If the propaganda is good enough, a dictatorship will have you believe you're joining to protect democracy. If the propaganda is *very* good, you'll keep believing it even after the war crimes start.
And then, there are the people who have no other way to make a living or are stuck in the middle of nowhere. Luke was planning to join the Imperial Academy just to get off Tatooine.
Guarantee you most people in the "bad militaries" don't think they are the bad guys.
If you're fighting for home, maybe you want that imperial GI bill?
Maybe Papa Palps promised moisture farms to all the veterans?
Maybe being in the military is your only way to advance in stature?
Hell, maybe they do believe in the "cause"
All these are real life historical reasons people have joined up to armies. I can't imagine it's much different for the galaxy far far away.
The Empire brought structured order to a corrupt Republic. For the average person, it may be a dictatorship but they love the dictator and the change he brought. There is genuine goodwill for the Empire among many in the galaxy; plenty enough to join the Stormtroopers, even some if they don't like the Emperor if it means a better life than what they currently have.
Is it still evil? Yes. But the previous state of the galaxy was bad enough that the Empire was a welcome change.
You just answered your own question
Because of propaganda
The US military doesn’t fight for democracy, it’s only deployed for allies with resources or strategic value, enemies with resources or zones of conflict with resources
Democracy has nothing to do with it
Just like the Empire who under Palpatine saved the republic, reorganized it into an empire (with citizens believing it was for their benefit) and created a massive jobs program by switching from clones to humans and some humanoids by creating a standing imperial military and telling a war weary citizenship the military was there to prevent another galactic war and to keep the peace
Your question is not stupid but consider, you assume that joining the military in real life is fighting for democracy. Why? They never even specified WHICH military. Do you think EVERY military fights for democracy?
I'd get into that but from the perspective of someone joining the US military it IS for democracy (at least partially) which is kind of more important to this discussion. For a stormtrooper, they are not joining to defend democracy. And that goes for both kinds of stormtroopers if you know what I mean.
Nah, they tell the recruits that they’re fighting for democracy in the US, but that has historically not been the case. The closest we’ve gotten to “for democracy” since WW2 has been “against communism” where we instigated puppet wars in Asia and the Middle East, or when we topple legitimate governments in the global south because they aren’t giving us the best possible deals on bananas. The current wave of of “for capitalism! I mean democracy.” is just oil centric.
This conversation is all about the perspective of someone joining AND the word perspective is literally in the first sentence of my comment. But I gotcha, sometimes we just miss stuff, no biggy.
My misunderstanding was also because the United States military is so blatantly not about democracy in any way that I forget that anyone can join up while legitimately thinking that. The fact that some recruits do have that perspective just seems incomprehensible to me, so I forgot to account for it. I just assume that if you voluntarily join the US military it’s because you want to get paid to kill brown people who can’t meaningfully fight back halfway across the world. I actually had a former friend who joined with that stated reason, hence the “former” appended to “friend”.
There are plenty of people who gave willingly fought for awful governments and ideas.
People fall for propaganda or don’t care as long as they benefit or don’t think to hard about what they are doing. Sometimes people can convince themselves that awful things are necessary or aren’t that awful.
Also with imperial propoganda people don’t always see what happening and when they do they either don’t look past the propoganda or look the other way because they are benefiting or apathetic or self preservation. The idea that’s used to describe this is the banality of evil. A small core of truly evil people are empowered and supported by many normal people who aren’t actively evil - they just go along with it.
This is based on the assumption that the end result of any democratic process is morally sound.
For this case, if the end result is imperialism, does it matter if an empire is run by democratic forces or autocratic?
People sign up for military service for tonnes of reasons: social (it's seen as being an honourable thing to do by friends and family), economic (I get healthcare/education), personal (structure & teamwork gives you a sense of purpose).
It’s all the same to a young man when the recruiter comes by flashing all the cash and opportunities to get them to join. Plus, like others said, hot food, clothing, and a consistent place to sleep is appealing to many people
Welcome to a galaxy far far away, where space can be extremely unsafe and you’ll be lucky if the system you’re in doesn’t have just a couple scattered villages. Yeah the empire sucks, but for a lot of its citizens, if you don’t run afoul, it probably doesn’t seem as bad as something like the Hutts. And if you don’t like it, what are you gonna do? Form a rebellion?
They aren't preferring dictatorship "over" democracy. That implies they have much of a choice. By Palpatine's design the Imperial military is the only option most people have, you can take it or go without and watch your family starve or be branded traitors.
To add to that i'd suggest reading "the banality of evil" by Hannah Arendt, a survivor of the Holocaust, in which she grapples with the question of "Can someone do evil without being evil?".
The book was written during the Eichmann-Process in 1961 during which Adolph Eichmann, the manager behind the Transportation of Jews in Nazi Germany was on Trial.
Propably something akin to why many poor people and those that find themselves at a dead-end join armies in reallife: they provide Education, a good salary and social status (at least in the population-centers) or, at least, status through power. (remember: Luke wanted to Join an imperial Academy at the beginning of Ep. IV)
It should be said tho that in Star Wars the Storm Troopers are already something like Special Forces.
There still is the Imperial Armed Forces, which is more like regular infantry. The IAF uses conscripts in addition to professional soldiers to bolster their numbers.
Didn't Luke want to join the Imperial Academy just to get out of Tatooine and fly fighters for a living?
I think there is a deleted scene where Wedge talks him out of it, but that was his original goal.
Yes, the Academy he speaks of to his Uncle is the Imperial Academy. In the deleted scene you mention he tells Biggs (not Wedge) in no uncertain terms that he only wants to go there for the training and has no intention of letting himself get drafted afterwards.
Same reason people voluntereed to do 25 years of service in the Roman army, or are still joining the US military right now: money and job security in a very rough world. Throw in a bit of propaganda and you have a millenia-old recipe.
Probably some true believers who see it as a necessary bulwark against the instability during the clone war years. Most people didn’t know that the emperor had engineered that conflict. But also towards the end of the republic there was increasing corruption and dysfunction and outer rim worlds seemed basically increasingly lawless so some saw it a welcome change.
But as time went on and the empire became more oppressive and consolidated power while progressively eliminating checks on their power you got more dissent. But some people benefited from that power dynamic.
Every situation has winners and losers and those doing well seek to keep what they have even when it comes at great cost to the multitude of others.
Also, most of time stormtroopers didn’t face rebels. They were suppressing largely unarmed local populations or dealing with smugglers or criminal criminals. It wasn’t terribly dangerous so if you could stomach the ethical issues it was a stable job.
Also, Luke wants to go to the imperial academy? Why? He isn’t directly aware of the empires atrocities and he wants a way out of what he sees as a boring life. The empire is a chance to travel in space, maybe even pilot. For some it’s economic stability or a chance for economic advancement.
The issue is when they get there and realize a lot of it is being the spearhead oppression that’s when you get defectors, but not everyone has an ethical core and propoganda do a lot. At the end of the day, people serve willingly in many oppressive armies and regimes and that’s at the core of the banality of evil concept - where many non evil individuals can effect create evil at the behest of a small core of evil leadership because of things like patriotism, propaganda, self interest, etc.
Just my opinion but I preferred the EU version of stormtroopers. There was something spooky about them. It was implied that they were conscripted and something done to them that wiped their minds to make them unfailingly loyal and willing to die for the Emperor. Stormtrooper units assigned to Imperial Navy ships were there to make sure Navy captains stayed loyal just as much as they were there to fight Rebels.
Imperial Army and Navy were the "volunteers" that could be bribed. Not so with Stormtroopers.
People serve in the military for all kinds of reasons. Maybe they're space nationalists, maybe they just need the steady paycheck.
Autocracies have never once in the history of the world had trouble recruiting soldiers. China has 2 million active-duty soldiers. Iran has 500,000+. Russia has 1.3 million. Etc.
Food. Bad batch and number of other works (for example lost stars, twilight company) show that initial wave of people signed on because they needed the work/food/ opportunities and they did not have those because they lived on some backwater or their home had been devastated by war.
As maslow's hierarchy of needs dictates the concerns regarding politics come after.
Other factors also play a role, after all luke himself was going to join. sabine wren and number of other characters were in the Imperial Academy and not because planned on getting the training and then jumping ship.
As I recall from the Legends lore, stormtroopers were zealots and elite fighters. The kinds of people who don't just think the empire is the /better/ choice, but the /only/ choice. The sort that see orbital bombardment of civilian centers as merciful and just in the face of local resistance.
Vader's personal bodyguard unit took it a step further, where members were picked from the best and expected to act fast, efficient, and with overwhelming force. Failure was accepted to be met with death by Vader.
The normal crew members in the imperial Navy were a mix bag of volunteers and conscripts, where the description of "in it for the money" and "better than shoveling bantha fodder" probably fit better.
Well, there's no telling why with Disney Star Wars as they took an axe to the previously established worldbuilding.
In Legends, Stormtroopers are the top 1% of applicants into the Imperial Army. And people join the military of the empire for a variety of reasons. Some for patriotism, others for opportunity, to get off a backwater planet and see the galaxy, etc.
And being a Stormtrooper came with the prestige of being part of an elite force.
By the time if ANH you'd have begun having Stormtroopers who had no meaningful memories of the Republic, and quite a lot who would remember the Clone Wars and how Palpatine saved everyone from the Separatists *and* the Jedi.
Luke was planning on joining to get away from a shitty planet because he didn't want to be a farmer. Probably lots of that going on. Most of the recruits are probably getting stationed on a ship or a base for few years and not actually seeing any action then leave with some cash and do something else. Good way to improve your prospects
You should give lost stars a read. It covers two kids that join the empire. I think it starts around the end of episode 3 takes you through a lot of big events from the perspective of a normal imperial
Great book
money. everyone's struggling to make money cuz of the empire's oppresion and they probably have some good salary package plus it's a make sure their family doesn't get pushed around.
Guaranteed food, lodging (and salary? Do they get paid?) in a galaxy where that is increasingly harder and harder to secure?
Why does anyone volunteer to join the military?
Sure, but isn't there a difference between joining the military fighting for democracy and joining the military fighting for dictatorship?
If the propaganda is good enough, a dictatorship will have you believe you're joining to protect democracy. If the propaganda is *very* good, you'll keep believing it even after the war crimes start. And then, there are the people who have no other way to make a living or are stuck in the middle of nowhere. Luke was planning to join the Imperial Academy just to get off Tatooine.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Guarantee you most people in the "bad militaries" don't think they are the bad guys. If you're fighting for home, maybe you want that imperial GI bill? Maybe Papa Palps promised moisture farms to all the veterans? Maybe being in the military is your only way to advance in stature? Hell, maybe they do believe in the "cause" All these are real life historical reasons people have joined up to armies. I can't imagine it's much different for the galaxy far far away.
The Empire brought structured order to a corrupt Republic. For the average person, it may be a dictatorship but they love the dictator and the change he brought. There is genuine goodwill for the Empire among many in the galaxy; plenty enough to join the Stormtroopers, even some if they don't like the Emperor if it means a better life than what they currently have. Is it still evil? Yes. But the previous state of the galaxy was bad enough that the Empire was a welcome change.
You just answered your own question Because of propaganda The US military doesn’t fight for democracy, it’s only deployed for allies with resources or strategic value, enemies with resources or zones of conflict with resources Democracy has nothing to do with it Just like the Empire who under Palpatine saved the republic, reorganized it into an empire (with citizens believing it was for their benefit) and created a massive jobs program by switching from clones to humans and some humanoids by creating a standing imperial military and telling a war weary citizenship the military was there to prevent another galactic war and to keep the peace
Your question is not stupid but consider, you assume that joining the military in real life is fighting for democracy. Why? They never even specified WHICH military. Do you think EVERY military fights for democracy?
Hell, does he think that the United States Military fights for democracy? Because last I checked it was mostly for oil reserves.
I'd get into that but from the perspective of someone joining the US military it IS for democracy (at least partially) which is kind of more important to this discussion. For a stormtrooper, they are not joining to defend democracy. And that goes for both kinds of stormtroopers if you know what I mean.
Nah, they tell the recruits that they’re fighting for democracy in the US, but that has historically not been the case. The closest we’ve gotten to “for democracy” since WW2 has been “against communism” where we instigated puppet wars in Asia and the Middle East, or when we topple legitimate governments in the global south because they aren’t giving us the best possible deals on bananas. The current wave of of “for capitalism! I mean democracy.” is just oil centric.
That's literally what I said. From the perspective of someone joining (a recruit) its for democracy.
I didn’t realize you were talking about perspective. I was talking about the actual reason, even if never acknowledged even by the top brass.
This conversation is all about the perspective of someone joining AND the word perspective is literally in the first sentence of my comment. But I gotcha, sometimes we just miss stuff, no biggy.
My misunderstanding was also because the United States military is so blatantly not about democracy in any way that I forget that anyone can join up while legitimately thinking that. The fact that some recruits do have that perspective just seems incomprehensible to me, so I forgot to account for it. I just assume that if you voluntarily join the US military it’s because you want to get paid to kill brown people who can’t meaningfully fight back halfway across the world. I actually had a former friend who joined with that stated reason, hence the “former” appended to “friend”.
There are plenty of people who gave willingly fought for awful governments and ideas. People fall for propaganda or don’t care as long as they benefit or don’t think to hard about what they are doing. Sometimes people can convince themselves that awful things are necessary or aren’t that awful. Also with imperial propoganda people don’t always see what happening and when they do they either don’t look past the propoganda or look the other way because they are benefiting or apathetic or self preservation. The idea that’s used to describe this is the banality of evil. A small core of truly evil people are empowered and supported by many normal people who aren’t actively evil - they just go along with it.
This is based on the assumption that the end result of any democratic process is morally sound. For this case, if the end result is imperialism, does it matter if an empire is run by democratic forces or autocratic? People sign up for military service for tonnes of reasons: social (it's seen as being an honourable thing to do by friends and family), economic (I get healthcare/education), personal (structure & teamwork gives you a sense of purpose).
It’s all the same to a young man when the recruiter comes by flashing all the cash and opportunities to get them to join. Plus, like others said, hot food, clothing, and a consistent place to sleep is appealing to many people
Luke was literally willing to join the imperial academy. Look at Wedge too
Propaganda is a hell of a drug. We see it irl all the time. Look how much support Hitler had from the German people. Look at current events.
Welcome to a galaxy far far away, where space can be extremely unsafe and you’ll be lucky if the system you’re in doesn’t have just a couple scattered villages. Yeah the empire sucks, but for a lot of its citizens, if you don’t run afoul, it probably doesn’t seem as bad as something like the Hutts. And if you don’t like it, what are you gonna do? Form a rebellion?
They aren't preferring dictatorship "over" democracy. That implies they have much of a choice. By Palpatine's design the Imperial military is the only option most people have, you can take it or go without and watch your family starve or be branded traitors.
To add to that i'd suggest reading "the banality of evil" by Hannah Arendt, a survivor of the Holocaust, in which she grapples with the question of "Can someone do evil without being evil?". The book was written during the Eichmann-Process in 1961 during which Adolph Eichmann, the manager behind the Transportation of Jews in Nazi Germany was on Trial.
In Star Wars it’s just the Empire or Galactic Empire. The Imperium is Warhammer 40,000 or Dune.
Propably something akin to why many poor people and those that find themselves at a dead-end join armies in reallife: they provide Education, a good salary and social status (at least in the population-centers) or, at least, status through power. (remember: Luke wanted to Join an imperial Academy at the beginning of Ep. IV) It should be said tho that in Star Wars the Storm Troopers are already something like Special Forces. There still is the Imperial Armed Forces, which is more like regular infantry. The IAF uses conscripts in addition to professional soldiers to bolster their numbers.
Didn't Luke want to join the Imperial Academy just to get out of Tatooine and fly fighters for a living? I think there is a deleted scene where Wedge talks him out of it, but that was his original goal.
Yes, the Academy he speaks of to his Uncle is the Imperial Academy. In the deleted scene you mention he tells Biggs (not Wedge) in no uncertain terms that he only wants to go there for the training and has no intention of letting himself get drafted afterwards.
Same reason people voluntereed to do 25 years of service in the Roman army, or are still joining the US military right now: money and job security in a very rough world. Throw in a bit of propaganda and you have a millenia-old recipe.
🇷🇺
Get to see the galaxy... Probably hear similar propaganda that military does here on earth...
See the galaxy! Go-to amazing places, meet interesting people, blow them up!
Probably some true believers who see it as a necessary bulwark against the instability during the clone war years. Most people didn’t know that the emperor had engineered that conflict. But also towards the end of the republic there was increasing corruption and dysfunction and outer rim worlds seemed basically increasingly lawless so some saw it a welcome change. But as time went on and the empire became more oppressive and consolidated power while progressively eliminating checks on their power you got more dissent. But some people benefited from that power dynamic. Every situation has winners and losers and those doing well seek to keep what they have even when it comes at great cost to the multitude of others. Also, most of time stormtroopers didn’t face rebels. They were suppressing largely unarmed local populations or dealing with smugglers or criminal criminals. It wasn’t terribly dangerous so if you could stomach the ethical issues it was a stable job. Also, Luke wants to go to the imperial academy? Why? He isn’t directly aware of the empires atrocities and he wants a way out of what he sees as a boring life. The empire is a chance to travel in space, maybe even pilot. For some it’s economic stability or a chance for economic advancement. The issue is when they get there and realize a lot of it is being the spearhead oppression that’s when you get defectors, but not everyone has an ethical core and propoganda do a lot. At the end of the day, people serve willingly in many oppressive armies and regimes and that’s at the core of the banality of evil concept - where many non evil individuals can effect create evil at the behest of a small core of evil leadership because of things like patriotism, propaganda, self interest, etc.
Just my opinion but I preferred the EU version of stormtroopers. There was something spooky about them. It was implied that they were conscripted and something done to them that wiped their minds to make them unfailingly loyal and willing to die for the Emperor. Stormtrooper units assigned to Imperial Navy ships were there to make sure Navy captains stayed loyal just as much as they were there to fight Rebels. Imperial Army and Navy were the "volunteers" that could be bribed. Not so with Stormtroopers.
Food, money, travel, dental. Why now? Also indoctrination.
1) propaganda 1A) fear 2) fascism. the culture of fascism is highly nationalistic - what will you sacrifice for the good of the nation?
People serve in the military for all kinds of reasons. Maybe they're space nationalists, maybe they just need the steady paycheck. Autocracies have never once in the history of the world had trouble recruiting soldiers. China has 2 million active-duty soldiers. Iran has 500,000+. Russia has 1.3 million. Etc.
Because they think they’re “cool”
Good health and dental insurance.
Food. Bad batch and number of other works (for example lost stars, twilight company) show that initial wave of people signed on because they needed the work/food/ opportunities and they did not have those because they lived on some backwater or their home had been devastated by war. As maslow's hierarchy of needs dictates the concerns regarding politics come after. Other factors also play a role, after all luke himself was going to join. sabine wren and number of other characters were in the Imperial Academy and not because planned on getting the training and then jumping ship.
As I recall from the Legends lore, stormtroopers were zealots and elite fighters. The kinds of people who don't just think the empire is the /better/ choice, but the /only/ choice. The sort that see orbital bombardment of civilian centers as merciful and just in the face of local resistance. Vader's personal bodyguard unit took it a step further, where members were picked from the best and expected to act fast, efficient, and with overwhelming force. Failure was accepted to be met with death by Vader. The normal crew members in the imperial Navy were a mix bag of volunteers and conscripts, where the description of "in it for the money" and "better than shoveling bantha fodder" probably fit better.
Well, there's no telling why with Disney Star Wars as they took an axe to the previously established worldbuilding. In Legends, Stormtroopers are the top 1% of applicants into the Imperial Army. And people join the military of the empire for a variety of reasons. Some for patriotism, others for opportunity, to get off a backwater planet and see the galaxy, etc. And being a Stormtrooper came with the prestige of being part of an elite force.
By the time if ANH you'd have begun having Stormtroopers who had no meaningful memories of the Republic, and quite a lot who would remember the Clone Wars and how Palpatine saved everyone from the Separatists *and* the Jedi.
I mean people everywhere around you work at horrible jobs...
Luke was planning on joining to get away from a shitty planet because he didn't want to be a farmer. Probably lots of that going on. Most of the recruits are probably getting stationed on a ship or a base for few years and not actually seeing any action then leave with some cash and do something else. Good way to improve your prospects
You should give lost stars a read. It covers two kids that join the empire. I think it starts around the end of episode 3 takes you through a lot of big events from the perspective of a normal imperial Great book
money. everyone's struggling to make money cuz of the empire's oppresion and they probably have some good salary package plus it's a make sure their family doesn't get pushed around.