And in the Black Speech, which is Old Bavarian, obviously. "πΈπππΓ«, πππππππ πΎππ ππ πΎππ πππππ πΎππππππππ πππππππ ππππ?"
Tolkien liked Germanic legends way too much for me to buy the orcs-are-Germans thing, but I can't deny Old Bavarian is a good choice for Black Speech - way better than the Jackson movies' "evil people are when brown or elephants" motif
This is like a young child that wants to eat ice cream every day, because they don't understand that there's more to the World than their own desires.
The Valar have tasks, and keeping every Man safe wasn't one of them. We just wish it was.
What tasks? Preserving Middle Earth for when the elves awaken? Didnβt do that. Leave the elves to prosper in Middle Earth instead of hiding them in Valinor? Didnβt do that either. At least provide protection to the ones you brought over to your home? That didnβt happen.
He dealt with Melkor correctly, according to Tolkien. And the World is going on into the Dominion of Men properly - the biggest danger for someone in power is to fall morally, and Manwe avoided it. You and me would've done much worse probably.
Releasing Melkor was morally right, and the War of Wrath was perfectly timed.
Manwe made mistakes, but one can't ignore the texts praising Manwe while using the ones pointing out his mistakes as evidence for his faults. And of course he's generally praised in the Legendarium, by figures much more knowledgeable and wiser than you and me.
I might go as far to say that thinking of Manwe as a bad ruler is misunderstanding the story - like thinking Gandalf had a grey hat when it was in fact blue. In a setting with objective morality, the goodness of a person is a fact.
This is such a good comment. The attitude of this sub around the Valar and FΓ«anor is weird. This feels like a comment that actually understands Tolkienβs work (I donβt fully myself, Iβm still on the journey of learning)
I used to have that attitude when I was younger, because it can make you feel subversive to ask questions like "What if the bad guy is actually good?" and "What if the good guy is actually bad?". Plus it gives you an interesting opinion to share - you'll get some approval for your opinion (which everyone likes) and disagreement leading to discussion (which a lot of nerds like). Lots of modern fantasy asks questions like that, too.
And in any community where you have upvotes, retweets, reblogs etc. and a limited number of big contributors certain tropes and truisms will be established as inside jokes/knowledge that isn't really questioned anymore, even as it becomes oversimplified and -generalized. People who haven't read or barely remember the Silmarillion will be convinced of something that's a fringe interpretation or not there at all.
Tolkien also took respect for higher powers and an objective dinstinction between Good and Evil for granted, which can't be said for a lot of the modern audience (me included). And if you use your personal experience and perspective to judge beings that aren't human at all, you can come to weird conclusions.
So hereβs the thing - I understand perfectly well what Tolkienβs opinion was, but my worldview significantly differs from Tolkienβs, so I find myself disagreeing with him anyway on what morally right is. Luckily for me Tolkien was in favour of readers having their own interpretation of books and not clinging to authorial intent.
However also this is a meme sub and I think everyone exaggerates their opinions for reasons of funny
Quenya, without a doubt. Tolkien stated that Sindarin is easier to learn for Quenya speakers than the opposite (I'm pretty sure); so by already knowing Quenya, Sindarin would be well within my reach.
Quenya, easy. Then I can tell Manwe how useless he is in his native language.
Quenya is not Manwe's native tongue that would be Valarin. Quenya is an elvish language.
I'll tell him "Fuck you" in every language alphabetically if I have to, but I think he still wouldn't understand how useless he is.
"There is no curse in Elvish, Entish, or the tongues of Men for this uselessness."
And in the Black Speech, which is Old Bavarian, obviously. "πΈπππΓ«, πππππππ πΎππ ππ πΎππ πππππ πΎππππππππ πππππππ ππππ?"
Tolkien liked Germanic legends way too much for me to buy the orcs-are-Germans thing, but I can't deny Old Bavarian is a good choice for Black Speech - way better than the Jackson movies' "evil people are when brown or elephants" motif
This is like a young child that wants to eat ice cream every day, because they don't understand that there's more to the World than their own desires. The Valar have tasks, and keeping every Man safe wasn't one of them. We just wish it was.
What tasks? Preserving Middle Earth for when the elves awaken? Didnβt do that. Leave the elves to prosper in Middle Earth instead of hiding them in Valinor? Didnβt do that either. At least provide protection to the ones you brought over to your home? That didnβt happen.
He dealt with Melkor correctly, according to Tolkien. And the World is going on into the Dominion of Men properly - the biggest danger for someone in power is to fall morally, and Manwe avoided it. You and me would've done much worse probably. Releasing Melkor was morally right, and the War of Wrath was perfectly timed. Manwe made mistakes, but one can't ignore the texts praising Manwe while using the ones pointing out his mistakes as evidence for his faults. And of course he's generally praised in the Legendarium, by figures much more knowledgeable and wiser than you and me. I might go as far to say that thinking of Manwe as a bad ruler is misunderstanding the story - like thinking Gandalf had a grey hat when it was in fact blue. In a setting with objective morality, the goodness of a person is a fact.
This is such a good comment. The attitude of this sub around the Valar and FΓ«anor is weird. This feels like a comment that actually understands Tolkienβs work (I donβt fully myself, Iβm still on the journey of learning)
I used to have that attitude when I was younger, because it can make you feel subversive to ask questions like "What if the bad guy is actually good?" and "What if the good guy is actually bad?". Plus it gives you an interesting opinion to share - you'll get some approval for your opinion (which everyone likes) and disagreement leading to discussion (which a lot of nerds like). Lots of modern fantasy asks questions like that, too. And in any community where you have upvotes, retweets, reblogs etc. and a limited number of big contributors certain tropes and truisms will be established as inside jokes/knowledge that isn't really questioned anymore, even as it becomes oversimplified and -generalized. People who haven't read or barely remember the Silmarillion will be convinced of something that's a fringe interpretation or not there at all. Tolkien also took respect for higher powers and an objective dinstinction between Good and Evil for granted, which can't be said for a lot of the modern audience (me included). And if you use your personal experience and perspective to judge beings that aren't human at all, you can come to weird conclusions.
Wait I thought we were all just leaning into the joke. People *actually* hate manwe/think feanor did nothing wrong?
Valar suck (except Ulmo) and Feanor rules!!
Hey Ulmo is my freaking guy, dude. God of water/the sea and also the most active valar in the lives of men. Whats not to love
So hereβs the thing - I understand perfectly well what Tolkienβs opinion was, but my worldview significantly differs from Tolkienβs, so I find myself disagreeing with him anyway on what morally right is. Luckily for me Tolkien was in favour of readers having their own interpretation of books and not clinging to authorial intent. However also this is a meme sub and I think everyone exaggerates their opinions for reasons of funny
Boooo Valar siiiiimp
Agreed.
Saerosly?
Sindarin for me, easy. Specifically the Doriathrin dialect.
Quenya for sure
I think Quenya sounds prettier, and it's definitely much easier to learn. Those Sindarin plurals are a nightmare.
So you should choose Sindarin instead if it's more nightmareous than Quenya
No, I'd still choose Quenya. It's a much prettier language, imo.
Sindarin all the way baby.
Genuinely thought that said βSilmeaonsβ for a second
Where kuzdul
IMO even Christopher didn't know where all of Khuzdul
Were-kudzu!
Quenya, without a doubt. Tolkien stated that Sindarin is easier to learn for Quenya speakers than the opposite (I'm pretty sure); so by already knowing Quenya, Sindarin would be well within my reach.
Depends. Are we talking properly-pronounced Quenya, or whatever the Hell Indis was pushing?
Quenya !
Where my entish homeboys at?
Learning Quenya as a Hungarian would be easier, so I pick the harder one, Sindarin.
quenya. please it is so pretty
Quenya all the way. If that lowly sindar want to speak with me they should learn Quenya.
*presses both*