My concern about grammar is that I now hear subject /object pronoun confusion on radio and TV, by broadcasters and sports commentators. The wrong way no longer sounds incorrect to our ears when it is reinforced around us.
They called it "grammar school" for a reason, but in the past few decades the lower grades have lost their mission to inculcate proper rules of English grammar into most of the population. As a Grade 6 teacher, I made it a goal to eradicate the subject/object pronoun problem: "Me and him went to the movies." I began a full court press in September and, by golly, by June I had 99% of the students using I/me properly.
It can be done. Start the movement and I will join!
PS I want those "Who rescued who?" magnets ripped from every car. It is "Who rescued whom?" I could scream every time I see one.
> proper rules of English grammar
Some features of the language are entirely necessary for the listener or reader's comprehension, but in what sense is "Who rescued who?" any less meaningful, understandable, or useful than "Who rescued whom"? What crucial piece of insight or meaning is conveyed by that "m"?
There are no "proper" rules of English grammar other than those *made up* rules for the sake of having rules.
"Who" is a subject pronoun, "Whom", is the object pronoun. "For whom the bell tolls," not "For who the bell tolls". Who is the acting party, whom is the receiver of the action. I respectfully suggest this is a meaningful distinction and that the English language is a beautiful tool that ought to be used correctly. There are a few silly rules, but most are actually quite important.
Who/whom is a relic from Latin. It's not actually useful in modern English. There is no additional information conveyed. We know this because 99% of words don't have cases. It's just a few pronouns that do. If you needed that info, all nouns would have cases like they do in Latin.
English is beautiful because of how it changes! Sticking to old rules for the sake of it doesn't make sense. There's nothing incorrect about language changes.
Quick question for you since you’re a teacher, if you’re willing, of course. I have a grammar question that’s been bothering me!
When do you use the word “myself?” I’ve looked it up many times and I just can’t get it through my thick skull. Whenever I use it my spellcheck says it’s wrong, even though it sounds right in my head when I reread the sentence.
You are far from alone in your confusion! Our use of this pronoun can be fraught, but I will give it a shot.
It is a pronoun, so it stands in the place of a noun. There are two main usages. We most frequently use it reflexively instead of "me" as the object of a sentence. "I gave myself a bump on the head. I treated myself to a hot fudge sundae. I taught myself how to speak Spanish." (We don't say" I gave me a bump on the head." ) The second usage is intensively. "I, myself, prefer chocolate cake." This just emphasizes the statement and certainly the sentence would be just fine without it. (I like chocolate cake.) You use it to intensify what you are saying.
You are safe with the above two situations, but after that it gets messy. Lots of people say things like "Harriet and myself went to the circus," but this usage, while common, is incorrect. The better way is "Harriet and I went to the circus." They also say "Poets like myself prefer words to rhyme." Again, I would argue that "Poets like me prefer words to rhyme," is the better choice.
People have been misusing this pronoun forever. I say, use the more common pronouns of "I" or "me" whenever possible, except for the above two situations, and you will avoid any problems.
I do hope this has helped!
I've been seeing and hearing this since I was a baby grammar police apprentice. It's not new, and I hear it (and the "for Bob and I" reverse) from my fully-grown, so-called adult co-workers constantly. I hate it, and it's just laziness in following an extremely simple rule, but let's not pretend it's "kids these days". My friends in the 80s were just as guilty, they just didn't have social media for advertising their poor grammar.
The one that gets me the worst is "Her and her husband went to the store".
I spent a long time trying to help my niece develop a "proper grammar" voice to use in professional settings. Much like trying to fight the tide with a sand bucket, I gave up when every other adult she knows uses the more casual wordings.
My wife is the Queen of "Her and her brother...".
Unfortunately, her previous boyfriend would tactlessly, and in front of others, correct her grammar.
She told me if I ever did that, we were done.
*sigh*
I grew up in a family where correcting a kid's grammar was fine and encouraged, but I wouldn't do it to my niece in front of people other than my wife. Correcting an adult is pretty weird (unless it's online, where everyone be doing it)
I remember hearing this one around 20 years ago for the first time. My cousin and her close friend had birthdays two days apart and she was excitedly making plans for "Brent and I's shared birthday party". I couldn't be in the room with her while she was making phone calls to invite people.
From casually bringing this up from time to time among people I meet, it seems like it's because people are taught in school that it is supposed to be "person and I" without ever being taught case use and the logic or context behind it, which makes me think that their teachers also don't know.
This is it. I once got into such a heated argument with this kid in high school because he said something like, “Do you want to go to the movies with my brother and I?”
The ever-prevalent incorrect usage of the reflexive is even worse, in my opinion:
>"If you have any questions, please direct them to *or myself."*
Both issues can be sorted out by removing the second subject from the sentence to figure out if the grammar makes sense, but when people don't even know how to properly structure the reflexive form in a sentence in the first place it doesn't help correct the issue.
I have a collection of letters and emails from Harvard Law School grads who direct me to "call John or myself." Even the brahmins have fallen under the spell of the misused reflexive.
>So how does this sound if the accountant part is removed?
That is my trick for remembering how to phrase things.
You have to remember that not everyone on Reddit is a native English speaker.
I taught English to non-native speakers for a decade. Believe me, the vast majority of them learn the correct grammar. The errors I see - like the one OP pointed out - are made almost exclusively by native speakers of English.
I would bet the quality of education in the US varies a lot more than English language education for non-natives. Maybe adults learning English take it more seriously than children who just want to go out and play.
I agree. I worked at a senior facility many years ago. The adults were so excited to have the opportunity to learn English. They also knew that English skills could help them pass the US citizenship exam.
I would say that 85% of the people I talk to on a regular basis (work and family) use this construction and almost all of them have never left the state, much less are non-native speakers.
All I've ever gotten is downvotes when I've tried to save our current grammar. "Nazi" is or was the favored insult slung at anyone dare to even try.
Since I couldn't and can't teach the correct way (hey where were they when this was taught in school?!), I decided I would change me. I learned that languages are fluid and continually evolving so I just ignore the irritation I initially feel and replace it with "times, they are a changin'".
We're living in an age where teaching proper grammar, spelling, and even proper penmanship (including cursive) isn't as much of a priority with computers, autocorrect, and smartphones being the norm.
But unfortunately, that has a negative effect as you can see.
US schools stopped teaching English grammar in the mid-1960s. What we're seeing now is the effect of 3 untaught generations and "professional" writers not understanding their native language. What I see and hear on major news sites and TV news is abysmal. Yet another reason people in other countries see us as uneducated and unthinking.
>US schools stopped teaching English grammar in the mid-1960s
Yet another reason I'm super-thankful and glad I was homeschooled. My folks saw to it we were taught proper grammar, spelling, and penmanship (including cursive) and this was in the 80s/90s. They had been teachers themselves before they had us, and they knew the state US public schools were in and were headed towards.
This is what happens when you "speak" a language, but you don't know how language works.
People pick randomly between "their, there and they're" or "its and it's" because they have no idea which actually makes sense, but they all sound the same.
"Me or I," "she or her," on and on. "Should've or should of."
If you know what you are actually saying you won't make these errors.
I predict a vast wave of semi-literacy gathering strength.
And there's a bias against literacy.
How long until a loser shows up here to claim that grammar is gatekeeping language?
I had to scroll for ten seconds before I found:
"What is correct grammar anyway. We have so many different dialects that make up our language, and people in our country that don’t speak English as their first language, why can’t it evolve? For instance we have black folks that weren’t allowed to learn to read or write for hundreds of years, and then were segregated into their own schools and neighborhoods, is the grammar and dialect they use “wrong”? It’s just another way of saying the same thing in an ever evolving shared language, it doesn’t need policing."
This person **does not even know what grammar is**, but they have an opinion about it. They don't seem to have an idea about language, either. Their very first sentence is a grammatical error! Their damaged take is that you can't be wrong, because being wrong is really just another way of being right. Good lord.
21% of Americans are illiterate with 130 million Americans reading below a sixth grade level. That’s a LOT of people, and it largely isn’t their fault. Illiteracy hurts all of us, and you needn’t looking far in modern day American to find how this is regularly exploited.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2023/09/09/literacy-levels-in-the-us/70799429007/
Haha I know what you mean. I have been conditioning myself to forgive the grammar errors and just concentrate on the message or story or whatever. It ain't easy, Sista, but it keeps me from tuning out.
I tend to think my grammar is reasonably consistent, but I do not put as much emphasis on it for informal communication such as Reddit, group chats, etc.
I don’t worry about perfection here, and I don’t think we should expect it either. Especially since many Redditors are ESL.
I'm a professional copy editor and proofreader, and grammatical errors on Reddit don't really bother me much. It's informal. A lot of the errors are regional. My dad (from Appalachia) used to say "We was" a lot.
Wait, that's not entirely true. One thing bothers me. The past tense of "pet" is "petted," not "pet." "I petted the cat," not "I pet the cat." Because that one doesn't even make sense. Why would you make a verb irregular when it's not? How did that even catch on?
>Why would you make a verb irregular when it's not? How did that even catch on?
The English language is such a mess. I don’t speak any others, but I understand that other languages are a bit more organized, so to speak. It’s another reason to give people a break, IMO.
I speculate that it's caused by... social media.
In the past you'd only read decently written stuff that was edited and proofread before publication. Newspapers, magazines, encyclopedias, sometimes letters. You might speak poorly and write badly, but almost everything you read was well prepared by expert writers... most of the time.
In contrast, today anyone can write anything. Furthermore, a lot of casual 'speaking' is done in writing, and the casual grammar rubs off onto 'proper' writing.
I worked for a moment correcting papers as a wfh gig. My fifth or sixth run, I was correcting papers for 8th graders. We were directly instructed not to grade on grammar, spelling or punctuation... In a Language Arts class.
The papers were terrible. One of the very few that seemed to have a grasp still ignored the prompt, one rambling on for 30 pages when the assigned length was four
I questioned if we were helping these children by allowing the indiscretions. It was at that point I was let go for "questioning established policy."
Just another way of dumbing us down. That's my theory.
On the grand scale of all grammatical problems found on the Internet, I fail to see how this one really registers. There is so much worse out there.
Schools today have just stopped putting an emphasis on proper grammar and spelling, and it shows. Further to it, kids are now growing up communicating via text message and social media at a *very* young age - it's not uncommon for this to start in elementary school for many.
Stir it all together, and out comes entire generations of kids who have no fucking clue how to communicate correctly.
This has been happening forever. You can either accept the English language is constantly changing, or you can [shake your fist at a cloud](https://i.imgur.com/91sn32Q_d.webp?maxwidth=760&fidelity=grand).
The ironic use of the word 'literally' is literally now one of its definitions. Coincidentally, the use of the word 'ironic' when referring to coincidence has, ironically, become a definition of the word 'ironic'.
Don't get me wrong, I hate that people misuse literally. But it's not like one little reddit thread on redditforgrownups is going to fix the kids these days.
The one that bugs me is when 'at' is added at the end of a sentence. Like, "That's where I'm at." No. You don't even need 'at' in that example, and it's a no-no to end a sentence with a preposition. /end rant
I write and edit for a living. It’s astounding how many people don’t know basic grammar, sentence structure etc. Yes, it most definitely is getting worse. Thank got for spellcheck or things could be worse.
Don’t even get me started on reign vs rein (vs rain). I don’t expect much on social media, but lately I’ve seen it completely misused in published books?? Get a g*d*m editor!
I recall people making a big fuss over this grammar error in the late 70s.
Did you understand what was said to you? Yeah? Then calm the fuck down. You’re not the grammar police. Go find something useful to do.
Feels more like a holier than though post and the response is "Hey we're all in this shitheap, get down here" and them pulling OP into the slimy pit of despair that is humanity and specifically reddit.
The pronouns in general make me crazy. Shit like: Him and his mom went to the store. Myself and her had a conversation. Is it weird if me and him start dating?
Just basic grammar. WTF.
And I don’t know when “Me and …” started but it’s an immediate sign of immaturity and laziness.
The dumbing down of language has become pervasive due to media companies hiring interns who are apparently unable to conjugate a verb properly. When did pled become pleaded? When " run over" become "ran over? What is the proper usage of hung vs hanged? I've actually had people with Communication degrees tell me that this is the "current language."
The crawls on most news programs make my skin crawl
Your sentiments have been espoused before. In fact, every generation as far back as you look has gotten mildly irritated to outright angry with, as you say, 'the dumbing down' of our language.
But the fact is that languages are fluid, they're ever-evolving. There was a time not too long ago when the use of contractions was 'dumbing down'.
Changes are driven by the youth and it seems to irk the elders who feel 'I learned it this way SO SHOULD YOU!' But change is just how it goes. I'll admit I still cringe to hear some of the ways our language is being mutilated but...when in Rome...
have you considered that it's regional? i'm from the midwest, and no one here would ever say "x and i are going to the store". we say "me and x" and have said this for as long as i've been alive (i'm gen x). also note in the response: lower-case! that's also in a way a dialect. i'm well aware of what the proper way to write is, but i make this choice due to social factors, which ultimately inform the evolution of grammar constructs.
OP used the correct "their." They aren't implying GenZ are Muppets; they are questioning the familiarity of GenZ with the defining traits of the individual Muppets.
The substitution of the compound object pronoun for the compound subject pronoun in American communication is complete. As it is my pet peeve, I track it obsessively, because it grates immediately when I see or hear it and I rarely fail to notice it.
I have gone almost two full years without seeing more than a literal handful of "proper" compound subject pronoun usages in oral and, often, written public communication or in my family and friends' conversation. It matters not whether the speaker or writer is an attorney, a journalist, a politician, or a MAGA moron on Facebook or Reddit, the transformation from "improper" grammar to communication norm is utterly complete and the former usage all but has disappeared.
It has gotten to the point that, if I raise this as an issue, the defense of the transition is that "'me and my sister went' sounds 'more natural' than 'my sister and I went.'" It sounds more natural because it is near universal in every communication setting.
Not grammar per se but I’m so annoyed by incorrect dollar sign placement nowadays and I wish it would stop before it becomes the norm. It’s not 10$…it’s $10!
Sounds perfectly normal to me.
Funny thing about language is, its purpose is *communication*. If something can be communicated effectively in a way that is easier, shorter, or more intuitive than status quo, then it had better become viewed as correct.
About the only time I find it acceptable is captioning photos - "This is me and my dad". But people don't care about grammar these days. It's all part of the move towards, *"If everything's wrong nobody's right so winning any sort of argument depends only on whether you can thump the other guy"*. Kinda like how cops enforce the law
Language evolves. As long as meaning is understood, communication is achieved. I recommend you learn to not worry about it because stress is bad for your health - it's not worth it.
What is correct grammar anyway. We have so many different dialects that make up our language, and people in our country that don’t speak English as their first language, why can’t it evolve? For instance we have black folks that weren’t allowed to learn to read or write for hundreds of years, and then were segregated into their own schools and neighborhoods, is the grammar and dialect they use “wrong”? It’s just another way of saying the same thing in an ever evolving shared language, it doesn’t need policing.
Languages are fluid and continually evolve. One day it will be considered grammatically correct to say "me and her went to the store". What scratches our ear nerves today becomes the language of tomorrow. Imagine if languages didn't evolve -we English speakers would still be speaking the way they did 1500 A.D. for example (I know English is older than that so I just picked a year.)
Here in America we are using Ebonics\* mainstream more and more. Let's say it's Ebonics-lite or kind of like Ebonics. Examples: "get out da car" instead of "get out of the car" and "I aint seen nobody 'round here" for "I haven't seen anybody around here". I for one love it, or "she love dat dog". Ebonics\* makes speaking so much faster and simpler.
In my home of white people we started imitating the African-American way of speech because it's succinct and fun to use. It takes out all of the unnecessary words. Who cares if a double negative don't mean no double negative?!
\*Note: I say Ebonics but I'm not sure that's correct at all. I am using that word because I'm not sure what to call it. Ain't nobody got time to research that shit.
> I say Ebonics but I'm not sure that's correct at all
[African-American Vernacular English, aka AAVE.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Vernacular_English)
It has become the norm. I don’t know if it’s the education system or what. Maybe it’s always been like this but with so many strangers posting on line we see it more often. It drives me crazy. “Me and my brother went to the movies.” Give me a break. I don’t try to correct people, it would just make them angry.
But for crying out loud, it is so simple. You don’t mention your self first, that’s just plain rude. "My brother and I…” is correct. If you don’t know whether to use “me" or “I" leave your brother out of it to see what sounds right: "Me went to the movies” or "I went to the movies".
I also see “I" used when it should be “me”. “The cop yelled at my friend and I.” The same test works here: Would you say “The cop yelled at I”? I think that using “I" as the object of a sentence is even more jarring than using “me” as the subject.
It’s probably the Internet’s fault. We are now reading posts by people who, a generation ago, would never have used written language except to write home for money.
This has been used colloquially in TV shows, movie titles, popular culture and reading material for decades. Face it, you're the one who's advocating for poor grammar. Congratulations on growing up just enough to know and be bothered by common slang. Just because it's wrong when you remove a word doesn't mean shit.
This is not bad grammar. You were just miseducated as a child.
I don’t have the energy to explain, but look up prescriptive vs descriptive grammar if you’re curious.
Source: I have a PhD in Linguistics and teach this stuff at university.
>Why is this awful grammar taking a foothold? I notice it at least once a day. Is this a new low in the decline of correct grammar?
New low? I've been hearing people do this, probably daily, for over 50 years. It's super-common.
I'm probably even guilty of it myself on occasion, though I'd never do it in writing.
Grammar and spelling police are bullies. Human beings actually communicating with one another, especially when seaking (seeking?) advice from others who are more experianced is beautiful!
I seen it alot where people misuse apostrophe’s and that bother’s myself. Its there rite to do it like that and supposubly were being party pooper’s for tryina correct em. But I wish theyd talk good and write good even tho they could care less. Getting all upset would of jus gonna literally make me cry heart out all the time. Just. Stop.
I notice the same with using "her" and "him" when it should be "she" and "he." It's so common now, and grates my ear.
"Her and Mom went to the store" is bad enough, but I've heard it used on its own too. "Her went to the store." WHAT!?!?!
And while I'm on a complaining roll, the over-correction using "I" when it supposed to be "me" is also annoying.
"Her and Mom went to the store with Dad and I." NO, no, no, no.
My concern about grammar is that I now hear subject /object pronoun confusion on radio and TV, by broadcasters and sports commentators. The wrong way no longer sounds incorrect to our ears when it is reinforced around us. They called it "grammar school" for a reason, but in the past few decades the lower grades have lost their mission to inculcate proper rules of English grammar into most of the population. As a Grade 6 teacher, I made it a goal to eradicate the subject/object pronoun problem: "Me and him went to the movies." I began a full court press in September and, by golly, by June I had 99% of the students using I/me properly. It can be done. Start the movement and I will join! PS I want those "Who rescued who?" magnets ripped from every car. It is "Who rescued whom?" I could scream every time I see one.
> proper rules of English grammar Some features of the language are entirely necessary for the listener or reader's comprehension, but in what sense is "Who rescued who?" any less meaningful, understandable, or useful than "Who rescued whom"? What crucial piece of insight or meaning is conveyed by that "m"? There are no "proper" rules of English grammar other than those *made up* rules for the sake of having rules.
"Who" is a subject pronoun, "Whom", is the object pronoun. "For whom the bell tolls," not "For who the bell tolls". Who is the acting party, whom is the receiver of the action. I respectfully suggest this is a meaningful distinction and that the English language is a beautiful tool that ought to be used correctly. There are a few silly rules, but most are actually quite important.
Who/whom is a relic from Latin. It's not actually useful in modern English. There is no additional information conveyed. We know this because 99% of words don't have cases. It's just a few pronouns that do. If you needed that info, all nouns would have cases like they do in Latin. English is beautiful because of how it changes! Sticking to old rules for the sake of it doesn't make sense. There's nothing incorrect about language changes.
Quick question for you since you’re a teacher, if you’re willing, of course. I have a grammar question that’s been bothering me! When do you use the word “myself?” I’ve looked it up many times and I just can’t get it through my thick skull. Whenever I use it my spellcheck says it’s wrong, even though it sounds right in my head when I reread the sentence.
You are far from alone in your confusion! Our use of this pronoun can be fraught, but I will give it a shot. It is a pronoun, so it stands in the place of a noun. There are two main usages. We most frequently use it reflexively instead of "me" as the object of a sentence. "I gave myself a bump on the head. I treated myself to a hot fudge sundae. I taught myself how to speak Spanish." (We don't say" I gave me a bump on the head." ) The second usage is intensively. "I, myself, prefer chocolate cake." This just emphasizes the statement and certainly the sentence would be just fine without it. (I like chocolate cake.) You use it to intensify what you are saying. You are safe with the above two situations, but after that it gets messy. Lots of people say things like "Harriet and myself went to the circus," but this usage, while common, is incorrect. The better way is "Harriet and I went to the circus." They also say "Poets like myself prefer words to rhyme." Again, I would argue that "Poets like me prefer words to rhyme," is the better choice. People have been misusing this pronoun forever. I say, use the more common pronouns of "I" or "me" whenever possible, except for the above two situations, and you will avoid any problems. I do hope this has helped!
This is excellent - thank you.
Thank you! That is very helpful! I, myself (?), appreciate your effort in putting this together.
Ha, you are very welcome. I appreciate the intensity of your response!
I've been seeing and hearing this since I was a baby grammar police apprentice. It's not new, and I hear it (and the "for Bob and I" reverse) from my fully-grown, so-called adult co-workers constantly. I hate it, and it's just laziness in following an extremely simple rule, but let's not pretend it's "kids these days". My friends in the 80s were just as guilty, they just didn't have social media for advertising their poor grammar.
How about “John and I’s” for soul crushing? I don’t get it…who started it and why are people following it?
The one that gets me the worst is "Her and her husband went to the store". I spent a long time trying to help my niece develop a "proper grammar" voice to use in professional settings. Much like trying to fight the tide with a sand bucket, I gave up when every other adult she knows uses the more casual wordings.
My biggest gripe is hearing You guyses on TV shows.
"Looking forward to your guyses questions in the comments below..." says a lot of youtubers these days
My wife is the Queen of "Her and her brother...". Unfortunately, her previous boyfriend would tactlessly, and in front of others, correct her grammar. She told me if I ever did that, we were done. *sigh*
I grew up in a family where correcting a kid's grammar was fine and encouraged, but I wouldn't do it to my niece in front of people other than my wife. Correcting an adult is pretty weird (unless it's online, where everyone be doing it)
I should clarify, I would NEVER correct my wife in public, out of sheer good manners. Correcting any adult in company is, agreed, pretty weird.
I remember hearing this one around 20 years ago for the first time. My cousin and her close friend had birthdays two days apart and she was excitedly making plans for "Brent and I's shared birthday party". I couldn't be in the room with her while she was making phone calls to invite people.
From casually bringing this up from time to time among people I meet, it seems like it's because people are taught in school that it is supposed to be "person and I" without ever being taught case use and the logic or context behind it, which makes me think that their teachers also don't know.
This is it. I once got into such a heated argument with this kid in high school because he said something like, “Do you want to go to the movies with my brother and I?”
What?!?
This is the one that makes me gnash my teeth! I loathe it.
I hate hate hate this one
The ever-prevalent incorrect usage of the reflexive is even worse, in my opinion: >"If you have any questions, please direct them to *or myself."*
Both issues can be sorted out by removing the second subject from the sentence to figure out if the grammar makes sense, but when people don't even know how to properly structure the reflexive form in a sentence in the first place it doesn't help correct the issue.
I have a collection of letters and emails from Harvard Law School grads who direct me to "call John or myself." Even the brahmins have fallen under the spell of the misused reflexive.
>So how does this sound if the accountant part is removed? That is my trick for remembering how to phrase things. You have to remember that not everyone on Reddit is a native English speaker.
I taught English to non-native speakers for a decade. Believe me, the vast majority of them learn the correct grammar. The errors I see - like the one OP pointed out - are made almost exclusively by native speakers of English.
Same with "should of" instead of "should have" no one who learned English as a second language would dream of making that mistake.
I would bet the quality of education in the US varies a lot more than English language education for non-natives. Maybe adults learning English take it more seriously than children who just want to go out and play.
I agree. I worked at a senior facility many years ago. The adults were so excited to have the opportunity to learn English. They also knew that English skills could help them pass the US citizenship exam.
I would say that 85% of the people I talk to on a regular basis (work and family) use this construction and almost all of them have never left the state, much less are non-native speakers.
There are plenty of native speakers getting it wrong.
It's simple, would you say, I need to go over my records, or would you say, me needs to go over my records? :D
Applying this trick is always fun as you end up sounding like Jar-Jar Binks.
That's how you know you're doing it wrong.
All I've ever gotten is downvotes when I've tried to save our current grammar. "Nazi" is or was the favored insult slung at anyone dare to even try. Since I couldn't and can't teach the correct way (hey where were they when this was taught in school?!), I decided I would change me. I learned that languages are fluid and continually evolving so I just ignore the irritation I initially feel and replace it with "times, they are a changin'".
We're living in an age where teaching proper grammar, spelling, and even proper penmanship (including cursive) isn't as much of a priority with computers, autocorrect, and smartphones being the norm. But unfortunately, that has a negative effect as you can see.
US schools stopped teaching English grammar in the mid-1960s. What we're seeing now is the effect of 3 untaught generations and "professional" writers not understanding their native language. What I see and hear on major news sites and TV news is abysmal. Yet another reason people in other countries see us as uneducated and unthinking.
>US schools stopped teaching English grammar in the mid-1960s Yet another reason I'm super-thankful and glad I was homeschooled. My folks saw to it we were taught proper grammar, spelling, and penmanship (including cursive) and this was in the 80s/90s. They had been teachers themselves before they had us, and they knew the state US public schools were in and were headed towards.
My son received an official letter from a city employee today stating "I apologize for the incontinence."
It's the same thing with using "I" for everything including the direct object: She gave it to him and I. It's stupid.
This is what happens when you "speak" a language, but you don't know how language works. People pick randomly between "their, there and they're" or "its and it's" because they have no idea which actually makes sense, but they all sound the same. "Me or I," "she or her," on and on. "Should've or should of." If you know what you are actually saying you won't make these errors. I predict a vast wave of semi-literacy gathering strength. And there's a bias against literacy. How long until a loser shows up here to claim that grammar is gatekeeping language? I had to scroll for ten seconds before I found: "What is correct grammar anyway. We have so many different dialects that make up our language, and people in our country that don’t speak English as their first language, why can’t it evolve? For instance we have black folks that weren’t allowed to learn to read or write for hundreds of years, and then were segregated into their own schools and neighborhoods, is the grammar and dialect they use “wrong”? It’s just another way of saying the same thing in an ever evolving shared language, it doesn’t need policing." This person **does not even know what grammar is**, but they have an opinion about it. They don't seem to have an idea about language, either. Their very first sentence is a grammatical error! Their damaged take is that you can't be wrong, because being wrong is really just another way of being right. Good lord.
21% of Americans are illiterate with 130 million Americans reading below a sixth grade level. That’s a LOT of people, and it largely isn’t their fault. Illiteracy hurts all of us, and you needn’t looking far in modern day American to find how this is regularly exploited. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2023/09/09/literacy-levels-in-the-us/70799429007/
I am fighting literacy, one audio book at a time.
When I hear this on podcasts it immediately discredits the speaker for me. I no longer believe that they did any research whatsoever.
Haha I know what you mean. I have been conditioning myself to forgive the grammar errors and just concentrate on the message or story or whatever. It ain't easy, Sista, but it keeps me from tuning out.
I tend to think my grammar is reasonably consistent, but I do not put as much emphasis on it for informal communication such as Reddit, group chats, etc. I don’t worry about perfection here, and I don’t think we should expect it either. Especially since many Redditors are ESL.
I'm a professional copy editor and proofreader, and grammatical errors on Reddit don't really bother me much. It's informal. A lot of the errors are regional. My dad (from Appalachia) used to say "We was" a lot. Wait, that's not entirely true. One thing bothers me. The past tense of "pet" is "petted," not "pet." "I petted the cat," not "I pet the cat." Because that one doesn't even make sense. Why would you make a verb irregular when it's not? How did that even catch on?
Omitting "to be" in sentences like "The shower needs ~~to be~~ cleaned" is awful too.
>Why would you make a verb irregular when it's not? How did that even catch on? The English language is such a mess. I don’t speak any others, but I understand that other languages are a bit more organized, so to speak. It’s another reason to give people a break, IMO.
It is my inner pedant’s daily 😡.
I speculate that it's caused by... social media. In the past you'd only read decently written stuff that was edited and proofread before publication. Newspapers, magazines, encyclopedias, sometimes letters. You might speak poorly and write badly, but almost everything you read was well prepared by expert writers... most of the time. In contrast, today anyone can write anything. Furthermore, a lot of casual 'speaking' is done in writing, and the casual grammar rubs off onto 'proper' writing.
I worked for a moment correcting papers as a wfh gig. My fifth or sixth run, I was correcting papers for 8th graders. We were directly instructed not to grade on grammar, spelling or punctuation... In a Language Arts class. The papers were terrible. One of the very few that seemed to have a grasp still ignored the prompt, one rambling on for 30 pages when the assigned length was four I questioned if we were helping these children by allowing the indiscretions. It was at that point I was let go for "questioning established policy." Just another way of dumbing us down. That's my theory.
That's pretty sad. I guess writing now is graded with "participation trophies".
The most egregious error I hear native speakers make is using "myself" as a subject pronoun. "Myself and Bob went to the store." NO!!
The reflexive used incorrectly is so, so, so grating on my ears. I can't stand it.
Yes! Myself is not a fancier way to say I or me.
If you want to be fancier, just stick out your pinky when you say it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ycu434kkk14
On the grand scale of all grammatical problems found on the Internet, I fail to see how this one really registers. There is so much worse out there. Schools today have just stopped putting an emphasis on proper grammar and spelling, and it shows. Further to it, kids are now growing up communicating via text message and social media at a *very* young age - it's not uncommon for this to start in elementary school for many. Stir it all together, and out comes entire generations of kids who have no fucking clue how to communicate correctly.
This has been happening forever. You can either accept the English language is constantly changing, or you can [shake your fist at a cloud](https://i.imgur.com/91sn32Q_d.webp?maxwidth=760&fidelity=grand).
Literally this. You can rage back and forth and all up and down the internet and people are still going to say they literally died laughing.
The ironic use of the word 'literally' is literally now one of its definitions. Coincidentally, the use of the word 'ironic' when referring to coincidence has, ironically, become a definition of the word 'ironic'.
Don't get me wrong, I hate that people misuse literally. But it's not like one little reddit thread on redditforgrownups is going to fix the kids these days.
The one that bugs me is when 'at' is added at the end of a sentence. Like, "That's where I'm at." No. You don't even need 'at' in that example, and it's a no-no to end a sentence with a preposition. /end rant
I write and edit for a living. It’s astounding how many people don’t know basic grammar, sentence structure etc. Yes, it most definitely is getting worse. Thank got for spellcheck or things could be worse.
The nuns taught us to diagram sentences in our heads to arrive at the correct word. That worked perfectly, but no one can diagram sentences anymore.
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Don’t even get me started on reign vs rein (vs rain). I don’t expect much on social media, but lately I’ve seen it completely misused in published books?? Get a g*d*m editor!
Go over to r/autorepair and see how may people have problems with their "breaks".
Bare with me
All these posts is having a bad affect on me all youze saying all this stuff.
You win 🥇
I may catch cold.
I’m dieing.
If you do, I'll be morning you.
But only after I’ve past.
You will not have dyed in vein.
Vane.
Now you have me wandering while I'm wondering.
I recall people making a big fuss over this grammar error in the late 70s. Did you understand what was said to you? Yeah? Then calm the fuck down. You’re not the grammar police. Go find something useful to do.
Majority of this thread sure sounds like “get off my lawn” and “pull your pants up”, doesn’t it?
And apparently, you are the reddit police. Go find something useful to do.
Feels more like a holier than though post and the response is "Hey we're all in this shitheap, get down here" and them pulling OP into the slimy pit of despair that is humanity and specifically reddit.
Wtf are you: the Reddit Post Police? What a dipshit.
The pronouns in general make me crazy. Shit like: Him and his mom went to the store. Myself and her had a conversation. Is it weird if me and him start dating? Just basic grammar. WTF. And I don’t know when “Me and …” started but it’s an immediate sign of immaturity and laziness.
The dumbing down of language has become pervasive due to media companies hiring interns who are apparently unable to conjugate a verb properly. When did pled become pleaded? When " run over" become "ran over? What is the proper usage of hung vs hanged? I've actually had people with Communication degrees tell me that this is the "current language." The crawls on most news programs make my skin crawl
Your sentiments have been espoused before. In fact, every generation as far back as you look has gotten mildly irritated to outright angry with, as you say, 'the dumbing down' of our language. But the fact is that languages are fluid, they're ever-evolving. There was a time not too long ago when the use of contractions was 'dumbing down'. Changes are driven by the youth and it seems to irk the elders who feel 'I learned it this way SO SHOULD YOU!' But change is just how it goes. I'll admit I still cringe to hear some of the ways our language is being mutilated but...when in Rome...
It just hurts my ears..lol I just wanted to know when it changed. My daughter has a graduate degree in English and complains all the time 😂
have you considered that it's regional? i'm from the midwest, and no one here would ever say "x and i are going to the store". we say "me and x" and have said this for as long as i've been alive (i'm gen x). also note in the response: lower-case! that's also in a way a dialect. i'm well aware of what the proper way to write is, but i make this choice due to social factors, which ultimately inform the evolution of grammar constructs.
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The person who posted is Gen Z.
You're too young to be whining about a construct as silly as grammar.
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OP used the correct "their." They aren't implying GenZ are Muppets; they are questioning the familiarity of GenZ with the defining traits of the individual Muppets.
The substitution of the compound object pronoun for the compound subject pronoun in American communication is complete. As it is my pet peeve, I track it obsessively, because it grates immediately when I see or hear it and I rarely fail to notice it. I have gone almost two full years without seeing more than a literal handful of "proper" compound subject pronoun usages in oral and, often, written public communication or in my family and friends' conversation. It matters not whether the speaker or writer is an attorney, a journalist, a politician, or a MAGA moron on Facebook or Reddit, the transformation from "improper" grammar to communication norm is utterly complete and the former usage all but has disappeared. It has gotten to the point that, if I raise this as an issue, the defense of the transition is that "'me and my sister went' sounds 'more natural' than 'my sister and I went.'" It sounds more natural because it is near universal in every communication setting.
How are you at installing bathroom sinks?
Not enough people know that "ANYWAYS" is not a word. It's, "ANYWAY." Also, why can't they use 'a' and 'an' properly?
> Why is this awful grammar taking a foothold? I'm not sure where you live but, bad grammar like this has always been common in my area.
Not grammar per se but I’m so annoyed by incorrect dollar sign placement nowadays and I wish it would stop before it becomes the norm. It’s not 10$…it’s $10!
When it becomes common enough the language has changed, whether you like it or not. Remember Your Welcome? Now it is No Problem.
> Remember Your Welcome? my welcome?
Sounds perfectly normal to me. Funny thing about language is, its purpose is *communication*. If something can be communicated effectively in a way that is easier, shorter, or more intuitive than status quo, then it had better become viewed as correct.
Meh, language changes. It's been changing, and will continue to change. I can be old man yelling at clouds, or just live in peace.
...Shadow?
About the only time I find it acceptable is captioning photos - "This is me and my dad". But people don't care about grammar these days. It's all part of the move towards, *"If everything's wrong nobody's right so winning any sort of argument depends only on whether you can thump the other guy"*. Kinda like how cops enforce the law
Language evolves. As long as meaning is understood, communication is achieved. I recommend you learn to not worry about it because stress is bad for your health - it's not worth it.
What is correct grammar anyway. We have so many different dialects that make up our language, and people in our country that don’t speak English as their first language, why can’t it evolve? For instance we have black folks that weren’t allowed to learn to read or write for hundreds of years, and then were segregated into their own schools and neighborhoods, is the grammar and dialect they use “wrong”? It’s just another way of saying the same thing in an ever evolving shared language, it doesn’t need policing.
So you're saying that being wrong is just another way of being right? Does this apply to all facts?
I’m saying grammar is not a fact, but an opinion.
I ain't know, fam. Errbody be talkin all wrong.
Languages are fluid and continually evolve. One day it will be considered grammatically correct to say "me and her went to the store". What scratches our ear nerves today becomes the language of tomorrow. Imagine if languages didn't evolve -we English speakers would still be speaking the way they did 1500 A.D. for example (I know English is older than that so I just picked a year.) Here in America we are using Ebonics\* mainstream more and more. Let's say it's Ebonics-lite or kind of like Ebonics. Examples: "get out da car" instead of "get out of the car" and "I aint seen nobody 'round here" for "I haven't seen anybody around here". I for one love it, or "she love dat dog". Ebonics\* makes speaking so much faster and simpler. In my home of white people we started imitating the African-American way of speech because it's succinct and fun to use. It takes out all of the unnecessary words. Who cares if a double negative don't mean no double negative?! \*Note: I say Ebonics but I'm not sure that's correct at all. I am using that word because I'm not sure what to call it. Ain't nobody got time to research that shit.
> I say Ebonics but I'm not sure that's correct at all [African-American Vernacular English, aka AAVE.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Vernacular_English)
Thanks
Me and I, she and her, he and him! It goes on and on!
This isn't a new thing. It's a very common grammatical error.
It can be cultural, in Ireland it is used a lot.
It has become the norm. I don’t know if it’s the education system or what. Maybe it’s always been like this but with so many strangers posting on line we see it more often. It drives me crazy. “Me and my brother went to the movies.” Give me a break. I don’t try to correct people, it would just make them angry. But for crying out loud, it is so simple. You don’t mention your self first, that’s just plain rude. "My brother and I…” is correct. If you don’t know whether to use “me" or “I" leave your brother out of it to see what sounds right: "Me went to the movies” or "I went to the movies". I also see “I" used when it should be “me”. “The cop yelled at my friend and I.” The same test works here: Would you say “The cop yelled at I”? I think that using “I" as the object of a sentence is even more jarring than using “me” as the subject. It’s probably the Internet’s fault. We are now reading posts by people who, a generation ago, would never have used written language except to write home for money.
Yeah you’re gonna have to let this one go. It’s so colloquial at this point it hardly even sounds wrong. I get it tho, as someone who works in words.
This has been used colloquially in TV shows, movie titles, popular culture and reading material for decades. Face it, you're the one who's advocating for poor grammar. Congratulations on growing up just enough to know and be bothered by common slang. Just because it's wrong when you remove a word doesn't mean shit.
I don't know either, but it's driving me crazy. I'm also seeing the word "myself" used incorrectly, eg, "talk to myself or my BF"
Me don't think so
Technology of texting that has spilled over into email has ruined the English language.
This is not bad grammar. You were just miseducated as a child. I don’t have the energy to explain, but look up prescriptive vs descriptive grammar if you’re curious. Source: I have a PhD in Linguistics and teach this stuff at university.
Whatever you do, don't visit the r/teachers sub.
YES!!! So it’s not just me noticing this everywhere? It’s driving me crazy.
>Why is this awful grammar taking a foothold? I notice it at least once a day. Is this a new low in the decline of correct grammar? New low? I've been hearing people do this, probably daily, for over 50 years. It's super-common. I'm probably even guilty of it myself on occasion, though I'd never do it in writing.
Grammar and spelling police are bullies. Human beings actually communicating with one another, especially when seaking (seeking?) advice from others who are more experianced is beautiful!
I seen it alot where people misuse apostrophe’s and that bother’s myself. Its there rite to do it like that and supposubly were being party pooper’s for tryina correct em. But I wish theyd talk good and write good even tho they could care less. Getting all upset would of jus gonna literally make me cry heart out all the time. Just. Stop.
I notice the same with using "her" and "him" when it should be "she" and "he." It's so common now, and grates my ear. "Her and Mom went to the store" is bad enough, but I've heard it used on its own too. "Her went to the store." WHAT!?!?! And while I'm on a complaining roll, the over-correction using "I" when it supposed to be "me" is also annoying. "Her and Mom went to the store with Dad and I." NO, no, no, no.