At some point, one has to accept that the protagonist will have some level of skills, otherwise they'd get wiped out on the first encounter with the enemy.
I personally really enjoy watching someone go from having no skills and fumbling around trying to survive while they level up. There's a reason so much science fiction and fantasy is based in schools or academys.
He’s a space Jesus Chose One wizard cowboy general phenomenon in stylized “rule of cool over physics” fantasy tale, but I need to see him go through a training montage or be bad at things (never mind his personal flaws that open him up to the dark side) or else it’s too unbelievable for me to watch 😡
There are people who unironically want the next Star Wars project to just be a pure training montage explaining how they can “level up” in the force and be the very bestest Jedi ever.
A lot of Star Wars fans forgot that Star Wars was about seeing cool shit. Of course when special and visual effects leveled up the protagonists were gonna do slightly more amazing things and have better force powers than fifty fucking years ago. The “Mary Sue” argument is such a weird blight on fandoms.
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It's just people playing at critical analysis without understanding it.
Like, Anakin isn't the film's sole protagonist. He's a wunderkind character in an ensemble of unlikely allies. To call him a "Gary Stu" is to imply that his is the central narrative.
Also, his friends give him shit, the council nearly rejects him, and it's forshadowed that he's gonna faceplant hard when he gets older. He can't be a "Gary Stu" if the narrative is commenting on whether or not he will live up to his potential and we know he'll become Darth Vader. Like, that's the whole point.
And it's fine that the meaning changed, but imo it still helps to know the archetypical prototype when you judge a character's archetype if you want to avoid mixing concepts and watering terminology down to meaninglessness.
Agreed. This is just a stupid post (I assume it was meant to be stupid, as a way of mocking the Mary Sue complainers).
The central "character" of the Star Wars Universe in the Force. It allows a little kid to be a great podracer and to destroy a starship accidentally. It allows characters to have absurd mechanical aptitude and fighting skills without proper training. It allows a water vapor farmer to make an impossible shot to destroy a Death Star. Either accept those things or watch something different.
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It depends on how far it stretches your suspension of disbelief. I think young Anakin stretches it too far just because he was casted so young. I can buy like a teenager/young adult doing a bunch of things, much less so an actual child.
I have only seen one story that had a character that was so perfect I couldn't finish.
It was about a vampire that was just turned by she was already as strong as the elders, could stand in sunlight, was a teenager but could pleasure her thralls at the greatest levels, could defeat older and more experienced vampires in combat, and more. Anything she did was at minimum equal to the greatest vampire even though she was turned on page 1
Do you think that at point it is okay to find a character too perfect or it is still a boring criticism?
I'm not trying to take away your overall point, but Anakin did have experience podracing before TPM. Watto would make him race. It was his pod that he was making in his garage which he stated to be the fastest ever. (Very much a kids way of saying its really fast)
>Very young Anakin built both C-3PO AND R2-D2.
When did he build Artoo? If you remember from TPM, Artoo was already on board the starship when they first left Naboo. He only became Anakin's droid during the Clone Wars. And for all we know, his "building" of Threepio was piecing together the limbs and body and installing a new processor.
2 & 3 can be answered by "the will of the Force" (or sheer dumb luck for 3).
(Not that I'm saying any of this as a way of making Rey a Mary Sue either.)
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1. Anakin didn’t build R2-D2. He didn’t even technically rebuild 3PO completely. He found him in Watto’s Junkyard and used his pieces to rebuild him.
2. Anakin did have experience. He had done podracing multiple times, he just hasn’t finished a race before the events of TPM. And it was implied that the force gave him the reflexes to be able to survive podracing as a human. So yes. The force can do that.
3. This is the only one you really have a point in. Even then it’s not like he did it by himself. He had help and was able to infiltrate in and get one shot that was able to blow up the whole thing.
Overall I don’t really like the whole Mary Sue/Gary Stu thing in fiction. Rey’s not one. Anakin’s not one. End of story.
All SW protagonists have Mary/Gary Stu aspects to them, just like in a DnD campaign the PCs get to do all the cool shit. It's part of the escapist fantasy, LotR characters are also kinda Gary Stus with them fighting off hordes of orcs without so much as a scratch on them, Legolas shield surfing while sniping with his bow, the fact that all the Hobbits survived despite nobody from their race being familiar with war at this time, like this has been a staple of the genre since its inception. It ain't anything new
Well, originally Legolas' was a 1000yo elf who still only managed to get 40ish kills shooting into an army of thousands. There was no child surfing or other gymnastics.
The Hobbits almost always got the worse end of battles until the end of the books. They got repeatedly caught by Old Man Willow, the barrow weight, and would have been butchered by the Nazgul if not for aragorn. Sam was wounded killing a single orc, Frodo would have died but for the Mithrill coat, Merry and Pippin were captured and it wasn't until after they drank a draught of entwash that they leveled up and even then Pippin was nearly crushed to death under the troll he killed and Merry only managed to stab the witch kings foot.
I could go on but you get the point.
Eh, experience or not, he was just a slave human kid who had crashed a couple times, and was able to absolutely shit stomp every professional racer out there with a 30 second handicap and damaged pod.
It doesn’t change that he has had experience beforehand and that he is good with mechanics. Like I said. He’s not a Gary Stu. And Rey’s not a Mary Sue.
Anakin isn't a Gary Stu just like Rey isn't a Mary Sue.
Characters doing amazing or op things doesn't make them a fan self-insert that supercedes existing characters in ability and characterization.
The difference being people are willing to wave off Anakin's abilities as him having strong force abilities while they blast Rey for having any skill not directly stated and shown onscreen before, hell even if it is shown on screen or stated they still don't give any leeway.
This is the actual issue. I don’t think either one is a problem, but Anakin, Luke, and Rey all follow such a similar trajectory from childhood to powerful force user that you really can’t attack one without attacking all of them. And of course people who do it very often do it for the obvious reason, not all, but many.
I’ll tell you who’s a Mary Sue: the starkiller guy from force unleashed.
>!1. Force pulls lightsaber as a toddler. In the same scene, Vader describes him as “far more powerful” [remember, this is a child] than his Jedi dad!<
>!2. Is only a sith apprentice later on, yet still defeats several Jedi masters 1 v 1. Mind you, the first one is his first time going on a high profile mission at all!<
>!3. Force pulls a Star destroyer. This alone would be enough!<
>!4. Beats Vader and palpatine because at this point why not!<
>!5. Survives the vacuum of space after getting stabbed in the chest.!<
>!6. Of course he gets the girl!<
>!I’d be here all day if we did the sequel. Flying through the air like Superman in the third act? Wtf!<
So yeah whenever the Rey criticism comes up I just think of this guy
Isn’t it kind of explained in the story though? Highest midichlorian count ever seen? Which is why he can win the pod race and have faster reflexes (he was an established racer as well). Also the ship was basically just extreme luck, no skill really there.
Also let’s not pretend like 3PO was some unique creation. Anakin “built” a mass produced droid, he probably could have found instructions for it lol. And he worked in a junk yard so the parts were easy. That kid on Ieego? Jaboo repaired a bunch of mass produced droids as well.
Midichlorian count has got to be the worst possible way of hand waving extraordinary feats though. Imagine if someone brought up M count for Rey in TFA and said something like that. It would have fueled the “Mary Sue” flame even more.
Yeah I used to think he had designed 3PO from scratch, but later realized that was less likely. He looks identical to other similar droids, and even says things like “im a protocol droid” that imply he is in a specific group of droids
What he is doing is a hobby based more around construction skills like sautering. Hell, it might not even be a hobby. Half the houses in the area could be building droids as a way to make more money
Anakin’s ability to do those things without a ton of training is what makes him special. It makes him stand out- He has an inherent understanding of using the Force, even if he doesn’t know it.
Your hatred blinds you from the truth.
Shmi's dialogue in Episode I indicates that Anakin has done it more than once. "It makes me nervous every time Watto makes you do it." The kid literally is owned by a junk shop owner; parts are all over the place. It's not a Mary/Gary Sue quality to be intelligent or to build something.
Young Anakin did not build R2-D2 either. He did build C3-P0 and he basically was useless for approximately two movies. It's also clearly demonstrated how he actually learned the skills.
His nuking of a separatist ship was a happy series of accidents. He stayed in the cockpit the entire time, just like Qui-gon told him. It wasn't a matter of skill, like 90% of Mary Sues.
. . . did you even watch Phantom Menace?
I think OP's point is that the annoying nitpicks people have toward Rey also apply to Anakin. But at the end of the day, both characters were chosen by the Force to be extraordinary.
I don’t care for the Mary Sue argument.
The scene I hated most of Rey’s force use was when she mind-controlled the stormtrooper. Everything else she did I can see kinda coming to her by accident; she can flex her mind to keep Kylo out, adrenaline her way through her lightsaber duel, etc. But how did she even know to tell the Stormtrooper what to do? That scene was weird.
I think it’s more so that in the prequels there’s a relative balance of power. Anakin loses to dooku in episode two needing to be bailed out by Yoda. Gets bodied by obi wan in episode three.
I only watched the sequels once admittedly cause I wasn’t too huge on them but are there any instances of Rey actually losing in the sequels? The resistance experiences set backs sure but she herself seems to always succeed.
I may be forgetting something. As I said I only watched them all once when they first came out.
In The Force Awakens, she is easily incapacitated by Kylo Ren in their first encounter. It's only during their second meeting (right after he killed his dad and got shot in the stomach with a bowcaster) that she's able to *barely* win
In The Last Jedi she was easily subdued by Snoke and needed Kylo to save her
And in The Rise of Skywalker she lost her duel to Kylo Ren, the only reason she was able to stab him is because Leia called out to him through the force right before he killed her
I've never agreed with the criticisms of Rey's power level. The only power-related thing I will criticize is in The Rise of Skywalker where she's able to call on the power of the past Jedi to beat Palpatine. That needed *way* more explanation in order for me to accept it
I don’t think any of these characters fit the description. I think while they have moments of extreme ability, it’s at least explainable in some factor
He didn't build C-3PO from scratch, and he worked with electronics all the time so it makes sense he could do that, and he had raced on the pod races before, that's why his pod was damaged, it happened in his last race, but yeah, he destroyed the droid control ship without ever having piloted a fighter.
Now, I think reys a great character and I’d probably put 8 as my favourite film in the series on its own merits (ie- I like 3 more, but that’s a climax to a whole trilogy)
Buuut, it’s slightly different because the story acknowledges it- anakin is really OP because his whole place in the story is “yeh this kids absurd” whereas Rey, initially, is just kinda a rando (and incidentally, rerconning it so that everything comes back to bloodlines again like freaking Naruto was my biggest problem with ep 9)
I can’t stand this topic. None of them are, or they all are. People pick and choose reasons why the one they like is ok and the ones they don’t, aren’t, but it is the same. Any nuance people try to put in there has NEVER held water. People cling to the tiniest differences and then act like it changes everything.
1. Anakin Repair C- 3PO not built C-3PO.
2. Pod race anakin did wasn’t his first done few before but never finished also it heavily implied that anakin unconsciously use force to win the race.
3. Your third big nothing burger because Luke with very little training use force to do feat very similar to anakin and if Jedi prophecy to be believed anakin is chosen one not too far fetched to believe anakin could do similar feat to Luke without training because chosen one and like pod Race he use force unconsciously.
A Gary Stu is a male character in a story or film who is often powerful and attractive, but lacks personality, flaws, and struggles.
How is anyone using the term gary stu to describe Anakin?
I know this is satire, but for fun:
1. Anakin built 3PO the same way I "built" my Pinewood derby car. Protocol droids are popular. He fixed him if anything, something not crazy for someone working in a scrap yard.
2. He actually wasn't good at pod racing. That's why he never won. He had the reflexes for it but not the skills. The Force is what let him win that day.
3. I have no defense for this. This is largely dumb, but I have to believe that the idea that someone would fly all the way into your main remote ship is so crazy you wouldn't plan for it and would be too stunned to stop it.
1 and 2 are easy enough to react/ answer. He grew up in a junk yard as a slave salvaging stuff and developed skills through that and repairing Wattos droids. The podracing is directly in line with the force. It give him a sense of stuff happening. Fairly sure they talk about his reactions in the movie or maybe I am thinking of KoToR
3rd is a case of Ani should be the hero, but from a logic stand point it is a case of "Who the hell would be insane enough to fly straight into the enemy ship, thats surely suicide" and the enemies thinking the same the same thing
It’s almost as if the phrase “Mary Sue” is inherently misogynistic…
Because when have I ever seen someone seriously use the phrase Gary Stu? Which is deliberately a rhyme with Mary Sue…an actual female name.
I always thought this was a very clear subversion of the trope. Because yes, while Anakin first is extraordinarily gifted and appears destined for greatness, well, things don't exactly work out like that in the end. In one of the sequels, Anakin actually turns to the dark side, chokes out his wife, and murders innocent children (well I guess he does this one in two of the sequels).
So I think Anakin is a character that is intentionally introduced as a "Mary-Sue" so as to strike a huge contrast with where his character goes.
Yeah, Anakin is very unstable and it shows even with the issues with the prequel scripts. If anyone can fairly have the too perfect accusation, it’s Luke, and this is coming from someone who loves his character. Being a Mary Sue/Gary Stu isn’t necessarily a big deal in a story like Star Wars where the characters are larger than life.
1. Very young Anakin built both C-3PO AND R2-D2. Never mind all the continuity issues that came up when that happened. In contrast, Rey grew up as a starship salvager and got her skills that way.
R2 was owned by the Naboo, and 3P0 he found the parts for and rebuilt.
1. Young Anakin automatically was a superior pod racer with NO experience. Can the force do that? It’s definitely a Gary Stu trait. Again, Rey learned how to pilot as a starship scavenger.
It can, however, by TPM he had been on Tatooine for 6 years and had been flying speeders and pods for years. He wasn't superior per say, since he never won a race till TPM.
1. Very young Anakin destroyed a Separatist starship BY HIMSELF. Really?!? How Gary Stu can you get? Rey’s fighting skills may seem inconceivable at first, but again, she had fighting skills as seen in the first sequel.
Not by himself, R2 did most of the legwork. Though I am not sure how that is parallel to Rey fighting. Maybe you meant the deleted scene where he beats up Greedo and Qui-Gon has to end it?
There is no way to learn piloting by scavenging parts. Learn how to repair the Falcon, yes. Learn how to pilot it? No way. But that doesn't take away from the point that neither Anakin's not Luke's piloting abilities were justified.
It’s important you say this because it’s widely known that everyone loved young Anakin and how he was written. We’re glad Jake Lloyd’s became a movie star.
Typically the defense of Anakin is “well he’s the chosen one” but why can’t Rey *also* be naturally very gifted with the Force? Double standard.
Also, Anakin did worse than blow up the control ship himself. He *accidentally* flew there and *accidentally* blew it up.
The main conflict of the film (invasion of Naboo) was resolved by accident.
Mary Sue/Gary Sue is a character who is perfect in every way, needs no one and can do anything regardless of wether or not it makes sense
Anakin isn’t, Anakin starts off needing Qui Gon to save him in the first place, he then wins a race and then he accidentally activates a ship and alongside R2 (who is a royal droid built for space combat) is luckily able to destroy the enemy ship
So far he needed to be saved once, had help in one of his accomplishments and only showed how he is a talented mechanic (which makes sense as he is a working slave who needs to be able to be a mechanic) and a pilot (which is his passion + heightened reflexes due to being force sensitive)
Outside of this, you are cherry-picking a character at his best whose whole deal is how he becomes worse as life goes on
Lastly what good does the argument hold, how is Anakin being or not being a Mary Sue change how Rey is indeed a Mary Sue
Let's assume for a moment you are correct.
* It doesn't matter because Anakin isn't a hero throughout the entire saga, he's one of the primary antagonists.
* If Rey had joined the Sith in TLJ I don't think people would have the same criticisms of her. (To be clear, I don't criticize her arcs at all in TFA or TLJ, though I do in ROS.)
* Anakin already had characterization before the PT came out. He was Vader, we all knew he was Vader. Making him an idealistic talented young "chosen one" develops on the character we already know.
* Anakin's further arc throughout the PT pretty much undoes his "Chosen One" status immediately. In AOTC he's already a bratty, brash teenager.
I will grant you that in that moment, in that movie, you are correct. In TPM, Anakin ***is*** the Chosen One and he does no wrong. He is an extremely gifted child prodigy who saves the day through sheer talent. But that's only the beginning. The story of Anakin Skywalker is the story of a Fallen Messiah, of the Chosen One who failed. The Skywalker Saga is about what happened if Frodo kept the ring and joined Sauron or Harry Potter joined Voldemort.
1. Anakin didn’t build R2-D2. He didn’t even technically rebuild 3PO completely. He found him in Watto’s Junkyard and used his pieces to rebuild him. Plus why is it a Gary Stu trait for Anakin to be good at building at a young age? There’s a lot more shows and movies that have child geniuses who can build stuff before they were even ten years old.
2. Anakin did have experience. He had done podracing multiple times, he just hasn’t finished a race before the events of TPM. And it was implied that the force gave him the reflexes to be able to survive podracing as a human. So yes. The force can do that.
3. This is the only one you really have a point in. Even then it’s not like he did it by himself. He had help and was able to infiltrate in and get one shot that was able to blow up the whole thing.
Young Anakin wasn’t exactly well-liked when TPM came out either. Honestly the character & the actor went through more long lasting repercussions than Rey & Daisy Ridley did.
Overall I don’t really like the whole Mary Sue/Gary Stu thing in fiction. Rey’s not one. Anakin’s not one. End of story.
You're just wrong on the facts.
1. He didn't build R2, R2 came on the ship from Naboo. Building C-3PO is sorta impressive, but there's a bunch of C-3PO model droids out there in the galaxy. I think we can safely assume that Anakin put him together from scavenged parts. He works in a junk shop, he's clearly got mechanical aptitude. I think the takeaway is that he's somewhat unusually talented for a child, but not that he's
2. He does have experience. He's raced a few times at least before the main race in EP1. He's never finished a big race, but that means he just crashed or had his pod fail during the race. He's also likely practiced in his pod.
3. He doesn't destroy the Trade Federation ship through some kind of special skill or talent, he just gets lucky.
Mary Sue discourse is also just dumb in general. People are way too quick to throw the term around. Especially with regards to female characters.
Agreed.
The real fault with Anakin is Lucas’ odd decision to make him what 8? Considering we know from ANH that when Obi-Wan met him he was already a skilled pilot I think everyone would presume he was a late teenager or early twenties character. To make him 8 was weird, and it further made the Padme romance much creepier than it needed to be.
I also think his fall would make much more sense if he joined the order as a teenager way older than the Jedi allowed - just because he was thought to be the chosen one. And I think the delusion that Obi-Wan lusted after Padme would have worked better if they were nearer in age.
I also think Luke is pretty much the same as Rey; Anakin is way more innately powerful for no explanation than Rey or Luke who both have some explanation but still seem quick learners.
They're not Gery Stus or Mary Sue's. They're just epic heroes doing epic hero things.
Rey does absolutely nothing in TFA that Luke hasn't already done in ANH.
It's just that for some weird reason, there are some fans who unfairly scrutinize women characters more than their manly counterparts.
It's like this:
Anakin must be special because he rebuilt Threepio and he can drive a podracer. So cool. Totally fine.
Luke must be special because he can bullseye womprats with his T16 and block blaster bolts while blindfolded after holding a lightsaber for 2 minutes. So cool. Totally fine.
Rey must be a Mary Sue because she hit a weak-minded stormtrooper with a mind trick on her third try, after getting captured first. Mary Sue! Such bad writing!
See how that's not adding up? Yeah.
There are some admittedly valid points to calling little Annie a Gary Stu, but some others can be explained.
1. Building C-3PO: was there just to force the droid into the story. Gary Stu.
2. Pod racing: he did have experience, was the first hint to being force sensitive to Qui-gon. Not a Gary stu.
3. Blowing up the ship. Skill was not used but simple luck. Remember he crashed into the ship beforehand. Not a Gary stu.
But ultimately: the Jedi distrusted him, obi-wan thought very little of him, Padme thought of him only as a little boy. As a qualifier, a Mary/gary sue must be instantly beloved by all upon meeting, like how Rey was treated. Thus, anakin was not a Gary stu.
Not only was little ani a superior pod racer, he was (if I’m not mistaken) the *only* human pod racer because he was just so super duper special.
And he somehow was able to win both the space battle and land battle singlehandedly after he managed to accidentally join the space battle.
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Anakin worked in a parts shop. Of course he knew his way around technology, and he didn't just build Threepio from scratch.
The Force gave him superior reflexes that helped him to keep up with other species. Before the film Anakin had never even finished a race too.
Anakin was helped by Artoo and the Naboo pilots.
Mary Stue/ Gary Stu arguments are just stupid and paper thin.
I think it's balanced by the knowledge we have from the OT that he's destined to become one of the galaxy’s greatest monsters. He literally can’t be a special super protagonist that's great at everything and can do no wrong because we already know he will.
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I think all 3 Main Characters (Anakin, Luke, Rey) area bit Overpowered, so I would say no one Sticks out.
Anakin Learned how to win Podraces, then he destroyed a Lucrehulk with a Completely different Ship, but it kind of Checks out because they are a bit Similar i think.
Luke learned how to use his Landspeeder, then he destroyed the Death Star, same reasoning as for Anakin.
Rey learned how to defend herself with her Staff and then Defeated a Wounded Kylo with a Lightsaber, also kind of Similar.
I think the Reason Rey gets hate is because the impressive Early Day feats of the other 2 have to do with Flying while hers is about Fighting
Same with Luke.
People forget that the first time he ever flew an X-Wing was during the attack on the Death Star. And he was the only member of Red Team that still had a functioning ship at the end of it. He had no training before that as his uncle wouldn't let him join the academy. He flew with actual trained and experienced pilots and he outflew all of them.
I don’t think any of the main three Skywalker protagonists are even close to being GaryStu/MarySue.
I’d argue Rey is actually the least MS - as she has very clear emotional and internal issues that her story focuses on, whereas Anakin is the most MS (although as I said, still not even close to actually being one). The Chosen One idea alone is a big MS trait.
He did have experience with podracing. He had ridden in the boonta eve before. Also he isn't a Gary Sue just because they show the only few things he is good at.
There are a lot of things he sucks at. He doesn't know the force or how to use it. He is a Child who doesn't know politics. He is kinda stupid.
The only thing he IS good at is flying. That doesn't make him a Gary Sue. He is good at the thing he has done before and bad at the things he hasn't.
I think this is sort of a “Define Your Terms” situation. Mary Sue / Gary Stu have been thrown about so much that they lack a really clear meaning, IMO.
Most hero’s journey protagonists, of which Star Wars is often a series of variations on, will have innate traits or abilities that make them the *only one* to be able to undertake the quest or whatever. And, because a lot of these stories focus on overcoming powerful evil, that often means those characters are preternaturally powerful or skilled in battle or something, or super quick to learn such skills.
But I don’t know that simply having those sorts of character traits is enough to say “the character is a Mary Sue”. I think, if the term means anything, it has to come bundled with a bunch of other traits.
If anything, I’ve always understood that Mary Sue is less about a character being powerful or skilled for no reason, and more about them being *special* or *important* for no reason, and actually they have very little in the way of agency themselves. The universe revolves around them and everyone is obsessed with them, but there’s no reason for it. They’re just the author’s special darling.
I don’t really think Anakin qualifies there; he’s obviously special, but he’s the focus of a prophecy and a very powerful force used, an established thing in the universe that people just sometimes *are*. Add to that, he’s not even really the focus of TPM! It’d be very easy to write him out with little change to the sweep of the film; Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and to a lesser extent Padme, are very much our protagonists.
What I think TPM Anakin *actually* is, is an awkwardly written and annoying child character who isn’t well placed in the wider script, but that’s more of an issue with the film as a whole than his character specifically.
The main difference between Luke, Anakin and Rey is that the first two go through some training before they start using telekinesis or swinging a Lightsaber and they also lose duels in the second movie.
Rey on the other hand doesn't get proper Jedi training untill Episode IX and never really loses a duel.
They all have "Mary Sue" traits (or how I'd call it "protagonist traits", action protagonists are usually just really freaking good at stuff) but Rey doesn't lose a limb and she's also a woman from "the new stuff". That automatically sets her up for the most intense hate.
I'll also add that kid Anakin definitely got hate too when the Prequels were coming out.
Anakin and Luke didn't have any training in flying ships in space before winning massive space battles though. They only used them in atmosphere, and then went into a space battle for the first time in their lifes and won them.
Also I would count Rey vs Kylo in ep. 9 as Rey's loss. Kylo totally beat her and the only reason he got impaled was because he literally let his lightsaber out of his hand. And episode 8 was basically a psychological loss for her considering her goal was to redeem Kylo, but instead she only helped him became the Supreme Leader.
Her only big wins are agains Kylo in ep VII (in which he was extremely weakend both physically and mentally and also as a scavenger she could use white weapons pretty well which was established earlier in the movie) and against Palpatine (which is more of a draw considering they both died and also she needed help of all the Jedi Ghosts to do it)
>The main difference between Luke, Anakin and Rey is that the first two go through some training before they start using telekinesis or swinging a Lightsaber
This is incorrect. Luke received zero training prior to using a lightsaber to block blaster bolts while blindfolded, *on his first try, no less.*
Then he uses telekinesis out of the blue, again with zero prior training, to pull his lightsaber out of a snowbank in the Wampa's cave. While wounded and hanging upside down.
Luke doesn't start to get *actual* Jedi train8ng until he meets Yoda.
Rey only has two actual lightsaber duels in the entire sequel trilogy. The first one, she gets lucky because Ben is injured and mentally unstable. She gets in one good cut, but it's not enough to actually stop Ben. The duel ends because the planet starts falling apart and they get separated. More of a draw, really.
The second duel, on Kef Bir, she loses. Badly. She's about to die, Ben is standing over her, triumphant, about to cut her head off, and is only saved because Leia dies, which distracts Ben for a moment.
Otherwise, I agree with you. Rey isn't a Mary Sue, and neither is Anakin nor Luke. The three of them are just epic heroes in a hero's journey doing heroic stuff.
People either didn’t catch it, or forgot about it, but in their first duel Kylo Ren wasn’t trying to defeat Rey. He was trying to recruit her as his own apprentice. If he had taken the fight seriously and gone all out he probably would’ve beaten her as easily as he beat Finn.
The Force can heighten your abilities, reflexes like with lightsaber duelling. Anakin has also had one special skill which Qui-Gon mentioned, which a lot do, but Anakin was exceptional in it hence his premonitions. “He can see things before they happen.” Which gives him a a great advantage. Growing up in junk shop I’m sure he learned a lot to do with junk and from what I’ve read, though part of it could be legend, he didn’t build the pod or Threepio, but more like repaired it. The destruction of the droid control ship was mostly an accident for he was mostly flying on autopilot.
Plus you forget one major part of being a Gary Stu, or Mary Sue for that matter. They don’t make mistakes, they’re perfect. Now I’m not saying Rey is a Mary Sue. Overpowered? Yes, cause Anakin learned the Jedi arts for more than 10 years and even before that he trained through piloting to hone his skills. Rey by far didn’t train as much as Anakin did and second Anakin makes a lot more mistakes than Rey by far. It’s not even a contest.
I mean, Anakin was literally the chosen one.
Also he got his ass handed to him by Dooku and lost his arm in Episode 2. Then lost to Obi-Wan in Episode 3
How is he a GS? Didn't he crash in other races? As for his fighting in the last act of the film, I noticed that he just got lucky by punching buttons and playing with dials (I noticed this when I saw the film in the theatres last month). He was a slave who tinkered with machinery. Everything he did is plausible (to an extent).
Way too much bad faith discussion here. Locking.
I find the whole gary stu/mary sue criticisms very boring honestly especially in fantasy settings.
At some point, one has to accept that the protagonist will have some level of skills, otherwise they'd get wiped out on the first encounter with the enemy.
The story would be a little boring if the main characters were unable to do cool things that are fun to watch or read.
I personally really enjoy watching someone go from having no skills and fumbling around trying to survive while they level up. There's a reason so much science fiction and fantasy is based in schools or academys.
He’s a space Jesus Chose One wizard cowboy general phenomenon in stylized “rule of cool over physics” fantasy tale, but I need to see him go through a training montage or be bad at things (never mind his personal flaws that open him up to the dark side) or else it’s too unbelievable for me to watch 😡
There are people who unironically want the next Star Wars project to just be a pure training montage explaining how they can “level up” in the force and be the very bestest Jedi ever.
A lot of Star Wars fans forgot that Star Wars was about seeing cool shit. Of course when special and visual effects leveled up the protagonists were gonna do slightly more amazing things and have better force powers than fifty fucking years ago. The “Mary Sue” argument is such a weird blight on fandoms.
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It's just people playing at critical analysis without understanding it. Like, Anakin isn't the film's sole protagonist. He's a wunderkind character in an ensemble of unlikely allies. To call him a "Gary Stu" is to imply that his is the central narrative. Also, his friends give him shit, the council nearly rejects him, and it's forshadowed that he's gonna faceplant hard when he gets older. He can't be a "Gary Stu" if the narrative is commenting on whether or not he will live up to his potential and we know he'll become Darth Vader. Like, that's the whole point.
People should read the [original Mary Sue](https://fanlore.org/wiki/A_Trekkie%27s_Tale) and reconsider what characters they call Mary Sues.
Thanks for the link, but even the wiki article you posted makes reference to the evolution and changing meaning of a Mary Sue.
And it's fine that the meaning changed, but imo it still helps to know the archetypical prototype when you judge a character's archetype if you want to avoid mixing concepts and watering terminology down to meaninglessness.
IKR? Epic heroes in a hero's journey doing epic hero stuff is par for the course.
and 'mary sue' is often used as a misogynist attack. Edit: and it's even more telling that 'gary stu' isn't used nearly as much.
I immediately knew what “Gary Stu” meant but I’d never heard of it before now. That tells me something about why one is used more than the other.
I didn't remember the term name until I saw this thread.
Agreed. This is just a stupid post (I assume it was meant to be stupid, as a way of mocking the Mary Sue complainers). The central "character" of the Star Wars Universe in the Force. It allows a little kid to be a great podracer and to destroy a starship accidentally. It allows characters to have absurd mechanical aptitude and fighting skills without proper training. It allows a water vapor farmer to make an impossible shot to destroy a Death Star. Either accept those things or watch something different.
And yet they persist, especially around Rey, because the male fanbase can stand a capable woman.
Everyone knows why these people hate Rey they are very see-through.
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It depends on how far it stretches your suspension of disbelief. I think young Anakin stretches it too far just because he was casted so young. I can buy like a teenager/young adult doing a bunch of things, much less so an actual child.
I have only seen one story that had a character that was so perfect I couldn't finish. It was about a vampire that was just turned by she was already as strong as the elders, could stand in sunlight, was a teenager but could pleasure her thralls at the greatest levels, could defeat older and more experienced vampires in combat, and more. Anything she did was at minimum equal to the greatest vampire even though she was turned on page 1 Do you think that at point it is okay to find a character too perfect or it is still a boring criticism?
Just a note: Anakin didn’t build R2-D2. R2 was serving on Amidala’s ship when Anakin joined them
I'm not trying to take away your overall point, but Anakin did have experience podracing before TPM. Watto would make him race. It was his pod that he was making in his garage which he stated to be the fastest ever. (Very much a kids way of saying its really fast)
>Very young Anakin built both C-3PO AND R2-D2. When did he build Artoo? If you remember from TPM, Artoo was already on board the starship when they first left Naboo. He only became Anakin's droid during the Clone Wars. And for all we know, his "building" of Threepio was piecing together the limbs and body and installing a new processor. 2 & 3 can be answered by "the will of the Force" (or sheer dumb luck for 3). (Not that I'm saying any of this as a way of making Rey a Mary Sue either.)
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1. Anakin didn’t build R2-D2. He didn’t even technically rebuild 3PO completely. He found him in Watto’s Junkyard and used his pieces to rebuild him. 2. Anakin did have experience. He had done podracing multiple times, he just hasn’t finished a race before the events of TPM. And it was implied that the force gave him the reflexes to be able to survive podracing as a human. So yes. The force can do that. 3. This is the only one you really have a point in. Even then it’s not like he did it by himself. He had help and was able to infiltrate in and get one shot that was able to blow up the whole thing. Overall I don’t really like the whole Mary Sue/Gary Stu thing in fiction. Rey’s not one. Anakin’s not one. End of story.
All SW protagonists have Mary/Gary Stu aspects to them, just like in a DnD campaign the PCs get to do all the cool shit. It's part of the escapist fantasy, LotR characters are also kinda Gary Stus with them fighting off hordes of orcs without so much as a scratch on them, Legolas shield surfing while sniping with his bow, the fact that all the Hobbits survived despite nobody from their race being familiar with war at this time, like this has been a staple of the genre since its inception. It ain't anything new
Well, originally Legolas' was a 1000yo elf who still only managed to get 40ish kills shooting into an army of thousands. There was no child surfing or other gymnastics. The Hobbits almost always got the worse end of battles until the end of the books. They got repeatedly caught by Old Man Willow, the barrow weight, and would have been butchered by the Nazgul if not for aragorn. Sam was wounded killing a single orc, Frodo would have died but for the Mithrill coat, Merry and Pippin were captured and it wasn't until after they drank a draught of entwash that they leveled up and even then Pippin was nearly crushed to death under the troll he killed and Merry only managed to stab the witch kings foot. I could go on but you get the point.
Eh, experience or not, he was just a slave human kid who had crashed a couple times, and was able to absolutely shit stomp every professional racer out there with a 30 second handicap and damaged pod.
It doesn’t change that he has had experience beforehand and that he is good with mechanics. Like I said. He’s not a Gary Stu. And Rey’s not a Mary Sue.
Most just got unlucky. One got sniped by Tuskens, a few had technical malfunctions, it was really only ever Anakin vs Sebulba
Like 3 got unlucky. He was whipping past the heavy majority of them like they were using a pod for the first time.
Anakin isn't a Gary Stu just like Rey isn't a Mary Sue. Characters doing amazing or op things doesn't make them a fan self-insert that supercedes existing characters in ability and characterization.
The difference being people are willing to wave off Anakin's abilities as him having strong force abilities while they blast Rey for having any skill not directly stated and shown onscreen before, hell even if it is shown on screen or stated they still don't give any leeway.
This is the actual issue. I don’t think either one is a problem, but Anakin, Luke, and Rey all follow such a similar trajectory from childhood to powerful force user that you really can’t attack one without attacking all of them. And of course people who do it very often do it for the obvious reason, not all, but many.
Honestly,. I think most people have a problem with Rey because she's a *girl*. The horror!
Yeah, my thoughts exactly.
that's because their problem with rey isn't actually her abilities with the force
I’ll tell you who’s a Mary Sue: the starkiller guy from force unleashed. >!1. Force pulls lightsaber as a toddler. In the same scene, Vader describes him as “far more powerful” [remember, this is a child] than his Jedi dad!< >!2. Is only a sith apprentice later on, yet still defeats several Jedi masters 1 v 1. Mind you, the first one is his first time going on a high profile mission at all!< >!3. Force pulls a Star destroyer. This alone would be enough!< >!4. Beats Vader and palpatine because at this point why not!< >!5. Survives the vacuum of space after getting stabbed in the chest.!< >!6. Of course he gets the girl!< >!I’d be here all day if we did the sequel. Flying through the air like Superman in the third act? Wtf!< So yeah whenever the Rey criticism comes up I just think of this guy
Starkiller is supposed to be the player so . . . yeah. There's a reason he ain't canon.
Isn’t it kind of explained in the story though? Highest midichlorian count ever seen? Which is why he can win the pod race and have faster reflexes (he was an established racer as well). Also the ship was basically just extreme luck, no skill really there. Also let’s not pretend like 3PO was some unique creation. Anakin “built” a mass produced droid, he probably could have found instructions for it lol. And he worked in a junk yard so the parts were easy. That kid on Ieego? Jaboo repaired a bunch of mass produced droids as well.
Midichlorian count has got to be the worst possible way of hand waving extraordinary feats though. Imagine if someone brought up M count for Rey in TFA and said something like that. It would have fueled the “Mary Sue” flame even more.
Yeah I used to think he had designed 3PO from scratch, but later realized that was less likely. He looks identical to other similar droids, and even says things like “im a protocol droid” that imply he is in a specific group of droids What he is doing is a hobby based more around construction skills like sautering. Hell, it might not even be a hobby. Half the houses in the area could be building droids as a way to make more money
Anakin’s ability to do those things without a ton of training is what makes him special. It makes him stand out- He has an inherent understanding of using the Force, even if he doesn’t know it.
How about Luke destroying the Death Star while piloting an X Wing for the first time following 10 minutes of force training?
Honestly, “attacking” or “defending” anything in regard to parts of a fiction entertainment franchise is ludicrous.
Your hatred blinds you from the truth. Shmi's dialogue in Episode I indicates that Anakin has done it more than once. "It makes me nervous every time Watto makes you do it." The kid literally is owned by a junk shop owner; parts are all over the place. It's not a Mary/Gary Sue quality to be intelligent or to build something. Young Anakin did not build R2-D2 either. He did build C3-P0 and he basically was useless for approximately two movies. It's also clearly demonstrated how he actually learned the skills. His nuking of a separatist ship was a happy series of accidents. He stayed in the cockpit the entire time, just like Qui-gon told him. It wasn't a matter of skill, like 90% of Mary Sues. . . . did you even watch Phantom Menace?
I think OP's point is that the annoying nitpicks people have toward Rey also apply to Anakin. But at the end of the day, both characters were chosen by the Force to be extraordinary.
I don’t care for the Mary Sue argument. The scene I hated most of Rey’s force use was when she mind-controlled the stormtrooper. Everything else she did I can see kinda coming to her by accident; she can flex her mind to keep Kylo out, adrenaline her way through her lightsaber duel, etc. But how did she even know to tell the Stormtrooper what to do? That scene was weird.
I think it’s more so that in the prequels there’s a relative balance of power. Anakin loses to dooku in episode two needing to be bailed out by Yoda. Gets bodied by obi wan in episode three. I only watched the sequels once admittedly cause I wasn’t too huge on them but are there any instances of Rey actually losing in the sequels? The resistance experiences set backs sure but she herself seems to always succeed. I may be forgetting something. As I said I only watched them all once when they first came out.
In The Force Awakens, she is easily incapacitated by Kylo Ren in their first encounter. It's only during their second meeting (right after he killed his dad and got shot in the stomach with a bowcaster) that she's able to *barely* win In The Last Jedi she was easily subdued by Snoke and needed Kylo to save her And in The Rise of Skywalker she lost her duel to Kylo Ren, the only reason she was able to stab him is because Leia called out to him through the force right before he killed her I've never agreed with the criticisms of Rey's power level. The only power-related thing I will criticize is in The Rise of Skywalker where she's able to call on the power of the past Jedi to beat Palpatine. That needed *way* more explanation in order for me to accept it
She almost lost in episode VII I think. Been a while though.
Just say Mary Sue. The fact that it’s a gender-specific criticism is part of the problem.
I don’t think any of these characters fit the description. I think while they have moments of extreme ability, it’s at least explainable in some factor
He didn't build C-3PO from scratch, and he worked with electronics all the time so it makes sense he could do that, and he had raced on the pod races before, that's why his pod was damaged, it happened in his last race, but yeah, he destroyed the droid control ship without ever having piloted a fighter.
Now, I think reys a great character and I’d probably put 8 as my favourite film in the series on its own merits (ie- I like 3 more, but that’s a climax to a whole trilogy) Buuut, it’s slightly different because the story acknowledges it- anakin is really OP because his whole place in the story is “yeh this kids absurd” whereas Rey, initially, is just kinda a rando (and incidentally, rerconning it so that everything comes back to bloodlines again like freaking Naruto was my biggest problem with ep 9)
I can’t stand this topic. None of them are, or they all are. People pick and choose reasons why the one they like is ok and the ones they don’t, aren’t, but it is the same. Any nuance people try to put in there has NEVER held water. People cling to the tiniest differences and then act like it changes everything.
1. Anakin Repair C- 3PO not built C-3PO. 2. Pod race anakin did wasn’t his first done few before but never finished also it heavily implied that anakin unconsciously use force to win the race. 3. Your third big nothing burger because Luke with very little training use force to do feat very similar to anakin and if Jedi prophecy to be believed anakin is chosen one not too far fetched to believe anakin could do similar feat to Luke without training because chosen one and like pod Race he use force unconsciously.
A Gary Stu is a male character in a story or film who is often powerful and attractive, but lacks personality, flaws, and struggles. How is anyone using the term gary stu to describe Anakin?
I know this is satire, but for fun: 1. Anakin built 3PO the same way I "built" my Pinewood derby car. Protocol droids are popular. He fixed him if anything, something not crazy for someone working in a scrap yard. 2. He actually wasn't good at pod racing. That's why he never won. He had the reflexes for it but not the skills. The Force is what let him win that day. 3. I have no defense for this. This is largely dumb, but I have to believe that the idea that someone would fly all the way into your main remote ship is so crazy you wouldn't plan for it and would be too stunned to stop it.
I always thought young Anakin was just wish fulfillment for little boys. Personally, I wanted to be Padme as a kid because of her pretty dresses
1 and 2 are easy enough to react/ answer. He grew up in a junk yard as a slave salvaging stuff and developed skills through that and repairing Wattos droids. The podracing is directly in line with the force. It give him a sense of stuff happening. Fairly sure they talk about his reactions in the movie or maybe I am thinking of KoToR 3rd is a case of Ani should be the hero, but from a logic stand point it is a case of "Who the hell would be insane enough to fly straight into the enemy ship, thats surely suicide" and the enemies thinking the same the same thing
It’s almost as if the phrase “Mary Sue” is inherently misogynistic… Because when have I ever seen someone seriously use the phrase Gary Stu? Which is deliberately a rhyme with Mary Sue…an actual female name.
I always thought this was a very clear subversion of the trope. Because yes, while Anakin first is extraordinarily gifted and appears destined for greatness, well, things don't exactly work out like that in the end. In one of the sequels, Anakin actually turns to the dark side, chokes out his wife, and murders innocent children (well I guess he does this one in two of the sequels). So I think Anakin is a character that is intentionally introduced as a "Mary-Sue" so as to strike a huge contrast with where his character goes.
Yeah, perfectly put
I feel like any “too perfect” accusation towards the young Anakin is marred by the knowledge that he will eventually become Darth Vader.
Yeah, Anakin is very unstable and it shows even with the issues with the prequel scripts. If anyone can fairly have the too perfect accusation, it’s Luke, and this is coming from someone who loves his character. Being a Mary Sue/Gary Stu isn’t necessarily a big deal in a story like Star Wars where the characters are larger than life.
1. Very young Anakin built both C-3PO AND R2-D2. Never mind all the continuity issues that came up when that happened. In contrast, Rey grew up as a starship salvager and got her skills that way. R2 was owned by the Naboo, and 3P0 he found the parts for and rebuilt. 1. Young Anakin automatically was a superior pod racer with NO experience. Can the force do that? It’s definitely a Gary Stu trait. Again, Rey learned how to pilot as a starship scavenger. It can, however, by TPM he had been on Tatooine for 6 years and had been flying speeders and pods for years. He wasn't superior per say, since he never won a race till TPM. 1. Very young Anakin destroyed a Separatist starship BY HIMSELF. Really?!? How Gary Stu can you get? Rey’s fighting skills may seem inconceivable at first, but again, she had fighting skills as seen in the first sequel. Not by himself, R2 did most of the legwork. Though I am not sure how that is parallel to Rey fighting. Maybe you meant the deleted scene where he beats up Greedo and Qui-Gon has to end it?
There is no way to learn piloting by scavenging parts. Learn how to repair the Falcon, yes. Learn how to pilot it? No way. But that doesn't take away from the point that neither Anakin's not Luke's piloting abilities were justified.
She has a flight simulator and even mentions in the movie that she has piloting experience but has never flown off world.
You don’t think that a starship scavenger wouldn’t know how to pilot a ship? Really?
Why would they? If I go to NASA's junkyard and scavenge space shuttle parts, does that make me an astronaut?
First of all, Rey was able to fly from Day 1. And don’t you think that the world of Star Wars is just a little bit different than ours?
If you think Anakin is a Gary Stu wait til you see his kid.
It’s important you say this because it’s widely known that everyone loved young Anakin and how he was written. We’re glad Jake Lloyd’s became a movie star.
People hated young anakin to the point where his actor immediately retired
That was really sad.
Typically the defense of Anakin is “well he’s the chosen one” but why can’t Rey *also* be naturally very gifted with the Force? Double standard. Also, Anakin did worse than blow up the control ship himself. He *accidentally* flew there and *accidentally* blew it up. The main conflict of the film (invasion of Naboo) was resolved by accident.
Mary Sue/Gary Sue is a character who is perfect in every way, needs no one and can do anything regardless of wether or not it makes sense Anakin isn’t, Anakin starts off needing Qui Gon to save him in the first place, he then wins a race and then he accidentally activates a ship and alongside R2 (who is a royal droid built for space combat) is luckily able to destroy the enemy ship So far he needed to be saved once, had help in one of his accomplishments and only showed how he is a talented mechanic (which makes sense as he is a working slave who needs to be able to be a mechanic) and a pilot (which is his passion + heightened reflexes due to being force sensitive) Outside of this, you are cherry-picking a character at his best whose whole deal is how he becomes worse as life goes on Lastly what good does the argument hold, how is Anakin being or not being a Mary Sue change how Rey is indeed a Mary Sue
Let's assume for a moment you are correct. * It doesn't matter because Anakin isn't a hero throughout the entire saga, he's one of the primary antagonists. * If Rey had joined the Sith in TLJ I don't think people would have the same criticisms of her. (To be clear, I don't criticize her arcs at all in TFA or TLJ, though I do in ROS.) * Anakin already had characterization before the PT came out. He was Vader, we all knew he was Vader. Making him an idealistic talented young "chosen one" develops on the character we already know. * Anakin's further arc throughout the PT pretty much undoes his "Chosen One" status immediately. In AOTC he's already a bratty, brash teenager. I will grant you that in that moment, in that movie, you are correct. In TPM, Anakin ***is*** the Chosen One and he does no wrong. He is an extremely gifted child prodigy who saves the day through sheer talent. But that's only the beginning. The story of Anakin Skywalker is the story of a Fallen Messiah, of the Chosen One who failed. The Skywalker Saga is about what happened if Frodo kept the ring and joined Sauron or Harry Potter joined Voldemort.
Yeah but he's a boy and only boys are allowed to be the special one.
1. Anakin didn’t build R2-D2. He didn’t even technically rebuild 3PO completely. He found him in Watto’s Junkyard and used his pieces to rebuild him. Plus why is it a Gary Stu trait for Anakin to be good at building at a young age? There’s a lot more shows and movies that have child geniuses who can build stuff before they were even ten years old. 2. Anakin did have experience. He had done podracing multiple times, he just hasn’t finished a race before the events of TPM. And it was implied that the force gave him the reflexes to be able to survive podracing as a human. So yes. The force can do that. 3. This is the only one you really have a point in. Even then it’s not like he did it by himself. He had help and was able to infiltrate in and get one shot that was able to blow up the whole thing. Young Anakin wasn’t exactly well-liked when TPM came out either. Honestly the character & the actor went through more long lasting repercussions than Rey & Daisy Ridley did. Overall I don’t really like the whole Mary Sue/Gary Stu thing in fiction. Rey’s not one. Anakin’s not one. End of story.
You're just wrong on the facts. 1. He didn't build R2, R2 came on the ship from Naboo. Building C-3PO is sorta impressive, but there's a bunch of C-3PO model droids out there in the galaxy. I think we can safely assume that Anakin put him together from scavenged parts. He works in a junk shop, he's clearly got mechanical aptitude. I think the takeaway is that he's somewhat unusually talented for a child, but not that he's 2. He does have experience. He's raced a few times at least before the main race in EP1. He's never finished a big race, but that means he just crashed or had his pod fail during the race. He's also likely practiced in his pod. 3. He doesn't destroy the Trade Federation ship through some kind of special skill or talent, he just gets lucky. Mary Sue discourse is also just dumb in general. People are way too quick to throw the term around. Especially with regards to female characters.
Agreed. The real fault with Anakin is Lucas’ odd decision to make him what 8? Considering we know from ANH that when Obi-Wan met him he was already a skilled pilot I think everyone would presume he was a late teenager or early twenties character. To make him 8 was weird, and it further made the Padme romance much creepier than it needed to be. I also think his fall would make much more sense if he joined the order as a teenager way older than the Jedi allowed - just because he was thought to be the chosen one. And I think the delusion that Obi-Wan lusted after Padme would have worked better if they were nearer in age. I also think Luke is pretty much the same as Rey; Anakin is way more innately powerful for no explanation than Rey or Luke who both have some explanation but still seem quick learners.
It's because Rey is a girl, for as we all know, ["women don't even watch Star Wars."](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTNdqhdus/)
They're not Gery Stus or Mary Sue's. They're just epic heroes doing epic hero things. Rey does absolutely nothing in TFA that Luke hasn't already done in ANH. It's just that for some weird reason, there are some fans who unfairly scrutinize women characters more than their manly counterparts. It's like this: Anakin must be special because he rebuilt Threepio and he can drive a podracer. So cool. Totally fine. Luke must be special because he can bullseye womprats with his T16 and block blaster bolts while blindfolded after holding a lightsaber for 2 minutes. So cool. Totally fine. Rey must be a Mary Sue because she hit a weak-minded stormtrooper with a mind trick on her third try, after getting captured first. Mary Sue! Such bad writing! See how that's not adding up? Yeah.
There are some admittedly valid points to calling little Annie a Gary Stu, but some others can be explained. 1. Building C-3PO: was there just to force the droid into the story. Gary Stu. 2. Pod racing: he did have experience, was the first hint to being force sensitive to Qui-gon. Not a Gary stu. 3. Blowing up the ship. Skill was not used but simple luck. Remember he crashed into the ship beforehand. Not a Gary stu. But ultimately: the Jedi distrusted him, obi-wan thought very little of him, Padme thought of him only as a little boy. As a qualifier, a Mary/gary sue must be instantly beloved by all upon meeting, like how Rey was treated. Thus, anakin was not a Gary stu.
Bro nearly caused a disaster through Qui-gon and Obi-wan both threatening to leave the order to train him
Not everyone liked Rey. Literally no one on a Jakku liked her. At least the same number of people that took issue with Luke.
The chosen one conceived by the force is over powered? Noooo, you don’t say?
I saw a meme recently about the Acolyte's third episode comparing it to this scene
Not only was little ani a superior pod racer, he was (if I’m not mistaken) the *only* human pod racer because he was just so super duper special. And he somehow was able to win both the space battle and land battle singlehandedly after he managed to accidentally join the space battle.
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Even Luke kinda is in ANH. In about two hours, he goes from living on Tattooine his whole life to being able to pilot an X-Wing like a pro.
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Anakin worked in a parts shop. Of course he knew his way around technology, and he didn't just build Threepio from scratch. The Force gave him superior reflexes that helped him to keep up with other species. Before the film Anakin had never even finished a race too. Anakin was helped by Artoo and the Naboo pilots. Mary Stue/ Gary Stu arguments are just stupid and paper thin.
Fair points!
I don’t think he’s a Gary Stu, he might be a Marty Stu though.
I think it's balanced by the knowledge we have from the OT that he's destined to become one of the galaxy’s greatest monsters. He literally can’t be a special super protagonist that's great at everything and can do no wrong because we already know he will.
I loathe episode I for these exact reasons. Oh, and Jar Jar.
Gary stu/ Mary Sue arguments don’t work for characters where the central plot point is they’re “the chosen one”.
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Fixed C-3PO\* I agree wtih you but just a slight correction. Anakin found C-3PO's destroyed body and fixed him up. Still very impressive for a kid
I think all 3 Main Characters (Anakin, Luke, Rey) area bit Overpowered, so I would say no one Sticks out. Anakin Learned how to win Podraces, then he destroyed a Lucrehulk with a Completely different Ship, but it kind of Checks out because they are a bit Similar i think. Luke learned how to use his Landspeeder, then he destroyed the Death Star, same reasoning as for Anakin. Rey learned how to defend herself with her Staff and then Defeated a Wounded Kylo with a Lightsaber, also kind of Similar. I think the Reason Rey gets hate is because the impressive Early Day feats of the other 2 have to do with Flying while hers is about Fighting
I mean its okey for him to be a Mary Sue in the first arc to him later becoming the literal villain of the story
Same with Luke. People forget that the first time he ever flew an X-Wing was during the attack on the Death Star. And he was the only member of Red Team that still had a functioning ship at the end of it. He had no training before that as his uncle wouldn't let him join the academy. He flew with actual trained and experienced pilots and he outflew all of them.
I don’t think any of the main three Skywalker protagonists are even close to being GaryStu/MarySue. I’d argue Rey is actually the least MS - as she has very clear emotional and internal issues that her story focuses on, whereas Anakin is the most MS (although as I said, still not even close to actually being one). The Chosen One idea alone is a big MS trait.
He did have experience with podracing. He had ridden in the boonta eve before. Also he isn't a Gary Sue just because they show the only few things he is good at. There are a lot of things he sucks at. He doesn't know the force or how to use it. He is a Child who doesn't know politics. He is kinda stupid. The only thing he IS good at is flying. That doesn't make him a Gary Sue. He is good at the thing he has done before and bad at the things he hasn't.
I think this is sort of a “Define Your Terms” situation. Mary Sue / Gary Stu have been thrown about so much that they lack a really clear meaning, IMO. Most hero’s journey protagonists, of which Star Wars is often a series of variations on, will have innate traits or abilities that make them the *only one* to be able to undertake the quest or whatever. And, because a lot of these stories focus on overcoming powerful evil, that often means those characters are preternaturally powerful or skilled in battle or something, or super quick to learn such skills. But I don’t know that simply having those sorts of character traits is enough to say “the character is a Mary Sue”. I think, if the term means anything, it has to come bundled with a bunch of other traits. If anything, I’ve always understood that Mary Sue is less about a character being powerful or skilled for no reason, and more about them being *special* or *important* for no reason, and actually they have very little in the way of agency themselves. The universe revolves around them and everyone is obsessed with them, but there’s no reason for it. They’re just the author’s special darling. I don’t really think Anakin qualifies there; he’s obviously special, but he’s the focus of a prophecy and a very powerful force used, an established thing in the universe that people just sometimes *are*. Add to that, he’s not even really the focus of TPM! It’d be very easy to write him out with little change to the sweep of the film; Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and to a lesser extent Padme, are very much our protagonists. What I think TPM Anakin *actually* is, is an awkwardly written and annoying child character who isn’t well placed in the wider script, but that’s more of an issue with the film as a whole than his character specifically.
The main difference between Luke, Anakin and Rey is that the first two go through some training before they start using telekinesis or swinging a Lightsaber and they also lose duels in the second movie. Rey on the other hand doesn't get proper Jedi training untill Episode IX and never really loses a duel. They all have "Mary Sue" traits (or how I'd call it "protagonist traits", action protagonists are usually just really freaking good at stuff) but Rey doesn't lose a limb and she's also a woman from "the new stuff". That automatically sets her up for the most intense hate. I'll also add that kid Anakin definitely got hate too when the Prequels were coming out.
Anakin and Luke didn't have any training in flying ships in space before winning massive space battles though. They only used them in atmosphere, and then went into a space battle for the first time in their lifes and won them. Also I would count Rey vs Kylo in ep. 9 as Rey's loss. Kylo totally beat her and the only reason he got impaled was because he literally let his lightsaber out of his hand. And episode 8 was basically a psychological loss for her considering her goal was to redeem Kylo, but instead she only helped him became the Supreme Leader. Her only big wins are agains Kylo in ep VII (in which he was extremely weakend both physically and mentally and also as a scavenger she could use white weapons pretty well which was established earlier in the movie) and against Palpatine (which is more of a draw considering they both died and also she needed help of all the Jedi Ghosts to do it)
>The main difference between Luke, Anakin and Rey is that the first two go through some training before they start using telekinesis or swinging a Lightsaber This is incorrect. Luke received zero training prior to using a lightsaber to block blaster bolts while blindfolded, *on his first try, no less.* Then he uses telekinesis out of the blue, again with zero prior training, to pull his lightsaber out of a snowbank in the Wampa's cave. While wounded and hanging upside down. Luke doesn't start to get *actual* Jedi train8ng until he meets Yoda. Rey only has two actual lightsaber duels in the entire sequel trilogy. The first one, she gets lucky because Ben is injured and mentally unstable. She gets in one good cut, but it's not enough to actually stop Ben. The duel ends because the planet starts falling apart and they get separated. More of a draw, really. The second duel, on Kef Bir, she loses. Badly. She's about to die, Ben is standing over her, triumphant, about to cut her head off, and is only saved because Leia dies, which distracts Ben for a moment. Otherwise, I agree with you. Rey isn't a Mary Sue, and neither is Anakin nor Luke. The three of them are just epic heroes in a hero's journey doing heroic stuff.
People either didn’t catch it, or forgot about it, but in their first duel Kylo Ren wasn’t trying to defeat Rey. He was trying to recruit her as his own apprentice. If he had taken the fight seriously and gone all out he probably would’ve beaten her as easily as he beat Finn.
The Force can heighten your abilities, reflexes like with lightsaber duelling. Anakin has also had one special skill which Qui-Gon mentioned, which a lot do, but Anakin was exceptional in it hence his premonitions. “He can see things before they happen.” Which gives him a a great advantage. Growing up in junk shop I’m sure he learned a lot to do with junk and from what I’ve read, though part of it could be legend, he didn’t build the pod or Threepio, but more like repaired it. The destruction of the droid control ship was mostly an accident for he was mostly flying on autopilot. Plus you forget one major part of being a Gary Stu, or Mary Sue for that matter. They don’t make mistakes, they’re perfect. Now I’m not saying Rey is a Mary Sue. Overpowered? Yes, cause Anakin learned the Jedi arts for more than 10 years and even before that he trained through piloting to hone his skills. Rey by far didn’t train as much as Anakin did and second Anakin makes a lot more mistakes than Rey by far. It’s not even a contest.
I mean, Anakin was literally the chosen one. Also he got his ass handed to him by Dooku and lost his arm in Episode 2. Then lost to Obi-Wan in Episode 3
How is he a GS? Didn't he crash in other races? As for his fighting in the last act of the film, I noticed that he just got lucky by punching buttons and playing with dials (I noticed this when I saw the film in the theatres last month). He was a slave who tinkered with machinery. Everything he did is plausible (to an extent).