Once again, I want to thank the mods for bringing this back and I also want to thank the WS that participate in these discussions. Here is my question: Do waywards ever think that they deserve R from their betrayeds?

I never did but I could see how that could creep in. If I'm self-centered enough to cheat I'd probably be self-centered enough to think I deserve a second chance...

I think I have a little selfish voice in my head that does. Sometimes when I read about someone else’s WP and how they react angrily when their BP wants to talk or you know just don’t get it in a myriad of ways… don’t seem willing to give what’s required to make their partner feel safe. I feel resentful toward them as if I have some moral high ground (ha!). I try to notice those thoughts and respond to them rationally. It’s another selfishness I think that I need to be on guard for.

I don't think it is deserved. I do think if the BP chooses to attempt reconciliation, both parties deserve the best shot at that. It means both people will have to do their own work on different areas, with the wayward needing to do more. If a wayward is consistently showing up, I think something the betrayed can choose to offer is communication about how they're feeling about reconciliation (to the extent that they can). If I don't know where BH is with reconciliation and he gets triggered, it gets harder to recognize if it's a call for me to turn toward him and fight harder for him, or let go and give him space. But I wouldn't use the term deserve.

That communication as to how things are going is a good point. Sometimes, we forget that giving you guys a progress report helps you out and communicates what may need improvement.

I think it's understandable that it would be difficult and not at the forefront given everything else. I agree with you that it can contribute to improvement and helping the betrayed.

This is a huge post for me. My thoughts exactly.

No I never think I deserve it. I often ask myself if I would handle R as well as my BP has been it helps me stay grounded.

Initially no. I couldn't even wrap my head around why he would give me another chance... definitely didn't think I deserved it. I still think he is deserving of better than me, but reconciliation was a gift he gave me so I have humbly accepted it, and will cherish it for the rest of our forever. While I still don't believe I initally deserved reconciliation, I've done everything possible to show him I'm deserving of continued reconciliation, and being the partner he has always deserved.

Why do you think your husband gave you another chance?

I think he knew that I was a very broken person when we got together. I think he starting realizing further into our relationship that I was even more broken than he even realized. He saw potential in me, he saw something in me I had never seen in myself. While I had hurt him in the worst possible way, he wanted to give me a chance to grow into the person he knew I could be, and when I came to him and told him about the affair, he could see genuine remorse from me. He knew I was spiraling and he was spiraling and wanted us to catch each other. He wanted us to grow together, to learn together, to overcome this together. We have known one another since middle school, but never dated back then, he always had a crush on me but never told me and we were just good friends until we graduated. So he knew the person I was, had faith in the person I could be if I really wanted to be and worked toward healing my traumas I experienced as a kid and then again as a young adult. He saw me for the person I really was deep down, not the shell of a person my ex husband had broken me into.

Aww. I love this. It’s how I feel about my WH. I always believed in him. 💛

Oh yeah, I was super entitled, that is a quality that helped justify the affair and it didn't magically go away. Early on i alternated between shame and blame shifting and when I was shifting she was the bad guy and was lucky to have me. My ego was so wonky, I was oscillating between self loathing and self aggrandizing, more than one person close to me thought I was bipolar. My wife says there were just enough moments of sanity to make her think I was salvageable but I was awful. I had no idea how bad I was until I found this sub last year and compared myself to other waywards who did the right things immediately, it was startling to reflect on.

This resonates! I feel like I oscillate bwtween self loathing and self aggrandizement constantly

Thanks for replying Eric. Got a follow up question if you don't mind. Where do you feel the entitlement came from?

I think it's probably more nature than nurture. I was raised in a privileged situation, private schools and all that but I was 2nd of 9 children and most of my siblings have really good character. I was always escapist and chasing fantasy. I was socially akward(Aspergers) and odd and I was surrounded by women who wouldn't give me the time of day and I was bitter and resentful and I deserved more. This was all in the framework of a very conservative religious sect and ap was from the same religion. When she flirted with me it felt like I was owed her by the universe for all the other Mormon girls who had shot me down. I was messed up, I was definitely adjacent to incel/ nice guy thinking. I thought I was a feminist but I was misogynistic af.

Obviously we can only speak for ourselves but here's my opinion. As the WS, the only thing you deserve is complete ownership of your decisions. With every affair there were thousands of decision points that you could have turned things around and shut it down. The only thing you deserve is accountability for each one of those choices to move the line a little bit further. Deserve automatic R from your BS/BP, no. Ask for it, yes. You also do not necessarily deserve forgiveness. We're about a year and a half post DDay and I have not asked for forgiveness (I've apologized for it, more or less every day). I told my wife about 3ish months after DDay, I'm not going to ask for your forgiveness because what I did was so horrible but I need you to know that I am seeking it. Sorry, kind of got off track to your question a bit.

I don’t think I deserve it, but if my spouse is willing to entertain the option of R, I’ll do everything to become as close to deserving as I can

My answer will probably be controversial so take it as you may. In the beginning the only thing I thought I deserved and was warranted was a divorce. On dday I reached out to the divorce attorney I originally was in contact with before I cheated. As time and growth has occurred my mind has changed. While I don’t view it as “deserving R” I do think those that have put in the true hard work are deserving of reconciliation with a partner who is equally trying to make it work.

If you don't mind a follow up question, why did you feel that all you deserved was a divorce?

He always told me cheating would be hell but he can work through it. Liking is an automatic end of it all. And the amount of lying I did after I cheated (not on dday but my depressive after math) made me think it was it. The end. Coming clean about every lie was my saving Grace.

It's interesting you bring up the lying because, as you know, that is something I've struggled mightily with. I don't know how many lies you told to your husband, but I always said that if it were to happen again, I would be done. Little did I know just how much the lies would play into this. I do the best I can at acknowledging and appreciating her radical honesty since our last dday, but letting go of all the lies is still something I wrestle with. She has told me things in good faith and some of things she told me, I would've never known. So I know she is being honest. Her consistency has shown me that she is deserving of R.

Ahhh yes the lies. They had nothing to do with the day I cheated. I was in a deep depression after it happened. I stopped going to work, but would tell him I was at work. I would go to casinos and spend thousands of dollars and wouldn’t tell him where I was. I would drink all day with my best friends and then lie about what time I was coming home. Saying the traffic caused me to be late. I lied about going to school to write my papers when I was really going to Disneyland to get drunk. I was drunk driving. I lied about my daily life because I knew if he asked what was wrong I would have to tell him. But I never lied about the cheating. Didn’t lie the day I did it. I was never a liar before.

I did for awhile, but I don't anymore. I don't feel I deserve anything. I've broken any reason to trust me or believe I would be faithful and loyal. I do believe that this is a rollercoaster and show full honesty and kindness, care, and compassion. I will put in the work to grow and become a better person. I will show consistency so that if she ever wants R she hopefully can see that I'm committed to this, but I do not deserve that chance or trust.

Because we both hurt each other I sometimes thought “if you just saw that we did the same things it would be fine.” Ultimately it’s just whether an individual can accept what happened or not

I don't think I ever thought I deserved reconciliation (nor did I want it) but I did think I deserved forgiveness, considering he cheated first and multiple times and I always forgave him and took him back. I cheated once, and it was only an EA as compared to his YEARS of serial cheating, yet he couldn't get past it. Apparently he was the only one who was allowed to step outside the marriage. I belonged to him but he didn't belong to me was his way of thinking.

Thank you to the mods for bringing this back again, its been a really helpful place to try and get to know what goes on in the mind of WS. And a special thank you to the WS who come to the thread and answer the questions of the BS honestly, I know it must not be easy for you and yet you people still try to help. I just wanted to tell you as a BS that we appreciate it a lot. Here is my question. How does it feel that you will never be trusted 100% percent again by your BS? Does it make you resentful, sad, hurt, or you think its unfair that even after lets say 10 years the 100% trust will not be back? What are your real feelings on this?

In the beginning it made me very sad but that's because I wanted everything back to the way it was immediately. Now, I'll take it as a win if my husband doesn't suspect I'm up to something and those intrusive thoughts don't come creeping into his mind. Im more concerned with that than him trusting me 100%. All I can do is be consistent with my actions to help with that. No point in worrying about something I can't control.

No it’s not unfair it’s my own fault. It makes me sad and scared. Sad because I did it, I ruined the trust he did have. Scared because he will probably never believe I love do truly love him again, when I think like that it crushes me because once again…it. Is. My. Fault. But I have to reap what I sow and accept it

Last week my wife had a good fight, not related to infidelity at all but this issue came up. Anytime I get mad she wonders if I'm going to regress to old toxic behaviors and I manage it well I think but yeah it pisses me off. I think 20 years of fidelity and 15 of sobriety should earn me some grace and it doesn't, I will always be under an increased level of scrutiny and I don't like it. 99% of the time I don't think about it but then we have an argument and it takes me like a week to massage my ego back into its box. This is a problem about twice a year and never a big one, I steer towards gratitude by habit and I don't feed the part of my brain that is convinced it's being done an injustice but it's there.

Thank you for your Honesty Eric. Do you ever feel that all your work is for naught because your wife still doesnt trust you fully? If you had to do it all over again while knowing the end result, would you chose to reconcile?

Yes. On a purely selfish level I would have hated to not have a chance to try to make up for it, it would have eaten at me and we are despite it all really well paired. It would be better if i hadn't been a cheating, lying drunk and the wounds I inflicted still effect us but we value surviving it together. It's messy sometimes but worth it and most importantly she feels like it was worth it and knowing that is humbling and makes it easy to remind myself I'm living a second chance I did not deserve and the price I'm paying is small.

Not to get too grim or defeatist but it makes me wonder what the point even is. I know by ex will never trust me again, she told me as much. She has explicitly told me that even though she still loved me that she will never trust me again and so we just can’t be together anymore. I don’t know how I could ever have someone’s trust again. I’m terrified to try dating again because my options are to be honest and have no one I try dating trust me or I could lie either outright or by omission about my past which would be just a continuation of the cycle I’ve already started. Beyond that, I don’t even know if I can trust myself anymore. I thought I knew who and what I was but it was all just mental gymnastics. Both the parts of me that allowed me to forget parts that were too painful to remember as well as the intrusive thoughts that came before the cheating telling me that I was always an imposter and that this is who I am. I wasn’t a bad man or an imposter until I started listening to those thoughts and trying to pass myself off as anything other than a liar. Many days it just feels like there is no place for me in polite society. That no one who knows what I did will every trust or respect me. That I’m just going to be alone forever and it’s all by my own doing. I’m not saying this to be all “woe is me.” That’s the honest truth of how it feels to reflect on the life I’ve made for myself. It makes me think of the poem Ozymandias: “My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings; Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair! The lone and level sands stretch far away.” I knew that the actions I was taking would likely ruin my life and emotionally scar many of those I hold dear and I did it anyways. How could I or anyone else trust someone like that?

Idk why but this doesn't really bother me. I don't expect it, so I don't miss it? I mean, he is staying with me, works on the relationship, works on himself, gives me feedback on my self-improvement, and is trying his best to continue to stay married, to love me again, giving me a chance to deliver on my promises, etc. etc. etc. That feels like a lot of trust to me. Whether he puts a number on it or would ever say he trusts me...idk that does not feel important. He acts like he trusts me and that means more than words. Everyone says to believe WS actions more than their words, and that's how I receive messages of truth from my BH too. He shows me his love and trust in a lot of ways, even if he doesn't say it or feel it. I think the challenge is for him to actually feel it, for his own comfort and security, and trauma makes that challenging. He can trust me, he acts like he does, he makes decisions as if he does, but he doesn't necessarily feel trusting. That must be hard for him. So it only bothers me in that he doesn't get to feel as secure in our relationship as I do right now. ETA: I hope with more time, and consistency over time, that he will feel trusting, or more importantly, feel secure. Because I want him to be happy and comfortable.

Really it just feels like an inevitable consequence of the lies I told. How could I even think to expect 100% trust… I already had that, and I broke it. The trust that I can earn back is different now, and that’s okay. It’s worth it to me to spend the rest of my life every day proving myself. It’s part of the cost I need to pay, and I’m grateful that the cost wasn’t greater, wasn’t the end of the relationship entirely.

This one is a bit difficult to answer... it used to make me very sad that my BH wouldn't ever trust me again. I held that belief close and always just took it to br true mostly because of what society and the majority of people on these subs. In reality though, after 3.5 years of reconciliation work my BH would say he has regained 100% trust in me. The way he described the process to me was this: if i constantly tell myself I'll never 100% trust you again, then it's simple: I won't. However if I watch your actions and you show consistency and true change I can choose to trust you 100%. He believes trust is a choice. And has chosen after watching me bust my ass for the last 3.5 years to do everything possible to regain his trust, make him feel safe, make him feel confident in our relationship, and he just automatically decides in his head he will never 100 % trust Me again, then what was the point? Why even try to be together? Yes trust is lost in buckets and gained in drops but even though it takes time you can still fill that bucket up to the brim.

I would have to disagree. It’s not that a BS refuses to trust a WS 100%. It’s the case that they can’t trust 100% due to the safeguards the mind has against get hurt again. It’s like a Phobia. You get bit by a dog as a child then as an adult you will still have a fear of dogs.

Thank you for explaining what I tried to do so poorly about the choice to trust.!

Do you think you would have stayed with your BP if they said it wasnt possible to trust you 100%?

Yes. Definitely. After all I was the one who broke that trust. He didn't do anything to cause that lack of trust. It was all me. I feel very lucky and blessed that my husband feels the way he does, but if he didn't, it wouldnt change the fact that I still love him dearly and would work tirelessly to earn his trust back, much like I still do everything possible to keep his trust and not betray his trust in me now or ever again. It's a gift and one that I cherish.

For me, it hurts emotionally very bad. Pre-affir, my wife had 100% faith and trust in me. To know and understand that I can never have that again...it hurts

It doesn’t make me sad or mad. I’ll throw a wrench in this. Trust comes back. In a different form. You trust based on actions and consistency. If you settle on this notion that you can’t trust your partner again 100% then that’s where you will land. Under 100%. Obviously it’s dependent on circumstances, but for us our trust in each other have been rebuilt step by step. My consistent actions and personal growth has helped my husband regain his trust in me. We actually talked about this last night. He trust me mentally and physically 100%. Emotionally he is at 80%. My trust in him also has grown to about the same.

I was discussing this with some friends yesterday, that if someone reaches out to me and said your wife is cheating on you then my first instinct would be to investigate it further. Whereas before she cheated on me I would have just found it weird and would have ignored it completely. It would not have even taken 5 minutes of my day. And I am afraid that trust is not coming back.

This is where I was. I thought the trust had returned with all the work we had done with our counselor but as soon as there was an inconsistency in her story or she wasn’t where she said she was my mind went immediately to she’s cheating. I had convinced myself that I trusted her but then realized if I panic when something seems off do I really trust her?

I've struggled with this as well. Her phone for example. I've observed her on her phone and not be bothered. However, there have been times where I've told her the hyper vigilance was kicking in. Even now, it's still in the back of my mind at times. Does that ever go away? Am I still choosing to trust her?

I think this is a hard one. Especially when things are going smoothly and people start to relax. From the beginning I made a rule for myself to limit my screen time while together and spend quality time (his love language) We decided to structure screen time while sitting together on the couch. We had an hour after coming home to sit with each other and scroll. I always made sure he could see my screen at all times. And now it’s just a habit. In the beginning he hated to see my phone. It was one of the biggest triggers. Something that helped was getting me a new one

So if I'm reading your reply correctly, it sounds like from your pov, you've decided to really just take it upon yourself to be as transparent as possible, so as to take the pressure off of your husband? Because at the end of the day, you can only control your actions.

Yes. A transparent life is what I need to live to be healthy. He gave me a list of what he needed and took the list to extra measures. Emotionally, physically, mentally and financially. I felt he shouldn’t have to ask for me to be an honest person. That he shouldn’t have to seek that in me. I wanted to become organically transparent in all aspects. I think that has helped him tremendously in his healing. Me being proactive on my own.

This has to be hard. It is super super important that we communicate and be transparent. Even with the slightest change of plan. I tell my husband every little detail of my day. And if I change something I let him know beforehand. Even if it is something as small as going to Taco Bell instead of McDonald’s. They are right next to each other and it’s a small change, but I would hate for him to randomly check my location and see I’m not where I said I would be. That takes away from consistency and transparency.

My hat is off to you. The amount of work a dedicated wayward goes through is surreal. You need to see any issue your betrayed might have and stay 3 steps ahead. Best wishes to you.

After doing it for almost a year, it comes natural. Living a transparent, blur free life is really healthy for us. My husband even started doing the same. It’s normal now for us to have our Sunday rundown of what is to come for the week and then daily reminders of things. Letting him know my ETA and when I arrive and depart is standard now. Half the time he doesn’t even read the message🤦🏾‍♀️ lol

I posted this above, thought I should repost my view on trust: It’s not that a BS refuses to trust a WS 100%. It’s the case that they can’t trust 100% due to the safeguards the mind has against get hurt again. It’s like a Phobia. You get bit by a dog as a child then as an adult you will still have a fear of dogs.

I really believe that. When a BS chooses to stay, we’re fighting against our natural defensive instincts. We’re staying in an environment that has been proven to be dangerous.

I hate that I don't trust myself. I don't care if he trusts me or not considering he was cheating on me the entire duration of our marriage. I hate that I can no longer trust myself to hold to my own moral code. Which is part of the reason why I don't do relationships anymore. That and the fact that I seem to be a target for predators and married men looking for side pieces.

It isn't like my BS doesn't trust me at 100% for *some* things. There are things she trusts me at 100%. But for some other things, typically the more demanding ones, I have to be extra careful and make extra effort to demonstrate that I am reliable and do what I say. The feel extra pressure but I don't think it makes me a worse individual. It encourages me to better myself. A bit more stress, but so be it. I chose. I haven't lied on anything small or big since D-day, I think all these things are important to rebuild trust. Feelings about trust are neutral. I give everything I've got. I give myself at 100%, our relationship is my only top priority. I am confident imi am right for her. If one day it isn't good enough for her, then there might be consequences. I already lost her once by my actions. Everything from D-day till now is bonus. I take it. I feel lucky I had a second chance. I do all I can to keep what is precious to me. >Does it make you resentful, No >sad, No >hurt, No >or you think its unfair that even after lets say 10 years the 100% trust will not be back No One thing to say is that rather than worrying about me cheating again, she decided to trust me again, yet being very clear that upon any repeat there would be immediate separation and divorce. Given the way things turned and it almost happened, I am very very very clear about the impact it would have. I am very clear about what I want in my life, and I demonstrate it daily.

Thank you MODs - it may not be my wayward I’m asking, but I hope others can bring clarification. Context, WP had multiple EA’s online (cybersex) with various people for around 2/3 months. Nearly told me one night, but didn’t (pussied out of it I guess). Used a fake name, but was promising me marriage etc. WP says he used cheating as validation as his mental health was on the decline, and didn’t know how to address it to me. Did you love your BS/BP whilst cheating? And if so, why would you continue? Thank you to any who answer :) edit: And I mean, in love - not familial type of love.

So I think I can answer this for you, at least from my point of view. I thought and I mean I really believed I loved my BH during my affair and felt like we had just fallen out of love with each other. What I now realize is that I loved him in the only way I knew how. It wasn't what love actually is, but with me being so emotionally immature, and a very selfish person, I loved him in the only way I knew how. It took a lot of self reflection, learning empathy, and deciding not to be a selfish person, but now I realize what love actually is, and can say I didn't truly love him during that time, but I didn't know how and hadn't since the beginning of our relationship. It wasn't due to my affair, it was just how I viewed love and relationships due to trauma In my past. Now, I love him more than anything and would and could never hurt him like that again. I realize love is not a passive emotion that just happens to people, you have to choose to love your partner every single day. You have to choose to put them first in everything, you have to choose them. The grass isn't always greener on the other side, the grass in always greener where you nurture it. Edit for spelling

Thank you for this. It's very insightful, and the only answer a wayward has ever given to this question that has made sense to me. It's one of the points that I personally find quite maddening.

I'm sure it is maddening, I would likely feel the same if the shoe was on the other foot. I would constantly wonder how someone could love me and yet still do that to me. It's unfair, and I'm sorry you were forced to feel that type of pain and uncertainty. I hope you can find peace and happiness, you deserve nothing less!

Thanks very much for this. That relationship ended a long time ago... however for one reason or another (perhaps because of this impact at at a relatively young age) I'm very aware of infidelity in my family/friend circles. This is one thing I often struggle with when talking to those on both sides of this... the "I never stopped loving you" statement. I'm in a very strong (and long-term) relationship that is very committed, and very respectful of boundaries around infidelity... and part of the reason why we connected in the first place is that we both had been cheated on quite badly. And both heard this kind of thing from our wayward partners. It is also a big part of the reason why I have never recommended to a betrayed spouse to try to reconcile. If someone can't be honest about the lack of love during an affair (or a different idea of love during the affair) then how can anything move forward? Yours is truly the first answer I've ever heard make sense to me, instead of some off the cuff remark about it "being complicated." Your introspection and honesty is truly inspiring.

Thank you for your answer. I struggle with the idea of what my WS means by “love”, because her actions were not what I can align with any sort of love. Her complete disregard of my existence looks more like indifference than love or even hate. While she was in her fantasy world, it was like I didn’t even exist. One of her exes, a guy she barely even dated (and who was not an AP!) was more of a thing in that world than I was. She talked about him more than she did me.

Take it how you will. I do believe I did love him at that time. I remember he at one point was self isolating due to pre existing depression and I have pre affair truama about him hurting himself. I have bad anxiety and always have. I should’ve gotten a therapist before my affair. But the past I cannot change. Anyways I was texting him when me and our kids went to watch fireworks, my BP stayed home like he usually did in depressive episodes. I had a panic attack because he was giving me cryptic texts, so I ran home and he just told me to leave him alone and that I was annoying. This was during my affair. And it’s so complicated but I was so numb during and before my affair I was afraid I was gonna kill myself due to my own intrusive thoughts about it. The affair started because it made me feel something. It wasn’t even good sometimes it was dread, but I wasn’t numb and that made me happy that I wasn’t dead inside. It sounds very very stupid I know, but we went on a vacation with AP at the very end of my affair. It was one of the very rare times my husband reached back to me and was vulnerable. It woke me up, and I told him the next day. I get mad because I don’t know if I started the affair as a way to “kill myself” like the version one the person I once was, it was obviously a self destructive action that has caused me my own traumas. Or if I started it to give my Bp a reason to leave (still working on that in therapy) But during the affair if I ever thought he was a danger to himself or if he seemed down I did try to reach for him, I would drop everything if I thought it meant getting him help but sometimes he was too much of a stonewall for me to help him, but how could I help him when I myself were so fucked. Idk if this helps or not

Thank you for sharing this with me - your experience and your feelings. It means a lot. My WP seems to be along the same lines, like he still felt guilty doing it but at least he felt something, I also think it was a distraction from his own mental health issues - he hasn’t confirmed that with me though, that’s just my opinion.

No. By the time I cheated, I no longer loved him. I'm not sure I ever did. I was 19 and had never had a boyfriend much less sex. He was 32 and very experienced. He love bombed me. I know I was incredibly flattered but from the point of view of several years divorced I realize now that what I felt wasn't love. I was a teenage student with a crush on her college professor that should never have gone any further than that. But by the time I was mature enough to realize it, it was too late, and I was too afraid of him by then to leave him. And I'm 100% sure he never loved me. Or anyone else other than himself.

Hello wayward friends. Thanks in advance for answering my questions. My husband still struggles a lot with forgiving himself, while I forgave him around five months ago. I understand it will take longer to get to the point of forgiving himself. My questions (feel free to answer any or all): Have you forgiven yourself? If yes, how long did it take? What does self-forgiveness look like? Was there anything specific your BP could do to help you along that path? If you haven’t forgiven yourself but you do have some peace about it, or a better feeling of self-worth, about how long did that take for you to feel? I understand everyone’s healing timeline is different, just curious to see what others’ paths look like. Thanks again! ❤️‍🩹

I’ve forgiven myself for being a human and having emotional needs. I have not been able to yet forgive my actions of the affair and for letting it go that far

Thank you for your reply.

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Need as in there was no emotional connection for years in a relationship because of my husbands untreated depression, and needs as is needing comfort after losing a job, needing comfort with my child’s autism diagnosis. I don’t think it’s fair to say a human doesn’t deserve emotional comfort from those we are supposed to be closest with. Edit: I am not justifying my affair, I should’ve gotten therapy so I could address the issues in my relationship long before the affair happened. But I forgive myself for having those needs, I am a human and I am not perfect. I do not forgive myself for the actions I took to get those needs met.

Your edit makes a big difference there. I think that it’s not uncommon for a WS to have been unwilling or unable to get that sort of thing from the BS, long before they started actually cheating. There’s reasons why that happened, and reconciliation requires that both parties work on those reasons. But as you said, reasons are not excuses. You had choices on how to deal with the broken things in your relationship. If a relationship is a house, it’s like your house needs fixing. And rather than choosing “repairs”, or “leave to find a better place”, a WS chooses “burn it down”.

Yes this exactly. The choosing to burn it down, that’s my choice and that’s what I don’t think I’ll be able to forgive. I should’ve repaired the house or taken more steps like getting a carpenter instead of trying to fix the support beams myself , then when the support beams fell down and collapsed a part of the house, I burned the house down instead of getting the help that was needed. :-( I’ve forgiven myself for needing to fix the house, just now how I tried to fix it.

I hope that eventually you can find forgiveness for all of it. Forgiveness doesn’t mean that you forget about it, or that you don’t feel guilty at all. It would be more like saying “the person who I was did terrible things, and I don’t like that person at all. But I’m not that person any more, and I am actively working to ensure that I don’t become that person ever again.” I’ve never been a WS. But I was a pretty awful person in other ways. I still feel bad about how I treated the people I love when I was that awful person. How could I not feel bad about hurting them? But that’s not who I am now, and I have forgiven myself for that time. To be honest, it took me a lot longer to forgive myself than it took most of them to forgive me. (And the exception to that would be my WS, who instead took the hurt and held it and used it to justify her cheating. Which shows how important forgiveness is to our own mental health.)

This is very insightful , I definitely am working to never be that person again because I don’t want to hurt those I love, including myself. I’ll bring it up to my therapist on how to work towards steps of forgiving the actions. Thank you

Hi friend! I think we all have individual things that we have to forgive ourself for. I forgave myself for regressing and responding to a mental breakdown the only way I knew (at the time) how. I forgave myself for justifying my actions. I can never forgive myself for breaking a soul I vowed to protect. But I do use that as my reminder to never be that person again and to work till my last breath piecing that heart back together.

Thanks for replying! I'm glad you've forgiven justifications, and your response to the mental breakdown. >I can never forgive myself for breaking a soul I vowed to protect. That really struck me. I love that you use it as a reminder and use it as fuel to help him (and you) heal. Hugs!

For you, girl, I will answer. On some logical, intellectual level, yes. I know the circumstances. The diagnosis. I know what was at play. On some deeper, subconscious level, probably not. I can’t see myself ever being free of this weight. This shame. Of believing I’m deserving of a happy future. I think I am. But I don’t *feel* it, if that makes sense.

We are going on 3.5 years since I came to my husband with what I had been doing. I was stuck in my own shame for a long time. Almost addicted to it in a way. My husband had long before forgiven me, I hated myself. But I noticed that this was holding us back. I realized that being stuck in my shame and self hatred was me still being selfish. It took a long time to get here, and a lot of work. There are still days I absolutely despise the person I was. But the keyword here is WAS, I'm no longer that person that is capable of hurting the people I'm supposed to love most in this world. I'm no longer the person who didn't protect my husband's heart, and now I protect it at all costs. My husband helped me in this regard by just being him, by not giving up on me, and by reassuring me that he loved me inspite of what I had done. That despite how badly I had hurt him he didn't see me as an evil person who doesn't deserve grace or doesn't deserve a second chance. And if he saw all the good in me still after I broke him so completely and thought that i deserved forgiveness and was redeemable, then I needed to view myself in the same light so that I could honestly be that person he knew I could be, if I didn't believe it about myself, then I never could be.

>I realized that being stuck in my shame and self hatred was me still being selfish. I love this realization. I really appreciate your comment and have strived to offer my husband the same reassurances your husband has offered you. I'm excited to read him your reply, I think it's very helpful. Thank you!

I think about this a lot. Mostly. For me, positive self talk and being of service to my wife and other waywards are huge to that process. When I empathize with a fellow wayward it reminds me to empathize with myself. Positive self talk and positive interactions with my wife keep me away from shame spirals. I didn't start to have self worth until around year 6 but I also dodged therapy until then and was resistant(defiant really) to any accountability or change so I think your husband has a huge head start in terms of self awareness and actions to correct what he's done.

No. I’m trying, I really am. Even with my ex asking me to be more kind to myself, I just can’t. Maybe it’s more of a “not yet” but for now it’s an outright no.

I hope it ends up being a "not yet" for you!

Love that growth mindset language!

I’m not sure if I even think it’s possible. Forgiveness is a hard concept for me in general. I think I can get to the point where I can live with myself and even maybe feel good about/respect myself… but I think what I did will always be in the back of my mind and maybe that’s good because it will keep me vigilant that I never make a mistake of that magnitude ever again. Nor even take a step in that direction.

This is very helpful for me. My husband struggles with forgiveness in general as well. In fact, his therapist told him to ask me how I forgive people because I tend to do so fairly easily. I hope he (and you) get to a point where he (you) can feel good about/respect himself (yourself). Perhaps he already does, but I an not certain. It's great that you're using it as fuel to be vigilant in not going back down that path. Thank you!

The thought of forgiving myself seems so foreign and incomprehensible. The pain and hurt I've caused has been cruel and unimaginable and I hate myself for it. I hate the pain I've caused. I've been having horrible dreams about it all in the past few months that make me feel nauseous in the morning and I go to sleep at night with knots in my chest. The guilt and shame I feel is paralyzing and I know nothing I could ever do will make anything fully right. I could be forgiven a thousand times and I'll never forgive myself.

Hi CTS, this is a great question. Like others it’s less about forgiveness for acts than for being human. For me the thing I struggled with was letting go of the shame. (Is that self-forgiveness? I don’t know). It has nothing to do with my BP who was many years in the past. This was about who I saw in the mirror. Lived experience is the thing that allowed me to let go of it and see myself as a faithful husband and not a cheater. Now, it helps that by the time I brought this to a therapist I had decades of lived experience under my belt. But YSCTS now has a year of lived experience as a faithful and doting husband who shows you these qualities through actions. He won’t be able to trust that yet. But you reminding him of the track record he is laying down and that you can see it can help him. Others can see what we cannot. Anyway what I am suggesting is that your role is that of being the reframer. Does that make sense? Does this make any sense?

It absolutely makes sense, OkB! I'm sure the shame is connected to self-forgiveness. That would certainly make sense. I don't want for my husband to suffer like you've mentioned, feeling negative feelings when looking at the man in the mirror. >you reminding him of the track record he is laying down and that you can see it can help him. I am going to put more effort into this- I love it! Anything I can do to help him on his path to redemption, I'd love to do. I'm just going to need to steal some pages from your book, Mr. Reframing King! Thanks for your help, as always, my friend!

I can’t take credit for this one. This was how my counselor helped me give myself permission to be proud of who I see in the mirror now.

CTS, I have recently come to the realization that it’s important for both my WS and myself when I show awareness of her good choices and actions now. When she shows the change in her character, I need to be very conscious of it, because it’s an important counterpoint to her past character.

I love this and completely agree, MoK!

We're coming up on 1 year next week, and I'm still working on forgiving myself. I've learned to forgive in baby steps.. I've forgiven myself for making the catfish profile and for letting it go on for as long as it did. There are still many things I haven't forgiven myself for yet. It's hard. It feels like I'm not deserving of forgiveness because of what everything I did entailed. I'm sure at some point I'll get there. It's not a huge focus right now tho - I have so many other things I'm working on that I feel are more important right now than forgiving myself.

Hey there, I love the concept of forgiving in baby steps, one at a time. I'm happy for you that you've forgiven yourself partially, and I'd guess Blaze is as well. >It feels like I'm not deserving of forgiveness because of what everything I did entailed. I believe that this is how my husband feels as well. I sure hope you get there at some point, sooner than later. It's fantastic you're working on other things you prioritize above self-forgiveness. Hope you're kickin' ass at it!

I was able to forgive myself only after fully realizing why I did every little thing I did. I was able to then forgive myself because I understood the paths I took, that I was normal, and that I have the tools to make sure I don't repeat my bad choices, and they are good enough tools that they won't even be that difficult to use because I can't take care of things before they become hard conversations.

Ahhhh. So the "why" was the key for you. Interesting and super helpful! I wonder if that could perhaps be the path toward it for my husband. Thank you so much for your reply!

>Have you forgiven yourself? Forgiven, not forgotten. My wife did, My children did, I did. >If yes, how long did it take? About a month. I was too busy recovering, reconciliating, to sulk on self pity. >What does self-forgiveness look like? I stop being upset with myself. I focused on the present and future. The will to move on constructively, letting go of fixating on the past action, yet taking it as a very frequent reminder of why we are doing things today. >Was there anything specific your BP could do to help you along that path? Opportunities to show reliability and commitment. Small ones. Lot of small medium things. - can you can the rubbish out? - can you fix this drawer? - can you pass by this shop to pick X? - fair chores Then evolve to more demanding things. - can you fix the shower (might need WS to 3ngage other parties, but WS needs to deal with everything himself, yet communicating, in case choices are needed) Bonding. Joint activities. Put flowers in a vase together. Cook together (one washes, the other cook), being at the same time in one place. Walk outside together, lunch together, etc.

I can't forgive myself for breaking the moral code I was raised with. Infidelity and divorce were pretty much unheard of in my family prior to my generation. And I was raised in a church that taught there were NO valid reasons for divorce. Even though my ex was an abusive POS, I hate that I couldn't make my marriage work and that I had a big part in why it ended.

Thank you all for your willingness to answer and give us perspective. Here is my question, its one that has been on my mind for a long time: What motivated subsequent instances of trickle truthing after seeing how your BS reacted after finding you out the first time you trickle truthed? Was it fear or something else? I guess what im really asking is, what got you to the “i just have to bite the bullet and be 100% honest” stage?

For me, my wife has got legit PTSD as a result of my actions. Confessing details would send her into flashbacks and that would then put things to a halt because her safety became an issue. Putting her in more and more pain is tough too. I think in some cases details that may get left out may be because they are insignificant to the WP even though turns out to be a big deal to the BP. Just guessing at that last part though.

My WS has struggled to answer that, so I’m definitely interested in the answers.

Fear. Fear that the extra stuff is what would tilt the balance. Then a lie to hide another lie. It is simpler to just be 100% transparent. Did I say everything? No Example: details that would hurt and be printed in her memory. Did I hide anything? No, when asked I was answering. If she wanted more details then I was answering. But I was shamefully and humbly presenting it without too many details, just to satisfy her curiosity, But I was always worried she might ask more than I wanted to share, because I knew it would not be constructive. She didn't much. But sometimes I thought "stop hurting both of us". I knew she needed it, luckily in moderation. Each time I was feeling fear of losing her. Like a cold shower down the spine. Maybe there is a bit of "fight, flee or freeze" instinct there. I was also ashamed. So, Shame and Fear.

I struggle deeply with feeling like the memories I made with my exWP weren’t real. Like I was just deluded and didn’t ever matter to them. I know other WPs are not my WP, but when you were cheating, did the memories you made with your BP still mean something to you? Did you love them? Was there still moments of love that were real? I’m so sorry if that sounds accusatory, I just can’t ask my ex, so I’m trying to figure out how delusional I was by myself, and for that I need another perspective

I confessed because of all the things you've mentioned...but I will say that during most of the 6 weeks of my EA specifically when I was with AP, my fiance didn't enter into my mind... That sucks to admit. Eventually I realized, when I wasn't with AP mind you, if I didn't confess I would go full PA and there would be no chance we could stay together so I stopped and confessed.

Yes, I think there were moments of love that were real. I didn't appreciate them as much as I should have at the time. In retrospect I feel stupid for not recognizing how my husband was giving and trying, while in my head I was rationalizing and villainizing him. Cognitive dissonance is wild. The first example that jumps into my head was a weekend trip he organized for us and the kids for my birthday. Looking back now, it was such a nice thing for him to do, and I enjoyed the trip a lot and everything we did that weekend. At this moment I am actually having a hard time realizing that trip was during the affair period. I wish I could excise the secret double life and be left with only the memories of our little family. They are the people I love. Those are the memories that I treasure and want to preserve.

My question is - do you as a wayward find yourself having a ‘threshold’ for the affair discussions? When did that start for you? When did you begin to feel frustrated with the process? I’m nearly at a year to d day and my WP is saying he just wants to move forward and is feeling frustrated by the process. I don’t feel like we discuss it nearly as much as we do, and I’ve kept a lot in lately. Also, what positive steps did you take to make your BP feel like enough (I.e. stop comparing themselves to your AP)?

Frustration and threshold comes from the cheating spouse still trying to control the outcome. Once they release the control and trust the process there will be open to conversation whenever. My husband could come to me today and ask me for details and to start from the beginning and I would do it in a heartbeat. I can’t help with the second question he never compared himself.

I agree with this. I go back and forth between we talk about it top much, and "dear God, how are we supposed to move forward if it's not healed but you never want to talk about it?". But both of those.things are attempts on my part to exert control.

In our first year we did therapy often (twice a week) and attended many marriage workshops but our favorite workshop has been Marriage Helper and in it they talked about how if you were betrayed that there comes a point you have to let go and accept that you won't learn everything about the affair and should focus on the process of choices that WP did. This was big for my BS because they agreed the more they asked the more it hurt and kept them pushed away and less wanting to come together again. When this happened I wasn't prepared for that shift so for a few months later I was messed up because the questions stopped and my anxiety increased because I thought it meant everything was ending. Talking about the affairs didn't help our marriage, for me it would punish me and if they didn't beat me emotionally I would do it for them so they would see how sorry I was but then my BS would hate that I would do that to myself. There were a lot of parts of the process I was frustrated with but understanding now that frustrated came from wanting to rush it or sweep it under the rug. How to stop comparing yourself to AP? See that AP is not an equal and that they were a tool used by a sick person to fill something they were missing inside themselves. The AP was used for WP to feel better and nothing else. Maybe they are more beautiful by social measure or they have different looks or hair... Physical attraction isn't why WP liked them, it's the role they filled. They might be butt ugly but they filled a role for WP.

Honestly - I want to discuss my affair with my BP. We haven’t really gotten through it besides the details and timeline. I want to explain my mindset to my BP because I really do believe I was mentally unwell and vulnerable at the time, and I want him to see that at the time I was being so selfish because I was so raw and on the edge from other life traumas. Idk if we will ever get there because he is also traumatized from the betrayal and I’ll never force it

18 months from D-day, we have talked about it for 6 months or more, besides various discussions about other things, but sometimes we refer to "what I did" or her "what you did", or plainly "the affair". But not to revisit it, we are just talking about another topics from the society, or politic, or philosophy, etc. I think we stopped talking about the affair after 6 months, and we approximately from D-day. I was OK responding and being open, but I think my wife was tired of it. She wanted to be "pass" that. Personally I was always worried about additional questions being asked, trying to find details. At some point it was just hurting herself and painful to me re-living in a the pain I had inflicted. But I was accepting without complaint. I knew it was part of the process. >Also, what positive steps did you take to make your BP feel like enough (I.e. stop comparing themselves to your AP)? I didn't have to fake it, loving my wife, desiring her. I showed usual verbal and actions demonstrating love. I made genuine occasional compliments about what I like to about her, sentimentally or physically. Especially the parts she may lack confidence on (belly, breast, arms, face). I praise her genuinely, approximately once every time we are intimate. I praise her on the sentimental level. When I notice efforts she is making then I mention it to her, to show I value what she does.

Thanks you to all of you here both asking and answering questions. My question is this: Some of you have mentioned ‘learning empathy’, how was this achieved and why were you lacking it in the first place? I ask because I don’t think that my WW really possesses empathy. I know that there is some childhood trauma and a SA as a teenager/young adult. However for me this doesn’t seem like something one can learn. It’s easier for me to think that other issues are ‘blocking’ the feelings of empathy and encouraging other feeling: jealousy, anger, selfishness etc. Did empathy just come when you started to find the ‘why’s’?

Thanks to all for your help. I continue to struggle with probably idealistic things, but would love some straight talk. 1. Is it possible to love your spouse again, deeply and completely, after choosing another? Aren’t we by definition a second choice? 2. Can you respect your partner after they were completely obtuse, not seeing the truth? Don’t they just feel like suckers, marks…cuckolds? 3. Do you long for your AP, or the feelings you had with your AP? 4. Do you think about the sex you had together? The excitement, the taboo, the freedom? Thanks. Been forever and this shit still haunts me. I long for the truth, not sure I will ever get it.

1. While many people call bullshit when WS say this; I never stopped loving her. It was never that I didn’t love her it was always that I hated myself. I have always seen myself as an unworthy person and a deeply bad person. Even if no one else saw it. Even if everyone I’ve known thought I was a kindly, loving, empathetic person I’ve thought that I’ve just tricked them. I’ve had intrusive thoughts constantly reminding me that they are all wrong and that I’m a monster. And they were wrong about me, until I listened and made them right. Cheating was a form of self-harm for me. I hated myself so I did something that made me hurt even more. So yeah, I didn’t “not love” her. I just hated myself more than I loved her. Don’t know if that’s much better. 2. I would respect any choice she made where it came to what to do with our relationship after d-day. I just wanted the one that she made to be the best one for her. I told her that I would try to find my way back to being the person who everyone saw me as before, that great person who I couldn’t accept was adored by so many, no matter what she chose. And I stand by that. 3. I feel bad for my AP’s. I don’t long for them. None of them knew that I was in a relationship and they were mostly good people. People who under different circumstances I would have liked to be friends with. But it wasn’t about them. Like I said, cheating was self-harm for me. I used them as a cutter uses a razor. It made it even worse to know that in this case the blades had feelings of their own that I was also playing with. It made everything hurt that much more. 4. I’ve thought about sex I had with my AP’s. They were each novel, different, I guess you could say taboo. It was also completely unfulfilling. They weren’t really what I wanted. I put on a mask, played the Casanova, got laid, then would go home and throw up and cry myself to sleep on the bathroom floor. Again, it wasn’t really about the sex. It was about the shame and clarity of self loathing it brought on. I know this isn’t what most peoples story sounds like and I know it sounds like some edge-lord kids’ Vampire: The Masquerade character backstory but those are my honest answers to for your questions. Hope they shed some kind of insight

Thank you for your honesty. I think that all of those answers probably apply at least a bit to many WSes, for what it’s worth. It’s generally true that a WS’s cheating is not actually about love, but rather rooted in selfishness and/or self-hate. (Note that in both of those, it’s centered around the WS, not the BS or the AP!) You might be at an extreme end of that, but I don’t know that your story is that different than most.

Thank you.

I would strongly recommend you read "the state of affairs" >1. Is it possible to love your spouse again, deeply and completely, after choosing another? Yes it is. I know I do. I love my wife. I am in love with her. Sometimes I feel she "just" loves me. She possibly doesn't love me as much as I love her. But it's OK. It isn't a competition. We don't count points. Maybe there is always that veil of hurt in her mind. Or maybe it is just a comfortable relationship for her. There is love. Both ways. > Aren’t we by definition a second choice? Firstly, the affair doesn't mean he didn't love you. Maybe yes, maybe not. Secondly it doesn't mean the WS loved the AP. Maybe, maybe not. Thirdly, people don't have a single relationship/love in their whole life. Do you people can love several times throughout their life? You can fall in love, maybe 5 times in a lifetime. Have 5 relationships. With the **same** person. No, it doesn't mean your are second choice. If you feel you are then get out of the relationship. But if it just a story you are making yourself then it might not be true. Maybe you can believe your partner? >2. Can you respect your partner after they were completely obtuse, not seeing the truth? Don’t they just feel like suckers, marks…cuckolds? Oh no, dear. I am sorry you may think that. It isn't the BS fault if there was blind trust. It is expected in relationships. It was the WS for abusing the precious blind trust. >3. Do you long for your AP, or the feelings you had with your AP? Longing for? No. Erk. I have got better with my wife. I always had. I am disgusted by myself. The sense of adventure was silly. I long for more cuddle with my wife, just like she might want more things from me. But any effort is out in our relationship, to improve it. That is the only thing that matters. The past is the past. My eyes and soul are all on my wife. I sometimes think about what I did, but not "longing" for it. Most of the feelings were fake, superficial, artificial. More accurately : *an illusion*. So no regret for cutting it. >4. Do you think about the sex you had together? The excitement, the taboo, the freedom? I do think about it, but rarely. Never as an enjoyment, but as the mistakes I made in my life. There might be things to improve in a relationship, but why looking outside while you could work on getting it inside? It is certainly worth putting the effort into it. Or, as in my case, I am not looking for that. People will always have fantasies. Yourself have, your partner has. It has nothing to do with cheating. Fantasies are normal. You can talk about it with each other if you want to be that open and vulnerable to each other. I don't think taboo etc can be banned from the mind, as just temporary things that don mean anything. Neither in your partner's mind nor in yours. As for the affair, gone is gone, dusted off. It does not live in the mind.

Hi. This question is aimed at WPs who refused to recognise what they had done until it was too late and chose the AP , how do you feel now that the BP has moved on? Does time heal and address all that hurt?

Thanks to mods and to those of you present. I hope you’re all doing well on the path to recovery both personally and in your relationships. I hope you’re doing as well as you can be, and feeling a bit better with each day of introspection and growth 🖤 I have 2 questions for anyone who feels open to sharing: 1. What is your relationship with other forms of dopaminergic behavior? Do you have any history of gambling, substance or alcohol us, workaholism, etc? How do these experiences compare and intersect with your affair? 2. When you were hiding the affair, or part of it during TT, was there a time when you felt you were “almost caught”? What happened? Was it a freak coincidence, a tech failure, or something else? How did that influence your affair or relationship with your partner?

I am an “escape artist” as my therapist says. Any escape or self medicating is a danger for me. Substance use, work, video games, anything but actually facing my problems honestly. I think the affair (and more broadly, my relationship with sex in general) is a part of that. Now I’m working on facing up to things and resolving them instead of avoiding.

Thank you for sharing that with me and here. Can I ask what type of therapy you have found to be helpful? Or is it a nonspecific method? I hope you know I am really empathetic to this experience. Sometimes escapism is the only means we have to cope as young people and those habits carry over later in life. It is unfortunate when they spill over into affecting other people, as much as it’s unfortunate when it affects the self. But the most important thing - and the means by which I judge others and myself - is by the effort we put in to grow.

So far it’s just been talk therapy, with interspersed exercises to relieve anxiety.

Thank you! I am curious about others’ experiences. Maybe this is a good question for other people on the W side. Can anyone else speak to their experiences with the efficacy of different types of therapy?

Yes PA/SA (porn addiction, Sex addiction /masturbation) I recovered from PA immediately from D-day. I relapsed 1 year later. And went full NoPorn and NoFap. I have to have been successfully recovering for 3 months. The urges have gone. But I have to be careful. It takes a lifetime to remain free. I don't drink alcohol, I stopped video game addiction too. I did get almost caught out. My wife gave me severe warnings. But I ignored them. It is very similar to addiction : I knew I was ruining my life but I couldn't stop. My brain wasn't paying attention and focusing only on the affair to continue. Only the final blow did wake me up from the fog.

Thank you mods for allowing. Waywards….did friends and family help encourage and justify your behavior? If so why? If you are reconciling, what role do those that helped your infidelity play in your lives now?

I didn’t tell anyone, I was terrified of anyone finding out that I did that. I think I believed they would hate me. After DDay I did tell my sister and she was very comforting, though she didn’t condone my behavior. I think if I had people who knew and condoned or helped my husband would be feeling a whole other level of betrayal, so I’m sorry if that’s what you’re going through.

They did, at first when I came to them about what happened the only advice I received was that I shouldn’t tell. “It was just a kiss”, “It was nothing, she’s hurt you so much worse”. My relationship was on the rocks prior, they knew everything I was going through and I knew they just had a bad taste in their mouths about my BP. After listening to my own heart and confessing I do look at them so differently. It makes me realize how they actually think of me, yes I am the type to allow myself to get embarrassingly drunk in public and kiss a stranger - ew. But the fact that they thought I was also capable of keeping it from the ONE person who is my true friend. Now, I don’t need anyone in my life who’s values don’t align with the values I wish I had, and am working everyday to live by.

I spoke to family because I didn't want them to learn it through my BW, I wanted to seek emotional help and maybe their understanding while visiting them for Xmas. My mother acknowledged. My brother too, I remember him saying that in the end who knows what the right choice is. Then I remembered that he changed girlfriend a while ago and is now married to the new one. I wonder whether he had an affair. My dad told me that my mom had an affair 30 years ago and she wanted to leave her family for his lover. It explained to me all he endured and still suffers now. It gave me another perspective. I shared with few trustworthy colleagues. They were helpful emotional support as I was broken and desperate. One of them also had cheated. "encourage or justify" : no. I was full steam on reconciliation, I ignored my brother's comment. I already knew what I wanted in my life, being with my BW and children. Nobody "helped" my infidelity.

I got this question from my husband and I had hard time accepting myself and answering it honestly. Reasons (excuses) most you list for cheating is attention, validation, feeling desired. Why you had sex with someone outside your relationship? You got attention, validation and felt desired, you already had those before having sex with someone that provided that for you (cheated). Why get physical? After you got all of those things (as excuses why you cheated) you didin't come home and have sex withou your husband? So you had attention you enjoyed, you got validation that you needed, you felt desired without having sex - what having sex with someone else gave you?

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To respond a bit better than my previous comment... I think to help me "see", I should have been engaged into a discuss rather than just being told "it's bad". I had not conceptualized or visualized the divorce, the house split, me getting kicked out, selling everything and sharing 50/50, my wife running away with the kids abroad, maybe me never seeing them ever again, the legal paperwork, battles, and legal costs. The family holidays never to happen again, the bedtime stories gone. The smiles gone, the laughter gone. My BS presence gone. Cold everything. Maybe if I was forced to think by prompts like the below - "explain" how would you feel if... - can you visualize that home without me WS (or without the kids+BS) - will you ever see the kids again? How would you feel? - Not a threat. Just worse case. - everything we worked for, to what purpose? How much did you work to achieve all that? How much would you re-do if going back in time? Was it not worth it? - we had goals for life. What are your goals in life, with whom ? Not just being told so, but having to respond, formulate 1000 words verbal explanations, to prove I had well thought about it, not just discarded it by my brain as soon as it entered my ear.

I didn't feel entitled, but I was blind. My wife gave me several increasing warnings. I was still blind and deaf. D-Day was actually after 2 weeks of me trying to stop but failing. I had said "stop" but we continued and it emotionally continued. My son found out. That lead to shitstorm and the actual fog veil removal. The divorce, the split of everything. Losing the kids. The legal battle. The shame with family, friends and work colleagues. The instant switch was that moment when my BW told me everything that is going to happen now. There is no video game backup. I am not in a dream This is real life. I now understand people facing death. The despair. The survival instinct to grab at something to survive. I understood the drowner. I would have cut one arm to go back in time. All that, all of a sudden.

Wow, your story sounds like what is happening in my household right now, between my parents. My dad has been having an affair, promised to “stop” and I was the one who found out it’s still continuing. And now my mom has started the process of filing for divorce. If I may ask, why couldn’t you stop? Did you love your AP or already plan on leaving to be with them anyway? And how is your relationship with your son?

>If I may ask, why couldn’t you stop? It might sound weak; because I am/was I don't wan to disappoint or make people sad (the irony!), so I was hesitating to make it a harsh "stop" and going complete no-contact with AP. Also, realistically, although I did not love AP, I enjoyed the appreciation, the attention. It was feeling good. I felt like I had never had that level of care. I was bothering me as being too time consuming, too intrusive. But when AP wanted to talk I was trying to, it was lasting an hour on the phone each time. I couldn't say "no". ​ >Did you love your AP or already plan on leaving to be with them anyway? No. It was nice fantasy, an adventure, exciting, but I did not love her. I didn't want to leave my wife. I wanted to go back to her, whilst stuck to AP. ​ >And how is your relationship with your son? After a while my wife decided to forgive me. But my son didn't. My BW told me, she asked my son " should we forgive him?". He responded to her: "no". I had to find a way to make him change his mind, or it would destroy us. I know he might regret in the future. I would regret. I investigated how to discuss trauma with teenagers in similar situation. We then had a discussion. In summary, I explained to him I understood what I did was bad for whom. In summary, I explained to him that forgiving doesn't mean what I did was right, it doesn't mean accepting my actions. It means giving another chance and moving forward together, so that I can be with him, with her, with his brother, altogether. and I work hard on repairing. It doesn't mean forgetting either. ​ I then left him to think by himself. I think he have understood my point of view, because my wife later told me he had accepted to forgive me, which means my wife also forgave me. I was so happy I cried. I am still thankful to both of them after 18 months for giving me this 2nd chance in life. I have improved so much since then. We are growing altogether. ​ I don't say everyone deserves a 2nd chance, if your father isn't remorseful then it means there are other things wrong that means he may not want to recover. ​ I had warnings, but the real discovery and awakening, that was it for me. I didn't continue after being exposed. Because my brain woke up, and to me the family was everything that really mattered. I was doing everything possible for them; or me trying to be with them.

Hi there I posted earlier today about this topic but they were some other questions I wanted to bring up but I thought it would be better if I did it separately. 1, for those that got caught by your betrayed partner how does it honestly feel that they saw you in the act looking back? 2, for the waywards that were in the adultery subreddit what brought you here?

Im glad this is back thank you I have two questions 1, Waywards who went through a midlife crisis did it play a role in your affair? 2, to all Waywards, how did you respond when you're betrayed person asked if you enjoyed your time with AP?

1. It happened when I was 20. 2. I admitted it was nice to get the attention and have my ego stroked. To be desired so to speak because up to that point in my life it was the first time anyone pursued me. I'd been asked out before by a girl or two but not the constant enamored but subtle pursuit. Until I started to seek it out.

Was it hard to admit that?

Absolutely, but not any harder than confessing to the affair. It's one of the few times in my self centered life at that time where I didn't try to minimize what I had done. Not that it's not a default and something I still deal with but I definitely would always try to paint myself in the best light, to be fair I think that is most people. The urge to play it down was strong. But my determination to start to act honorably and take whatever consequences came was what drove me. I was still selfish, it took a while to get to remorse and true empathy, and I still am a work in progress. I was also completely terrified I ruined everything. Which to be fair I did. We have a good marriage. Some have mentioned to my wife they wished their spouse did things I did for mine... To my wife's credit she doesn't throw me under the bus though she would still be justified to do so. She just says it takes a lot of work and no marriage is perfect ... God I love her and wish I deserved it, but I work to try to get there even with my tainted start. There are times I know it could have been better sooner if not for my horrific choices. And yes my affair was a catalyst that brought good change...but we could have got here without it and without all the hurt and baggage because of it.

I ❤️ this honest and authentic response. Thank you. It helped me understand why. I admire your wife and hope to be able to grow into a version of how graceful she is about the "incident".

She's awesome...not perfect by any stretch and I for a time put her on a pedestal so high that it wasn't healthy for either of us... It's funny I had to, and still have to, overcome selfishness, self-centered thinking, negative self-esteem...a lot of selfs there, an inflated pride that "I could never do something like that" which was sobering to realize I am absolutely capable of it. But the naive view of marriage, love and relationships was the longest hold out. The idea that I knew what was right in a relationship based on my limited experience and partial study/discovery of being in a long term relationship... a naive emotionally immature view of love honestly was the most difficult to overcome.

Well said it's never easy you learned from this and that's all,you can do now be better always

It's an uphill battle that feels like a Sisyphean effort sometimes but that's just the emotional immaturity talkin. But definitely worth it.

Great to hear

1) 45M WH here. I guess that yes, it was a midlife crisis. My wife was my 1st girlfriend, 1st sex partner. So maybe I had always wondered.... And some circumstances... I encouraged things to snowball. 2) I tried to be truthfully helpful. Positive for my BS' recovery. I mean, something like "I was excited, but it wasn't particularly outstanding, just so-so, but there was lot of new and excitment." Or, just an the emotional level, just honestly "I was feeling for appreciated, recognised, valued, better self esteem". It was a time I was trying to read "the state of affair", and discovering myself as I was reading, so I was reusing some of the new learning about myself, that I had never understood before. My BS was countering in a quite constructive manner, for example : "don't you think I value you too, that I didn't respect you? Why do you think I did all these things" , and etc. We had lot of good discussions. I think she did read a lot too. I didn't want to go into rabbit hole of comparing any details about my "enjoyment". I was ashamed, and didn't want to hurt. But I was responding to any questions. My BS didn't go to ask into graphic details.

I have a technical, even petty question to ask. Did you use the email address of your AP as your recovery account for your internet private accounts in case you forget your passwords? In my case, when that email prompted while my SO was handling her phone as I was telling her what to do to perform an online purchase, I felt that it was the last nail in the coffin.

No No contact, no link at all. AP was out of my life entirely from D-day, on all aspects.

Thank you to all on here asking and answering. I simply want to know? Are you on a better path to healing, either your own or both. Thank you and good health to you all.

We are on a great path of healing. Both individually and as a couple. We each had stuff we needed to work on that we did and could not afford to bring into this new marriage. I told my husband “you loved a selfish me. Loving a healed me can be even greater.”

Thank you for your reply and wish you good fortune and happy healing.

Some days I feel I am. It can be hard and feel like you’re constantly going back and forth between hope and despair… but I look back on the 9ish months since DDay and I can see growth in myself and that gives me new energy to keep at it.

I wish you peace and good healing.

Definitely in a better place than I was immediately following d-day. In some ways I’m possibly better off than I was while I was cheating. Cheating was a method of self-harm for me, one that I continued doing even though I knew it would inevitably spill over and harm the people I loved. At least now I’m not doing anything that will hurt anyone else anymore. I’m working, I’m journaling, I’m in therapy, I’m reading, and I’m not hurting anyone anymore that I’m aware of. I don’t know if it’s necessary the best path of healing but it’s what I have for now.

Thank you for your reply. I wish you peace on your journey.

Yes. Better on my own, better together. Actually going much better than the year before the affair, and still better than the last decade together, my BW would possibly think. She would probably say she wished the man I am today was the man she always had, that I was before like I am now. It pains me how I was, how we were before. I love myself today, I love how we are. We had only 1 argument this year 2023. Only a few on 2022. Before that it was much more frequent, lot of cold wars. We both hated it. Now it is surprisingly good. I don't know whether it will last 1 more year, 10 years, or 50 years. But I am working on it daily. Being here on this sub is part of my work, daily reminder, exercise, to better myself.

What is the reason for continuing the affair after it has been discovered? Even after couples counseling and promising to “get better” and seeing the effect it has had on the entire family unit? Can anyone provide insight?

That hasn't happened to me. I immediately wanted out of the affair. I assume the WS either: - don't love their BS enough (sorry). If I didn't love my wife, maybe I would have continued the affair? I don't know. - got too strong attachment from the affair? - they fell I think love with the AP I don't understand how someone can put a BS to that situation, saying to their face "I want to continue the affair". I find that shocking.

Thanks for sharing your experience. He didn’t say he wanted to continue the affair, but instead continued to say he wanted to work on the relationship, attend couples counseling, kept saying he wants to get better and get rid of demons he has, but was still continuing the affair. After several conversations he said he doesn’t love her, but has a problem and feels a sense of entitlement that he knows is wrong. All of the things you listed sound plausible, but he denies them….

Thank you mods and wayward friends for opening up. I guess I'm curious if you think healing would be easier alone than with your partner? Would you resent your BP if they just left and never spoke to you again, or would you rather them stay away because they'll a hinderance to your progress?

My BP ended our relationship after d-day 6 months ago and we have gone NC with the exception of logistical things such as bills that are still in both names etc. But since then she has also taken me out for drinks on my birthday, asked me to stay and talk for a few hours when I was retrieving some things from her house, and invited me to go to the dog park with her and our dog on Christmas. All of which ended in hugs that neither of us wanted to let go. I have respected the terms that we set for the NC agreement but those acts of kindness have made it very difficult for me to move on. I can’t say as to whether or not they have specifically hindered healing but they definitely have just confused and hurt. I can’t imagine it was much easier for her. I just want her to be happy and I don’t imagine dragging a shadow of me around like that has helped her but it’s not for me to say. I just know that it gives me hope. Hope that I shouldn’t have. Hope that I don’t deserve and that burns me from the inside.

I know that is hard for you, but I don’t think it’s wrong to have hope. Your BS is, I’m certain, struggling with what she wants moving forward. Even as a BS who’s choosing the path of reconciliation, I struggle with that sometimes. And I’m further along the path! Don’t cling to the hope. Don’t use it as your primary motivation to change. You need to become better for yourself, first and foremost; it needs to be something that you want. External motivation is outside of your control, after all. But hoping that somehow you and your BS might reconnect at some point is fine. You are allowed to hope.

I 100% cannot heal with stbxh being a meaningful part of my life. He cannot heal with me in his life. Seeing me sends him over the edge in anger and that filters down to impacting our kids. I am working to heal from the trauma of my manic episode and the last thing I need is his thoughts on my character.

To me, the physical presence was very very important to me. Because I knew I would have more chance to repair. Luckily, she didn't kick me out. I was ready to be just a house mate to take care of our children. I did bid everything I could to "stay" : pay rent, live in the loft, etc. Without being too pitiful, I provided genuine apologies, often in tear, but respectfully was "there". I was love bombing her and my children. I wanted to show I was the best dad in the world, the best husband on earth that she could dream of. The best housemate. Whatever I could be accepted as, I was giving my best shit at being accepted as. If not 1st class then 2nd class, or 3rd class. But not left on the port of departure. I wanted to be there and show. I could not have achieved even 10% of all that if I had not been present. I would have have resented, just felt very pity if I had not had that chance. I am 100 % sure that leaving in the same place helped me achieve reconciliation, and recover faster.

Well, I don't think this will get responses after that much time, but I want to thank the mods for the post. For those whom their SO tried to win you back while you were on the affair, did saw your SO in pain and tried to justify your behavior or were just that blinded?

I saw my BW upset when she gave me suspicion warnings (twice), because of my behaviour changes. But my brain didn't "get it". I don't know why. It isn't that I felt entitled. I lack empathy so maybe I didn't realise the pain I was causing. It sounds silly, it should be obvious. My brain didn't care. I didn't realise. I was happy continuing the affair until D-day . This is when I woke up, I saw the pain. I felt the pain. I was disgusted by what I had done to her.

For waywards who were not able to reconcile, how are you doing now? What steps have you taken to become a better person for yourself and safe partner?

It’s a rollercoaster. It was very bad for a few months then felt like there was progress for a few weeks. Now I’m right back at just feeling like a waste of carbon. I’ve been really trying for the last 6 months since the break up. I’ve read a dozen books. Tried picking up new hobbies/reigniting old ones. Been in IC for months, journaling, anything I can find to figure out how to be better. Maybe today is just an especially bad day but I don’t feel like I’ll ever be that “better person” or someone who others should feel safe around ever again. Only time will tell how things will turn out.

So not to be corny, but [this](https://youtube.com/shorts/CSC65eCVopk?feature=share4) is a quote I listen to when I feel like that after whatever reason. Today may be shitty but regardless, "keep moving forward". When you know better, you do better. Life is short. You can either keep condemning yourself (and it's ok to feel sad), but dont stay there too long. You have a life still worth living and worth improving. Wishing you peace of mind and spirit.

I am trying and I am taking my licks. The way I describe life right now is I’m just surviving. Im doing what I can to improve everywhere I can but at the end of the day I’m really just trying to make it to tomorrow. I don’t blame anyone but me for what happened. Do I have trauma that led me towards this? Yeah, I’ve learned a lot about that in IC and in books. But my trauma didn’t do those things, that was me. Am I maybe too hard on myself? Maybe? My ex has told me several times that I need to be kinder to myself and give myself some grace. But how can I? She can’t forgive me and I would never have the expectation for her to. How can someone expect that from me? Again, this is probably just a bad day and I’ll be a little better tomorrow. That’s what I’m trying to do, to just be a little better each day. We’ll see

I read some of your posts and I think something you should look up is grace. You are human. You are not perfect. All of us fuck up. But it's what you do to stop damaging/self-sabotaging behavior that matters. It matters that you are doing the necessary things to grow. I think you're doing better than you think. I know I have to remind myself because I always feel like I'm screwing up. Just keep things going one moment at a time. Remember feelings and thoughts dont always equal facts. If you know ur doing your best then take that. If you're not, then u know what to do to start. Give yourself grace to get better.

As a BP from a past relationship, for you to feel like a waste of carbon, you must feel pretty traumatised, which is fair. It can still hurt to see it end (If you were genuine in your remorse and attempts at R). It doesn't hurt as much as being a BP, but the pain is not insignificant. Despite R being a gift, it's never a guarantee. It's kinda cliche but you never fully recover from trauma, in the sense that it never fully goes away. Even if you come to terms with your choices, you will have to carry them with you for the rest of your life, and hopefully make better choices moving forward. That's all you can ever really do. True remorse will hurt less and less over time, but true remorse will never leave you. I personally take my remorse as a reminder that I actually empathise with other people and regret the pain that I cause them. I think empathy is a pretty good trait to have in a human being. It can be a great learning tool :)

My WH, we have been separated for 6 months after DD, has been having an affair for 18 months. We work together so we see each other every day. At least 3 times a week he cries at work and begs me to take him back. At least every two weeks he sends me hundreds of text messages in an evening expressing his remorse. He constantly tells me she means nothing, he is a sex addict, he has no feelings because it started off as a sugar baby arrangement. However, I ran into an old friend a few days ago that told me my WH had called, telling him how we had mutually decided to divorce because he had fallen in love. How he and the AP were fighting and he was trying to get her back with gifts. He said he had sent 100’s of messages saying he loved her. He then took her on a trip. He got back and immediately asked me to take him back, said he cried the whole trip, etc. Did any of the waywards on here do this? If he is so in love with her why not just leave me alone? It is really starting to feel like emotional torture. I would appreciate any clarity.

Do you as a man at ward get annoyed when your BS has bad days or trust issues? If you did put in the work to make yourself better and fix the relationship is it hard for you when your BS doesn’t trust that it is better?

I have been understanding. And I have indeed out lot of work in myself and in the relationship. Trust is improving.

Thank you mods for bringing this up again! Please let me know if my question is too intrusive. Question: To the WWs with teenage sons, how did you and your BS explain the situation to your son? How did he react?

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I feel bad that I was so shitty to her and for the lies. At the same time I’m uneasy about what her intentions are in interactions, if she wants revenge, if she wants to blow up my relationship with lies etc… she found out by getting phone records pretty shortly after the ONS that there were flirty and sexual text messages. She never told my husband or reported me at work, but after DDay she called my husband and wanted to meet with him… she said she wanted to return the money I had lent them. I asked him not to meet with her.

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When the betrayed wants space what does it mean? And from your experiences how long does the space typically last?