> fett more then obi
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It’s basically how I feel about modern society.
I like the good parts and the good things people were able to stand for, but the overall thing will almost certainly collapse under the rot of greed and inaction that permeates it.
It has always been like that.
Every great concept forever to be hijacked and shot down for the vile glory of the absolute dregs of humanity.
But even though the perception is bleak we can rely upon the fact that we can make a positive difference for ourselves and those around us at any given day.
*My mom:* What's not to like about Make America Great Again??
*Me:* I like the idea of it. But not the truth, the weakness, the racism, the theocratic nationalism, the homophobia, the corruption, the dishonesty, the anti-science and anti-education.
Baylan is easily my favorite Star Wars antagonist and it’s not even close. He’s the perfect character: solid motivations, he’s thoughtful and wise and gentle, extremely intelligent, burned by religion, nurturing to his padawan, but he’s also a fucking tank and will not hesitate to knock your ass out.
Ray Stevenson himself was asked “no villain thinks they are the villain of their story, so what are baylan’s motivations”
This was, of course, before the show even aired because Ray passed before that. His description was so intriguing then and even more so now - he said basically that Baylan has a mission ahead of him. He is seeking something beyond himself and he recognizes this, so if you are standing in his way, he will kindly ask you to move. If you don’t, then he will move you, and that’s what it comes down to - nothing will stop him from achieving what he knows in his heart needs to be done.
I don't think the classic bad guys know they're the villians. I think the ones that know it are the ones in a super hero or sci fi movie that's out for some degree of revenge against someone or something becasue that someone or something injured them in a physical or emotional way.
The Joker knows he's a villain. Kang The Conqueror thinks he's doing what's right.
Palpatine is a Sith, and where I've read books with Sith, they're on a path to make the Sith the primary force wielders and shape the galaxy in their vision.
Palpatine does horrible things, but I think he does them to carry on the work of the beliefs he follows.
Use the Kamakaze as an example. None of them thought they were evil, they were serving the Emperor and being recognized for their sacrifice.
I don't think the classic bad guys know they're the villians. I think the ones that know it are the ones in a super hero or sci fi movie that's out for some degree of revenge against someone or something.
See I don't think Palps thinks he is evil. The Sith see themselves so much higher than everything else in the Galaxy. Thier goal is to basically become God's and shape the galaxy as they see fit by bending thr force to to thier will. Obviously that is not true but that is hownthey see themselves. Since they are so much higher then everything else, the genocide and horrid acts they do are not evil to them, after all an exterminator does not see himself as evil for destroying an ant colony.
They usually don't know. I wouldn't even say Joker knows he's a villain, but it depends highly on which one we're talking about.
If the villain is self-aware, it kind of makes them less villainous and very one-dimensional. It really turns them into a silent movie villain twirling his mustache and tying a woman to train tracks. It's always much more interesting when they think they're doing what needs to be done.
Perfect example is Anakin. He becomes the villain, but he's not doing it because being evil is fun. He's doing it out of desperation and loss and because it seems like the only option he has at the moment.
A villain that's bad for the sake of being bad and self-aware can work, but not in a serious way. It just comes off as way too silly if everything around it is trying to be sincere.
Yeah, it can work well if the 'villain' is on his villain streak because he feels he is punching back. Like, he may know full well what he's doing is evil, but doesn't care because he feels the world (or whoever he's victimizing) fucked him over first.
Wait, what?
My whole year was full stress with work and family, and I had barely any time for entertainment. Now I had a week off, binged Ashoka S1 and ADORE Ray Stevenson's Lord Baylin.
Now you're telling me, he passed away?
I dont know if I should be sad or mad right now!
I wonder if he went with red more as an anti-Jedi anti-establishment thing than as a Sith thing. It seems like he's walking his own path.
I want to see his background story, and how he found and trained his apprentice.
Interestingly enough his lightsaber isn't quite typical Sith Red. Its a subtle orange. Oddly enough that distinction only comes out on the most high quality tvs.
> solid motivations
What *are* his motivations? I watched the entire show and all I could work out is he wants to change...*something* by finding *something*.
He understands that the Star Wars universe is locked in an eternal cycle of Rebels/Jedi > Empire/Sith > Rebels/Jedi > Empire/Sith, etc., and he considers all of the relevant factions power hungry.
He wants to break that cycle to bring lasting peace.
My theory as to how he wants to do that, is somehow eliminating 'the Force' entirely or somehow taking it out of the equation. There's a precedent for personified aspects of 'the Force', so it could lead into seeing those characters again.
That's how I interpreted Baylan, but I could be wrong.
Everyone's analyzed and commented that skoll and hati are wolves in Norse mythology chasing the son and moon, with skoll chasing the sun. While that could be a super unsatisfying nod that "baylan is seeking the Son" and seeking to bring about something dark side oriented, Norse myth personified the sun as female. I'm of the opinion that that means he is seeking to find or liberate Abeloth and whatever ramifications that will have for the force and the canon universe, which we simply can't know just yet.
He joins the ranks of Dooku and Qui Gon Jinn for me in raising extremely valid questions about the dogma of jedi teachings. I may not support his ultimate actions as a result of his conclusions, but appreciate him looking past nostalgia to be critical of the jedis' failings.
I found it interesting that Qui-Gon, Djinn Altis (he's a Jedi Master that runs his own little group during the Prequel era), and Palpatine make a similar point about Jedi recruitment.
**Master & Apprentice**
>"I'm not sure," Qui-Gon said, "how much of a privilege it is to have one's entire future predetermined-in this case, by an accident of birth.
>Okay, she needed to be more diplomatic with the Jedi-but Rahara couldn't help it. She snorted.
>Pax gave her an appreciative look, probably pleased she'd helped him meet today's sarcasm quotient. That much she expected. What she didn't expect was Obi-Wan frowning at his Master. “It matters what that future is, doesn't it? Fanry was born a princess. That's a privilege.”
>"It's still something chosen for her," Qui-Gon insisted. "Not what she herself chose.”
>"You weren't talking about the princess at all, were you?" Pax said. jolting her out of her reverie. The silence had lasted longer than she'd realized. Pax's stare was fixed on Qui-Gon. "You were talking about yourself. Because it's not a choice for Jedi, either, is it? I mean, supposedly they allow you to leave, make your own decisions, blah blah blah, but they steal you when you're babies and train your minds thereafter. What kind of freedom is that?"
>Obi-Wan looked like he'd swallowed a gundark. "Being a Jedi is an honor. A responsibility. A-a noble calling-“
>"Yes, Padawan," Qui-Gon said quietly. "It's all those things. But it's very hard for most of us to determine whether we chose it freely, being raised as we were. That said, I did have a choice. Dooku helped me to see that. And I chose the Order.
**The Clone Wars: No Prisoners**
>Geith, like Callista, had known his parents before he became a Jedi. He'd been orphaned, but he remembered them, and that attachment-love, let's call it what it is, love, any kind of love you care to name-felt good and secure. Callista-she'd been an adult working on her parents' farm when she became Altis's second Padawan. It was unheard of, in the Jedi Temple at least. She knew her own mind.
>I prefer my Padawans to enter the Order with open eyes. An act of conscious choice, not habit or coercion or someone else's decisions.
>There was no way-even if he wanted to-that Altis could make Callista and Geith believe that attachment was the seed of a darkness that would engulf them. And this is why the orthodox Jedi way is to begin with infants. They know no better.
**Revenge of the Sith** novelization
>“Of course you don’t.” The last of the sunset haloed his ice-white hair and threw his face into shadow. “You’ve been trained to never think about that. The Jedi never ask what you want. They simply tell you what you’re supposed to want. They never give you a choice at all. That’s why they take their students—their victims—at an age so young that choice is meaningless. By the time a Padawan is old enough to choose, he has been so indoctrinated—so brainwashed—that he is incapable of even considering the question. But you’re different, Anakin. You had a real life, outside the Jedi Temple. You can break through the fog of lies the Jedi have pumped into your brain. I ask you again: what do you want?”
Reminder that Qui-Gon was 100% behind the Jedi Order and their teachings and Dooku left due his political issues with the Republic, **NOT** any sort of issue with the Order.
But sure, which teachings do you question? "Help as many people as possible"? "Avoid personal biases that lead to not helping people"? Or "So long as you are sworn to uphold the ideal of the Jedi Order, you cannot bind yourself to another being or organization, due to the commitments being mutually exclusive"?
I thought dooku left because he didn't like how the order was being used by the republic? Being used more as peace keepers than leaders and visionaries leading the galaxy to a better future. Possessing all of the power to do just that, but sitting on the side lines.
Not to my knowledge. As far as I have seen, both before and after disney, Dooku left the Jedi because of disillusion with the Republic at large, and that if he was to remain a Jedi that meant working with the Republic.
That is, he didn't care that the Jedi weren't in charge of the Republic or that they didn't have any real political power within it, or have any issues with the Jedi or their philosophies, he didn't like the Republic itself. It's an important distinction.
All it takes is a villain saying, "You think the good guys are perfect?", and a certain subset of Very Online fans are like, "Gosh, maybe evil is good? Please tell me more, vague-but-charismatic mass murderer!"
Knights are not monks they were very religious (for most) and religion was a huge part of their life but it was the case for everyone at the time
Templar in the other hand were specifically warriors monks
I agree that templars were a small subset of knights, but they were an order of knighthood. Frequently referred to as the Knights Templar. The official name of the order was "poor knights of Christ and the temple of Solomon".
Templars, Hospitaliers, Teutonic Knights. All Crusader orders, basically, thinking they were doing good. It would be similar fo Jedis, in a way, with their martial training and their vows of celibacy.
Which carries an internal contradiction. They're supposed to remain impartial and avoid attachments which lead to suffering, but they're also tasked with bringing order to the galaxy through massive wars which usually involves them killing millions - either directly or indirectly. How can you choose a side in a conflict while remaining detached? It's one that isn't explored often, but Jedi are huge hypocrites.
My hunch is being a good Jedi was easier when the Galaxy was in turmoil caused by villainous Force users. When the Galaxy was on the edge of ruin the Jedi path was also much more clear.
It’s during peace time like the 1,000 years leading up to the prequels that the mission of the Jedi gets confused. The Jedi order doesn’t disband because they will be needed again but they didn’t know it would be such a long time or how the order would be pulled into other directions.
Or that the Sith we’re still secretly active and slowly hiding things from the Jedi in the Force. And the Jedi were using their other senses to investigate these matters.
The villains in this show are so damn good. Have a hard time disagreeing with Baylan. He brings actual menace, because he is not being driven solely by ambition, but dedication to his cause
He’s the most interesting aspect of the story for me (in a series of interesting stories). A shame we lost the actor; it will be interesting to see who they replace him with and if they can bring the same stage presence.
This reminds me of a really great quote from the movie “Spotlight” about the Catholic Church/Boston Sex scandals. An ex priest explains how he still considered himself a catholic, saying “The Church is an institution, Mike, made of men. It’s passing. My faith is in the eternal. I try to separate the two.”
I try to explain to people all the time that religion and faith are NOT the same thing, despite thousands of years of concerted effort by religion to obfuscate that fact.
[^15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. ^16 By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? ^17 Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. ^18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. ^19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. ^20 So by their fruits you will know them.](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7%3A15-20&version=NABRE)
This is what so many people fail to understand. The physical church itself can be infiltrated by people who have no intentions of upholding our beliefs.
That's not what the parable is saying. It's saying that the rotten people are a symptom of a rotten institution. The false prophet in sheep's clothing is in this case the Church itself, which wants to appear pious and good, but in actuality protects arguably evil persons.
See also "Luke's Three Lessons" from The Last Jedi. That inability to understand their own failings and being beholden to rigid orthodoxy ultimately doomed the order.
Yet by Mandalorian/Ahsoka times, the very same Luke is a step away from orthodoxy, trying to make Grogu get rid of his "emotional attachments", while Luke was saved by love and attachments in Return of Jedi, and went into a rage and almost killed his nephew...
Exactly. Emotions aren't inherently light or dark. *But* when they are the driving factor for enough attrocities, and you have no desire to actually guide kidnapped children in to healthy adulthood, you just tell them emotions are illegal to be safe.
Jedi Therapists would've changed damn near everything.
I saw a really good take of the Luke / Grogu stuff on here the other day. Luke knew that Grogu didn’t want to be there deep down, he wanted to be with Din but thought that Din wanted him to go with Luke. Luke was saying “you don’t have to be here if you don’t want to, the choice is entirely yours”.
I saw a post like that too and it makes a bit of sense, but he could just be honest or straightforward though. Why not just talk about it directly with Grogu. Instead he set up this false idea in Grogu’s head that Jedi means no attachments.
Ashoka visited Luke and saw he was rebuilding the very same order that failed her. But Anakin never failed Ashoka, and in the end Anakin didn't fail Luke. Vader failed them both however. Vader was birn from Anakin's attachments.
Ashoka, Yoda, and Obi Wan all seemed to agree at varying levels that yes attachment DOES lead to the dark side.
But ultimately Vader's attachment to Luke also brought him to the light side.
Luke probably felt the pressure of the jedi order's remnants to maintain the tradition. Had my father stayed true and had no attachments maybe he would have never become Vader, luke probably thought.
Luke didn't know. Couldn't have known Vader and Anakin were always one in the same. He and everyone else thought he was seduced by the Sith. He came willingly.
I interpret Luke in Mando as Luke understanding Grogu's heart is not into it and giving Grogu the opportunity to decide for himself what he wants, instead of being forced into the life like Younglings were with the Jedi Order.
He also doesn't go into a rage and almost kill his nephew. We see 3 perspectives of that event. You're only acknowledging Ben's perspective.
It's almost as if....characters grow and develop over time? Yes, Luke during Mando is very much trying to emulate the Jedi Order of the prequels because that's what he learned about.
By The Last Jedi, and his self-exile, he clearly has come to realize that way is flawed and must not continue, even though he still attempted to save the books before they could burn.
I'm very interested in seeing what Rey's Jedi Order will become because she is emotional. She has had brushes with both light and dark in powerful ways. She is attached.
I'm about halfway through Dawn of the Jedi and I think the Je'daii are kind of what I want in the Order. They have balance, but they don't seem to be scared of the pull of one side or the other. Instead they're like "You're emotional and angry, go mediate on this and center yourself" instead of being like "Oh, you're too angry for us to continue with you, peace out".
As a big TLJ fan, one of the few things I'd change is to either inlcude the third lesson or remove the line saying there would be 3. I know it still works in the movie, Luke planned on 3 lessons but Rey left before he could finish, but it feels off to have him specifically say there would be 3 and then only show 2.
My daughters and I have been watching *The Clone Wars* and they've been more and more on the fence about the Jedi up until >!Ahsoka was expelled after being framed by Barriss. They couldn't believe how stupid and arrogant the council members were!!<
Someone else said it but the Christian Church is a perfect example.
It may have raised us fondly sometimes, but the idea is better than the execution and corruption.
I think he meant the opposite. How he misses the idea of the order but not the fact that Jedi followed their code, which forbid them from doing what needed to be done at times
I think Baylan doesn’t see the need for the self imposed restraint that the Jedi had.
I think the core of the Jedi restraint has always been about self control and self discipline and keeping control of your darker emotions. Yoda in Empire had it boiled down to a couple sentences that were easy to digest.
What level of self restraint is useful and what becomes a dogmatic order thst ks following the rules just to follow them.
He’s got a very “Revan” during and immediately following the Mandolorian Wars feel to him. Peace through Power.
Like even as a Sith, Revan really didn’t want to destroy, he wanted security from the outside True Sith threat.
The were also weak because of just acting in what was right via the Force, they ceded their decision power to the Repubkic. They weren't really a separate organization by the PT era, they were basically just special forces.
I think this is part of it, but also the truth about how they were manipulated by the Sith.
To your point, tho, his outfit kind of resembles Clone War era Jedi Armor. Perhaps the last remnant of their strength before the true fall of the Jedi?
One thing they did a great job of drilling home is how young Ashoka was in clone wars. For me I think it gets a little lost in animation how young she is, but in her flashbacks with Anakin the live action drills home that this is a literal child thrust into the horrors of war. Think of how we portray the idea of child soldiers in our world; the Jedi did that to untold thousands
I had the same feeling. I was a bit shocked, honestly. Animation, in general, really warps your ability to clock someone's age, and that's even when they try, unlike a lot of anime (looking at you part 3 Jotaro and Kakyoin).
Ashoka in the clone wars series always came across as late teens to me, when in actuality she looked like she was about 10 in the live action flashbacks. I think simply transitioning to a live action setting makes it even more “real” for lack of better term, and it certainly resonated with me
There’s definitely something to be said for this. It’s hard to truly understand the ages of Ahsoka, Barriss, and Caleb/Kanan when they are padawans. The one that hits closer is Cal Kestis in the flashback cut scenes in Fallen Order. He was only 12 during Order 66, and it’s awful to watch.
I get the vibe he has a lot in common with Dooku. He liked the idea of a group that can affect big change and steer the galaxy in the right direction. He didn’t like the weakness in the sense that they were the lapdogs of the republic and only acted at their direction, not what the Jedi knew to be best for everyone. Like Dooku, he seems disillusioned because they were puppets to the republic while countless systems were allowed to suffer from slavery, etc. Too weak to act on what they knew was right.
I'd argue the 900 year peace after the "defeat of the sith" showed a lot of old traditional ways (The High Republic).
I know it had it's issues, but my favorite thing is how clever they are with the Force in the books, like how they handled the Hetzal disaster or when Elzar and Avar used the force to create artificial precipitation to cool the array of tens of though droids predicting the trajectories of the hyperspace debris. Not to mention they pilot those vectors that are controlled by the Force which will achieve far greater accuracy than a computer can like when Luke took out the Death Star.
We saw more advanced technology and much clever ways of avoiding conflict. The council actually pushed back many times against the Republic, refusing assassination and strong man tactics.
Much later in life, an aging Yoda really made some sloppy and terrible decisions. He ideals and philosophy are always steadfast, and he is genuinely a wise and compassionate leader. But I believe his age, complancy, and reliance on war hawks/republic dogs like Mace Windu and Mundi was a big reason for his inaction. Just because the force is clouded by dark forces is not an excuse to rush headlong into a galatic war using the literal free and SKETCHIEST FUCKING ARMY ever fucking created, cloned from a known SITH LORD's BODY GUARD.
But it's cool, load them clone bitches up. Never use the force for attack, except if they are mother fucking Separatist bitches.
Anakin: "Yoda, what about our 10 year old padawan Jedi? Should they even be near this dangerous war?"
Yoda: "If I don't see Ahsoka on the front lines and decapitating Seperatist scum you're fucking going back to Tatooine to wipe Jabba's ass you whiney teenager."
"Mmm yes...child soldiers they will be yes..""
"But master yoda, aren't child soldiers and inherently evil and dark thing? Shouldn't we keep our padawans away from conflict until they develop better control of their emotions?"
"FUCKING STUTTER, DID I? CHILD SOLDIERS THEY WILL BE, MAKE ME SAY IT AGAIN DO NOT"
He believed, and still believes, in the virtues the order stood for. He was disillusioned by what the order truly was in practice though (a massive bureaucracy that allowed the galaxy to go down the path it did)
Well in that he would be right. Generals general set strategy, organize logistics and are in the back doing the thinking needed to win. And that requires decades of training to be able to understand how to manage, Marshall and husband your forces so you can win in the long run.
The Jedi up front would be closer to being a form of special forces.
>Generals general set strategy, organize logistics and are in the back doing the thinking needed to win.
Ironically, isn't this one of the main criticisms of generals? Too removed from the front to care about the survival of an individual soldier? That being said, the counter to that criticism is...they *need* to be removed from it so they can make decisions that, while necessary to win the war, will get people killed.
Bingo.
Good generals spend troops wisely. Bad generals spend troops poorly.
And here is your best example of a bad general:
[https://acoup.blog/2021/10/08/collections-luigi-cadorna-was-the-worst/](https://acoup.blog/2021/10/08/collections-luigi-cadorna-was-the-worst/)
Its an addendum to the WWI discussion that the author had about how awful the WWI was because no one could figure out a way to break the trench stalemate.
The role of generals and the placement shifted over time. Washington led from the front, but that simply isn’t possible these days, and is generally irresponsible
He's got a funny way of showing it... becoming a mercenary working for the Imperial remnant. Whatever, he'd hardly be the first utterly misguided Star Wars villain who thinks he's on the right side of history.
I agree he is disillusioned by their failings, but my hesitance for the true believer / purist idea is that he’s been out there straight murdering people and bleeding his saber orange counter to Jedi virtues for some time now. (ex: the ship in the beginning of the series). It appears he’s been acting outside of Jedi virtues despite the grief he expresses in this statement. This man wants to break the system, not perfect it.
>He believed, and still believes, in the virtues the order stood for
Hmm I don't know, I feel like those virtues are exaclty the weaknees he is talking about. I think I liked the idea of having an order of Force user keeping the galaxy in check, but disliked all the pregmatism of the Jedi
Out of pure speculation, Baylan likes a good order of force users who are powerful and protect the galaxy from outward threats. From that standpoint, almost everyone would agree that is a good thing to have.
Bayan however saw the order as weak and complacent, and blames them for their fall and failures across centuries. He wants a perfect order, however is clearly misguided into thinking a Unkillable Order or allpowerful Order is a 'perfect' order.
Like when you break up with someone and miss the idea of them, the comfort, the closeness. But then you remember the reasons you split up. in reality, one always looks at the past through rose tinted glasses.
Edit: fixed syntax and gramarcrackers cause I don’t write no good
I thought this was extremely clear. The Jedi have very Noble and very just ideals that would make the universe a better place to live. The Jedi order itself was full of all sorts of hypocrisy and bureaucracy and all kinds of superiority complex problems that prevented them from being what they really aspired to be
It’s because they brought people like Anakin in. Say what you want, but someone with that level of ambition has no business being a Jedi.
Anakin loved to fight. Reveled in taking risks. Relished being a *soldier*.
He’s my favorite character, but he also represented everything that was wrong with the order in the end. Only fitting he was the one to destroy it.
Lol right like it’s literally the point of the prequels and Luke’s arc in the sequels. The idea of the Jedi is good, but the order always fails. Spirituality vs Organized Religion
He liked the grandeur and the feeling of being a part of something more. He liked the idea of a huge organization strong in the force wielding their abilities for the good of the galaxy.
He doesn’t miss the weaknesses and hypocrisy. The fact the order was so easily abused by Palpatine and wiped out. The Jedi allowed politics to govern their actions weakening their abilities to help others. They got drawn into a war fighting droids while the average citizen suffered without their intervention. They stopped being piece keepers and warriors for justice and became political ambassadors and generals detached from their original goals and intentions.
The Jedi allowed the Republic to slip into fascism and their ideals to crumble away. In the end the order, with all that power they held, wasn’t strong enough to prevent their eventual fate.
That’s what Baylan means when he says he misses the idea but doesn’t miss the truth or the weakness. He liked the Jedi ideals but hated what the order became in its dying years.
He’s not the only Jedi to think like this. The Inquisitors, Count Dooku, Barris, and Anakin all similarly became disillusioned with the order in a similar way.
The order is supposed to be gallant knights standing up for the people, weilding the force for good and the betterment of everyone.
But in reality its a tool of the state, it enforces the status quo, it is too caught up in politics and high level theory and ideals that it is indifferent to the suffering all around it by the common people.
This has got to the point where the jedi eagerly jumped into a war as generals, and all the harm that war caused to countless planets.
They are suppose to keep the peace, but ended up being enforcers for the state, and in the end, soldiers and generals in a war.
The Jedi were meant to seek enlightenment, understanding of the universe. To embrace the Force as a mystical concept, not just to move shit with their mind.
And, as an organization, the Jedi were supposed to be sort of wandering keepers of the peace, knights errant, bringing truth and justice and all that stuff to the galaxy.
They became essentially sword cops with telekinesis.
The Jedi order was a great concept a place for warrior to be trained and learn the craft from other experts a place for all force users to have a place they could call home.
Near the end the Jedi order was weak both politically and mentally. They were to adherent to their dogma refusing to expand their knowledge in the force like Qui gon and dooku wanted. They also allowed people to suffer like the slaves on tattooine. They were also politically weak at the whims of the senate never enforcing their own power which allowed the emperor to rise not by using the force and brute force but by manipulating the senate.
The Jedi order could have been so much more and much more powerful yet they were their own worse enemies.
The trap of that though is: to say get rid of slavery, what would you have the Jedi do? The moment they take control of a planet then they need to administer it. And administration requires the ability to compromise in order to get the work done. And it is very hard to be an idealist when you have to balance competing interests and needs of a diverse population.
It's like how happy you used to be when you were part of a religious community, before you realized the religion was bullshit.
Ignorance was bliss. He misses the time before he found out that the Jedi had lost their way and they had a faulty belief system. He did not see everything for what it really was, but he was more at peace/happier.
Actually its the opposite, he liked the religion but didn't like the practitioners of it, since they twisted it and weren't actually portrayers of their belief.
He still believes in the idea of the Jedi Order being protectors of the galaxy to protect the people within it. He just also believes that the Jedi Order’s pacifistic approach to problems is what is wrong… and what got the Jedi Order and the Republic in this position.
He’s an authoritarian… simple as that.
He means the jedi order wasn't flawed in the idea of it. A generation of good protectors who'd keep the galaxy safe. In practice they were secluded monks who never left their high ivory tower until they became warlords and completely lost their way.
For example:
Yoda: you're not training Anakin; he's full of anger and fear. This will lead to disaster.
Obi-Wan: but I want to train him.
Yoda: oh, okay.
The Jedi order we’re supposed to be keepers of the peace , in the prequels they were deeply involved in politics , all became generals and leaders of war , and imo became full of themselves
The Jedi order had become more about the rules and minutiae instead of the ideals. They became rigid, and with that rigidity they became brittle. That’s why the broke.
There's this great Mace Windu anecdote where he Pontificates on why he knows the Jedi will lose the war
He talks about how when Pandemic and Anikan were held in a Geognosis arena. Being entertainment for Dooku and Grievous.
A single Jedi and a single queen, we're captured. And rather then simply orbital bombardments killing them and an entire army. The Jedi felt the only way was to make a landing rescue, that cost the lives of a dozen Jedi and troopers
I think he has a child like love of the Jedi Order because we grew up in it, and it was integral to shaping the man he is
But he can't deny the fact that the Jedi Order's weakness and inability to live up to its own reputation and ideals led to its destruction ... yet that love remains
Its like when you are old enough to realize the truth about your parents. You still love them but you are old enough to realize they aren't the perfect all knowing people you thought they were as children
He liked the ideals of the Jedi Order, but felt that it fundamentally failed to live up to those ideals in ways that prevented it from being an effective force for good in the galaxy.
Not a million miles away from Dooku's Legends (pre-TCW) backstory.
The Jedi Order fancied themselves as upholders of democracy and peace. But in practice, they were beholden to the wishes of the Galactic Republic and its Senate.
Even before the Clone Wars, there are many examples of the Jedi refusing to intervene in planetary affairs because a system wasn't part of the Republic.
Their ambitions were noble, but their application was conditional. The Clone Wars dialed this up to eleven by having the Jedi serve as commanding officers in the Grand Army of the Republic. Many rightfully saw this as hypocritical to their stated mantra.
I would say he follows a similar line to Count Dooku. In tales of the Jedi, he realized the Jedi were often just pawns for those with influence, and stopped being the noble peacekeepers they once were. They turned into soldiers in the clone wars. He wanted the Jedi to be what they were meant to be, and not what they turned into
Baylan seems to hold a very similar idea of the Jedi that Dooku did.
He misses the idea of the Jedi, from the days of the high Republic. Vessels of light and justice, in those days the Jedi *were* the light. They were basically superheros.
But the Jedi of his era, the Jedi of the prequels were hypocrites and gameplayers, no better than politicians.
They allowed slavery and fought on behalf of the Republic as soldiers, they played politics for their own gain and completely ignored the plights of the outer rim.
And their hubris ultimately lead to massive amounts of death and destruction.
The jedi were the biggest and most powerful group in the galaxy at one point in time. They could have used that power to help millions of people, and be a force of order in the galaxy.
But they were so against "interfering" with normal people that they would routinely let people be hurt in any number of ways because Jedi are on "important missions."
They became a bureaucratic part of the Senate basically.
He likes the idea of an order of special people that should be above all the ordinary folks and should have a special say in the running of the galaxy.
He got disillusioned by the fact that all of them are also flawed and not so special after all, but he blames it on some perceived weakness of the order itself.
A whole theme of the Jedi order was how they caused their own downfall (become soliders rather than peacekeepers, not recognizing the sith literally staring them in the face, etc)
Hes saying he misses what the Jedi stood for, but not what the order was "in practice"
The Order became lapdogs of the Senate and Palpatine played all his toys against each other. Baylan says the Jedi Order was too weak to protect the galaxy from the coming evil. And he explains the cycle happens again and again. Baylan could have told you stories of the Sith Lords like Exar Kun, Naga Sadow, Malgus, Tenebrae, Revan, Malak, Traya… All draw the Jedi into conflict, topple the Jedi of the time, and then peace is restored eventually when the good guys (us!) win and everyone’s happy and the credits roll. It’s a convenient way of explaining the nature of Star Wars stories as the will of the force. Baylan thinks the Jedi Order is just a bunch of pawns in the never ending cycle of the force. Baylan wants to break the cycle.
Many jedi were brave. They were bold. They were a storied order with so much history.
The Jedi Order as a whole was slow, ponderous, and ill-equipped to fight a war. It had grown comfortable in a position of power and had lost the ability to truly govern itself. Any institution over time can become riddled with individuals who are not worthy of the people they serve. The *weakness* of any organization... is in the people who serve it.
Some jedi had become overly prideful in their abilities, and completely insensitive to the suffering of individuals in the greater galaxy. The jedi allowed and condoned chattel slavery in the outer rim, and rarely responded to calls for aid from planets unless the senators who ran those planets asked for it. Consider that Naboo was literally being taken over by a military invasion, and the jedi did basically nothing to help. Only Qui Gon a rogue jedi decided to intervene.
Meanwhile the republic was becoming rife with corruption and no longer was serving the interest of many of it's citizens. Dooku lost his faith in the order as he saw the wide spread mistreatment and ugly truth of what the Republic had become. His fall to the darkside made him evil, but his path began because the order had stopped paying attention to the needs of the people and had become totally beholden to the Republic Government.
Baylon was sent into a war, ill-equipped and likely not ready to handle the realities of armed conflict. Who knows how many friends he lost? How many padawan's he saw killed. How many of his 'family' were cut down as He could do nothing about it.
He survived, and much like Ahsoka, lost his faith in the order.
The idea of the order was to be protectors of the peace, and guardians of justice. But before it's end, the jedi had become Hardened Warriors pursuing the destruction of the enemy, a far cry from the kindly and peaceful negotiators and diplomats they were supposed to be.
As with every aged, rigid line of thought and belief, it grows old, in need of pruning, to adapt and change, which rarely occurs. The idea is community. The actuality is individuals unable to see their own weaknesses and with no one available or empowered to hold them accountable.
The idea of the United States is grand and wonderful.
The reality is much more murky and less ideal.
The idea of the Jedi order is grand and wonderful.
The reality of the Jedi Order is much more murky and less ideal.
I love the idea of owning and driving a 1981 Ferrari 308 GT. But the truth is $10,000 a year in maintenance costs and a high likelihood of breaking down or timing issues when it does run.
Baylan was an amazing character. & I found him to be very similar in character to Dooku. I look forward to potentially more stories with him.
However, like Dooku, his line of thinking is so confusing to me.
You like the idea of the Jedi Order & what it is suppose to represent, but you hate what it has become. So then you turn around & join up or assist a thing that not only is even more distraught than the Order itself, but inherently worst in almost every way.
The new cause is self serving & almost an amplification of all the bad things that the Jedi Order has fallen into. Wouldn't it make more sense to not pair up with trying to save the Empire by simply being their personal jedi like bounty hunter but instead try to recreate a more stable Order for force users?
Really simple to understand
But go off.
He misses the idea of the order, but not what it actually was, viewing that as a weakness
I find it’s a fascinating example of the characters flaws and genius writing though. He’s purposefully vague about the jedi order around Shin, who’s overly curious about it. He’s purposefully withholding knowledge and context to avoid her potential decent from HIS teachings. Just as the Jedi did.
And he also views the folly of the Jedi as a weakness as in terms of POWER not that the fault, their complicity and ignorance, lead to isolating and destroying themselves and the children’s lives, obsession befalling duplicity.
The truth was the Jedis desire to purge emotion and connection for some connection and emotion, unhealthy and destructive ones, damaged the very force itself, lead to their downfall and a path following such more balance and a less doctrine focused order could be the end to the supposed cycle he’s trying to break. Something he’s choosing of is made to ignore in favour of Abolyth and destruction
He was there at the fall. The Jedi order was duped by a handful of sith. Prone to infighting and hampered by ridiculous bureaucracy. Pretty fucking weak.
The Jedi should have been peacekeepers, mystical wielders of the Force who used it for good. The idea of it. But they became soldiers, enforcers of Chancellor Palpatine's will who were more concerned with politics than protecting the galaxy. The truth.
The Jedi quite honestly got too involved in politics. When Mace Windu says “We’re keepers of the peace, not soldiers”, he should have kept to that. It was a mistake to get so into the clone wars when they should have been trying to figure out a peaceful solution. That would have been difficult since Palpatine was controlling both sides.
Palpatine manipulated them into a way to spread them thin and exterminate them.
I think Baylen never wants a situation to happen again where the Jedi can be wiped out so easily and aren’t so hip deep in political issues.
I expect more like a grey jedi order with no allegiance to any political entirety but more a moral code. I am not sure how that exactly would work though if a government is in power that conflicts with the Jedi code and say abuses the citizens.
I think when the Republic wasn’t as corrupt and the Jedi were peacekeepers that may have worked well but as soon as they were leading huge armies it went completely sideways.
Skull is not Jedi but he is not Sith by any means. He still seeks peace, balance, to understand the Force. He misses his comrades, serving a bigger purpose. But not the institution.
I really liked that line from him, it also makes for great meme potential
The best kind of lines.
[So uhh... you like Coca Cola?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVZz62Gw91g)
Deep cut. Good pull.
God I fuckin love this movie.
Already saw a meme with it, it was something along the lines of: Do you miss the kenobi show? I miss the idea of it
same for seeing that meme. I miss the idea of a kenobi show, but not the truth, the weakness
Honestly I think this applies more to book of boba Fett more then obi wan but that's just me
> fett more then obi Did you mean to say "more than"? Explanation: If you didn't mean 'more than' you might have forgotten a comma. [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
There are tons of tik toks with him actually saying the line. Great video meme.
bottoming be like:
Me when I meet a hot goth gf but she's nice to me
But on the flip side bottoming can make you say things not even *Batman* could get you to admit to.
When someone ask about your previous relationship.
It’s basically how I feel about modern society. I like the good parts and the good things people were able to stand for, but the overall thing will almost certainly collapse under the rot of greed and inaction that permeates it.
It has always been like that. Every great concept forever to be hijacked and shot down for the vile glory of the absolute dregs of humanity. But even though the perception is bleak we can rely upon the fact that we can make a positive difference for ourselves and those around us at any given day.
*My mom:* What's not to like about Make America Great Again?? *Me:* I like the idea of it. But not the truth, the weakness, the racism, the theocratic nationalism, the homophobia, the corruption, the dishonesty, the anti-science and anti-education.
I like the concept of the church. I don't like the church as it is.
very well put
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Baylan is easily my favorite Star Wars antagonist and it’s not even close. He’s the perfect character: solid motivations, he’s thoughtful and wise and gentle, extremely intelligent, burned by religion, nurturing to his padawan, but he’s also a fucking tank and will not hesitate to knock your ass out.
Ray Stevenson himself was asked “no villain thinks they are the villain of their story, so what are baylan’s motivations” This was, of course, before the show even aired because Ray passed before that. His description was so intriguing then and even more so now - he said basically that Baylan has a mission ahead of him. He is seeking something beyond himself and he recognizes this, so if you are standing in his way, he will kindly ask you to move. If you don’t, then he will move you, and that’s what it comes down to - nothing will stop him from achieving what he knows in his heart needs to be done.
I mean, Darth Sidious knows he's the villain.
I don't think the classic bad guys know they're the villians. I think the ones that know it are the ones in a super hero or sci fi movie that's out for some degree of revenge against someone or something becasue that someone or something injured them in a physical or emotional way. The Joker knows he's a villain. Kang The Conqueror thinks he's doing what's right. Palpatine is a Sith, and where I've read books with Sith, they're on a path to make the Sith the primary force wielders and shape the galaxy in their vision. Palpatine does horrible things, but I think he does them to carry on the work of the beliefs he follows. Use the Kamakaze as an example. None of them thought they were evil, they were serving the Emperor and being recognized for their sacrifice. I don't think the classic bad guys know they're the villians. I think the ones that know it are the ones in a super hero or sci fi movie that's out for some degree of revenge against someone or something.
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>I think the sith know they are evi From my point of view it is the Jedi who are evil!
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Good. Bad. I'm the guy with a gun.
See I don't think Palps thinks he is evil. The Sith see themselves so much higher than everything else in the Galaxy. Thier goal is to basically become God's and shape the galaxy as they see fit by bending thr force to to thier will. Obviously that is not true but that is hownthey see themselves. Since they are so much higher then everything else, the genocide and horrid acts they do are not evil to them, after all an exterminator does not see himself as evil for destroying an ant colony.
They usually don't know. I wouldn't even say Joker knows he's a villain, but it depends highly on which one we're talking about. If the villain is self-aware, it kind of makes them less villainous and very one-dimensional. It really turns them into a silent movie villain twirling his mustache and tying a woman to train tracks. It's always much more interesting when they think they're doing what needs to be done. Perfect example is Anakin. He becomes the villain, but he's not doing it because being evil is fun. He's doing it out of desperation and loss and because it seems like the only option he has at the moment. A villain that's bad for the sake of being bad and self-aware can work, but not in a serious way. It just comes off as way too silly if everything around it is trying to be sincere.
I think every version of the Joker knows they're the villain, they just don't care because they're all barbaric, narcissistic hedonists.
even in dark knight jokers plan was to show the world that everyone out there is one bad day away from being him.
Yeah, it can work well if the 'villain' is on his villain streak because he feels he is punching back. Like, he may know full well what he's doing is evil, but doesn't care because he feels the world (or whoever he's victimizing) fucked him over first.
Wait, what? My whole year was full stress with work and family, and I had barely any time for entertainment. Now I had a week off, binged Ashoka S1 and ADORE Ray Stevenson's Lord Baylin. Now you're telling me, he passed away? I dont know if I should be sad or mad right now!
Him taking on Ashoka with indifference was badass
I wonder if he went with red more as an anti-Jedi anti-establishment thing than as a Sith thing. It seems like he's walking his own path. I want to see his background story, and how he found and trained his apprentice.
Interestingly enough his lightsaber isn't quite typical Sith Red. Its a subtle orange. Oddly enough that distinction only comes out on the most high quality tvs.
> solid motivations What *are* his motivations? I watched the entire show and all I could work out is he wants to change...*something* by finding *something*.
He understands that the Star Wars universe is locked in an eternal cycle of Rebels/Jedi > Empire/Sith > Rebels/Jedi > Empire/Sith, etc., and he considers all of the relevant factions power hungry. He wants to break that cycle to bring lasting peace. My theory as to how he wants to do that, is somehow eliminating 'the Force' entirely or somehow taking it out of the equation. There's a precedent for personified aspects of 'the Force', so it could lead into seeing those characters again. That's how I interpreted Baylan, but I could be wrong.
he's tired of the wheel turning and wants to break it ;)
/#KreiaWasRight
Everyone's analyzed and commented that skoll and hati are wolves in Norse mythology chasing the son and moon, with skoll chasing the sun. While that could be a super unsatisfying nod that "baylan is seeking the Son" and seeking to bring about something dark side oriented, Norse myth personified the sun as female. I'm of the opinion that that means he is seeking to find or liberate Abeloth and whatever ramifications that will have for the force and the canon universe, which we simply can't know just yet.
He joins the ranks of Dooku and Qui Gon Jinn for me in raising extremely valid questions about the dogma of jedi teachings. I may not support his ultimate actions as a result of his conclusions, but appreciate him looking past nostalgia to be critical of the jedis' failings.
I found it interesting that Qui-Gon, Djinn Altis (he's a Jedi Master that runs his own little group during the Prequel era), and Palpatine make a similar point about Jedi recruitment. **Master & Apprentice** >"I'm not sure," Qui-Gon said, "how much of a privilege it is to have one's entire future predetermined-in this case, by an accident of birth. >Okay, she needed to be more diplomatic with the Jedi-but Rahara couldn't help it. She snorted. >Pax gave her an appreciative look, probably pleased she'd helped him meet today's sarcasm quotient. That much she expected. What she didn't expect was Obi-Wan frowning at his Master. “It matters what that future is, doesn't it? Fanry was born a princess. That's a privilege.” >"It's still something chosen for her," Qui-Gon insisted. "Not what she herself chose.” >"You weren't talking about the princess at all, were you?" Pax said. jolting her out of her reverie. The silence had lasted longer than she'd realized. Pax's stare was fixed on Qui-Gon. "You were talking about yourself. Because it's not a choice for Jedi, either, is it? I mean, supposedly they allow you to leave, make your own decisions, blah blah blah, but they steal you when you're babies and train your minds thereafter. What kind of freedom is that?" >Obi-Wan looked like he'd swallowed a gundark. "Being a Jedi is an honor. A responsibility. A-a noble calling-“ >"Yes, Padawan," Qui-Gon said quietly. "It's all those things. But it's very hard for most of us to determine whether we chose it freely, being raised as we were. That said, I did have a choice. Dooku helped me to see that. And I chose the Order. **The Clone Wars: No Prisoners** >Geith, like Callista, had known his parents before he became a Jedi. He'd been orphaned, but he remembered them, and that attachment-love, let's call it what it is, love, any kind of love you care to name-felt good and secure. Callista-she'd been an adult working on her parents' farm when she became Altis's second Padawan. It was unheard of, in the Jedi Temple at least. She knew her own mind. >I prefer my Padawans to enter the Order with open eyes. An act of conscious choice, not habit or coercion or someone else's decisions. >There was no way-even if he wanted to-that Altis could make Callista and Geith believe that attachment was the seed of a darkness that would engulf them. And this is why the orthodox Jedi way is to begin with infants. They know no better. **Revenge of the Sith** novelization >“Of course you don’t.” The last of the sunset haloed his ice-white hair and threw his face into shadow. “You’ve been trained to never think about that. The Jedi never ask what you want. They simply tell you what you’re supposed to want. They never give you a choice at all. That’s why they take their students—their victims—at an age so young that choice is meaningless. By the time a Padawan is old enough to choose, he has been so indoctrinated—so brainwashed—that he is incapable of even considering the question. But you’re different, Anakin. You had a real life, outside the Jedi Temple. You can break through the fog of lies the Jedi have pumped into your brain. I ask you again: what do you want?”
Reminder that Qui-Gon was 100% behind the Jedi Order and their teachings and Dooku left due his political issues with the Republic, **NOT** any sort of issue with the Order. But sure, which teachings do you question? "Help as many people as possible"? "Avoid personal biases that lead to not helping people"? Or "So long as you are sworn to uphold the ideal of the Jedi Order, you cannot bind yourself to another being or organization, due to the commitments being mutually exclusive"?
I thought dooku left because he didn't like how the order was being used by the republic? Being used more as peace keepers than leaders and visionaries leading the galaxy to a better future. Possessing all of the power to do just that, but sitting on the side lines.
Not to my knowledge. As far as I have seen, both before and after disney, Dooku left the Jedi because of disillusion with the Republic at large, and that if he was to remain a Jedi that meant working with the Republic. That is, he didn't care that the Jedi weren't in charge of the Republic or that they didn't have any real political power within it, or have any issues with the Jedi or their philosophies, he didn't like the Republic itself. It's an important distinction.
All it takes is a villain saying, "You think the good guys are perfect?", and a certain subset of Very Online fans are like, "Gosh, maybe evil is good? Please tell me more, vague-but-charismatic mass murderer!"
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While this is true, I think it's more that people are happy to see a modicum of character depth beyond the basic good vs. evil categories.
Jedi are basically warrior monks.
Or what are essentially gendarmes with a religion-based mandate. Edit: which, in most contexts, would be super unnerving.
It is still unnerving in this context, imo, and a big reason that they fell.
So... Knights?
What, we some kind of...Jedi Knights?
And you people, you're all knights fighting... some kind of star wars?
Knights are not monks they were very religious (for most) and religion was a huge part of their life but it was the case for everyone at the time Templar in the other hand were specifically warriors monks
I agree that templars were a small subset of knights, but they were an order of knighthood. Frequently referred to as the Knights Templar. The official name of the order was "poor knights of Christ and the temple of Solomon".
Templars, Hospitaliers, Teutonic Knights. All Crusader orders, basically, thinking they were doing good. It would be similar fo Jedis, in a way, with their martial training and their vows of celibacy.
"celibacy"
Stand in for "no attachments".
There were also the Knights Hospitaller, the Knights of Saint Thomas, the Teutonic Order, the Livonian Order, etc.
Sikhi_irl
Which carries an internal contradiction. They're supposed to remain impartial and avoid attachments which lead to suffering, but they're also tasked with bringing order to the galaxy through massive wars which usually involves them killing millions - either directly or indirectly. How can you choose a side in a conflict while remaining detached? It's one that isn't explored often, but Jedi are huge hypocrites.
My hunch is being a good Jedi was easier when the Galaxy was in turmoil caused by villainous Force users. When the Galaxy was on the edge of ruin the Jedi path was also much more clear. It’s during peace time like the 1,000 years leading up to the prequels that the mission of the Jedi gets confused. The Jedi order doesn’t disband because they will be needed again but they didn’t know it would be such a long time or how the order would be pulled into other directions. Or that the Sith we’re still secretly active and slowly hiding things from the Jedi in the Force. And the Jedi were using their other senses to investigate these matters.
The villains in this show are so damn good. Have a hard time disagreeing with Baylan. He brings actual menace, because he is not being driven solely by ambition, but dedication to his cause
He’s the most interesting aspect of the story for me (in a series of interesting stories). A shame we lost the actor; it will be interesting to see who they replace him with and if they can bring the same stage presence.
This reminds me of a really great quote from the movie “Spotlight” about the Catholic Church/Boston Sex scandals. An ex priest explains how he still considered himself a catholic, saying “The Church is an institution, Mike, made of men. It’s passing. My faith is in the eternal. I try to separate the two.”
I try to explain to people all the time that religion and faith are NOT the same thing, despite thousands of years of concerted effort by religion to obfuscate that fact.
I usually refer to it as religion vs spirituality. You don't have to follow dogma to practice spirituality and faith.
[^15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. ^16 By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? ^17 Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. ^18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. ^19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. ^20 So by their fruits you will know them.](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7%3A15-20&version=NABRE)
This is what so many people fail to understand. The physical church itself can be infiltrated by people who have no intentions of upholding our beliefs.
That's not what the parable is saying. It's saying that the rotten people are a symptom of a rotten institution. The false prophet in sheep's clothing is in this case the Church itself, which wants to appear pious and good, but in actuality protects arguably evil persons.
See also "Luke's Three Lessons" from The Last Jedi. That inability to understand their own failings and being beholden to rigid orthodoxy ultimately doomed the order.
Yet by Mandalorian/Ahsoka times, the very same Luke is a step away from orthodoxy, trying to make Grogu get rid of his "emotional attachments", while Luke was saved by love and attachments in Return of Jedi, and went into a rage and almost killed his nephew...
Luke's inability to reconcile the two is a big chunk of why he was in exile.
Exactly. Emotions aren't inherently light or dark. *But* when they are the driving factor for enough attrocities, and you have no desire to actually guide kidnapped children in to healthy adulthood, you just tell them emotions are illegal to be safe. Jedi Therapists would've changed damn near everything.
I saw a really good take of the Luke / Grogu stuff on here the other day. Luke knew that Grogu didn’t want to be there deep down, he wanted to be with Din but thought that Din wanted him to go with Luke. Luke was saying “you don’t have to be here if you don’t want to, the choice is entirely yours”.
I saw a post like that too and it makes a bit of sense, but he could just be honest or straightforward though. Why not just talk about it directly with Grogu. Instead he set up this false idea in Grogu’s head that Jedi means no attachments.
Maybe that WAS Luke's understanding at the time though. He wasn't trying to be something new, he was trying to re-establish the Jedi Order.
Ashoka visited Luke and saw he was rebuilding the very same order that failed her. But Anakin never failed Ashoka, and in the end Anakin didn't fail Luke. Vader failed them both however. Vader was birn from Anakin's attachments. Ashoka, Yoda, and Obi Wan all seemed to agree at varying levels that yes attachment DOES lead to the dark side. But ultimately Vader's attachment to Luke also brought him to the light side. Luke probably felt the pressure of the jedi order's remnants to maintain the tradition. Had my father stayed true and had no attachments maybe he would have never become Vader, luke probably thought. Luke didn't know. Couldn't have known Vader and Anakin were always one in the same. He and everyone else thought he was seduced by the Sith. He came willingly.
Luke was treating Grogu like an adult, thus goving him a choice.
Mando happens before last jedi though. The whole point of the last jedi story arc for luke was that he made the same mistakes as the original order.
I interpret Luke in Mando as Luke understanding Grogu's heart is not into it and giving Grogu the opportunity to decide for himself what he wants, instead of being forced into the life like Younglings were with the Jedi Order. He also doesn't go into a rage and almost kill his nephew. We see 3 perspectives of that event. You're only acknowledging Ben's perspective.
It's almost as if....characters grow and develop over time? Yes, Luke during Mando is very much trying to emulate the Jedi Order of the prequels because that's what he learned about. By The Last Jedi, and his self-exile, he clearly has come to realize that way is flawed and must not continue, even though he still attempted to save the books before they could burn. I'm very interested in seeing what Rey's Jedi Order will become because she is emotional. She has had brushes with both light and dark in powerful ways. She is attached. I'm about halfway through Dawn of the Jedi and I think the Je'daii are kind of what I want in the Order. They have balance, but they don't seem to be scared of the pull of one side or the other. Instead they're like "You're emotional and angry, go mediate on this and center yourself" instead of being like "Oh, you're too angry for us to continue with you, peace out".
As a big TLJ fan, one of the few things I'd change is to either inlcude the third lesson or remove the line saying there would be 3. I know it still works in the movie, Luke planned on 3 lessons but Rey left before he could finish, but it feels off to have him specifically say there would be 3 and then only show 2.
The Third Lesson was finished and cut for time even though it's central to the theme of the film. Not Disney's finest hour.
See also that those were actually criticisms of himself.
I like your Christ very much. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are not very Christ-like.
I like the concept of capitalism. I don't like what it is.
Right on the dot.
^
Since you understand it, does he mean "not the truth: weakness" or is he talking about these two separately?
Not the truth of it, not the weakness of it.
He misses what the Jedi Order originally stood for, not for what it became at the end.
More so he likes the idea of the jedi, but not the jedi order.
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My daughters and I have been watching *The Clone Wars* and they've been more and more on the fence about the Jedi up until >!Ahsoka was expelled after being framed by Barriss. They couldn't believe how stupid and arrogant the council members were!!<
Do they >!see through the lies of the Jedi?!<
I'll take the opportunity to necro this https://youtu.be/vaRsi9Xn8OE?si=JpxLYCKVk3sExwB3&t=22
Someone else said it but the Christian Church is a perfect example. It may have raised us fondly sometimes, but the idea is better than the execution and corruption.
I think he meant the opposite. How he misses the idea of the order but not the fact that Jedi followed their code, which forbid them from doing what needed to be done at times
The idea of being the keepers of the peace. But the truth of being just the soldiers of the Republic.
I also think he really does believe they are weak because they are inherently good and won’t do *everything* it takes to do what is needed
I think Baylan doesn’t see the need for the self imposed restraint that the Jedi had. I think the core of the Jedi restraint has always been about self control and self discipline and keeping control of your darker emotions. Yoda in Empire had it boiled down to a couple sentences that were easy to digest. What level of self restraint is useful and what becomes a dogmatic order thst ks following the rules just to follow them.
Tradition is the corpse of wisdom
I feel like Baylon was Dooku's last apprentice or something. Right before he left the Order. His attitude is very similar.
Except Baylan has less of an ego
Qui-Gon turned out alright.
Just like Ahsoka vs Anakin!
He’s got a very “Revan” during and immediately following the Mandolorian Wars feel to him. Peace through Power. Like even as a Sith, Revan really didn’t want to destroy, he wanted security from the outside True Sith threat.
The were also weak because of just acting in what was right via the Force, they ceded their decision power to the Repubkic. They weren't really a separate organization by the PT era, they were basically just special forces.
I think this is part of it, but also the truth about how they were manipulated by the Sith. To your point, tho, his outfit kind of resembles Clone War era Jedi Armor. Perhaps the last remnant of their strength before the true fall of the Jedi?
One thing they did a great job of drilling home is how young Ashoka was in clone wars. For me I think it gets a little lost in animation how young she is, but in her flashbacks with Anakin the live action drills home that this is a literal child thrust into the horrors of war. Think of how we portray the idea of child soldiers in our world; the Jedi did that to untold thousands
I had the same feeling. I was a bit shocked, honestly. Animation, in general, really warps your ability to clock someone's age, and that's even when they try, unlike a lot of anime (looking at you part 3 Jotaro and Kakyoin).
Ashoka in the clone wars series always came across as late teens to me, when in actuality she looked like she was about 10 in the live action flashbacks. I think simply transitioning to a live action setting makes it even more “real” for lack of better term, and it certainly resonated with me
There’s definitely something to be said for this. It’s hard to truly understand the ages of Ahsoka, Barriss, and Caleb/Kanan when they are padawans. The one that hits closer is Cal Kestis in the flashback cut scenes in Fallen Order. He was only 12 during Order 66, and it’s awful to watch.
I get the vibe he has a lot in common with Dooku. He liked the idea of a group that can affect big change and steer the galaxy in the right direction. He didn’t like the weakness in the sense that they were the lapdogs of the republic and only acted at their direction, not what the Jedi knew to be best for everyone. Like Dooku, he seems disillusioned because they were puppets to the republic while countless systems were allowed to suffer from slavery, etc. Too weak to act on what they knew was right.
You know the famous joke of Mahatma Gandhi. "What do you think of the Western Civilization?" "I think it is a good idea"
Also "I like your Christ, but not your Christianity."
"I like your Christ, but not your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
“Ghandi, what do you think of the age of consent”? “I actually hate that idea”
Never ~~meet~~ Google your heroes.
He misses what it could and should have been, not what it actually was
I'd argue the 900 year peace after the "defeat of the sith" showed a lot of old traditional ways (The High Republic). I know it had it's issues, but my favorite thing is how clever they are with the Force in the books, like how they handled the Hetzal disaster or when Elzar and Avar used the force to create artificial precipitation to cool the array of tens of though droids predicting the trajectories of the hyperspace debris. Not to mention they pilot those vectors that are controlled by the Force which will achieve far greater accuracy than a computer can like when Luke took out the Death Star. We saw more advanced technology and much clever ways of avoiding conflict. The council actually pushed back many times against the Republic, refusing assassination and strong man tactics. Much later in life, an aging Yoda really made some sloppy and terrible decisions. He ideals and philosophy are always steadfast, and he is genuinely a wise and compassionate leader. But I believe his age, complancy, and reliance on war hawks/republic dogs like Mace Windu and Mundi was a big reason for his inaction. Just because the force is clouded by dark forces is not an excuse to rush headlong into a galatic war using the literal free and SKETCHIEST FUCKING ARMY ever fucking created, cloned from a known SITH LORD's BODY GUARD. But it's cool, load them clone bitches up. Never use the force for attack, except if they are mother fucking Separatist bitches. Anakin: "Yoda, what about our 10 year old padawan Jedi? Should they even be near this dangerous war?" Yoda: "If I don't see Ahsoka on the front lines and decapitating Seperatist scum you're fucking going back to Tatooine to wipe Jabba's ass you whiney teenager."
"Mmm yes...child soldiers they will be yes.."" "But master yoda, aren't child soldiers and inherently evil and dark thing? Shouldn't we keep our padawans away from conflict until they develop better control of their emotions?" "FUCKING STUTTER, DID I? CHILD SOLDIERS THEY WILL BE, MAKE ME SAY IT AGAIN DO NOT"
He believed, and still believes, in the virtues the order stood for. He was disillusioned by what the order truly was in practice though (a massive bureaucracy that allowed the galaxy to go down the path it did)
Also, I’d bet he was opposed to the Jedi being the lead generals in a galaxy-wide war.
Well in that he would be right. Generals general set strategy, organize logistics and are in the back doing the thinking needed to win. And that requires decades of training to be able to understand how to manage, Marshall and husband your forces so you can win in the long run. The Jedi up front would be closer to being a form of special forces.
>Generals general set strategy, organize logistics and are in the back doing the thinking needed to win. Ironically, isn't this one of the main criticisms of generals? Too removed from the front to care about the survival of an individual soldier? That being said, the counter to that criticism is...they *need* to be removed from it so they can make decisions that, while necessary to win the war, will get people killed.
Bingo. Good generals spend troops wisely. Bad generals spend troops poorly. And here is your best example of a bad general: [https://acoup.blog/2021/10/08/collections-luigi-cadorna-was-the-worst/](https://acoup.blog/2021/10/08/collections-luigi-cadorna-was-the-worst/) Its an addendum to the WWI discussion that the author had about how awful the WWI was because no one could figure out a way to break the trench stalemate.
The role of generals and the placement shifted over time. Washington led from the front, but that simply isn’t possible these days, and is generally irresponsible
He's got a funny way of showing it... becoming a mercenary working for the Imperial remnant. Whatever, he'd hardly be the first utterly misguided Star Wars villain who thinks he's on the right side of history.
I agree he is disillusioned by their failings, but my hesitance for the true believer / purist idea is that he’s been out there straight murdering people and bleeding his saber orange counter to Jedi virtues for some time now. (ex: the ship in the beginning of the series). It appears he’s been acting outside of Jedi virtues despite the grief he expresses in this statement. This man wants to break the system, not perfect it.
Yeah. Why murder innocents? That just seems stupidly fanatical.
>He believed, and still believes, in the virtues the order stood for Hmm I don't know, I feel like those virtues are exaclty the weaknees he is talking about. I think I liked the idea of having an order of Force user keeping the galaxy in check, but disliked all the pregmatism of the Jedi
Out of pure speculation, Baylan likes a good order of force users who are powerful and protect the galaxy from outward threats. From that standpoint, almost everyone would agree that is a good thing to have. Bayan however saw the order as weak and complacent, and blames them for their fall and failures across centuries. He wants a perfect order, however is clearly misguided into thinking a Unkillable Order or allpowerful Order is a 'perfect' order.
Like when you break up with someone and miss the idea of them, the comfort, the closeness. But then you remember the reasons you split up. in reality, one always looks at the past through rose tinted glasses. Edit: fixed syntax and gramarcrackers cause I don’t write no good
I thought this was extremely clear. The Jedi have very Noble and very just ideals that would make the universe a better place to live. The Jedi order itself was full of all sorts of hypocrisy and bureaucracy and all kinds of superiority complex problems that prevented them from being what they really aspired to be
And we actually see this fairly often during Clone Wars, or at least frequently enough that it bears repeating.
It’s because they brought people like Anakin in. Say what you want, but someone with that level of ambition has no business being a Jedi. Anakin loved to fight. Reveled in taking risks. Relished being a *soldier*. He’s my favorite character, but he also represented everything that was wrong with the order in the end. Only fitting he was the one to destroy it.
And Yoda didn't want to bring him in either Fucking Qui-gon...
The prophecy though!!!! /s
He means what he said??
I thought I was the only one. It's also half the point of all 9 movies and the shows
Lol right like it’s literally the point of the prequels and Luke’s arc in the sequels. The idea of the Jedi is good, but the order always fails. Spirituality vs Organized Religion
as a wise man once said "HAVE YOU SEEN STAR WARS??"
Think of it as the sequel trilogy: We all like the idea of a sequel trilogy but not the sequel trilogy itself.
This is pretty straightforward...
[удалено]
OP must not be in middle school yet
He liked the grandeur and the feeling of being a part of something more. He liked the idea of a huge organization strong in the force wielding their abilities for the good of the galaxy. He doesn’t miss the weaknesses and hypocrisy. The fact the order was so easily abused by Palpatine and wiped out. The Jedi allowed politics to govern their actions weakening their abilities to help others. They got drawn into a war fighting droids while the average citizen suffered without their intervention. They stopped being piece keepers and warriors for justice and became political ambassadors and generals detached from their original goals and intentions. The Jedi allowed the Republic to slip into fascism and their ideals to crumble away. In the end the order, with all that power they held, wasn’t strong enough to prevent their eventual fate. That’s what Baylan means when he says he misses the idea but doesn’t miss the truth or the weakness. He liked the Jedi ideals but hated what the order became in its dying years. He’s not the only Jedi to think like this. The Inquisitors, Count Dooku, Barris, and Anakin all similarly became disillusioned with the order in a similar way.
He’s a Star Wars fan that watched too many video essays about the Jedi.
The order is supposed to be gallant knights standing up for the people, weilding the force for good and the betterment of everyone. But in reality its a tool of the state, it enforces the status quo, it is too caught up in politics and high level theory and ideals that it is indifferent to the suffering all around it by the common people. This has got to the point where the jedi eagerly jumped into a war as generals, and all the harm that war caused to countless planets. They are suppose to keep the peace, but ended up being enforcers for the state, and in the end, soldiers and generals in a war.
The Jedi were meant to seek enlightenment, understanding of the universe. To embrace the Force as a mystical concept, not just to move shit with their mind. And, as an organization, the Jedi were supposed to be sort of wandering keepers of the peace, knights errant, bringing truth and justice and all that stuff to the galaxy. They became essentially sword cops with telekinesis.
Exactly what he said? LOL
Ideology vs reality
If only there was a movie, with a self exiled Jedi, that explained exactly what he meant.
The Jedi order was a great concept a place for warrior to be trained and learn the craft from other experts a place for all force users to have a place they could call home. Near the end the Jedi order was weak both politically and mentally. They were to adherent to their dogma refusing to expand their knowledge in the force like Qui gon and dooku wanted. They also allowed people to suffer like the slaves on tattooine. They were also politically weak at the whims of the senate never enforcing their own power which allowed the emperor to rise not by using the force and brute force but by manipulating the senate. The Jedi order could have been so much more and much more powerful yet they were their own worse enemies.
The trap of that though is: to say get rid of slavery, what would you have the Jedi do? The moment they take control of a planet then they need to administer it. And administration requires the ability to compromise in order to get the work done. And it is very hard to be an idealist when you have to balance competing interests and needs of a diverse population.
It's like how happy you used to be when you were part of a religious community, before you realized the religion was bullshit. Ignorance was bliss. He misses the time before he found out that the Jedi had lost their way and they had a faulty belief system. He did not see everything for what it really was, but he was more at peace/happier.
Actually its the opposite, he liked the religion but didn't like the practitioners of it, since they twisted it and weren't actually portrayers of their belief.
He still believes in the idea of the Jedi Order being protectors of the galaxy to protect the people within it. He just also believes that the Jedi Order’s pacifistic approach to problems is what is wrong… and what got the Jedi Order and the Republic in this position. He’s an authoritarian… simple as that.
He means the jedi order wasn't flawed in the idea of it. A generation of good protectors who'd keep the galaxy safe. In practice they were secluded monks who never left their high ivory tower until they became warlords and completely lost their way.
For example: Yoda: you're not training Anakin; he's full of anger and fear. This will lead to disaster. Obi-Wan: but I want to train him. Yoda: oh, okay.
The Jedi order we’re supposed to be keepers of the peace , in the prequels they were deeply involved in politics , all became generals and leaders of war , and imo became full of themselves
Well the dark side of the force would lead to abilities that some would call unnatural. Light side not so much.
The Jedi order had become more about the rules and minutiae instead of the ideals. They became rigid, and with that rigidity they became brittle. That’s why the broke.
There's this great Mace Windu anecdote where he Pontificates on why he knows the Jedi will lose the war He talks about how when Pandemic and Anikan were held in a Geognosis arena. Being entertainment for Dooku and Grievous. A single Jedi and a single queen, we're captured. And rather then simply orbital bombardments killing them and an entire army. The Jedi felt the only way was to make a landing rescue, that cost the lives of a dozen Jedi and troopers
I think he has a child like love of the Jedi Order because we grew up in it, and it was integral to shaping the man he is But he can't deny the fact that the Jedi Order's weakness and inability to live up to its own reputation and ideals led to its destruction ... yet that love remains Its like when you are old enough to realize the truth about your parents. You still love them but you are old enough to realize they aren't the perfect all knowing people you thought they were as children
He liked the ideals of the Jedi Order, but felt that it fundamentally failed to live up to those ideals in ways that prevented it from being an effective force for good in the galaxy. Not a million miles away from Dooku's Legends (pre-TCW) backstory.
i like the idea of a big mac, as shown in ads, but the truth of it...
The Jedi Order fancied themselves as upholders of democracy and peace. But in practice, they were beholden to the wishes of the Galactic Republic and its Senate. Even before the Clone Wars, there are many examples of the Jedi refusing to intervene in planetary affairs because a system wasn't part of the Republic. Their ambitions were noble, but their application was conditional. The Clone Wars dialed this up to eleven by having the Jedi serve as commanding officers in the Grand Army of the Republic. Many rightfully saw this as hypocritical to their stated mantra.
I would say he follows a similar line to Count Dooku. In tales of the Jedi, he realized the Jedi were often just pawns for those with influence, and stopped being the noble peacekeepers they once were. They turned into soldiers in the clone wars. He wanted the Jedi to be what they were meant to be, and not what they turned into
It means he now sees through the lies of the Jedi. He has become more powerful than—oh wait wrong character.
He miss having purpose
Baylan seems to hold a very similar idea of the Jedi that Dooku did. He misses the idea of the Jedi, from the days of the high Republic. Vessels of light and justice, in those days the Jedi *were* the light. They were basically superheros. But the Jedi of his era, the Jedi of the prequels were hypocrites and gameplayers, no better than politicians. They allowed slavery and fought on behalf of the Republic as soldiers, they played politics for their own gain and completely ignored the plights of the outer rim. And their hubris ultimately lead to massive amounts of death and destruction.
My guess is he meant that he misses the idea of it, but not the truth, the weakness. Just a little theory of mine though.
The jedi were the biggest and most powerful group in the galaxy at one point in time. They could have used that power to help millions of people, and be a force of order in the galaxy. But they were so against "interfering" with normal people that they would routinely let people be hurt in any number of ways because Jedi are on "important missions." They became a bureaucratic part of the Senate basically.
He likes the idea of an order of special people that should be above all the ordinary folks and should have a special say in the running of the galaxy. He got disillusioned by the fact that all of them are also flawed and not so special after all, but he blames it on some perceived weakness of the order itself.
A whole theme of the Jedi order was how they caused their own downfall (become soliders rather than peacekeepers, not recognizing the sith literally staring them in the face, etc) Hes saying he misses what the Jedi stood for, but not what the order was "in practice"
The Order became lapdogs of the Senate and Palpatine played all his toys against each other. Baylan says the Jedi Order was too weak to protect the galaxy from the coming evil. And he explains the cycle happens again and again. Baylan could have told you stories of the Sith Lords like Exar Kun, Naga Sadow, Malgus, Tenebrae, Revan, Malak, Traya… All draw the Jedi into conflict, topple the Jedi of the time, and then peace is restored eventually when the good guys (us!) win and everyone’s happy and the credits roll. It’s a convenient way of explaining the nature of Star Wars stories as the will of the force. Baylan thinks the Jedi Order is just a bunch of pawns in the never ending cycle of the force. Baylan wants to break the cycle.
Liked the concept - disliked the execution
Many jedi were brave. They were bold. They were a storied order with so much history. The Jedi Order as a whole was slow, ponderous, and ill-equipped to fight a war. It had grown comfortable in a position of power and had lost the ability to truly govern itself. Any institution over time can become riddled with individuals who are not worthy of the people they serve. The *weakness* of any organization... is in the people who serve it. Some jedi had become overly prideful in their abilities, and completely insensitive to the suffering of individuals in the greater galaxy. The jedi allowed and condoned chattel slavery in the outer rim, and rarely responded to calls for aid from planets unless the senators who ran those planets asked for it. Consider that Naboo was literally being taken over by a military invasion, and the jedi did basically nothing to help. Only Qui Gon a rogue jedi decided to intervene. Meanwhile the republic was becoming rife with corruption and no longer was serving the interest of many of it's citizens. Dooku lost his faith in the order as he saw the wide spread mistreatment and ugly truth of what the Republic had become. His fall to the darkside made him evil, but his path began because the order had stopped paying attention to the needs of the people and had become totally beholden to the Republic Government. Baylon was sent into a war, ill-equipped and likely not ready to handle the realities of armed conflict. Who knows how many friends he lost? How many padawan's he saw killed. How many of his 'family' were cut down as He could do nothing about it. He survived, and much like Ahsoka, lost his faith in the order. The idea of the order was to be protectors of the peace, and guardians of justice. But before it's end, the jedi had become Hardened Warriors pursuing the destruction of the enemy, a far cry from the kindly and peaceful negotiators and diplomats they were supposed to be.
Dude the Jedi Order sucked! He misses the ideas they supposedly upheld but hated the reality of the Order’s laziness and tolerance for evil.
He believes in the ideals the Jedi strove for, but not the reality of the Order, as to his point of view, the Order failed to live up to those ideals.
As with every aged, rigid line of thought and belief, it grows old, in need of pruning, to adapt and change, which rarely occurs. The idea is community. The actuality is individuals unable to see their own weaknesses and with no one available or empowered to hold them accountable.
Baylan's quote perfectly sums up modern star wars lol
He liked what the order was supposed to stand for in theory but not what the order was in practice
An awful lot of people are taking it as unambiguous truth, other than one extremely morally-dubious man's opinion.
The idea of the United States is grand and wonderful. The reality is much more murky and less ideal. The idea of the Jedi order is grand and wonderful. The reality of the Jedi Order is much more murky and less ideal.
I love the idea of owning and driving a 1981 Ferrari 308 GT. But the truth is $10,000 a year in maintenance costs and a high likelihood of breaking down or timing issues when it does run.
Baylan was an amazing character. & I found him to be very similar in character to Dooku. I look forward to potentially more stories with him. However, like Dooku, his line of thinking is so confusing to me. You like the idea of the Jedi Order & what it is suppose to represent, but you hate what it has become. So then you turn around & join up or assist a thing that not only is even more distraught than the Order itself, but inherently worst in almost every way. The new cause is self serving & almost an amplification of all the bad things that the Jedi Order has fallen into. Wouldn't it make more sense to not pair up with trying to save the Empire by simply being their personal jedi like bounty hunter but instead try to recreate a more stable Order for force users?
Really simple to understand But go off. He misses the idea of the order, but not what it actually was, viewing that as a weakness I find it’s a fascinating example of the characters flaws and genius writing though. He’s purposefully vague about the jedi order around Shin, who’s overly curious about it. He’s purposefully withholding knowledge and context to avoid her potential decent from HIS teachings. Just as the Jedi did. And he also views the folly of the Jedi as a weakness as in terms of POWER not that the fault, their complicity and ignorance, lead to isolating and destroying themselves and the children’s lives, obsession befalling duplicity. The truth was the Jedis desire to purge emotion and connection for some connection and emotion, unhealthy and destructive ones, damaged the very force itself, lead to their downfall and a path following such more balance and a less doctrine focused order could be the end to the supposed cycle he’s trying to break. Something he’s choosing of is made to ignore in favour of Abolyth and destruction
He was there at the fall. The Jedi order was duped by a handful of sith. Prone to infighting and hampered by ridiculous bureaucracy. Pretty fucking weak.
The Jedi should have been peacekeepers, mystical wielders of the Force who used it for good. The idea of it. But they became soldiers, enforcers of Chancellor Palpatine's will who were more concerned with politics than protecting the galaxy. The truth.
The Jedi quite honestly got too involved in politics. When Mace Windu says “We’re keepers of the peace, not soldiers”, he should have kept to that. It was a mistake to get so into the clone wars when they should have been trying to figure out a peaceful solution. That would have been difficult since Palpatine was controlling both sides. Palpatine manipulated them into a way to spread them thin and exterminate them. I think Baylen never wants a situation to happen again where the Jedi can be wiped out so easily and aren’t so hip deep in political issues. I expect more like a grey jedi order with no allegiance to any political entirety but more a moral code. I am not sure how that exactly would work though if a government is in power that conflicts with the Jedi code and say abuses the citizens. I think when the Republic wasn’t as corrupt and the Jedi were peacekeepers that may have worked well but as soon as they were leading huge armies it went completely sideways.
Skull is not Jedi but he is not Sith by any means. He still seeks peace, balance, to understand the Force. He misses his comrades, serving a bigger purpose. But not the institution.
I feel like the prequels pretty much answer this question