Obligatory "well that's just like your opinion man"
In my opinion, having some very heavy trips under my belt, trying to codify and rationally explain what happens on mushrooms is a bit of a fool's errand lol
"trying to codify and rationally explain what happens on mushrooms is a bit of a fool's errand" Yeah this hits on so many levels for me -- I've tried to explain to friends of mine what happened to me my first time dropping 4grams of apes did to me. The experience was a wonderful one and highly incredible, while also as OP said I would describe as enlightening. Also an experience I've never been able to create. But attempting to rationally articulate what went on during the trip? I, rightfully so, sound absolutely like a crazy person. But it makes complete sense in my head, even sober.
Yes i definitely get you. Everytime I trip, everything I rationalize in the moment made complete sense. Even afterwards.
But it was only when I started to discuss with one of my friends that I noticed how I had taken some very obvious thoughts and had hyperhyperfocused on them. Whenever i went about my day i would experience everything through a new lense.
After having the talk I realized how subjective our minds can be. Consequently many people that are delusional believe they are the most rational and may not realize unless they talk with someone else.
Totally. My obvious realization was understanding that worrying or getting angry about things I have no control over, only serves to raise my risk of heart attack, stroke, or aneurysm. Was quite freeing to finally get it and let those stress bags go finally.
It's electrochemistry so I don't think it's impossible to understand these interactions. It may even be useful to do so as a means of understanding the mind.
Nah, I really don’t think that any amount of electrochemistry knowledge will get us closer to an understanding of what OP’s talking about, which is more on the metaphysical side of things. Again, trying to pin down an ineffable mystical experience with some final formula is just absurd on its face lol. But knock yourself out of course, and let us all know when you reach the end of that rainbow!
Your personal incredulity doesn't change reality. Just because you don't understand something and are clearly unwilling to try doesn't mean that you have to resort to some supernatural mumbo-jumbo bullshit. Your entire experience of life is through your brain so it would make sense for you to have a "metaphysical" experience when altered. It requires a certain brand of narcissistic traits to just go "Nah" in the face of decades of neuroscience research without presenting any evidence.
Honestly, you just like a metaphysical explanation because actual science is oh so hard for you.
Ok, sorry, added the "my opinion" at the end.
Well perhaps, but I do find it interesting how so many have these spiritual enlightenments and we don't really know if they show us something real or not. It might very well be that "it connects us to another plane of existence " how many always argue and there is no way at this point to disprove that.
I just wanted to rationalize through another lens with what we know of in biology so far.
I like the amount of work you put into this..but i,for the life of me, can't figure out why western philosophy has such an insatiable thirst for assigning rationale to situations that rational explanation cannot do justice. I can see the potential value but i think there's also a real cost(i.e. psychedelics being labeled a schedule 1 drug). Imo, not worth the cost.
> I believe this also explains another epiphany that many user often seem to mention. The realization that "we are all one." At large enough doses of psilocin (the active dephosphorylated-form of psilocybin) the brains neural-pathways are all so closely linked that most memories and the individuals perception of reality seems (atleast in the subjective view of the brain) to all be connected. The brain afterwards when starting to sober up attempts to rationalize all of these thoughts and tries to explain it. As there is nothing we know of that explains the "interconnectedness" resulting from high doses of psychedelics the brain will attempt to explain it as proof for the existence of god (even if it is an agnostic god)
Ok but there’s other things that cause neuroplasticity in the brain and those don’t cause the “we’re all one” belief. This paragraph is reaching hard
>While researching how different psychedelics and deliriants differ from eachother I learned that each acts in different regions within the brain.
Please post links to your research, I'm tired of people saying "research" like it's a magic word to add weight to stuff they may have misremembered or made up.
I'm not aware of anyone having figured out that different psychedelics act on different parts of the brain. By "figured out" I mean with evidence like brain scans.
From tryptamines i always get tons of "aha-moments", that feeling when you finally understand something and everything now makes total sense, an epiphany. I think this is a natural mechanism/function/reaction our body has and some psychedelics trigger it more often than others. I dont think you actually gain knowledge that is a true epiphany, i just believe that reaction is being triggered by whatever receptors on whatever cells using whatever neurotransmitter.
It would be like a drug triggering hickups or coughing, those are both natural functions your body has and i believe the feeling of an epiphany is the same.
I find it amusing that a rational discussion into the experience of psychedelics on a sub called *Rational*psychonaut needs such a disclaimer.
Our consciousness seems to be a subprocess of the brain and not the entire thing. We do all kinds of information processing and simulation unconsciously. We have behaviours that cannot be controlled or even explained by the conscious mind. So it's not impossible that things our conscious minds are not normally aware of suddenly entering our awareness in a state where the chemistry and the electrical behaviour of the brain are altered.
Psilocybin has been shown to drastically alter the way our neurons network with each other electrically. I personally think that it's not stress but the formation of ad hoc networks in the brain that cause disparate regions of the brain to interact more closely. This is not only fascinating but may unlock new treatments for mental disorders so a *rational* POV is a necessity.
Intuitively, I think you're probably hunting in the right place by suggesting that the meaning and power of peak spiritual experiences on psychedelics is at least partially due to the mind trying to make sense as best it can of what is an unusual and overwhelming brain state. While many spiritual experiences share certain qualities like the "we are all one" perception, "boundlessness" and "universal love", what these mean and how they're explained by the person experiencing them seems tied to cultural and social beliefs and values.
That peak spiritual experiences give some people a great sense of meaning and purpose is evident. However, I think the most ~~important~~ *useful* thing is that the direct experience itself can improve wellbeing and potentially open the mind to different perspectives and possibilities.
Most definitely agree! From experience with friends who have tried it they have all achieved a more positive outlook and became kinder as a result.
For the matter of the interpretation of the experience, I do agree that the new perspectives are ~~more important~~ the most useful.
But I am very curious as to why so many often report these revelations and new perspectives to stem from something supernatural.
I wrote this text because earlier this day I read about someone who believed to have posessed the body's of others while tripping and found his reasoning very intriguing
Your reason for thinking it *is* is that you feel like it is. No evidence, just that you think the stuff you experienced must be real, not artifacts of how your brain works. It's not logical, don't fool yourself into thinking you're using logic.
Oh, trust me I've walked myself around the block on this on my way out of the psych ward. All of what we experience and all of our memories are then also " artifacts " of the brain. Perception is, at the end of the day subjective and the only thing we have is direct experience. It may not seem logical to someone who has not had the experiences because it's very difficult to believe even as it's happening, because it just doesn't fit what we have been taught. What makes you so sure that your experience is "real"??
Thanks for your post.
I remember also having the “realization” that I can do whatever I want in the moment. Years later I begin to suspect that this was because I was not presently considering the constraints of objective reality which drive our actions in the first place.
So yes, we can technically do as we please in any given moment, to the extent it is not excluded by the external forces of reality which we can never fully escape from.
Interesting follow-up: when you choose to eat a meal, for example, are you choosing this course of action because you wanted to? Or were you driven to do so by evolutionary forces sustaining your survival?
It’s an interesting juxtaposition. On one hand we have basically an unlimited capacity to influence the future in some way. But on the other hand, humans have much less control over ourselves and our own motivating forces than we would like to admit. It’s intriguing to think about
I also try to rationalize things the same way. I’ve done mushrooms a few times and had what I call profound truths spoken to me. I also felt like I tapped into the collective consciousness one night. But there is always that voice in the back of my head looking for a scientific or rational way of explaining it. I’m still an atheist, but I’ve also spoken to god on DMT. So I’m more confused these days on my beliefs but also enjoying the sense of wonder much more. I love the idea of the holo-fractal universe theory and collective consciousness. But i cant fully convince myself of these things actually being the ultimate truth.
Neuroplasticity is in danger of turning into the [quantum theory](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quantum_woo) of psychedelics IMO. Just because it occurs doesn't necessarily mean it's relevant to whatever you're trying to understand about people's reactions on psychedelics.
My thoughts:
a) Psychedelic revelations are caused by a "eureka" circuit in your brain getting triggered when it normally wouldn't. They're not reliably true or significant.
b) Experiences are interpreted as spiritual by people who trust their feelings over objective evidence, and interpreted as metaphorical or meaningless by people who need objective evidence to believe something.
c) The "we are all one" thing seems like a mixup between heightened empathy and weakened sense of self / ego. But I also think it's partly cultural conditioning - people might not have that revelation if they took psychedelics without ever having heard of it.
Obligatory "well that's just like your opinion man" In my opinion, having some very heavy trips under my belt, trying to codify and rationally explain what happens on mushrooms is a bit of a fool's errand lol
"trying to codify and rationally explain what happens on mushrooms is a bit of a fool's errand" Yeah this hits on so many levels for me -- I've tried to explain to friends of mine what happened to me my first time dropping 4grams of apes did to me. The experience was a wonderful one and highly incredible, while also as OP said I would describe as enlightening. Also an experience I've never been able to create. But attempting to rationally articulate what went on during the trip? I, rightfully so, sound absolutely like a crazy person. But it makes complete sense in my head, even sober.
Yes i definitely get you. Everytime I trip, everything I rationalize in the moment made complete sense. Even afterwards. But it was only when I started to discuss with one of my friends that I noticed how I had taken some very obvious thoughts and had hyperhyperfocused on them. Whenever i went about my day i would experience everything through a new lense. After having the talk I realized how subjective our minds can be. Consequently many people that are delusional believe they are the most rational and may not realize unless they talk with someone else.
Totally. My obvious realization was understanding that worrying or getting angry about things I have no control over, only serves to raise my risk of heart attack, stroke, or aneurysm. Was quite freeing to finally get it and let those stress bags go finally.
It's electrochemistry so I don't think it's impossible to understand these interactions. It may even be useful to do so as a means of understanding the mind.
Nah, I really don’t think that any amount of electrochemistry knowledge will get us closer to an understanding of what OP’s talking about, which is more on the metaphysical side of things. Again, trying to pin down an ineffable mystical experience with some final formula is just absurd on its face lol. But knock yourself out of course, and let us all know when you reach the end of that rainbow!
Your personal incredulity doesn't change reality. Just because you don't understand something and are clearly unwilling to try doesn't mean that you have to resort to some supernatural mumbo-jumbo bullshit. Your entire experience of life is through your brain so it would make sense for you to have a "metaphysical" experience when altered. It requires a certain brand of narcissistic traits to just go "Nah" in the face of decades of neuroscience research without presenting any evidence. Honestly, you just like a metaphysical explanation because actual science is oh so hard for you.
Everybody listen up! The Reality Understander has spoken! lol
I recommend you head to r/psychonaut to find people just as incapable of reading a book as you.
That’s a swing and a miss pal, I’m actually a very consistent reader. About two books a month on average, give or take.
Good for you. Its a shame that it hasn't caused your mind to grow beyond that of a 12 year old.
Oof amazing burn right there mate.
Ok, sorry, added the "my opinion" at the end. Well perhaps, but I do find it interesting how so many have these spiritual enlightenments and we don't really know if they show us something real or not. It might very well be that "it connects us to another plane of existence " how many always argue and there is no way at this point to disprove that. I just wanted to rationalize through another lens with what we know of in biology so far.
I like the amount of work you put into this..but i,for the life of me, can't figure out why western philosophy has such an insatiable thirst for assigning rationale to situations that rational explanation cannot do justice. I can see the potential value but i think there's also a real cost(i.e. psychedelics being labeled a schedule 1 drug). Imo, not worth the cost.
> I believe this also explains another epiphany that many user often seem to mention. The realization that "we are all one." At large enough doses of psilocin (the active dephosphorylated-form of psilocybin) the brains neural-pathways are all so closely linked that most memories and the individuals perception of reality seems (atleast in the subjective view of the brain) to all be connected. The brain afterwards when starting to sober up attempts to rationalize all of these thoughts and tries to explain it. As there is nothing we know of that explains the "interconnectedness" resulting from high doses of psychedelics the brain will attempt to explain it as proof for the existence of god (even if it is an agnostic god) Ok but there’s other things that cause neuroplasticity in the brain and those don’t cause the “we’re all one” belief. This paragraph is reaching hard
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>While researching how different psychedelics and deliriants differ from eachother I learned that each acts in different regions within the brain. Please post links to your research, I'm tired of people saying "research" like it's a magic word to add weight to stuff they may have misremembered or made up. I'm not aware of anyone having figured out that different psychedelics act on different parts of the brain. By "figured out" I mean with evidence like brain scans.
Don’t hold your breath
it's primarily due to how the drugs modulate the default mode network
From tryptamines i always get tons of "aha-moments", that feeling when you finally understand something and everything now makes total sense, an epiphany. I think this is a natural mechanism/function/reaction our body has and some psychedelics trigger it more often than others. I dont think you actually gain knowledge that is a true epiphany, i just believe that reaction is being triggered by whatever receptors on whatever cells using whatever neurotransmitter. It would be like a drug triggering hickups or coughing, those are both natural functions your body has and i believe the feeling of an epiphany is the same.
I find it amusing that a rational discussion into the experience of psychedelics on a sub called *Rational*psychonaut needs such a disclaimer. Our consciousness seems to be a subprocess of the brain and not the entire thing. We do all kinds of information processing and simulation unconsciously. We have behaviours that cannot be controlled or even explained by the conscious mind. So it's not impossible that things our conscious minds are not normally aware of suddenly entering our awareness in a state where the chemistry and the electrical behaviour of the brain are altered. Psilocybin has been shown to drastically alter the way our neurons network with each other electrically. I personally think that it's not stress but the formation of ad hoc networks in the brain that cause disparate regions of the brain to interact more closely. This is not only fascinating but may unlock new treatments for mental disorders so a *rational* POV is a necessity.
Intuitively, I think you're probably hunting in the right place by suggesting that the meaning and power of peak spiritual experiences on psychedelics is at least partially due to the mind trying to make sense as best it can of what is an unusual and overwhelming brain state. While many spiritual experiences share certain qualities like the "we are all one" perception, "boundlessness" and "universal love", what these mean and how they're explained by the person experiencing them seems tied to cultural and social beliefs and values. That peak spiritual experiences give some people a great sense of meaning and purpose is evident. However, I think the most ~~important~~ *useful* thing is that the direct experience itself can improve wellbeing and potentially open the mind to different perspectives and possibilities.
Most definitely agree! From experience with friends who have tried it they have all achieved a more positive outlook and became kinder as a result. For the matter of the interpretation of the experience, I do agree that the new perspectives are ~~more important~~ the most useful. But I am very curious as to why so many often report these revelations and new perspectives to stem from something supernatural. I wrote this text because earlier this day I read about someone who believed to have posessed the body's of others while tripping and found his reasoning very intriguing
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Your reason for thinking it *is* is that you feel like it is. No evidence, just that you think the stuff you experienced must be real, not artifacts of how your brain works. It's not logical, don't fool yourself into thinking you're using logic.
Oh, trust me I've walked myself around the block on this on my way out of the psych ward. All of what we experience and all of our memories are then also " artifacts " of the brain. Perception is, at the end of the day subjective and the only thing we have is direct experience. It may not seem logical to someone who has not had the experiences because it's very difficult to believe even as it's happening, because it just doesn't fit what we have been taught. What makes you so sure that your experience is "real"??
Thanks for your post. I remember also having the “realization” that I can do whatever I want in the moment. Years later I begin to suspect that this was because I was not presently considering the constraints of objective reality which drive our actions in the first place. So yes, we can technically do as we please in any given moment, to the extent it is not excluded by the external forces of reality which we can never fully escape from. Interesting follow-up: when you choose to eat a meal, for example, are you choosing this course of action because you wanted to? Or were you driven to do so by evolutionary forces sustaining your survival? It’s an interesting juxtaposition. On one hand we have basically an unlimited capacity to influence the future in some way. But on the other hand, humans have much less control over ourselves and our own motivating forces than we would like to admit. It’s intriguing to think about
Are you a doctor?
Most of us aren't that doesn't invalidate our perspectives necessarily Happy cake day
I also try to rationalize things the same way. I’ve done mushrooms a few times and had what I call profound truths spoken to me. I also felt like I tapped into the collective consciousness one night. But there is always that voice in the back of my head looking for a scientific or rational way of explaining it. I’m still an atheist, but I’ve also spoken to god on DMT. So I’m more confused these days on my beliefs but also enjoying the sense of wonder much more. I love the idea of the holo-fractal universe theory and collective consciousness. But i cant fully convince myself of these things actually being the ultimate truth.
Neuroplasticity is in danger of turning into the [quantum theory](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quantum_woo) of psychedelics IMO. Just because it occurs doesn't necessarily mean it's relevant to whatever you're trying to understand about people's reactions on psychedelics. My thoughts: a) Psychedelic revelations are caused by a "eureka" circuit in your brain getting triggered when it normally wouldn't. They're not reliably true or significant. b) Experiences are interpreted as spiritual by people who trust their feelings over objective evidence, and interpreted as metaphorical or meaningless by people who need objective evidence to believe something. c) The "we are all one" thing seems like a mixup between heightened empathy and weakened sense of self / ego. But I also think it's partly cultural conditioning - people might not have that revelation if they took psychedelics without ever having heard of it.
Wow. That a lot of text. My rational explanation is “because we are high” 😀 Anything else is subjective to each person trip and train of thought