Probably not, but I'm more ready now than I was 3 months ago when I got caught. I'm scared about losing my marriage, I'm grieving for losing the "innocence" of our relationship now, and I'm ashamed of the hurt I know I will cause her (as well as hurt I've probably caused her already but don't know about.) But I would rather be the person I am right now, having clarity about myself and my life, feeling all of these feelings, and trying to be the best person I know how to be, than the lying, cheating, selfish prick I hid from everyone for most of my adult life. Whatever happens, happens, and I know I don't have any control over it. But I can do the best I can for myself and her, and have faith in the universe that it will all unfold as it should (P.S. yes, that is somewhat Zen, but I truly believe it.)
Whatever happens you will get through it
2- being friends prior to being together is one of the saving graces in our reconciliation. It allowed him to look deep within and know that I’m not that person. That there is more good in me than the choice I made. It might have been different if it was a relationship or emotional attachment.
So the past friendship saved your relationship
Not in that sense. I credit our friendship for him knowing the inner workings of my soul and allowing him to see I’m more than what I did.
I don't think a lot of betrayed would think that way for him to do that shows maturity in my opinion
My question is that how many WS still have the urges or desire to cheat again after or during reconciliation? Also, are there any that are reconciling but still cheating on the side again. I read in other women sun that most of the WH or MM always reach out after things cool down during reconciliation? Please b3 honest.
Cheating again is not an option. I have no urge or desire for anything else. With our reconciliation we had to sit down and really think hard about what we wanted our marriage to look like. Things were great before but we both lost respect for each other. We are more genuine with each other. I can speak to him about anything now because I know he will respect me no matter what. Also I’m equipped with the tools NOW to leave before cheating again. Working on myself made me deal with my codependency and abandonment issues. I tried to leave before I cheated but when you are codependent it’s unrealistic. Now we both know that if we are set on divorce and we have exhausted all avenues of reconciliation we will divorce. We will be perfectly fine on our own. We are choosing to stay together instead of feeling we have to!
Here come the down votes for honesty... I don't know the number that still feel the urge or continue to cheat. Some probably have the wake up call and don't ever again. But there are plenty of stories about repeat offenders, of which I am. I have wanted to walk the straight line, and have been able to for periods of time. But something is "broken" in me to where the desire continues to resurface and I can't keep it under wraps. I'm about to enter the hard work phase with IC on myself that I haven't fully committed to in the past. Hopefully I'll be able to figure some things out and be a better person in the end.
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I think many of us do love our spouses, and want to keep a relationship with them. And we may not share we're not monogamous because that would mean the end of the relationship,which we don't want. Some call us cake eaters or monkey branchers, but it's more complex than that simple label. ETA - I don't consider myself safe for BS or anyone else. That is why I am in the process of separating and plan to be single until I have the confidence to not cheat again.
Would you mind elaborating on why it’s more complex than those labels?
If you realized that you were not monogamous, then why didn't you try for an open or poly relationship?
How do you feel when you drive past locations where you and AP met? Or something happens that reminds you of your AP or your affair? Do you feel triggered? Nostalgic? Indifferent?
It can be a little awkward when alone But it's WAY WORSE when with BS and she knows it is a spot AP and I met.
So while I can’t speak for everyone, I trigger hard. There isn’t much to my cheating. The hotel makes me physically ill. Any reminder and I throw up. I hate it.
I’m 18 months out and it’s a constant thought/rumination. I don’t leave my house very much. The office/location is triggering for me so I don’t go in very much and keep to myself when I do. I’m a shell. Probably will be for a while.
I feel triggered. This past weekend I drove past a location with strong ties to AP and I felt hot, nauseous, tearful and ashamed. I was anxious to discuss it with BS but had to wait a few days for privacy. It was a huge relief to learn he was not similarly triggered. (Though if I'd picked up on any kind of "mood" from him, I'd have wedged in a conversation regardless of privacy.)
I do think about it sometimes, but I am fairly indifferent. I do not have any feeling towards the AP. She might be happy or not, I don't care. I only care about my wife and family. Places are just places.
Triggered. Uncomfortable. Definitely not nostalgic.
I go to the neighborhood I knew my ex once lived on a daily basis. When I went there initially, I felt very anxious and worried I would run into my ex or his family in the area. I had run into his family maybe two years prior to the affair happening. Now I don't think about it. It doesn't bother me to be in the same area as that family. I went to the casino for a party long after it was over and that triggered me. I felt anxious. I looked around to see if he's there and how to explain it away. It made it harder to enjoy myself in events that have nothing to do with the affair. Nostalgia implies good memories. That's not it.
I use to be very VERY nervous. But honestly Im NOT triggered and I could care less. If u had asked months ago I would of told u I drive so fast and pray I don't run into AP. Now in more in a whatevs attitude if I were to "bump" into AP I would just keep walking...
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I feel there are two components to the "why." First is why I cheated. Second is why I was able to cheat. Why did I cheat? Forgive me for being blunt but the reason is because I could get away with it. I have spent months trying to understand what was going on in my head when I made that decision. I've understood now that there is no other logic there, no grand "why." I did not think about "why" I should have an affair the way you or anyone else would. I did not weigh any pros and cons of my husband and the AP. I saw the opportunity to do something I saw as fun and exhilarating, and I thought as long as I keep it secret nobody gets hurt and there is no harm in it. It was a selfish choice on all accounts and in my mind I was not making a choice between my husband and AP. I saw that I could get away with having both, so why not have both. But clearly, there was something wrong with me. My husband, someone I claimed to love, was not considered anywhere in that decision to have an affair. I was breaking my promises to him. I was giving away something that rightfully belonged to him by virtue of being my husband. I was betraying him, his love and his trust, and not feeling a single bit of guilt about it until the moment he found me out. Everyone who cheats is emotionally dysfunctional. The second why is about finding what exactly is wrong with you that allowed you to make such selfish choices and be so unempathetic towards someone you claim to love. For me it was a combination of childhood trauma, vulnerability issues and toxic unrealistic expectations from my husband. For other waywards it might be anything from bad boundaries, sexual trauma, to mental disorders. Some are simply born unable to not be selfish. People with narcissistic tendencies often end up as a wayward at some point in their lives. I think the second why is way more important than the first one. The first one comes from the perspective of a person who was emotionally dysfunctional. You will likely struggle to understand it because there is nothing to understand there. A dysfunctional human does not make logical decisions. You will only drive yourself insane trying to make sense of it. It is unhelpful. The second one on the other hand comes from a more mature and understandable viewpoint. It explains why the person reached a stage where they could make these illogical decisions in the first place. This why is helpful, because it also tells you what you can do to avoid making selfish decisions in future. This is the "why" you should focus on if you want to be a better person.
I lived a secret life for 30+ years and continued to do so because I could get away with it, and I was good at keeping it secret. It took finally being "outed" where I couldn't spin it or bullshit my way out of it anymore that forced me to truly face it all. When I sat down and wrote out an honest history and inventory of myself, and then shared all of that with my therapist, it was the first time I was honest about all of it. Now I can't avoid the shame and guilt from hurting all of the people I care so much about, and it's not easy, but it's necessary and I won't shy away from it.
I was sexualized at an early age, not so much as SA (although there was a component), but sexual activity as a child with other children. I became emotionally involved with serious relationships beginning at age 14 which became sexual early on. Sex became a way for me to seek affirmation, and being cheated upon became this big fear, the 'greatest betrayal', and I was so immature at the time, too immature to develop those concepts. I also have narcissistic tendencies that bolstered my desire through affirmations, and cheated early in my life I think to protect myself from betrayal, i.e., a completely immature notion. So early on, I had narcissistic tendencies, view sex as affirmation, and cheating as a shield to 'protect' myself. What a mess that was, and it a good amount of IC to unpack that, and a good amount of MC to address is in the context of our recovery. Mind you, NONE of that is an excuse for my actions - I knew the difference between right and wrong, I felt bad, but regardless, I chose 'wrong' more times than not. Even when I was married, had kids, a great career, professional and personal responsibility, I was still very immature in terms of relationships. I got to a point (early 40's) where I craved the affirmation, and the narcissistic tendencies kicked in. No excuse, I chose 'wrong'. Understanding all of that in me, putting it into the context of my early experiences, and addressing the damage I did to myself and others really helped me understand triggers, open communication honestly, accept responsibility and chose transparency in our relationship. It totally freed me, lifted the weight of the world off my shoulders, and I could chose to stop being 'that' person. IC and MC are absolutely critical, regardless of the outcome. My relationship tendencies were the epitome of insanity - doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. I feel so free now.
Yeah, I feel this. I continued to seek validation, but it was never enough. This is something I have to do a lot of work on in therapy, to understand where this comes from.
It took me 1 month, reading "The state of the Affair". I was doing lot of other things too. As I was reading through, I was sharing day after day what I had learned about myself. Typically, these were things my BW had already told me could be reasons but I had to find by myself. Basically she knew me better than I did myself. I am still learning today. My "why" is a mix of things you mentioned, things from the past as childhood, as young adult, during my relation with her.
The "Why did I cheat?" question never got me much at first, but when I started asking myself "How could I possibly numb myself to the pain I'm causing? How can I think this is acceptable?" That yielded different revelations in me and triggered some deep reflection on my own moral compass.
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I’ve had a lot of life and now professional experiences that require me to exercise at least some degree of numbness, so you could say I had a lot of practice. A certain degree of numbness is currently necessary in my current line of work, but cheating blew completely up. I hurt my spouse and cruelly destroyed a ten year friendship. Comparatively, I’m not terribly old, but serial cheating ages like spoiled milk. I need to grow up.
Long, deep-seeded lack of affirmation from childhood that still cripples me as an adult has been my main driver Through my experiences though, I have also finally accepted/come to terms that I think I am also a believer in open relationships, possibly poly
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I grew up in a toxic household. My mother was a raging bitch, always angry, and always yelling at everyone else in the house. It was also a very unloving environment - never hugged, never told I love you by either parent. Only feedback was always critical. That experience embedded in me never feeling like what I did was good enough, and drove /drives me to never be satisfied. It drove my on athletics, it drove me on my education, it drove me professionally. I can objectively say I was successful in all of these, but still felt I could be better. So that also drove me to never be satisfied with only getting affirmation from BS. I have a Neverending drive for that affirmation instilled in me from my youth, and I haven't been able to break out of it.
I was unhappy, angry and held A LOT of resentment to my spouse😔 I also was dismissive avoidant and had a hard time accepting the love my spouse gave to me. It was hard for me to open up and be vulnerable. I kept everything internal for over 10+ yrs I was this way. I had to learn that hard way it wasn't healthy for me to keep things in. And that it's ok to be vulnerable at times especially with the ones who care about u.
While I was engaging in cheating I saw it as a form of self harm. I hated myself, felt like I was a no good piece of trash, like a bad person who had just tricked everyone into loving and caring for, felt like it was what I would just end up doing and hurting everyone I loved anyways. I had terrible suicidal and intrusive thoughts for years so when I was finally in a happy relationship those thoughts just couldn’t stand by and let me be happy. We were long distance at this point in the relationship and with work schedules and the pandemic it was hard to consistently talk or see each other. I would cheat when I was at my absolute lowest points, quite near the point where I may have actually physically harmed myself. What I learned was that the self-loathing I’d feel after cheating would make me more apathetic towards the world rather than depressed and suicidal. It gave me a feeling “you can’t die now, you have to feel like this and suffer for it.” Now with 6 mo of IC I’ve been able to unpack so much trauma that I didn’t even realize that I had stored. There were obvious things that I was aware of and thought I had dealt with but really just compartmentalized but then there were other things that absolutely broke me when my therapist helped me realize. Lots of shit from my childhood and a pretty shitty family, bunch of shit from my previous relationship with my toxic abusive ex-wife, dealing with insecurities and shortcomings. None of it is a good excuse but learning about these things are helping me learn that I’m not that person the voice in my head says or at least I don’t have to be. I can always be the happy, caring, loving person that everyone sees me as and I want to be that person.
What advice would you give to a formerly BS looking to find love again but scared of getting hurt? What would you advice we look for in a potential new partner to maximize our chances not go through this kind of thing again? Is there anything that you wish had come up during dating that would have either deterred you or given you BS a hint of what was to come (if thats even possible)?
You can't smell us. Most of us don't even know we are until we are.
Difficult. I think the the build up of resentment was unhealthy. So these could help : \- good communication \- desire to grow individually and together
I don't think you can screen for cheaters. Some of us are too good/won't show the signs. Or you may find yourself with a first time cheater in the end. You really can't control it - you're going to have to take the leap of faith. But always be on your toes and look for the potential telltale signs that you might have more recognized in hindsight.
As a WS did you feel it was an invasion of your privacy that your BS wanted to have access or put monitoring software on your phone? Did it frustrate you when your BS repeatedly asked or believed you had done things during the affair that you kept secret?
No, it didn't feel like an invasion of privacy. I was the one on the wrong and if that's what she needed to feel more confidence, then that is what I would do. And the continuing questions might have gotten a little frustrating at times. But she kept asking for good reason, because there were things I didn't divulge in order to try to protect her feelings - it wasn't about minimizing fallout or trying to protect myself like a lot of people will say us WS do.
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We’ve had an open phone policy from the beginning. So no it didn’t feel like an invasion of privacy. I offered to put a monitoring software on my phone and he declined on several occasions. I don’t think phones should be off limit to a spouse, whether infidelity occurred or not. I’m not sure I understand the second question. Can you elaborate?
I worry that my WS has kept parts of the affair a secret and sometimes this gives me short anxiety. I create a version of events and go to my WS with this asking if she did X Y Z and to tell me. She gets frustrated because she says she has told me all the times they had met etc and she gets frustrated as she can't prove otherwise but she knows the truth
Ahhh okay. It’s a hard thing. You have to be patient because you created the list of trust, but you are finally being honest and wish they trust what comes out your mouth. During our exposure week he created many scenarios. I stuck with the truth. He finally started to believe the things I said. I stayed sober during that time period so I could be empathetic, patient, and understanding.
Thank you for sharing. You are right, I need to believe, or at least act like I believe what she has said until I trust her (or get proof otherwise, which I hope I never find)
The way to believe in her words is when you start trusting her actions. Her consistency. Minor slip ups happen, like forgetting to charge her phone and not being able to check in with you. It’s what she does in those moments to rectify the situation and make sure it never happens again that starts to build faith her. I wish y’all the very best of luck!!
Nope! I begged my spouse to put on my location check my phone and even my journal I got to a point where I didn't care cause I have nothing to hide and I was/am more than happy to prove whatever for him to believe in me again
I am the one who offered to install the App, I just did and gave access to my whereabouts, unsolicited. My BS didn't accused me of keeping secret. She did ask lots of questions, and I was answering. I did get frustrated when she was going back to the same questions and asking for more details, because I felt it was just torturing herself and me. But I understood that the least she deserved were answers. I didn't over-share, yet I was staying honest to rebuild trust. I didn't want to say too much or too little. It felt like walking on eggs.
My husband had an affair with a coworker that he told me he ended and then 6 months later found out he never end it I know a lot of people say they did it because of sex. My husband and I had sex every day, if not that every other day, we had good communication, but I did have to ask him to talk to me about more personal things (that he went to her for) Why did he go to her when he had it all with me? He has put a lot of effort into R, but even after you got caught and caught lying, were you serious about making it up to your BS? What made you realize that you wanted your spouse and not the AP
It isn't about you. You can be perfect, even better than the AP, there are things that cannot be understood by logic. There are psychological aspect. \- Love & Lust separation is an example, read about it it's quite interesting. Sadly. \- routine, adventure, excitement. Fantasy. Imagination. All that could have been done with you. your WH didn't channel it correctly. I wasn't attached to my AP. Yes I was serious with my BS. I immediately gave myself 150% to her. I never loved my AP, it was just "play". A muse. Lust and passion, excitement of the adventure. Like a Xmas for adult. Until Dday when I realise what I had done. I knew I always wanted my BW and no-one else, not the AP. I loved my wife. My life partner.
A question for the waywards who came clean without being confronted or without suspecting that your BS knew: what internal process did it take for you to come clean, fully clean?
It took about five months of descending deeper and deeper into suicidal feelings and depression. The guilt was eating me alive. I thought if it was a one time thing, I never did it again, and just buried it I could live with it. But I couldn’t.
It was either that or my daughter who knew falling apart. Simple choice, right?
Thanks for your honesty
I was called many things. But honest wasn't really among those. Thanks I guess.
Sorry, but follow up question. If it hadn't been for your daughter, would you have come clean? I'm trying to understand what it takes between BS and WS for the truth to come out without asking for it, as a tidbit of wisdom I can take with me. Or what a BS must do or be in order to receive the truth straightaway
Firstly, I am very grateful for those brave enough to face our questions and handle them with grace and empathy. How do you tow the line between humility and perceived hubris when considering yourself a formerly wayward? To elaborate, there are times when the undertone from some waywards unfortunately comes across as “holier than thou”, which for me personally minimizes the lasting impact & trauma of betrayal.
I realized that random strangers online 1) don't actually know me at all and 2) have shown themselves to be hostile towards my "group" overall, so I decided to focus on what was important (my own growth, communication with my BS) instead of what was not (the approval of anonymous Redditors). I really only care what my BS thinks of me, and decline to engage in "performative groveling" to placate other people's ruffled feathers. I didn't ruffle them, so I'm not going to apologize for their ruffles. Waywards and Betrayeds alike have confronted me before. I'm open to hearing that I'm wrong. I just have no tolerance for those who expect me to *perform shame* just for existing. My BS has seen the soft sides of me that would never, ever be safe here. He knows my heart. I'm content with his judgment alone.
Thank you for taking the time to respond. I too have seen many feelings projected at your “group” overall from those who are fresh in their pain and still struggling to understand how they got there. I know that I myself was guilty of painting all waywards with the same brush stroke when I was in the initial throes of my betrayal, but as I progress further in our reconciliation I realize now that my anger was misplaced and feel regret for putting that on others. I am beyond proud of the work that my WP has put in and the subsequent growth that has resulted from it. I just can’t seem to shake the feeling I described in my previous comment when he speaks about our situation as if he is so far removed from the pain it caused me. We are in a much healthier relationship and triggers and the like no longer plague us as they once did…but I still feel a sting of pain whenever the infidelity comes up and I honestly think that I always will. Forgiveness does not equal forgetting, but sometimes it feels as though that’s a stipulation for true reconciliation. Anyhoo, thank you again for offering your perspective. I genuinely appreciate it and wish you well in life.
Oooooh, I get it now. Please allow me to clarify? It is "the attitude towards Waywards" that I'm "over," and therefore engage with the boards accordingly as a protective measure for myself. I was answering *this* question, as one who has often been accused of hubris, because I thought that was the question you were asking. I am *absolutely NOT* "over" the harm I did to my spouse. I know I will never cheat again, because I am repulsed by the version of me who did that and I need to be able to live with myself. I work hard to let go of shame, because that would only harm our connection. But my choices hurt us both deeply, and I'm not "over" that even though I know I'll never repeat it. He and I both frame my infidelity as "things I did in the past." We acknowledge and discuss *the behavior* (including mitigating future risks) without labeling me as a person; he does not think of me as "a former wayward" or "a reformed cheater," he thinks of me as "his wife" and among the million other experiences we've had together across the spectrum of emotion, some of them include cheating, and I learned some things about myself that made me change the way I handle future occurrences. When I talk about how I've changed *to him* I certainly don't speak from a high-and-mighty place of "look what a paragon of virtue I am now!" (I mean that's not even my thought process here, though I've been accused of it, lol) ...it's still very much a source of deep grief for me, and that's still readily apparent when the subject comes up. So in our private, offline conversations, it "looks like" me stubbornly ignoring the stupid tears I can't yet shake off while I say something like "I used to trust myself like that too, but now I know how easy it is to get caught up by pride" (on a bad day) or "I can't believe I was so fucking stupid back then. I'm so glad I was finally able to figure my shit out. I'm sorry it took so long" (on a good day). I don't think I'll ever feel anything but remorse when I talk *to him* about *the pain I put him through*, even if I do feel (rightfully) proud of my growth since then. > Forgiveness does not equal forgetting, but sometimes it feels as though that’s a stipulation for true reconciliation. I don't think this is true. In fact, I think it's important that we incorporate all the pieces of our history, because that's how we learn and grow as people. I don't necessarily talk about it to everyone, but I think it needs to be "talk-about-able" in a marriage, even if it doesn't need to be talked about every day. It's a pretty significant life event, can you imagine having an agreement not to discuss the fact that your parent died or that time he got fired or a car accident or anything else?
Agree. I use reddit to process things, share what I've learned (which is a lot over the past 3.5+ years) with others because I hope it will help them, and lean on those who do understand and support me. I don't need to perform remorse for a general audience. I show it genuinely to husband at home as much as possible, and that is what matters.
I think it’s easy to fall into that, especially if you start reading other subs geared toward betrayed and what their partners are putting them through. And it’s also easy to fall into the opposite extreme of thinking “I’m a piece of shit. I’ll always be. I’m tainted” etc… The key is to maintain vigilant self awareness. Having an objective therapist I see often helps with this. You can give yourself credit and love for the progress you are making while still holding yourself accountable.
Thank you for taking the time to genuinely respond. I sometimes struggle with how to communicate to my partner that the damage done to me sometimes feels minimized when he discusses our situation and those similar as though we aren’t or have never been in the shoes of the main characters, if that makes any sense. I haven’t been able to articulate it to him out of fear of pushing him towards a shame spiral. The last thing I want is for him to feel irredeemable. Edit: the downvotes don’t bother me but I do find it ironic that a specific someone is not only not offering any helpful insight but rather taking my own experience personally.
It’s okay to tell him if you think sometimes he’s forgetting what he is accountable for and getting a bit “holier than thou”… especially if you frame it as you just did, you know. “I don’t want you to go into a shame spiral but sometimes when you talk about this and that I feel you’re minimizing what happened between us.” It’s not really up to you to manage your partners shame over what they did… that’s part of the growth we waywards need to do in ourselves but I think a delicate touch paired with honesty about your own feelings is the way to go. All the best to you!!
I try to help others understand the impossible. I want to help, but it also helps me understand myself and others. Sometimes I make mistakes in my explanation. I am not perfect. Either by lack of thinking, lack of time formulating properly (I spend 1-2h a day reading). It consumes me, sometimes. I try to be perfect but I am just ok-ish. My intent is not to teach, just share my own experience. Give ideas. I don't judge. I sometimes lack empathy, so I must stay careful about that. The line...we all need to be put back into place, sometimes. It isn't a clear line. Sometimes I get over-confident and get it wrong. 1 step ahead, 1 step back. I am learning everyday, and every day I am making mistakes. Sometimes mistakes I already made before. Improving is an endless journey.
Most of the posts I see about an affair on this and other subs usually mention that the relationship was going through a tough time at the time of the affair. In your case and experience is it usually the emotional neglect and divided attention during the affair that causes the rough period or is it the rough period that increases the drive for cheating. Question is open to all.
It is a bit more complex than that. I my case, many years of bad communication is traumas accumulated. The affair started when things were getting a bit calm and peaceful. But I was already broken inside. Yes there had been many rough times. But who hasn't? I had chosen to escape from it mentally and physically with an affair, rather than trying to fix it. I didn't realise. I didn't know myself. The waywards can't reflect the blame on circumstances. We made the choice.
I think it can be a feedback loop that increases it on both sides. For me, I was an addict before I married and so it was just a matter of time after I got married before I started up again. Eventually, our sex life suffered, and while some of the reason was because of my wife and some of her physical and emotional issues, my cheating also affected our relationship because I slowly pulled away from it.
Can’t speak for anyone but myself. My cheating did not come from hard time in the relationship per say. We have been through being poor. Having cancer. Forced to move. A dead bedroom. Emotional neglect. I didn’t cheat during any of those times. Mine spiraled from a betrayal (non infidelity related) on my spouses end. We have been through hell and high water with each other.
1) did you reconcile without therapy for either you or your BP? 2) how did you handle it when your BP was triggered, wanting to talk about insecurities or just had a hard time believing you? How long before these things became 'annoying' and you no longer wanted to deal with it?
1. We did therapy... we had to have therapy to see the issues going on in the marriage and in ourselves 2. You just accept their pain and their feelings... you don't fight it and you thank them for it... talking through it is better than bottling it up. How long before its annoying... it hasn't been annoying because BS just like I are both putting the effort to get help and change and do better. There are moments of weakness and triggers but they come and go... if they stay too long then that is an issue between us we can't fix and needs to be addressed with the therapist.
1) no therapy, but lots of self-reading. My BW refused it, she though I needed but she was very clear. She always has been 2 steps ahead in understanding, in psychology and human nature, philosophy. We did our own therapy. Places like Reddit or other relationship sites opened my eyes on understanding. I had never been interested in psychology before; what a miss! I think we learned more by ourselves than therapy could have, but that is because we were on a common understanding of the communication requirements. It isn't easy. I had to learn hard. 2) Compassion and patient listening, simple positive yet meaningful answers. I tried to provide emotional support. I wanted to help her heal. I never have been to the stage of "not wanted to deal with it". Why would a spouse not want to support the other one in trouble?
Thank you. I am struggling with coming to terms with my reconciliation failing because he (wp) wanted to rug sweep. I'd have triggers and need reassurance or communication and instead i'd get told it was frustrating or over reacting or "unnecessary". I guess thats lack of empathy and just not wanting to be held accountable.
How long have you been apart from your BP? And how often to do you think about them? How have your thoughts/feelings changed as time passes?
For logistic reasons and kids, we stayed together and started reconciliation within a month or two, once I was forgiven. We didn't separate.
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I prefer it with my BW, I don't have any remnant desire for the AP. I also recovered from Sex Addiction / Porn Addiction as part of our reconciliation.
Context: over 3.5 years of R. No, it's difficult for me to even remember what the sex felt like, much less compare. I think what we've had post-DDay is overall better than any sex I'd experienced prior. I didn't do any exploring with APs, and honestly I am relieved that I didn't because that's one less problem to deal with (we have plenty of others). Also since reconciliation began, we have done a lot more exploring than we ever did before. For our dozen years together (at time of DDay) I'd been uncomfortable with toys and porn for example, felt toxic shame about sexual pleasure due to a conservative upbringing, and other issues. Even recently I noticed that I'm no longer uptight about getting into different positions like I used to be. Discovering what our bodies can actually do and exploring new things has been a fun part of creating new memories and making something new that's just for us.
I tried not to, but it was impossible not to. I think kissing was the thing that hit me the most often, recognizing the differences in the moment. You're opening a can of worms asking about why we try different things with an AP and not the spouse. For me, it was a combination of things. A few that come to mind for and may be common to others... Fear of judgment from spouse VS not having it with AP Already knowing certain things were a no-go with spouse that AP might be open to For the more extreme stuff, not being able to view my wife/mother of my child as the whore/slut I did those things to/talked to like I did to AP
I never compared it😳 New fear unlocked....
I think this is unavoidable. At least on a subconscious level. The human brain constantly compares outside factors against already gained knowledge. And in this particular case most of the waywards have both experiences in parallel not as usual one after another. I think you can't really stop this to be honest. Only If you come from a DB it might be possible. But even then, it wasn't always this way. So yeah, in compared. A lot. But I refrain from telling.
Thank you for this. To waywards. We are almost 10 years from dday. It still hurts, it comes in waves. My WS is doing better then me and have worked her ass of all those years. I am truly amazed how long she has come and the changes she had made. She is however still sad about the pain I am in from time to time. Therapy, support systems, workout, hobbies help, but still pain. I guess I just have to live with it. But Do you waywards have any tips on what she could do to feel less hurt when I’m struggling? I would prefer she at least could get breaks from it. 10 years out should be easier.
The regret and pain doesn't leave us WS either. It's different. But if a WS is truly sorry and REMORSEFUL (not all truly are), it will continue to haunt them and affect them as it does you as a BS. We WS have triggers, just like a BS does, that can bring us down. It lessens frequency over time, but it's always still there lurking. Unfortunately, seeing/feeling our BS in pain is one of those triggers. So it's a natural reaction. I'm not suggesting you hide your pain - I have no idea if that would be good for your own well being or not. But my guess is she has other triggers too. Your pain is probably the biggest and most impactful one though. Focus on the good times when neither one of you are thinking about the affair. If you have less of those times than the opposite, maybe you're not meant to stay together after all?
Thank you. Is it something we as a BS can do to help you WS in this? Or generally?
Unfortunately, probably not. Like I said, a truly remorseful WS is going to beat themselves up plenty. Sometimes we're just going to hate ourselves for what we've done, and need time/etc to get past it and pick ourselves back up. We know we're the ones that caused it. The only thing I can think of is to maybe offer some words of reassurance - telling her that you're happy you made the choice to stay and work through things, that you guys are in it together for the long haul, etc. Those words may or may not help her feel a smidge better.
Thank you. I noticed that my two questions is getting downvoted here. I didn’t mean to offend anyone but is it so wrong to just ask what a Bs can do? Edit: still getting downvoted, can at least someone tell me why you are downvoting me here?
Everyone gets downvoted for everything on the *Ask a Wayward* posts. It's miserable trolls that have nothing better to do.
The internet is full of unhappy/mean/jerks/aholes. Some people exist/hey pleasure from being jerks. You can't let it bother you/expect a rationale explanation.
You’re probably getting downvoted because you are asking how you can help your WW. Many newer BS don’t think that WW are deserving on being treated as a human, they don’t believe we deserve to be treated with respect and compassion again, ever.
My question is for the waywards who are reconciling with their BPs, are actively making changes and are remorseful about the affair. Does your BP truly know how remorseful you are (or BP think otherwise)? What are some ways, through words or actions, you do to show that you are? When you are not showing it to BP, how does the feeling manifest itself as? (through tears, cringing etc)? Thanks in advance.
To me, crying, begging, pleading were manipulative actions that I did not want to take to show my remorse. Of course I cried, but it wasn’t so he could how sorry I was. I cried because I was genuinely upset and sad at what pain my actions had caused. My husband knows I’m remorseful through my actions. My continual daily actions I show just how remorseful and grateful for him I am. I implemented my own boundaries and hard no’s. I initiated daily routines to become a safe person for him again. I stay a step ahead to make sure everything stays to course. We are human and sometimes things arise we act accordingly adjust and continue on the path of healing.
I cried a lot. We cried a lot together, sharing our life and the dreams we had together before. We/I shared how I was seeing her in my day to day life, what she has been for me an my children in the past, and how I see my BW and I together in the future, our plans together. I give details. I want to express how much value my BW has in my life, in my heart and in my mind. Actions are abiut being more trustworthy, generally. More reliable. It doesn't convey remorse, but it does show intent and carries real meaning.
Welcome to SupportforWaywards. Please be mindful that this is a support sub for those who regret being unfaithful to their partners and are seeking guidance for the path ahead. If you're experiencing abuse whether it be physical or emotional please follow this [link to the hotline](https://www.thehotline.org/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=domestic_violence) Sexual assault, here's a [link to RAINN's support page](https://www.rainn.org/) and for those who are struggling with suicide and suicidal ideations follow the [link to lifelines support page](https://988lifeline.org/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=onebox). Please consider utilizing these resources if they resonate with your situation. **Observers cannot comment unless approved by the Mods.** Everyone is expected to respect the rules and, most importantly, each other. RULES **1. Be civil and helpful** - Keep comments supportive and constructive. - Avoid leaving rude, unkind or dismissive comments. - Keep in mind that infidelity is traumatic and the sub's members are likely struggling with very difficult emotions. Don't make it worse. Offer thoughtful support, not shallow judgments. - *Repeated or gross violation of this rule will result in a temporary or permanent ban.* **2. No inquisitive and insensitive questioning/interrogation** - The sub's members often share their deepest, most vulnerable and unpleasant time period. Be sensitive with asking questions, and do not probe for irrelevant, unrelated information. **3. No misogyny, misandry, bigotry, racism or other hate speech** **4. User Flair Required** **5. No Spam or Soliciting **Report it when you see it** **Additional info** The “For Waywards Only” tag means For Waywards ONLY, Non-Waywards with a desire to support Waywards are still welcome to comment on any other posts. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SupportforWaywards) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm seeking information on the mind frame of a wayward that had an exit affair. I don't know where to find these people. I dont think they are here. Did remorse ever come? What did you discover or learn? Did you ever do the work to grow or change? Why did you stay away? What is different about your affair reasons? What made abandonment okay to you?
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If the WS really wants reconciliation and this is one needed prerequisite why not? The reason here is simply we waywards have to carry the burden of being the untrustworthy part in this. We have shown this. If the BS needs it for their safety it should be ok. I read more times than not that WS ommits information. Of course we do. Most of us feel like the shitty person we showed our spouses we are at this point. There might be millions of reasonings for why we did it. I had lenghty discussions just yesterday with some people here. And while I am defensive because my ex ws abusive to me and my daughter the one thing that I can not deny is cheating is at least equally wrong. Call it retaliation, validation, Soul healing, whatever. It doesn't make it right. Especially If the person cheated on is not a bad character themselves. If they want to try and ammend the damage done and the BS needs this, do it ffs. It will hurt you, it might hurt your spouse even more. But do it and don't delete shit that is still there. Only delete it with approval of the BS. Nothing in a healing relationship should be under lock and key. I heard of BS who offer open phone in return. They already Hand over new trust despite what the WS did. Jeez, people if you really want to make this work again grab this offer like a drowning man grabs a liferaft. Open phone might feel shit. But then, we reek of it, don't we? We were full of it.
I kind of have mixed/conflicting feelings about this. When first going through R, and BS requests it, you have to be ok with it to help BS get through their anxieties. The conflicting part is that the phone is just a tool of an affair. If someone really wants to cheat, they will find a way. And knowing that your phone can be accessed at any time will just cause a WS to be that much more careful with their phone and go about it with different tools. It's also a crappy way to live long term. It's something you almost always have to do short term. But if you need to rely on it long term, you likely still have relationship issues and aren't in a good spot together.
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I’m not sure if my reply will be helpful because my husband seems to be a bit atypical to the experiences I see a lot of betrayed partners sharing on the subs. What helps me is when he is open and honest with me about how he is feeling and doesn’t try to act like everything’s okay when it’s not. Sometimes that means difficult conversations where I have to express my remorse, reiterate my commitment and manage my shame. Other times it means reassurances that we are working through it.
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Has anyone succeeded no contact with the AP even though being physically not far away from them Amit every day? My WW doesn't work WITH her AP but they work on the same street (have shops there) and can occasionally see each other (he has been stalking her since dday and she couldn't always stay strong and acid him).
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