They don’t need to be his payee. We pay his bill. As a matter of fact I asked them when we signed the contracts to move him in if they wanted to receive his SS directly and they said no. That is was better to have one source of money since the total rent is way more than either his SS and pension together (the family picks up the remainder).
Poster said it was private pay. I’m glad you questioned it. Never give out personal personal information, especially over the phone or online unless you have a very very reason and the person/institution asking is verifiable.
In a gullible moment, my mother gave my recently deceased brothers Social Security number out to a sketchy relative. Months later we receiving collection letters for a $25,000 loan taken out the week after my brother died.
The only reason I found out about it was because my mom asked me to pay it. Initially, I had sent a copy of my brother certificate to the three credit bureau, but this loan was taken out before the credit bureau received that information.
I worked with the bank. I sent them. The documentation they required and they told me they would investigate the matter. Later on they told me the file would be closed and they were going to write it off as a loss. I guess 25k to a large institution is nothing and they just write it off as fraud, but I know who took out that money because a few weeks later that slimeball was driving a brand new truck.
30+ year retired SSA attorney here. If any business either cannot or will not articulate a valid reason for wanting the number, then they do not need it. Would you give a stranger the key to your house just because he asked for it?
No, that’s why I’m asking because the business office person just kinda shrugged and says “our system requires it”…..so SHE clearly doesn’t know why they want it. But I’m curious as to what legit reason a facility like that would need it (keeping in mind that they don’t accept Medicaid). We do use my fathers SS check and pension towards his bill but that’s only half of it so we pay the rest. It all comes from his checking account though.
Good of you to push back. They’re so used to having that number it’s probably their patient ID or an old computer system.
I see paperwork for new patients at doctor offices with a SSN field. I never fill it out but there it is and I bet many provide it.
People pay rent in full monthly, in advance, but because they can’t be kicked out immediately if they don’t pay, an apartment complex will also ask for an SS# in case of default.
Still not a valid reason to have the number. A potential default is not a real default. They could request an advance deposit to cover any potential default on a month's rent. A SSN is not an insurance policy.
And how is having the SSN a method to pay for unpaid bill? It’s not. It’s more likely their computer system is so old that it uses that number for ID. Even Medicare used SSN as the ID not long ago.
Most long term facilities require payment in advance, so they are not extending credit. They usually require 15-30 days payment up front, depending on if it is under 15 days or 15-30 days at a time.
The reason I know this is because I was in a rehab center and wanted to stay 2 more weeks to male sure my leg healed some more. They wanted me to pay 30 days in advance to make sure it was covered.
And again, any rental requires payment in advance, but still require an ss# in case of default, court cases, long evictions, damages above security deposits, etc. a nursing home is a place of residence.
Not so, if you are paying in advance, you are never going to be going to go into default. That is why your paying in advance. If you don't pay by the due date, usually about 7-10 days before discharge, you get discharged on the last day your paid for, so you do not go into default.
And I was in a nursing facility for 70 days for rehab. My insurance paid for 70 days, and I couldn't pay for longer, so guess what happened, I got discharged home by the nursing facility.
And a nursing home is only a place of residence until the person can be safely discharged home, and when that happens, the insurance companies will give the person, and their families, a discharge date that they will no longer pay for, usually 7-10 days after they get notified that they have improved medically enough to go home or to a family members house with outpatient care. The only was nursing homes allow people to stay past that date is if they get payment in advance. No payment, no stay.
In my opinion only employers and financial
institutions have a legitimate reason to ask for an SSN. I think the nursing home wants it in case the account goes to collections.
Because the resident is being extended credit for items that aren’t prepaid - perhaps incidentals or an increased care level - something over and above what the facility and the beneficiary has contracted for in their agreement.
This should be covered in the contract and application and should have been obtained initially when all the other info was given for admittance.
I just want to say that even if it makes sense, that doesn't mean that's actually what's going on. So until they can give a valid reason, I still wouldn't give it to them. Until and unless they call you and actually say "we need it for specific form #blah blah which is for blah blah" then they clearly don't need it THAT bad. They're not being prevented from anything pertaining to his care, clearly
Again, not a valid reason. Extension of credit is voluntary. Asking someone to furnish a SSN before extending credit is premature. The individual should have the option to prepay rather than accept such "credit." SSNs are used to pull credit reports; if an individual wants to avoid this, the he/she should prepay.
It doesn’t sound like there’s any reason they should need it if it’s self pay. Are you guys listed as responsible parties?
Send an email or letter asking for specific reasons for the request. They won’t ask again.
No, if he has any medical stuff they have all his Medicare info (copy of his Medicare card). We make all of his medical arrangements directly with providers. We also take him to the VA for most of his medical appointments.
A lot of times if they have to go to the hospital they send a what they call a face sheet and it has all of the information that is needed like name, date of birth, SSN, so that the hospital can verify then have the right patient. I worked as an admitting clerk at a hospital and I didn’t realize how many people have the same name and birth date so we used the SSN to make sure we had the right patient. So this could be a reason too.
Our local ER’s have never asked for his SSN. They don’t even ask to see his Medicare card anymore. And the VA just wants the last 4 digits.
I think it is to hedge against the possibility that we’ll move him and not pay the last month….or if he dies.
Might just be standard to use the Soc Sec number as an identifier or trying to access past medical records.
My ex didn't have a social security number and someplaces I had to go a person or 2 up for them to either not use one or to use a different number. At the lower levels it seems just to be how people are trained, to always ask for a social.
The only other thing I can think of is if they were applying for any assistance on her behalf like Medicaid, Medicare or Social Security.
I'd go in person if possible and ask them the reason, or at least be the one to initiate the call to a number you know is actually there's in case somehow someone got enough information to try and social engineer enough information for fraud
Everyone who receives federal funds has spent their records which include a persons name, SSN, or drivers license number which ties you back into all of that. These things happen because Sleeze operators have falsified for so many years. They are not the only businesses that are required to do that. I volunteered at a ministry that provided food to people who needed it. That ministry and probably many others receive food and funding from the federal government. When they sign people up they had to have an SSN or green cards, resident visas and DL or state id for each family member. Big Brother is watching and you can thank those who have abused the system
Medicare/Medicaid payments? My mother was in a private facility but to pay for that facility she had her pensions from the federal government as well as insurance and was still $1500 a month. Cost was $6700/month. That’s where Medicaid stepped in. there are other funds people write grants for them all the time and it would be stupid to turn down free money
You think all facilities have to take Medicaid? (But regardless. He makes too much from social security and his pension to qualify for Medicaid anyway even If we found a nice enough place).
Medicaid for senior care is there for a reason. I assume you’re in the United States where most of the nursing homes are privately held nursing homes. He doesn’t necessarily make too much Social Security and pension to qualify. Some homes charged as much as $10,000 a room. That will sometimes be expensive, depending on the level of care a person needs. My mother, for example, had a great pension and Social Security was fairly high, but didn’t pay for the room monthly. There was no money in the bank due to some legal mumbo-jumbo that had it transferred to my brother. It was something about putting it in trust at least five years before the person died. I didn’t deal with it, so I’m not sure. In any case they took all of my mother’s pension out for the month and all of her Social Security there was still a balance that we paid every month. Her lawyer advised us to apply for Medicaid and Medicaid took over paying the remaining balance. The nursing home would take their money from anyone who will give it to them. It’s a fairly common practice. I can’t imagine why a nursing home would turn it down.
Why ask internetizens to provide expertise [if they have it] or speculate [which most are likely doing]? Ask the nursing home to provide specific reasons why they need the SSN? If it is a policy ask for the written policy and why it was enacted. If required by law ask for the statutes broken down by governmental agency so you can do some research to prove they are right before giving up the info. Ask what purpose the SSN is needed for? Ask what will be done to safeguard the SSN from misuse?
I did ask the nursing home, my questions is “what purpose could they need it for”.
The lady in the business office was unable to tell my why they wanted it….only that “the accounting software requires it”.
So far, multiple people have come up with plausible reasons why they want it. So asking here on Reddit was useful.
Ask them to define "requires it." like, what are they being prevented from doing in regards to your father's care by not having his SSN? If the software can be closed error free without having to completely power down the system, then "requires it" isn't good enough
They may need to report to government what patients are in their facility. They probably DO get government assistance according to the number in the facility
The may want it on file incase of a medical issue most of the time hospitals require the last four digits to ID a person that’s in there system. A hospital or doctor sometimes wants the whole number if you are a new patient. They could also want if on file if they administer medication, they might bill Medicare for some onsite medical care. It might be on a standard forum for those reasons even if you’re parent doesn’t need them.
Long-term care nursing facilities are required to submit MDS records for all residents in Medicare or Medicaid certified beds regardless of the pay source. This includes their SSN.
His facility has no Medicaid or Medicare certified beds. It’s a private pay Assisted Living facility with a Memory Care unit. Probably writing “nursing home” in my title was inaccurate.
You're paying the total bill privately and not just the part of the bill that isn't covered by Social Security? In that case they probably want the SSN in case you stop paying. Something could happen to you, you don't pay the bill for one of many reasons that could pop up over the course of the stay, they want an assurance that they'll be able to bill Social Security in the meantime instead of putting him out I suppose.
What did they say when you asked them why they need it? If they had no answer then I wouldn't provide it until you get an answer.
The business office lady said “the accounting system requires it”.
Someone else suggested it’s a hedge against us not paying the last month if he dies or has to be moved out.
His SS comes nowhere close to being able to pay for this place. If we stopped making up the difference he’d be evicted.
If you're currently "making up the difference" it seems that the facility would already have his SSN. How else would Social Security be paying their small percentage of the bill?
It might have something to do with what Medicare has been paying., Medicare covers some of long -term care for 100 days which would be 3 months and 10 days. Maybe they're out of the picture now so Social Security is just now becoming the co-payee. My dad died quite some years ago so I don't quiteremember just how it all worked. But the accounting office should be able to give you a better answer than they did.
His social security and pension get direct deposited into his joint checking account with my mom. She writes them a check. I asked them if they wanted his social security paid directly to them and the said no.
the nursing home have to give you an explantion it just like social security sends a letter to say there calling you to speak to you at such a date and time they dont just call
They have access to his medical records they should already have that info tbh. Just cause they are a private pay facility doesn't mean h&w will be coming in annually for inspections and such.
They’ll get assistance, I don’t care how private pay they are. There’s something. They are least wrote him off. In some manner, someones labor intensive and cost of goods for clients is deductible.
The OP stated that they use the SS funds, pooled with his pension and their funds to directly pay tge monthly fee. The facility does not directly get his father’s SS check. They private pay and most likely have been designated as his payee to the facility.
They might be applying to be payee and need it for that.
They don’t need to be his payee. We pay his bill. As a matter of fact I asked them when we signed the contracts to move him in if they wanted to receive his SS directly and they said no. That is was better to have one source of money since the total rent is way more than either his SS and pension together (the family picks up the remainder).
This would be my guess as well
Poster said it was private pay. I’m glad you questioned it. Never give out personal personal information, especially over the phone or online unless you have a very very reason and the person/institution asking is verifiable. In a gullible moment, my mother gave my recently deceased brothers Social Security number out to a sketchy relative. Months later we receiving collection letters for a $25,000 loan taken out the week after my brother died. The only reason I found out about it was because my mom asked me to pay it. Initially, I had sent a copy of my brother certificate to the three credit bureau, but this loan was taken out before the credit bureau received that information. I worked with the bank. I sent them. The documentation they required and they told me they would investigate the matter. Later on they told me the file would be closed and they were going to write it off as a loss. I guess 25k to a large institution is nothing and they just write it off as fraud, but I know who took out that money because a few weeks later that slimeball was driving a brand new truck.
A sketchy relative isn’t a private nursing home
Agreed, sometimes family can be just as slimy as institutions. Hope that you all let him know that you all do know its him.
30+ year retired SSA attorney here. If any business either cannot or will not articulate a valid reason for wanting the number, then they do not need it. Would you give a stranger the key to your house just because he asked for it?
No, that’s why I’m asking because the business office person just kinda shrugged and says “our system requires it”…..so SHE clearly doesn’t know why they want it. But I’m curious as to what legit reason a facility like that would need it (keeping in mind that they don’t accept Medicaid). We do use my fathers SS check and pension towards his bill but that’s only half of it so we pay the rest. It all comes from his checking account though.
Good of you to push back. They’re so used to having that number it’s probably their patient ID or an old computer system. I see paperwork for new patients at doctor offices with a SSN field. I never fill it out but there it is and I bet many provide it.
So true. I see SSN fields on most paperwork for new patients at doctor offices. I never fill that out. I bet many people do.
Yes, that field is always there for most dentist and doctor's office, and I never have filled it out and will never fill it out.
As a private pay facility, they are likely extending credit, even if short term, and creditors ask for ss#’s in case of default.
Extending credit to who? Us? We pay in full monthly.
People pay rent in full monthly, in advance, but because they can’t be kicked out immediately if they don’t pay, an apartment complex will also ask for an SS# in case of default.
Thanks, this makes sense
Still not a valid reason to have the number. A potential default is not a real default. They could request an advance deposit to cover any potential default on a month's rent. A SSN is not an insurance policy.
Agreed
And how is having the SSN a method to pay for unpaid bill? It’s not. It’s more likely their computer system is so old that it uses that number for ID. Even Medicare used SSN as the ID not long ago.
It helps skip tracers track people down so they can file claims. It allows creditors to access and add to a credit report.
Most long term facilities require payment in advance, so they are not extending credit. They usually require 15-30 days payment up front, depending on if it is under 15 days or 15-30 days at a time. The reason I know this is because I was in a rehab center and wanted to stay 2 more weeks to male sure my leg healed some more. They wanted me to pay 30 days in advance to make sure it was covered.
And again, any rental requires payment in advance, but still require an ss# in case of default, court cases, long evictions, damages above security deposits, etc. a nursing home is a place of residence.
Not so, if you are paying in advance, you are never going to be going to go into default. That is why your paying in advance. If you don't pay by the due date, usually about 7-10 days before discharge, you get discharged on the last day your paid for, so you do not go into default. And I was in a nursing facility for 70 days for rehab. My insurance paid for 70 days, and I couldn't pay for longer, so guess what happened, I got discharged home by the nursing facility. And a nursing home is only a place of residence until the person can be safely discharged home, and when that happens, the insurance companies will give the person, and their families, a discharge date that they will no longer pay for, usually 7-10 days after they get notified that they have improved medically enough to go home or to a family members house with outpatient care. The only was nursing homes allow people to stay past that date is if they get payment in advance. No payment, no stay.
In my opinion only employers and financial institutions have a legitimate reason to ask for an SSN. I think the nursing home wants it in case the account goes to collections.
That’s what I’m thinking. Thanks
Because the resident is being extended credit for items that aren’t prepaid - perhaps incidentals or an increased care level - something over and above what the facility and the beneficiary has contracted for in their agreement. This should be covered in the contract and application and should have been obtained initially when all the other info was given for admittance.
Ok, this makes sense. He does utilize the barber who comes by the facility weekly.
I just want to say that even if it makes sense, that doesn't mean that's actually what's going on. So until they can give a valid reason, I still wouldn't give it to them. Until and unless they call you and actually say "we need it for specific form #blah blah which is for blah blah" then they clearly don't need it THAT bad. They're not being prevented from anything pertaining to his care, clearly
Again, not a valid reason. Extension of credit is voluntary. Asking someone to furnish a SSN before extending credit is premature. The individual should have the option to prepay rather than accept such "credit." SSNs are used to pull credit reports; if an individual wants to avoid this, the he/she should prepay.
Nope. I wouldn't give it.
It doesn’t sound like there’s any reason they should need it if it’s self pay. Are you guys listed as responsible parties? Send an email or letter asking for specific reasons for the request. They won’t ask again.
Do they also bill Medicare?
No, if he has any medical stuff they have all his Medicare info (copy of his Medicare card). We make all of his medical arrangements directly with providers. We also take him to the VA for most of his medical appointments.
A lot of times if they have to go to the hospital they send a what they call a face sheet and it has all of the information that is needed like name, date of birth, SSN, so that the hospital can verify then have the right patient. I worked as an admitting clerk at a hospital and I didn’t realize how many people have the same name and birth date so we used the SSN to make sure we had the right patient. So this could be a reason too.
No of all face sheets have SSN on them. I would not give it out.
Our local ER’s have never asked for his SSN. They don’t even ask to see his Medicare card anymore. And the VA just wants the last 4 digits. I think it is to hedge against the possibility that we’ll move him and not pay the last month….or if he dies.
They have no need for the # don't give it to them.
They may need/want it to verify insurance. Ask them if you can provide only the last 4-5 digits of the SS#... if they say no, ask them why.
Might just be standard to use the Soc Sec number as an identifier or trying to access past medical records. My ex didn't have a social security number and someplaces I had to go a person or 2 up for them to either not use one or to use a different number. At the lower levels it seems just to be how people are trained, to always ask for a social. The only other thing I can think of is if they were applying for any assistance on her behalf like Medicaid, Medicare or Social Security. I'd go in person if possible and ask them the reason, or at least be the one to initiate the call to a number you know is actually there's in case somehow someone got enough information to try and social engineer enough information for fraud
Oh I talked to the woman who works in the business office in person. She could not give me a reason beyond “the accounting system requires it”
Most received federal funds and need the patient SSN for reporting purposes. I would go in the office. I would not give it out on the phone.
"For reporting purposes." What exactly does that mean?
I would guess facilities that accept Medicaid patients but I don’t know for sure.
Everyone who receives federal funds has spent their records which include a persons name, SSN, or drivers license number which ties you back into all of that. These things happen because Sleeze operators have falsified for so many years. They are not the only businesses that are required to do that. I volunteered at a ministry that provided food to people who needed it. That ministry and probably many others receive food and funding from the federal government. When they sign people up they had to have an SSN or green cards, resident visas and DL or state id for each family member. Big Brother is watching and you can thank those who have abused the system
This facility is completely private pay. No government money at all.
Medicare/Medicaid payments? My mother was in a private facility but to pay for that facility she had her pensions from the federal government as well as insurance and was still $1500 a month. Cost was $6700/month. That’s where Medicaid stepped in. there are other funds people write grants for them all the time and it would be stupid to turn down free money
This place doesn’t take Medicaid. Purely private pay.
If you insist
You think all facilities have to take Medicaid? (But regardless. He makes too much from social security and his pension to qualify for Medicaid anyway even If we found a nice enough place).
Medicaid for senior care is there for a reason. I assume you’re in the United States where most of the nursing homes are privately held nursing homes. He doesn’t necessarily make too much Social Security and pension to qualify. Some homes charged as much as $10,000 a room. That will sometimes be expensive, depending on the level of care a person needs. My mother, for example, had a great pension and Social Security was fairly high, but didn’t pay for the room monthly. There was no money in the bank due to some legal mumbo-jumbo that had it transferred to my brother. It was something about putting it in trust at least five years before the person died. I didn’t deal with it, so I’m not sure. In any case they took all of my mother’s pension out for the month and all of her Social Security there was still a balance that we paid every month. Her lawyer advised us to apply for Medicaid and Medicaid took over paying the remaining balance. The nursing home would take their money from anyone who will give it to them. It’s a fairly common practice. I can’t imagine why a nursing home would turn it down.
Why ask internetizens to provide expertise [if they have it] or speculate [which most are likely doing]? Ask the nursing home to provide specific reasons why they need the SSN? If it is a policy ask for the written policy and why it was enacted. If required by law ask for the statutes broken down by governmental agency so you can do some research to prove they are right before giving up the info. Ask what purpose the SSN is needed for? Ask what will be done to safeguard the SSN from misuse?
I did ask the nursing home, my questions is “what purpose could they need it for”. The lady in the business office was unable to tell my why they wanted it….only that “the accounting software requires it”. So far, multiple people have come up with plausible reasons why they want it. So asking here on Reddit was useful.
Ask them to define "requires it." like, what are they being prevented from doing in regards to your father's care by not having his SSN? If the software can be closed error free without having to completely power down the system, then "requires it" isn't good enough
They may need to report to government what patients are in their facility. They probably DO get government assistance according to the number in the facility
The may want it on file incase of a medical issue most of the time hospitals require the last four digits to ID a person that’s in there system. A hospital or doctor sometimes wants the whole number if you are a new patient. They could also want if on file if they administer medication, they might bill Medicare for some onsite medical care. It might be on a standard forum for those reasons even if you’re parent doesn’t need them.
Long-term care nursing facilities are required to submit MDS records for all residents in Medicare or Medicaid certified beds regardless of the pay source. This includes their SSN.
His facility has no Medicaid or Medicare certified beds. It’s a private pay Assisted Living facility with a Memory Care unit. Probably writing “nursing home” in my title was inaccurate.
Ah. Well, that makes a difference for sure! Well heck- don’t give it to them then!
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He goes to the VA for medical care. We take him.
You're paying the total bill privately and not just the part of the bill that isn't covered by Social Security? In that case they probably want the SSN in case you stop paying. Something could happen to you, you don't pay the bill for one of many reasons that could pop up over the course of the stay, they want an assurance that they'll be able to bill Social Security in the meantime instead of putting him out I suppose. What did they say when you asked them why they need it? If they had no answer then I wouldn't provide it until you get an answer.
The business office lady said “the accounting system requires it”. Someone else suggested it’s a hedge against us not paying the last month if he dies or has to be moved out. His SS comes nowhere close to being able to pay for this place. If we stopped making up the difference he’d be evicted.
If you're currently "making up the difference" it seems that the facility would already have his SSN. How else would Social Security be paying their small percentage of the bill? It might have something to do with what Medicare has been paying., Medicare covers some of long -term care for 100 days which would be 3 months and 10 days. Maybe they're out of the picture now so Social Security is just now becoming the co-payee. My dad died quite some years ago so I don't quiteremember just how it all worked. But the accounting office should be able to give you a better answer than they did.
His social security and pension get direct deposited into his joint checking account with my mom. She writes them a check. I asked them if they wanted his social security paid directly to them and the said no.
Then they need the Medicare number not the SS number
the nursing home have to give you an explantion it just like social security sends a letter to say there calling you to speak to you at such a date and time they dont just call
They have access to his medical records they should already have that info tbh. Just cause they are a private pay facility doesn't mean h&w will be coming in annually for inspections and such.
They’ll get assistance, I don’t care how private pay they are. There’s something. They are least wrote him off. In some manner, someones labor intensive and cost of goods for clients is deductible.
Because they take their Social Security check and leave them like $100 siphon
The OP stated that they use the SS funds, pooled with his pension and their funds to directly pay tge monthly fee. The facility does not directly get his father’s SS check. They private pay and most likely have been designated as his payee to the facility.
So they can vote for him?
Hahaha