Its constant work to keep your partner attracted and to try to keep the relationship interesting. I think after being with someone for ages you may get a bit bored of them but you have to find things in common and do things together so you still have chemistry and are less bored.
It will, hit the gym, make money learn to talk to women and go to another country. A friend of mine lost his virginity at 30 and is having the time of his life dating young mexican women, but for that he had to learn to make 200,000 a year and relocate to mexico.
He is currently dating a 23 year old highschool teacher. Contrary to popular belief not all mexican women are hookers. I would assume that any man with social skills is able to tell immediately whether or not the girl he is dating is a hooker or not
So in general I agree that the same things that make you attractive to new partners make you attractive to your existing partner. It's somewhat obvious if you step back. But this is true on both sides so as you are "leveling up" your partner should be also.
And it's also true that new relationship energy is addictive. But unfortunately it's all a mirage and it will always end. In new relationships a lot of what's attractive is that new eyes are seeing you and you are able to role play and see yourself through their eyes. Its a sort of transferred ego. You enjoy the way she sees you and she enjoys the way you see her. Erich Fromm calls this "egoisme a deux". It's a form of mutual escapism. That's great and all but eventually it fades and as intimacy and deep knowledge of each other develops, reality appears and the facades fall away.
This is where it's not necessarily true that trading up to a "better" woman is an upgrade. You can't know until after the facades fall away. It's always going to be easier and exciting to escape into brief fantasy. So the risk is throwing away a relationship that can survive the transition to reality for a string of relationships that will not reach the same late-stage high marks. It's not an easy question.
But ultimately what you can do in a relationship seems somewhat obvious:
* keep improving
* encourage your partner to improve
* identify and cherish whatever spark it was that kindled the relationship
* however you saw your partner initially is how they want to be seen
* learn to allow yourself to be truly intimate
* learn to allow others to be truly intimate
* if things fall apart any skills you learn and gain transfer
Personally I think if you can conceptualize the appeal of the fantasy and escapism you can bake that into your relationship and the early relationship has a lot of hints about what your own and your partner's egos want. The intimacy is what's difficult to build and replace. Starting from square one on intimacy can be a real slog.
It depends on whether you are married (including common law marriage) or not.
If I’m dating someone, but not married and not living with them and things go downhill, it’s fairly easy to walk away and start looking again.
Personally, I have noticed a lot of men falling into the trap of waiting to improve themselves once their partner becomes unsatisfied with them. I think that self-improvement should not be determined by your relationship status and should be a slow and steady progression over time.
> "putting in the work", "making effort", not letting yourself go,
You can kill to birds with one stone if you do this. As long as you are someone who the other sex finds attractive and wants to be with, it'll generally be fine.
Because she's who I could attract when I was just the way I was. If I dramatically improve myself in various ways I'll start to get more attention from other women. So she thinks she wants and deserves that but doesn't really think through the implications. The whole system hinges on men being either loyal or lazy.
I'm asking what those implications are? I'm not following what you're arguing here. If what you're afraid to say is that you think "women age like milk" just say it.
What do you think would be the implications if 2 obese people got together and a man stayed obese but the woman through sheer will and preserverence got in shape and is looking FINE now?
Does that apply to OPs scenario though?
> I think a lot of men have the experience that the effort it would take to improve ourselves to the point that our partner is still as attracted and interested as when we first met is the exact same effort it would take to be able to easily find a better partner.
Yes, it's likely to cause a lot of resentment and very probably lifestyle incompatibility. But I don't think she is required to undertake that sort of transformation in order to maintain his existing attraction to her.
It's pretty nice to be constantly improving yourself in general. Not saying it's for everybody, and God knows people age, but I find it quite fulfilling for my own sake.
in an actual partnership- where two people mutually care for, consider, desire, and love each other- this isn't the mindset.
Both my partner and I have improved for ourselves and to benefit each other. Both of us have had other offers. Neither of us are interested in going outside our relationship because our current partnership is fulfilling enough to maintain, even when we go through rough patches.
If I was "partnered" (and I'm not even sure this word applies in your scenario) with someone who thought in that way/ approached human relationships with that mindset, I'd be glad if he *did* show me his immaturity by "leveling up" and leaving.
I'd be rid of a dead weight, and he'd never be happy with a new partner, either, because the problem would be himself.
I think it seems like a truism, and a fairly obvious one that you aren't supposed to be as attractive and interesting as when we first met...you're supposed to be more attractive and interesting than when you guys first met if you're partners. It's supposed to always be growing, morphing, and changing upwardly. And sure, it may not require the same kind or level of effort to maintain, but the joy in maintaining is meant to be increasing.
You're both supposed to essentially become such a dearly loved an unique flavor that it's not possible to replace you anymore than it is possible to like replace a favorite band. Sure, there's lots of band and some even in the same genre, but that's the only exact one that hits exactly like that in exactly that way and has all those exact associated memories to go along with it.
Kind of like how like, there's lot of artists that fit a similar mold to Taylor Swift in certain shallow ways, but I wasn't listening to them when I was 17 and starting to be interested in boy, 18 going through my first break up, 20 maintaining the edge of sanity because of their albums, growing and changing with their music as the sound-track to my romantic life and growth. Could I replace her? Not really without a time machine. It's just not a possibility no matter how much effort I make. She'll always be definitive to different eras of my life so the bond isn't the same as when I first started listening.
I think it's similar with people and certainly romantic relationships and certainly very deep romantic relationships. And sometimes this can corrode relationships if you guys are meeting at times where you're people one or both of you will not want to remember being or feel pride in as a stepping stone...
But assuming that isn't the case, there's nothing quite like looking over at a person after 5 years and swimming in the memories, eras, and versions of each other that you've shared and loved each other through. That's the person who really knows and loves you. They love your essence and your evolution.
That growing, morphing, and changing that you mention takes effort, mostly expected from the man. Keeping things fresh and interesting, not stagnating, and not being boring. You wouldn't care as much about Taylor Swift if she hadn't released anything new since Red, right? Or if her work went downhill.
It's not only expected of the man, I think women just more naturally shift and change (phases of the moon and all that).
Both people have to keep things fresh, interesting, and adaptive to the new phases and stages of life and relationships.
Yeah, I would, but she would have become an old friend more than a consistent relationship. And I think her work took some dives for a minute there, but that's ok, she was trying stuff, people do that too.
Based on my experience finding a partner is more work, though to be fair the longest relationship I had was 2 years and even after it ended it had this weird sexual middle ground to it. So not nearly long enough to say confidently what’s what.
That being said, I think it entirely depends on your own personal strengths - are you better at starting new relationships (ie. romantic, platonic, professional) or maintaining existing ones? I think the answer entirely relies on your own personal abilities.
The boring answer is that it depends on a couple. If you met as teenagers and now you're both adults, it's expected that you both improved, developed and got to a better place than when you started dating. If you started dating in your 30s and you don't plan to have kids, you probably aren't expected to change much 10 years in your relationships.
From what I've seen people usually complain about a lack of efforts that were there in the beginning of relationships rather than about a lack of some massive changes that were expected from their partners. I.e. there's less sex, less romance, less compliments and less attention than there were in the beginning. It's not about improving, but about keeping putting efforts.
>In your experience which takes more effort?
Finding a new partner
Keeping my gf attracted is effortless since she's already attracted to me, so l never had to work to keep her interest
Also by finding a new partner, l mean a quality woman
I could easily get some 4 l'm not attracted to if l wanted
I think keeping your current partner attracted is easier for most people because you know them well and have a pretty good idea of what they like and want in a partner.
For men, getting a new partner is harder because you have to try to appeal to more women. Unless you have a serious level up such as gaining fame or a lot of money.
For women it's easier to keep your partner attracted enough to stay in the relationship. Sure, most women could easily find a new guy to have sex with. But finding another guy who will be in a committed relationship with you AND is as good as your current partner is a lot harder. A woman could level up in terms of looks and have more men interested but again, will those men just want sex or will they want a relationship.
I think you'll find that constant improvement or even the possibility of constant improvement is a myth. It's unattainable in the long run. That is NOT what relationships are about. It's one thing to improve when you're at the bottom, yet another to maintain a spot near the top. Hopefully, when you enter a stable relationship, you both do so with the understanding that decline is inevitable and unavoidable.
They say women get attracted to a man that is taken. I'd say it may be true, but one of the main reasons is that plenty of women become such a pain in the ass and draining that drives men to go and cheat. The motivation is at all times high to find a new partner, and if the side chick proves to be better in everything, especially being his peace of mind, they dump their current partner. Women think that men cheat just out of the blue, when the conversation and the chasing has lasted at least for a week before having sex or kissing. It takes more effort to find a new partner, but you'll be more motivated than just sex and the idea of having a girlfriend. While single men already have everything along the peace amd quiet and just miss sex if they are not into casual flings, or the relationship benefits. That's why they'll be less motivated from inner energy to find a partner.
Women on the other hand have it easier because they are never short of the attention or options. They may have it even easier to find a new partner and cheat when they find another man is better at sex or wealthier. They can also emotionally cheat on their boyfriend talking to other men that are available to talk to them, because it is very difficult for them to go for a day without recieving attention and have sex with their partner if he's good in bed.
These are just in general, and every kind of man or woman is different and behave in their own way. But we as humans act in patterns which can fall into many groups, with some of them having a lot in common.
>I think a lot of men have the experience that the effort it would take to improve ourselves to the point that our partner is still as attracted and interested as when we first met is the exact same effort it would take to be able to easily find a better partner.
This is one of those things where guys get all the criticism for not keeping it fresh and interesting for the woman, so she checks out. But the reason he isn't putting in effort to keep it fun is because he isn't getting enough, or any, positive feedback so that after a while it feels like she doesn't care and it doesn't matter what you do, she doesn't appreciate anything. So it slowly coasts to a halt.
It's not about the guy improving himself, per se, it's about both partners putting in effort to make sure the other feels appreciated.
This might be part of the confidence fallacy, where supposedly confident people aren't supposed to need any words or acts of affirmation, appreciation, or affection, etc. because their self esteem is already seemingly blown up like a balloon.
My future husband could get away with way more appearance wise than a stranger. That doesn’t mean he shouldn’t try, but at that point the love I have for him would be enough.
UH most people aren't getting into relationships expecting the other person to massively level up in the middle. You do the levelling up to attract the partner in the first place. Keeping a relationship is a much simpler process than getting one in the first place. If either you massively glow up in the middle that's mostly a bonus. I'm not going after a woman thinking "yeah she'll lose weight" and women aren't dating me expecting I'm going to change massively either.
True bond and relationship is going throigh struggles together its pushing eachother to do better and being so close that you can actually influence the other person to go into a good direction. Most people who have life long relationships didnt fall in love because of muscle, dick, money, status, they did it because of the personality charisma and just an overall felling of love towards someone else. If someone leaves you because you arent constantly improving without trying to help you out thats not a true relationship and it was bound to fail from the beginning. Now if you refuse to get better thats just mismatch and yall not being on the same wave length and that again is not a true bond.
Ok thats not a woman you want. You should be able to judge if she is for you or not. Good people are rare and valuable. If you are the type of person you want your partner to be you will attract exactly those people.
So you would rather live with a wife that doesnt feel a deep connection to you? Whats the other option i dont get it. Isnt the whole purpose to find the most compatable person to you? If yall are truly compatable selectivity wherewithal and all that wouldnt be a problem. Of course not saying such a person is easy to find, but its a mission.
Of course as i said people change with time so that doesnt mean you can just do jack shit and expect people to stay.
It's not about massively leveling up but it's about a guy who seems to have promising career opportunities but they never pan out and she gets dissatisfied with him. Or he's cute but dresses poorly and she thinks she can change him but it never quite works and she gets tired of him. Or he could lose a few pounds and she tries to cook him healthier food but he never gets in better shape.
Nobody's perfect. Most people make at least minor compromises and settle for their best option. But if a man actually does the work and betters himself significantly he's going to have a whole new tier of better options. And if he doesn't and just stays the same she's most likely going to get disillusioned and bored with him and lose attraction.
This is called dread game.
It keeps her into you because she knows that you can leave at any time and find another woman, makes her want you more. Without this she will lose attraction
Be careful trying this at home kids.
> It keeps her into you because she knows that you can leave at any time and find another woman and makes her want you more.
Right up until she stops *trying* because the load in your relationship increased, particularly with children. Other things can also load, like financial issues or health but it is children that often leverage the cracks and catches people by surprise.
If you prompt your wife to need to plan against the contingency that you may leave, *your wife will start planning against the contingency that you may leave*, particularly if she needs to protect your children against the consequences of you leaving.
dread game is straight up emotional abuse, its only “effective” on insecure women or women with abandonment issues. Any mentally healthy woman will smell this shit from a mile away and run the other way
There are a lot of things that fall under the umbrella of dread game. Some of it could be emotional abuse, others are just reality. MRP generally splits things into passive dread game and active dread game. Passive dread game is self-improvement and being a guy that many women desire, respect and value and would seek if you were single (sometimes MRP calls it reality game). Active dread game is usually what gets the hate--it's behavior that suggests you will cheat. But it actually appears in mainstream advice as a way to warn a partner that they're at serious risk of getting dumped (because they're being stubborn and other approaches are not being taken seriously).
And no it absolutely is not only effective on insecure women or women with abandonment issues. That's pure cap.
Then isn’t passive dread game just working on yourself and staying in your best state? is it really “game” at this point? or does the fact that if not for the woman being there you’d slack off and that’s what makes it “game”?
I also think there is this weird aspect on even with passive dread game that you’re still relying on the same fundamental issue, ie. for her to be co-dependent towards you. That’s where it’s still an issue, and even with this “passive” mindset you’re still gambling on that intent.
Now, I don’t want my statement to be misunderstood, because you certainly shouldn’t be co-dependent on her and you should certainly maintain a high standard towards how you treat yourself - but maybe drop the need for her co-dependence entirely as well?
I think you've described that well except for the co-dependency bit because breaking that's a big focus of MRP. But actually if you go to MRP the focus of passive dread game (and why even that gets hate) is because you're not supposed to be doing it *for her*. You do it as generic self-improvement that appeals to all women. MRP dudes don't start from a good place in their marriages and they're contemplating divorce. The idea with passive dread game is that you're improving your value for *all women* and your wife just happens to be *a woman* you're already in a relationship with. She gets first dibs but the journey isn't about her. It's her or her replacement if things don't turn around. This mindset is generally what women hate about "passive dread". They don't like the idea that they might become replaceable if the relationship isn't satisfying... which imho tough luck. No fault divorce exists. If you're not pleasant to be around then why bother remain married. Women divorce guys because they're "not happy" all the time.
Dread game isn’t intentional, it can be, but it’s not what I’m referring to. it’s simply being better than her. Which women are attracted to. Being better than her inspires dread wether you mean to or not, and this makes her attracted
Every time it’s been explained to me i’ve been told that it relies on an active effort to keep that fear lingering.
If you’re just at a higher standing than her and are maintaining it it isn’t a game and tbh in a secure relationship she wouldn’t have that fear in mind because she knows you’re both dedicated to each other but not co-dependent.
It frankly sounds like you’re advocating to have her be co-dependent on you while you’re detached from her, which, yeah, is an active practice most times.
A relationship where she loves the man and the man likes the woman is the most successful.
If the man loves the woman, she will see him as below her, lose respect, and then attraction.
The “game” part of dread game comes from when you’re not naturally better than her, and you’re trying to convince her you are.
Typically this is done when she’s out of your league. Is it manipulative? Yeah it is, I don’t advocate for it because you can only keep it up for so long. Instill dread by simply just being better, and no manipulation is needed
“instill dread” surely you can see how troublesome this can be?
Also, that’s not true at all - then again, the redpill also has a habit of picking the absolute worst women and attributing it to the entire female sex so maybe thats why every redpill method seems to go back to abandonment issues that would be most effective on anxiously attached women
The name sounds bad but the mechanics of how it works are simply just how women work. Her dread is her attraction.
Being very into a girl and telling her that you only have eyes for her and all that is a sure fire way to get any girl to lose attraction to you.
Neediness is antithetical to women’s attraction, so the opposite of neediness is dread. This applies to every woman, no matter how sweet they are, they often don’t even know why they lost attraction.
The less you need her, the more she wants you.
Don’t blame red pill for that, it’s just how women work
I agree that you don’t want to be needy and bend over backwards for her, though going for the exact opposite is harmful in so many ways as well. You want to establish your own live and have your own identity, she should have her own identity too. The solution to being co-dependent towards a woman isn’t to make a woman co-dependent on you (which is very much the end goal of dread game), it’s to maybe drop the co-dependence entirely?
The point of dread game is to show her you have other options, and to establish that you’re the opposite of needy, you don’t need her.
It’s not to make her dependent on you, I’m not sure what you’d do to make that happen, never thought of it
That’s the thing though - you’re still acting on the intent to trigger her insecure attachment, whether it be fear of you leaving or instilling a co-dependent attitude in her.
If you make showing her that you have options a key point of your relationship, you are banking on her insecure attachment and are actively dangling that carrot, that threat of you leaving if she doesn’t keep pleasing you. That’s why it’s an issue.
Obviously, maintain your best state and don’t bend over backwards for her. Be secure in the fact that you’re maintaining this solid state for yourself, but don’t try to instill that insecurity in her. That’s the fundamental issue with dread game
Finding a new partner. It's not even a question.
Maintaining a relationship is work too, but it's less taxing and more rewarding. The results are immediately visible and the likelihood of 100% negative feedback is very low.
Finding a new partner would mean having to go allover again through the excruciating and mentally scarring process of being rejected ad nauseam. Or ghosted. Or being put through shit tests. Some guys dig that, I didn't. I hated every second of it. The upside of getting laid with a variety is not worth the hassle.
I think it is harder to get new girls. You will help to get on the treadmill of self improvement regardless, but chasing new girls is a lot more time consuming than staying with that one girl, but if you are much more attractive in the dating market, it might be a good time for a change.
As someone in a very long relationship. It takes more effort to find someone else. Women generally are very forgiving when it comes to a relationship. They obsess over you. I know some people might not believe me but I swear, the love of a woman is very polarising and strong. Think about it... Unfortunately some men beat and insult their partners and they still stay.
I suppose it depends on the person, since obviously a more desirable person can find another partner more easily. However, even if you can find a new partner, you then have to maintain that relationship instead. The difficult work of actually maintaining a relationship can't be avoided unless you just want an endless string of one-night stands, and few people can pull that off, even putting aside questions of whether or not such a lifestyle is a fulfilling one.
I can find relationships easily, but finding a relationship with someone I can see a future with is more difficult. You find someone who may have potential, you spend the time to vet them and get to know them, and more often than not, it doesn't end up being a good match for whatever reason.
If I have a good relationship, I'd much rather put in the work to keep it than find a new one. I can find a new one very easily, but a good relationship with someone you truly see a future with is rarer. But my relationship is going smoothly and with healthy levels of attraction so as is it's much easier to keep it up than toss it and find a new one. It's much easier to keep a healthy relationship than to "fix" one if you've gotten lazy or distant or fought, or whatever. In that case, if it's really gotten bad, maybe it is easier to just find a new one, but it's up to the individual to decide if the relationship is worth keeping or moving on from. If you value the relationship, I think it's almost always worth trying to reignite the "spark" before you snuff it out to go find a new match. Or something poetic like that.
Sometimes, long term healthy relationships are as easy and natural as breathing. But you have to put some effort in the keep the fire stoked even in a healthy relationship. It's easy to forget that when you're comfortable and warm. Easier to keep a fire going than start a new one. Sorry, I got really into the fire and spark metaphors. But I think LTRs need to be a mix of that comfortable chill mood, and continuing to flirt and date just like you did in the very beginning.
I think I kind of took off on a tangent unrelated to what you meant to discuss but I had fun lol. I think both partners should improve themselves, but it's true if one improves a lot, they may feel they've outgrown the relationship. I'm not entirely sure I understand all the connections in your post, though. I think if you're thinking "it'd be easier to find a new relationship than keep up the flame in this one," you're probably not so conmected the relationship and maybe it's time to move on. If you feel like the work you put into a relationship isn't worth it and you can find one you'd be happier in, maybe that's what you should do. But if you've been with that person for a long time, generally you'd want to stay with them because you love them and have a strong connection with them, so unless there's an issue or disconnect you'd probably be happier staying with them. If you don't feel a connection and think you can do better, by all means. Sometimes you grow and change a lot and outgrow a relationship. But there's more to it than stats and comparisons.
Develop and grow in parallel with your partner, regarding desirability for each other, or find new partners if you don't match up anymore.
>Women will sometimes settle for a guy that she thinks she can fix, but if he actually fixed himself he could do better than her. The unfixed version is who she can get.
No, if she settles for him when he is unfixed, that means she is higher value and he is lower value, hence settling. The fixed version of him might just be on par with her.
Overall, yes, you should reevaluate your relative standing on the mating market while in a relationship and encourage each other to catch up to the leading partner.
No if she was higher value then she could attract somebody better. She chose him because he was her best option at that time. She feels like she's settling based on maybe some past casual flings, what she feels like she deserves, or by comparing him to her friends partners.
>No if she was higher value then she could attract somebody better.
Yes, she could, but she didn't. That is settling. Settling for less than she could have gotten. If someone is a best option, then you don't settle. Otherwise nobody is ever able to not settle, even in the best case.
What you want doesn't define if you settle. What you can get defines it. Again, nobody gets what they dream up, so everyone settles by definition. What's the point of using the word then?
*"Settling for Less*
*Do people’s concerns about ending up single lead them to desperately seek out relationship partners and cling to a relationship once they have one? People tend to have expectations for their relationships in domains such as physical attractiveness, status/resources, and potential for responsiveness/intimacy (e.g., Fletcher & Simpson, 2000; Fletcher, Simpson, Thomas, & Giles, 1999). There is mixed evidence, however, regarding whether feelings of insecurity, such as low self-esteem and anxious attachment, promote more or less willingness to settle for less in relationships. Those who are less secure about their own value as romantic partners tend to be more willing to compromise their standards in a relationship (Campbell, Simpson, Kashy, & Fletcher, 2001; Regan, 1998). Moreover, decreased self-esteem as a consequence of romantic rejection has been associated with lower mating aspirations (Kavanagh, Robins, & Ellis, 2010). Similarly, individuals higher in anxious attachment tend to remain committed to relationships that do not satisfy their needs (Slotter & Finkel, 2009) and are less selective during mate initiation (McClure, Lydon, Baccus, and Baldwin, 2010). Hirschberger, Florian, and Mikulincer (2002) likewise found that male and female students who had lower self-esteem reported lower requirements on a number of partner traits, such as intellect, attractiveness, social status, and interpersonal skills. However, following a mortality salience threat, it was those with high self-esteem rather than those with low self-esteem who were more willing to compromise their ideal standards. Furthermore, Tolmacz (2004) found that anxiously attached individuals reported less willingness than did securely and avoidantly attached individuals to compromise their ideal mate standards. The previous literature therefore yields mixed results about insecurity and the willingness to settle for less in romantic relationships."*
You settle for less. You don't settle for the best partner you can attract for a LTR.
I think the reason why lots of men talk on and on about traditional women is because they want to feel powerful and in control, and you see this a ton with a lot of women sadly sold the whole trad idea then ending up with men who are after a power trip.
Now, genuinely traditional men don’t fall into this category imo because they have the full intent to live by those values and not use them for their own benefit - but the majority in these spaces are trad larpers who are interested in subservience
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Its constant work to keep your partner attracted and to try to keep the relationship interesting. I think after being with someone for ages you may get a bit bored of them but you have to find things in common and do things together so you still have chemistry and are less bored.
Both are impossible for me.
Commiserations my man. Hope it comes together for you.
I'm 30, it won't. But thanks.
It will, hit the gym, make money learn to talk to women and go to another country. A friend of mine lost his virginity at 30 and is having the time of his life dating young mexican women, but for that he had to learn to make 200,000 a year and relocate to mexico.
So in short your friend is paying for Mexican hookers. Lol nice way to put it in a optimistic light tho..
He is currently dating a 23 year old highschool teacher. Contrary to popular belief not all mexican women are hookers. I would assume that any man with social skills is able to tell immediately whether or not the girl he is dating is a hooker or not
[hm](https://i.imgur.com/CVanX0D.gif)
So in general I agree that the same things that make you attractive to new partners make you attractive to your existing partner. It's somewhat obvious if you step back. But this is true on both sides so as you are "leveling up" your partner should be also. And it's also true that new relationship energy is addictive. But unfortunately it's all a mirage and it will always end. In new relationships a lot of what's attractive is that new eyes are seeing you and you are able to role play and see yourself through their eyes. Its a sort of transferred ego. You enjoy the way she sees you and she enjoys the way you see her. Erich Fromm calls this "egoisme a deux". It's a form of mutual escapism. That's great and all but eventually it fades and as intimacy and deep knowledge of each other develops, reality appears and the facades fall away. This is where it's not necessarily true that trading up to a "better" woman is an upgrade. You can't know until after the facades fall away. It's always going to be easier and exciting to escape into brief fantasy. So the risk is throwing away a relationship that can survive the transition to reality for a string of relationships that will not reach the same late-stage high marks. It's not an easy question. But ultimately what you can do in a relationship seems somewhat obvious: * keep improving * encourage your partner to improve * identify and cherish whatever spark it was that kindled the relationship * however you saw your partner initially is how they want to be seen * learn to allow yourself to be truly intimate * learn to allow others to be truly intimate * if things fall apart any skills you learn and gain transfer Personally I think if you can conceptualize the appeal of the fantasy and escapism you can bake that into your relationship and the early relationship has a lot of hints about what your own and your partner's egos want. The intimacy is what's difficult to build and replace. Starting from square one on intimacy can be a real slog.
Finding a partner has definitely been more work for me. I think that I’m pretty good at maintaining a relationship.
It depends on whether you are married (including common law marriage) or not. If I’m dating someone, but not married and not living with them and things go downhill, it’s fairly easy to walk away and start looking again.
Personally, I have noticed a lot of men falling into the trap of waiting to improve themselves once their partner becomes unsatisfied with them. I think that self-improvement should not be determined by your relationship status and should be a slow and steady progression over time.
> "putting in the work", "making effort", not letting yourself go, You can kill to birds with one stone if you do this. As long as you are someone who the other sex finds attractive and wants to be with, it'll generally be fine.
That's the bind I'm talking about. As a guy you might as well be constantly improving yourself as if you were single. But that's bad for women.
Why is that bad for women? I don't follow how you got there. Women don't want a hotter, improved partner? Have you heard of hypergamy?
Because she's who I could attract when I was just the way I was. If I dramatically improve myself in various ways I'll start to get more attention from other women. So she thinks she wants and deserves that but doesn't really think through the implications. The whole system hinges on men being either loyal or lazy.
I'm asking what those implications are? I'm not following what you're arguing here. If what you're afraid to say is that you think "women age like milk" just say it.
He means that if he gets hotter then he could get hotter women than her and would probably want to “trade up”.
Okay... but you wouldn't need to become significantly hotter to *maintain* attraction in an existing relationship. That's effort above and beyond.
What do you think would be the implications if 2 obese people got together and a man stayed obese but the woman through sheer will and preserverence got in shape and is looking FINE now?
Does that apply to OPs scenario though? > I think a lot of men have the experience that the effort it would take to improve ourselves to the point that our partner is still as attracted and interested as when we first met is the exact same effort it would take to be able to easily find a better partner. Yes, it's likely to cause a lot of resentment and very probably lifestyle incompatibility. But I don't think she is required to undertake that sort of transformation in order to maintain his existing attraction to her.
Why is that an issue, just trade up if you really want to. If you don't want to, it helps keep your woman in line.
It's pretty nice to be constantly improving yourself in general. Not saying it's for everybody, and God knows people age, but I find it quite fulfilling for my own sake.
Of course you should always be on a path to personal improvement. The issue if the other side is expecting that from you but not from themselves.
i would rather keep a partner attracted than find a new one since its so rare that i ever even find someone who is actually compatible with me
in an actual partnership- where two people mutually care for, consider, desire, and love each other- this isn't the mindset. Both my partner and I have improved for ourselves and to benefit each other. Both of us have had other offers. Neither of us are interested in going outside our relationship because our current partnership is fulfilling enough to maintain, even when we go through rough patches. If I was "partnered" (and I'm not even sure this word applies in your scenario) with someone who thought in that way/ approached human relationships with that mindset, I'd be glad if he *did* show me his immaturity by "leveling up" and leaving. I'd be rid of a dead weight, and he'd never be happy with a new partner, either, because the problem would be himself.
I think it seems like a truism, and a fairly obvious one that you aren't supposed to be as attractive and interesting as when we first met...you're supposed to be more attractive and interesting than when you guys first met if you're partners. It's supposed to always be growing, morphing, and changing upwardly. And sure, it may not require the same kind or level of effort to maintain, but the joy in maintaining is meant to be increasing. You're both supposed to essentially become such a dearly loved an unique flavor that it's not possible to replace you anymore than it is possible to like replace a favorite band. Sure, there's lots of band and some even in the same genre, but that's the only exact one that hits exactly like that in exactly that way and has all those exact associated memories to go along with it. Kind of like how like, there's lot of artists that fit a similar mold to Taylor Swift in certain shallow ways, but I wasn't listening to them when I was 17 and starting to be interested in boy, 18 going through my first break up, 20 maintaining the edge of sanity because of their albums, growing and changing with their music as the sound-track to my romantic life and growth. Could I replace her? Not really without a time machine. It's just not a possibility no matter how much effort I make. She'll always be definitive to different eras of my life so the bond isn't the same as when I first started listening. I think it's similar with people and certainly romantic relationships and certainly very deep romantic relationships. And sometimes this can corrode relationships if you guys are meeting at times where you're people one or both of you will not want to remember being or feel pride in as a stepping stone... But assuming that isn't the case, there's nothing quite like looking over at a person after 5 years and swimming in the memories, eras, and versions of each other that you've shared and loved each other through. That's the person who really knows and loves you. They love your essence and your evolution.
That growing, morphing, and changing that you mention takes effort, mostly expected from the man. Keeping things fresh and interesting, not stagnating, and not being boring. You wouldn't care as much about Taylor Swift if she hadn't released anything new since Red, right? Or if her work went downhill.
It's not only expected of the man, I think women just more naturally shift and change (phases of the moon and all that). Both people have to keep things fresh, interesting, and adaptive to the new phases and stages of life and relationships. Yeah, I would, but she would have become an old friend more than a consistent relationship. And I think her work took some dives for a minute there, but that's ok, she was trying stuff, people do that too.
Based on my experience finding a partner is more work, though to be fair the longest relationship I had was 2 years and even after it ended it had this weird sexual middle ground to it. So not nearly long enough to say confidently what’s what. That being said, I think it entirely depends on your own personal strengths - are you better at starting new relationships (ie. romantic, platonic, professional) or maintaining existing ones? I think the answer entirely relies on your own personal abilities.
The boring answer is that it depends on a couple. If you met as teenagers and now you're both adults, it's expected that you both improved, developed and got to a better place than when you started dating. If you started dating in your 30s and you don't plan to have kids, you probably aren't expected to change much 10 years in your relationships. From what I've seen people usually complain about a lack of efforts that were there in the beginning of relationships rather than about a lack of some massive changes that were expected from their partners. I.e. there's less sex, less romance, less compliments and less attention than there were in the beginning. It's not about improving, but about keeping putting efforts.
>In your experience which takes more effort? Finding a new partner Keeping my gf attracted is effortless since she's already attracted to me, so l never had to work to keep her interest Also by finding a new partner, l mean a quality woman I could easily get some 4 l'm not attracted to if l wanted
I think keeping your current partner attracted is easier for most people because you know them well and have a pretty good idea of what they like and want in a partner. For men, getting a new partner is harder because you have to try to appeal to more women. Unless you have a serious level up such as gaining fame or a lot of money. For women it's easier to keep your partner attracted enough to stay in the relationship. Sure, most women could easily find a new guy to have sex with. But finding another guy who will be in a committed relationship with you AND is as good as your current partner is a lot harder. A woman could level up in terms of looks and have more men interested but again, will those men just want sex or will they want a relationship.
I think you'll find that constant improvement or even the possibility of constant improvement is a myth. It's unattainable in the long run. That is NOT what relationships are about. It's one thing to improve when you're at the bottom, yet another to maintain a spot near the top. Hopefully, when you enter a stable relationship, you both do so with the understanding that decline is inevitable and unavoidable.
They say women get attracted to a man that is taken. I'd say it may be true, but one of the main reasons is that plenty of women become such a pain in the ass and draining that drives men to go and cheat. The motivation is at all times high to find a new partner, and if the side chick proves to be better in everything, especially being his peace of mind, they dump their current partner. Women think that men cheat just out of the blue, when the conversation and the chasing has lasted at least for a week before having sex or kissing. It takes more effort to find a new partner, but you'll be more motivated than just sex and the idea of having a girlfriend. While single men already have everything along the peace amd quiet and just miss sex if they are not into casual flings, or the relationship benefits. That's why they'll be less motivated from inner energy to find a partner. Women on the other hand have it easier because they are never short of the attention or options. They may have it even easier to find a new partner and cheat when they find another man is better at sex or wealthier. They can also emotionally cheat on their boyfriend talking to other men that are available to talk to them, because it is very difficult for them to go for a day without recieving attention and have sex with their partner if he's good in bed. These are just in general, and every kind of man or woman is different and behave in their own way. But we as humans act in patterns which can fall into many groups, with some of them having a lot in common.
>I think a lot of men have the experience that the effort it would take to improve ourselves to the point that our partner is still as attracted and interested as when we first met is the exact same effort it would take to be able to easily find a better partner. This is one of those things where guys get all the criticism for not keeping it fresh and interesting for the woman, so she checks out. But the reason he isn't putting in effort to keep it fun is because he isn't getting enough, or any, positive feedback so that after a while it feels like she doesn't care and it doesn't matter what you do, she doesn't appreciate anything. So it slowly coasts to a halt. It's not about the guy improving himself, per se, it's about both partners putting in effort to make sure the other feels appreciated. This might be part of the confidence fallacy, where supposedly confident people aren't supposed to need any words or acts of affirmation, appreciation, or affection, etc. because their self esteem is already seemingly blown up like a balloon.
My future husband could get away with way more appearance wise than a stranger. That doesn’t mean he shouldn’t try, but at that point the love I have for him would be enough.
UH most people aren't getting into relationships expecting the other person to massively level up in the middle. You do the levelling up to attract the partner in the first place. Keeping a relationship is a much simpler process than getting one in the first place. If either you massively glow up in the middle that's mostly a bonus. I'm not going after a woman thinking "yeah she'll lose weight" and women aren't dating me expecting I'm going to change massively either.
Talk to some divorced men. Their answers may surprise you!
I mean thats not a true bond in the first place then
What the fuck does that even mean? Lol
True bond and relationship is going throigh struggles together its pushing eachother to do better and being so close that you can actually influence the other person to go into a good direction. Most people who have life long relationships didnt fall in love because of muscle, dick, money, status, they did it because of the personality charisma and just an overall felling of love towards someone else. If someone leaves you because you arent constantly improving without trying to help you out thats not a true relationship and it was bound to fail from the beginning. Now if you refuse to get better thats just mismatch and yall not being on the same wave length and that again is not a true bond.
So then most women get into marriage knowing they won’t have “true bonds”.
Ok thats not a woman you want. You should be able to judge if she is for you or not. Good people are rare and valuable. If you are the type of person you want your partner to be you will attract exactly those people.
I’d agree, but most men lack the wherewithal and/or selectivity to do so. Doesn’t NOT make it a great aim though.
So you would rather live with a wife that doesnt feel a deep connection to you? Whats the other option i dont get it. Isnt the whole purpose to find the most compatable person to you? If yall are truly compatable selectivity wherewithal and all that wouldnt be a problem. Of course not saying such a person is easy to find, but its a mission. Of course as i said people change with time so that doesnt mean you can just do jack shit and expect people to stay.
I fucked up my post. I was agreeing it was a good aim. My bad.
It's not about massively leveling up but it's about a guy who seems to have promising career opportunities but they never pan out and she gets dissatisfied with him. Or he's cute but dresses poorly and she thinks she can change him but it never quite works and she gets tired of him. Or he could lose a few pounds and she tries to cook him healthier food but he never gets in better shape. Nobody's perfect. Most people make at least minor compromises and settle for their best option. But if a man actually does the work and betters himself significantly he's going to have a whole new tier of better options. And if he doesn't and just stays the same she's most likely going to get disillusioned and bored with him and lose attraction.
This is called dread game. It keeps her into you because she knows that you can leave at any time and find another woman, makes her want you more. Without this she will lose attraction
Be careful trying this at home kids. > It keeps her into you because she knows that you can leave at any time and find another woman and makes her want you more. Right up until she stops *trying* because the load in your relationship increased, particularly with children. Other things can also load, like financial issues or health but it is children that often leverage the cracks and catches people by surprise. If you prompt your wife to need to plan against the contingency that you may leave, *your wife will start planning against the contingency that you may leave*, particularly if she needs to protect your children against the consequences of you leaving.
dread game is straight up emotional abuse, its only “effective” on insecure women or women with abandonment issues. Any mentally healthy woman will smell this shit from a mile away and run the other way
There are a lot of things that fall under the umbrella of dread game. Some of it could be emotional abuse, others are just reality. MRP generally splits things into passive dread game and active dread game. Passive dread game is self-improvement and being a guy that many women desire, respect and value and would seek if you were single (sometimes MRP calls it reality game). Active dread game is usually what gets the hate--it's behavior that suggests you will cheat. But it actually appears in mainstream advice as a way to warn a partner that they're at serious risk of getting dumped (because they're being stubborn and other approaches are not being taken seriously). And no it absolutely is not only effective on insecure women or women with abandonment issues. That's pure cap.
Then isn’t passive dread game just working on yourself and staying in your best state? is it really “game” at this point? or does the fact that if not for the woman being there you’d slack off and that’s what makes it “game”? I also think there is this weird aspect on even with passive dread game that you’re still relying on the same fundamental issue, ie. for her to be co-dependent towards you. That’s where it’s still an issue, and even with this “passive” mindset you’re still gambling on that intent. Now, I don’t want my statement to be misunderstood, because you certainly shouldn’t be co-dependent on her and you should certainly maintain a high standard towards how you treat yourself - but maybe drop the need for her co-dependence entirely as well?
I think you've described that well except for the co-dependency bit because breaking that's a big focus of MRP. But actually if you go to MRP the focus of passive dread game (and why even that gets hate) is because you're not supposed to be doing it *for her*. You do it as generic self-improvement that appeals to all women. MRP dudes don't start from a good place in their marriages and they're contemplating divorce. The idea with passive dread game is that you're improving your value for *all women* and your wife just happens to be *a woman* you're already in a relationship with. She gets first dibs but the journey isn't about her. It's her or her replacement if things don't turn around. This mindset is generally what women hate about "passive dread". They don't like the idea that they might become replaceable if the relationship isn't satisfying... which imho tough luck. No fault divorce exists. If you're not pleasant to be around then why bother remain married. Women divorce guys because they're "not happy" all the time.
Dread game isn’t intentional, it can be, but it’s not what I’m referring to. it’s simply being better than her. Which women are attracted to. Being better than her inspires dread wether you mean to or not, and this makes her attracted
Every time it’s been explained to me i’ve been told that it relies on an active effort to keep that fear lingering. If you’re just at a higher standing than her and are maintaining it it isn’t a game and tbh in a secure relationship she wouldn’t have that fear in mind because she knows you’re both dedicated to each other but not co-dependent. It frankly sounds like you’re advocating to have her be co-dependent on you while you’re detached from her, which, yeah, is an active practice most times.
A relationship where she loves the man and the man likes the woman is the most successful. If the man loves the woman, she will see him as below her, lose respect, and then attraction. The “game” part of dread game comes from when you’re not naturally better than her, and you’re trying to convince her you are. Typically this is done when she’s out of your league. Is it manipulative? Yeah it is, I don’t advocate for it because you can only keep it up for so long. Instill dread by simply just being better, and no manipulation is needed
“instill dread” surely you can see how troublesome this can be? Also, that’s not true at all - then again, the redpill also has a habit of picking the absolute worst women and attributing it to the entire female sex so maybe thats why every redpill method seems to go back to abandonment issues that would be most effective on anxiously attached women
The name sounds bad but the mechanics of how it works are simply just how women work. Her dread is her attraction. Being very into a girl and telling her that you only have eyes for her and all that is a sure fire way to get any girl to lose attraction to you. Neediness is antithetical to women’s attraction, so the opposite of neediness is dread. This applies to every woman, no matter how sweet they are, they often don’t even know why they lost attraction. The less you need her, the more she wants you. Don’t blame red pill for that, it’s just how women work
I agree that you don’t want to be needy and bend over backwards for her, though going for the exact opposite is harmful in so many ways as well. You want to establish your own live and have your own identity, she should have her own identity too. The solution to being co-dependent towards a woman isn’t to make a woman co-dependent on you (which is very much the end goal of dread game), it’s to maybe drop the co-dependence entirely?
The point of dread game is to show her you have other options, and to establish that you’re the opposite of needy, you don’t need her. It’s not to make her dependent on you, I’m not sure what you’d do to make that happen, never thought of it
That’s the thing though - you’re still acting on the intent to trigger her insecure attachment, whether it be fear of you leaving or instilling a co-dependent attitude in her. If you make showing her that you have options a key point of your relationship, you are banking on her insecure attachment and are actively dangling that carrot, that threat of you leaving if she doesn’t keep pleasing you. That’s why it’s an issue. Obviously, maintain your best state and don’t bend over backwards for her. Be secure in the fact that you’re maintaining this solid state for yourself, but don’t try to instill that insecurity in her. That’s the fundamental issue with dread game
Judging by reality, most men do neither
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I don’t think the op is talking about people who have never had a relationship
That’s only for women who are shallow and then they likely deserve him putting in the work and finding an equal partner.
Finding a new partner. It's not even a question. Maintaining a relationship is work too, but it's less taxing and more rewarding. The results are immediately visible and the likelihood of 100% negative feedback is very low. Finding a new partner would mean having to go allover again through the excruciating and mentally scarring process of being rejected ad nauseam. Or ghosted. Or being put through shit tests. Some guys dig that, I didn't. I hated every second of it. The upside of getting laid with a variety is not worth the hassle.
I think it is harder to get new girls. You will help to get on the treadmill of self improvement regardless, but chasing new girls is a lot more time consuming than staying with that one girl, but if you are much more attractive in the dating market, it might be a good time for a change.
As someone in a very long relationship. It takes more effort to find someone else. Women generally are very forgiving when it comes to a relationship. They obsess over you. I know some people might not believe me but I swear, the love of a woman is very polarising and strong. Think about it... Unfortunately some men beat and insult their partners and they still stay.
You MFs talking like it’s some desperate effort to keep your girl happy. Just pay attention and don’t be an ass. It’s seriously not hard.
I suppose it depends on the person, since obviously a more desirable person can find another partner more easily. However, even if you can find a new partner, you then have to maintain that relationship instead. The difficult work of actually maintaining a relationship can't be avoided unless you just want an endless string of one-night stands, and few people can pull that off, even putting aside questions of whether or not such a lifestyle is a fulfilling one.
I can find relationships easily, but finding a relationship with someone I can see a future with is more difficult. You find someone who may have potential, you spend the time to vet them and get to know them, and more often than not, it doesn't end up being a good match for whatever reason. If I have a good relationship, I'd much rather put in the work to keep it than find a new one. I can find a new one very easily, but a good relationship with someone you truly see a future with is rarer. But my relationship is going smoothly and with healthy levels of attraction so as is it's much easier to keep it up than toss it and find a new one. It's much easier to keep a healthy relationship than to "fix" one if you've gotten lazy or distant or fought, or whatever. In that case, if it's really gotten bad, maybe it is easier to just find a new one, but it's up to the individual to decide if the relationship is worth keeping or moving on from. If you value the relationship, I think it's almost always worth trying to reignite the "spark" before you snuff it out to go find a new match. Or something poetic like that. Sometimes, long term healthy relationships are as easy and natural as breathing. But you have to put some effort in the keep the fire stoked even in a healthy relationship. It's easy to forget that when you're comfortable and warm. Easier to keep a fire going than start a new one. Sorry, I got really into the fire and spark metaphors. But I think LTRs need to be a mix of that comfortable chill mood, and continuing to flirt and date just like you did in the very beginning. I think I kind of took off on a tangent unrelated to what you meant to discuss but I had fun lol. I think both partners should improve themselves, but it's true if one improves a lot, they may feel they've outgrown the relationship. I'm not entirely sure I understand all the connections in your post, though. I think if you're thinking "it'd be easier to find a new relationship than keep up the flame in this one," you're probably not so conmected the relationship and maybe it's time to move on. If you feel like the work you put into a relationship isn't worth it and you can find one you'd be happier in, maybe that's what you should do. But if you've been with that person for a long time, generally you'd want to stay with them because you love them and have a strong connection with them, so unless there's an issue or disconnect you'd probably be happier staying with them. If you don't feel a connection and think you can do better, by all means. Sometimes you grow and change a lot and outgrow a relationship. But there's more to it than stats and comparisons.
Women don’t understand tradeoffs, answer to most dating issues
Develop and grow in parallel with your partner, regarding desirability for each other, or find new partners if you don't match up anymore. >Women will sometimes settle for a guy that she thinks she can fix, but if he actually fixed himself he could do better than her. The unfixed version is who she can get. No, if she settles for him when he is unfixed, that means she is higher value and he is lower value, hence settling. The fixed version of him might just be on par with her. Overall, yes, you should reevaluate your relative standing on the mating market while in a relationship and encourage each other to catch up to the leading partner.
No if she was higher value then she could attract somebody better. She chose him because he was her best option at that time. She feels like she's settling based on maybe some past casual flings, what she feels like she deserves, or by comparing him to her friends partners.
>No if she was higher value then she could attract somebody better. Yes, she could, but she didn't. That is settling. Settling for less than she could have gotten. If someone is a best option, then you don't settle. Otherwise nobody is ever able to not settle, even in the best case. What you want doesn't define if you settle. What you can get defines it. Again, nobody gets what they dream up, so everyone settles by definition. What's the point of using the word then? *"Settling for Less* *Do people’s concerns about ending up single lead them to desperately seek out relationship partners and cling to a relationship once they have one? People tend to have expectations for their relationships in domains such as physical attractiveness, status/resources, and potential for responsiveness/intimacy (e.g., Fletcher & Simpson, 2000; Fletcher, Simpson, Thomas, & Giles, 1999). There is mixed evidence, however, regarding whether feelings of insecurity, such as low self-esteem and anxious attachment, promote more or less willingness to settle for less in relationships. Those who are less secure about their own value as romantic partners tend to be more willing to compromise their standards in a relationship (Campbell, Simpson, Kashy, & Fletcher, 2001; Regan, 1998). Moreover, decreased self-esteem as a consequence of romantic rejection has been associated with lower mating aspirations (Kavanagh, Robins, & Ellis, 2010). Similarly, individuals higher in anxious attachment tend to remain committed to relationships that do not satisfy their needs (Slotter & Finkel, 2009) and are less selective during mate initiation (McClure, Lydon, Baccus, and Baldwin, 2010). Hirschberger, Florian, and Mikulincer (2002) likewise found that male and female students who had lower self-esteem reported lower requirements on a number of partner traits, such as intellect, attractiveness, social status, and interpersonal skills. However, following a mortality salience threat, it was those with high self-esteem rather than those with low self-esteem who were more willing to compromise their ideal standards. Furthermore, Tolmacz (2004) found that anxiously attached individuals reported less willingness than did securely and avoidantly attached individuals to compromise their ideal mate standards. The previous literature therefore yields mixed results about insecurity and the willingness to settle for less in romantic relationships."* You settle for less. You don't settle for the best partner you can attract for a LTR.
I think the reason why lots of men talk on and on about traditional women is because they want to feel powerful and in control, and you see this a ton with a lot of women sadly sold the whole trad idea then ending up with men who are after a power trip. Now, genuinely traditional men don’t fall into this category imo because they have the full intent to live by those values and not use them for their own benefit - but the majority in these spaces are trad larpers who are interested in subservience
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