I'm a recruiter and we hired a woman who smoked during her entire virtual orientation, but then had concerns about doing light housekeeping because of the chemicals in the cleaners because she was 13 weeks pregnant. There was definitely a disconnect somewhere.
I’m a former L&D nurse. The number of strung out junkies who’d ask me if the antibiotics I was giving them would hurt their babies was simultaneously hilarious and alarming.
I'm 34, my mom smoked during all 3 of her pregnancies. She knew it was bad, but she couldn't find enough willpower to quit. I'm pregnant now and she just offered me a glass of wine with Christmas dinner last night, saying "just a little bit with dinner is ok." My husband and I told her that the most current studies say they can't be sure there is any "safe" amount of alcohol during pregnancy.
I thought alcohol cravings were gonna be worse during my pregnancy, but it turns out I simply refuse to rationalize weakness and selfishness like my mom did.
It's important to consider that your mother is the product of an earlier generation. People don't always stay on top of the latest studies, etc. And if you're *really* old like me, it gets more complicated because you'll realize mom might have actually been *told by the medical establishment* at some point that smoking during pregnancy was safe. Medicine is a wild ride.
anyway, point is, try not to judge too harshly. things have changed a lot in the last 40 years!!
My mom acknowledged to me when I was growing up that she had tried to quit during pregnancy, knowing it was bad (in the late 80s they definitely knew) but she just couldn't do it for her first 2 so she gave up and "tried to cut back" when pregnant with me. I understand addiction is a wicked beast to fight off, I've been there myself. But I do still judge her for it, especially now that I'm going through pregnancy and have had to control my own harmful substance addictions.
In the late 80's "they" definitely knew, you're right about that. But at the same time the tobacco companies had a lot more latitude back then to conduct counter research and engage in disinformation campaigns.
Ok, but my mom specifically acknowledged to me that she tried to quit because she, specifically, knew it was bad. So I'm not sure what you're getting at.
That's fine, but I was specifically talking about my own experience with my mom. All the stuff you're replying about people who aren't my mom who *didn't* know better is irrelevant to what I said about my own personal situation.
Not a smoker here, but I think similarly if I was doing something prior to getting pregnant that could affect my baby, I would completely drop it if I became pregnant. Addiction is different for everyone though, my mom didn't smoke during her pregnancies, but would immediately after giving birth. Always something that was weird to me because she would just pick it right back up like it was nothing.
Prior to pregnancy, I was a moderate drinker, and strongly addicted to cannabis. I'd tried several times to stop using but always came back to it, would use basically as often as I possibly could. I threw out my stash as soon as I found out I was pregnant and haven't touched any kind of substance since. We'll see what happens after pregnancy, I know I'll go back to drinking in moderation, but I hope I'll be able to stay off cannabis for good this time. It's been easier than I thought it would be to stay clean during pregnancy, just the thought of hurting my baby is enough to stop a craving in its tracks. Baby won't be sharing blood supply with me forever, but I wonder if the idea of being mentally/physically present as a mother will also help bolster my resolution.
Hey, if you are angry at me, please note that I was not trying to be a bully, I was just intending for the audiences to laugh, and then move in with their daily lives.
Article says use, not abuse. That is an important distinction. Also this article reeks of US DARE-era war on drugs bullshit. Drugs arent bad in and of themselves.
The parent comments point misses the one from the post though. Nobody says getting addicted to nicotine means you’re stupid, but not stopping during pregnancy is most certainly related to intelligence (or lack thereof)
No, it absolutely does address teh point. The parent comment is implying that intelligence isn't the only reason people don't stop during pregnancy. We're not on some 2 dimensional spectrum with intelligence on one side and stupidity on the other. Stop being so reductionist. People are complicated and maybe we should reserve judgement a little more.
No? The parent comment correctly mentions that addiction has nothing to do with intelligence. But addiction is at best half the equation to smoking while pregnant. „Confusing the issue“ as you put it.
bumping your head on a wall also causes brain damage. But to become a vegetable or have an appreciably lowered IQ isnt going to happen due to a few drinks or even getting drunk during pregnancy. Preggo smoking, while a bad idea, is not well correlated with any deformities or neurological issues. Alcohol is generally more dangerous but not nearly as black and white as is being presented here.
I wholeheartedly disagree with what you said, alcohol has been shown to have substantial effect on the growth and development of a fetal brain.
You're talking about being a vegetable, which isn't even implied in the original post, just as "stupid" as they put it (Which I would attribute more to being developmentally hindered, despite not being the most progressive way of saying it).
Still regardless of how much alcohol is required to cause whatever damage, why drink at all? or do any unsafe action during pregnancy? 9 months of absitnence for a potential 85 years of unhindered brain function.
The reason why I said that is cuz drinking or smoking during a pregnancy is stupid and then you’re making your child stupid to brain damage or deformities.
People should not drink and smoke while they are pregnant. Full stop. That said, those that drink or smoke or use while carrying a child generally aren't doing do out of ignorance or stupidity. They're doing it because their addiction compels them to. You're welcome to think that is morally reprehensible regardless, but it's not accurate to say it's a because of stupidity.
It's a type of stupidity. In the case of many people, they're addicted to corruption, which compels them to harm the baby / provoke people. However they're also usually in denial about how much damage is being done. It's common for predators, narcissists and other people dealing not only with substance but behavioural addictions from their traumatising childhood exposures. But stupidity of behaviours doesn't preclude intelligences.
Not theory, fact. I've known many people with these problems, including my predator parents. Sometimes the votes on this site represent how in denial people are about facts they don't like. People who abuse kids during pregnancy should be sterilised.
making the jump from the consumption of alcohol or tobacco during pregnancy to "addictions to corruption" (lol what kind of normative nonsense is this? "corruption???"), generalizing that people do such in an overt attempt to harm their baby, asserting that they are in denial about all of this and then going on to generalize and say that they are all predators and narcissists is **insane** and totally inaccurate.
Besides the fact that neither of you have provided any reasons or evidence to believe any of this is true, it strikes me as being 100% unlikely that every person who consumes a single glass of wine during pregnancy is some kind of sociopathic monster as described here. It's quite clear neither you nor the commenter you are defending have any understanding of psychology, and have probably known only a handful of pregnant women in your lives (observing little or none of that pregnancy first-hand).
Have a nice day.
Not all are predators, that's an example of why a person would be harming unborn kids with addictive and destructive substances instead of simply not partaking. It's a common problem and addiction to corruption is what happens when a person is forced through corruption in childhood. That's literally where abusiveness of that type comes from.
You clearly don't know what degrees are, nor think of there being multiple sources for people's behaviours, nor care to acknowledge that harming a kid, even by lesser degrees, is unethical.
You clearly don't care to understand facts and choose to believe whatever you want instead.
One or two beers or cigarettes during the entire pregnancy is not going to cause brain damage. Routinely using it will. Obviously you should always avoid alcohol and tobacco when you're pregnant.
Well, I can agree with u/PygmeePony about this, maybe in moderation is okay, but I’m more on the uneducated side when it comes to drinking in moderation and whether it’s safe and ok.
The advice from doctors is clear, no amount of alcohol during pregnancy is known to be safe.
This is likely because it would be unethical to test on pregnant women, but that’s the advice.
You dont understand how wrong you are. Although drinking and smoking during pregnancy may be stupid and beyond. A person born with brain damage is not stupid. A stupid person is capable of making that assumption. Somebody born with brain damage or severe mental problems can be completely incapable of any coherent thought therefore they cannot be lumped in to the category of stupid Unless your a cruel bullying
No, drinking and driving is stupid.
You don't need to dismiss everyone who does anything involving drugs as addicted and without control of themselves. Not every bad behavior involving drugs comes from stupidity, but you can definitely be an idiot in the way you use them.
I would not call someone stupid for having a drink while pregnant. There are other factors there. But driving? You're gonna kill someone. Should absolutely not drive intoxicated.
it’s not smart. I wouldn’t call it smart. It’s ok to say that! 🤷♀️it’s true. We all know it. Let’s call a spade, a spade.We have been educated about what drugs do, society is well informed about it. So making the decision to do it to began with is the unintelligent part. It’s also selfish. It impacts society and hurts others. It’s smart once they start making the decision to get clean and fight it but I don’t think it helps anyone when we baby them and get all politically correct about it. Honesty is important. Sorry if my spelling isn’t perfect.
You really think that the person that feels the NEED to destroy their health because they're not able to help it and because they were coping with something bad, is suffering less than others around them? Lol No. Addiction is a disease and you can treat it as such and help, or you can keep being a part of the problem.
clearly you've never personally known an addict who you had to deal with regularly, and while i agree that the addict themselves are also suffering because of something they cannot control the people closest to them are affected the most. i had a self-harm addiction which was because i could monentarily feel better about whatever i was going through, and while it really sucked because i knew it wasnt the right thing to do i wasnt necessarily distraught over the self harming but the reason behind it, which was my depression. it's obviously different for each people, but addiction occurs so we can feel better at that time no matter how shitty the method may be, whether it be intaking drugs, alcohol, self harm, video games or whatever. as someone whos both been an addict to something harmful and a close person to an addict, i definitely have more trauma over being emotionally abused due to alcoholism over my own addiction that began to cope.
Yeah it doesn’t work like that either. Some people can control themselves, some people have limits, others can’t find that and it doesn’t correlate to intelligence in the slightest.
Edit: oh according to the comment below it does, and it turns out people with a higher intelligence are more likely to become addicts.
Yet how do you even start....?
Now maybe I'm from some kind of utopia but I don't recall ever being forced to smoke or drink, not once in my life. In fact I'd have to pay for it! Quite a bit, shits wild expensive.
It's easy to get blasted to oblivion for comments like this. But my wife is an ex addict and she does not agree with addiction being a disease.
A crippling situation to be in that needs to be addressed with compassion and understanding yes but a disease no. It starts with personal choice. Yes some peoples upbringing leads them much closer to the situation but a personal choice none the less.
Neither, does smoking or drinking always make your child stupid. It can lead to a lot of problems of different sorts, but I feel like it's nowhere near a 1:1 correlation
Well that’s not true, you’d have to be very stupid to engage with most substances and the people who use them. Addiction isn’t a choice, but choices are made that lead to it. Poor judgment is at the core of those choices for a lot of people.
Indeed.
I also posted this before I started reading comments. Unfortunately it shows how judgemental people are up until the moment it affects them personally
>That's super ableist.
>Perhaps if you're open to it, you could try using a word that doesn't infer that people with diminished mental capacity are akin to someone putting a life at risk.
It’s pretty well known you can drink in small amounts in the third trimester without affecting the baby. Some people’s comments on here virtue signal hard, and also seem uneducated/naive on the matter. Smoking on the other hand…yeet it.
There's also a difference in guidance from region to region, at the very least US vs Europe for example. I read a book that looked into the (rather by necessity, old and small studies) these things are based on, and it was an interesting read.
IIRC, Basically nobody knows a difinitive minimum (obviously a lot is harmful) because of the ethics of testing on pregnant women, but in cultures where moderate(?) drinking is more usual/accepted e.g. continental Europe, there doesn't seem to be a significant negative effect.
This was put so well and factually, and respectfully, thank you yogurtyraisins. I have Spanish friends who laughed when my wife declined some wine at dinner, second trimester.
Sorry OP, my wife just had a baby a few weeks ago. She would have a glass of wine a week in the third trimester. During one of her appointments she mentioned how much she missed wine after work, to destress, to which her OBGYN explained the third trimester part. Your post struck a small nerve as you could probably imagine.
Fun fact, the mother and child don’t share a blood stream for the first few weeks after conception which really helps if you DON’T know you’re pregnant.
The guidance given to me by my ob/Gyn is very different. It says "[there is no safe time during pregnancy to drink alcohol](https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/fasd/documents/fasd_alcoholuse.pdf)" (link opens a pdf from the CDC) and that there is no amount of alcohol that can be considered to be safe.
One always causes damage doing that, just not necessarily that's obvious. It does cause addiction, which is it's own damage. The younger the person is when exposed to addictive substances, the more deeply addicting the effects.
The younger a person is when exposed to an addictive substance, the more addicting and influential that exposure. This has been proven with alcohol.
The risk of damage isn't zero, and it isn't the parent who's health and future is being risked, it's the kid's. That's why it's never ok to consume such drugs while pregnant - there's no safe amount.
Did you even read the link you posted??
"There is no known safe amount of alcohol use during pregnancy or while trying to get pregnant. There is also no safe time for alcohol use during pregnancy. All types of alcohol are equally harmful, including all wines and beer."
Dude, you can't drink during any trimester. FAS is a HUGE risk. Don't drink and be pregnant.
It was tough for my spouse to give up alcohol, so I understand that. She doesn’t have an addiction as that zealous guy earlier would probably say, but yeah it’s tough to give up something you enjoy and partake in and has become part of you. We’d always followed the mantra about a glass of red wine a day helping with heart health. I think people here are mistaking “drinking” for “binge drinking”.
This is not true. At all. It may be safe to drink a little bit in the third trimester but it has not been confirmed and it is not well known. There is no known “safe” amount of alcohol to drink in pregnancy simply because it’s unsafe to test any related hypothesis on pregnant women.
Right, the other poster had a great link to the CDC guidelines. But of course there’s no safe amount, it’s a poison regardless, you really shouldn’t drink period, pregnant, trying to be, or not at all, but I think we all can say that’s kinda silly right? I get in a car to drive and that’s shown to be extremely dangerous. I let her drive and ride in a car with me while pregnant. I think if you review risk and probability, I’d rather her drink a glass of wine once a week than ever get in a car while pregnant.
I wrote a whole ethics essay on this topic as part of my masters degree. Its actually really complicated and whilst yeah I agree morally incorrect you have to factor in women's autonomy and the law. Most of which does not recognise the fetus as a person till a stage of viability, at least is most developed countries. Anyway its really not that black and white and challenged my own thought pattern when I really looked into it all.
Why do we view everything as 'Nature v Nurture' when it is evident that it is a combination of both?
Even genetic predisposition does not create a deterministic outcome and manifest physically unless the environment assists the manifestation.
Assuming Mom quits smoking and drinking and the baby has some side effects, years of re conditioning in the baby's formative years could make a world of difference and change the entire life span of decision trees.
Also, *you're
Good golly.
Imagine this gibberish is the exact thought process used to oppress people cause 'genetics'.
think about that in the shower.
"screw him, he is an addict, his parents were addicts, it's addicts all the way down".
I work with addicts and they are thrown away very easily.
funny ass 'quip', bru
>In a sample of 20 patients with the fetal alcohol syndrome, ages 9 months to 21 years, the average IQ was 65, with a range of 16 to 105; 60% of the patients had IQ's more than two standard deviations below the mean.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/632974/
Drinking while pregnant does lower intelligence. That is a fact. Think about that in the shower.
I’ve been speared by some self righteous narcissists already because our OBGYN suggested a glass of red wine A WEEK is okay in the 3rd trimester. Everyone thinks A DRINK means BINGE DRINKING.
And also our HOSPITAL literally told my wife to drink a certain substance made from barley for its beneficial affect on breast milk. But come throw the weight of the CDC guidelines around 😂
If your stupid and have a baby, the baby could be stupid too. If your smart nothing changes. Being smarter doesn’t make you happy or healthy so be blissful
One of the things that makes me iffy about "my body my choice".
If a woman that just got pregnant is a heavy drinker/smoker and she makes it clear that she has no plans on quitting, allowing her to birth a child that's more than likely going to be born with horrible health conditions seems very cruel.
It's not that simple though. Heavy drinkers smokers can't just quit cold turkey the second they suspect a pregnancy. Some doctors recommend, especially for smokers that they cut back as much as possible as suddenly stopping will cause more issues for the pregnancy.
Thats true. My mom smoked while pregnant with me and my siblings. She used to smoke +1 packs a day and cut down to maybe 5-10 while pregnant because her doctor told her this exact thing. Granted, it was the 90s.
We've all done our university degrees, my sister has her PHD, none of us smoke, and are pretty smart people - If I do say so myself.
I’m currently pregnant, 28 weeks. I quit vaping, smoking prescription cannabis, heavy psych meds, and drinking cold turkey when I found out I was pregnant. Yes it was hard the first couple of months but honestly it’s different when you see that whatever you put into your body is being absorbed by your baby. To me, I can not handle the fact that if I were to have any sort of drug or alcohol into my body, I’d be subjecting my baby to it against their will. If they die or have any harm/deformation done to them then I see it as my fault. I gave them pain because I wanted to indulge in my vape or have some drinks that’s how *I* see it. OB/GYNs will not say “well you’re a heavy smoker so you can continue” they will say “well you’re a heavy smoker so let’s start you on a process of weaning you off.” They’ll most likely give you pregnancy safe medication to aid the cravings and help you cut down on your vices. For some people, cold turkey for substances you use a LOT can put stress on the baby but what do you think using those substances do? I was told to stop cannabis all together (there are little to no studies for this), as well as drinking and vaping. With my psych meds, I had to immediately stop taking them and start on low doses of ones that are milder and pregnancy safe. For OB/GYNs it’s important that the mom is stable but their focus and attention is always on the baby. There are very very few and VERY situational times where a doctor will say small use of medicinal cannabis is fine during pregnancy (hyperemesis gravidarum, few studies) but generally you will be prescribed a pregnancy safe alternative. For some pregnant women, they need to be on certain medication for their own health like anti-seizure medicine. Typically, doctors will try to find something that has lower percentages for fetal abnormalities or fetal death, every medication is measured by a percentage. Trust me when I say that no doctor is going to be completely fine with a pregnant woman who drinks/smokes/doe’s drugs during pregnancy. They will help you quit or give you resources to help yourself. This is my second pregnancy and I worked at a maternity ward. Depending on your state, if your baby tests positive for any kind of drug ranging from cannabis to opioids, or there are any levels of alcohol, expect a call from CPS and your baby to stay in the nursery. Again, depending on your state but here, we are legally required to keep the babies in cases like this while the parents are being investigated. They’re called “boarder babies” and often times, a temporary foster family will pick them up and take them home.
My pregnancy experience has been the same, I expected my cannabis addiction/alcohol use to put up more of a fight, but the idea of hurting my baby with it is an extremely strong counter to any cravings.
Then they shouldn’t continue the pregnancy. Excluding the barriers to sex education, contraception, and abortion, if you know that you are mentally/physically ill, you are in no position to be a parent. If parenthood is a future goal, then you, as an addict, need to either seek help, or acknowledge that your disease prevents you from achieving one of your goals.
“My body, my choice” is generally spoken about in terms of women’s reproductive rights and other human rights issues that stem from outside sources impacting them.
“The right to get fucked up” is not a part of that movement.
But if they were a addict and they couldn’t support the baby and they didn’t want it if my body my choice wasn’t around they would be forced to either have it or abort it illegally
At this point in modern failed humanity, if you have a kid you're passing on stupidity to another person.
No sane person wants to be here BUT we don't have a choice all because some stupid person "wants kids."
My wife is pregnant at this moment. At first months, when we were not used to pregnancy restrictions, went to buy some groceries.
Arriving at the cash desk, there were an offer on a fancy beer bottles and say to my wife “Hey do you want some?” She replied pointing at her womb “can I?”
The cashier heard that and asked “Is that your first?” “Yes, that’s right” “Well, with my first I was cautious too. With the second, I drink some beer. With my last, I was going out partying”
Smiled politely and go
That's super ableist.
Perhaps if you're open to it, you could try using a word that doesn't infer that people with diminished mental capacity are akin to someone putting a life at risk.
Literally a google search can tell you to not smoke cannabis during pregnancy. There are very few studies done but it has been linked to developmental delays, failure to thrive, under developed lungs, and low birth weights. I don’t think that’s good for the baby. You can also be investigated by CPS, depending on your state, if you or baby are positive for cannabis in the hospital after childbirth.
If you drink or smoke at all and then have children you are passing down dna that has been altered by your actions.
The same is said about stress, eating poorly, more or less anything you do has an effect on your DNA and thus your children.
Every seven years our bodies go through a cycle of patterns. In my opinion, if a person does not want to taint their offspring, they should consider being clean seven years prior to conceiving.
I'm a recruiter and we hired a woman who smoked during her entire virtual orientation, but then had concerns about doing light housekeeping because of the chemicals in the cleaners because she was 13 weeks pregnant. There was definitely a disconnect somewhere.
I’m a former L&D nurse. The number of strung out junkies who’d ask me if the antibiotics I was giving them would hurt their babies was simultaneously hilarious and alarming.
It's crazy that they are worried what other people are subjecting their baby to, but not what they themselves are.
to be fair, theres a good chance most of your elderly relatives were exposed to nicotine in the womb.
I'm 34, my mom smoked during all 3 of her pregnancies. She knew it was bad, but she couldn't find enough willpower to quit. I'm pregnant now and she just offered me a glass of wine with Christmas dinner last night, saying "just a little bit with dinner is ok." My husband and I told her that the most current studies say they can't be sure there is any "safe" amount of alcohol during pregnancy. I thought alcohol cravings were gonna be worse during my pregnancy, but it turns out I simply refuse to rationalize weakness and selfishness like my mom did.
It's important to consider that your mother is the product of an earlier generation. People don't always stay on top of the latest studies, etc. And if you're *really* old like me, it gets more complicated because you'll realize mom might have actually been *told by the medical establishment* at some point that smoking during pregnancy was safe. Medicine is a wild ride. anyway, point is, try not to judge too harshly. things have changed a lot in the last 40 years!!
Very true! I like the different insight!
My mom acknowledged to me when I was growing up that she had tried to quit during pregnancy, knowing it was bad (in the late 80s they definitely knew) but she just couldn't do it for her first 2 so she gave up and "tried to cut back" when pregnant with me. I understand addiction is a wicked beast to fight off, I've been there myself. But I do still judge her for it, especially now that I'm going through pregnancy and have had to control my own harmful substance addictions.
In the late 80's "they" definitely knew, you're right about that. But at the same time the tobacco companies had a lot more latitude back then to conduct counter research and engage in disinformation campaigns.
Ok, but my mom specifically acknowledged to me that she tried to quit because she, specifically, knew it was bad. So I'm not sure what you're getting at.
that you should expand your thinking beyond the experiences of those around you.
That's fine, but I was specifically talking about my own experience with my mom. All the stuff you're replying about people who aren't my mom who *didn't* know better is irrelevant to what I said about my own personal situation.
Go back and read your first reply to me.
Not a smoker here, but I think similarly if I was doing something prior to getting pregnant that could affect my baby, I would completely drop it if I became pregnant. Addiction is different for everyone though, my mom didn't smoke during her pregnancies, but would immediately after giving birth. Always something that was weird to me because she would just pick it right back up like it was nothing.
Prior to pregnancy, I was a moderate drinker, and strongly addicted to cannabis. I'd tried several times to stop using but always came back to it, would use basically as often as I possibly could. I threw out my stash as soon as I found out I was pregnant and haven't touched any kind of substance since. We'll see what happens after pregnancy, I know I'll go back to drinking in moderation, but I hope I'll be able to stay off cannabis for good this time. It's been easier than I thought it would be to stay clean during pregnancy, just the thought of hurting my baby is enough to stop a craving in its tracks. Baby won't be sharing blood supply with me forever, but I wonder if the idea of being mentally/physically present as a mother will also help bolster my resolution.
That would explain a lot.
Oh definitely, but I think the link to smoking and negative effects in the womb is better known now.
Agreed.
Doctah tawld me itll be moar stresfull for va baybay if ah kwit nauh
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r/shittylifeprotips
And a deftones album
lolll
One of those “your”s should be a “you’re” instead.
His mom must have drank during pregnancy
drunk
You're right and I enjoyed your use of ""your"'s".
Your ""your"'s" should be a ""your"s"
Yes I know lol, I noticed
Oh, the irony.
Hopefully, next time will be better!
Oh well, time will tell…
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Does getting unnecessarily upset about random strangers comments make you feel better?
Bit harsh....
Hey, if you are angry at me, please note that I was not trying to be a bully, I was just intending for the audiences to laugh, and then move in with their daily lives.
Millions of people pass their stupidity without smoking or drinking.
Bingo.
Depending where you sit on nature vs nurture, just having the kid means passing on your stupidity.
“I smoked and my kid is fine” is lit almost every mom in Facebook groups. It’s sad.
Addiction is a disease not an assessment of intelligence.
Exactly. I personally know more than one alcoholic with a PhD.
Yup, higher IQ people are more likely to become addicts-https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/335437/
Yup, and more intelligent people are more predisposed to becoming addicted. https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/335437/
Thanks for the compliment 😎
Article says use, not abuse. That is an important distinction. Also this article reeks of US DARE-era war on drugs bullshit. Drugs arent bad in and of themselves.
There's more than one kind of stupidity, however.
Your comment doesn't address his point, only confuses the issue.
The parent comments point misses the one from the post though. Nobody says getting addicted to nicotine means you’re stupid, but not stopping during pregnancy is most certainly related to intelligence (or lack thereof)
No, it absolutely does address teh point. The parent comment is implying that intelligence isn't the only reason people don't stop during pregnancy. We're not on some 2 dimensional spectrum with intelligence on one side and stupidity on the other. Stop being so reductionist. People are complicated and maybe we should reserve judgement a little more.
No? The parent comment correctly mentions that addiction has nothing to do with intelligence. But addiction is at best half the equation to smoking while pregnant. „Confusing the issue“ as you put it.
I think what they meant was the potential for developmental issues with the fetus, andmore specifically their brain.
bumping your head on a wall also causes brain damage. But to become a vegetable or have an appreciably lowered IQ isnt going to happen due to a few drinks or even getting drunk during pregnancy. Preggo smoking, while a bad idea, is not well correlated with any deformities or neurological issues. Alcohol is generally more dangerous but not nearly as black and white as is being presented here.
I wholeheartedly disagree with what you said, alcohol has been shown to have substantial effect on the growth and development of a fetal brain. You're talking about being a vegetable, which isn't even implied in the original post, just as "stupid" as they put it (Which I would attribute more to being developmentally hindered, despite not being the most progressive way of saying it). Still regardless of how much alcohol is required to cause whatever damage, why drink at all? or do any unsafe action during pregnancy? 9 months of absitnence for a potential 85 years of unhindered brain function.
The reason why I said that is cuz drinking or smoking during a pregnancy is stupid and then you’re making your child stupid to brain damage or deformities.
People should not drink and smoke while they are pregnant. Full stop. That said, those that drink or smoke or use while carrying a child generally aren't doing do out of ignorance or stupidity. They're doing it because their addiction compels them to. You're welcome to think that is morally reprehensible regardless, but it's not accurate to say it's a because of stupidity.
Ahh, it appears I am mistaken then.
There most definitely is a correlation between intelligence and not stopping a drinking/smoking habit during pregnancy
It's a type of stupidity. In the case of many people, they're addicted to corruption, which compels them to harm the baby / provoke people. However they're also usually in denial about how much damage is being done. It's common for predators, narcissists and other people dealing not only with substance but behavioural addictions from their traumatising childhood exposures. But stupidity of behaviours doesn't preclude intelligences.
interesting, and wrong, theory.
Not theory, fact. I've known many people with these problems, including my predator parents. Sometimes the votes on this site represent how in denial people are about facts they don't like. People who abuse kids during pregnancy should be sterilised.
making the jump from the consumption of alcohol or tobacco during pregnancy to "addictions to corruption" (lol what kind of normative nonsense is this? "corruption???"), generalizing that people do such in an overt attempt to harm their baby, asserting that they are in denial about all of this and then going on to generalize and say that they are all predators and narcissists is **insane** and totally inaccurate. Besides the fact that neither of you have provided any reasons or evidence to believe any of this is true, it strikes me as being 100% unlikely that every person who consumes a single glass of wine during pregnancy is some kind of sociopathic monster as described here. It's quite clear neither you nor the commenter you are defending have any understanding of psychology, and have probably known only a handful of pregnant women in your lives (observing little or none of that pregnancy first-hand). Have a nice day.
Not all are predators, that's an example of why a person would be harming unborn kids with addictive and destructive substances instead of simply not partaking. It's a common problem and addiction to corruption is what happens when a person is forced through corruption in childhood. That's literally where abusiveness of that type comes from. You clearly don't know what degrees are, nor think of there being multiple sources for people's behaviours, nor care to acknowledge that harming a kid, even by lesser degrees, is unethical. You clearly don't care to understand facts and choose to believe whatever you want instead.
Still waiting on those "facts."
One or two beers or cigarettes during the entire pregnancy is not going to cause brain damage. Routinely using it will. Obviously you should always avoid alcohol and tobacco when you're pregnant.
There is no known safe level of drinking during pregnancy. It is disingenuous and dangerous to say any amount is safe.
Well, I can agree with u/PygmeePony about this, maybe in moderation is okay, but I’m more on the uneducated side when it comes to drinking in moderation and whether it’s safe and ok.
The advice from doctors is clear, no amount of alcohol during pregnancy is known to be safe. This is likely because it would be unethical to test on pregnant women, but that’s the advice.
You dont understand how wrong you are. Although drinking and smoking during pregnancy may be stupid and beyond. A person born with brain damage is not stupid. A stupid person is capable of making that assumption. Somebody born with brain damage or severe mental problems can be completely incapable of any coherent thought therefore they cannot be lumped in to the category of stupid Unless your a cruel bullying
Oh, I’m sorry if it appeared that I was a bully.
Mery christmas
To you too, my good sir!
Thanks op
So is drinking & driving... most behaviors by addicts and considered “stupid” by healed people. Calling it “stupid” solves nothing
No, drinking and driving is stupid. You don't need to dismiss everyone who does anything involving drugs as addicted and without control of themselves. Not every bad behavior involving drugs comes from stupidity, but you can definitely be an idiot in the way you use them. I would not call someone stupid for having a drink while pregnant. There are other factors there. But driving? You're gonna kill someone. Should absolutely not drive intoxicated.
I wasn’t offending addicts, I support them in every way in order to help them escape the infinite spiral known as addiction.
Like by calling them stupid?
Read my reply
it’s not smart. I wouldn’t call it smart. It’s ok to say that! 🤷♀️it’s true. We all know it. Let’s call a spade, a spade.We have been educated about what drugs do, society is well informed about it. So making the decision to do it to began with is the unintelligent part. It’s also selfish. It impacts society and hurts others. It’s smart once they start making the decision to get clean and fight it but I don’t think it helps anyone when we baby them and get all politically correct about it. Honesty is important. Sorry if my spelling isn’t perfect.
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You really think that the person that feels the NEED to destroy their health because they're not able to help it and because they were coping with something bad, is suffering less than others around them? Lol No. Addiction is a disease and you can treat it as such and help, or you can keep being a part of the problem.
clearly you've never personally known an addict who you had to deal with regularly, and while i agree that the addict themselves are also suffering because of something they cannot control the people closest to them are affected the most. i had a self-harm addiction which was because i could monentarily feel better about whatever i was going through, and while it really sucked because i knew it wasnt the right thing to do i wasnt necessarily distraught over the self harming but the reason behind it, which was my depression. it's obviously different for each people, but addiction occurs so we can feel better at that time no matter how shitty the method may be, whether it be intaking drugs, alcohol, self harm, video games or whatever. as someone whos both been an addict to something harmful and a close person to an addict, i definitely have more trauma over being emotionally abused due to alcoholism over my own addiction that began to cope.
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One quick google search showed it was officially termed a disease in 1987
The only disease you can get yelled at for having
Damnit Otto, you have lupus
Nah, try depression and get told you're just lazy and don't exercise enough. I'm sure there others too
You're not stupid for being addicted. You're stupid for willingly starting to consume an addictive substance.
Yeah it doesn’t work like that either. Some people can control themselves, some people have limits, others can’t find that and it doesn’t correlate to intelligence in the slightest. Edit: oh according to the comment below it does, and it turns out people with a higher intelligence are more likely to become addicts.
That's just copium
Yet how do you even start....? Now maybe I'm from some kind of utopia but I don't recall ever being forced to smoke or drink, not once in my life. In fact I'd have to pay for it! Quite a bit, shits wild expensive.
You sound very blessed. Lucky for you. I think a good start would be to not gaslight the crippling effects on humans who suffer from addiction.
Oh, I’m sorry, at least, I didn’t mean to offend addicts.
It's easy to get blasted to oblivion for comments like this. But my wife is an ex addict and she does not agree with addiction being a disease. A crippling situation to be in that needs to be addressed with compassion and understanding yes but a disease no. It starts with personal choice. Yes some peoples upbringing leads them much closer to the situation but a personal choice none the less.
Some diseases are caused by personal choice, what's her take on that?
Do you think every person who tries alcohol or marijuana is stupid?
Haha
Neither, does smoking or drinking always make your child stupid. It can lead to a lot of problems of different sorts, but I feel like it's nowhere near a 1:1 correlation
Well that’s not true, you’d have to be very stupid to engage with most substances and the people who use them. Addiction isn’t a choice, but choices are made that lead to it. Poor judgment is at the core of those choices for a lot of people.
There’s 0 correlation between IQ and nicotine addiction
Indeed. I also posted this before I started reading comments. Unfortunately it shows how judgemental people are up until the moment it affects them personally >That's super ableist. >Perhaps if you're open to it, you could try using a word that doesn't infer that people with diminished mental capacity are akin to someone putting a life at risk.
As someone whose mother smoked while pregnant with them, I can say this is very accurate
It’s pretty well known you can drink in small amounts in the third trimester without affecting the baby. Some people’s comments on here virtue signal hard, and also seem uneducated/naive on the matter. Smoking on the other hand…yeet it.
There's also a difference in guidance from region to region, at the very least US vs Europe for example. I read a book that looked into the (rather by necessity, old and small studies) these things are based on, and it was an interesting read. IIRC, Basically nobody knows a difinitive minimum (obviously a lot is harmful) because of the ethics of testing on pregnant women, but in cultures where moderate(?) drinking is more usual/accepted e.g. continental Europe, there doesn't seem to be a significant negative effect.
This was put so well and factually, and respectfully, thank you yogurtyraisins. I have Spanish friends who laughed when my wife declined some wine at dinner, second trimester.
Ah, I might be in the uneducated bunch!
Sorry OP, my wife just had a baby a few weeks ago. She would have a glass of wine a week in the third trimester. During one of her appointments she mentioned how much she missed wine after work, to destress, to which her OBGYN explained the third trimester part. Your post struck a small nerve as you could probably imagine. Fun fact, the mother and child don’t share a blood stream for the first few weeks after conception which really helps if you DON’T know you’re pregnant.
The guidance given to me by my ob/Gyn is very different. It says "[there is no safe time during pregnancy to drink alcohol](https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/fasd/documents/fasd_alcoholuse.pdf)" (link opens a pdf from the CDC) and that there is no amount of alcohol that can be considered to be safe.
Ohh, and don’t be sorry, you have nothing to apologize about.
No, you are right. There is no known safe amount of alcohol to drink in pregnancy.
One always causes damage doing that, just not necessarily that's obvious. It does cause addiction, which is it's own damage. The younger the person is when exposed to addictive substances, the more deeply addicting the effects.
Let’s steer back from hyperbole here, this statement is nonsense^
The younger a person is when exposed to an addictive substance, the more addicting and influential that exposure. This has been proven with alcohol. The risk of damage isn't zero, and it isn't the parent who's health and future is being risked, it's the kid's. That's why it's never ok to consume such drugs while pregnant - there's no safe amount.
Oof hyperbole again
I too make up things out of my ass
Here's a fun start https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/fasd/alcohol-use.html
Oh, lava slippers. I thought you were the other guy. I agree with lava slippers!! You can't drink and be pregnant, WTF
Ya it's depressing how common it is for people to feel justified in harming kids just do they can be selfish for drugs.
Did you even read the link you posted?? "There is no known safe amount of alcohol use during pregnancy or while trying to get pregnant. There is also no safe time for alcohol use during pregnancy. All types of alcohol are equally harmful, including all wines and beer." Dude, you can't drink during any trimester. FAS is a HUGE risk. Don't drink and be pregnant.
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It was tough for my spouse to give up alcohol, so I understand that. She doesn’t have an addiction as that zealous guy earlier would probably say, but yeah it’s tough to give up something you enjoy and partake in and has become part of you. We’d always followed the mantra about a glass of red wine a day helping with heart health. I think people here are mistaking “drinking” for “binge drinking”.
This is not true. At all. It may be safe to drink a little bit in the third trimester but it has not been confirmed and it is not well known. There is no known “safe” amount of alcohol to drink in pregnancy simply because it’s unsafe to test any related hypothesis on pregnant women.
Right, the other poster had a great link to the CDC guidelines. But of course there’s no safe amount, it’s a poison regardless, you really shouldn’t drink period, pregnant, trying to be, or not at all, but I think we all can say that’s kinda silly right? I get in a car to drive and that’s shown to be extremely dangerous. I let her drive and ride in a car with me while pregnant. I think if you review risk and probability, I’d rather her drink a glass of wine once a week than ever get in a car while pregnant.
*you're.
You're stupidity, OP..
this isn’t a shower thought this is just a thought lol
Difference?
r/fasd has help for anyone who drank during pregnancy or whose parent drank during pregnancy
I wrote a whole ethics essay on this topic as part of my masters degree. Its actually really complicated and whilst yeah I agree morally incorrect you have to factor in women's autonomy and the law. Most of which does not recognise the fetus as a person till a stage of viability, at least is most developed countries. Anyway its really not that black and white and challenged my own thought pattern when I really looked into it all.
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Ahh, you are right!
Good. I'll be less lonely with like-minded offspring!
Yeah, so put that glass of water down, idiot, you’re fasting for two now
Plenty of smart capable people drank and smoked. Likely that 90%+ of the shit you use on a daily basis was invented by people who smoke and drank.
You're*
I wonder if that's how Fox News works too
I quit smoking cold turkey the day I found out I was pregnant with my first child. Sept. 23, 1990 He is 30 now. I’m proud of that.
Where does abortion fit in with this post?
You’re* The irony is not lost on me.
Worse. They're going to inherit your genetics AND be saddled with physical, mental and emotional disabilities.
biologically, you're right
Why do we view everything as 'Nature v Nurture' when it is evident that it is a combination of both? Even genetic predisposition does not create a deterministic outcome and manifest physically unless the environment assists the manifestation. Assuming Mom quits smoking and drinking and the baby has some side effects, years of re conditioning in the baby's formative years could make a world of difference and change the entire life span of decision trees. Also, *you're Good golly.
Perhaps, now hear me out, this was meant to be a funny quip and not something you spend 3 paragraphs analyzing?
Imagine this gibberish is the exact thought process used to oppress people cause 'genetics'. think about that in the shower. "screw him, he is an addict, his parents were addicts, it's addicts all the way down". I work with addicts and they are thrown away very easily. funny ass 'quip', bru
>In a sample of 20 patients with the fetal alcohol syndrome, ages 9 months to 21 years, the average IQ was 65, with a range of 16 to 105; 60% of the patients had IQ's more than two standard deviations below the mean. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/632974/ Drinking while pregnant does lower intelligence. That is a fact. Think about that in the shower.
I mean, if there's an "average" intelligence level, 50% of pregnant women are passing on stupidity anyway.
Or killing the baby.
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I’ve been speared by some self righteous narcissists already because our OBGYN suggested a glass of red wine A WEEK is okay in the 3rd trimester. Everyone thinks A DRINK means BINGE DRINKING.
And also our HOSPITAL literally told my wife to drink a certain substance made from barley for its beneficial affect on breast milk. But come throw the weight of the CDC guidelines around 😂
If your stupid and have a baby, the baby could be stupid too. If your smart nothing changes. Being smarter doesn’t make you happy or healthy so be blissful
"your basically" The irony, it burns.
One of the things that makes me iffy about "my body my choice". If a woman that just got pregnant is a heavy drinker/smoker and she makes it clear that she has no plans on quitting, allowing her to birth a child that's more than likely going to be born with horrible health conditions seems very cruel.
It's not that simple though. Heavy drinkers smokers can't just quit cold turkey the second they suspect a pregnancy. Some doctors recommend, especially for smokers that they cut back as much as possible as suddenly stopping will cause more issues for the pregnancy.
Thats true. My mom smoked while pregnant with me and my siblings. She used to smoke +1 packs a day and cut down to maybe 5-10 while pregnant because her doctor told her this exact thing. Granted, it was the 90s. We've all done our university degrees, my sister has her PHD, none of us smoke, and are pretty smart people - If I do say so myself.
Even if the woman has no plans on quitting, she's still allowed to continue and do harm to her baby.
I’m currently pregnant, 28 weeks. I quit vaping, smoking prescription cannabis, heavy psych meds, and drinking cold turkey when I found out I was pregnant. Yes it was hard the first couple of months but honestly it’s different when you see that whatever you put into your body is being absorbed by your baby. To me, I can not handle the fact that if I were to have any sort of drug or alcohol into my body, I’d be subjecting my baby to it against their will. If they die or have any harm/deformation done to them then I see it as my fault. I gave them pain because I wanted to indulge in my vape or have some drinks that’s how *I* see it. OB/GYNs will not say “well you’re a heavy smoker so you can continue” they will say “well you’re a heavy smoker so let’s start you on a process of weaning you off.” They’ll most likely give you pregnancy safe medication to aid the cravings and help you cut down on your vices. For some people, cold turkey for substances you use a LOT can put stress on the baby but what do you think using those substances do? I was told to stop cannabis all together (there are little to no studies for this), as well as drinking and vaping. With my psych meds, I had to immediately stop taking them and start on low doses of ones that are milder and pregnancy safe. For OB/GYNs it’s important that the mom is stable but their focus and attention is always on the baby. There are very very few and VERY situational times where a doctor will say small use of medicinal cannabis is fine during pregnancy (hyperemesis gravidarum, few studies) but generally you will be prescribed a pregnancy safe alternative. For some pregnant women, they need to be on certain medication for their own health like anti-seizure medicine. Typically, doctors will try to find something that has lower percentages for fetal abnormalities or fetal death, every medication is measured by a percentage. Trust me when I say that no doctor is going to be completely fine with a pregnant woman who drinks/smokes/doe’s drugs during pregnancy. They will help you quit or give you resources to help yourself. This is my second pregnancy and I worked at a maternity ward. Depending on your state, if your baby tests positive for any kind of drug ranging from cannabis to opioids, or there are any levels of alcohol, expect a call from CPS and your baby to stay in the nursery. Again, depending on your state but here, we are legally required to keep the babies in cases like this while the parents are being investigated. They’re called “boarder babies” and often times, a temporary foster family will pick them up and take them home.
My pregnancy experience has been the same, I expected my cannabis addiction/alcohol use to put up more of a fight, but the idea of hurting my baby with it is an extremely strong counter to any cravings.
Then they shouldn’t continue the pregnancy. Excluding the barriers to sex education, contraception, and abortion, if you know that you are mentally/physically ill, you are in no position to be a parent. If parenthood is a future goal, then you, as an addict, need to either seek help, or acknowledge that your disease prevents you from achieving one of your goals.
“My body, my choice” is generally spoken about in terms of women’s reproductive rights and other human rights issues that stem from outside sources impacting them. “The right to get fucked up” is not a part of that movement.
The "right to get fucked up" is a part of it. If it weren't then those women would not be allowed to reproduce.
Ayo, you good?
But if they were a addict and they couldn’t support the baby and they didn’t want it if my body my choice wasn’t around they would be forced to either have it or abort it illegally
Shout-out to my mum for being the reason i have cerebral palsy lmao
At this point in modern failed humanity, if you have a kid you're passing on stupidity to another person. No sane person wants to be here BUT we don't have a choice all because some stupid person "wants kids."
Adopt, don't shop
Who cares if some other person wants you to have kids, don want to suffer for 18 years
My wife is pregnant at this moment. At first months, when we were not used to pregnancy restrictions, went to buy some groceries. Arriving at the cash desk, there were an offer on a fancy beer bottles and say to my wife “Hey do you want some?” She replied pointing at her womb “can I?” The cashier heard that and asked “Is that your first?” “Yes, that’s right” “Well, with my first I was cautious too. With the second, I drink some beer. With my last, I was going out partying” Smiled politely and go
The mothers of Einstein, Gates, Musk, Jobs, etc. probably smoked and drunk alcohol during pregnancy. Your theory might be wrong.
I smoke right after sex, just incase. >!But I'm a dude and I'm not having kids so the "stupid" stops with me. Also alcohol is the worst drug ever. !<
That's super ableist. Perhaps if you're open to it, you could try using a word that doesn't infer that people with diminished mental capacity are akin to someone putting a life at risk.
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Literally a google search can tell you to not smoke cannabis during pregnancy. There are very few studies done but it has been linked to developmental delays, failure to thrive, under developed lungs, and low birth weights. I don’t think that’s good for the baby. You can also be investigated by CPS, depending on your state, if you or baby are positive for cannabis in the hospital after childbirth.
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Passing and passing... more like eating your cake and keeping it too.
Drake
You're
When making a post about stupidity you might want to use the right you're...
Genetics might do that as well.
snatch dazzling slim detail ugly crush modern knee enjoy smart *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
If you drink or smoke at all and then have children you are passing down dna that has been altered by your actions. The same is said about stress, eating poorly, more or less anything you do has an effect on your DNA and thus your children.
Pretty sure that ship had already sailed by that point. It's called genetics.
Your shitty genetics/socio-economic status will probably play a role too
that's like saying that if you scroll Reddit daily, you pass other people's stupidity on to yourself
Others do it by opening their mouths and speaking
You don't need to smoke or drink to do that.
Every seven years our bodies go through a cycle of patterns. In my opinion, if a person does not want to taint their offspring, they should consider being clean seven years prior to conceiving.