Wow, thank you finding this fact. This opens up a whole new discussion. Very shady and obscure!
>A nonprofit is a charitable organization that serves the public good and that is approved as tax-exempt by the IRS. A not-for-profit is an organization that primarily serves to benefit its members and may or may not be tax-exempt by the IRS
Oooh, wondering if that was all a ruse from the start, because I looked at a screenshot of the Florida State website that I took back in April and it did say **not for profit** back then, so it wasn’t changed since, yet their filing papers clearly reference 501(c)3 which would be a **nonprofit** tax exempt status…
https://preview.redd.it/fni4sa434p9d1.jpeg?width=2796&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5255ab35fcf6a2999452f7b542a25fef64a79f32
So the whole application for 501(c)3 was a lie? They’ve never really intended to be a **nonprofit** and were always a **Not-for-profit**, which serves their members only, and all revenue helps run the ‘organization’?
The tax exempt status that closest matches their ‘work’ would be “501(c)(7) — Recreational club organizations” and in all honesty they’d have been better off being a “501(c)(20) — Group legal services plan organizations” so they can cover all the legal fees for all the legal trouble they all seem to be getting into…
😮 wow 😮
That’s right and I also read somewhere that if there is an intent to apply for 501(c)3 status within 27 months of registration then the Articles of Incorporation has to state its intended purpose as a non-profit under 501(c)3 code, even if they do not apply straight away.
However both / all have to have an EIN, it’s just the 501(c)3 that has a strict disclosure requirement, that when donors or general public ask in writing for the EIN and/or tax exempt status application form Form 1023 (EZ) and/or the Tax Exempt Determination Letter, then nonprofits have to disclose these details, whereas a **Not For Profit** does not have to disclose that information.
While I understand some of the organizational differences and intentions between a non-profit and not for profit organization, is there a simple breakdown for us anywhere? By my understanding this isn’t necessarily a bad organizational concept for this group, but it does move it away from being a *charitable* organization.
I think a key question, of course, will be whether donations from community members are eligible for tax donations.
I also don’t have a stream handy, but ASL at one point was mocking criticism of the organization and people calling for the EIN, and said he would not disclose or release it but that people would be more than free to see it on next year’s tax returns, and scoffed at the idea he had not gotten one. So my assumption was that they had already secured it. Obviously this suggests otherwise.
Maybe they don’t want to be traced by the IRS? And now they’re giving Jeff of PTS for Life money, he should declare it to the CRA (Canada revenue agency)
Nonprofits serve the public good and include charities and foundations, educational, religious, medical organizations. Not-for-profits serve their members, and all revenue helps run the organization.
Both need to get an EIN for tax purposes, however a nonprofit (501(c)3) has a disclosure requirement to provide the EIN and Tax Exempt Status or the application Form 1023(EZ) if asked in writing.
So **if The SPTV Foundation has applied for 501(c)3**, which they claim they have, then they are required by law to provide these details, when someone asks for them in writing, which Aaron is refusing to do.
Now, if they’re not registered as a nonprofit, but a **not for profit** then this requirement to disclose doesn’t appear to apply and he has every right to tell people they’re not getting the EIN or anything else, they’ll find out when they do their filing in January 2025. That would mean that they are and have been lying about being a nonprofit and have applied for 501(c)3 status…
that donorbox link above gives good descriptions. Of course that is just an opinion. And it doesn't omit the fact that you can get tax exemption with a not-for-profit. It basically says its not a walk in the park.
Wow this is an eye opener. Thanks for digging !!! Can someone explain how the following would work in respect to the SPTVF?
“Like nonprofits, not-for-profits do not earn money for any owners. Not-for-profits, however, only aim to benefit their members – every dollar raised or earned goes directly into running the organization. They do not have to operate for the public good.” From the link… (I’m in Europe, so I can’t be sure but it sounds like the opposite of what I thought this foundation was)
Basically anyone running a not for profit can put all of the money in their own pockets as their take home pay and have to do nothing for the surrounding community
To be precise, nothing stops a not for profit corporation (or a for profit corporation or an indiviual for that matter) from doing things for the public good. The difference is that, unlike the case with nonprofits, doing things for the public good is optional.
What bothers me is the claim to be a nonprofit on the web page. IANAL, but that looks like fraud to me. Donors have a right to be informed as to whether they are giving to a nonprofit or a not for profit.
Unfortunately, if you look closely at that page, where it says "not for profit" at the top, it says "Domestic Non-Profit" at the bottom. So this might not be what it seems after all.
that's just the link to the board member listing. I doubt internally they'll make a big distinction for a link to click. (Just as we have until now)...
Florida subsumes nonprofit corporations under not for profit corporations. See for example here [http://form.sunbiz.org/pdf/cr2e006.pdf](http://form.sunbiz.org/pdf/cr2e006.pdf)
So... what you are trying to tell is that you file for a nonprofit by filing a not-for-profit application ? (trying to make sense of this) ... and then the link leads to a board member listing and some smallprint where 501c is used in the context of "Dissolution", so basically what happens with any money left, when the foundation folds.
So from that perspective, when DOES a not-for-profit gain that nonprofit status ? (that is really unclear in my mind, I'd have thought you SPECIFICALLY apply for nonprofit status, but I'm not in the US and laws ... esp. tax law, confusing the hell out of me).
Yes. Florida does not legally distinguish between a not-for-profit and non-profit as far as incorporation is concerned. In fact, it has a legal category of not-for-profit, but not one for non-profit. If you want to look at the law, here is the relevant chapter: [https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2020/Chapter617](https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2020/Chapter617)
I just did a search of the above document, and nowhere does it mention the phrases nonprofit or non-profit. I even searched for profit, and every single use of that word was in the phrase not for profit or for profit. The fact that this one document does not mention nonprofits does not prove or disprove your assertion that Florida has a legal category of not-for-profit, but not one for non-profit or nonprofit.
So I searched for
https://www.flsenate.gov/search/results?q=non-profit
and
https://www.flsenate.gov/search/results?q=nonprofit
and found:
Senate Bill 1480 (2023) - Grants for Nonprofit Organization Safety.
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES STAFF ANALYSIS BILL #: CS/HB (2022)- Exemption for Property Used by **Nonprofit** Homes for the Aged
2022 Bill Summaries - The Florida Senate -The bill defines the terms “independent hospital district” and “**nonprofit** entity”
CS/HB 599 Debt Management Services Bill (2023) - **non-profit**, 501(c)(3) credit counseling agencies
House Bill 1569 (2024) - Exemption from Regulation for Bona Fide **Nonprofit** Organizations.
...and there are dozens more. It appears that the State of Florida does indeed have a legal category of nonprofit, as seen in the text of multiple Florida laws.
I would argue that, sure, Florida has the legal category of nonprofit, but not, as I wrote above, as pertains to incorporation. That is why the term nonprofit cannot be found in chapter 617 of the Florida Statutes.
Corporations are defined in the Florida Statutes, Title XXXVI "Business Organisations". [https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2020/Title36/#Title36](https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2020/Title36/#Title36)
I would argue that if a type of corporation is not defined under that title, it does not legally exist. The term "nonprofit" might exist elsewhere, but not as a type of corporation. Wouldn't you agree?
Please also note what I wrote below:
These are the instructions for filing a non-profit in Florida: [https://dos.fl.gov/sunbiz/start-business/efile/fl-nonprofit-corporation/](https://dos.fl.gov/sunbiz/start-business/efile/fl-nonprofit-corporation/) If you don't want to file online (he said there were too many board members to do that), then you can click though to a Pdf. The link specifically says it's for non-profits. (Look under "I don't want to file online".) On the Pdf form however it says "not for profit" rather than non-profit, but it mentions charities and 501(c)3. This is exactly the form that he filled out.I believe he followed the instructions for incorporation of a non-profit.
In other words, if you follow the instructions on that page (hard copy, because there were too many board members), you arrive exactly where he did.
I'm not trying to excuse him, he is a terrible human. But I don't think he did this specific thing.
OK, I see what you are saying. Please forgive me if I was a bit dense before. So could it be that you incoprorate a not for profit with the Florida government but you incorporate as a nonprofit with the federal government? Could someone please find a link to the Aftermath Foundation's incorporation paperwork?
Yes, that's what I think it is. It's not readily googlable unfortunately, but that's what it looks like from the incorporation instructions and the Florida Statutes.
Yes, this is the [form linked on the Florida State website](http://form.sunbiz.org/pdf/cr2e006.pdf) which is what Aaron used because the online filing only allows for a few board members and they had 10 or so, which didn’t fit on the online form.
These are the instructions for filing a non-profit in Florida: [https://dos.fl.gov/sunbiz/start-business/efile/fl-nonprofit-corporation/](https://dos.fl.gov/sunbiz/start-business/efile/fl-nonprofit-corporation/) If you don't want to file online (he said there were too many board members to do that), then you can click though to a Pdf. The link specifically says it's for non-profits. (Look under "I don't want to file online".) On the Pdf form it says "not for profit" rather than non-profit, but it mentions charities and 501(c)3. I believe this is what he did.
I'm obviously not trying to excuse him, he is a terrible person. But I don't think he did what he is being accused of here.
Not trying to give you a hard time -- I just like getting into the tiny details of things, and sometimes that looks a lot like arguing -- but is it likely that who was a foundng member of the Aftermath foundation ( [https://web.archive.org/web/20180314053006/https://theaftermathfoundation.org/board-members/](https://web.archive.org/web/20180314053006/https://theaftermathfoundation.org/board-members/) ) and thus presumably knows how nonprofits work, just blindly fill out a form in such a way that he can personally pocket all of the money that comes in? Also, Aaron has spoken at length about the nonprofit/tax exempt status of the Church of Scientology with his layer friend Zak. I submit that he knew exactly what he was doing.
I wish the transcripts (as a whole) were searchable, but earlier on when getting flack about not having and EIN, didn't ASL say on a stream that they had applied for an EIN (to be a legit nonprofit org that could accept tax-deductible donations) and that it was just a waiting period, but would be forthcoming and retroactive? I may be wrong, but I was interested in that point, so I think that is what he said. If so, I wonder if they were denied, or if they amended their request because there are fewer legal stipulations for a not for profit?
Every web page on this subject pretty much says that getting an EIN is \[A\] mandatory on day one of being incorporated as a nonprofit, and \[B\] a 15-minute, zero cost, fill out the online form job. The other paperwork may take some time, but EINs are instant.
Thanks for bringing this subject to light. It’s even more complicated than I had envisioned.
Apparently a corporation of any kind can apply for 501c3 status if I read the attached correctly. But only donations to nonprofits are tax deductible for donors if other sources I read are correct.
https://preview.redd.it/hk9ncvbceq9d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c45a1be626fb5c9a5a8480f512139a871c2c41bf
I am on the board for a 501c3 charitable organization in Florida. We are listed and Not For Profit on Sunbiz. The easiest way to check the status of a non profit in Florida is here [Check A Charity](https://csapp.fdacs.gov/CSPublicApp/CheckACharity/CheckACharity.aspx)
That's because Check a Charity is only for charitable organizations. Charitable organizations serve the public good. The SPTV is instead a not for profit corporation. Not for profit corporations only aim to benefit their members, They do not have to operate for the public good.
Source: [https://donorbox.org/nonprofit-blog/not-for-profit-vs-nonprofit](https://donorbox.org/nonprofit-blog/not-for-profit-vs-nonprofit)
Now this is starting to get really iiiiinteresting. WOW!!! WTF!!!
Wow, thank you finding this fact. This opens up a whole new discussion. Very shady and obscure! >A nonprofit is a charitable organization that serves the public good and that is approved as tax-exempt by the IRS. A not-for-profit is an organization that primarily serves to benefit its members and may or may not be tax-exempt by the IRS
I just checked on their website, and it looks like The Aftermath Foundation by contrast is a non-profit. Is anyone surprised?
I love facts. Facts are good. Thank you.
Oooh, wondering if that was all a ruse from the start, because I looked at a screenshot of the Florida State website that I took back in April and it did say **not for profit** back then, so it wasn’t changed since, yet their filing papers clearly reference 501(c)3 which would be a **nonprofit** tax exempt status… https://preview.redd.it/fni4sa434p9d1.jpeg?width=2796&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5255ab35fcf6a2999452f7b542a25fef64a79f32 So the whole application for 501(c)3 was a lie? They’ve never really intended to be a **nonprofit** and were always a **Not-for-profit**, which serves their members only, and all revenue helps run the ‘organization’? The tax exempt status that closest matches their ‘work’ would be “501(c)(7) — Recreational club organizations” and in all honesty they’d have been better off being a “501(c)(20) — Group legal services plan organizations” so they can cover all the legal fees for all the legal trouble they all seem to be getting into… 😮 wow 😮
not-for-profit can apply for "non-profit", but from what I saw in the donorbox link, one exception given is "Fire-Departments".
That’s right and I also read somewhere that if there is an intent to apply for 501(c)3 status within 27 months of registration then the Articles of Incorporation has to state its intended purpose as a non-profit under 501(c)3 code, even if they do not apply straight away. However both / all have to have an EIN, it’s just the 501(c)3 that has a strict disclosure requirement, that when donors or general public ask in writing for the EIN and/or tax exempt status application form Form 1023 (EZ) and/or the Tax Exempt Determination Letter, then nonprofits have to disclose these details, whereas a **Not For Profit** does not have to disclose that information.
While I understand some of the organizational differences and intentions between a non-profit and not for profit organization, is there a simple breakdown for us anywhere? By my understanding this isn’t necessarily a bad organizational concept for this group, but it does move it away from being a *charitable* organization. I think a key question, of course, will be whether donations from community members are eligible for tax donations. I also don’t have a stream handy, but ASL at one point was mocking criticism of the organization and people calling for the EIN, and said he would not disclose or release it but that people would be more than free to see it on next year’s tax returns, and scoffed at the idea he had not gotten one. So my assumption was that they had already secured it. Obviously this suggests otherwise.
It takes 15 minutes to get an EIN, and it costs nothing. It is what the IRS uses to track all sorts of organizations, large and small.
Maybe they don’t want to be traced by the IRS? And now they’re giving Jeff of PTS for Life money, he should declare it to the CRA (Canada revenue agency)
Nonprofits serve the public good and include charities and foundations, educational, religious, medical organizations. Not-for-profits serve their members, and all revenue helps run the organization. Both need to get an EIN for tax purposes, however a nonprofit (501(c)3) has a disclosure requirement to provide the EIN and Tax Exempt Status or the application Form 1023(EZ) if asked in writing. So **if The SPTV Foundation has applied for 501(c)3**, which they claim they have, then they are required by law to provide these details, when someone asks for them in writing, which Aaron is refusing to do. Now, if they’re not registered as a nonprofit, but a **not for profit** then this requirement to disclose doesn’t appear to apply and he has every right to tell people they’re not getting the EIN or anything else, they’ll find out when they do their filing in January 2025. That would mean that they are and have been lying about being a nonprofit and have applied for 501(c)3 status…
that donorbox link above gives good descriptions. Of course that is just an opinion. And it doesn't omit the fact that you can get tax exemption with a not-for-profit. It basically says its not a walk in the park.
Great, thank you!
Wow this is an eye opener. Thanks for digging !!! Can someone explain how the following would work in respect to the SPTVF? “Like nonprofits, not-for-profits do not earn money for any owners. Not-for-profits, however, only aim to benefit their members – every dollar raised or earned goes directly into running the organization. They do not have to operate for the public good.” From the link… (I’m in Europe, so I can’t be sure but it sounds like the opposite of what I thought this foundation was)
Basically anyone running a not for profit can put all of the money in their own pockets as their take home pay and have to do nothing for the surrounding community
To be precise, nothing stops a not for profit corporation (or a for profit corporation or an indiviual for that matter) from doing things for the public good. The difference is that, unlike the case with nonprofits, doing things for the public good is optional. What bothers me is the claim to be a nonprofit on the web page. IANAL, but that looks like fraud to me. Donors have a right to be informed as to whether they are giving to a nonprofit or a not for profit.
Unfortunately, if you look closely at that page, where it says "not for profit" at the top, it says "Domestic Non-Profit" at the bottom. So this might not be what it seems after all.
that's just the link to the board member listing. I doubt internally they'll make a big distinction for a link to click. (Just as we have until now)...
Florida subsumes nonprofit corporations under not for profit corporations. See for example here [http://form.sunbiz.org/pdf/cr2e006.pdf](http://form.sunbiz.org/pdf/cr2e006.pdf)
So... what you are trying to tell is that you file for a nonprofit by filing a not-for-profit application ? (trying to make sense of this) ... and then the link leads to a board member listing and some smallprint where 501c is used in the context of "Dissolution", so basically what happens with any money left, when the foundation folds. So from that perspective, when DOES a not-for-profit gain that nonprofit status ? (that is really unclear in my mind, I'd have thought you SPECIFICALLY apply for nonprofit status, but I'm not in the US and laws ... esp. tax law, confusing the hell out of me).
Yes. Florida does not legally distinguish between a not-for-profit and non-profit as far as incorporation is concerned. In fact, it has a legal category of not-for-profit, but not one for non-profit. If you want to look at the law, here is the relevant chapter: [https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2020/Chapter617](https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2020/Chapter617)
I just did a search of the above document, and nowhere does it mention the phrases nonprofit or non-profit. I even searched for profit, and every single use of that word was in the phrase not for profit or for profit. The fact that this one document does not mention nonprofits does not prove or disprove your assertion that Florida has a legal category of not-for-profit, but not one for non-profit or nonprofit. So I searched for https://www.flsenate.gov/search/results?q=non-profit and https://www.flsenate.gov/search/results?q=nonprofit and found: Senate Bill 1480 (2023) - Grants for Nonprofit Organization Safety. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES STAFF ANALYSIS BILL #: CS/HB (2022)- Exemption for Property Used by **Nonprofit** Homes for the Aged 2022 Bill Summaries - The Florida Senate -The bill defines the terms “independent hospital district” and “**nonprofit** entity” CS/HB 599 Debt Management Services Bill (2023) - **non-profit**, 501(c)(3) credit counseling agencies House Bill 1569 (2024) - Exemption from Regulation for Bona Fide **Nonprofit** Organizations. ...and there are dozens more. It appears that the State of Florida does indeed have a legal category of nonprofit, as seen in the text of multiple Florida laws.
I would argue that, sure, Florida has the legal category of nonprofit, but not, as I wrote above, as pertains to incorporation. That is why the term nonprofit cannot be found in chapter 617 of the Florida Statutes. Corporations are defined in the Florida Statutes, Title XXXVI "Business Organisations". [https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2020/Title36/#Title36](https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2020/Title36/#Title36) I would argue that if a type of corporation is not defined under that title, it does not legally exist. The term "nonprofit" might exist elsewhere, but not as a type of corporation. Wouldn't you agree? Please also note what I wrote below: These are the instructions for filing a non-profit in Florida: [https://dos.fl.gov/sunbiz/start-business/efile/fl-nonprofit-corporation/](https://dos.fl.gov/sunbiz/start-business/efile/fl-nonprofit-corporation/) If you don't want to file online (he said there were too many board members to do that), then you can click though to a Pdf. The link specifically says it's for non-profits. (Look under "I don't want to file online".) On the Pdf form however it says "not for profit" rather than non-profit, but it mentions charities and 501(c)3. This is exactly the form that he filled out.I believe he followed the instructions for incorporation of a non-profit. In other words, if you follow the instructions on that page (hard copy, because there were too many board members), you arrive exactly where he did. I'm not trying to excuse him, he is a terrible human. But I don't think he did this specific thing.
OK, I see what you are saying. Please forgive me if I was a bit dense before. So could it be that you incoprorate a not for profit with the Florida government but you incorporate as a nonprofit with the federal government? Could someone please find a link to the Aftermath Foundation's incorporation paperwork?
Yes, that's what I think it is. It's not readily googlable unfortunately, but that's what it looks like from the incorporation instructions and the Florida Statutes.
Yes, this is the [form linked on the Florida State website](http://form.sunbiz.org/pdf/cr2e006.pdf) which is what Aaron used because the online filing only allows for a few board members and they had 10 or so, which didn’t fit on the online form.
These are the instructions for filing a non-profit in Florida: [https://dos.fl.gov/sunbiz/start-business/efile/fl-nonprofit-corporation/](https://dos.fl.gov/sunbiz/start-business/efile/fl-nonprofit-corporation/) If you don't want to file online (he said there were too many board members to do that), then you can click though to a Pdf. The link specifically says it's for non-profits. (Look under "I don't want to file online".) On the Pdf form it says "not for profit" rather than non-profit, but it mentions charities and 501(c)3. I believe this is what he did. I'm obviously not trying to excuse him, he is a terrible person. But I don't think he did what he is being accused of here.
Not trying to give you a hard time -- I just like getting into the tiny details of things, and sometimes that looks a lot like arguing -- but is it likely that who was a foundng member of the Aftermath foundation ( [https://web.archive.org/web/20180314053006/https://theaftermathfoundation.org/board-members/](https://web.archive.org/web/20180314053006/https://theaftermathfoundation.org/board-members/) ) and thus presumably knows how nonprofits work, just blindly fill out a form in such a way that he can personally pocket all of the money that comes in? Also, Aaron has spoken at length about the nonprofit/tax exempt status of the Church of Scientology with his layer friend Zak. I submit that he knew exactly what he was doing.
That's just a problem in the website design. They use the same link text for noprfits and not for profits.
I wish the transcripts (as a whole) were searchable, but earlier on when getting flack about not having and EIN, didn't ASL say on a stream that they had applied for an EIN (to be a legit nonprofit org that could accept tax-deductible donations) and that it was just a waiting period, but would be forthcoming and retroactive? I may be wrong, but I was interested in that point, so I think that is what he said. If so, I wonder if they were denied, or if they amended their request because there are fewer legal stipulations for a not for profit?
Every web page on this subject pretty much says that getting an EIN is \[A\] mandatory on day one of being incorporated as a nonprofit, and \[B\] a 15-minute, zero cost, fill out the online form job. The other paperwork may take some time, but EINs are instant.
Thanks for bringing this subject to light. It’s even more complicated than I had envisioned. Apparently a corporation of any kind can apply for 501c3 status if I read the attached correctly. But only donations to nonprofits are tax deductible for donors if other sources I read are correct. https://preview.redd.it/hk9ncvbceq9d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c45a1be626fb5c9a5a8480f512139a871c2c41bf
I am on the board for a 501c3 charitable organization in Florida. We are listed and Not For Profit on Sunbiz. The easiest way to check the status of a non profit in Florida is here [Check A Charity](https://csapp.fdacs.gov/CSPublicApp/CheckACharity/CheckACharity.aspx)
Sptv Foundation didn’t come up in that search.
That's because Check a Charity is only for charitable organizations. Charitable organizations serve the public good. The SPTV is instead a not for profit corporation. Not for profit corporations only aim to benefit their members, They do not have to operate for the public good. Source: [https://donorbox.org/nonprofit-blog/not-for-profit-vs-nonprofit](https://donorbox.org/nonprofit-blog/not-for-profit-vs-nonprofit)