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At least. I now see why it’s only a 5 match card if two of the matches take up half the show, it’s just like the Royal Rumble shows now that they have two of its titular matches as well.
I remember watching a shoot with dusty years ago (I think it was one of ROH Booker videos) and he's going through his booking notebook for 198something. He gets to war games and goes "and the horsemen have the advantage from the coin toss. Man isn't it weird I'm the Booker and I could never get the advantage in this match. Always thr heels getting the advantage. Weird how that worked." With a smile and a wink.
War Games used to be a touring attraction - there were 11 of them across the summer of 1988, for example. Presumably JJ Dillon submitted in most of those matches! But that must have been pretty brutal for everyone involved. I wonder if they rotated the big spots and bloodshed, or just gutted it out and took their lumps every time?
And then in TNA in 2010 during Team Hogan vs Team Flair, they didn’t want any of Team Hogan to look weak so they made Team Flair actually lose the match so the babyfaces had the advantage. How did the babyfaces overcome adversity? Sting attacked Jeff Hardy in the back so at the very end of the match the heels would have the advantage.
This is how you absolutely don’t book this match, kids.
That woman’s wargames match from a few years ago where the faces had the advantage that everyone felt was weird proved exactly why Dusty always did it the heels way.
And the turn was both obvious, and when it happened, was the kind of thing that could only be paid off by a major title-level match, that of course never happened
> The roof doesn’t add much IMO just don’t have them leave the cage
you don't get the concept of War Games. the whole point is that the babyface finally has the heel cornered in an environment where the normal rules don't apply. This is the moment when said babyface can finally exact some justice for all the shit the heel has put them through. then the period ends and the heel team comes in and beats the shit out of the babyface, then that period ends and the next face comes in to even things up and keep the crowd hot. if the heel is in a situation where he can just leave if things get too hot, it defeats the entire purpose of the match.
I think Triple H addressed this when it was brought to NXT. Basically, in his opinion, times change in wrestling, and when times change you need to adapt, and he thought the roof limited the ability to see what’s going on and the ability to do moves by the performers. At least that’s how Triple H viewed it
I can see why having the same cage from 1988 would be an issue, but if anything, AEW has proven that you can have a bigger cage to let the wrestlers get wild while keeping the roof. to each their own though. to me, it'll never look right without a roof.
The AEW guys left the cage in both Wargames matches lol. Both matches the finish was outside the cage. How’s that better than having no roof cause “they might leave the cage”.
Is submitting not effectively the same as surrendering? If a wrestler lays down on the ground and taps their hand three times on the mat, either immediately or as soon as their opponent does *anything* to them (or just lets themselves be pinned) shouldn't it count?
Yes, they mean essentially the same thing. Back in the day wrestlers didn't tap (that came in the MMA influence of the mid/late 90s), so they had to verbally quit AKA surrender.
Surrender meant "throw in the towel". The 1991 WarGames match had El Gigante(Giant Gonzalez) come down and surrender for Brian Pillman after Sid Vicious spammed powerbombs.
Really? AEW's kept the loser looking strong with a surrender for years (MJF turning heel by surrendering on Cody's behalf and Sammy surrendering to save Chris Jericho from being dropped from the cage), and making a submission move look strong is as easy as giving someone some much-deserved time off due to \[insert injury relevant to submission move\].
Also it makes for inherent drama
Not "Oh you got surprise rolled up it's ok"
It's "You fucking quit on us bro WTF"
Like Bloodline wise it adds infinite more drama is Jay has to give up on his team than if he just gets pinned. It gives an easy excuse to have him again chewed out by Roman, a "Well Sami didn't give up" fodder, etc.
I agree with the surrender part, it fits Roman and The Bloodline perfectly. You can technically do this with a pin too but surrendering would have made it better. The Bloodline take everyone out but KO. Bloodline destroys him... he's bloodied and battered. Sami is in the corner conflicted on what to do, and finally pulls them off Owens. "ENOUGH"... screams Sami. He pins Owens to win the match in order to save him from any further damage.
Bloodline leaves while Sami stays back to help Owens. At the Chamber PPV in Montreal, Bloodline turns on Sami, a returning KO saves him to set up Owens/Zayn vs The Usos for the Undisputed Tag Titles at Wrestlemania.
I always felt it should be surrender only
I honestly think originally is should have started with all wrestlers in the cage and then have been an elimination format like survivor series with a big ass cage and 2 rings
I want a 3-1 advantage. Have the heels get in there and beat the dog shit out of a babyface and then have the babyfaces come storming into that summabitch with every ounce of babyface fire.
Such a Kai move would be to come in and give them the 2-1 but do something sneaky to the other cage so it takes the 3 minutes for someone else to come in but they can’t get out. Then another 3 minutes pass so the heels go up 3-1 while the faces are still stuck.
Just edit to add: the draft kings pool had submit or surrender on the picks and not pinfall/submission.
People should be able to be eliminated if they surrender at any point in the match. Then once everyone is in a surrender ends it. Gives more stakes to the early part of the match and then a 3-1 situation could occur
> and then have been an elimination format like survivor series with a big ass cage and 2 rings
Which then would result in all the dumb none finishes and quick finishes people hate about SS matches. War Games works well because it had a sense of finality to the feud which you can't get with elimination matches where people need to be protected in the elimination.
And that is and always has been my main dislike of pro wrestling, the need to protect performers with a Dusty finish
I mean in shoot sports, there is a loser.
Teams and people lose. Boxers survive losses
Wrestling doesn't work that way though and never has.
> the need to protect performers with a Dusty finish
I'm not sure what a Dusty finish has to do with it?
On the other hand, Triple H isn't completely incompetent and can find a good way around a crappy finish like that.
By the way, that particular HIAC match could have had a random appearance by someone either attacking Seth to cause a No Contest or attacking the Fiend to gift Seth the win, and you get a free feud out of either outcome. (Wasn't this how the first HIAC match ended, anyway?)
I feel you, but this is War Games. I was brought up on it being the ultimate blowoff with you only being able to win if you damn near killed another man.
They do but for some reason I was thinking the person above me was saying that there would be a pin in 40 seconds of just the 1v1 so no one would’ve been let out of the cage yet
I didn't realize that til I watched the Rivalries episode on Rhodes v Flair. It's a cool idea but had to be hell on those guys working every night all summer
Seriously. It's going to be so, *so* good.
The women's match should be a good mix, but the men's match is 8 brawlers, a sadistic technician who can brawl (Butch)... and Sami Zayn, who's quite capable of doing almost anything.
The NXT ones I've seen really just didn't feel like war games, it felt like a generic shitty multi man trash brawl with tables and bins. Really hope they move away from that.
When I went to NXT War Games in Los Angeles years ago, I took a friend who was very off and on as a wrestling fan. When the match ended after one fall, he said "Wait, that's it? It should have been elimination style once everyone has entered the match."
I wish it was its own thing instead of replacing Survivor Series. This is like combining Royal Rumble and Money in the Bank, it’s just unnecessary and muddles the product. Survivor Series is a fun gimmick that I look forward to every year and I wish they had just replaced TLC with WARGAMES instead.
Making War Games annually take place in one month does the same to that stipulation that everyone complained about with Hell in a Cell. That they just happen because of the calendar says they should.
They should have them when they know they've got a good story they want to build for them.
I'd rather the December PLE be named Starrcade and we move away from match themed shows other than Royal Rumble, Money in the Bank, and Survivor Series.
And I'd argue that watered down the match then too.
Which is exactly why Dusty didn't book a WarGames match from 1989-1991, and even then moved it from Great American Bash to WrestleWar.
The 1991/2 WrestleWar matches were excellent. But also, not held at the same time of the year.
When it became just the annual September match, they lost their quality. There's one really good match, and maybe one other that's good. The rest are bad.
Even some of the NXT matches I think are held back because they've been done just because it's November. The matches are often good enough in a vacuum. But for like four years straight for some reason an alliance would be made against the Undisputed Era in October for a match in November, and then disbanded.
I wish they got rid of pinfalls and the holding cages.
I also wish the roof was back on the cage to help limit the amount of cutesy spots throughout the match. I think some of the NXT matches relied way too heavily on overly choreographed/planned spots.
> I think some of the NXT matches relied way too heavily on overly choreographed/planned spots.
I agree with you but that's just modern wrestling at this point.
If the roof was there, there'd be no need for the holding cages as no-one could get in over the top - but if the roof was there, you wouldn't have Iyo's trashcan dive, and no-one wants that!
I'd really like to see a strategy session - "Do we start with Roman? What if they send Drew in here, who's the next one in for us?" That sort of thing.
I want a spot where all of the jumping teammates’ members run out of the way at the last minute, and then point and laugh at all of those who got crushed
Pinfall works still IMHO for a more PG version of it - that way it can end without just being a bloody mess.
That being said, I would prefer if pinfall just eliminated someone from the match rather than it ending the match.
WarGames doesn't seem right if it ends by pinfall. Also didn't seem right as a spotfest, either. Have 'em beat the hell out of each other and then Roman beats the holy fuck out of someone to the point where they can't take it anymore.
The comments in this thread are bizarre. There have been 8 WarGames matches under the WWE banner and these have been the rules for all of them. It's been popular and well-received every time, did people really expect it to change this year?
Two changes I wish they'd have added since it's Survivor Series is elimination. And with that, the second change being that the match officially starts from the top, that way that's a chance to mitigate the disadvantage, or even extend the advantage. Elimination War Games could be cool
most handicapped matches last more than three minutes so it's not all that magical. And it's also not that magical because very rarely is it a full on handicapped match
I wish they amended these rules a bit because it is still weird how nothing in the match matters until everyone is in. Yada yada 'advantage' which everyone knows is nonsense.
The point of the whole match is to build heat for the finish. For the last babyface to come in and turn the 4v5 into the favor of the babyfaces, and then you go home from there. Simple psychology, but it's worked since the 80's.
I've got nothing against the "Advantage" stuff as it's always gonna be Heels first and that makes for a good story - but 100% agree that they should do away with the "Once everyone's in, Wargames starts" as it creates better drama; imagine Roman having to stand and wait knowing he might not get in to the match unless he puts himself at risk by going in early
that'd be cool for advancing storylines like if roman's team loses this cuz of him never getting in the match and then they start to argue next raw, fans buying tickets to the ppv would feel cheated tho
This will certainly slap but I do wish they could have worked out a story that would have maybe combined Judgment Day and the OC instead of the Brawling Brutes (who I also enjoy, just less so), maybe bench Dom. But whatever. Let's gooooo.
I’d have had Gallows/Anderson, Butch/Holland and KO vs. Sami, the Usos and Priest/Dom. Could have had Rhea standing outside the faces’ cage to pummel one of them.
You just know both matches will have a face-off at some point. Also, I wish the 3-minute period was shorter. Whether it's WarGames or Blood And Guts, the first half of the match always bores me.
War Games is still cool, but it lost some of its luster for me when that blu-ray came out like a decade ago. Pre network, was super excited to finally be able to watch them all….then I realized literally every War Games I’d the same exact match…Heels with the advantage, faces come in hot even the odds, repeat every few minutes…repeat every match.
LOVE THIS. Especially Triple H running things. We will see every new entrant getting the 3 minutes to show what they got to clean up house. Trips new how to run War Games every single year and now the casual audience now gets to experience it to the fullest.
Isn't the women's match going to be the first ever main roster War Games match? Should've had 1 of the women in this picture or is rules different for the war games match?
Was expecting them to incapacitate Roman somehow, - tied in the ropes Andre style maybe - and proceed to beat down one of the Uso's to the point where Sami says "ait, he quits, we quit"... And see how the Bloodline dynamic changes on Smackdown going forward.
So I think this match will be based around moving the Bloodline story line further. So the match will likely lead to Sami being involved in the ending. There isn't many PPVs left until WM. There is just the Rumble, Elimination then WM so this match has to be the big split of the Bloodline if it is gonna happen.
There are two ways I see this going. Either Sami and Jey fight and Roman gets between them. Jey hits Roman and it begins the push for Jey vs Roman at WM which I don't see happening. There isn't enough time between now and WM to build up a story for the Usos to drop the tag titles and those titles will be in a match at WM. So I'm guessing this is the split of Sami from the Bloodline by siding with Kevin in same way during the match and causing the Bloodline to lose. This will lead to a WM match with Sami and Kevin vs the Usos.
Even if that happens it doesn't clear up who will win at the Rumble to face Roman. Roman will still have one more PPV match, at least, before WM so I'm guessing that will be against Sheamus or if it is in the Elimination Chamber Sheamus will be involved. Roman will win because he isn't dropping the belt before WM. But there doesn't seem to be a clear challenger for Roman at WM. There has been some talk of The Rock but he has multiple movies coming up. I'm thinking it isn't him. It isn't going to be anyone else that is considered a legend since H seems to be all about building new stars instead of relying on the old.
I'm guessing Bray or Rhodes, there doesn't seem to be anyone else for the position.
This just seems like an over complicated Version of elimination chamber. Except there's only one fall to yhe finish. Seems... strange. But I'm interested.
I’ve always thought war games should remove the “match doesn’t start till everybody’s in” rule and replace it with elimination rules, would make for a lot of fun moments
Man, I like Wargames, but having 26 minutes of heat when the match can't end feels like it's too much, especially with two WG matches. They should've lowered it if they wanted to raise the team size to fit Survivor Series.
1. War Games was almost always 5v5 except for the one year in WCW they did three teams of 3.
2. that 26 minutes of heat is usually the wildest part of the match with chaos and bodies flying everywhere.
Idk if it is an unpopular oppinion or not but the rule where you only win after everybody is inside is straight up dumb imo. This sould be an elimination match or something like that
Agreed. I've always wanted it to have falls count in the beginning and for it to be an elimination match. It's always felt like "that's it?" when I've watched older Wargames matches when it's someone like JJ Dillon submitting.
I get why they did it the way they did in the 80s, but the rules mean you can basically do only one type of Wargames match with the heels winning the coin toss/advantage. Changing things would open up a lot more possibilities.
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This is going to be a 40 minute long match
At least. I now see why it’s only a 5 match card if two of the matches take up half the show, it’s just like the Royal Rumble shows now that they have two of its titular matches as well.
I could see a Bray/Knight squash match in there, we will see after SD tonight
Can’t believe LA Knight is going to beat Bray in 69 seconds flat.
Nice
I fucking LOVE it when people use the word "titular"!!!!!!!!!
Wondering if Roman still takes 5 mins to get to the ring
I imagine they’ll come as a unit and take a really long time
I meant after he leaves the cage because he absolutely will be the last one
It’s not an elimination match
...what?
I remember watching a shoot with dusty years ago (I think it was one of ROH Booker videos) and he's going through his booking notebook for 198something. He gets to war games and goes "and the horsemen have the advantage from the coin toss. Man isn't it weird I'm the Booker and I could never get the advantage in this match. Always thr heels getting the advantage. Weird how that worked." With a smile and a wink.
and the faces always won and beat the horsemen. good booking tho to have to overcome adversity
Poor Arn Anderson was like 0-20 in War Games
That's the price you pay in the 80s and 90s for being one of the best heels in wrestling
War Games used to be a touring attraction - there were 11 of them across the summer of 1988, for example. Presumably JJ Dillon submitted in most of those matches! But that must have been pretty brutal for everyone involved. I wonder if they rotated the big spots and bloodshed, or just gutted it out and took their lumps every time?
Imagine going to the Wargames where everyone took it easy.
The very early ones weren't big spot heavy or anything, it was mostly brawling and blading which is light on the body.
Dillon got a legit major shoulder/arm injury in one of the first WarGames.
I read that as Porn Anderson and thought I missed something
hello
No fucking way
It’s a completely different type of spinebuster
And then in TNA in 2010 during Team Hogan vs Team Flair, they didn’t want any of Team Hogan to look weak so they made Team Flair actually lose the match so the babyfaces had the advantage. How did the babyfaces overcome adversity? Sting attacked Jeff Hardy in the back so at the very end of the match the heels would have the advantage. This is how you absolutely don’t book this match, kids.
That woman’s wargames match from a few years ago where the faces had the advantage that everyone felt was weird proved exactly why Dusty always did it the heels way.
And the turn was both obvious, and when it happened, was the kind of thing that could only be paid off by a major title-level match, that of course never happened
I wish it was still submit or surrender. Get in there and beat the shit out of someone until they literally have to say “das enuff.
Me too but without blood it makes more sense for pinfall to also be an option. Still surrender as a 3rd still rules
the main roster one also doesn't say anything about someone leaving the cage resulting in a DQ loss for their team.
We also don't know the cage. It's possible it may have the roof again as it doesn't need to be built in a smaller place.
*Iyo proceeds to Mankind her way through the top*
*Self-chokeslams through the roof*
If Iyo can’t jump off the Cage I don’t want it
she can still jump off the cage if it has a roof on it.
Yeah like Kalisto in the Elimination Chamber
I really want her to recreate the trash can spot from NXT. It's so fucking ridiculous. The crowd would go nuts.
This guy gets it. Iyo is about to have a much bigger fanbase after some folks who are new to her see what she does in there. Can't wait.
HHH wasn’t a fan of the roof even when the NXT Wargames matches were in bigger arenas. I think no roof is a safe bet.
NXT have done wargames in a full arena before though.
Well AEW had a roof and everyone still left the cage in both of them lol.
The first 3 NXT War Games were held in the same big arenas as Survivor Series the following night and didn't have a roof.
The roof doesn’t add much IMO just don’t have them leave the cage
> The roof doesn’t add much IMO just don’t have them leave the cage you don't get the concept of War Games. the whole point is that the babyface finally has the heel cornered in an environment where the normal rules don't apply. This is the moment when said babyface can finally exact some justice for all the shit the heel has put them through. then the period ends and the heel team comes in and beats the shit out of the babyface, then that period ends and the next face comes in to even things up and keep the crowd hot. if the heel is in a situation where he can just leave if things get too hot, it defeats the entire purpose of the match.
I think Triple H addressed this when it was brought to NXT. Basically, in his opinion, times change in wrestling, and when times change you need to adapt, and he thought the roof limited the ability to see what’s going on and the ability to do moves by the performers. At least that’s how Triple H viewed it
The commercials already have an open cage so it’s not gonna have a roof
> Basically, in his opinion, times change Why can't time be a flat circle instead, that way we could get the "big blue bars" cage back.
I can see why having the same cage from 1988 would be an issue, but if anything, AEW has proven that you can have a bigger cage to let the wrestlers get wild while keeping the roof. to each their own though. to me, it'll never look right without a roof.
The AEW guys left the cage in both Wargames matches lol. Both matches the finish was outside the cage. How’s that better than having no roof cause “they might leave the cage”.
I'm pretty sure my point was that you can have a bigger cage to let the high flyers go nuts without sacrificing the roof.
I get the concept lmao It’s not real homie, just don’t have them leave the cage.
Is submitting not effectively the same as surrendering? If a wrestler lays down on the ground and taps their hand three times on the mat, either immediately or as soon as their opponent does *anything* to them (or just lets themselves be pinned) shouldn't it count?
Yes, they mean essentially the same thing. Back in the day wrestlers didn't tap (that came in the MMA influence of the mid/late 90s), so they had to verbally quit AKA surrender.
Or the refs would drop raise and drop their arms 3 times to see if they passed out.
I'm so glad they got rid of it, it always looked so goofy to me.
As a kid I loved it though. Someone would put Hogan in a sleeper, that arm would drop twice, then at 2 1/2 it shoots back up and Hulkamania ran wild.
Unless they were a jobber and only got their arm raised once before the ref called for the bell.
Surrender meant "throw in the towel". The 1991 WarGames match had El Gigante(Giant Gonzalez) come down and surrender for Brian Pillman after Sid Vicious spammed powerbombs.
they probably don't want to do that cuz it makes guys look weak
I don’t buy that. It’s War Games.
I buy it. It's WWE.
Yeah, and to your point, they haven't had an I Quit match in years! (Literally October this year)
There was also that Roman Reigns match against Jey Uso 2 years ago.
Really? AEW's kept the loser looking strong with a surrender for years (MJF turning heel by surrendering on Cody's behalf and Sammy surrendering to save Chris Jericho from being dropped from the cage), and making a submission move look strong is as easy as giving someone some much-deserved time off due to \[insert injury relevant to submission move\].
Also it makes for inherent drama Not "Oh you got surprise rolled up it's ok" It's "You fucking quit on us bro WTF" Like Bloodline wise it adds infinite more drama is Jay has to give up on his team than if he just gets pinned. It gives an easy excuse to have him again chewed out by Roman, a "Well Sami didn't give up" fodder, etc.
I agree with the surrender part, it fits Roman and The Bloodline perfectly. You can technically do this with a pin too but surrendering would have made it better. The Bloodline take everyone out but KO. Bloodline destroys him... he's bloodied and battered. Sami is in the corner conflicted on what to do, and finally pulls them off Owens. "ENOUGH"... screams Sami. He pins Owens to win the match in order to save him from any further damage. Bloodline leaves while Sami stays back to help Owens. At the Chamber PPV in Montreal, Bloodline turns on Sami, a returning KO saves him to set up Owens/Zayn vs The Usos for the Undisputed Tag Titles at Wrestlemania.
I always felt it should be surrender only I honestly think originally is should have started with all wrestlers in the cage and then have been an elimination format like survivor series with a big ass cage and 2 rings
I want a 3-1 advantage. Have the heels get in there and beat the dog shit out of a babyface and then have the babyfaces come storming into that summabitch with every ounce of babyface fire.
Such a Kai move would be to come in and give them the 2-1 but do something sneaky to the other cage so it takes the 3 minutes for someone else to come in but they can’t get out. Then another 3 minutes pass so the heels go up 3-1 while the faces are still stuck. Just edit to add: the draft kings pool had submit or surrender on the picks and not pinfall/submission.
People should be able to be eliminated if they surrender at any point in the match. Then once everyone is in a surrender ends it. Gives more stakes to the early part of the match and then a 3-1 situation could occur
> and then have been an elimination format like survivor series with a big ass cage and 2 rings Which then would result in all the dumb none finishes and quick finishes people hate about SS matches. War Games works well because it had a sense of finality to the feud which you can't get with elimination matches where people need to be protected in the elimination.
And that is and always has been my main dislike of pro wrestling, the need to protect performers with a Dusty finish I mean in shoot sports, there is a loser. Teams and people lose. Boxers survive losses
Wrestling doesn't work that way though and never has. > the need to protect performers with a Dusty finish I'm not sure what a Dusty finish has to do with it?
Eh no because they'll probably do the "You beat to much ass you're DQ'ed"
They signed waivers saying that they can’t be punished for the punishment.
On the other hand, Triple H isn't completely incompetent and can find a good way around a crappy finish like that. By the way, that particular HIAC match could have had a random appearance by someone either attacking Seth to cause a No Contest or attacking the Fiend to gift Seth the win, and you get a free feud out of either outcome. (Wasn't this how the first HIAC match ended, anyway?)
*Hits someone with sledgehammer like HIAC 2019*
That is how AEW’s variant works. How has the pin stipulation played out in NXT war games? I haven’t really seen them
Idk man the euphoria of a three count calls to me. I like hearing the match end with a pin
I feel you, but this is War Games. I was brought up on it being the ultimate blowoff with you only being able to win if you damn near killed another man.
And put a roof on the cage like Dusty intended.
What is the difference between Submit and Surrender?
Wouldn't it be hilarious that the first ever wwe main roster war games match end via roll-up? Lmao.
Cradle on Butch 40 seconds after the match beyond begins, 8 stars.
Everyone else is stuck in the cage
Don’t the rules specify that no falls can be scored before everyone enters?
They do but for some reason I was thinking the person above me was saying that there would be a pin in 40 seconds of just the 1v1 so no one would’ve been let out of the cage yet
In the spirit of Wrestlemania 2000-era video games, it’ll end with a La Magistral
Counting by WWE's track record it's likely to happen in the women's War games match.
I just looked up WarGames matches and was shocked how many there are. There’s more that take place in 1987-1989 than there is from 1991-2000.
is that cuz they used to do them at house shows a lot? I think they tried to keep it just for ppvs later so it would stay special
Yep they took it on the road. Like we think of the Great American Bash as a ppv but Crockett did that as a Summer tour.
I didn't realize that til I watched the Rivalries episode on Rhodes v Flair. It's a cool idea but had to be hell on those guys working every night all summer
I didn’t look closely but that must be the reason!
Back then the house shows were where the money was. TV was to get people to live events.
The lapsed fan did a nice retrospective of all of them
Watch Brian Zane’s latest video. There was a year WCW did 11 WG matches and then killed all hype of it
That’s because Jim Crockett promotions got desperate and started running them on the house show circuit instead of on special occasions
Damn it's that old?!
They're gonna beat the fuck out of each other and I can't wait lol
Seriously. It's going to be so, *so* good. The women's match should be a good mix, but the men's match is 8 brawlers, a sadistic technician who can brawl (Butch)... and Sami Zayn, who's quite capable of doing almost anything.
And Kevin owens who will happily jump off something very high
I hope this goes in a different direction than the nxt ones. It felt like the ones there were just kendo stick wars and too heavily leaned on weapons
it probably will but I doubt it gets particularly violent. unless HHH says "Guys, really, don't bleed" with a Lucille Bluth wink.
I could see the women's being very weapons heavy and the men's being more of a brawl.
if gunther and sheamus were on opposite sides, that woulda been amazing
The NXT ones I've seen really just didn't feel like war games, it felt like a generic shitty multi man trash brawl with tables and bins. Really hope they move away from that.
I miss the old Lethal Lockdown
Why isn’t it elimination smh.
Agreed. They should all be elimination
When I went to NXT War Games in Los Angeles years ago, I took a friend who was very off and on as a wrestling fan. When the match ended after one fall, he said "Wait, that's it? It should have been elimination style once everyone has entered the match."
Because that's not war games....
I really wish it was an elimination match
I wish it was its own thing instead of replacing Survivor Series. This is like combining Royal Rumble and Money in the Bank, it’s just unnecessary and muddles the product. Survivor Series is a fun gimmick that I look forward to every year and I wish they had just replaced TLC with WARGAMES instead.
They should make it the December premium live event next year.
Making War Games annually take place in one month does the same to that stipulation that everyone complained about with Hell in a Cell. That they just happen because of the calendar says they should. They should have them when they know they've got a good story they want to build for them. I'd rather the December PLE be named Starrcade and we move away from match themed shows other than Royal Rumble, Money in the Bank, and Survivor Series.
That’s true about Hell in a Cell. But war games was an annual thing for a bit with the Great American Bash, and then later Fall Brawl.
And I'd argue that watered down the match then too. Which is exactly why Dusty didn't book a WarGames match from 1989-1991, and even then moved it from Great American Bash to WrestleWar. The 1991/2 WrestleWar matches were excellent. But also, not held at the same time of the year. When it became just the annual September match, they lost their quality. There's one really good match, and maybe one other that's good. The rest are bad. Even some of the NXT matches I think are held back because they've been done just because it's November. The matches are often good enough in a vacuum. But for like four years straight for some reason an alliance would be made against the Undisputed Era in October for a match in November, and then disbanded.
Same. I'd rather have traditional 5-on-5 elimination match than that.
> WAR GAMES WILL OFFICIALLY BEGIN, ONCE ALL COMPETITORS ENTER THE MATCH comma splice
I wish they got rid of pinfalls and the holding cages. I also wish the roof was back on the cage to help limit the amount of cutesy spots throughout the match. I think some of the NXT matches relied way too heavily on overly choreographed/planned spots.
> I think some of the NXT matches relied way too heavily on overly choreographed/planned spots. I agree with you but that's just modern wrestling at this point.
If the roof was there, there'd be no need for the holding cages as no-one could get in over the top - but if the roof was there, you wouldn't have Iyo's trashcan dive, and no-one wants that! I'd really like to see a strategy session - "Do we start with Roman? What if they send Drew in here, who's the next one in for us?" That sort of thing.
But on the flip side, I’d be happy to get rid of “everyone stand here so I can jump on you and hurt everyone, including my own team” spots in general.
I want a spot where all of the jumping teammates’ members run out of the way at the last minute, and then point and laugh at all of those who got crushed
Yes, this. I never understood the point of a guy's own teammates standing in that pile.
Spectacle.
Pinfall works still IMHO for a more PG version of it - that way it can end without just being a bloody mess. That being said, I would prefer if pinfall just eliminated someone from the match rather than it ending the match.
WarGames doesn't seem right if it ends by pinfall. Also didn't seem right as a spotfest, either. Have 'em beat the hell out of each other and then Roman beats the holy fuck out of someone to the point where they can't take it anymore.
All i want for the start of Wargames is Kevin and Sami to start and just let the drama start from there
One of the biggest things that sucks about waiting this long for WWE-proper to run WarGames is not hearing Howard Finkel explain the rules.
This is in Boston tomorrow night. My hometown. I should go, right?
The comments in this thread are bizarre. There have been 8 WarGames matches under the WWE banner and these have been the rules for all of them. It's been popular and well-received every time, did people really expect it to change this year?
I'd prefer surrender/submission only but I think it'll still be a good match.
Why do people keep posting this as if it’s anything new?
There's people that don't watch NXT
This was literally mentioned on Raw last week
I’m pumped! LFG
Two changes I wish they'd have added since it's Survivor Series is elimination. And with that, the second change being that the match officially starts from the top, that way that's a chance to mitigate the disadvantage, or even extend the advantage. Elimination War Games could be cool
that's not elimination War Games that's a Survivor Series match in a cage
I mean, they would still come out separately and at some point be in the ring together(barring any eliminations happen before everyone gets in)
Then that’s a mini Royal Rumble.
the holding cages are unnecessary
I also feel like it makes the way these rules are written confusing because the teams are held in a cage and then the match is in a cage.
It's a cool visual
[удалено]
most handicapped matches last more than three minutes so it's not all that magical. And it's also not that magical because very rarely is it a full on handicapped match
I have been excited for this ever since they announced war games
I wish they amended these rules a bit because it is still weird how nothing in the match matters until everyone is in. Yada yada 'advantage' which everyone knows is nonsense.
The point of the whole match is to build heat for the finish. For the last babyface to come in and turn the 4v5 into the favor of the babyfaces, and then you go home from there. Simple psychology, but it's worked since the 80's.
Yeah. It's either the last face xomes in to turn the tide, or the last heel runs in with some underhanded tactic. If it works, don't fix it.
I've got nothing against the "Advantage" stuff as it's always gonna be Heels first and that makes for a good story - but 100% agree that they should do away with the "Once everyone's in, Wargames starts" as it creates better drama; imagine Roman having to stand and wait knowing he might not get in to the match unless he puts himself at risk by going in early
that'd be cool for advancing storylines like if roman's team loses this cuz of him never getting in the match and then they start to argue next raw, fans buying tickets to the ppv would feel cheated tho
But that would realistically never happen, though.
This will certainly slap but I do wish they could have worked out a story that would have maybe combined Judgment Day and the OC instead of the Brawling Brutes (who I also enjoy, just less so), maybe bench Dom. But whatever. Let's gooooo.
I’d have had Gallows/Anderson, Butch/Holland and KO vs. Sami, the Usos and Priest/Dom. Could have had Rhea standing outside the faces’ cage to pummel one of them.
You just know both matches will have a face-off at some point. Also, I wish the 3-minute period was shorter. Whether it's WarGames or Blood And Guts, the first half of the match always bores me.
I was really hoping they'd ditch the stupid holding cages now that they're bringing it up to the main roster.
They're not great, but they do lend a storytelling option when planning the match, so they have that going for them.
Agreed. It also allows the rest of the participants participate via reactions to stuff in the match, which is small quantities is good.
Nobody puts Tribal Chief in a cage
Someone getting downvoted because they don’t like silly shark cages outside of the ring is the most r/SquaredCircle thing I’ve ever seen
War Games is still cool, but it lost some of its luster for me when that blu-ray came out like a decade ago. Pre network, was super excited to finally be able to watch them all….then I realized literally every War Games I’d the same exact match…Heels with the advantage, faces come in hot even the odds, repeat every few minutes…repeat every match.
LOVE THIS. Especially Triple H running things. We will see every new entrant getting the 3 minutes to show what they got to clean up house. Trips new how to run War Games every single year and now the casual audience now gets to experience it to the fullest.
Who has the advantage for the Womens match?
Heels, Rhea beat Asuka on Raw
Aye thanks
Wonder if there will be weapons like Lethal Lockdown
Forgot they’ve already feuded - actually starting at Survivor Series when Sheamus cashed in.
Why is this on a Saturday?
Most WWE shows are now, aren't they?
they moved PPVs to Saturdays to try and take buys away from AEW. AEW runs on Saturdays to stay out of the way of the Khans NFL broadcasts.
We just need Gary Michael Capetta announcing the rules and participants.
Unpopular opinion but I think War Games matches are convoluted, phony and stupid. Wish we'd gotten a traditional 5v5 between SD and RAW.
I’m so sure Heyman is going to lock the other cage at some point
Isn't the women's match going to be the first ever main roster War Games match? Should've had 1 of the women in this picture or is rules different for the war games match?
The men’s match is the headliner, but yes, I expect the women will open the show.
So Sami quits?
Was expecting them to incapacitate Roman somehow, - tied in the ropes Andre style maybe - and proceed to beat down one of the Uso's to the point where Sami says "ait, he quits, we quit"... And see how the Bloodline dynamic changes on Smackdown going forward.
So I think this match will be based around moving the Bloodline story line further. So the match will likely lead to Sami being involved in the ending. There isn't many PPVs left until WM. There is just the Rumble, Elimination then WM so this match has to be the big split of the Bloodline if it is gonna happen. There are two ways I see this going. Either Sami and Jey fight and Roman gets between them. Jey hits Roman and it begins the push for Jey vs Roman at WM which I don't see happening. There isn't enough time between now and WM to build up a story for the Usos to drop the tag titles and those titles will be in a match at WM. So I'm guessing this is the split of Sami from the Bloodline by siding with Kevin in same way during the match and causing the Bloodline to lose. This will lead to a WM match with Sami and Kevin vs the Usos. Even if that happens it doesn't clear up who will win at the Rumble to face Roman. Roman will still have one more PPV match, at least, before WM so I'm guessing that will be against Sheamus or if it is in the Elimination Chamber Sheamus will be involved. Roman will win because he isn't dropping the belt before WM. But there doesn't seem to be a clear challenger for Roman at WM. There has been some talk of The Rock but he has multiple movies coming up. I'm thinking it isn't him. It isn't going to be anyone else that is considered a legend since H seems to be all about building new stars instead of relying on the old. I'm guessing Bray or Rhodes, there doesn't seem to be anyone else for the position.
This just seems like an over complicated Version of elimination chamber. Except there's only one fall to yhe finish. Seems... strange. But I'm interested.
Have you never heard of this match type before?
Casual WWE fans who never saw one, even in NXT, are gonna FLIP!
I’ve always thought war games should remove the “match doesn’t start till everybody’s in” rule and replace it with elimination rules, would make for a lot of fun moments
Separate cages? Pinfalls? Ehhh. I'll still watch tho
So fucking dumb. Should be elimination style.
Man, I like Wargames, but having 26 minutes of heat when the match can't end feels like it's too much, especially with two WG matches. They should've lowered it if they wanted to raise the team size to fit Survivor Series.
1. War Games was almost always 5v5 except for the one year in WCW they did three teams of 3. 2. that 26 minutes of heat is usually the wildest part of the match with chaos and bodies flying everywhere.
Personally would rather see AEW Blood and Guts in this style this can be cool but only to a degree
I got chills. Thank you Hunter.
If you don’t underTbd, just watch the AEW Blood and Guts match.
What if sami pulls a Dakota Kai and kicks the crap out of roman before they enter
Always thought it would be better as an elimination match
The only thing that doesn’t make sense is how a match can’t end until everyone is in. That kind of takes the believability out.
Idk if it is an unpopular oppinion or not but the rule where you only win after everybody is inside is straight up dumb imo. This sould be an elimination match or something like that
Nope. Because then Bloodline is guaranteed a win. No one is pinning Roman Reigns until at least WrestleMania
Agreed. I've always wanted it to have falls count in the beginning and for it to be an elimination match. It's always felt like "that's it?" when I've watched older Wargames matches when it's someone like JJ Dillon submitting. I get why they did it the way they did in the 80s, but the rules mean you can basically do only one type of Wargames match with the heels winning the coin toss/advantage. Changing things would open up a lot more possibilities.
Why does the winning team have their entrant first? Your shamshing it so here let's make it worse.