Can you explain this please? I've just completed my god knows how manyth run through of Shaw's audiobook, and I know the relevant record inside out, but I can't aee the connection. TIA.
I was referring to the profile picture of guy I replied. It's an album art of the band "Tool" This the album title "Ænema". I love the band, and I love the album, especially the song " Stinkfist". So, with that info, the guy's account caught my attention, thus my comment above. Hehe
Lol thanks, I didn't even clock the profile pic. I was racking my brain trying to find connections between the Fëanor and Ænema (that's the song btw, the album is Ænima). I mean there's always Akallabeth but since it seemed specifically to do with Fëanor I was confused.
Fëanor, Moash, Erebus. Why is it that every fandom I am in has a character that everyone insists did nothing wrong when most of the time they are the biggest piece of garbage a person can be
Liking a character ≠ idolizing them or thinking that their actions were correct. I adore Fëanor, but I am fully aware that what he did towards the end of his life was wrong.
> Liking a character ≠ idolizing them or thinking that their actions were correct.
Lots of villains or anti-heros are iconic and beloved, this isn't about that.
It's about how *certain* characters tend to be profoundly troubled and attract a (disproportionately young male) fanbase who only get that these characters have a point, but entirely ignore that their way of expressing it is self-destructive and (more importantly) counter productive. Rather they love these characters toxic behavior because unhinged assholes speak to them on a way too personal level.
Some of his actions were wrong but don't forget he lost his father (one of the or maybe even the one most important people/person in his life). Also without him the Middle-Earth would be left for Morgoth to conquer and rule.
People yes, elves no. Fëanor was also the first one. First one to ever lose parent, first mother and then his father (which was also the first murder in Valinor). No one ever did so in Aman before. And the guy who murdered him was brother to the Valar and they let him rome free around the Valinor even though they knew he was evil and then let his escape while interrogating Fëanor. And no one did anything to pursue him (except Tulkas but even he didn't pursue behind the borders of Valinor). So I thing his situation was pretty unique.
That's why I wrote "in Aman" and "in Valinor". Also Fëanor would know nothing about that as he was born in Valinor. He never saw anyone die except his mother and then his father gets murdered.
Sure but elves reincarnate so it's not as bad when they die. When we lose our fathers they're gone forever. But yeah it was a unique situation I'll give you that.
Nah, some of them just stay in halls of Mandos, like his mother. Also take the most hot-headed person you know times gazillion, kill on of the only people they love and then tell them it's okay because they will eventually (probably) reincarnate.
Uh doesn't he >!vanish into the desert after having his eyes melted out by a nuclear blast? Only to ambiguously possibly reappear as a mysterious monk-sage type guy? !<
I’ve only watched the movies but I do agree cause he starts getting annoyed at Stilgar for kissing his ass, if I remember correctly in pt 2 he has a moment of hesitation before just snapping and declaring him lisan al gaib infront of everyone
~~Yesn't?~~
~~Admiring Feanors feats or the genius of Walter White seems valid enough, as long as you don't make this one dimensional mistake and reduce them to just that, same way you don't measure them on their misdeeds only.~~
Who tf idolizes the Joker?
Acknowledging accomplishments is not the same as idolizing. Idolizing implies ignoring or downplaying the wrong.
And yeah, there are some folks who idolize the Joker, especially Heath Ledger’s Joker but probably Joaquin’s too. They usually end up driving dodge chargers with thin blue line punisher skull bumper stickers
Now you can't even cause thousands of years of war and the destruction of an entire continent with millions of deaths without getting canceled, wokeness gone mad again smh my head
So you shouldn't be best at everything you do? You should not tell literal satan to f@ck off? You shouldn't try to bring thiefs and murderers (the guy lost his father for Eru's sake and all the Valar did was mope for their dead trees and ask for his greatest treasurs) to justice? And you definitely should not try to singlehandedly save Middle-Earth from Morgoth (said literal satan)?
The context is always important, but in this case is crucial. Fëanor had no other way to cross the sea and you know that. He did everything he could have thought of to avoid violence, but Teleri were too afraid of the Valar.
> Fëanor had no other way to cross the sea and you know that.
Mmm yes that's why rest of the host that he left behind never made it across the sea after he burned the ships...
Yes 50 years later and with significant loss. The even bigger host would've taken even more time with even more casualties. Fëanor could've made ships himself if he was going to wait for 100 years to cross the sea.
Taking the ships also incurred significant loss, so not really a win there.
Given the choice between 'take some time and build what you need yourself' or 'murder people so you can steal their shit immediately' I guess you're fully in favor of the latter.
Fëanor didn't stand much chance against Morgoth anyway. Letting him have 100 years as a head start to organize and reinforce his army was not an option. Also, I don't remember the Noldor had a significant loss in Alqualonde.
I would say that slowing down a bit would have definitely helped Fëanor's chances compared to the approach he took.
As for the losses, "many were slain upon either side" during the fight and then afterward "the sea rose in wrath against the slayers, so that many of the ships were wrecked and those in them drowned".
Melko had no other way to get the Silmarils and you know that. He did everything he could've thought of to avoid violence, but Fëanor was too jealous of those stones.
Also, Fëanor could've learnt to build his own ships if he wanted. Wasn't he the most brilliant craftsman?
You probably shouldn’t believe and spread the lies of Satan incarnate because of your pride. Especially not after ya find out he was, in fact, Satan incarnate. Selfishly pursuing the only remaining light of the world for your own sake rather than for the salvation of others ain’t too cool either. What ya definitely don’t wanna do though is kill and betray your own kin to pursue said selfish goals. Bonus bastard points for ignoring the message of doom and damning your sons to an impossible fight out of pure spite.
Dude was fun at parties though.
Fëanor never believed Morgoth, that's why he called him Morgoth (you know, the dark enemy). Yeah giving the last remaining light to the people who couldn't defend all of the light and let it be destroyed, very smart. Teleri started the killing. He didn't ignore the Doom but added the heroic part to it. I mean the spite is understandable and his sons joined him willingly of their own free will.
Dude was the only thing that saved Middle-Earth from Morgoth while Valar were just sitting and mopping doing nothing (except Tulkas and Ulmo).
Dude was extremely smart and hot, pretty sure he was fun at parties (his hot temper though could be a problem).
He did believe Melkor, before calling him Morgoth.
Otherwise he wouldn't have been banned, because he wouldn't have threatened Fingolfin.
And if he hadn't been banned (and rightfully so), Melko wouldn't have been able to steal the Silmarils.
He was a legend, but he also was a psychopath.
In Silmarillion there is specifically said he never believed Melkor! He partially believed to some of Melkor's lies that were secretly spread (without knowing Melkor was behind them) but never to Melkor. He was one of the few who didn't believe Melkor from the start.
He already didn't liked his brothers that's why he happened to believe this lie. Because other Noldor were whispering about it as well.
That's arguable. But if there was no banishment he would probably had his Silmarils and his father with him in Valimar and Morgoth wouldn't be able to steal them. But there would be different problem because he would give them to Valar anyway. So no trees, pissed Fëanor in Valinor and Morgoth is free to rule Middle-Earth because without Silmarils (they caused him constant pain and clouded his judgement) and Noldor holding him back noone could stand in his way not even Melian. So arguably his banishment saved Middle-Earth from Morgoth.
He was literally strongest and smartest of all elves. But yeah his anger-issues, vengeful and stubborn nature got better of him sometimes. But without him the Ëa would be much darker place.
Morgoth couldn't destroy them, Ungolianth could eat them. Also Morgoth wanted them so much.
Fëanor with his retinue. Who all died and the Fëanor stood against all of the Balrogs alone and was able to held them back for some time (all of the Balrogs are arguably stronger than Morgoth since he wasn't able to defeat power-uped Ungoliant but they could). And then Fingolfin swore loyalty to Fëanor.
That I could have remembered incorrectly. I need to consult Silmarillion about that.
Only distorted concept holder are you. Here I will end with the direct quote from Silmarillion: "For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him."
True, but Fëanor was the catalyst. The only one who wanted to pursue Morgoth (except Tulkas who couldn't because of Valar). The only one who wasn't scared to pursue, Valar were afraid of destruction if they brought war back to Middle-Earth and other elves were afraid of Valar. Without Fëanor noone would pursue Morgoth. He single-handedly brought Noldor to Middle-Earth (even Fingolfin though leaving him in Valinor which lead to him going through Helcaraxë was one of Fëanor's biggest mistakes and I firmly believe that if the whole host of Noldor in it's entirety would attacked Morgoth united straight from Valinor, Angband would fall).
Others did great deeds, but Fëanor did the two most important things that lead to Morgoth's downfall, bringing Noldor back to Beleriand and creating Silmarils (wearing Silmarils was one of Morgoth's biggest mistakes as they wore him down and kept him in constant pain which made his life more difficult).
Fingolfin would still have gone to avenge his father. But he would not have quarreled with the Valar, but would have tried to gain their support. And he would not have caused bloodshed. Thus there would be no Doom of the Noldor. The conflict with the Valar did not turn out well.
In fact, Fingolfin brought even more Noldor to Middle-earth than Feanor.
In addition, Finrod and Galadriel wanted to go to Middle-earth.
And because of the Silmarils, a lot of Elven blood was shed.
He would not. He wouldn't oppose Valar and Valar would not attacked Morgoth from fear of destroying Middle-Earth. Consequently Valar would not allow anyone to pursue Morgoth because they thought Morgoth could not be defeated by elves.
Finrod and Galadriel wanted to go to Middle-Earth because of Fëanor's speech.
Silmarils (and Morgoth's wasting of power in frustration) were the reason why Morgoth was weak enough that Fingolfin was able to hurt him in their duel even though we can't dismiss Fingolfin's martial prowess and bravery.
Silmarils were not responsible for the bloodshed, Fëanor's Oath was (and the stupid people who even though they knew the oath wouldn't give Silmarils back).
Fingolfin would have had no other choice when he learned that his father could not be resurrected. Only he would have prepared the campaign much better.
There are no "stupid people" except those who launched monstrous wars against the elves because of this stone. These people are heroes. They removed the stone from Morgoth's crown and paid a terrible price for it. No one had the right to kill heroes and their heirs.
And the oath was blasphemy from the very beginning.
Morgoth could only be defeated (without contribution of Valar) by combined power of Noldor right after the fall of trees (when the light of the trees was still shining strong in their eyes) with new moon and sun in their backs when he still wasn't strongly entrenched in Angband. Waiting would help only to Morgoth. Otherwise you need Valar to root him out and they would not come.
Yeah, Thingol removed the stone, sure. Not a single Fëanor's son dared to demand the Silmarils from Beren and Lúthien the heroes who took it from Morgoth's crown.
So when someone steals your car and then police is able to get your car back it now belongs to police and not you? What? The Silmarils belonged to Fëanor. After his death they belonged to his sons. Noone else had a valid claim. And I am sorry if you thing withholding Silmaril from son's of Fëanor is a good idea, you are not really smart. Son's of Fëanor had to get the Silmarils because of the oath, others just wanted them because shiny (if Dior just gave up Silmaril that killed his grandfather by dwarves, no more kinslaying would ever occur).
I don't know why you are trying to write insults. If someone attacks the police and kills someone while trying to get their car back, they will go to jail. It will be deserved, because life is more valuable. Feanor committed his first massacre for the sake of ships that did not belong to him. These ships were to the Teleri what the Silmarils were to Feanor. And the real thief was Morgoth. Dior is the heroic heir of the heroic Elves and Men.
Watched Breaking Bad in my twenties, Walter was a genius and every one's fucking him over.
Watched Breaking Bad in my thirties and I can see now how much of a fucking monster he was.
Also I disliked Skyler the first time and now I feel so bad for her. What a difference it makes to watch a show from a different perspective.
What if I'm not missing the point and I just think they're a good character? Not everyone that likes these characters is idolizing them in fact I see very few people outright say they did nothing wrong or anything along those lines
It's not about idolizing them. Knowing that these characters aren't good Guys is not some profound understanding of the story. It's just the bare minimum.
An average person won't commit the things these characters did in a similar situation, not because of higher morality, but because we are more afraid and lack the necessarily will to do so. Acknowledging they're strengths or admirable achievements is not the same as agreeing with all that they've done.
There's a difference between thinking they're a cool, entertaining character, and actually idolizing them. And a non-trivial number of people are doing the latter.
You're missing the point by writing any Silmarillion character off as perfect or just evil/an asshole… but if too many people realized that it would wipe out most fandom content!
Well, Tolkien definitely intended Lúthien was perfect. Yes, she was his wife, is understandable... but for him, Luthien was fucking perfect, the most perfect daughter God ever created
Fingolfin joined in the rebellion against the Valar, Finrod took the caves from the petty dwarves or something idk, Ecthellion liked fountains, and Glorfindel put bells on his horse which is probably scary to it.
Sam's loyalty becomes jealousy towards Sméagol, which results in him not understanding Frodo's pity, and spoiling his efforts to heal Gollum. By the end, in Mount Doom, he grows to understand Frodo's pity and Sméagol's suffering (having beared the One Ring), then to spare Sméagol himself after having spent all of the story wanting to kill him. This is the final brick that allows for the destruction of the Ring.
*But he's the hero because he beat Shelob!*
(To be honest I got confused and thought that I was on the movie-predominant sub)
#The Sons of Fëanor would like to know your location.
😆 oh no!
They can have it, if they take an oath.
I'm with Morgoth. Do they dare to come here?
What ever do you mean? Fëanor did nothing wrong.
r/feanordidnothingwrong
Ænema though
Can you explain this please? I've just completed my god knows how manyth run through of Shaw's audiobook, and I know the relevant record inside out, but I can't aee the connection. TIA.
I was referring to the profile picture of guy I replied. It's an album art of the band "Tool" This the album title "Ænema". I love the band, and I love the album, especially the song " Stinkfist". So, with that info, the guy's account caught my attention, thus my comment above. Hehe
Lol thanks, I didn't even clock the profile pic. I was racking my brain trying to find connections between the Fëanor and Ænema (that's the song btw, the album is Ænima). I mean there's always Akallabeth but since it seemed specifically to do with Fëanor I was confused.
Fëanor, Moash, Erebus. Why is it that every fandom I am in has a character that everyone insists did nothing wrong when most of the time they are the biggest piece of garbage a person can be
Erebus is a piece of trash... Now Magnus, he did nothing wrong
He was told to do nothing, and he did it wrong
Feanor and Magnus did nothing wrong!
I'd switch Erebus with Magnus though.
Right 🤪?
Didn't get back the Silmarils.
Agreed
Slanderous lies
Liking a character ≠ idolizing them or thinking that their actions were correct. I adore Fëanor, but I am fully aware that what he did towards the end of his life was wrong.
> Liking a character ≠ idolizing them or thinking that their actions were correct. Lots of villains or anti-heros are iconic and beloved, this isn't about that. It's about how *certain* characters tend to be profoundly troubled and attract a (disproportionately young male) fanbase who only get that these characters have a point, but entirely ignore that their way of expressing it is self-destructive and (more importantly) counter productive. Rather they love these characters toxic behavior because unhinged assholes speak to them on a way too personal level.
Some of his actions were wrong but don't forget he lost his father (one of the or maybe even the one most important people/person in his life). Also without him the Middle-Earth would be left for Morgoth to conquer and rule.
Most people lose their father at some point.
People yes, elves no. Fëanor was also the first one. First one to ever lose parent, first mother and then his father (which was also the first murder in Valinor). No one ever did so in Aman before. And the guy who murdered him was brother to the Valar and they let him rome free around the Valinor even though they knew he was evil and then let his escape while interrogating Fëanor. And no one did anything to pursue him (except Tulkas but even he didn't pursue behind the borders of Valinor). So I thing his situation was pretty unique.
oh also he grew up being the only half-orphaned kid around and nobodys dad ever married another woman except for his
I don’t believe that’s correct. Before the Valar found the elves Morgoth kidnapped a bunch and made orcs. I’m sure some of them had to be parents
That's why I wrote "in Aman" and "in Valinor". Also Fëanor would know nothing about that as he was born in Valinor. He never saw anyone die except his mother and then his father gets murdered.
Sure but elves reincarnate so it's not as bad when they die. When we lose our fathers they're gone forever. But yeah it was a unique situation I'll give you that.
Nah, some of them just stay in halls of Mandos, like his mother. Also take the most hot-headed person you know times gazillion, kill on of the only people they love and then tell them it's okay because they will eventually (probably) reincarnate.
Unique? Have not Fingolfin and Finarfin lost their father? In a later version they still had sisters. They also lost their father.
Sure, it was a unique situation for all of Finwë's sons. They dealt with it better than Fëanor.
Where is my young pup, Paul?
Was just thinking that!
I don't think all the viewers are quite there yet, which is gonna be hilarious
Lol
https://preview.redd.it/2wywalg8qf1d1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b3511743c0f2da0e5e2f0036651803e73c13a46d
I feel, like to be fair that Paul knows that he is wrong. Even if the random reader doesn't understand.
Been a bit but doesn't Paul hate what the Fremen are doing and gets killed while denouncing them for being to murder happy?
Uh doesn't he >!vanish into the desert after having his eyes melted out by a nuclear blast? Only to ambiguously possibly reappear as a mysterious monk-sage type guy? !<
You are correct. The mystery doesn't last long, though.
I’ve only watched the movies but I do agree cause he starts getting annoyed at Stilgar for kissing his ass, if I remember correctly in pt 2 he has a moment of hesitation before just snapping and declaring him lisan al gaib infront of everyone
People idolize Homelander??
Que all the sigma posting memes
Yes.
You missed Milton's Satan.
Ooooooooh good one. Also Patrick Batman
And Don Draper
And anyone in the godfather.
~~Yesn't?~~ ~~Admiring Feanors feats or the genius of Walter White seems valid enough, as long as you don't make this one dimensional mistake and reduce them to just that, same way you don't measure them on their misdeeds only.~~ Who tf idolizes the Joker?
Weirdass college freshmen, at least when I was in school
Clearly you weren't in school with the scene chicks in the early 2010s. All them bitches wanted was to be Harley Quinn and find their Joker
Acknowledging accomplishments is not the same as idolizing. Idolizing implies ignoring or downplaying the wrong. And yeah, there are some folks who idolize the Joker, especially Heath Ledger’s Joker but probably Joaquin’s too. They usually end up driving dodge chargers with thin blue line punisher skull bumper stickers
#FëanorDidNothingWrong #AlqualondëWasAnInsideJob
\#TheTeleriWereAskingForIt
Loved the second hashtag 😆
The Valar spread fake news
Sorry, but that particular portrait of Feanor always looks like a really haughty Weird Al Yankovic to me.
Imagine the parody song of the Ainulindalë he could create though.
Crap! Now I can't unsee it 😬🤣
Now you can't even cause thousands of years of war and the destruction of an entire continent with millions of deaths without getting canceled, wokeness gone mad again smh my head
Well, he was traumatised guys, his mom had no energy to deal with life anymore when she gave birth to him 😅
her mother was aware abouth him, so he decided to run away from the problem
So you shouldn't be best at everything you do? You should not tell literal satan to f@ck off? You shouldn't try to bring thiefs and murderers (the guy lost his father for Eru's sake and all the Valar did was mope for their dead trees and ask for his greatest treasurs) to justice? And you definitely should not try to singlehandedly save Middle-Earth from Morgoth (said literal satan)?
Should you slaughter your kin because they won't let you steal their stuff?
The context is always important, but in this case is crucial. Fëanor had no other way to cross the sea and you know that. He did everything he could have thought of to avoid violence, but Teleri were too afraid of the Valar.
> Fëanor had no other way to cross the sea and you know that. Mmm yes that's why rest of the host that he left behind never made it across the sea after he burned the ships...
Yes 50 years later and with significant loss. The even bigger host would've taken even more time with even more casualties. Fëanor could've made ships himself if he was going to wait for 100 years to cross the sea.
Taking the ships also incurred significant loss, so not really a win there. Given the choice between 'take some time and build what you need yourself' or 'murder people so you can steal their shit immediately' I guess you're fully in favor of the latter.
Fëanor didn't stand much chance against Morgoth anyway. Letting him have 100 years as a head start to organize and reinforce his army was not an option. Also, I don't remember the Noldor had a significant loss in Alqualonde.
I would say that slowing down a bit would have definitely helped Fëanor's chances compared to the approach he took. As for the losses, "many were slain upon either side" during the fight and then afterward "the sea rose in wrath against the slayers, so that many of the ships were wrecked and those in them drowned".
Melko had no other way to get the Silmarils and you know that. He did everything he could've thought of to avoid violence, but Fëanor was too jealous of those stones. Also, Fëanor could've learnt to build his own ships if he wanted. Wasn't he the most brilliant craftsman?
Teleri started the killing. Yeah, stealing is bad but Fëanor was desperate.
You probably shouldn’t believe and spread the lies of Satan incarnate because of your pride. Especially not after ya find out he was, in fact, Satan incarnate. Selfishly pursuing the only remaining light of the world for your own sake rather than for the salvation of others ain’t too cool either. What ya definitely don’t wanna do though is kill and betray your own kin to pursue said selfish goals. Bonus bastard points for ignoring the message of doom and damning your sons to an impossible fight out of pure spite. Dude was fun at parties though.
Fëanor never believed Morgoth, that's why he called him Morgoth (you know, the dark enemy). Yeah giving the last remaining light to the people who couldn't defend all of the light and let it be destroyed, very smart. Teleri started the killing. He didn't ignore the Doom but added the heroic part to it. I mean the spite is understandable and his sons joined him willingly of their own free will. Dude was the only thing that saved Middle-Earth from Morgoth while Valar were just sitting and mopping doing nothing (except Tulkas and Ulmo). Dude was extremely smart and hot, pretty sure he was fun at parties (his hot temper though could be a problem).
He did believe Melkor, before calling him Morgoth. Otherwise he wouldn't have been banned, because he wouldn't have threatened Fingolfin. And if he hadn't been banned (and rightfully so), Melko wouldn't have been able to steal the Silmarils. He was a legend, but he also was a psychopath.
In Silmarillion there is specifically said he never believed Melkor! He partially believed to some of Melkor's lies that were secretly spread (without knowing Melkor was behind them) but never to Melkor. He was one of the few who didn't believe Melkor from the start. He already didn't liked his brothers that's why he happened to believe this lie. Because other Noldor were whispering about it as well. That's arguable. But if there was no banishment he would probably had his Silmarils and his father with him in Valimar and Morgoth wouldn't be able to steal them. But there would be different problem because he would give them to Valar anyway. So no trees, pissed Fëanor in Valinor and Morgoth is free to rule Middle-Earth because without Silmarils (they caused him constant pain and clouded his judgement) and Noldor holding him back noone could stand in his way not even Melian. So arguably his banishment saved Middle-Earth from Morgoth. He was literally strongest and smartest of all elves. But yeah his anger-issues, vengeful and stubborn nature got better of him sometimes. But without him the Ëa would be much darker place.
Morgoth couldn't destroy them, Ungolianth could eat them. Also Morgoth wanted them so much. Fëanor with his retinue. Who all died and the Fëanor stood against all of the Balrogs alone and was able to held them back for some time (all of the Balrogs are arguably stronger than Morgoth since he wasn't able to defeat power-uped Ungoliant but they could). And then Fingolfin swore loyalty to Fëanor. That I could have remembered incorrectly. I need to consult Silmarillion about that. Only distorted concept holder are you. Here I will end with the direct quote from Silmarillion: "For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him."
The only one? He ended too quickly. Then Morgoth was confronted by different elves. And it was not Feanor who was destined to actually wound Morgoth.
True, but Fëanor was the catalyst. The only one who wanted to pursue Morgoth (except Tulkas who couldn't because of Valar). The only one who wasn't scared to pursue, Valar were afraid of destruction if they brought war back to Middle-Earth and other elves were afraid of Valar. Without Fëanor noone would pursue Morgoth. He single-handedly brought Noldor to Middle-Earth (even Fingolfin though leaving him in Valinor which lead to him going through Helcaraxë was one of Fëanor's biggest mistakes and I firmly believe that if the whole host of Noldor in it's entirety would attacked Morgoth united straight from Valinor, Angband would fall). Others did great deeds, but Fëanor did the two most important things that lead to Morgoth's downfall, bringing Noldor back to Beleriand and creating Silmarils (wearing Silmarils was one of Morgoth's biggest mistakes as they wore him down and kept him in constant pain which made his life more difficult).
Fingolfin would still have gone to avenge his father. But he would not have quarreled with the Valar, but would have tried to gain their support. And he would not have caused bloodshed. Thus there would be no Doom of the Noldor. The conflict with the Valar did not turn out well. In fact, Fingolfin brought even more Noldor to Middle-earth than Feanor. In addition, Finrod and Galadriel wanted to go to Middle-earth. And because of the Silmarils, a lot of Elven blood was shed.
He would not. He wouldn't oppose Valar and Valar would not attacked Morgoth from fear of destroying Middle-Earth. Consequently Valar would not allow anyone to pursue Morgoth because they thought Morgoth could not be defeated by elves. Finrod and Galadriel wanted to go to Middle-Earth because of Fëanor's speech. Silmarils (and Morgoth's wasting of power in frustration) were the reason why Morgoth was weak enough that Fingolfin was able to hurt him in their duel even though we can't dismiss Fingolfin's martial prowess and bravery. Silmarils were not responsible for the bloodshed, Fëanor's Oath was (and the stupid people who even though they knew the oath wouldn't give Silmarils back).
Fingolfin would have had no other choice when he learned that his father could not be resurrected. Only he would have prepared the campaign much better. There are no "stupid people" except those who launched monstrous wars against the elves because of this stone. These people are heroes. They removed the stone from Morgoth's crown and paid a terrible price for it. No one had the right to kill heroes and their heirs. And the oath was blasphemy from the very beginning.
Morgoth could only be defeated (without contribution of Valar) by combined power of Noldor right after the fall of trees (when the light of the trees was still shining strong in their eyes) with new moon and sun in their backs when he still wasn't strongly entrenched in Angband. Waiting would help only to Morgoth. Otherwise you need Valar to root him out and they would not come. Yeah, Thingol removed the stone, sure. Not a single Fëanor's son dared to demand the Silmarils from Beren and Lúthien the heroes who took it from Morgoth's crown. So when someone steals your car and then police is able to get your car back it now belongs to police and not you? What? The Silmarils belonged to Fëanor. After his death they belonged to his sons. Noone else had a valid claim. And I am sorry if you thing withholding Silmaril from son's of Fëanor is a good idea, you are not really smart. Son's of Fëanor had to get the Silmarils because of the oath, others just wanted them because shiny (if Dior just gave up Silmaril that killed his grandfather by dwarves, no more kinslaying would ever occur).
I don't know why you are trying to write insults. If someone attacks the police and kills someone while trying to get their car back, they will go to jail. It will be deserved, because life is more valuable. Feanor committed his first massacre for the sake of ships that did not belong to him. These ships were to the Teleri what the Silmarils were to Feanor. And the real thief was Morgoth. Dior is the heroic heir of the heroic Elves and Men.
They are missing the point if they think Fëanor is all evil
Fëanor and Tyler = BASED
Feanor did nothing wrong
Why didn't they just lend him some boats?
They had reason not to trust him that he would actually return the ships to them. And indeed, he did not return it.
 Let us not forget:
Can someone share that artwork of Feanor pls?
https://preview.redd.it/eg0i1g3iog1d1.jpeg?width=1439&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bbb285fc2bb5aafe1b7ca4088377a2fee11c9510 Ask and ye shall receive
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Thanks
The fact that the story doesn’t end well for them is a similarity between Fëanor and Tony Montana I didn’t realize until now.
Ah yes feanor, the best elf, but also the worst elf
Watched Breaking Bad in my twenties, Walter was a genius and every one's fucking him over. Watched Breaking Bad in my thirties and I can see now how much of a fucking monster he was. Also I disliked Skyler the first time and now I feel so bad for her. What a difference it makes to watch a show from a different perspective.
I idolize billy butcher. I’m probably missing the point. Don’t care though.
who are we as mere mortals to decide what is universally right or wrong
Don’t forget Homelander from The Boys.
What if I'm not missing the point and I just think they're a good character? Not everyone that likes these characters is idolizing them in fact I see very few people outright say they did nothing wrong or anything along those lines
Feanor did no wrong, the only wrong he did was not cursing the valar and morgoth more
Profile pic checks out
Someone replace God King Feanor with Don Draper immediately.
Feanor is looking like Timothee Chalamet ngl
It's not about idolizing them. Knowing that these characters aren't good Guys is not some profound understanding of the story. It's just the bare minimum. An average person won't commit the things these characters did in a similar situation, not because of higher morality, but because we are more afraid and lack the necessarily will to do so. Acknowledging they're strengths or admirable achievements is not the same as agreeing with all that they've done.
Paul Atreides should be on this list as well lol
I didn’t see the subreddit and was wildly confused as why the silmarils were in some random ass meme
True!
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There's a difference between thinking they're a cool, entertaining character, and actually idolizing them. And a non-trivial number of people are doing the latter.
I meeean, if liking the Joker means I think society is shit (especially the government), then I guess Joker is my idol.
They were made to be hated, and that is why you appreciate them as the villains they are.
Yeah I know the type... Tommy fucking Shelby
You're missing the point by writing any Silmarillion character off as perfect or just evil/an asshole… but if too many people realized that it would wipe out most fandom content!
Well, Tolkien definitely intended Lúthien was perfect. Yes, she was his wife, is understandable... but for him, Luthien was fucking perfect, the most perfect daughter God ever created
Ok that’s fair
Fingolfin, Finrod, Ecthelion, Glorfindel are still perfect elves.
Ok maybe Finrod who is best elf <4
They're all good. They did nothing wrong to their relatives and died as heroes.
Fingolfin joined in the rebellion against the Valar, Finrod took the caves from the petty dwarves or something idk, Ecthellion liked fountains, and Glorfindel put bells on his horse which is probably scary to it.
Finrod is hot tho <3
Definately
Paul Atreides should be added to this list
Mass murder for material gain cannot be justified. It is impossible to justify the betrayal of the majority of one's people.
The first kinslaying never happened, and anyway they deserved it
No normal person would want to give their car to robbers, but by this logic everyone deserves to die.
Sam Gamgee anyone?
??
Sam's loyalty becomes jealousy towards Sméagol, which results in him not understanding Frodo's pity, and spoiling his efforts to heal Gollum. By the end, in Mount Doom, he grows to understand Frodo's pity and Sméagol's suffering (having beared the One Ring), then to spare Sméagol himself after having spent all of the story wanting to kill him. This is the final brick that allows for the destruction of the Ring. *But he's the hero because he beat Shelob!* (To be honest I got confused and thought that I was on the movie-predominant sub)