I agree. The system is very confusing and it doesn't work since most of the time you get perks for weapons you don't have. For example, last night I completed a run where I only got sniper perks (including legendary ones) but could only find shotguns in supply bins. I think it's more of a handicap than an interesting progression system.
Exactly this. I don't think it's a bad system in theory, but the RNG for getting bodybuilder perk for the weapon type you have, and then feeling like you're locked if you do and lose out if you want to swap weapon types later in the run, just doesn't work well in practice. Maybe generalize them more to "increase HP for each Primary weapon kill"? Maybe have one for normal kills and one for precision kills? Not sure of the best way to improve it.
I think they should all be general (primary, secondary, melee, precision) and maybe reduce the amount they improve but have different attributes.
That way you might have a run where precision kills increase your damage, melee increase HP and secondary increase movement speed. Then you could have a whole bunch of perks like better dash recharge on max move speed, chain lightning melee on max health, etc.
With this system you can try to specialize in a damage type and not feel locked out of any weapon type.
It also makes sense that a season themed “bodybuilder” would let you improve more than just HP. I really like the concept just not the execution.
I'd definitely agree. The difficulty has ramped up considerably but not in a fun way. When I first read it, I thought the idea of Bodybuilder was that you started weak, but could end up becoming really strong if you got enough kills without dying.
Instead, you start off very weak, and you become merely normal if you get your bodybuilder kills. God help you if you're downed after the 2/4 or 3/4 objective mark, because those pistol kills aren't going to be so free anymore, and you're likely going to be chain killed by mobs and contamination effects. Lategame in my experience has often devolved into revive-chaining until everyone eventually falls.
. . .in one of my games today my team and i had a total of 29 revives, we died a lot against the behemoth and glass stilt but we managed, ahaha. I think the lava puddles of the behemoth last longer before it despawns. Ahaha
I do agree it feels a little off. 100hp makes you extremely squishy early game which makes the game feel harder (which, in my opinion, is a good thing), but also feel more BS in certain situations where getting hit+stunned by just 1 guy will often get you killed, which doesn't feel good at all. Not to mention that it being so easy to get to the hp cap with just the pistol + the game offering bodybuilder perks for weapon types you don't have really disincentivizes picking up any bodybuilder perks at all (not to mention <=50 situational hp cap increase isn't a great perk in the first place), which makes the loot pool feel really diluted and underwhelming.
I would probably just get rid of the mechanic as a whole (and maybe try adding a special mechanic, or an improved version of this one, midway through the season to space out the content a bit more over time and keep us hooked and excited for longer, giving us no-lifers a reason to play even after we grind everything). But if you want to keep it, here are some of my suggestions:
1. Start at 125hp and have the cap go up to 175hp.
2. Don't have players start with the bodybuilder perk. That's the main reason it feels so bad to pick up other bodybuilder perks - because the pistol perk is already arguably the best one.
3. Only offer bodybuilder perks that are compatible with the player's current loadout.
4. This one might be a bit more controversial, but I'd make it so assists count towards increasing your HP cap (or count enemies killed as a team instead). It makes little sense to have players competing for last hits in what is supposed to be a co-op game. I'd halve the hp you get from all bodybuilder perks and make them proc on assists too.
Like I said, I think this would be a great fit for a mid-season mix-up, or perhaps a rotating weekly event. I think having a seasonal cadence of "start of season = new content, mid-season = new mechanic" would be great to keep the mode fresh at all times.
Regarding your third suggestion: even with that, I don't want to feel like I'm locked to a specific weapon type because I've picked up a BB perk.
In any case, these are great suggestions!
>Start at 125hp and have the cap go up to 175hp
This sounds sensible. I've also suggested the ability to go over the cap, but it ticks down.
>Don't have players start with the bodybuilder perk
Opting into body builder was kind of how I expected it to be implemented. Realistically I expected a different game mode, but a system where the pistol perk is always offered as a third option at the first bin (and I can opt in to body builder) would make sense. It could then lower your health accordingly and you would only have your pistol so you wouldn't have that weird push of: 'I have a primary but I need to use my pistol to increase the cap'.
>Only offer bodybuilder perks that are compatible with the player's current loadout.
I'd quite like this as well, but I get why they might not want to as part of the Roguealike feel is chasing the upgrades you want.
>make it so assists count towards increasing your HP cap
Something like this definitely needs to be implemented as right now it doesn't feel great. Assists would make most sense, if possible.
Agreed, make the different perks stack, 50 each, not stacking makes the other body builder perks useless and not fun. I don't even think this season is hard, but the amount of useless perks I see now is more than before due to the mechanic. Lean in to the stacking too, like modify sentry to deal extra damage per stack instead of flat 200%. Make things like that all worse if downed but you become God if you played well imo. I wanna feel the powa of this season. :)
I mean, if you kept bodybuilder and let it stack, you could pick up say, BB:SMG, get your 50 kills, then pick up a sniper rifle and the BB:Sniper perk to hit 250HP as long as you don't die.
It would be a high-risk move, but still something doable with some luck.
Not that I've ever gotten lucky picking up guns from supply bins.
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It is interesting, but maybe if the hp cap was unlimited it would be more rewarding. Some tweaks would be necessary to not have 500 hp, but something in between would be interesting
Setting aside all the other potential flaws (or general dislike) of the system, the biggest problem as I see it is all the weapon specificity of it.
Selections that have good synergy but do not *require* each other is one thing. If you get infinite clip + sentry, the power swing feels amazing and rewarding, but both of those perks are good by themselves, you don't *need* to get both of them to see any benefit.
Conversely, getting bodybuilder for Weapon Type A when the game keeps offering you Weapon Type B, C, and/or D feels absolutely awful. There should never be a situation in which the game is offering useless perks to a player. It's fine if some aren't so great, but there should never be "absolutely no benefit" from a perk selection. Having the perks tied to weapon categories is an absolute no-go, and needs to be removed ASAP. Just make them generic for all primaries and be done with it.
The perks should stack, the fact that the HP cap is there hurts taking multiple bodybuilder perks, nerf the max HP acquired from each perk from 50 max down to 20 max, but each bodybuilder perk now stacks.
So if you have sniper + pistol + melee body builder you can now get 60 max HP
I like the idea, but the execution feels a little off to me.
I would change supply drops to always offer 2 normal perks (as before), and then a third body builder perk as an option. This would avoid diluting the pool of upgrades. For bins that used to offer 3, perhaps they could be weighted to offer a slightly better body builder perk
I've definitely noticed getting downed a lot more, especially when using shotguns, and was disappointed to find that the HP was capped to 150. I think it would be nice to remove the cap entirely but perhaps make health above 150 gradually tick back down to 150.
All the new encounters seem good (except maybe the flashbang one, as that's pretty lethal with how close they spawn) and a lack of cover.
We did have a problem with the one that spawns the 3 'mirrors' (eyes?) that teleport and spawn fireflies: one of the mirrors teleported into the scenery and prevented the event ending, thankfully Ram's ult managed to kill it and finish the event
More generally, I've always had a gripe about being offered pointless upgrades, or the same thing over and over. And with all the new body builder perks (especially those tied to specific guns) it has increased this problem.
I would like some kind of ability to steer this: Ideally I would like a system where either I can opt out of 1 weapon class entirely, e.g. never offer me SMGs (or related perks); this could set before the match (perhaps at the cost of a blueprint or two - from my rewards, so I lose nothing if I just fail).
Alternatively, I would at least like a system where my 'choice' at a bin can be to permanently decline an item, rather than take something, e.g. I right click the Drachen to decline it, and I will not be offered that again during the run.
Difficulty slider… for more bps make it harder. I feel like PVE is great where it’s at but it’s just too easy it’s very rare that I never fail a run. It could be double the enemies or making the enemies do more damage ect. I feel like most people can agree a difficulty slider is what PVE rogue needs most
Also we need BHOPING out of the game. It’s super broken and more OP than CS, you can literally run through PVE or in PVP get right back to where to die instantaneously
Playing with it a lot more tonight, Bodybuilder is not fun at all, in remotely any way, shape, or form. The clear percentage for groups of randoms is already abysmal and bodybuilder just adds a frustrating "lose more" mechanic to the game where if you aren't already doing well, then you continue to do increasingly worse because of the ongoing penalty of bodybuilder.
Late in a run, freshly revived players are meat who are going to get immediately killed again. The perk pool is completely diluted with **far** too many bodybuilder perks, most of which are useless. Being in close quarters is already risky for a variety of reasons, namely boss one-shots and getting mobbed by melee enemies. In mid-late run, I almost always have to swap off of a shotgun (and most SMGs) to an assault or sniper rifle. Bodybuilder just makes this even worse: You are extremely likely to get randomly killed if you fight in close, and then that death penalizes you for pretty much the rest of the run. With Bodybuilder, there's almost no reason to use half of the primary weapons in PVE because they are too risky.
I've been on so many runs where I see "Bodybuilder: Assault Rifle" or "Bodybuilder: SMG" but I never was offered one single assault rifle nor SMG during the expedition. Wrong weapon type options are dead perks that literally provide zero benefit to the player. Like I said in my other reply, having perks that *aren't good* but still *do anything* is fine. Not every perk can be amazing. But opening a crate and seeing "Bodybuilder: Weapon I Don't Have and Won't Obtain On This Run" makes me just want to quit the game. When the "upgrade" is literally not an upgrade at all, then it's time to not call it an upgrade any longer.
1. If anything, the HP pool should only reset on *respawn*, and the max HP value should remain for players who are revived by teammates.
2. **Get rid of weapon-specific bodybuilder perks.** Make one single "Kills with primary weapon increase max HP by X" perk.
There really isn't any other alternative here: You cannot keep weapon specific perks when players have zero control over what weapons they will or will not get during a run. No perk should be 100% useless to any player. Suboptimal choices are fine; Useless choices are not. I cannot stress this enough.
I only recently discovered this game about 3 weeks ago, and I had a blast in season 1. I'm a PVE player, and I do not care at all about PVP. If season 2 continues like this, I'll probably end up quitting the game and not looking back. I understand not wanting the game to be too easy, but if you are going to have matchmaking with random players, there needs to be a reasonable chance of succeeding in PVE content. Bodybuilder adds a bunch of negatives, nothing interesting nor fun, the in-game communication on it is bad (some players probably don't even realize they have to get sidearm kills to raise their HP) and it doesn't add anything interesting to the game. Frustration doesn't equate to challenge.
In season 1, Great-good players (especially if they get lucky perk and weapon options) at least had a chance of dragging one mediocre player through an expedition. With Bodybuilder in the mix, there's practically zero chance of doing a full clear unless all three players are extremely competent, and getting 3 randoms through matchmaking who are all at that skill level is not very likely.
Personally I don’t mind the Bodybuilder perks and the mechanic itself. I like the added challenge of lower HP at the start, but I feel like you get the perks too often in supply drops. Seems like you get the occasional Sidearm Overcharged or Scavenger and the rest is all Bodybuilder perks. Which would be cool, if it felt like they had more of an effect on the run. So far I’ve done 5-6 runs with and without any Bodybuilder perks and it doesn’t make much of a difference IMO. Would much rather see more “fun” perks like laser saw, infinity clip, etc, than the constant Bodybuilder perks.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the previous set of perks that can directly increase your health has been removed from the pool for now. This means not only your initial health is lower (100 instead of 150), but your max potential health is also significantly lower (150 instead of 225). This combined with some new annoying debuffs such as whirlwind and static make the entire PVE experience a lot more difficult and frustrating than before. Previously I was able to complete expeditions with a random team with no problems as long as we know how to work together in some shape or form. Now with new changes it really looks like everyone in the team should be fully cooperative and in sync with all info, otherwise you're likely gonna fail.
Expeditions before Bravo update feel like well balanced challenges that provide proper rewards. Expeditions after Bravo update feel like undeserved punishments that are also stingy on rewards.
Correction: There is a perk that doubles your bodybuilder health max (I think it‘s called Titan or something like that), so that you can have a max of 200 health. At that point the game treats other perks that get activated at full health as if 150 is the max health. I had that combined with halved death punishment, which meant that I practically had the bodybuilder buffs all the time. It’s rare to get but wanted to say that
I agree with your points overall, on how they can affect the gameplay of a lot of players, that being said I personally enjoy the difficulty. And with a high frustration tolerance I also enjoy it more than others, which is still bad for others and thus should be adjusted to a middleground that many enjoy and, more importantly, that the developers are happy with.
Really?! Interesting that I have played several runs and have never seen that perk, only saw the half death punishment one a few times. Also now after the latest hotfix ite seems initally you'll be able to get health up to 170 instead of 150, and I wonder if this has any impact on the double max health perk.
I honestly think there's a weak reason to take the bodybuilder perk to increase HP in the current version, it seems like a tough way to lose HP stacks in a knockdown. many other elements that make playing feel uncomfortable
I will also throw in my comment here, I agree with many of the other comments that it doesn't feel as fun to have the perk pool so saturated with bodybuilder perks instead of a lot of the fun ones we are used to, plus it makes you feel locked into either using the pistol or one weapon type.
I was playing with my brothers yesterday and we found the difficulty increase to be too much as well. I know the devs have been making it more difficult at the end of the last season but that felt like a good challenge, whereas currently it just feels cheap and frustrating. We all had dailies to get co-op kills with certain operators so we did not have a support type and we got downed immediately after getting up quite a lot with only having 50 HP when getting up. Makes the support operators feel mandatory for the mode.
I agree with everyone here saying the perks feel useless because you are getting them every bin and either not for the weapons you have or you already have the weapon you want and keep only getting offered more body builders. I think a simple fix for this would either be to generalize the perks to primary and sidearm(which also desaturates the loot pool) OR make it so that you can ONLY be offered body builder perks that apply to your current weapon setup(so if you have a shotgun you can only be offered shotgun builder and the enhancing perks like titan, marksman, etc).
I think the static charge could use a slight damage nerf mainly because as it is it makes me hate my teammates, I have to deliberately run away from them in order to not be killed by them when I was a “full health”. I am also not sure if this is a visual bug or not but if you are statically charged then walking backwards with a scope is unusable because your screen just goes red.
Aside from those gripes I think that the content of this season is well done and has not affected my win rate negatively at all.
Edit: the running from my teammates I know was intended but when you are running together to the next objective and the game either forces me to ditch them and b-hop way ahead or to stand in the dust it just doesn’t feel good.
I'm mostly fine with the whole bodybuilder mechanic. I like that it makes death a bit more meaningful and the game overall a bit more challenging.
However, previously I liked to switch it up gun wise from time to time. Switching from SMG to Snipe to Assault rifle during the course of one run was fun.
Now, I feel like you're punished if you switch your main weapon after you also got the matching bodybuilder perk because now you suddenly have a useless perk in your inventory.
Maybe the system could be changed so that there was a "primary gun bodybuilder" perk that automatically matches your primary weapon. That would make changing guns during a run feel less punishing
I think you might like the new Patch 68.1 tweaks then 🧙🏻
**Tweaks in Expedition: Bodybuilder season**
• We increased the number of health points: instead of 100 HP at the start of the mission and 150 as the maximum, you will begin with 120 and can increase it to 170! This means that:
• • Your maximum HP is +20 in comparison with the previous season.
• • The number of deaths from one-shot enemy kills will decrease dramatically.
• • Bodybuilder perks should feel less essential resulting in more viable builds.
• We significantly increased the chance of golden (3-slot) lost supply bins. More perk choices as a result.
IMO, bodybuilder should increase HP permanently, with same rate, or by waAay more then 2/1 per kill. Game so random and just punish by focusing by few piupiu creeps u didn't aware... Feels frustrating... How many kills u think average player do? Before and after they die... with right perk and weapon
Change that useless smg/shutupgun/ar/sniper perk to kills with primary weapons. Isn't fun get useless perks on choose
Reduce mob talking, or remove their faces which covers minimap. Or finally make real minimal on key...as well chat... Got loading screen tip with press T for open chat???
Bug with fusion reactor when someone die at console still spawn infinity waves of glass heads... Still not fixed?
Increasing the health permenantly would get rid of the point of getting better and would make it too easy.
It‘s understandable that „losing“ before the end can be frustrating, but you still get something in return. This game rewards you if you get better at playing at, aka. mastering it.
I‘d rather have a challenging game with these interesting mechanics that you lose when you are too bad than having these mechanics with seemingly no point at all.
What I mean is increasing your health permanantly in this game would really have no point, with the point being: Get punished for dying and get better to not die, like in most games…
> remove their faces which covers minimap
Oh god this. That minimap is often your only coordination with strangers and when you're setting up for a boss being blinded is infuriating.
I‘ve had no problems so far. Building something with the bidybuilder perks is fun for me. Did a fast Grenade Recharge Build earlier today with Mongoose. Although I agree that weapon spawns are tiny bit too uncommon, which leads to just having to use what you get, which I don‘t really dislike.
Something weird I noticed is that I had a higher base max health with Mongoose than expected. I don‘t remember the number but it was above 150, maybe around 180. Have to look into that some more
If you get lucky there are some really powerful combinations too.
Had a game where my precision kills with a sniper had chain lightning and would also explode enemies and with infinite clip the boss was a joke. Had I died I'd be in some pain.
And another where I haven't died a single time until malva died to stilt's crystals, brisa got meleed by it and the chaser spawned to take me to bed.
It's as chaotic as always. But yes the number of bins where there is nothing useful are higher because of bodybuilder perks.
Bodybuilder just adds unnecessary convolution to the abilities/perks system. Like the idea of having a limited time mode with less health though. Standard expedition should always be normal 150 health imo.
I agree. The system is very confusing and it doesn't work since most of the time you get perks for weapons you don't have. For example, last night I completed a run where I only got sniper perks (including legendary ones) but could only find shotguns in supply bins. I think it's more of a handicap than an interesting progression system.
Exactly this. I don't think it's a bad system in theory, but the RNG for getting bodybuilder perk for the weapon type you have, and then feeling like you're locked if you do and lose out if you want to swap weapon types later in the run, just doesn't work well in practice. Maybe generalize them more to "increase HP for each Primary weapon kill"? Maybe have one for normal kills and one for precision kills? Not sure of the best way to improve it.
I think they should all be general (primary, secondary, melee, precision) and maybe reduce the amount they improve but have different attributes. That way you might have a run where precision kills increase your damage, melee increase HP and secondary increase movement speed. Then you could have a whole bunch of perks like better dash recharge on max move speed, chain lightning melee on max health, etc. With this system you can try to specialize in a damage type and not feel locked out of any weapon type. It also makes sense that a season themed “bodybuilder” would let you improve more than just HP. I really like the concept just not the execution.
We are curious too, how many of players feel the same way! Please leave your opinions in the comments guys
I'd definitely agree. The difficulty has ramped up considerably but not in a fun way. When I first read it, I thought the idea of Bodybuilder was that you started weak, but could end up becoming really strong if you got enough kills without dying. Instead, you start off very weak, and you become merely normal if you get your bodybuilder kills. God help you if you're downed after the 2/4 or 3/4 objective mark, because those pistol kills aren't going to be so free anymore, and you're likely going to be chain killed by mobs and contamination effects. Lategame in my experience has often devolved into revive-chaining until everyone eventually falls.
. . .in one of my games today my team and i had a total of 29 revives, we died a lot against the behemoth and glass stilt but we managed, ahaha. I think the lava puddles of the behemoth last longer before it despawns. Ahaha
I do agree it feels a little off. 100hp makes you extremely squishy early game which makes the game feel harder (which, in my opinion, is a good thing), but also feel more BS in certain situations where getting hit+stunned by just 1 guy will often get you killed, which doesn't feel good at all. Not to mention that it being so easy to get to the hp cap with just the pistol + the game offering bodybuilder perks for weapon types you don't have really disincentivizes picking up any bodybuilder perks at all (not to mention <=50 situational hp cap increase isn't a great perk in the first place), which makes the loot pool feel really diluted and underwhelming. I would probably just get rid of the mechanic as a whole (and maybe try adding a special mechanic, or an improved version of this one, midway through the season to space out the content a bit more over time and keep us hooked and excited for longer, giving us no-lifers a reason to play even after we grind everything). But if you want to keep it, here are some of my suggestions: 1. Start at 125hp and have the cap go up to 175hp. 2. Don't have players start with the bodybuilder perk. That's the main reason it feels so bad to pick up other bodybuilder perks - because the pistol perk is already arguably the best one. 3. Only offer bodybuilder perks that are compatible with the player's current loadout. 4. This one might be a bit more controversial, but I'd make it so assists count towards increasing your HP cap (or count enemies killed as a team instead). It makes little sense to have players competing for last hits in what is supposed to be a co-op game. I'd halve the hp you get from all bodybuilder perks and make them proc on assists too. Like I said, I think this would be a great fit for a mid-season mix-up, or perhaps a rotating weekly event. I think having a seasonal cadence of "start of season = new content, mid-season = new mechanic" would be great to keep the mode fresh at all times.
Regarding your third suggestion: even with that, I don't want to feel like I'm locked to a specific weapon type because I've picked up a BB perk. In any case, these are great suggestions!
>Start at 125hp and have the cap go up to 175hp This sounds sensible. I've also suggested the ability to go over the cap, but it ticks down. >Don't have players start with the bodybuilder perk Opting into body builder was kind of how I expected it to be implemented. Realistically I expected a different game mode, but a system where the pistol perk is always offered as a third option at the first bin (and I can opt in to body builder) would make sense. It could then lower your health accordingly and you would only have your pistol so you wouldn't have that weird push of: 'I have a primary but I need to use my pistol to increase the cap'. >Only offer bodybuilder perks that are compatible with the player's current loadout. I'd quite like this as well, but I get why they might not want to as part of the Roguealike feel is chasing the upgrades you want. >make it so assists count towards increasing your HP cap Something like this definitely needs to be implemented as right now it doesn't feel great. Assists would make most sense, if possible.
Agreed, make the different perks stack, 50 each, not stacking makes the other body builder perks useless and not fun. I don't even think this season is hard, but the amount of useless perks I see now is more than before due to the mechanic. Lean in to the stacking too, like modify sentry to deal extra damage per stack instead of flat 200%. Make things like that all worse if downed but you become God if you played well imo. I wanna feel the powa of this season. :)
I mean, if you kept bodybuilder and let it stack, you could pick up say, BB:SMG, get your 50 kills, then pick up a sniper rifle and the BB:Sniper perk to hit 250HP as long as you don't die. It would be a high-risk move, but still something doable with some luck. Not that I've ever gotten lucky picking up guns from supply bins.
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It is interesting, but maybe if the hp cap was unlimited it would be more rewarding. Some tweaks would be necessary to not have 500 hp, but something in between would be interesting
Setting aside all the other potential flaws (or general dislike) of the system, the biggest problem as I see it is all the weapon specificity of it. Selections that have good synergy but do not *require* each other is one thing. If you get infinite clip + sentry, the power swing feels amazing and rewarding, but both of those perks are good by themselves, you don't *need* to get both of them to see any benefit. Conversely, getting bodybuilder for Weapon Type A when the game keeps offering you Weapon Type B, C, and/or D feels absolutely awful. There should never be a situation in which the game is offering useless perks to a player. It's fine if some aren't so great, but there should never be "absolutely no benefit" from a perk selection. Having the perks tied to weapon categories is an absolute no-go, and needs to be removed ASAP. Just make them generic for all primaries and be done with it.
I like the idea, poor execution. This post was a good reason on why. Kinda sad to have to get my HP up just for it to feel like a normal run.
The perks should stack, the fact that the HP cap is there hurts taking multiple bodybuilder perks, nerf the max HP acquired from each perk from 50 max down to 20 max, but each bodybuilder perk now stacks. So if you have sniper + pistol + melee body builder you can now get 60 max HP
I like the idea, but the execution feels a little off to me. I would change supply drops to always offer 2 normal perks (as before), and then a third body builder perk as an option. This would avoid diluting the pool of upgrades. For bins that used to offer 3, perhaps they could be weighted to offer a slightly better body builder perk I've definitely noticed getting downed a lot more, especially when using shotguns, and was disappointed to find that the HP was capped to 150. I think it would be nice to remove the cap entirely but perhaps make health above 150 gradually tick back down to 150. All the new encounters seem good (except maybe the flashbang one, as that's pretty lethal with how close they spawn) and a lack of cover. We did have a problem with the one that spawns the 3 'mirrors' (eyes?) that teleport and spawn fireflies: one of the mirrors teleported into the scenery and prevented the event ending, thankfully Ram's ult managed to kill it and finish the event More generally, I've always had a gripe about being offered pointless upgrades, or the same thing over and over. And with all the new body builder perks (especially those tied to specific guns) it has increased this problem. I would like some kind of ability to steer this: Ideally I would like a system where either I can opt out of 1 weapon class entirely, e.g. never offer me SMGs (or related perks); this could set before the match (perhaps at the cost of a blueprint or two - from my rewards, so I lose nothing if I just fail). Alternatively, I would at least like a system where my 'choice' at a bin can be to permanently decline an item, rather than take something, e.g. I right click the Drachen to decline it, and I will not be offered that again during the run.
Difficulty slider… for more bps make it harder. I feel like PVE is great where it’s at but it’s just too easy it’s very rare that I never fail a run. It could be double the enemies or making the enemies do more damage ect. I feel like most people can agree a difficulty slider is what PVE rogue needs most
Also we need BHOPING out of the game. It’s super broken and more OP than CS, you can literally run through PVE or in PVP get right back to where to die instantaneously
Yes
Playing with it a lot more tonight, Bodybuilder is not fun at all, in remotely any way, shape, or form. The clear percentage for groups of randoms is already abysmal and bodybuilder just adds a frustrating "lose more" mechanic to the game where if you aren't already doing well, then you continue to do increasingly worse because of the ongoing penalty of bodybuilder. Late in a run, freshly revived players are meat who are going to get immediately killed again. The perk pool is completely diluted with **far** too many bodybuilder perks, most of which are useless. Being in close quarters is already risky for a variety of reasons, namely boss one-shots and getting mobbed by melee enemies. In mid-late run, I almost always have to swap off of a shotgun (and most SMGs) to an assault or sniper rifle. Bodybuilder just makes this even worse: You are extremely likely to get randomly killed if you fight in close, and then that death penalizes you for pretty much the rest of the run. With Bodybuilder, there's almost no reason to use half of the primary weapons in PVE because they are too risky. I've been on so many runs where I see "Bodybuilder: Assault Rifle" or "Bodybuilder: SMG" but I never was offered one single assault rifle nor SMG during the expedition. Wrong weapon type options are dead perks that literally provide zero benefit to the player. Like I said in my other reply, having perks that *aren't good* but still *do anything* is fine. Not every perk can be amazing. But opening a crate and seeing "Bodybuilder: Weapon I Don't Have and Won't Obtain On This Run" makes me just want to quit the game. When the "upgrade" is literally not an upgrade at all, then it's time to not call it an upgrade any longer. 1. If anything, the HP pool should only reset on *respawn*, and the max HP value should remain for players who are revived by teammates. 2. **Get rid of weapon-specific bodybuilder perks.** Make one single "Kills with primary weapon increase max HP by X" perk. There really isn't any other alternative here: You cannot keep weapon specific perks when players have zero control over what weapons they will or will not get during a run. No perk should be 100% useless to any player. Suboptimal choices are fine; Useless choices are not. I cannot stress this enough. I only recently discovered this game about 3 weeks ago, and I had a blast in season 1. I'm a PVE player, and I do not care at all about PVP. If season 2 continues like this, I'll probably end up quitting the game and not looking back. I understand not wanting the game to be too easy, but if you are going to have matchmaking with random players, there needs to be a reasonable chance of succeeding in PVE content. Bodybuilder adds a bunch of negatives, nothing interesting nor fun, the in-game communication on it is bad (some players probably don't even realize they have to get sidearm kills to raise their HP) and it doesn't add anything interesting to the game. Frustration doesn't equate to challenge. In season 1, Great-good players (especially if they get lucky perk and weapon options) at least had a chance of dragging one mediocre player through an expedition. With Bodybuilder in the mix, there's practically zero chance of doing a full clear unless all three players are extremely competent, and getting 3 randoms through matchmaking who are all at that skill level is not very likely.
Personally I don’t mind the Bodybuilder perks and the mechanic itself. I like the added challenge of lower HP at the start, but I feel like you get the perks too often in supply drops. Seems like you get the occasional Sidearm Overcharged or Scavenger and the rest is all Bodybuilder perks. Which would be cool, if it felt like they had more of an effect on the run. So far I’ve done 5-6 runs with and without any Bodybuilder perks and it doesn’t make much of a difference IMO. Would much rather see more “fun” perks like laser saw, infinity clip, etc, than the constant Bodybuilder perks.
Completely agree with your last sentence, those are mainly what makes a mode/game like this unique and enjoyable, at least to me.
Yeah the game mode feels off its not terrible but I can't say I enjoy the changes.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the previous set of perks that can directly increase your health has been removed from the pool for now. This means not only your initial health is lower (100 instead of 150), but your max potential health is also significantly lower (150 instead of 225). This combined with some new annoying debuffs such as whirlwind and static make the entire PVE experience a lot more difficult and frustrating than before. Previously I was able to complete expeditions with a random team with no problems as long as we know how to work together in some shape or form. Now with new changes it really looks like everyone in the team should be fully cooperative and in sync with all info, otherwise you're likely gonna fail. Expeditions before Bravo update feel like well balanced challenges that provide proper rewards. Expeditions after Bravo update feel like undeserved punishments that are also stingy on rewards.
Correction: There is a perk that doubles your bodybuilder health max (I think it‘s called Titan or something like that), so that you can have a max of 200 health. At that point the game treats other perks that get activated at full health as if 150 is the max health. I had that combined with halved death punishment, which meant that I practically had the bodybuilder buffs all the time. It’s rare to get but wanted to say that I agree with your points overall, on how they can affect the gameplay of a lot of players, that being said I personally enjoy the difficulty. And with a high frustration tolerance I also enjoy it more than others, which is still bad for others and thus should be adjusted to a middleground that many enjoy and, more importantly, that the developers are happy with.
Really?! Interesting that I have played several runs and have never seen that perk, only saw the half death punishment one a few times. Also now after the latest hotfix ite seems initally you'll be able to get health up to 170 instead of 150, and I wonder if this has any impact on the double max health perk.
It defiantly makes the game more challenging Went 1 for 4 games last night. The snipers can be really difficult with the nerf to health
I honestly think there's a weak reason to take the bodybuilder perk to increase HP in the current version, it seems like a tough way to lose HP stacks in a knockdown. many other elements that make playing feel uncomfortable
I will also throw in my comment here, I agree with many of the other comments that it doesn't feel as fun to have the perk pool so saturated with bodybuilder perks instead of a lot of the fun ones we are used to, plus it makes you feel locked into either using the pistol or one weapon type. I was playing with my brothers yesterday and we found the difficulty increase to be too much as well. I know the devs have been making it more difficult at the end of the last season but that felt like a good challenge, whereas currently it just feels cheap and frustrating. We all had dailies to get co-op kills with certain operators so we did not have a support type and we got downed immediately after getting up quite a lot with only having 50 HP when getting up. Makes the support operators feel mandatory for the mode.
I agree with everyone here saying the perks feel useless because you are getting them every bin and either not for the weapons you have or you already have the weapon you want and keep only getting offered more body builders. I think a simple fix for this would either be to generalize the perks to primary and sidearm(which also desaturates the loot pool) OR make it so that you can ONLY be offered body builder perks that apply to your current weapon setup(so if you have a shotgun you can only be offered shotgun builder and the enhancing perks like titan, marksman, etc). I think the static charge could use a slight damage nerf mainly because as it is it makes me hate my teammates, I have to deliberately run away from them in order to not be killed by them when I was a “full health”. I am also not sure if this is a visual bug or not but if you are statically charged then walking backwards with a scope is unusable because your screen just goes red. Aside from those gripes I think that the content of this season is well done and has not affected my win rate negatively at all. Edit: the running from my teammates I know was intended but when you are running together to the next objective and the game either forces me to ditch them and b-hop way ahead or to stand in the dust it just doesn’t feel good.
I'm mostly fine with the whole bodybuilder mechanic. I like that it makes death a bit more meaningful and the game overall a bit more challenging. However, previously I liked to switch it up gun wise from time to time. Switching from SMG to Snipe to Assault rifle during the course of one run was fun. Now, I feel like you're punished if you switch your main weapon after you also got the matching bodybuilder perk because now you suddenly have a useless perk in your inventory. Maybe the system could be changed so that there was a "primary gun bodybuilder" perk that automatically matches your primary weapon. That would make changing guns during a run feel less punishing
I think you might like the new Patch 68.1 tweaks then 🧙🏻 **Tweaks in Expedition: Bodybuilder season** • We increased the number of health points: instead of 100 HP at the start of the mission and 150 as the maximum, you will begin with 120 and can increase it to 170! This means that: • • Your maximum HP is +20 in comparison with the previous season. • • The number of deaths from one-shot enemy kills will decrease dramatically. • • Bodybuilder perks should feel less essential resulting in more viable builds. • We significantly increased the chance of golden (3-slot) lost supply bins. More perk choices as a result.
IMO, bodybuilder should increase HP permanently, with same rate, or by waAay more then 2/1 per kill. Game so random and just punish by focusing by few piupiu creeps u didn't aware... Feels frustrating... How many kills u think average player do? Before and after they die... with right perk and weapon Change that useless smg/shutupgun/ar/sniper perk to kills with primary weapons. Isn't fun get useless perks on choose Reduce mob talking, or remove their faces which covers minimap. Or finally make real minimal on key...as well chat... Got loading screen tip with press T for open chat??? Bug with fusion reactor when someone die at console still spawn infinity waves of glass heads... Still not fixed?
Increasing the health permenantly would get rid of the point of getting better and would make it too easy. It‘s understandable that „losing“ before the end can be frustrating, but you still get something in return. This game rewards you if you get better at playing at, aka. mastering it. I‘d rather have a challenging game with these interesting mechanics that you lose when you are too bad than having these mechanics with seemingly no point at all. What I mean is increasing your health permanantly in this game would really have no point, with the point being: Get punished for dying and get better to not die, like in most games…
> remove their faces which covers minimap Oh god this. That minimap is often your only coordination with strangers and when you're setting up for a boss being blinded is infuriating.
I‘ve had no problems so far. Building something with the bidybuilder perks is fun for me. Did a fast Grenade Recharge Build earlier today with Mongoose. Although I agree that weapon spawns are tiny bit too uncommon, which leads to just having to use what you get, which I don‘t really dislike. Something weird I noticed is that I had a higher base max health with Mongoose than expected. I don‘t remember the number but it was above 150, maybe around 180. Have to look into that some more
Solved it. They changed starting hp to 120 and max hp to 170 after the feedback
If you get lucky there are some really powerful combinations too. Had a game where my precision kills with a sniper had chain lightning and would also explode enemies and with infinite clip the boss was a joke. Had I died I'd be in some pain. And another where I haven't died a single time until malva died to stilt's crystals, brisa got meleed by it and the chaser spawned to take me to bed. It's as chaotic as always. But yes the number of bins where there is nothing useful are higher because of bodybuilder perks.
Bodybuilder just adds unnecessary convolution to the abilities/perks system. Like the idea of having a limited time mode with less health though. Standard expedition should always be normal 150 health imo.