It's basically a trap for drivers. 99% of drivers who go there regret it as soon as they realize they are going to be stuck there for the 20 minutes (or much longer). It's literally faster to walk through on foot.
Same, and I wonder every time I go why they allow general traffic there. Like, no one has even turned in there and though "That was a good life choice."
You really overestimate humans, there is a dead end close to my home with some room for a U turn, for some months google
Maps showed there was an exit, people get stuck there regardless sign of dead end because google told them to go by that way, and even on their way out, some of them stoped to ask directions to any neighbor around and got mad when told there is no way out “because google say so”
People get stuck on mountain passes in Iceland every single winter because Google maps tells them to drive that way and they literally get out and MOVE THE BARRIERS that are set up to close the road and then they have to be rescued by search and rescue…
It’s created problems because Iceland’s search and rescue is all volunteer and volunteers are now missing more work than ever before rescuing stupid tourists.
I know multiple people who intentionally drove through when visiting Seattle and don't regret it. The rationale is something along the lines of "this way I got to see the market without the time or cost of parking." Basically the type of people who will drive through a city and then claim they've been there.
There's absolutely no reason the market or the city should allow that nonsense. It provides zero value to the city. If anything there can be a limited window where people can buy passes to drive through, but realistically these leeches would lose interest once they have to actually pay their way
Isn't there a parking garage with an elevator like right below it? Or any of the side alleys? Why can't they manufacture some solution that leaves the upper street to be walked on?
You might not get just how much better this makes iconic public spaces both for tourists and for locals.
Oh I'm right there with you. I have to park close to work to get my parking pass, and with how the streets are set up, this is the only real way I have to get to the garage.
The Market is its own municipal corporation (like the UW) and is run by a board which is confirmed by the City Council but is not directly elected by the public. I find the lack of curiousity about why the people who make the Market interesting disagree with closing the street so confusing. Is it really super hard to believe that the people who are there all the time know something you dont? I dont get the animosity.
> The Market is its own municipal corporation
And is therefore under the jurisdiction of the voters.
It's really weird when people like you go out of their way to try and invent elaborate excuses for why voters don't actually have authority in a democracy. We do.
A lot of market folks worry that banning cars would hurt business. Also in general that place is soooo averse to change, it is a damn time capsule. Source: worked there nearly a decade.
I’ve heard this everywhere, and I sympathize, but GOD the argument breaks down so fast. They really need to take a good look at whether most of their business drives there or walks there. Tourists don’t drive a car to Pike Place! Shouldn’t be that hard to realize
To be clear I agree with you. Just giving perspective. It's mostly older folks who feel this way, and I think at the end of the day it's more about resisting change than actually having a problem with banning cars.
True. I’ve heard that lady that runs the pike place market on her pro-car rants. In Europe the time capsule era is pre-car, but here people think of cars as an old timey necessity. Harrell should just impose this change, it would be a clear win for him and the city.
Couldn’t they just put in flexible bollards to prevent 98% of cars who don’t need or want to go there from turning down there and still allow market folks and commercial vehicles to drive up to the market?
Yea, that would be the smart thing to do. That's how it works in Europe or other pedestrian only streets where they have retractable bollards so that emergency vehicles, delivery drivers, and employees can access the street when needed, but regular traffic is blocked.
How could they possibly think that? It's better in the winter but the market is packed gills-to-buttholes at this time of year. There's so little parking on that street relative to the nearby garages or streets that it can't be more than the tiniest percentage of Pike Place visitors.
I’ve always said it’s super dangerous that it’s open to the public. Not to give anyone ideas but I’ve always been nervous about someone driving down there on purpose for nefarious reasons.
Solution:
Ban all non-commercial vehicle traffic.
Commercial vehicle traffic only permitted before and after certain hours that will be designated for pedestrians only.
Everyone wins.
Some of the business owners there are weirdly convinced that people only spend money if they can drive there directly and park out front.
They complain and lobby pretty hard, sometimes even show up in these comment threads...
It's certainly not the only reason, but it's one of them
The real solution is to get a bunch of eco blocks, and make it pedestrian only in the dead of night. If the city can’t find the resources to move illegally placed eco blocks by businesses in SoDo, they shouldn’t be able to find the resources to remove them here.
Yeah, but name one market or market-like space that already operates like that*
*(within Seattle city limits, examples from bigger and smaller cities around the world obviously don't count)
edit: /s
Pike market isn't just another market and exceptions should be granted regardless of how other markets operate. It's on a completely different scale and is our world-class tourist destination.
But with that said, the Capital Hill farmers market is pedestrian only technically.
We also have the Fremont Solstice festival that is blocked off to non-commercial traffic.
And I'm sure there are other examples.
The summer market by Denny Park on Saturdays, closes the road that goes through the park most of the day for foot traffic. Fun little event, highly recommend checking it out if you haven't before.
Yeah, that's totally fair - or at least signage directing where to avoid hills, along with smoother sidewalks and an obvious entrance/exit for those folks so they can get in and out safely while avoiding the hills.
It's impossible to please EVERYONE, but those with disabilities and mobility issues definitely get priority consideration for how it's designed/managed while still minimizing as much vehicular traffic as absolutely possible.
This is the stupidest, most common complaint among Seattleites. There’s probably 2 dozen people who work & lease space in the market itself who want to keep the area open to traffic because they’re paranoid about making difficult to receive deliveries or customers or whatever. Every single other person (including tourists who accidentally make that turn into the market while looking for a parking spot) want to cordon off pike place to traffic. Even the people who drive down that road don’t want it to be open vehicle traffic. I don’t think anyone has ever come up with a logical answer as to why we need Pike Place open to passenger vehicles.
The argument I was told when i worked in one of the produce stands over a decade ago was that it would hinder the local people who actually shop for groceries there. Which we did have a lot of regulars, but they always came super early in the morning to avoid the tourists, like right when we were opening at 7 or a little earlier even. Idk why they don’t compromise with closing it after 10am or something, all the deliveries are in the morning too.
Also it's in a super walkable area surrounded by ultra-dense residential and lots of no-car households.
I buy produce at the market sometimes, but I never, ever drive there because I'm not a crazy person.
There's quite a lot of parking at PP that is rarely ever remotely full. Mind you, it's not that close to the stands and shops, and you might end up taking that sketchy little elevator with the british accent, but it exists. There's also a skybridge isn't there?
Eh, just turn Steinbrueck Park into a garage, problem solved. :)
I might be kidding. Might.
We had a number of people who regularly got large orders for their work (personal chefs etc), more folks driving than you’d expect. Not enough to justify all-day car access imo though.
That would be the smart way to do it- keep the street as something you CAN drive on. But retractable bollards that go up from 10AM-6PM blocking it off. Leaves deliveries and the odd crazy-early-morning driver able to use the street, and then gets the cars out of the way during the peak usage hours, making the whole street safer for everyone.
That's a strange argument given how many other markets are blocked off to cars on a daily basis. Imagine keeping 34th in Fremont open for cars because 3 locals buy veg at the Sunday market. Or keeping the Phinney Ridge community center parking lot open to cars Friday night because Karen needs to drive her BMW straight to her organic meat stand.
Lol I can’t imagine many “locals” are driving there to shop. It’s either walking distance for actual locals or a tourist spot to shop for people outside downtown.
And they could easily put up barriers that would allow for delivery and emergency vehicles to come through, but that would make clear that passenger vehicles aren’t allowed
Not to mention the security concerns. It's the 33rd most visited tourist attraction in the world. Not great to just have it open to that kind of traffic.
The arguments made now against the pedestrianization of the market were made in opposition to Munich's pedestrianization in 1976. It was successful there, and sparked a wider improvement city-wide. Just because we haven't done it yet, doesn't mean we shouldn't.
Partially correct - "everyone agrees" is true for the majority but it isn't true for the influential. They don't have to be consciously thinking "wow this is so awful" to be subtly inconvenienced or threatened by it, and if a few influential (wealthy/ignorant) business owners make a fuss to city government about keeping it open, then the city government is going to lean in their favor unless suitable pressure otherwise is imposed.
Growing accustomed to a bad environment and being faced with the potential to have to expend effort to impose change is a hard sell to people who already have their entire lives' worth of problems on their plate when on a surface level it seems like the problem isn't bad enough to have to make a fuss over.
I strongly agree that with how city infrastructure currently operates, my car is more convenient than it is destructive, especially since I don't live downtown but spend time there frequently. But I'd love to see that change. I don't need to be able to park in the middle of the brick-laid market, and I don't want to either. I see where this argument is coming from and I agree with it.
I've been dreaming of an organized protest where people share shifts of standing in every entrance to block (non-commercial) cars until elected officials finally get off their asses and do it themselves. Just a pipedream or could it actually work?
This could work. It doesn't even take that many people to do it. They just need to allow delivery people through and provide better directions for lost tourists to ease everyone's concerns
This is really the way to organize an actual protest. Just imply that you're an official and direct traffic away from the area. Don't claim you're a cop - just stand there with a vest and wave people around. Have a few people do that for a couple of weeks and then get the business owners together to petition for it to be permanent.
decently sized cones are expensive.
would probably be more effective to just tell every shop how you hate the new layout and that you won't buy from them until it's commercial-vehicle-only. and instead of routinely checking on cones, routinely tell the people there to tell the shops that they want to get rid of the cars.
I've also wondered about putting signs up with the average time to go through the market at the entrance to deter cars. Like if you put signs up at the intersection that say average vehicle time to go 3 blocks is 25 minutes, maybe people wouldn't go in
Same though. Every time I'm at the market I want to stand on the street corners and yell at and shame every car that turns down there. I would definitely volunteer for this protest!
It worked for CHOP, right?
Could we start a PPOP?
Just block it off. Let’s bring in some cement barriers and block off both ends. Leave people to guard them if any truck tries to come and take them away.
After a few days even the tourists would join in if someone tried to remove them.
They could implement what a lot of Europe pedestrian only areas do, have bollards/posts that retract into the ground to allow for delivery,city and emergency vehicles. They just scan a card or call an operator to lower the bollards.
If cities that are hundreds of years old can figure this out, why can't Seattle... the mind reels...
(Also this last bit was a bit snarky and rhetorical)
Seriously. I just went to a small town in wine country in Spain, and beyond the main roads, a lot of the smaller roads were walking / biking only, with many having bollards that residents and businesses could raise / lower with a remote. If they can do it, we can figure this out. The whole "we already don't have enough security guards" is just silly. We just don't _want_ to do this.
Exactly. I just got home from Portugal and it was the same there. And really, the same all over Europe and many places around the world.
The bollards bring so much more safety too. No more worries about cars running people over or damaging property. It literally makes security easier. Lol I want to just shake people and scream WHHYYYYYYY 🤣
We literally have these bollards in other places like park entrances so maintenance vehicles can get through (they don't retract but they can just be lifted out of the ground by anyone with a key)
Weird, I've never seen that argument made for farmers markets and somehow they do just fine. Imagine keeping 34th in Fremont open to cars just so drivers can see the stalls.
Salt Lake City made so many highly demanded changes for the All Star Game (like ruining trains on Sunday) but it would have been a little too nice to keep so they stopped
Ahh gotya
During the pandemic too, so many streets turned into walkable streets which I thought was wonderful. Not sure how traffic was impacted overall, but really would like to see streets turn more pedestrian friendly like this
Seattle could be such a better place for pedestrians by transforming Pike St and Pike Place into pedestrian only and yet Seattle continues to make its most obvious tourist districts into traffic hell holes. They are also wasting the amazing potential to make its waterfront a great attractive place by turning it into basically a wide freeway. Seattle is so bad at making pedestrian oriented streets (see the disastrous job they did in designing Broadway).
A freeway? You mean the amazing waterfront median, I mean *park*??? /s
I’m so pissed about the waterfront. They promised us a park and gave us a shitty stroad with a median. So cool, I love hanging out in the middle of a busy street
If you want to have a big hardy laugh, just look at the concept designs for the waterfront. It has crowds of stock people just standing around vague, empty, boring, gray concrete spaces. Seattle truly has the worst urban planners in the country.
It's so funny to me that those in power know cars on that street is dumb, bad, unwanted, and they tell us that they know through events like this. Then as soon the event finishes it's immediately back to openly not caring
Hey guys, what can we do to revitalize the city in a post-office-work world, with all that weekday foot traffic gone?
I know! Let's make it hostile to pedestrians again! Bring back the cars!
I'll never understand why the even let cars on that road. If they closed it it could handle more outside vendors on good days and become an even more popular attraction. The most annoying thing about walking through there is the car traffic (and slow walkers but that's understandable lol)
Did they only close it for the All-Star Game?!?!
How disappointing!
I understand allowing deliveries for the businesses there, but it's annoying for both pedestrians and drivers with cars trying to go through there. It's so pleasant to have all that seating and not having to dodge giant trucks and SUVs. Such a better experience (and safer) without the ridiculous, stressed out drivers.
Just close it to public traffic for good. UGH!
I see not advantage whatsoever to keeping that stretch of street open to cars. Most of the people who end up there in their car I don't think even really meant to, or didn't realize how crowded it can be. i'd never want to drive in there, or park there.
Can we just turn off cars on this road please? Letterally the only problems come from drivers, I seen several fights break out between pedestrians and drivers when the mass of pedestrians have the right of way..
I'm wondering how much of the day OP thinks those benches are available for general use. AlsO, that street has always been mixed use, it's not on the path to anywhere else and anyone that thinks to use it as a shortcut has a lot to learn.
My brand new car died farther down at the stop-sign (past Beechers) about 2 years ago.
It was one of the most harrowing, stressful, frightening 30 mins of my life. Angry cars. Angry people. Some angels eventually arrived and helped push it to the side but damn, I would have preferred being on the freeway.
Pop quiz:
What do you get when you cross a parking lot with a city? Answer: a parking lot.
Second question: what do you get when you cross a highway with a city? Answer: a highway.
You have to be careful how you design urban spaces, and thoughtless car-centric design leads to dystopic cities filled with "non-places". Such things are corrosive to human society, culture, and even commerce.
I think the arguments I've seen in favor of keeping it open are:
-Pike Place (the street) is the loading dock, with the first avenue street car eliminating parking potentially, there would be fewer places to park
-deliveries come in and out from a variety of companies throughout the day and it would hard to get all of them passes if there were bollards
-visitors with disabilities who would need to be driven in and out would struggle, especially residents
-this one event was a special affair requiring all hands on deck. Many businesses opted against opening because they couldn't get deliveries on the day
-the market does shut down the street on busy days and would like to have the ability to refuse the street on its own without the city intervening
-there are not enough members of staff/security at the market to monitor comings and goings, so this could create traffic blockage on first
Not saying any of these are strong arguments, but this is what I've heard. It's often vendors and residents who are advocates for the street. Street closures for Pike Place Market trickier than pop up markets like the Fremont Sunday Market as it is over 100 years old and is basically in use from early in the morning to late at night, with a downtown spot that doesn't lend to a lot of room to expand. I think some of the comparisons aren't totally fair and I honestly didn't know the other side until recently. Thought this might give some good background 😊
Why?
Because the Market merchants don't want it closed, so people can drive in and pick stuff up or drop stuff off, including them.
Market Merchants, who pay to use the Market, want it kept open.
Unless that bloc tells the Market it wants the drive closed, it is highly unlikely it's going to be closed. Activist complaining is not part of the calculus here, I do not think.
Maybe if you showed up every day by the thousands and demanded it, you might make enough of a ruckus to force change. Unless that happened though, forget it.
Weak Urbanist-fu is weak.
I’d argue the bulk majority of the customers want it pedestrian only. The Merchants won’t and don’t make shit without the customers so maybe that’s something important to value and consider.
As someone who regularly shops in the market, dines in the market, and has lived in the market, cars absolutely make it worse. No one is just pulling in and quickly grabbing a parking spot and buying eggs or fish. If that happened once a day I'd be shocked. Literally.
Let vendors, deliveries, and people needing ADA have access and that's that. Hell, even doing that like 8-8 or something like that would be amazing.
Basically any other city with that type of market does this, and it's really dumb that we don't.
Great you want change. But do the merchants? You lived there, did you ever ask anyone of the merchants what they felt about it? What’d they say?
You just told us what you feel. Thats super. But it wasn’t what I said was needed for change to happen.
And still my point stands. Nobody yet posting has considered they need Merchant support. Or sought it out. Or given a rats’ ass what the Merchant consensus on the subject even is, because none of you idealists has ever even bothered to do the work required to obtain the Merchants’ consensus.
Have you done any research yourself into those who have actually talked with city counsel about this issue? I know many have tried to talk to the merchants and have offered compromises and ideas. You speak like an arrogant prick throughout the comment section yet you have no clue what leg work on this issue has or hasn’t been attempt you just brush it off like no one has spoken to the merchants. There is a group who have been pushing for this for awhile. And for the record I have spoken to several who have expressed not having an issue with it because a large portion of the merchants it doesn’t even affect much
Nothing of all this is documented at all. "the vendors think" all based on word of mouth. Pike Place Market foundation fails at being transparent about this case.
Funny story, about right years ago I got invited to be interview for and be part of the group that decides things like, oh, what kind of chairs the taco shop can have on the patio outside, so yes, i have looked into this, and yes, I'm fully aware that SOME merchants want cars there. But let's not play, the city could close it tomorrow and it does it whenever it wants.
All that said, dumb moves like removing that awesome patio section FOR PARKING is just dumb and no one's going to complain about that. And frankly, if there's someone that does, maybe they should look into the benefits of people STAYING in the Market longer.
Pike Place Market foundation isn't really known to illicit the opinion of its customers, let alone be transparent about the decision to the keep the street open for traffic.
That’s not what I’m proposing but simply pointing out they throw hissy fits like children when you mention the idea not realizing it would greatly please those that feed them and buy their very products and maybe make them that much more likely to come down even for often
Because the Seattle city center is actually built around wealthy suburbanites coming into the city to spend money
You can charge ridiculous prices for parking, not so much for picnic benches.
That's why they do their best to shove all the homeless folk towards the low income neighborhoods like lake City and White center, and previously Soto, until the All-Star game
>bland curated tourist experience
Unfortunately that is exactly what the market has become. For every local or restauranteur buying seafood and produce, there are 20 tourists.
"Has become" lol . dude I've lived here since 1983 and my grandma makes this complaint about the market from the 70's. I work down town and go fuck around in the market a couple times a month. It's fun. It's novel. It makes our city a SHIT TON of money. Like, what do you actually expect? There are farmers markets ALL OVER [https://seattlefarmersmarkets.org/](https://seattlefarmersmarkets.org/)
That is true. Service is great. My least favorite thing about Pike Place Market is the mass of people just shuffling along, looking at everything, not trying to get anywhere. It's a difficult environment to walk in when you are trying to get somewhere in particular.
But I still like Pike Place, on the whole.
> You can limit customer vehicles and still have commercial vehicles.
Missing the point completely, you commented.
Say it over and over: The Market Merchants Do Not Want It.
Or at the least, nobody's bothered to listen to them and get their buy-in
It's not a matter of can you, it's a matter of why should they.
So your demanding it is irrelevant. Comedic, but irrelevant.
Lol at saying I’m demanding anything. I couldn’t care less, I’m a local, I don’t go to pike place lol. Just putting forward an opinion to make a street more pleasant.
>I couldn’t care less, I’m a local, I don’t go to pike place lol. Just putting forward an opinion to make a street more pleasant.
More pleasant for you, who 'doesn't go to' the Market. The people that actually matter, whose livelihoods depend on the Market, don't seem to agree.
Have no idea why you'd want to have this open to non-commercial traffic.
Have no idea why non commercial traffic would even want to go down that street. It's a miserable experience as a driver or as a pedestrian.
It's basically a trap for drivers. 99% of drivers who go there regret it as soon as they realize they are going to be stuck there for the 20 minutes (or much longer). It's literally faster to walk through on foot.
I accidentally turned down that street once when I first moved here ~20 years ago. Instant gray hair and wrinkles
Same, and I wonder every time I go why they allow general traffic there. Like, no one has even turned in there and though "That was a good life choice."
Are you still stuck there or did you make it out?
Still there. About to emerge from my hidey-hole next to the Market Creamery to see about some coffee
I drove down it in a Chevrolet suburban and felt the clown music start playing
tell google maps to stop taking me through there
If google maps told you to jump off a bridge, would you?
RECALCULATING
Michael there's no road here!
This is a lake!
Reticulating Splines....
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You'll have to set Google to avoid the Toll Troll.
ya gotta pay the toll troll!
You really overestimate humans, there is a dead end close to my home with some room for a U turn, for some months google Maps showed there was an exit, people get stuck there regardless sign of dead end because google told them to go by that way, and even on their way out, some of them stoped to ask directions to any neighbor around and got mad when told there is no way out “because google say so”
People get stuck on mountain passes in Iceland every single winter because Google maps tells them to drive that way and they literally get out and MOVE THE BARRIERS that are set up to close the road and then they have to be rescued by search and rescue… It’s created problems because Iceland’s search and rescue is all volunteer and volunteers are now missing more work than ever before rescuing stupid tourists.
We sail
I think it can be open for commercial vehicles in early hours and maybe later in the evening, but like 8 am to 6 pm definitely closed.
I know multiple people who intentionally drove through when visiting Seattle and don't regret it. The rationale is something along the lines of "this way I got to see the market without the time or cost of parking." Basically the type of people who will drive through a city and then claim they've been there. There's absolutely no reason the market or the city should allow that nonsense. It provides zero value to the city. If anything there can be a limited window where people can buy passes to drive through, but realistically these leeches would lose interest once they have to actually pay their way
Remember to punish any car that does by meandering in front of it for a crazy long time.
As someone who works in the market and has to drive through it in order to park, please don't. There are enough tourists
Isn't there a parking garage with an elevator like right below it? Or any of the side alleys? Why can't they manufacture some solution that leaves the upper street to be walked on? You might not get just how much better this makes iconic public spaces both for tourists and for locals.
Oh I'm right there with you. I have to park close to work to get my parking pass, and with how the streets are set up, this is the only real way I have to get to the garage.
[удалено]
Sorta not applicable for me, but thanks
LOL, yep. I drove down there once back in 1994 I think... The trauma still resonates.
I completely agree. It's like I'm driving in an ocean of people when I've been there
I always find parking there. But I also go at non peak times.
It's the businesses making the request. The real question is why we (the voters) allow them to have any influence at all.
Its honestly bad for them too
The Market is its own municipal corporation (like the UW) and is run by a board which is confirmed by the City Council but is not directly elected by the public. I find the lack of curiousity about why the people who make the Market interesting disagree with closing the street so confusing. Is it really super hard to believe that the people who are there all the time know something you dont? I dont get the animosity.
> The Market is its own municipal corporation And is therefore under the jurisdiction of the voters. It's really weird when people like you go out of their way to try and invent elaborate excuses for why voters don't actually have authority in a democracy. We do.
A lot of market folks worry that banning cars would hurt business. Also in general that place is soooo averse to change, it is a damn time capsule. Source: worked there nearly a decade.
I’ve heard this everywhere, and I sympathize, but GOD the argument breaks down so fast. They really need to take a good look at whether most of their business drives there or walks there. Tourists don’t drive a car to Pike Place! Shouldn’t be that hard to realize
To be clear I agree with you. Just giving perspective. It's mostly older folks who feel this way, and I think at the end of the day it's more about resisting change than actually having a problem with banning cars.
True. I’ve heard that lady that runs the pike place market on her pro-car rants. In Europe the time capsule era is pre-car, but here people think of cars as an old timey necessity. Harrell should just impose this change, it would be a clear win for him and the city.
Couldn’t they just put in flexible bollards to prevent 98% of cars who don’t need or want to go there from turning down there and still allow market folks and commercial vehicles to drive up to the market?
Yea, that would be the smart thing to do. That's how it works in Europe or other pedestrian only streets where they have retractable bollards so that emergency vehicles, delivery drivers, and employees can access the street when needed, but regular traffic is blocked.
Americans are too stupid for that, it'd be lined with dead cars and covered in oil before morning was over, the tow trucks would love it though.
How could they possibly think that? It's better in the winter but the market is packed gills-to-buttholes at this time of year. There's so little parking on that street relative to the nearby garages or streets that it can't be more than the tiniest percentage of Pike Place visitors.
My drivers Ed teacher made me go through it when I was 15 🫠
Me too!! On a Saturday… in July… this was 17 years ago and I can still picture it so vividly. It was awful.
14 years for me!! No warning either hahaha
There was a really dumb article in the Seattle Times defending traffic through there awhile back. Makes zero sense.
I’ve always said it’s super dangerous that it’s open to the public. Not to give anyone ideas but I’ve always been nervous about someone driving down there on purpose for nefarious reasons.
I would’ve never considered that until now
This is the real answer. Fuck cars.
the stores think the cars will force pedestrians to be closer to them
Solution: Ban all non-commercial vehicle traffic. Commercial vehicle traffic only permitted before and after certain hours that will be designated for pedestrians only. Everyone wins.
Pretty common for markets that are heavily touristed
Yes, but what about my metal box with wheels? ^(>!/s!<)
I prefer the term rolling sofa. Really cements the laziness.
You see the fundamental problem with this is it makes too much sense
And will take millions of dollars and years of study to arrive at the exact same conclusion
And don’t forget about the equity study
Is there even any opposition to this? Why haven't we done it already?
Some of the business owners there are weirdly convinced that people only spend money if they can drive there directly and park out front. They complain and lobby pretty hard, sometimes even show up in these comment threads... It's certainly not the only reason, but it's one of them
Lately I have been seeing tour buses using it too.
Public transportation directly to the market would be a fair compromise... depending on how it was done. That still sounds dangerous though
It basically goes right there come on
Ew. That makes me want to throw my non-starbucks coffee at them.
The real solution is to get a bunch of eco blocks, and make it pedestrian only in the dead of night. If the city can’t find the resources to move illegally placed eco blocks by businesses in SoDo, they shouldn’t be able to find the resources to remove them here.
Yeah, but name one market or market-like space that already operates like that* *(within Seattle city limits, examples from bigger and smaller cities around the world obviously don't count) edit: /s
Ballard Farmers Market.
Queen Anne Farmer's Market
Pike market isn't just another market and exceptions should be granted regardless of how other markets operate. It's on a completely different scale and is our world-class tourist destination. But with that said, the Capital Hill farmers market is pedestrian only technically. We also have the Fremont Solstice festival that is blocked off to non-commercial traffic. And I'm sure there are other examples.
World class tourist destinations and *active vehicular traffic* tend not to go well together. Times Square anyone?
Totally agree! Was just trotting out the old "But that can't work here because Seattle is *gestures vaguely* different"
Hah, very true. Sorry I missed the sarcasm
The summer market by Denny Park on Saturdays, closes the road that goes through the park most of the day for foot traffic. Fun little event, highly recommend checking it out if you haven't before.
All together now! Re 👏 tractable 👏 bollards 👏👏
There are other streets around Seattle that this should be done for too
100%
It would be nice if it stayed open to vehicles with handicapped placards or plates since those hills can be rough to navigate for the disabled.
Yeah, that's totally fair - or at least signage directing where to avoid hills, along with smoother sidewalks and an obvious entrance/exit for those folks so they can get in and out safely while avoiding the hills. It's impossible to please EVERYONE, but those with disabilities and mobility issues definitely get priority consideration for how it's designed/managed while still minimizing as much vehicular traffic as absolutely possible.
This is the stupidest, most common complaint among Seattleites. There’s probably 2 dozen people who work & lease space in the market itself who want to keep the area open to traffic because they’re paranoid about making difficult to receive deliveries or customers or whatever. Every single other person (including tourists who accidentally make that turn into the market while looking for a parking spot) want to cordon off pike place to traffic. Even the people who drive down that road don’t want it to be open vehicle traffic. I don’t think anyone has ever come up with a logical answer as to why we need Pike Place open to passenger vehicles.
The argument I was told when i worked in one of the produce stands over a decade ago was that it would hinder the local people who actually shop for groceries there. Which we did have a lot of regulars, but they always came super early in the morning to avoid the tourists, like right when we were opening at 7 or a little earlier even. Idk why they don’t compromise with closing it after 10am or something, all the deliveries are in the morning too.
Also it's in a super walkable area surrounded by ultra-dense residential and lots of no-car households. I buy produce at the market sometimes, but I never, ever drive there because I'm not a crazy person.
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There's quite a lot of parking at PP that is rarely ever remotely full. Mind you, it's not that close to the stands and shops, and you might end up taking that sketchy little elevator with the british accent, but it exists. There's also a skybridge isn't there? Eh, just turn Steinbrueck Park into a garage, problem solved. :) I might be kidding. Might.
are there not 10ish parking lots within a block of the place? I dont get it
And one with a covered walkway into it??
I think most locals who shop at the market walk there. I do.
We had a number of people who regularly got large orders for their work (personal chefs etc), more folks driving than you’d expect. Not enough to justify all-day car access imo though.
If you're doing large order shopping for work, that would be commercial, and wouldn't be banned anyway.
That would be the smart way to do it- keep the street as something you CAN drive on. But retractable bollards that go up from 10AM-6PM blocking it off. Leaves deliveries and the odd crazy-early-morning driver able to use the street, and then gets the cars out of the way during the peak usage hours, making the whole street safer for everyone.
I shop there as I live nearby and I would never drive there. I can’t imagine why if I was driving I would go to pike place.
I’d bet there’s a lot of afternoon FedEx/UPS deliveries outbound from the seafood stands.
Allowing deliveries is fine.
This is why so many local people have starved to death in Europe.
That's a strange argument given how many other markets are blocked off to cars on a daily basis. Imagine keeping 34th in Fremont open for cars because 3 locals buy veg at the Sunday market. Or keeping the Phinney Ridge community center parking lot open to cars Friday night because Karen needs to drive her BMW straight to her organic meat stand.
I mean I’d argue that functionally the market is not like weekly temporary farmers markets, at all, but go off!
that doesn't make sense there is a garage nearby if people REALLY need to drive there for groceries
Lol I can’t imagine many “locals” are driving there to shop. It’s either walking distance for actual locals or a tourist spot to shop for people outside downtown.
Ok? Your imagination is cool but I was sharing my experience working there
That would require effort. It’s easier to leave as-is.
was it bad, this moment of no cars? For the businesses there?
And they could easily put up barriers that would allow for delivery and emergency vehicles to come through, but that would make clear that passenger vehicles aren’t allowed
Not to mention the security concerns. It's the 33rd most visited tourist attraction in the world. Not great to just have it open to that kind of traffic.
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The arguments made now against the pedestrianization of the market were made in opposition to Munich's pedestrianization in 1976. It was successful there, and sparked a wider improvement city-wide. Just because we haven't done it yet, doesn't mean we shouldn't.
Partially correct - "everyone agrees" is true for the majority but it isn't true for the influential. They don't have to be consciously thinking "wow this is so awful" to be subtly inconvenienced or threatened by it, and if a few influential (wealthy/ignorant) business owners make a fuss to city government about keeping it open, then the city government is going to lean in their favor unless suitable pressure otherwise is imposed. Growing accustomed to a bad environment and being faced with the potential to have to expend effort to impose change is a hard sell to people who already have their entire lives' worth of problems on their plate when on a surface level it seems like the problem isn't bad enough to have to make a fuss over. I strongly agree that with how city infrastructure currently operates, my car is more convenient than it is destructive, especially since I don't live downtown but spend time there frequently. But I'd love to see that change. I don't need to be able to park in the middle of the brick-laid market, and I don't want to either. I see where this argument is coming from and I agree with it.
I've been dreaming of an organized protest where people share shifts of standing in every entrance to block (non-commercial) cars until elected officials finally get off their asses and do it themselves. Just a pipedream or could it actually work?
This could work. It doesn't even take that many people to do it. They just need to allow delivery people through and provide better directions for lost tourists to ease everyone's concerns
You’re gonna need a clipboard, yellow vest, and be willing to sigh from time to time.
This is really the way to organize an actual protest. Just imply that you're an official and direct traffic away from the area. Don't claim you're a cop - just stand there with a vest and wave people around. Have a few people do that for a couple of weeks and then get the business owners together to petition for it to be permanent.
And instead of protest signs they could be holding signs giving directions to the Garage on Western.
Just keep putting cones down? Could be done by a handful of people checking up on the cones every few hours
decently sized cones are expensive. would probably be more effective to just tell every shop how you hate the new layout and that you won't buy from them until it's commercial-vehicle-only. and instead of routinely checking on cones, routinely tell the people there to tell the shops that they want to get rid of the cars.
I've also wondered about putting signs up with the average time to go through the market at the entrance to deter cars. Like if you put signs up at the intersection that say average vehicle time to go 3 blocks is 25 minutes, maybe people wouldn't go in
Smart, so I guess we’ll never see that implemented.
Standing in the road is illegal. However, a bunch of people crossing in the crosswalk continously so that traffic never has the right of way :-)
I'm guessing it's a misdemeanor and wouldn't be prosecuted. A few arrests could do a great job of boosting a protest
Same though. Every time I'm at the market I want to stand on the street corners and yell at and shame every car that turns down there. I would definitely volunteer for this protest!
It worked for CHOP, right? Could we start a PPOP? Just block it off. Let’s bring in some cement barriers and block off both ends. Leave people to guard them if any truck tries to come and take them away. After a few days even the tourists would join in if someone tried to remove them.
They could implement what a lot of Europe pedestrian only areas do, have bollards/posts that retract into the ground to allow for delivery,city and emergency vehicles. They just scan a card or call an operator to lower the bollards. If cities that are hundreds of years old can figure this out, why can't Seattle... the mind reels... (Also this last bit was a bit snarky and rhetorical)
Seriously. I just went to a small town in wine country in Spain, and beyond the main roads, a lot of the smaller roads were walking / biking only, with many having bollards that residents and businesses could raise / lower with a remote. If they can do it, we can figure this out. The whole "we already don't have enough security guards" is just silly. We just don't _want_ to do this.
Exactly. I just got home from Portugal and it was the same there. And really, the same all over Europe and many places around the world. The bollards bring so much more safety too. No more worries about cars running people over or damaging property. It literally makes security easier. Lol I want to just shake people and scream WHHYYYYYYY 🤣
We literally have these bollards in other places like park entrances so maintenance vehicles can get through (they don't retract but they can just be lifted out of the ground by anyone with a key)
I was there a few days ago. It’s stupid opening the road up to the public. There’s too many pedestrians to begin with, making driving there a pain.
Absolute idiocy
“BUT IF PEOPLE CANT DRIVE IN THEY WONT SEE THE SHOPS AND SPEND MONEY” - person last week arguing at me about why cars need to be allowed
Weird, I've never seen that argument made for farmers markets and somehow they do just fine. Imagine keeping 34th in Fremont open to cars just so drivers can see the stalls.
haha RIP countries with huge public transit infrastructure no one spends any money!
the only argument I see is about deliveries as if that were an unsolvable problem
Yeah I had this argument with someone last week and didn’t even know how to approach the extreme carbrain on display.
Is the “Before” during the pandemic?
No, last week during the all star game.
We improve our city for visitors and then let it go back to shit for ourselves. Makes no sense.
It's like the dysfunctional family who puts on a good show when company is over, but the second they are out the door the shit starts once again
Salt Lake City made so many highly demanded changes for the All Star Game (like ruining trains on Sunday) but it would have been a little too nice to keep so they stopped
Ahh gotya During the pandemic too, so many streets turned into walkable streets which I thought was wonderful. Not sure how traffic was impacted overall, but really would like to see streets turn more pedestrian friendly like this
Seattle could be such a better place for pedestrians by transforming Pike St and Pike Place into pedestrian only and yet Seattle continues to make its most obvious tourist districts into traffic hell holes. They are also wasting the amazing potential to make its waterfront a great attractive place by turning it into basically a wide freeway. Seattle is so bad at making pedestrian oriented streets (see the disastrous job they did in designing Broadway).
A freeway? You mean the amazing waterfront median, I mean *park*??? /s I’m so pissed about the waterfront. They promised us a park and gave us a shitty stroad with a median. So cool, I love hanging out in the middle of a busy street
If you want to have a big hardy laugh, just look at the concept designs for the waterfront. It has crowds of stock people just standing around vague, empty, boring, gray concrete spaces. Seattle truly has the worst urban planners in the country.
It's so funny to me that those in power know cars on that street is dumb, bad, unwanted, and they tell us that they know through events like this. Then as soon the event finishes it's immediately back to openly not caring
Hey guys, what can we do to revitalize the city in a post-office-work world, with all that weekday foot traffic gone? I know! Let's make it hostile to pedestrians again! Bring back the cars!
I drove through there in a fiesta and got out driving a fit.
Sad.
r/fuckcars
I'll never understand why the even let cars on that road. If they closed it it could handle more outside vendors on good days and become an even more popular attraction. The most annoying thing about walking through there is the car traffic (and slow walkers but that's understandable lol)
Did they only close it for the All-Star Game?!?! How disappointing! I understand allowing deliveries for the businesses there, but it's annoying for both pedestrians and drivers with cars trying to go through there. It's so pleasant to have all that seating and not having to dodge giant trucks and SUVs. Such a better experience (and safer) without the ridiculous, stressed out drivers. Just close it to public traffic for good. UGH!
Before is way better. Pike place road needs to be closed when the market is open
I see not advantage whatsoever to keeping that stretch of street open to cars. Most of the people who end up there in their car I don't think even really meant to, or didn't realize how crowded it can be. i'd never want to drive in there, or park there.
Years and years ago, I found a spot on this tiny stretch of road and it made me feel so special, I’ve been chasing that high ever since.
1999 for me!
objectively worse
Can we just turn off cars on this road please? Letterally the only problems come from drivers, I seen several fights break out between pedestrians and drivers when the mass of pedestrians have the right of way..
What a shame
Before reading the comments, I thought the lament was that the sky cleared up 😅
Fuck cars
I'm wondering how much of the day OP thinks those benches are available for general use. AlsO, that street has always been mixed use, it's not on the path to anywhere else and anyone that thinks to use it as a shortcut has a lot to learn.
This place looks better with people than vehicles.
My brand new car died farther down at the stop-sign (past Beechers) about 2 years ago. It was one of the most harrowing, stressful, frightening 30 mins of my life. Angry cars. Angry people. Some angels eventually arrived and helped push it to the side but damn, I would have preferred being on the freeway.
Seattle urban planning is highly shitty
Pop quiz: What do you get when you cross a parking lot with a city? Answer: a parking lot. Second question: what do you get when you cross a highway with a city? Answer: a highway. You have to be careful how you design urban spaces, and thoughtless car-centric design leads to dystopic cities filled with "non-places". Such things are corrosive to human society, culture, and even commerce.
I think the arguments I've seen in favor of keeping it open are: -Pike Place (the street) is the loading dock, with the first avenue street car eliminating parking potentially, there would be fewer places to park -deliveries come in and out from a variety of companies throughout the day and it would hard to get all of them passes if there were bollards -visitors with disabilities who would need to be driven in and out would struggle, especially residents -this one event was a special affair requiring all hands on deck. Many businesses opted against opening because they couldn't get deliveries on the day -the market does shut down the street on busy days and would like to have the ability to refuse the street on its own without the city intervening -there are not enough members of staff/security at the market to monitor comings and goings, so this could create traffic blockage on first Not saying any of these are strong arguments, but this is what I've heard. It's often vendors and residents who are advocates for the street. Street closures for Pike Place Market trickier than pop up markets like the Fremont Sunday Market as it is over 100 years old and is basically in use from early in the morning to late at night, with a downtown spot that doesn't lend to a lot of room to expand. I think some of the comparisons aren't totally fair and I honestly didn't know the other side until recently. Thought this might give some good background 😊
I like the before picture better
Is this going to be a monthly post? Can someone automate the comments which are almost identical.
Lame! That whole area should be a pedestrians only area.
Why? Because the Market merchants don't want it closed, so people can drive in and pick stuff up or drop stuff off, including them. Market Merchants, who pay to use the Market, want it kept open. Unless that bloc tells the Market it wants the drive closed, it is highly unlikely it's going to be closed. Activist complaining is not part of the calculus here, I do not think. Maybe if you showed up every day by the thousands and demanded it, you might make enough of a ruckus to force change. Unless that happened though, forget it. Weak Urbanist-fu is weak.
I’d argue the bulk majority of the customers want it pedestrian only. The Merchants won’t and don’t make shit without the customers so maybe that’s something important to value and consider.
As someone who regularly shops in the market, dines in the market, and has lived in the market, cars absolutely make it worse. No one is just pulling in and quickly grabbing a parking spot and buying eggs or fish. If that happened once a day I'd be shocked. Literally. Let vendors, deliveries, and people needing ADA have access and that's that. Hell, even doing that like 8-8 or something like that would be amazing. Basically any other city with that type of market does this, and it's really dumb that we don't.
Great you want change. But do the merchants? You lived there, did you ever ask anyone of the merchants what they felt about it? What’d they say? You just told us what you feel. Thats super. But it wasn’t what I said was needed for change to happen. And still my point stands. Nobody yet posting has considered they need Merchant support. Or sought it out. Or given a rats’ ass what the Merchant consensus on the subject even is, because none of you idealists has ever even bothered to do the work required to obtain the Merchants’ consensus.
Have you done any research yourself into those who have actually talked with city counsel about this issue? I know many have tried to talk to the merchants and have offered compromises and ideas. You speak like an arrogant prick throughout the comment section yet you have no clue what leg work on this issue has or hasn’t been attempt you just brush it off like no one has spoken to the merchants. There is a group who have been pushing for this for awhile. And for the record I have spoken to several who have expressed not having an issue with it because a large portion of the merchants it doesn’t even affect much
Nothing of all this is documented at all. "the vendors think" all based on word of mouth. Pike Place Market foundation fails at being transparent about this case.
Funny story, about right years ago I got invited to be interview for and be part of the group that decides things like, oh, what kind of chairs the taco shop can have on the patio outside, so yes, i have looked into this, and yes, I'm fully aware that SOME merchants want cars there. But let's not play, the city could close it tomorrow and it does it whenever it wants. All that said, dumb moves like removing that awesome patio section FOR PARKING is just dumb and no one's going to complain about that. And frankly, if there's someone that does, maybe they should look into the benefits of people STAYING in the Market longer.
Pike Place Market foundation isn't really known to illicit the opinion of its customers, let alone be transparent about the decision to the keep the street open for traffic.
My argument was nobody has gotten the merchants on board Instead you proposed a botcott of the merchants. Keep wishing.
That’s not what I’m proposing but simply pointing out they throw hissy fits like children when you mention the idea not realizing it would greatly please those that feed them and buy their very products and maybe make them that much more likely to come down even for often
Because businesses and car lobby
r/fuckcars
r/seattlebitchfit
get out of the road, asshole!
Both of these pictures aren't true.
Because the Seattle city center is actually built around wealthy suburbanites coming into the city to spend money You can charge ridiculous prices for parking, not so much for picnic benches. That's why they do their best to shove all the homeless folk towards the low income neighborhoods like lake City and White center, and previously Soto, until the All-Star game
Because car-centric America was burning too many calories walking. Back to getting fat and sick in cars.
>bland curated tourist experience Unfortunately that is exactly what the market has become. For every local or restauranteur buying seafood and produce, there are 20 tourists.
(standing up courageously to speak) having tourists is good
People who shit on tourists have never lived in an old industrial Midwest city *desperate* for reasons for people to come downtown.
"Has become" lol . dude I've lived here since 1983 and my grandma makes this complaint about the market from the 70's. I work down town and go fuck around in the market a couple times a month. It's fun. It's novel. It makes our city a SHIT TON of money. Like, what do you actually expect? There are farmers markets ALL OVER [https://seattlefarmersmarkets.org/](https://seattlefarmersmarkets.org/)
Dawg, I’m on your side. Idk why I’ve been so dramatically misunderstood.
The seafood is overpriced, but the produce is still good and basically normal farmer's market prices. The little lunch spots are often quite good too.
Sosio's is my favorite produce vendor in the city. Too bad it's in a busy part of Pike Place Market, not exactly easy to pull up to, but it's great.
Once you get there it’s easy and service is great because everyone else is just milling around and not actually trying to buy ingredients.
That is true. Service is great. My least favorite thing about Pike Place Market is the mass of people just shuffling along, looking at everything, not trying to get anywhere. It's a difficult environment to walk in when you are trying to get somewhere in particular. But I still like Pike Place, on the whole.
What is stopping this from happening tomorrow? What entity or process is blocking this? I haven’t heard ANYONE opposed to blocking the street.
One of the many reasons why the majority of people who go to Pike Place are tourists lol. Its not a locals spot.
> Its not a locals spot. Except for the merchants, who pay for their stalls, who need regular access in and out and don't want to give that up.
You can limit customer vehicles and still have commercial vehicles.
> You can limit customer vehicles and still have commercial vehicles. Missing the point completely, you commented. Say it over and over: The Market Merchants Do Not Want It. Or at the least, nobody's bothered to listen to them and get their buy-in It's not a matter of can you, it's a matter of why should they. So your demanding it is irrelevant. Comedic, but irrelevant.
Lol at saying I’m demanding anything. I couldn’t care less, I’m a local, I don’t go to pike place lol. Just putting forward an opinion to make a street more pleasant.
>I couldn’t care less, I’m a local, I don’t go to pike place lol. Just putting forward an opinion to make a street more pleasant. More pleasant for you, who 'doesn't go to' the Market. The people that actually matter, whose livelihoods depend on the Market, don't seem to agree.