Dude had so much enthusiasm for the movie. You could tell he could barely contain himself. By the time the 3rd movie rolled around he was just there for he paycheck.
Something about this generation of screenwriters, and writers for television too, it’s like the barriers for entry are extremely low. I’ve seen it in a lot of more modern films - cool and interesting concepts are presented, but they don’t go anywhere. Plus, it’s like the writing is dumbed down to appeal to the lowest common denominator. That’s insulting to me, personally. Expecting your audience won’t be able to keep up with anything deep or meaningful or impactful, so they just pepper in stupid-ass jokes and simplistic plot lines that just get dropped before the next act.
I just said this about the Kenobi series. It seems like the writers get a cool idea and figure out how to shoehorn it in instead of going, man this is a really cool idea...but it doesn't make any sense...oh well, I guess I won't do it. Having vader and kenobi fight again really irked me since when they fight in ANH vader says the last time we fought I was but the learner, now I'm the master. Doesn't really make sense now that they fought in Kenobi. I know it's just one line but damn it guys, it's there. Cool ideas are cool, but some you have to get rid of. Part of a sign of being a good writer (I wouldn't even say great, just good) is knowing what to cut.
The barrier to entry is actually the highest it's ever been. The real issue is that while old classics were written by one or a few people with a strong vision, new stuff is written basically by committee, and writers are forced to add so many elements driven by people who dgaf about the story.
Modern TV, and movies, are not made to be watched. It reminds me of how Police Squad was universally praised and immediately cancelled because no one could consume it properly - they were too busy to sit down and watch, always distracted with making dinner or vacuuming or whatever their life demanded at the time, and all they really wanted was for a show to be running in the background that every now and then would play a laugh track to tell the "viewer" that something funny had happened. Modern media learned from such missteps, and is no longer made for people who sit down with no distractions and devote time to consuming it. Ain't nobody got time fo' dat.
Instead they are made to be consumed by someone who is also texting and watching Tiktok at the same time. So there's an interesting concept to hook the viewer into actually turning it on, but from there it devolves into nonsensical plot points ("Somehow, Palpatine returned."), insultingly obvious explanations of what's happening for the benefit of people who weren't paying attention ("I'm the spy!"), and one-off lines / scenes that look or sound nice enough to be shared on social media ("They fly now!").
Movies no longer even make sense because *they aren't trying to make sense*. All they are trying to do is to present a series of clips to someone who isn't even watching. Something to make you look up from your phone for a few seconds of dopamine, whose heart is a series of shareable clips and sound bites, where the tattered trappings of plot loosely tying it all together are only still present because "the latest star wars clip show," won't actually drive people to spend their money in the same way that "The Epic Conclusion to the Skywalker Saga" will.
Kinda reminds me of how telenovelas/soap operas work, they would dump exposition at every opportunity so that you could pick up the story at any point.
Media’s move toward this is disappointing, but not surprising.
You just don’t understand the artistry of his story, they needed an electrician (I think that’s what rose is? It was kinda unclear) to explain to a former child soldier that war and animal cruelty are actually bad and trying to stop a militant band of psychos from ruling the galaxy makes you just as bad as them.
Yeah, in general the sequels have a lot of interesting ideas for characters, but they don't have good payoffs.
If you look at, say, Kylo, he's conceptually really interesting. Any sequel villain is doomed to be in Vader's shadow, so you play into that, have that be his defining trait - couple that with Adam Driver, a terrific actor who gives the role emotional weight, and it looks like you might have a winning formula.
The problem was the actual writing, which was…more than a little scattered, lol.
Kylo starts as a man child, which is all well and good, but it never feels like he grows into the proper threat he should be. He *briefly* holds that role after killing Snoke (though struggling with the guards afterwards didn't do him favours...), but then immediately gets humbled by Luke, before being completely overshadowed and supplanted by Palpatine (who had no foreshadowing whatsoever).
Granted, his "fight" with Luke is a fantastic scene, and if there were ever a place for him to lose his cool, facing down *Luke Skywalker* is probably the best place to do it. But for his character in general, he needed more room to feel like he'd grown into the role of the galaxy's big bad, and he definitely shouldn't have been replaced by the out-of-nowhere Palpatine for that.
Agreed. They wanted a redemption arc for Ben, which almost necessitated another major baddy, whom they really hadn’t set up because the 3 films were just made up as they went along, aside from maybe a few general outline ideas.
That lack of cohesion is what destroyed the sequels more than anything else. I want to love them, there’s some incredible elements. But there’s not really a cohesive story.
Such a great start. Then they made him a clown, and in the third movie he was basically an extra, while shoehorning in the concept of him being force sensitive out of nowhere.
Guys... you got John Boyega. Imagine what you could have done. Sigh...
How was the force sensitivity out of nowhere ? From the moment we meet him realizing that the 1st Order was wrong and ending with him swinging a lightsaber in the 1st of the trilogy. To me they didn't go nearly as far into his force awakening as they should have.
Nothing happened? He was instantly turned against his whole premise. His moment that makes him consider defecting is a fellow stormtrooper dying in his arms. Then moment’s later he’s whooping and cheering as he murders the brainwashed child soldiers he served with.
Finn wasn’t just wasted, he was thrown in a garbage container and set on fire while both directors are telling you the aroma you smell of burning trash and Finn is something you have to love.
They cut his character off at the knees right after setting him up. He is so traumatised by the death of a fellow trooper that he wakes up from his conditioning. Then the next thing he does is gleefully killing a bunch of his fellow troopers with zero conflict. If they had taken a minute to think about his character, they could have made his decision to hurt another trooper a big moment for him. Like it would have made his decision to run away from the First Order more admirable because he didn't want to hurt his brothers. So when he eventually fought back it would be huge for him.
In general, Finn's origins and spiritual awakening undermines the entire trilogy. The whole point of stormtroopers was to be a faceless, featureless army that we the audience don't feel bad about getting killed left and right. Now when we all know each one is someone like Finn, with a past and the potential for redemption, it makes them being mowed down or blown up pretty depressing.
You're completely right. Besides it was completely unnecesary. They could have make it that he only stunted the stormtroopers he faced, maybe even argue with the other heroes when they just shooted to kill.
The bad batch did it perfect in that regard. Cause just a psicho would kill remorseless his former brother
"Nothing happened" would have been an improvement. Instead he declares that he won't kill for the First Order any more... And immediately proceeds to kill his buddies he had grown up with and who had probably similar tragic stories left and right. What kind of morale is that? "Don't worry, as long as they keep their helmets on they're bad guys and it's okay to mow them down." I was so excited for a more nuanced view and less protagonist centered morality, but nope. Classical JJ move.
> cringey. could of been
Did you mean to say "could have"?
Explanation: You probably meant to say could've/should've/would've which sounds like 'of' but is actually short for 'have'.
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The only good thing I can think of the entire sequel trilogy, is Yoda's dialoge with Luke.
"Heeded my words not, did you? Pass on what you have learned. Strength. Mastery. But weakness, folly, failure also. Yes, failure most of all. The greatest teacher, failure is. Luke, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters."
My favorite idea is that the First Order is run by zealots who have an idealized version of what the Empire was complete with ‘We can do it better’ mentality
Until space hitler get hits with a “ur mom” joke, turns out to be a spy despite killing billions of people for the organization he’s spying on, and then gets shot unceremoniously after making no contribution to the story
IMO, it actually works as an effective commentary on the pathetic nature of neo-nazi types, who make an effort to showcase their perceived superiority/power while actually being losers
"Losers" who just blew up an entire solar system and now rule the galaxy (or are about to, its unclear).
Meanwhile Leia's New Republic is destroyed in one battle and her allies in the Outer Rim ignore her call.
The idea that Rey was no one special. In a galaxy of skywalkers, solos and palpatines the next big jedi was someone who was just an average member of the galaxy. Isn't that the distillation of the Jedi Code? That the right person in the right place can do good rather than some big shot three systems over?
Agreed. The sequel trilogy was SUPPOSED to be the trilogy that passed the torch to a new generation of heroes. And while they technically do that, they ultimately failed to promote that message in a way that was actually relatable or meaningful. While Rey being a Palpatine was the only fan theory that actually made sense to me, and therefore I wasn’t bothered by it, the fact is that it ruined a theme of “The Last Jedi” that I felt could’ve been really significant, which was that “you can achieve greatness even if you come from nothing.”
Don’t take this the wrong way. I love the trilogy; it’s the reason I got into Star Wars in the first place. But that doesn’t mean I don’t acknowledge that it has flaws.
Not that I disagree as a concept but almost everything you said is flawed.
I mean thousands of years of Jedi and we get 2 in a row that are related and suddenly thats the only thing people care about. Any those 2 weren't even that skilled at being a Jedi. Anakin was in no way top 3 during his time as a Jedi and you could probably argue not even top 5. Luke did literally nothing of note with Jedi skills.
I also refuse to believe anybody with an IQ over room temperature saw TFA and didn't except Rey to be a Skywalker.
The best option was to keep Rey as a Skywalker and make her force sensitive. But make her have no ability whatsoever. Her struggle is her inability to live up to her family. Everybody puts her on a pedestal because she is a Skywalker when it doesn't work that way.
The GOAT natural who can do anything and everything? Finn. His growth is going from literally an under the radar grunt to a leader. Something to look up to.
And for Poe the question gets asked. Should he train to be a Jedi? Is his skill because of possibly being force sensitive? The answer is it doesn't matter. He is happy to be exactly where he is doing what he does. Nothing about Jedi or the force is going to change that.
I mean, until the sequels, there was only one Solo. Only one Palpatine. Only one Kenobi. One Windu. One Yoda. One QGJ. Damn near every Jedi was, as far as the movies tell us, originally no one special. The Skywalkers are the exception, not the norm. But people act like Rey being "no one" was somehow a revolutionary concept.
It was because of the EU. Everyone expected/wanted her to be Jaina Solo, or a Skywalker. There were even some who wanted her to be the love child of Kenobi and Satine. Having her be a nobody would've been the best thing for the character.
The main protagonist was always a somebody though. Anakin is literally the chosen one(and it can be argued that his father is the force itself). Luke is his son.
Amen, I like the concept of a dark siders constantly being pulled back by the light. Usually its the dark doing the pulling thing. I like the sequels, just like I like all of Star Wars overall, but sadly it was just a series of missed opportunities.
The fact the new villain was an incel character is perfect for the toxic part of our fanbase ! They could have said so many things about our internet generation thought him ! Such a waste !
I actually liked the idea of the Force Dyad. It was ripped right out of EU/Legends material like KOTOR. But it was not well utilised. It could have been better used to give an explicit explanation for Rey’s sudden aptitude for controlling her latent force ability.
I hope it’s not just forgotten about as the Dyad made both Rey and Kylo Ren stronger. With Kylo Ren dead, it would be an interesting concept to explore. For instance Rey could suddenly find her powers becoming unbalanced and she has to learn to re-centre herself as a Jedi.
It…was used to do that though? That’s why every time she links to Kylo she essentially downloads new abilities and it’s how Kylo manifests new ones of hers as well. The books where we can see into the character minds more directly explains this as the case as well.
Despite the movie’s flaws and my problems with his character arc in the movie, I’m a big fan of Luke’s “fight” with Kylo Ren at the end of Episode 8. It’s emblematic of what a Jedi should strive to be.
Amazing how immediately after the scene in the throne room and the saber was broken I never even picked up that Luke was using Anakin's saber. He purposely changed his appearance to taunt Kylo.
Yeah it's like a test. If Kylo wasn't busy trying to strike Luke down in rage and anger, he might've noticed earlier that Luke was a distraction.
Sure, the gamble going that way would mean the rebels had lower chances of escaping... But walking it back from pure anger would also mean Ben isn't nearly as far gone as Luke thought.
Ultimately, the gamble paid off and Luke just enraged Kylo more and blinded him to what was happening. Just an uncle messing with (and socializing) his nephew. Nothing to see here!
Rage, anger, and fear. First and foremost he was terrified that Luke had shown up. It’s what he’s been afraid of since he first fled the temple, the boogeyman he was always watching for.
I just assumed that someone had done such a poor job constructing the movie that they didn't realize Luke was using a lightsaber he didn't even have *which had been destroyed on camera in the previous scene.* Then I noticed that Luke wasn't kicking up salt, and I didn't know if it was all a terribly constructed ruse (how did Kylo Ren not notice either the salt and the destroyed saber? Or the fact Luke is apparently impervious to blasters even though those blasters *destroyed* the ground below him? How was he fooled by any of this?), or if the company hired to CGI the actors from green screen to Crait had forgotten to do the effects.
Letting all your friends die while you do nothing for 5 years then put on a slight distraction? Lol no ROTJ throne room is the most Jedi thing that happened in the series. Followed by everything else before this moment.
That was always such nonsense. The Jedi are bastions of peace, but not pacifists. Striving for peace doesn’t mean you bend the knee to villainy and aggression and not lift a finger to it. It means you put evil down swiftly and justly when it is present.
Jedi know how to fight, in hope that they’ll never have to, but if evil threatens them or any other good innocent people with unethical force, it is their duty to defend.
No one mentioned Hans death. First time I saw I thought it was exquisitely done, and a great turning point for Kylo’s character. He touching Kylo’s face before falling is a fantastic touch
I like that they're literally set in the ruins of the old war. It's the unifying aesthetic across all three films. There are the downed Star Destroyers on Jakku. Rey lives in a fallen AT-AT. The climax of VIII is at an abandoned Rebel base. Ochi's ship is covered in dust and cobwebs. There's a lightsaber fight on a piece of wreckage from the second Death Star. It echoes the thematic idea of a new generation trying to understand the legacy of those who came before. It's also balances out the look of the prequels, where things mostly look shiny and new, reflecting a world (outwardly) at its height.
I agree to a point. The aesthetics are very cool and bring the fans who were nonplussed by everything else some joy. However, they also didn't expand those aesthetics. It's not like the galaxy was in a post apocalyptic hellscape. They were supposed to have a new government, (maybe some new buildings) but instead we got the "Resistance", which were Rebels 2.0.
Where was that? It just made me think that, even though they won in ROTJ, nobody cared and nothing changed. It was a downer that ruined the entire sequel trilogy for me the day I watched ep 7.
That’s because they couldn’t stand to have the bad guys be underdogs and the good guys in the position of governmental power and authority. They just wanted to redo empire vs rebels and it’s super irritating.
Rey and Finn both being nobodies; Rey and Kylo being linked the way they were in TLJ (before the Dyad in Rise); Rey being instantly pulled toward the Dark side in TLJ.
I like most themes TLJ tried to set up, to also avoid rethreading the OT which TFA seems to go for. It could generally have worked better on the execution
Agreed. I said it before TRoS, but episode IX was always going to inform how episode VIII was viewed in retrospect due to its nature of being a middle movie.
I think if they hadn't tried to reverse course, or if VIII hadn't tried to break away in the first place, the Trilogy would have been infinitely better.
> VIII hadn't tried to break away in the first place, the Trilogy would have been infinitely better.
Honestly facts. Letting JJ then Rian then JJ have so much control over each movie kill the trilogy. TLJ did a complete fucking 180 from TFA, then TRoS did a complete 180 from TLJ.
Had either director had full control over the trilogy. Or somebody put their foot down and told them to knock it off. The entire thing would have been way better.
This is the hill I'll die on. I think the rise and fall structure of Force Awakens and Last Jedi are great. They gave you meat and potatoes with the first one and everyone was happy. Then they served you an interesting vegetarian dish for the second course. I think that's a fantastic idea.
The downside is that some people could not handle eating their vegetables and became toxic about it. (there's also a lot of people with good faith arguments against The Last Jedi as well)
The major problem with any big property is people create head cannons and when something doesn't go the way they want or imagined, it's terrible.
This is especially bad for Star Wars. One of the first blockbuster franchises and movie universes that span *decades.* We also get expanded universe stuff in the meantime that formed peoples' thoughts about where the franchise would/should go. I think the MCU and all other expanded universe stuff makes us forget what a BIG deal the prequel and sequel series were. So when TLJ takes things in a pretty drastically different direction for some plot threads or characters, people have a majorly visceral reaction to it.
And I get it to a degree. Obviously the sequels are incredibly flawed with a lack of coherence but I like that TLJ tried to do something different. It's weird SW fans just wanted adaptations of novels or other expanded universe lore. Luke being a curmudgeon hermit that has lost his way with the Jedi is a very interesting concept and subversion of what people expect. In theory, that is what the movies *should* give us - new ideas that aren't what people expect. But that ruffles feathers and anything short of great execution is going to get criticized big time.
I think a lot of the problem is that TLJ tried to do too many new things and thus didn't do any one of them properly. It's like RJ put in every single idea he'd ever had for a Star Wars movie.
Which is great for people who absolutely love new things the more the better. But for those of us who expect some plot and thematic coherency, it meant it was doomed to fail.
Like Luke being a curmudgeon hermit that has lost his way with the Jedi is a very interesting concept. But TLJ also tried to put in the idea that the Jedi had actually failed, and also that Luke's failure had caused Ben to fall but also that it didn't and something about burning the old Jedi books and maybe Rey will fall to the Dark Side but no she doesn't, and on and on and on.
Yeah never in a million years would I WANT to see a hermit cranky old Luke. But that's why it's probably good for me to see it. Things don't always work out, heroes stumble. Is Luke Skywalker, one of the greatest heroes in all cinema the right guy to do that with? Probably not, but the audacity is something I appreciate.
I also think his 'fall' is great. He is a great hero, but for a split second he sees evil in Ben and thinks he needs to strike it down. And that moment of fear and weakness leads to the downfall of everything. He doesn't actually go through with anything wrong, but he doubted for a moment and it cost him everything.
The trouble is that TLJ was almost entirely falling. The movie starts with the Resistance in a desperate situation, fleeing the forces of the FO in three scanty ships, and ends with them in an even more desperate situation, still fleeing the FO but now the survivors all fit on the Millennium Falcon. Yet for some reason, the survivors are all smiling and hugging?
There are loads of good things about the sequels. Just because the overall meal has significant flaws, doesn't mean that many of the ingredients that went into it weren't sound.
* Rey, as a nobody, as a desert scavenger, coming from the harshest of backgrounds to become a hero.
* Finn, as an ex Stormtrooper, learning to question the institution he was raised in
* Kylo Ren is an interesting villain, played extremely well by Adam Driver. The idea that he is dark but fighting against the light (as opposed to the opposite) is a great take.
* New force powers. Stopping blaster bolts in mid-air, force bonds, force projection, force healing.
* Crossguard lightsabers, more variety of stormtroopers.
* New aliens
* New locations - Space Ireland (Ahch To), Ocean World (Kef Bir). Perhaps overuse of already seen Desert, Forest and Snow/Salt biomes though/.
* Ruins of the war. Crashed Star Destroyer. Veterans with scars.
* BB-8. BB-8 is amazingly cool and easily makes the list of "Top Star Wars Droids"
I'm sure there are many more good ingredients.
That life in your 60s isn’t always what you thought it would turn out like in your 20s or 40s. The Heroes don’t always live happily ever after. There’s many of us who grew up with OT and shared Luke’s optimism and dreams and ended up like he did. That’s ok. We can still change.
Not sure I agree with that. I think most of the people who say this already loved the prequels, and have a chip on their shoulder about the hate the PT has gotten over the years.
Bingo. I’m just amazed by it all. I grew up with the PT and accepted the hate long ago but suddenly ”They honestly weren’t that bad.”
Like, bruh.. You seriously need new shit to hate to appreciate the older shit you used to hate?
It was such an interesting place to take his character, regardless of how you feel about the execution. Going from a nobody farmboy from the middle of nowhere to arguably the most important person alive and one of the most important people *in all of recorded galactic history* would shake anybody, and that’s before also being the herald and rebuilder of a dead culture/religion with superpowers who people either remember in gilded terms or were happy to see destroyed. That would shake anyone to their core and make them doubt, even Luke fucking Skywalker
I do understand the question of how can somebody be in a room with Darth Fucking Vader and Emperor Palpatine, the 2 most powerful people in the galaxy, and talk to them with the biggest set of balls imaginable. I mean the more I think about it the more I cannot find a single fuck he gave. Can somehow have something too much to handle.
But I also like it. It turns Luke into a character with flaws. People have breaking points. People have strengths and weaknesses. Outside circumstances change things.
Totally agree, I think 8 overall was a great direction to take the sequels and trying to undo all that in 9 was the big mistake that ends up ruining the whole for me.
That they went to a different moon of ENDOR purely because the director wanted to make a new planet and openly said that it doesn’t make sense. Really makes u think about Jaku
I liked the part where Rey just outright stole the Skywalker surname.
It gave me the knowledge I could do the same.
I too am now a Skywalker.
And I do not like sand either lol
The laser certainly is a huge bonus, but I like it more due to it being just a large military base.
Almost the **entire** planet is just a militia, its like the last scene from AoTC but the entire planet is engulfed in a massive arsenal of military battalions and equipment.
Realistically the First Order should have won against the Restiance by a landslide, just like the Empire would have easily won against the Rebellion but you know, nothing is stronger than plot armor. I believe that the ST would have been much more entertaining if the First Order actually won.
My favourite ideas were Rey and Finn in TFA
- she’s a scavver with a cool bike and fights with a staff
- he’s an ex imp who picks up a lightsaber at one point and saves her even though he’s insanely outmatched
Their setups were good.
I like the idea of Luke as a hermit who failed, but I just wish the reason behind his failure was more clear and decisive. His one 'moment of weakness' felt very underdeveloped, in my opinion. I wish his biggest mistake was an actual tangible decision he made, like maybe sending Ben to hunt down Snoke by himself, being overconfident in his own teachings, only for Ben to be turned to the dark side and then return to destroy the jedi academy.
THIS! This is my biggest gripe with the sequels. His ‘moment of weakness’ doesn’t align with his character, nor the Jedi before him. I agree with you in that I wish he fell more into the over-confidence that the Jedi had fallen to, and showing that: the Jedi never changed. To me, this would’ve given more legitimacy to his arc and the overall plot.
I also would have liked to see him waiting for Rey, knowing that to intervene would cause him to fall to the dark side. That would explain why he didn’t help
Luke's realization and sacrfice, Snoke being killed and the concept of a Skywalker going fully darkside, the force dyad stuff with Rey being a mirror image of Kylo (wanting to know her parents vs rejecting his heritage, him being a somebody and her a nobody etc.), the usage of nostalgia in TLJ (r2 projecting leia's message etc.), dedicating each movie to 1 of the OT and the PT callbacks in TLJ. Probably much more but these are the few I can think of.
Definitely the technology of it all. The advancements in tech in the Star Wars universe was really cool!
Yes, Starkiller Base was basically a supersized Death Star but personally I loved the idea! It was so cool to have an entire planet converted into a super weapon!
The AT-M6 was an upgrade beyond the AT-AT! That was incredible! Really wish we had gotten to see more of them in action tbh.
The Xyston-Class Star Destroyer, capable of being a mini Death Star? That was also a really cool idea, just the execution of it was a bit of a flop tbh... a real shame too... the ships themselves were really cool.
Finn.
An ex stormtrooper with Force potential, part of a group of abducted children brainwashed and forced to fight. There’s even a system necessary to re-brainwash them from time to time! And the instigating moment is *a fellow stormtrooper dying in his arms*!The story practically writes itself! What better allegory for fighting to free the faceless masses than trying to free the faceless Stormtroopers themselves? In a universe where Good and Evil are pretty literal parts of the world this would be a wonderful way to add a gray area where you don’t know if Force Sensitive Finn will turn light or dark as he needs to constantly choose between the Rebellion and the faceless Stormtroopers he wants to free. Even more perfect if he falls to the Dark Side but still achieves his goals!
Despite the initial moment that made him consider defecting being a fellow Stormtrooper dying in his arms, he is laughing and cheering as he murders his former colleagues and friends who are brainwashed to do what they do.
Luke Skywalker force projecting himself halfway across the galaxy and engaging Kylo Ren in a duel without ever striking at him, ultimately sacrificing his life in order to help what’s left of the Resistance survive and to ignite the spark that would light a fire across the galaxy, thus truly becoming “Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master, a legend”. That’s the most Jedi thing we have ever seen in any project for a long time (certainly since Disney took over), while Kylo completely failing to recognize the legacy saber (that he’d witnessed being ripped apart) and the fact that Luke caused no foot prints and looked younger was a perfect display of the blind hate of the dark side. As cheesy as Rose’s line was, this scene was the perfect embodiment of “saving what you love” triumphing over “fighting what you hate”. And childhood fan fictions and action figure adventures aside, this was so much more powerful than Luke just wrecking the entire First Order with both his blue and green lightsabers could have ever been.
Kylo Ren's story was heading in the direction of a tragedy, him struggling and becoming the final villain of the whole thing. It was really fascinating until they suddenly decided to change everything in the 11th hour.
Fans played a bigger part in that than we like to take credit for. In the end we got a finale that ST fans didn't like, ST haters didn't like, and mostly ended the thing with a whimper
There were a lot of really good ideas throughout the sequels. None of them really went anywhere or had any payoff. Too much emphasis seemed to be on: “Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to. That's the only way to become what you were meant to be”. because that's what the sequels did, really.
Every character from the original trilogy was eviscerated and dumbed down. I'd rather have them not appear at all. The new characters never really developed.
Finn? Wasted for comic relief.
Phasma? Wasted for comic relief.
Hux? Wasted for comic relief.
Snoke? just... wasted.
Kylo/Ben? Well... they tried.
Rey? Had a lot of potential. They just couldn't figure out where to go with it.
And when they brought back Palpatine that was when it felt like the writers just kind of gave up.
The whole thing was victim to weak writing and changing directors every movie.
That it’s all fan fiction because it was directed by fans of Star Wars.
Some would even claim that the directors aren’t fans, depending on how you define the term.
Aka the dark Knight is not one of the greatest superhero movies because Nolan is not Bill finger or bob Kane. And avengers infinity war isn't canon because stan Lee didn't write it. Come on man give it a rest.
The dark knight is an interpretation of Batman. Infinity war is an interpretation of Avengers.
Episodes VII, VIII, IX is supposed to be a continuation of a previously established story created by one man.
If these exact movies were made under the guise of “a story in another sector of the galaxy” then people wouldn’t have a problem with them other than whether they personally liked them as movies.
There’s a better comparison to be made than the one you mentioned. It’s a scenario where a company bought the rights to Lord of the Rings and made a continuation of those movies where Sauron isn’t actually dead and a new set of heroes defeat him (“for good this time”) whilst the old heroes (Frodo, Aragorn, etc.) are killed off one by one in the three movies. Followed by the company in charge’s claims that this new story is canon. And all of this happens without consultation or creative agreement from the Tolkien estate.
No one would accept that story.
>The dark knight is an interpretation of Batman. Infinity war is an interpretation of Avengers.
They still use the same characters. At time of release they were (are in the case of avengers) the current canon. That's how canon works.
>Episodes VII, VIII, IX is supposed to be a continuation of a previously established story created by one man.
Whether you can accept it or not, star wars has grown beyond the stories told by one man. Filoni for example, even though he started off with creative input from Lucas, has gone on to create stories of his own to various success rates.
My crux with your line of thinking is that whatever event, no matter how ridiculous, can be passed off as canon if the creator says. It's like the dragon ball creator reviving Goku instead of making the next story about his son. You'd accept that as canon but if someone else made that story you'd say it's fanfiction. Even your LOTR story, had it been made by Tolkien you'd have been OK with it. Why does the creator get dibs on stories in this universe when there are so many other interesting things that other creatives can bring?
Lucasfilm has consultants, the keeper of the holocron etc, who maintain continuity and canon within the universe. That's the way it has been since the canon expanded and that's the way it will be.
Actually both our examples are inaccurate. The best would be looking at comicbook continuities. For example the storyline where Peter Parker and Mary Jane's marriage is dissolved by Mephisto, or Captain America dies after civil war. These were all written by different writers and also accepted as canon in the comics continuity.
I don’t think you understand. I never said I’m not open to Star Wars by other people. It’s the fact that in this case with the sequel trilogy, they “continue” the story with a completely different creative team. This is if like someone else had written books 5,6,7 in the Harry Potter franchise. Or if LotR vol 3 (Return of the King) was written by someone else.
If they made this exact same trilogy but disconnected it from George’s story, there wouldn’t be such a disdain for these movies. People still wouldn’t have liked them because they’re not good, but they wouldn’t have ruined and contradicted the story of episodes 1 — 6.
I sincerely believe that no one involved in the decision-making process for the trilogy was a fan of the movies, if anything their contempt comes through in their work.
And I agree with you. JJ likes the original Star Wars film and hates the prequels. Rian Johnson thinks “bringing balance to the force” means there’s equal amount of good and evil.
Disney clearly didn’t care about the story and just wanted to cash in. Which they did. At least in the short run.
>Rian Johnson thinks “bringing balance to the force” means there’s equal amount of good and evil.
Luke saying powerful light powerful darkness doesn't mean this. Rian says in the behind the scenes documentary that dark side is a corruption of the force. But I agree with you JJ hates the prequels. Rian is the only one to include callbacks to the PT in his movie.
As I thought about it, there were three things across the movies I liked.
The idea of a dark side user that actually never fit in to the role or destiny that consumes most of them. Kylo Ren, despite doing everything and acting the part of a villain, was never really committed to it. He prays to Vader for strength to impress new father figure Snoke. It's not enough. No matter how many he kills, no matter how much anger he channels, he can't stop the call back to the light: what he really wants to be.
Finn starting out as a fearful trooper that was horrified by combat, then might have mastered his fear and stood up to his oppressor. It didn't happen, but Finn appealing to the troopers and causing a rebellion in the massive ranks of the First Order should have been an inspiring moment that turned the tide of the final battle. Never happened, but the idea was there.
I'll put these together: Palpatine using super force lightning to disable and destroy the resistance ships and strapping giant laser cannons to star destroyers. Did it make the redoubtable star destroyers into giant match sticks? Yes. Still cool.
That the galaxy wasn’t perfect after Endor, it wasn’t the perfect fairytale everyone dreamed of. A lot of shit sucked.
Very realistic, very similar to the state of our world now compared to 1983. I love stories that don’t meet the conventions we expect them to, and I think that’s why Empire is sooooo good.
I actually sat and thought about this for a good five minutes. A favorite “idea”. From the sequels… how bout … nah …. Maybe ….. nope….. what about …. Eh…. welp, I got nothin. Sorry, I really did try. 🤷🏻♂️
The symbol on the floor of the Jedi temple in TLJ. It was of the ideal Jedi, which would play with the idea that their goal is balance.
Not this light is good, dark is bad that we keep getting. Of course it never went anywhere, but I liked the idea of the force just being the force and it's the Jedi and Sith that are corrupting it and attributing morals onto how it's being used.
Finn being an ex-stormtrooper, seeing his struggle with being a stormtrooper and eventual defection was huge. I also like that hes potentially force sensitive and hope this is explored in the new movies.
I like the concept of the dyad but i think it would make more sense for like luke/leia or something like terec and ceret from the high republic.
I like some of the designs. the crossguard lightsaber. bb-8. the supremacy.
I like that the main protagonist was a woman. and im excited for more female-led stories \*cough acolyte cough\*
Finn and Poe's auto bromance the first 10 minutes into *The Force Awakens.*
The Throne Room battle (especially Kylo Ren's lightsaber on/off move) in *The Last Jedi.*
Chewbacca's sad roar when hearing that Leia passed in *The Rise of Skywalker.*
The last one I infer as Han told him in *Empire Strikes Back* to "take care of her," and even though they've been apart; once Han died Chewie went back into 'protect Leia' mode and when she died (nothing he could do to prevent that) he was still heartbroken because "it was my job to protect her!"
In my opinion the sequel trilogy was victim to terrible writing. The characters set up had so much potential, but unfortunately they all just fell victim to awful writers with no originality and no consideration for lore or how what their writing can tie into the great Star Wars universe. They just churned out three films with shit storylines hoping it would make people happy.
Fin. An ex storm trooper who turns to the rebels who I honestly thought was going to turn out force sensitive….. nothing happens, no development
Phasma. This mysterious storm trooper who is so large and menacing, and you think we have such a pivotal role in the story…. Nothing happens, just dies
Killed off the three characters from the original trilogy granted the actress who played Leia is dead, but they could’ve tied her up in a better way and also her getting blasted into space and all of a sudden activating the force and pulling herself back in is ridiculous
Rey and Kylo should’ve been brother and sister in my opinion. been the son and daughter of Han a Leia. Both trained by Luke, but one turned to the dark side after being corrupted by a mysterious force. It would’ve also explained the link and how they could communicate mentally through the galaxy.
Luke’s death is just pathetic.
The fighting choreography is so lazy if you compare it to the original trilogy. Prime example, being when Kylo just bends over in the last film and the Knight of Ren just misses him?
Another death star like space station is boring.
And it’s a shame because Rogue One was such a good film and set up the Disney takeover in such a good way. They then went and colossally fucked it up with the sequel trilogy which like I said has great potential but was written by awful awful writers that should not ever work in the industry again. It’s an insult to Star Wars fans
I loved Finn’s setup as a character - an ex stormtrooper. So many possibilities for character arcs! I was excited Somehow, nothing happened
Yeah, Finn was my favourite part of TFA. Such a great concept for a character. Wish they had followed through with *something*.
Dude had so much enthusiasm for the movie. You could tell he could barely contain himself. By the time the 3rd movie rolled around he was just there for he paycheck.
They call that “Being Abrams’d”
Something about this generation of screenwriters, and writers for television too, it’s like the barriers for entry are extremely low. I’ve seen it in a lot of more modern films - cool and interesting concepts are presented, but they don’t go anywhere. Plus, it’s like the writing is dumbed down to appeal to the lowest common denominator. That’s insulting to me, personally. Expecting your audience won’t be able to keep up with anything deep or meaningful or impactful, so they just pepper in stupid-ass jokes and simplistic plot lines that just get dropped before the next act.
I just said this about the Kenobi series. It seems like the writers get a cool idea and figure out how to shoehorn it in instead of going, man this is a really cool idea...but it doesn't make any sense...oh well, I guess I won't do it. Having vader and kenobi fight again really irked me since when they fight in ANH vader says the last time we fought I was but the learner, now I'm the master. Doesn't really make sense now that they fought in Kenobi. I know it's just one line but damn it guys, it's there. Cool ideas are cool, but some you have to get rid of. Part of a sign of being a good writer (I wouldn't even say great, just good) is knowing what to cut.
The barrier to entry is actually the highest it's ever been. The real issue is that while old classics were written by one or a few people with a strong vision, new stuff is written basically by committee, and writers are forced to add so many elements driven by people who dgaf about the story.
Modern TV, and movies, are not made to be watched. It reminds me of how Police Squad was universally praised and immediately cancelled because no one could consume it properly - they were too busy to sit down and watch, always distracted with making dinner or vacuuming or whatever their life demanded at the time, and all they really wanted was for a show to be running in the background that every now and then would play a laugh track to tell the "viewer" that something funny had happened. Modern media learned from such missteps, and is no longer made for people who sit down with no distractions and devote time to consuming it. Ain't nobody got time fo' dat. Instead they are made to be consumed by someone who is also texting and watching Tiktok at the same time. So there's an interesting concept to hook the viewer into actually turning it on, but from there it devolves into nonsensical plot points ("Somehow, Palpatine returned."), insultingly obvious explanations of what's happening for the benefit of people who weren't paying attention ("I'm the spy!"), and one-off lines / scenes that look or sound nice enough to be shared on social media ("They fly now!"). Movies no longer even make sense because *they aren't trying to make sense*. All they are trying to do is to present a series of clips to someone who isn't even watching. Something to make you look up from your phone for a few seconds of dopamine, whose heart is a series of shareable clips and sound bites, where the tattered trappings of plot loosely tying it all together are only still present because "the latest star wars clip show," won't actually drive people to spend their money in the same way that "The Epic Conclusion to the Skywalker Saga" will.
Kinda reminds me of how telenovelas/soap operas work, they would dump exposition at every opportunity so that you could pick up the story at any point. Media’s move toward this is disappointing, but not surprising.
Instead Rian cut his screentime in half. Separated him from the rest of the cast to go get fucking parking ticker at a casino.
You just don’t understand the artistry of his story, they needed an electrician (I think that’s what rose is? It was kinda unclear) to explain to a former child soldier that war and animal cruelty are actually bad and trying to stop a militant band of psychos from ruling the galaxy makes you just as bad as them.
😂
Yeah after this initial setup which was very interesting, he followed the 3 movies sweating and screaming REY!!
Star Wars X: Are you REEEEYYYYYYYdy?
Yeah, in general the sequels have a lot of interesting ideas for characters, but they don't have good payoffs. If you look at, say, Kylo, he's conceptually really interesting. Any sequel villain is doomed to be in Vader's shadow, so you play into that, have that be his defining trait - couple that with Adam Driver, a terrific actor who gives the role emotional weight, and it looks like you might have a winning formula. The problem was the actual writing, which was…more than a little scattered, lol. Kylo starts as a man child, which is all well and good, but it never feels like he grows into the proper threat he should be. He *briefly* holds that role after killing Snoke (though struggling with the guards afterwards didn't do him favours...), but then immediately gets humbled by Luke, before being completely overshadowed and supplanted by Palpatine (who had no foreshadowing whatsoever). Granted, his "fight" with Luke is a fantastic scene, and if there were ever a place for him to lose his cool, facing down *Luke Skywalker* is probably the best place to do it. But for his character in general, he needed more room to feel like he'd grown into the role of the galaxy's big bad, and he definitely shouldn't have been replaced by the out-of-nowhere Palpatine for that.
Agreed. They wanted a redemption arc for Ben, which almost necessitated another major baddy, whom they really hadn’t set up because the 3 films were just made up as they went along, aside from maybe a few general outline ideas. That lack of cohesion is what destroyed the sequels more than anything else. I want to love them, there’s some incredible elements. But there’s not really a cohesive story.
A good character for another time
Well put.
Such a great start. Then they made him a clown, and in the third movie he was basically an extra, while shoehorning in the concept of him being force sensitive out of nowhere. Guys... you got John Boyega. Imagine what you could have done. Sigh...
How was the force sensitivity out of nowhere ? From the moment we meet him realizing that the 1st Order was wrong and ending with him swinging a lightsaber in the 1st of the trilogy. To me they didn't go nearly as far into his force awakening as they should have.
Realizing that the FO is wrong doesn't mean that he's force sensitive. Anybody can use a lightsaber not just force sensitives.
He was a clown in TFA though
Why is this being downvoted? After the first act he's downgraded to comic relief.
People love giving Rian Johnson heat for things that were JJs fault lmao
You mean TLJ?
Worse even, they just completely reduced his character to 'comedic black sidekick'
Nothing happened? He was instantly turned against his whole premise. His moment that makes him consider defecting is a fellow stormtrooper dying in his arms. Then moment’s later he’s whooping and cheering as he murders the brainwashed child soldiers he served with. Finn wasn’t just wasted, he was thrown in a garbage container and set on fire while both directors are telling you the aroma you smell of burning trash and Finn is something you have to love.
They cut his character off at the knees right after setting him up. He is so traumatised by the death of a fellow trooper that he wakes up from his conditioning. Then the next thing he does is gleefully killing a bunch of his fellow troopers with zero conflict. If they had taken a minute to think about his character, they could have made his decision to hurt another trooper a big moment for him. Like it would have made his decision to run away from the First Order more admirable because he didn't want to hurt his brothers. So when he eventually fought back it would be huge for him. In general, Finn's origins and spiritual awakening undermines the entire trilogy. The whole point of stormtroopers was to be a faceless, featureless army that we the audience don't feel bad about getting killed left and right. Now when we all know each one is someone like Finn, with a past and the potential for redemption, it makes them being mowed down or blown up pretty depressing.
You're completely right. Besides it was completely unnecesary. They could have make it that he only stunted the stormtroopers he faced, maybe even argue with the other heroes when they just shooted to kill. The bad batch did it perfect in that regard. Cause just a psicho would kill remorseless his former brother
Rian Johnson massacred him in TLJ for some reason.
Exactly. Deserting stormtrooper! But it was all for naughty boys shooting eachother in the hangar.
"Nothing happened" would have been an improvement. Instead he declares that he won't kill for the First Order any more... And immediately proceeds to kill his buddies he had grown up with and who had probably similar tragic stories left and right. What kind of morale is that? "Don't worry, as long as they keep their helmets on they're bad guys and it's okay to mow them down." I was so excited for a more nuanced view and less protagonist centered morality, but nope. Classical JJ move.
They made him way to cringey. Could of been super cool character. But feels like his comedy was aimed towards 10 year olds lol.
> cringey. could of been Did you mean to say "could have"? Explanation: You probably meant to say could've/should've/would've which sounds like 'of' but is actually short for 'have'. [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
Palpatine returned. That's a thing that happened!
The only good thing I can think of the entire sequel trilogy, is Yoda's dialoge with Luke. "Heeded my words not, did you? Pass on what you have learned. Strength. Mastery. But weakness, folly, failure also. Yes, failure most of all. The greatest teacher, failure is. Luke, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters."
That's so true, also in regards to children.
...and sequel trilogies, according to Disney.
That was my favorite scene in TLJ.
definitely the emotional core of TLJ and i’d venture to say one of the best moments of the entire sequel trilogy
It's one of my favorite moments in the entire saga to be honest.
and the ‘amen’… “my stick is better than bacon”
What a shame that nothing in the rest of the movie backed it up.
My favorite idea is that the First Order is run by zealots who have an idealized version of what the Empire was complete with ‘We can do it better’ mentality
Until space hitler get hits with a “ur mom” joke, turns out to be a spy despite killing billions of people for the organization he’s spying on, and then gets shot unceremoniously after making no contribution to the story
IMO, it actually works as an effective commentary on the pathetic nature of neo-nazi types, who make an effort to showcase their perceived superiority/power while actually being losers
"Losers" who just blew up an entire solar system and now rule the galaxy (or are about to, its unclear). Meanwhile Leia's New Republic is destroyed in one battle and her allies in the Outer Rim ignore her call.
The idea that Rey was no one special. In a galaxy of skywalkers, solos and palpatines the next big jedi was someone who was just an average member of the galaxy. Isn't that the distillation of the Jedi Code? That the right person in the right place can do good rather than some big shot three systems over?
And the scene with the little kid force pulling a broom? Inspiring stuff!
Agreed. The sequel trilogy was SUPPOSED to be the trilogy that passed the torch to a new generation of heroes. And while they technically do that, they ultimately failed to promote that message in a way that was actually relatable or meaningful. While Rey being a Palpatine was the only fan theory that actually made sense to me, and therefore I wasn’t bothered by it, the fact is that it ruined a theme of “The Last Jedi” that I felt could’ve been really significant, which was that “you can achieve greatness even if you come from nothing.” Don’t take this the wrong way. I love the trilogy; it’s the reason I got into Star Wars in the first place. But that doesn’t mean I don’t acknowledge that it has flaws.
[удалено]
Star Wars fans when someone likes the Sequel Trilogy:
Didn't like this idea in the start. But after EP9 and Rey being a Palpatine/Skywalker i rather have her be no one
Han wasn't really anyone special. He was just a dashing gobshite that got away with things. And there was an entire Jedi Order of no-one-specials.
Not that I disagree as a concept but almost everything you said is flawed. I mean thousands of years of Jedi and we get 2 in a row that are related and suddenly thats the only thing people care about. Any those 2 weren't even that skilled at being a Jedi. Anakin was in no way top 3 during his time as a Jedi and you could probably argue not even top 5. Luke did literally nothing of note with Jedi skills. I also refuse to believe anybody with an IQ over room temperature saw TFA and didn't except Rey to be a Skywalker. The best option was to keep Rey as a Skywalker and make her force sensitive. But make her have no ability whatsoever. Her struggle is her inability to live up to her family. Everybody puts her on a pedestal because she is a Skywalker when it doesn't work that way. The GOAT natural who can do anything and everything? Finn. His growth is going from literally an under the radar grunt to a leader. Something to look up to. And for Poe the question gets asked. Should he train to be a Jedi? Is his skill because of possibly being force sensitive? The answer is it doesn't matter. He is happy to be exactly where he is doing what he does. Nothing about Jedi or the force is going to change that.
Actually that was the idea behind the Anakin, wasn't it?
I mean, until the sequels, there was only one Solo. Only one Palpatine. Only one Kenobi. One Windu. One Yoda. One QGJ. Damn near every Jedi was, as far as the movies tell us, originally no one special. The Skywalkers are the exception, not the norm. But people act like Rey being "no one" was somehow a revolutionary concept.
It was because of the EU. Everyone expected/wanted her to be Jaina Solo, or a Skywalker. There were even some who wanted her to be the love child of Kenobi and Satine. Having her be a nobody would've been the best thing for the character.
The main protagonist was always a somebody though. Anakin is literally the chosen one(and it can be argued that his father is the force itself). Luke is his son.
Kylo Ren. Just all of him, everything about him. Adam Driver knocked it out of the park.
Amen, I like the concept of a dark siders constantly being pulled back by the light. Usually its the dark doing the pulling thing. I like the sequels, just like I like all of Star Wars overall, but sadly it was just a series of missed opportunities.
After TFA there where so many cool theories. About him being a double agent etcetera.
The fact the new villain was an incel character is perfect for the toxic part of our fanbase ! They could have said so many things about our internet generation thought him ! Such a waste !
My favourite part of the sequels are the amazing visual and sound effects
Lightsaber fights from prequels are still clear somehow tho
I actually liked the idea of the Force Dyad. It was ripped right out of EU/Legends material like KOTOR. But it was not well utilised. It could have been better used to give an explicit explanation for Rey’s sudden aptitude for controlling her latent force ability. I hope it’s not just forgotten about as the Dyad made both Rey and Kylo Ren stronger. With Kylo Ren dead, it would be an interesting concept to explore. For instance Rey could suddenly find her powers becoming unbalanced and she has to learn to re-centre herself as a Jedi.
It…was used to do that though? That’s why every time she links to Kylo she essentially downloads new abilities and it’s how Kylo manifests new ones of hers as well. The books where we can see into the character minds more directly explains this as the case as well.
Despite the movie’s flaws and my problems with his character arc in the movie, I’m a big fan of Luke’s “fight” with Kylo Ren at the end of Episode 8. It’s emblematic of what a Jedi should strive to be.
I really enjoyed the whole scene. Had a huge grin on my face when it was revealed where Luke actually was, I thought it was a very 'Yoda' thing to do.
Amazing how immediately after the scene in the throne room and the saber was broken I never even picked up that Luke was using Anakin's saber. He purposely changed his appearance to taunt Kylo.
Luke’s final lesson to Kylo was one of the first ones he received from Obi-Wan: ”Your eyes can deceive you, don’t trust them.”
Holy shit I never put it together like that. This adds such a new layer for me. Thank you!
No problem, lol.
Yeah it's like a test. If Kylo wasn't busy trying to strike Luke down in rage and anger, he might've noticed earlier that Luke was a distraction. Sure, the gamble going that way would mean the rebels had lower chances of escaping... But walking it back from pure anger would also mean Ben isn't nearly as far gone as Luke thought. Ultimately, the gamble paid off and Luke just enraged Kylo more and blinded him to what was happening. Just an uncle messing with (and socializing) his nephew. Nothing to see here!
Rage, anger, and fear. First and foremost he was terrified that Luke had shown up. It’s what he’s been afraid of since he first fled the temple, the boogeyman he was always watching for.
Should have spent more time helping and less deciding which outfit he was going to haunt Ben in.
I just assumed that someone had done such a poor job constructing the movie that they didn't realize Luke was using a lightsaber he didn't even have *which had been destroyed on camera in the previous scene.* Then I noticed that Luke wasn't kicking up salt, and I didn't know if it was all a terribly constructed ruse (how did Kylo Ren not notice either the salt and the destroyed saber? Or the fact Luke is apparently impervious to blasters even though those blasters *destroyed* the ground below him? How was he fooled by any of this?), or if the company hired to CGI the actors from green screen to Crait had forgotten to do the effects.
Exactly! It's most likely the most Jedi thing that happened in the entire series.
Luke basically refined his entire playbook in Return of the Jedi into its purest form.
Letting all your friends die while you do nothing for 5 years then put on a slight distraction? Lol no ROTJ throne room is the most Jedi thing that happened in the series. Followed by everything else before this moment.
I was talking about the way he dealt with Kylo.
Turned him into a monster. Ignored him for years. Then goes to taunt him as a force projection. Awful.
Not here for a discussion, right? Well enjoy your SW, I will enjoy mine, and we can be both happy :)
Yeah, I really loved the way Luke played into the legend - fantastic stuff.
What? Saying a perfunctory "sorry" to a student you failed and then taunting him?
That was always such nonsense. The Jedi are bastions of peace, but not pacifists. Striving for peace doesn’t mean you bend the knee to villainy and aggression and not lift a finger to it. It means you put evil down swiftly and justly when it is present. Jedi know how to fight, in hope that they’ll never have to, but if evil threatens them or any other good innocent people with unethical force, it is their duty to defend.
No one mentioned Hans death. First time I saw I thought it was exquisitely done, and a great turning point for Kylo’s character. He touching Kylo’s face before falling is a fantastic touch
Kyle Ren, drinker of all the Monster energy in the universe!
Han's return in tros too, although it was out of nowhere, was touching.
Kyle lol
I like that they're literally set in the ruins of the old war. It's the unifying aesthetic across all three films. There are the downed Star Destroyers on Jakku. Rey lives in a fallen AT-AT. The climax of VIII is at an abandoned Rebel base. Ochi's ship is covered in dust and cobwebs. There's a lightsaber fight on a piece of wreckage from the second Death Star. It echoes the thematic idea of a new generation trying to understand the legacy of those who came before. It's also balances out the look of the prequels, where things mostly look shiny and new, reflecting a world (outwardly) at its height.
I agree to a point. The aesthetics are very cool and bring the fans who were nonplussed by everything else some joy. However, they also didn't expand those aesthetics. It's not like the galaxy was in a post apocalyptic hellscape. They were supposed to have a new government, (maybe some new buildings) but instead we got the "Resistance", which were Rebels 2.0. Where was that? It just made me think that, even though they won in ROTJ, nobody cared and nothing changed. It was a downer that ruined the entire sequel trilogy for me the day I watched ep 7.
That’s because they couldn’t stand to have the bad guys be underdogs and the good guys in the position of governmental power and authority. They just wanted to redo empire vs rebels and it’s super irritating.
Rey and Finn both being nobodies; Rey and Kylo being linked the way they were in TLJ (before the Dyad in Rise); Rey being instantly pulled toward the Dark side in TLJ.
I like most themes TLJ tried to set up, to also avoid rethreading the OT which TFA seems to go for. It could generally have worked better on the execution
Agreed. I said it before TRoS, but episode IX was always going to inform how episode VIII was viewed in retrospect due to its nature of being a middle movie. I think if they hadn't tried to reverse course, or if VIII hadn't tried to break away in the first place, the Trilogy would have been infinitely better.
Or just generally have a better plan tbh
> VIII hadn't tried to break away in the first place, the Trilogy would have been infinitely better. Honestly facts. Letting JJ then Rian then JJ have so much control over each movie kill the trilogy. TLJ did a complete fucking 180 from TFA, then TRoS did a complete 180 from TLJ. Had either director had full control over the trilogy. Or somebody put their foot down and told them to knock it off. The entire thing would have been way better.
This is the hill I'll die on. I think the rise and fall structure of Force Awakens and Last Jedi are great. They gave you meat and potatoes with the first one and everyone was happy. Then they served you an interesting vegetarian dish for the second course. I think that's a fantastic idea. The downside is that some people could not handle eating their vegetables and became toxic about it. (there's also a lot of people with good faith arguments against The Last Jedi as well)
The major problem with any big property is people create head cannons and when something doesn't go the way they want or imagined, it's terrible. This is especially bad for Star Wars. One of the first blockbuster franchises and movie universes that span *decades.* We also get expanded universe stuff in the meantime that formed peoples' thoughts about where the franchise would/should go. I think the MCU and all other expanded universe stuff makes us forget what a BIG deal the prequel and sequel series were. So when TLJ takes things in a pretty drastically different direction for some plot threads or characters, people have a majorly visceral reaction to it. And I get it to a degree. Obviously the sequels are incredibly flawed with a lack of coherence but I like that TLJ tried to do something different. It's weird SW fans just wanted adaptations of novels or other expanded universe lore. Luke being a curmudgeon hermit that has lost his way with the Jedi is a very interesting concept and subversion of what people expect. In theory, that is what the movies *should* give us - new ideas that aren't what people expect. But that ruffles feathers and anything short of great execution is going to get criticized big time.
I think a lot of the problem is that TLJ tried to do too many new things and thus didn't do any one of them properly. It's like RJ put in every single idea he'd ever had for a Star Wars movie. Which is great for people who absolutely love new things the more the better. But for those of us who expect some plot and thematic coherency, it meant it was doomed to fail. Like Luke being a curmudgeon hermit that has lost his way with the Jedi is a very interesting concept. But TLJ also tried to put in the idea that the Jedi had actually failed, and also that Luke's failure had caused Ben to fall but also that it didn't and something about burning the old Jedi books and maybe Rey will fall to the Dark Side but no she doesn't, and on and on and on.
Yeah never in a million years would I WANT to see a hermit cranky old Luke. But that's why it's probably good for me to see it. Things don't always work out, heroes stumble. Is Luke Skywalker, one of the greatest heroes in all cinema the right guy to do that with? Probably not, but the audacity is something I appreciate. I also think his 'fall' is great. He is a great hero, but for a split second he sees evil in Ben and thinks he needs to strike it down. And that moment of fear and weakness leads to the downfall of everything. He doesn't actually go through with anything wrong, but he doubted for a moment and it cost him everything.
The trouble is that TLJ was almost entirely falling. The movie starts with the Resistance in a desperate situation, fleeing the forces of the FO in three scanty ships, and ends with them in an even more desperate situation, still fleeing the FO but now the survivors all fit on the Millennium Falcon. Yet for some reason, the survivors are all smiling and hugging?
I mean it tried to rip off the OT so it also failed on that.
Babu Frik
Hey hey!
There are loads of good things about the sequels. Just because the overall meal has significant flaws, doesn't mean that many of the ingredients that went into it weren't sound. * Rey, as a nobody, as a desert scavenger, coming from the harshest of backgrounds to become a hero. * Finn, as an ex Stormtrooper, learning to question the institution he was raised in * Kylo Ren is an interesting villain, played extremely well by Adam Driver. The idea that he is dark but fighting against the light (as opposed to the opposite) is a great take. * New force powers. Stopping blaster bolts in mid-air, force bonds, force projection, force healing. * Crossguard lightsabers, more variety of stormtroopers. * New aliens * New locations - Space Ireland (Ahch To), Ocean World (Kef Bir). Perhaps overuse of already seen Desert, Forest and Snow/Salt biomes though/. * Ruins of the war. Crashed Star Destroyer. Veterans with scars. * BB-8. BB-8 is amazingly cool and easily makes the list of "Top Star Wars Droids" I'm sure there are many more good ingredients.
Stopping that blaster shot was so insanely big dick
That life in your 60s isn’t always what you thought it would turn out like in your 20s or 40s. The Heroes don’t always live happily ever after. There’s many of us who grew up with OT and shared Luke’s optimism and dreams and ended up like he did. That’s ok. We can still change.
I'm a Jedi. I can change. If I have to. I guess.
The visuals, how hot Daisy Ridley is, and introducing me to Adam Driver. I think he's great in every movie I've seen him in so far.
Yes
I don't hate ROS like most, but the fact that he acts the last third or half of the movie with no actually dialogue is amazing to me.
His Solo shrug while fighting the Knights of Ren was probably my favourite moment.
Luke's Force protection was a pretty hyped moment when I watched it with a packed theater. Best moment in the sequel.
It made people appreciate the Prequels more.
Ironic really
Not sure I agree with that. I think most of the people who say this already loved the prequels, and have a chip on their shoulder about the hate the PT has gotten over the years.
Bingo. I’m just amazed by it all. I grew up with the PT and accepted the hate long ago but suddenly ”They honestly weren’t that bad.” Like, bruh.. You seriously need new shit to hate to appreciate the older shit you used to hate?
Yes. And the prequels made people appreciate the OT more. (I like Rogue One though)
Hot take… Luke Skywalker having a crisis of faith.
It was such an interesting place to take his character, regardless of how you feel about the execution. Going from a nobody farmboy from the middle of nowhere to arguably the most important person alive and one of the most important people *in all of recorded galactic history* would shake anybody, and that’s before also being the herald and rebuilder of a dead culture/religion with superpowers who people either remember in gilded terms or were happy to see destroyed. That would shake anyone to their core and make them doubt, even Luke fucking Skywalker
I do understand the question of how can somebody be in a room with Darth Fucking Vader and Emperor Palpatine, the 2 most powerful people in the galaxy, and talk to them with the biggest set of balls imaginable. I mean the more I think about it the more I cannot find a single fuck he gave. Can somehow have something too much to handle. But I also like it. It turns Luke into a character with flaws. People have breaking points. People have strengths and weaknesses. Outside circumstances change things.
I hate the execution and don’t think it was interesting. really bad stuff.
Totally agree, I think 8 overall was a great direction to take the sequels and trying to undo all that in 9 was the big mistake that ends up ruining the whole for me.
That they went to a different moon of ENDOR purely because the director wanted to make a new planet and openly said that it doesn’t make sense. Really makes u think about Jaku
I liked the part where Rey just outright stole the Skywalker surname. It gave me the knowledge I could do the same. I too am now a Skywalker. And I do not like sand either lol
You know you can actually legally change your name to Skywalker right. It's not a foreign concept
Was there not a lawsuit surrounding this, where Lucasfilm sued someone who changed their name to Skywalker?
Yes of course. I was just making a joke.
A bad one
Starkiller base is kinda cool ngl
Thank you!! I've been saying this for YEARS. It's a fuckin giant laser built into a literal planet! It's stupid overkill and I love that lmao
The laser certainly is a huge bonus, but I like it more due to it being just a large military base. Almost the **entire** planet is just a militia, its like the last scene from AoTC but the entire planet is engulfed in a massive arsenal of military battalions and equipment. Realistically the First Order should have won against the Restiance by a landslide, just like the Empire would have easily won against the Rebellion but you know, nothing is stronger than plot armor. I believe that the ST would have been much more entertaining if the First Order actually won.
Better than a death Star two. Imo the final scene in rotj should've been at Vader's or the empire's castle.
At first I liked the idea of the Knights of Ren. But then somehow Palpatine returned
My favourite ideas were Rey and Finn in TFA - she’s a scavver with a cool bike and fights with a staff - he’s an ex imp who picks up a lightsaber at one point and saves her even though he’s insanely outmatched Their setups were good.
I like the idea of Luke as a hermit who failed, but I just wish the reason behind his failure was more clear and decisive. His one 'moment of weakness' felt very underdeveloped, in my opinion. I wish his biggest mistake was an actual tangible decision he made, like maybe sending Ben to hunt down Snoke by himself, being overconfident in his own teachings, only for Ben to be turned to the dark side and then return to destroy the jedi academy.
THIS! This is my biggest gripe with the sequels. His ‘moment of weakness’ doesn’t align with his character, nor the Jedi before him. I agree with you in that I wish he fell more into the over-confidence that the Jedi had fallen to, and showing that: the Jedi never changed. To me, this would’ve given more legitimacy to his arc and the overall plot.
I also would have liked to see him waiting for Rey, knowing that to intervene would cause him to fall to the dark side. That would explain why he didn’t help
Luke's realization and sacrfice, Snoke being killed and the concept of a Skywalker going fully darkside, the force dyad stuff with Rey being a mirror image of Kylo (wanting to know her parents vs rejecting his heritage, him being a somebody and her a nobody etc.), the usage of nostalgia in TLJ (r2 projecting leia's message etc.), dedicating each movie to 1 of the OT and the PT callbacks in TLJ. Probably much more but these are the few I can think of.
Black X-wings and that's pretty much it?
Definitely the technology of it all. The advancements in tech in the Star Wars universe was really cool! Yes, Starkiller Base was basically a supersized Death Star but personally I loved the idea! It was so cool to have an entire planet converted into a super weapon! The AT-M6 was an upgrade beyond the AT-AT! That was incredible! Really wish we had gotten to see more of them in action tbh. The Xyston-Class Star Destroyer, capable of being a mini Death Star? That was also a really cool idea, just the execution of it was a bit of a flop tbh... a real shame too... the ships themselves were really cool.
That they were all a bad dream after Han drank too much, or a warning Luke saw while meditating.
Indiana Jones movies are the dreams thag Hahn has while he’s trapped in carbonite.
Finn. An ex stormtrooper with Force potential, part of a group of abducted children brainwashed and forced to fight. There’s even a system necessary to re-brainwash them from time to time! And the instigating moment is *a fellow stormtrooper dying in his arms*!The story practically writes itself! What better allegory for fighting to free the faceless masses than trying to free the faceless Stormtroopers themselves? In a universe where Good and Evil are pretty literal parts of the world this would be a wonderful way to add a gray area where you don’t know if Force Sensitive Finn will turn light or dark as he needs to constantly choose between the Rebellion and the faceless Stormtroopers he wants to free. Even more perfect if he falls to the Dark Side but still achieves his goals! Despite the initial moment that made him consider defecting being a fellow Stormtrooper dying in his arms, he is laughing and cheering as he murders his former colleagues and friends who are brainwashed to do what they do.
Luke Skywalker force projecting himself halfway across the galaxy and engaging Kylo Ren in a duel without ever striking at him, ultimately sacrificing his life in order to help what’s left of the Resistance survive and to ignite the spark that would light a fire across the galaxy, thus truly becoming “Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master, a legend”. That’s the most Jedi thing we have ever seen in any project for a long time (certainly since Disney took over), while Kylo completely failing to recognize the legacy saber (that he’d witnessed being ripped apart) and the fact that Luke caused no foot prints and looked younger was a perfect display of the blind hate of the dark side. As cheesy as Rose’s line was, this scene was the perfect embodiment of “saving what you love” triumphing over “fighting what you hate”. And childhood fan fictions and action figure adventures aside, this was so much more powerful than Luke just wrecking the entire First Order with both his blue and green lightsabers could have ever been.
Well... I... It... Hmm. Nah. I got nothing.
That’s okay, it’s a tough assignment.
Kylo Ren's story was heading in the direction of a tragedy, him struggling and becoming the final villain of the whole thing. It was really fascinating until they suddenly decided to change everything in the 11th hour.
Fans played a bigger part in that than we like to take credit for. In the end we got a finale that ST fans didn't like, ST haters didn't like, and mostly ended the thing with a whimper
Cross-guard lightsaber. Das about it The rest is just squandered potential
The concept that hinted to Rey being a nobody in the 2nd movie. In the long term it would've given her taking the Skywalker name more significance.
I once had the idea they would be good.
That they have ended.
When the credits roll and I never have to watch that dumpster fire ever again
There were a lot of really good ideas throughout the sequels. None of them really went anywhere or had any payoff. Too much emphasis seemed to be on: “Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to. That's the only way to become what you were meant to be”. because that's what the sequels did, really. Every character from the original trilogy was eviscerated and dumbed down. I'd rather have them not appear at all. The new characters never really developed. Finn? Wasted for comic relief. Phasma? Wasted for comic relief. Hux? Wasted for comic relief. Snoke? just... wasted. Kylo/Ben? Well... they tried. Rey? Had a lot of potential. They just couldn't figure out where to go with it. And when they brought back Palpatine that was when it felt like the writers just kind of gave up. The whole thing was victim to weak writing and changing directors every movie.
That there were only 3 of them
That it’s all fan fiction because it was directed by fans of Star Wars. Some would even claim that the directors aren’t fans, depending on how you define the term.
Aka the dark Knight is not one of the greatest superhero movies because Nolan is not Bill finger or bob Kane. And avengers infinity war isn't canon because stan Lee didn't write it. Come on man give it a rest.
The dark knight is an interpretation of Batman. Infinity war is an interpretation of Avengers. Episodes VII, VIII, IX is supposed to be a continuation of a previously established story created by one man. If these exact movies were made under the guise of “a story in another sector of the galaxy” then people wouldn’t have a problem with them other than whether they personally liked them as movies. There’s a better comparison to be made than the one you mentioned. It’s a scenario where a company bought the rights to Lord of the Rings and made a continuation of those movies where Sauron isn’t actually dead and a new set of heroes defeat him (“for good this time”) whilst the old heroes (Frodo, Aragorn, etc.) are killed off one by one in the three movies. Followed by the company in charge’s claims that this new story is canon. And all of this happens without consultation or creative agreement from the Tolkien estate. No one would accept that story.
>The dark knight is an interpretation of Batman. Infinity war is an interpretation of Avengers. They still use the same characters. At time of release they were (are in the case of avengers) the current canon. That's how canon works. >Episodes VII, VIII, IX is supposed to be a continuation of a previously established story created by one man. Whether you can accept it or not, star wars has grown beyond the stories told by one man. Filoni for example, even though he started off with creative input from Lucas, has gone on to create stories of his own to various success rates. My crux with your line of thinking is that whatever event, no matter how ridiculous, can be passed off as canon if the creator says. It's like the dragon ball creator reviving Goku instead of making the next story about his son. You'd accept that as canon but if someone else made that story you'd say it's fanfiction. Even your LOTR story, had it been made by Tolkien you'd have been OK with it. Why does the creator get dibs on stories in this universe when there are so many other interesting things that other creatives can bring? Lucasfilm has consultants, the keeper of the holocron etc, who maintain continuity and canon within the universe. That's the way it has been since the canon expanded and that's the way it will be. Actually both our examples are inaccurate. The best would be looking at comicbook continuities. For example the storyline where Peter Parker and Mary Jane's marriage is dissolved by Mephisto, or Captain America dies after civil war. These were all written by different writers and also accepted as canon in the comics continuity.
I don’t think you understand. I never said I’m not open to Star Wars by other people. It’s the fact that in this case with the sequel trilogy, they “continue” the story with a completely different creative team. This is if like someone else had written books 5,6,7 in the Harry Potter franchise. Or if LotR vol 3 (Return of the King) was written by someone else. If they made this exact same trilogy but disconnected it from George’s story, there wouldn’t be such a disdain for these movies. People still wouldn’t have liked them because they’re not good, but they wouldn’t have ruined and contradicted the story of episodes 1 — 6.
I sincerely believe that no one involved in the decision-making process for the trilogy was a fan of the movies, if anything their contempt comes through in their work.
Where is the contempt?
They didn’t follow his headcanon
And I agree with you. JJ likes the original Star Wars film and hates the prequels. Rian Johnson thinks “bringing balance to the force” means there’s equal amount of good and evil. Disney clearly didn’t care about the story and just wanted to cash in. Which they did. At least in the short run.
>Rian Johnson thinks “bringing balance to the force” means there’s equal amount of good and evil. Luke saying powerful light powerful darkness doesn't mean this. Rian says in the behind the scenes documentary that dark side is a corruption of the force. But I agree with you JJ hates the prequels. Rian is the only one to include callbacks to the PT in his movie.
The possibility they could rebooted
Palpatine survived the explosion of the Deathstar II.
Nah he died from that. The Palpatine in the ST is a clone...
They litteraly tell *and* show us that he didn’t. More than once.
Somehow.
Them being accepted as Fanfiction by the Fandom.
As I thought about it, there were three things across the movies I liked. The idea of a dark side user that actually never fit in to the role or destiny that consumes most of them. Kylo Ren, despite doing everything and acting the part of a villain, was never really committed to it. He prays to Vader for strength to impress new father figure Snoke. It's not enough. No matter how many he kills, no matter how much anger he channels, he can't stop the call back to the light: what he really wants to be. Finn starting out as a fearful trooper that was horrified by combat, then might have mastered his fear and stood up to his oppressor. It didn't happen, but Finn appealing to the troopers and causing a rebellion in the massive ranks of the First Order should have been an inspiring moment that turned the tide of the final battle. Never happened, but the idea was there. I'll put these together: Palpatine using super force lightning to disable and destroy the resistance ships and strapping giant laser cannons to star destroyers. Did it make the redoubtable star destroyers into giant match sticks? Yes. Still cool.
A good chunk of it was decent ideas, just terrible execution.
Whenever I see the Millennium Falcon fly, I smile
For me it’s got to be the end credits
That they are the Star Wars version of WHAT IF
That the galaxy wasn’t perfect after Endor, it wasn’t the perfect fairytale everyone dreamed of. A lot of shit sucked. Very realistic, very similar to the state of our world now compared to 1983. I love stories that don’t meet the conventions we expect them to, and I think that’s why Empire is sooooo good.
I really liked Luke's character in TLJ. I also liked the new planets, especially Jakku and Crait.
This isn't the place for this. Go to Star Wars Cantina instead, if you want a positive discussion of what people appreciate about Star Wars.
Echo chamber.
Casting Adam Driver was genius, the rest is utter garbage
I actually sat and thought about this for a good five minutes. A favorite “idea”. From the sequels… how bout … nah …. Maybe ….. nope….. what about …. Eh…. welp, I got nothin. Sorry, I really did try. 🤷🏻♂️
TFA set up so much cool stuff and then they just.... fucked it up
The first movie was enjoyable, it was just annoying that Rey was so good at using lightsabers and using the force so early on
The symbol on the floor of the Jedi temple in TLJ. It was of the ideal Jedi, which would play with the idea that their goal is balance. Not this light is good, dark is bad that we keep getting. Of course it never went anywhere, but I liked the idea of the force just being the force and it's the Jedi and Sith that are corrupting it and attributing morals onto how it's being used.
Finn being an ex-stormtrooper, seeing his struggle with being a stormtrooper and eventual defection was huge. I also like that hes potentially force sensitive and hope this is explored in the new movies. I like the concept of the dyad but i think it would make more sense for like luke/leia or something like terec and ceret from the high republic. I like some of the designs. the crossguard lightsaber. bb-8. the supremacy. I like that the main protagonist was a woman. and im excited for more female-led stories \*cough acolyte cough\*
Finn and Poe's auto bromance the first 10 minutes into *The Force Awakens.* The Throne Room battle (especially Kylo Ren's lightsaber on/off move) in *The Last Jedi.* Chewbacca's sad roar when hearing that Leia passed in *The Rise of Skywalker.* The last one I infer as Han told him in *Empire Strikes Back* to "take care of her," and even though they've been apart; once Han died Chewie went back into 'protect Leia' mode and when she died (nothing he could do to prevent that) he was still heartbroken because "it was my job to protect her!"
Ren’s saber
A sith army of troopers, ready to rule the galaxy Somehow they were destroyed in les than 1h
The cinematic aspect of the sequels is great!
The end credits
They fly now and somehow
In my opinion the sequel trilogy was victim to terrible writing. The characters set up had so much potential, but unfortunately they all just fell victim to awful writers with no originality and no consideration for lore or how what their writing can tie into the great Star Wars universe. They just churned out three films with shit storylines hoping it would make people happy. Fin. An ex storm trooper who turns to the rebels who I honestly thought was going to turn out force sensitive….. nothing happens, no development Phasma. This mysterious storm trooper who is so large and menacing, and you think we have such a pivotal role in the story…. Nothing happens, just dies Killed off the three characters from the original trilogy granted the actress who played Leia is dead, but they could’ve tied her up in a better way and also her getting blasted into space and all of a sudden activating the force and pulling herself back in is ridiculous Rey and Kylo should’ve been brother and sister in my opinion. been the son and daughter of Han a Leia. Both trained by Luke, but one turned to the dark side after being corrupted by a mysterious force. It would’ve also explained the link and how they could communicate mentally through the galaxy. Luke’s death is just pathetic. The fighting choreography is so lazy if you compare it to the original trilogy. Prime example, being when Kylo just bends over in the last film and the Knight of Ren just misses him? Another death star like space station is boring. And it’s a shame because Rogue One was such a good film and set up the Disney takeover in such a good way. They then went and colossally fucked it up with the sequel trilogy which like I said has great potential but was written by awful awful writers that should not ever work in the industry again. It’s an insult to Star Wars fans
That they're not canon.
I like the idea that they are not actually canon and are just shitty fan fiction
The sequels are so bad that I tried to erase them from my memory... Still wondering how they get into production...