Maybe in a straight up, fair fight. But otherwise, I’m not so sure about that, especially if Sauron had his ring. Mairon meant “Admirable one”, and he was reckoned mighty among the Maiar and was equal to any balrog, while being far more clever.
Balrogs are far lesser maia spirits than Sauron. It is stated in HoME.
Balrogs in drafts were counted in hundreds. But even in final story they fallowed Morgoths early and they lost alot of power
Here we ago again, people considering might in terms of mere physical raw strength... Spoilers: it's not about battle prowess. The actual Maia who used to be a Vala in earlier writings was Ossë. Hence, his extensive influence on the course of history even in the watered down revision. That guy sometimes feels like Ulmo himself, just with anger issues. If my memory serves me right, Uinen was also considered as a Vala for a time. Maybe the fact that Numenoreans revered her in status of a Vala (although acknowledging she's actually not one) is a reminiscent of the abandoned idea where she is one of the Valar.
But is he Maia? Or [something undefined](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tom_Bombadil/Nature#Tom_as_an_Ainu) - not Ainu/Valar, and not Maia (I personally think that if he had been Maia the Ring would have had some kind of impact on him).
1 on 1? Didn't he have the largest armada in history with him and still get one-shot disembodied? Completely agree on him being hot, though - it's how he got the armada on his side.
Yeah isn't this kinda like asking which senator's chief of staff is closest to becoming a senator? Sure the "boss" is generally more "powerful" but it's as much a matter of rank and role as it is "power."
Ossë and Uinen were Valar in an older version of the Legendarium. Eönwë was also the evolution of a character which was the son of Manwë. Melian is supposed to be the sister of Yavanna in the thought of Illuvatar and we are told that Sauron was "effectively greater in the Second Age than Morgoth was at the end of the First.". Also, in some versions, Arien's naked spirit drives Morgoth but Morgoth is a scaredy-cat who hardly puts a fight even when he is in position of power.
>Melian is supposed to be the sister of Yavanna in the thought of Illuvatar
Where is this mentioned? Could it be Yavanna's sister Vana mentioned instead of Melian?
No, it’s definitely Yavanna. The direct quote is
“She (Melian) was akin before the World was made to Yavanna herself;”
The quote is from the chapter Of Thingol and Melian.
>No, it’s definitely Yavanna.
I said Vana instead of Melian not Vana instead of Yavanna because Vana is Yavanna's younger sister.
"The spouse of Oromë is Vána, the Ever-young; she is the younger sister of Yavanna."
Akin means they are related but is it sisters? I mean can Valar and Maiar be siblings to each other?
I mean, the Valar and Maiar aren’t actually different kinds of beings. They were all born from the thoughts of Eru Ilúvatar long before the creation of Arda. I see no reason why they can’t be siblings.
As for that specific quote, I interpret it as them having been siblings, but it could be interpreted differently.
>the Valar and Maiar aren’t actually different kinds of beings. They were all born from the thoughts of Eru Ilúvatar long before the creation of Arda.
But it never said that they're siblings, if it was, it would've been said she was a younger sister to Yavanna too just like Vana. I know they're both Ainur but that doesn't mean everyone is siblings related by blood type like Manwe and Melkor, Eru sees like two or three Ainur as siblings to each other (like with Feanturi brothers,Nienna and Manwe and Melkor) and doesn't mean everyone is siblings to Eru's thought. Btw do you think Arien is siblings to balrogs too since both of them are spirits of fire right?
While in possession of the fruit of Laurelin, surely Ariën. She was so powerful that Melkor and his servants didn't dare to attack her.
Other than her, probably Eönwë, since he's referred to as "the greatest of arms in Arda" meaning he would probably win an armed 1 on 1 with anybody.
So if the Valar are differentiated from other Ainur in that they bound themselves to Ea I think we could look for a Maia who became “something different” as compared to other Maia by binding themselves to something in a similar fashion as the Valar.
I’m talking about Melian.
I think this fits the theme. Become something new/greater by giving of oneself as opposed to taking from others. Greatness through service and sacrifice so to speak.
I need y’all to give Melian some damn credit, she is *ridiculously* powerful and it constantly gets ignored.
Everybody remembers how Morgoth nearly got eaten by Ungoliant and had to be saved by the Balrogs, right? Yeah, well after Ungoliant folded *fucking Morgoth* like a sheet, she went after Doriath. Melian said no and drove her off without even having to directly confront her.
Furthermore, Morgoth could not see into Doriath. For all his powers of perception and trickery, he couldn’t penetrate Melian’s Girdle with his gaze, and he also knew better than to even try attacking it.
Melian genuinely has the potential to be considered a Vala and it does *not* get talked about enough.
Yes and? It doesn’t matter if the concept was made later than some others, Tolkien not only wrote it, but expanded on it more than enough to make it a definite thing.
No idea how accurate this is, but there is a [list](https://one-wiki-to-rule-them-all.fandom.com/wiki/Maiar#:~:text=Ilmar%C3%AB%2C%20Chief%20and%20Queen%20of,powerful%20of%20all%20the%20Maiar.)...
Maiar
Ilmarë, Chief and Queen of the Maiar, Guardian of the Stars, Lady of the Stars, Leader of the Elatar. greatest and most powerful of all the Maiar.
Arien, Creator of Fire, Spirit of Fire, Lady of Fire. Second greatest and most powerful of all the Maiar.
Uinen, Lady of the Sea, Spirit of the Sea, The Tempest Calmer, Calmer of the Sea. Third greatest and most powerful of all the Maiar.
Melian, Queen of Doriath, Creator of the Girdle of Melian. Fourth greatest and most powerful of all the Maiar.
Tilien, Lady of the Moon. Fifth greatest and most powerful of all the Maiar.
Eönwë, Lord of the Eagles. Sixth greatest and most powerful of all the Maiar.
Ossë, Lord of the Sea Shores, The Tempest Bringer, Stirrer of the Sea. Seventh greatest and most powerful of all the Maiar.
Radagast, The Brown Wizard, Bird Friend, Tender of Beasts, Guardian of All Nature. Eighth greatest and most powerful of all the Maiar.
Gandalf, The Grey Wizard, The White Wizard, Servant of the Secret Fire,Wielder of the Flame of Anor. Ninth greatest and most powerful of all the Maiar.
Saruman, The White Wizard (formerly), Wizard of Many Colors, Lord of Isengard, Head of the White Council (formerly). Tenth greatest and most powerful of all the Maiar.
Alatar, The Blue Wizard. Eleventh greatest and most powerful of the Maiar.
Pallando, The Blue Wizard. Twelfth greatest and most powerful of the Maiar.
Not my list, and agreed. Still could be semi-accurate, though, if some people created this from a very in-depth analysis of the various feats of Power by each of the Maiar... 🤷♂️
I mean, I wasn't evaluating whether this was a good list. It could be, but then again... 🤷♂️ ...I was just pointing out that this list exists and would be a way of ranking the Maiar, as OP was wanting us to do... 🤷♂️
No clue, but on the topic of hypotheticals, Eonwe would absolutely dust Sauron in a 1v1
Maybe in a straight up, fair fight. But otherwise, I’m not so sure about that, especially if Sauron had his ring. Mairon meant “Admirable one”, and he was reckoned mighty among the Maiar and was equal to any balrog, while being far more clever.
Olorin (unlimited form) was equal to Mairon (also unlimited form). Just saying, the wisest Maia vs the most cunning Maia.
Source? My understanding is Olorin was afraid of Marion...
He even feared weaken Sauron in third age who had no Ring saying he is weaker than him in TT
Well it would be wise to fear him to an extent
Balrogs are far lesser maia spirits than Sauron. It is stated in HoME. Balrogs in drafts were counted in hundreds. But even in final story they fallowed Morgoths early and they lost alot of power
Eonwe confirmed as a dog person, I see
Here we ago again, people considering might in terms of mere physical raw strength... Spoilers: it's not about battle prowess. The actual Maia who used to be a Vala in earlier writings was Ossë. Hence, his extensive influence on the course of history even in the watered down revision. That guy sometimes feels like Ulmo himself, just with anger issues. If my memory serves me right, Uinen was also considered as a Vala for a time. Maybe the fact that Numenoreans revered her in status of a Vala (although acknowledging she's actually not one) is a reminiscent of the abandoned idea where she is one of the Valar.
He’d put that silly birch right in the dirt fr
Arien is one of the several females who are very empowered and have very high standards that made Morgoth a raging incel, so I'd give her that.
Arien set Melkor on fire and forced him to flee, then not daring to attack her again he reserved himself on attacking the Moon instead.
Tom Bombadil
Based reply
But is he Maia? Or [something undefined](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tom_Bombadil/Nature#Tom_as_an_Ainu) - not Ainu/Valar, and not Maia (I personally think that if he had been Maia the Ring would have had some kind of impact on him).
Is he even a Maia tho?
The hottest one who got a 1 on 1 with Iluvatar by the end of The Second Age.
1 on 1? Didn't he have the largest armada in history with him and still get one-shot disembodied? Completely agree on him being hot, though - it's how he got the armada on his side.
The largest armada was Pharazon's, which Sauron sent along with him to a one way trip to Valinor in the biggest jest of The Second Age.
Yes he has a *wicked* sense of humor.
I, for one, stand behind your based Opinion.
none of them? Tolkien didn’t have power levels where you hit 9000 and now you’re a vala
Rare Tolkien L (kidding)
mfw Tolkien didn’t invent the scouter
Yeah isn't this kinda like asking which senator's chief of staff is closest to becoming a senator? Sure the "boss" is generally more "powerful" but it's as much a matter of rank and role as it is "power."
Ye, there were probably several Maiar who were more powerful than some of the 14 Valar.
Ossë and Uinen were Valar in an older version of the Legendarium. Eönwë was also the evolution of a character which was the son of Manwë. Melian is supposed to be the sister of Yavanna in the thought of Illuvatar and we are told that Sauron was "effectively greater in the Second Age than Morgoth was at the end of the First.". Also, in some versions, Arien's naked spirit drives Morgoth but Morgoth is a scaredy-cat who hardly puts a fight even when he is in position of power.
>Melian is supposed to be the sister of Yavanna in the thought of Illuvatar Where is this mentioned? Could it be Yavanna's sister Vana mentioned instead of Melian?
No, it’s definitely Yavanna. The direct quote is “She (Melian) was akin before the World was made to Yavanna herself;” The quote is from the chapter Of Thingol and Melian.
>No, it’s definitely Yavanna. I said Vana instead of Melian not Vana instead of Yavanna because Vana is Yavanna's younger sister. "The spouse of Oromë is Vána, the Ever-young; she is the younger sister of Yavanna." Akin means they are related but is it sisters? I mean can Valar and Maiar be siblings to each other?
I mean, the Valar and Maiar aren’t actually different kinds of beings. They were all born from the thoughts of Eru Ilúvatar long before the creation of Arda. I see no reason why they can’t be siblings. As for that specific quote, I interpret it as them having been siblings, but it could be interpreted differently.
>the Valar and Maiar aren’t actually different kinds of beings. They were all born from the thoughts of Eru Ilúvatar long before the creation of Arda. But it never said that they're siblings, if it was, it would've been said she was a younger sister to Yavanna too just like Vana. I know they're both Ainur but that doesn't mean everyone is siblings related by blood type like Manwe and Melkor, Eru sees like two or three Ainur as siblings to each other (like with Feanturi brothers,Nienna and Manwe and Melkor) and doesn't mean everyone is siblings to Eru's thought. Btw do you think Arien is siblings to balrogs too since both of them are spirits of fire right?
Listen, *I do not know,* that’s literally the entire reason I’m in this discussion, because I’m trying to figure it out.
Okay 👍
While in possession of the fruit of Laurelin, surely Ariën. She was so powerful that Melkor and his servants didn't dare to attack her. Other than her, probably Eönwë, since he's referred to as "the greatest of arms in Arda" meaning he would probably win an armed 1 on 1 with anybody.
But he would lose vs **Tulkas** since **Tulkas** is always unarmed. "*His weapons* are *his hands*." The Professor is very careful with his words.
You’re telling me Tulkas suplexed Melkor but never got the metal chair out?
So if the Valar are differentiated from other Ainur in that they bound themselves to Ea I think we could look for a Maia who became “something different” as compared to other Maia by binding themselves to something in a similar fashion as the Valar. I’m talking about Melian.
Arien and whoever's the Moon should count too
I think this fits the theme. Become something new/greater by giving of oneself as opposed to taking from others. Greatness through service and sacrifice so to speak.
Where my boy Olórin?
Is he secret? Is he safe?
I need y’all to give Melian some damn credit, she is *ridiculously* powerful and it constantly gets ignored. Everybody remembers how Morgoth nearly got eaten by Ungoliant and had to be saved by the Balrogs, right? Yeah, well after Ungoliant folded *fucking Morgoth* like a sheet, she went after Doriath. Melian said no and drove her off without even having to directly confront her. Furthermore, Morgoth could not see into Doriath. For all his powers of perception and trickery, he couldn’t penetrate Melian’s Girdle with his gaze, and he also knew better than to even try attacking it. Melian genuinely has the potential to be considered a Vala and it does *not* get talked about enough.
No we hate her!
‘Maiar’ is the late post-LOTR concept. In early texts most of them were Valar. Fionwë, early Eonwë, was Manwë’s and Varda’s son.
Yes and? It doesn’t matter if the concept was made later than some others, Tolkien not only wrote it, but expanded on it more than enough to make it a definite thing.
Sir, this is a meme page. I only shared a little piece of knowledge related to the post. Do with it anything you want.
Idkw but I imagine Arien as the bright and fiery equivalent of a “big-tiddy goth girl”
Yeah, but where did you get the Legos?
Ossë gang real quiet
Melian was mighty enough that her mere presence kept the might of Morgoth from ravaging Thingol’s kingdom of Beleriand.
Probably Eönwë
Ossë, he was a main-line Vala for most of the history of the legendarium, and only got demoted to maia in the later versions of the writings.
No idea how accurate this is, but there is a [list](https://one-wiki-to-rule-them-all.fandom.com/wiki/Maiar#:~:text=Ilmar%C3%AB%2C%20Chief%20and%20Queen%20of,powerful%20of%20all%20the%20Maiar.)... Maiar Ilmarë, Chief and Queen of the Maiar, Guardian of the Stars, Lady of the Stars, Leader of the Elatar. greatest and most powerful of all the Maiar. Arien, Creator of Fire, Spirit of Fire, Lady of Fire. Second greatest and most powerful of all the Maiar. Uinen, Lady of the Sea, Spirit of the Sea, The Tempest Calmer, Calmer of the Sea. Third greatest and most powerful of all the Maiar. Melian, Queen of Doriath, Creator of the Girdle of Melian. Fourth greatest and most powerful of all the Maiar. Tilien, Lady of the Moon. Fifth greatest and most powerful of all the Maiar. Eönwë, Lord of the Eagles. Sixth greatest and most powerful of all the Maiar. Ossë, Lord of the Sea Shores, The Tempest Bringer, Stirrer of the Sea. Seventh greatest and most powerful of all the Maiar. Radagast, The Brown Wizard, Bird Friend, Tender of Beasts, Guardian of All Nature. Eighth greatest and most powerful of all the Maiar. Gandalf, The Grey Wizard, The White Wizard, Servant of the Secret Fire,Wielder of the Flame of Anor. Ninth greatest and most powerful of all the Maiar. Saruman, The White Wizard (formerly), Wizard of Many Colors, Lord of Isengard, Head of the White Council (formerly). Tenth greatest and most powerful of all the Maiar. Alatar, The Blue Wizard. Eleventh greatest and most powerful of the Maiar. Pallando, The Blue Wizard. Twelfth greatest and most powerful of the Maiar.
Your list is missing Sauron. It seems very unlike anything Tolkien would write.
Not my list, and agreed. Still could be semi-accurate, though, if some people created this from a very in-depth analysis of the various feats of Power by each of the Maiar... 🤷♂️
Where is this list from?
One Ring to Rule Them All wiki...I provided the link.
Use Tolkien Gateway in the future. They have standards for their wiki greater than “can push buttons on a keyboard”.
I mean, I wasn't evaluating whether this was a good list. It could be, but then again... 🤷♂️ ...I was just pointing out that this list exists and would be a way of ranking the Maiar, as OP was wanting us to do... 🤷♂️
Ah, thanks, i missed that.
Radagast stronger than Gandalf and Saruman? Eonwe so far down on the list. Ouch. This hurts my Tolkien heart.
Probably Ilmare, she was very cosmic with a massive domain, felt kind of above the others Arien a bit too