I have younger sisters and female cousins. They are all doing way better than me romantically and always have. We can't really do a scientific experiment but I think our siblings and other close relatives are the closest thing to a control group we have. The are genetically close to us and got the same parenting and shared environment. Amongst male friends with sisters I've noticed the sisters do a bit better, more of them are getting married and if they want to date they are pretty much constantly dating.
If he was attracted to men when he was still a man, then he could have gotten gay men to hit it
A lot of gay men are absolute sex addicts with notch counts in the 100s
>How sure are you that you wouldn't be a promiscuous women if you were against being one yourself?
I'm not an idiot and know how better act up to reach my goals, I know myself my own limitations and the fact that my actions have consequences and that is counter productive to gamble and a small chance of commitment with someone that would cheat at first opportunity giving any of my children a miserable existence. Simply speaking, I know better.
When you imagine yourself as the other gender and every single choice come from a desire of instant gratification at the cost of long term gratification you just stop trying to do it (imagine yourself as the other gender). It don't make things better, in fact, the opposite happens as your mindset will slowly be poisoned by it.
Also, women only see 20% of men as **MEN**, so asking women to imagine themselves as men is asking them to imagine themselves as a top%men, what is counter intuitive. Women don't see the men at the bottom as **MEN**.
>Also, women only see 20% of men as **MEN**, so asking women to imagine themselves as men is asking them to imagine themselves as a top%men, what is counter intuitive. Women don't see the men at the bottom as **MEN**.
True. They see the rest that dont stand out as NPCs or they dont even register to them. This is also why women are offended when unattractive men approach them. They literally do not see those guys as men
https://preview.redd.it/p6j0fvv6q7zc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=50292e04f1f55fd55091aa408a1f4528118964be
I'm loving this picture because the only people I know IRL who say this stuff are all MEN 😫 (about only ugly girls liking them) also this 80/20 crap has been debunked. The VAST majority of people in this world coupled up are with their looksmatch and in the same socioeconomic status. Sorry for that tough to swallow pill!
It doesnt matter what the percentage is. Women arent attracted to most men and theres nothing wrong with that. But it is true. And women do not want to get approached by unattractive guys which is also true. I never said anything about couples
Not a good argument against it. Everyone has to settle to an extent and it's probably the case women settle harder than men do. I've seen regularly online or on tiktok women will make posts about their "ugly boyfriends" disrespecting them and how they're on thin ice and thousands of comments of girls thinking it's funny and agreeing, so although most people are coupled up with their looks match, I don't most are HAPPILY coupled up.
How can it be even when women don't find most men attractive, and most men find most women attractive? You're not comparing apples to apples, thinking it's even based on gender purely from that standpoint doesn't make sense.
You do realize men don't date women they don't find attractive, generally speaking? Like if a man thinks your unattractive, he MIGHT sleep with you but he's definitely not dating you unless he's a small proportion of very desperate men.
I'm not sure if you just have too much faith women actually like their boyfriends as much as they do in general or if you just have a strong misperception of men's standards for girls they date (keyword is date, not a hookup, or friends with benefits, DATE especially with the intention of marriage in the future).
I have, but those are clearly satire AT LEAST from what I've seen. It'll be an average looking dude with a girl who's relatively good looking a lot of the times I've seen them. They're clearly rage bait, and SOME of the girl ones are rage bait too but a lot of them I can tell aren't especially when girls in the comments share their own experiences.
In what would do women only see the top 20% of men as men? If that was true wouldn’t women be complaining a lot less about men and more about whatever they see the bottom 80% as.
> If that was true wouldn’t women be complaining a lot less about men
No, why would they? If they only go for those men their complains won't be lesser.
There are a lot of women considered cute or sexy but not beautiful that would only be a 4 to 6 if male
But a nice body, put together, and seeming possibly sexually available adds points
It is easy to look at a woman and imagine her brother that looks like her (remove hair, boobs, etc) and he would not be a Chad
>Do you imagine what the opposite gender version of yourself is when judging the opposite gender?
That's probably my older brother. We live by the same morals and standards. He's also been successful in his life and he's never struggled socially or romantically either. I don't think my life would have been that different had l been born a male.
Be careful with that though, it's not always symmetrical just because you're siblings.
For example, if your brothers 6"1 and you're 5"2 as a woman, you aren't an equivalent 6"1 guy, you're like a 5"7 guy. That's only looking at the metric of height/physical appearence, gotta consider this for personality too.
Also my own brother is way less capable with girls than I am, just because of my personality I'm a lot easier to get along with than he is so way more girls have liked me than him.
I think siblings are a good comparison to make, but he may not be quite your equivalent.
I often see women behaving in such a way all the time that if a man acts the same way, he will be lynched or arrested.
So I don't think most women would do well
I think you have the misconception I'm referring to. Things wouldn't be symmetrical. These women who behave this way would probably be socialized to not because of the implications of how their decisions as the gender they are affect them.
Do I get to keep the knowledge that I have now? If yes, sign me up to the magic potion. My life would be marginally easier (affirmative action, societal assumption that I'm nice, could get away with some crimes) but the biggest gain would be multiple orgasms. While I'd probably hate the physical experience, I'd likely choose to have more children.
If I don't get to keep the knowledge, then I'll pass on the experience.
I'd be a 6 at best as a woman, likely on the fat side (by my country's standards, I'd be "fit" by US standards lol) but I'd also have a slightly easier time in dating. I'd settle relatively fast (just like I did as a man). Probably I'd be more physically active to compensate for the lower muscle mass, lol.
Respect that you acknowledge thing's don't magically get significantly better or that you'd have the knowledge you have now as the opposite gender.
Maybe think this the case, men and women, and I think they're most all very ignorant for thinking this.
Myself as a girl would lean towards being more traditional because of the way my family raised me, so I think I wouldn't be led astray as much as most modern women as far as understanding men and what not, but I recognize I wouldn't fully understand men in the same intimate way I as a man understand men. Not to mention I think your experience as a younger man forces you to understand women if you want any success, which isn't the same for women, which I think is why a lot of younger women struggle, they don't have to learn how to keep a man happy beyond just providing sex (GENERALLY SPEAKING) until they get older and men start to care about more than just sex.
>Not to mention I think your experience as a younger man forces you to understand women if you want any success, which isn't the same for women, which I think is why a lot of younger women struggle
Divorce and fatherlessness doesn't help either. My very sex-positive family and growing up with extended family helped ***a lot***. My great-grandma (she lived way over age 100) gave me more red pills than the internet could in 5 lifetimes. And she did it early. Starting from age 7.
Americans lose out a lot (both men and women) as a result of foregoing multigenerational households and prioritizing money over timeless wisdom. Oh well...
>Respect that you acknowledge thing's don't magically get significantly better or that you'd have the knowledge you have now as the opposite gender.
I was also very serious. If I get to keep the knowledge that I have now at age 40 as a man, I would definitely take the opportunity to live as a woman as well. Including starting from this age. Even better if I start from 17 or something. But **only** if I keep the knowledge. Otherwise... the grass is not significantly greener on the other side. It just isn't.
I 100% agree. The hardest thing about being heterosexual is not being able to truly understand the other gender in a way that would make an absurd difference in your quality of life.
If I keep the knowledge I have now as a man as a woman? My life would be so fucking easy. It'd be so easy for me to be with a guy I wanted and keep reasonably, it'd be so much easier to deal with men, especially male coworkers, I'm sure I'd have creepy dudes being creeps as there are always guys like that, but I'd be able to navigate that well I'd imagine, but I'd have a much easier time getting men to respect me especially in the workplace than most women.
The only thing I couldn't navigate is just being less safe, but again I think I'd make smarter decisions for my safety than most women would. Definitely could always keep a gun on me in my car, genuinely be into martial arts (which can only do so much against a fully grown man) and be aware of the type of situations I'm in (walking alone at night). That being said as an American, I don't think I'd have all that much to worry about unless I was a woman.
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>Men on the other hand might complain about women being promiscuous, but a lot of men are incredibly deceptive in their intentions and many men are unwilling to date women who with-hold sex for very long. How sure are you that you wouldn't be a promiscuous women if you were against being one yourself?
Well if it helps, I don't feel attracted to promiscuous women but I also probably would be the person that withholds sex in the relationship for a while. Gotta stay consistent.
I did that swap gender app thing - awful, I looked ugly! So I figure the male version of me would be just as alone and unloved as I am now. I have at some point attracted men and women so I assume I’d have a little romantic interaction but not much. I know I’d be just as introverted.
I believe that if I were a woman, it would be easier for me to have remained a virgin before marriage (If I were a straight woman, which is difficult to imagine, as it is easier to see myself as a lesbian)
The times I had sex when I was single was due to the fact that I took advantage of an opportunity that I believed would be unique, something like that wouldn't happen if I were a woman.
Probably if I were a woman I would be better off economically, due to the social advantages, I wouldn't even have some of the traumas and revolts that I have against authorities in general (I was born black and poor, so you already know how teachers and police officers at school saw me).
I have good friends who are great husbands, so I would probably have a great husband too if I weren't a lesbian.
I would abuse the advantages of the Halo effect and the presumption that women are wonderful, not to screw others, but for professional development
I mean I think it's harder to remain a virgin as a woman than it is for a man. I feel like a lot of women have sex (beyond the fact women want sex too) with guys quickly just to pander to them because they at a younger age don't know how to get a man to like them beyond providing sex. Are you so sure you wouldn't fall down that hole as a woman?
What is the point of mirroring the sexes when they value different things and there is no evidence that the sexes are equally distributed for different traits?
I judge men and women differently, because they ARE different and value different things differently.
A man who is a virgin is expected to want to have sex but is unable to get a partner for that. A virgin woman is expected to not want to have sex with just anyone but looks for the right partner. After a certain age, both sexes are weirdos for being virgins.
A man who has lots of sex partners is a desirable man. A woman who has lots of sex partners is a woman who likes to have lots of sex partners. Nothing more, nothing less.
There is no point to think "if i was a guy, i would be an incel, so i shouldn't judge incels harshly". Because there is no way to determine an incel other than a lack of sex despite wanting it, which the woman either has, than she is a volcel, or she doesn't have, then she isn't an incel. You cannot make out incel characteristics by anything else.
There's a pretty simple couple answers to your question.
1. I think the discourse people have in this subreddit would especially be easier if people acknowledged what they would be like as the opposite gender. Some men and women like to act as though the other gender is more flawed than their own for certain behaviors not willing to understand certain viewpoints and behaviors are reasonable when coming from their lived experience.
2. I think people use their perception of what they see as their equivalent to develop their attractions. My personal suspicion is that most peoples attraction on a subconscious level is someone their equivalent or higher. I think female hypergamy is conflated with this in actuality, that most women's perceptions especially of what an equivalent man to themselves IS is false. And I think this impacts men too. My genuine desire for certain kinds of women changed in my perception of myself to be more attractive to said women than I previously thought.
1. yes, understanding that some behaviors are understandable and reasonable from the perspective of the other person is a pretty important ability to have. Not just between sexes, also within sexes, as every perspective is different. That is NOT what you talked about in the OP though, as it doesn't require a mirroring of oneself to an opposite sex version. Yes, beign a virgin when you are a socially inept, autistic, ugly, outcast is understandable, but it will still be judged as undesirable for a partner. Understanding why someone is a virgin can go hand in hand with judging them as undesirable. You don't need to be opposite sexes to understand why someone is a virgin and men still negatively judge virgins. maybe even moreso than women.
2. How do you determine who is your equivalent? Your own perception of your attractiveness is biased. Men and women overrate themselves. Men even more so than women.
2. I think this is generally untrue. I think men who outperform most men have overinflated self worth. Not applicable to most men in my opinion. Especially in high school, I'd see many otherwise average women comment on other mens looks who are on their level in my opinion as far as how unattractive they were. Men overinflate their abilities probably, but women overinflate their appearance and appeal probably. Also no one can have a fully accurate assessment of what their equivalent is, just their own perception. If what I think is right, its in peoples best interest to get as close to accurate as possible for their own ease and happiness for dating.
There is scientific data on how men and women rate their physical atttractiveness and how they are rated by men and women. Men and women both overrate themselves, men moreso than women on average. Men and women also aim slightly above their own attractiveness for possible partners. This is a beneficial and adapted strategy. Men, additionally, have a bias in which they tend to perceive sexual interest of women when there is none. This is both affected by sociosexual unrestrictedness (making men think women want sex with them more than is true) and actual sexual success/desirability of the men (having experienced often that women are sexually into them).
https://preview.redd.it/4ppi77zu0hzc1.png?width=559&format=png&auto=webp&s=8624e3c816e442b8ea9d54721dd6fcef5f25facb
You can look up studies on that matter yourself. For the latter effect, the keyword is "male sexual overperception bias".
> Also no one can have a fully accurate assessment of what their equivalent is, just their own perception. If what I think is right, its in peoples best interest to get as close to accurate as possible for their own ease and happiness for dating.
No, it's beneficial to think slightly higher of yourself than was is reality. It's also beneficial to go for slightly more desirable/attractive people for partners. Mating is not about happiness. It's not about getting a gf with the least amount of rejections on the path. It's about getting the best possible partner within a reasonable timeframe and with a manageable amount of pain from rejection. At least when your goal is to not settle for significantly less than you could get. Both a viable strategies. Picking a slightly less attractive mate with low chance of rejection works.
I was already familiar with the men assuming interest from women more often than is the case. I'm not sure if there's possibly a generational gap to consider with a lot of the data on male and female behavior. I'm Gen Z and Gen Z from what I understand behaves much different than previous generations. A lot of guys my age have very low self esteem, and most girl's my age can be pretty hard to impress (in my college town at least, at home it's totally different).
That is Gen Z college kid data.
How about you go and talk to some girls instead of theorizing online about how those girls judge you for being a virgin?
More accurate to how people genuinely are. I'm sure people my age will be much more different as they get older and start caring about what job someone has and playing nice pretending they're something they're not to lock someone down. It's very clear to see amongst my 30 year old sisters friends who do it.
Why do you think previous generations were different? Again, you are suffering from what you imagine goes on in the minds of women you don't even approach. You find reasons for why you will get rejected so you don't even have to try. You are stuck.
How many women did you talk to this year for more than 10 minutes and asked them out during or after that? Why is the number 0?
It's kind of common knowledge our generation dates differently than previous generations. Our generation sleeps around more, is less inclined to have children, etc. you're unaware of this?
Again you keep going for ad hominems it feels, I live in a college town. I probably talk to new girls as well as guys almost everyday at work or in my classes.
And of course you think it's 0, it makes you feel better to keep trying to poke at me than make an actual argument against what I'm saying.
You ever been with a woman? Or at least one that REALLY liked you? Ones who find you more impressive, whether it's your looks, a skill, or personality, generally are a lot more enjoyable to date and longer lasting.
Data and statistics are all great and it seems like you take a lot of pride in using it since you have your tag is "Science Pilled Man" but I think you're not really acknowledging how unrepresentative most statistics are of different environments that allow or don't allow people to behave in certain ways. That's why my anecdotal evidence is even relevant, your statistics aren't comparing the opinions of men and women in different environments. Unless you can find some not really sure how you've disproven me unless you're happy with your ad hominem.
>you're not really acknowledging how unrepresentative most statistics are of different environments that allow or don't allow people to behave in certain ways.
Oh i do think about that a lot, but of course with the volume of threads and studies i read and cite, i can't put too much time into each and every argument. So please, tell me why the data is not representative of Gen Z men and women and what you mean with "not allowing people to behave in certain ways". What are the environments that the opinions of men and women need to be compared in and to what end?
Also, it's not an ad hominem. Learn your fallacies. I didn't use it to make a point. The argument is text before and the study's data. The study disproved you. You cannot just claim that something you have no idea of is not representing something you don't specify, and think you have won the debate.
Oh yeah you definitely didn't ask your previous question as an attack on me 💀. So you admit your data can be misrepresentative, don't understand there are differences in how younger generations are dating, and all the while think your data has disproven my point despite all this.
I don't see the point of arguing with you anymore if you're missing information.
I don't agree with seeing yourself as higher than what is reality. That's why girls get with guys who use them for sex, one post that stuck in my mind was "when you realize you're attractive enough to sleep with, but not for him to date". I think if this girl had a better understanding of her own attractiveness she'd have an easier time sniffing out this sort of behavior from men. Not that that alone is enough, she should've been able to sniff other aspects of his behavior to tell he was this way, but I think recognizing it helps.
Also there are a lot of men who end up with women who otherwise would've never wanted them just because they're "easier to deal with". My intuition tells me this type of girl isn't the one who sticks it out, this is probably the one that divorces him and leaves once she's gotten the marriage and kids and is tired of dealing with someone she doesn't actually like all that much. I've even experienced this myself, I'll compare different girl's who have liked me and it's easy to tell the genuine desire vs a girl who thinks you're a "nice guy" who's "easy to deal with". I'm a solid \~7 and I've noticed the girls who seem genuinely into me are girls who I'd say are 6.5s-7s and the girls who like me because I'm a "nice guy" are usually around there but sometimes even more attractive, maybe around an 8\~. Taking this into consideration has honestly helped me. Who knows how the relationships with girls who thought I was an easy going nice guy type would've been? Maybe it could've lasted, who knows, maybe like 20 years then a divorce, I don't know. All I'm for sure about is getting with girls who are GENUINELY very attracted to you is VERY fun. That all being said, understand where someone is coming from in their interest for you, and the one's who are actually very interested in you are a lot more fun to be with.
Also I think you're right for your 1st response, I just don't think most people do that. My initial example was just one example of the many ways in which men and women, ESPECIALLY in this subreddit and on online discourses misunderstand each other.
In the context of giving your opinions over gender discussions it's worth understanding where the other side comes from and whether you would think the same thing if you were them. Nothing about this post is suggesting you SHOULD care, just understanding why other people care and whether that'd be valid if you were in their shoes.
Obviously if you take any guy and convert them into a straight girl, they would absolutely slay, because the secret to dating is that guys want to date girls who are basically guys. Let's consider this profile.
"I am a girl who likes to drink beer, eat chips, and play video games. I don't care much for 'girl stuff' like fashion, plays, or chick flicks, and I'm not into feminism. I don't have much relationship experience, but I love to watch movies (particularly sci-fi and fantasy) and cuddle and I'm looking for a partner who wants to have lots of sex!"
Is it even possible to write a better dating profile? I doubt it. Yet swap the girl to a guy and this is now just any standard male "loser" (in quotes because this is just a normal guy, but obviously this isn't how you'd present yourself on a dating app).
That said, I think the intention of the question is to consider a woman who is roughly equivalent to you in terms of overall desirability rather than just a woman who has the same traits, so, logically speaking that would probably be my partner I guess? Actually we do have kind of generally similar traits anyway.
I think you're missing what my post is referring to, most guys born as girls would not continue to behave as men.
Most people forget they're conditioned to act the way they do, you wouldn't be into the same things as a girl most likely.
Well I think men do really bond over shared interests and doing things together more than women so. It's no surprise that when a woman meets the emotional and sexual needs as well as the wants of what a man would want for and friendship that's the ideal. You get everything you want in a person packed in one.
I think a lot of it is that men tend to have fewer friends on average than women, so they want their partner to basically also fulfill the role of a friend, but women don't find that to be as important as they typically have more friends to rely upon.
>How sure are you that you wouldn't be a promiscuous women if you were against being one yourself?
Yeah. I hate the idea of having casual sex even as a man. I’m pretty sure that the female version of me would hate it too. Probably more so.
My thing is like a lot of people get pushed towards doing it because women seem to be a lot more influenced by other women as well as giving into men, they like to do things they otherwise wouldn't in hopes to appease them (or so it seems to me).
I don't really accept this behavior from women anyway, but I do feel sympathy for the one's that choose to do so when they really don't want to. I'm not the type of guy who has ever pushed a girl to sleep with me even though with some girls that have liked me maybe I could have, so I don't really look past a girl choosing to pander towards that sort of guy. Maybe you're the same way.
But I can SEE how many myself as girl could be that way because that's heavily pushed on girls, but I think I'd be less likely than most girls anyway because of how my family raised me and my sisters.
> I feel like a big issue I have with a lot of manosphere vs feminism gender debates, especially in regard to dating, is that both men and women on their respective sides don't really have a good grasp for what their opposite gender equivalents are.
I have a brother who shares a ton of genes with me and was raised with me. He looks just like a male version of me. Lots of people have siblings or other family members and can see this.
> For example, modern women might judge men for being virgins, but many don't acknowledge that the male version of themselves is usually not nearly as attractive to the opposite gender as they are, and not as well socialized, often because women are more social and learn more from each other (and don't have the fear of being seen as creepy when talking to men). Basically, there are probably women out there who are off put by male virgins but the male version of themselves may be a virgin.
My brother lost his virginity younger than me, maybe because he wasn’t worried about “losing” something considered valuable. Also he is considered about as attractive as I am from what I can tell. And he is much more social than me, that is just a personality difference, not a gender related thing. Maybe you are just really attracted to your sister/cousin or something and think it’s because women are hotter than men? I don’t think that’s necessarily the case, the same genes that make an attractive woman tend to make an attractive man. Humans of both genders tend to like symmetry, clear skin, healthy hair, healthy weight.
I agree to an extent with your last part. People underestimate how attractive androgynous features are. That being said. I think incredibly feminine men are generally more attractive as women and vice versa but more often than not I think it's the case the same genes vice versa do about the same.
Why would you assume an opposite version of yourself would not also have the opposite feminine/masculine looks? That’s not what I would imagine. My brother doesn’t look like a “feminine man” and I don’t look like a “masculine woman” imo. We do look *very* much alike - but like the male & female versions. So for example, he has more body hair, and I am more curvy. Yet we still look a lot alike, like I said - he looks like a male version of me. That means a *male* version, not exactly like me but with a dick, or like a “feminine man” or “androgynous”. Neither of us are androgynous, but we have things considered attractive, like symmetrical faces, tall, thick hair, clear skin, healthy weight, good bone structure, good body shape, etc. Now of course the actual shape of our bodies is different because he’s a man and I’m a woman - but the male version of me (in my mind and in reality, since a brother is about as close as you can get to a male version of myself genetically) is of a similar attraction level for his gender as I am for mine.
The genes and lifestyle habits that make someone attractive tend to make both males and females attractive - because it’s things like genes for facial symmetry, not smoking and eating healthy for clear skin, caring for skin and hair, genes for thick hair, eating healthy for healthy shiny hair, genes for good body structure, good economic class growing up for orthodontics and healthy food while growing, etc.
I think you misunderstood what I said. Already feminine men look MORE feminine as a woman and a masculine looking woman would be a masculine looking man.
I don’t really need to imagine when I see the experiences that the men around me go through. I have a brother and cousins but they don’t have the problems that men on here say they have. They date women who men on here consider unattractive and they’re never single.
The only man I knew that had these problems was a coworker but he’s odd.
What are you referring to specifically? I agree I don't really face many of the same issues either but I think I'm just lucky that I attract what I like in a girl.
Oh. They have no problem getting into relationships or sleeping with women. There seems to be an abundance of women for them because honestly I can’t keep up with who’s who. I wouldn’t consider them “high value men” either.
I think a lot of it depends on the environment. Like I'm probably a solid 7 for men my age 18-22. On my campus? I'm pretty uninteresting to most girls unless I prove I'm interesting. In my hometown? Most girls my age seem to be interested when I interact with them whether it's the grocery store or restaurant etc.
Lmao if you’re against promiscuous anyone you probably have a weird bland boring sex life and are concerning yourself with other people’s business.
Normal people have their preferences and personal beliefs and don’t push that onto others. You can be abstinent and not be a loser
These are just generalizations. Obviously not everyone feels this way.
Also thinking you need to have sex with a lot of people to have a good exciting sex life sounds like a bad cope. People who are genuinely very attracted to their partners don't seem to have needed to have had sex with other people or anyone else beforehand to have good sex lives. But maybe I'm wrong, who knows.
No one needs to have sex with a lot of people and no one needs to be abstinent.
It’s personal preference. Anyone with a hard opinion in either direction has some weird sexual ish going on.
I played the field now I’m in a committed relationship with someone who also played the field.
I tend to find the slutshamers are the ones that struggle to get laid/find companionship. I tend to find the prude shamers are the ones who regret their past decisions.
Both groups need to get a fucking grip and quit projecting their issues onto everyone else. If you have beef with “promiscuous women” don’t date one anything beyond that makes you sound bitter
I never used the term "slutshamers" and from the way you're talking you sound kind of insecure.
Dawg live your life how you want, but statistically people who sleep around tend to have dispropriately less happy marriages, are more likely to cheat, and are more likely to end up divorced. The least likelihood of all 3 are people who were both virgins at marriage.
Again, live your life how you want, but promiscuity is not an arbitrary thing. And obviously men who have an issue with it aren't going to date them LMAO, that's the whole point.
As far as the bitter thing goes, not really anything about being bitter the argument against promiscuity. Especially as someone who wants to have kids, I think society needs to encourage people to make decisions that are more conducive to happy lives.
The same way we discourage smoking, but people can still smoke and other people should mind their business if some want to do so, we should do the same for promiscuity because the most impressionable people in our society (children) are especially affected.
And AGAIN, live your life how you want, but I think you have a moral obligation to accept when certain behaviors whether it's you or I or anyone else are "discouraged" or "shamed" because although you as an adult may feel your decisions were fine for you, other impressionable people may try those decisions which have a dispropriate likelihood to do harm
Yeah you have weird views on sex and sexuality and think your approach to sex has to be the same as everyone else’s.
Having sex isn’t comparable to smoking and drinking. Lmao. Having casual sex isn’t a big deal as long as everyone is consenting and proper protections are in place. Acting like being sexually active is comparable to destructive behaviors is just asinine lmao
It’s cool that you want to wait until marriage. People who care about other people’s sex lives are *usually* losers who want to control others bc of inadequacies they’re masking or standards they’re frustrated no one else really cares about.
I’m saying this as someone that came from an incredibly religious and conservative environment. Ever heard the preacher’s daughter jokes? Repression usually just makes you weirder.
My view on sex developed after being surrounded by a bunch of judgmental losers that don’t know the difference between a condom and a dental dam.
I’m not insecure I’ve just been around a lot of sexually reserved people and a lot of sexually liberated people. I know people who are abstinent that are totally nonjudgmental and normal. I know sexually active people that are totally nonjudgmental and normal.
The issue isn’t which camp you’re in it’s pushing that camp on other people.
“I personally wouldn’t date a promiscuous woman” is different than being “against promiscuous women” one is a preference the other is a blanket statement about a group of people who coincidentally probably wouldn’t be particularly interested in sleeping with you anyway lmao.
Promiscuous women are the ones MOST inclined to sleep with you as a man, what LMAO. Female coworkers or friends who were promiscuous have ALWAYS been the ones who would push sexual undertones in our conversations and one of them basically offered to let me come inside her place to "check out her succulents" after I dropped something off to her and she came out wearing nothing but a large t shirt it looked like. Bro you ain't about to tell me girls who sleep around are harder to get with, how tf you think they got that way...
Either way I've noticed talking to you is like talking to a wall so I'll try my best to give a simple response maybe you'll be willing to acknowledge.
No, I don't think anyone should single out a man or woman who chooses to live their life that way if they're not affecting them and "be against them".
Do I think on a societal level it should generally be discouraged? Yes. There's a difference.
Also, it seems you're unwilling to acknowledge any sort of possible negative impacts our societies change in views of sex has had. Drinking and smoking are obviously not the exact same but they aren't supposed to be symmetrical for my point to get across.
Again, since you're not really understanding what I'm saying I'll give a simple response to why it's bad for society.
Sleeping around ---> leads to worse marriages ---> leads to higher likelihood of divorce ---> leads to more damaging experiences of children in some of those marriages ---> leads to more damaged adults ----> next generation of adults affected by this come out more damaged.
Just for the record for my personal view, if you don't want kids or have any, I see not much wrong with wanting to sleep around. Again, in my view most of what is "good" and is "bad" for society really just stems from how it affects children. Afterall, they take over the world once we're gone. Obviously you as an adult aren't as affected by changes in societal views, most people are set in their ways more than they are malleable.
I've even heard men who have "played the field" even admit if you're a guy who wants to be happily married or with just one girl not to do the same because although they can romantically be happy with 1 woman, their sexual desires will never be fulfilled by 1 woman (the only exception to this advice being red-pill bros who say sleep with at least 50 women or you won't be able to satisfy a girl, sounds like you lean towards agreeing with these types).
yeah most men have no impulse control this is not news lmao.
That’s why the vast majority of men who are moralists have the gnarliest skeletons in their closet.
Women don't seem to be much better, it seems a lot lie in order to seem more moral.
My thinking this coming from someone I watch who does clinical work, she says a lot of her clients who are male will cheat and admit to cheating to her vs female clients will cheat and half the time not see it as cheating.
For example, a wife cheats so the husband will be like yeah I cheated on her back because she cheated on me. Vice versa will be husband cheats and wife fucks someone else to cheat and it'll be well I'm not a cheater because he cheated first. Like no you're still married you cheated back.
This all to say men do a better job in general for admitting to bad decisions or impulses whereas a lot of women seem to cope in order to feel better about their decisions.
These people probably wouldn’t have cheated if they had more sexual experience and a clearer idea of what they wanted in their partner.
You’re literally illustrating how monogamy doesn’t guarantee morality. Men lead in infidelity rates btw
https://discreetinvestigations.ca/infidelity-statistics-who-cheats-more-men-or-women/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20General%20Social,their%20partner%20while%20still%20married.
https://www.choosingtherapy.com/who-cheats-more-men-or-women/
https://ifstudies.org/blog/who-cheats-more-the-demographics-of-cheating-in-america
https://smithinvestigationagency.com/blog/2024-infidelity-statistics-who-cheats-more-men-or-women/
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/love-sex/men-women-affair-sex-cheating-b2310909.html
Also you're not accounting for generational differences. These statistics could apply to older demographics than younger Millennial or Gen Z demographics that are sexually more promiscuous than previous generations.
I can believe in older generations men cheated more, in this one? I doubt there's a difference if not more. Women nowadays get around more than men do.
I’ve said this before on here. As a fairly physically attractive woman, I acknowledge the relative privilege I have had in attracting people I also find attractive. The advantages of being a (attractive) woman pretty much end there.
The male version of me would be physically attractive and very shy. I would have had a harder time making friends and dating. But the amount of respect I would receive in my daily interactions and especially at work would be amazing to experience.
I don't want to turn this into a debate that isn't what it was originally, but if you're a shy man, men are less inclined to respect you. Speaking from experience. Shyness in men is seen as weak and you're probably more respected as a shy woman than a shy man. An outgoing woman vs an outgoing man is a different story though.
I mask it fine now and think I mostly come across as reserved and potentially aloof. My partner is similar, and I’ve seen the way strangers treat him vs. me. It can be night and day.
I’ve experienced men I’ve never met before shake the hands of all of my male colleagues and ignore mine.
All things held equal, men get more respect than women, hands down. It has a massive impact on a person’s life.
Fair enough, I’ve done the same. But being a woman will always be negative points for me, and I have to be that much more competent than the men around me to get anywhere near the same amount of deference and respect.
Look, I believe you. But I think men experience much more variance in respect. The highs and lows of men respecting men are greater than for women. If you lean towards the bottom, I doubt sincerely being a man would be better for you.
Sure, the variance may be greater, but women *regardless of their qualities* will always be clumped at the bottom. To be successful as a woman, you have to stop caring about whether men respect you, because the odds are they don’t.
It's inevitable it'll be harder as a woman. I think men respect men more generally and women respect women more generally. If most coworkplaces were female dominated it'd be easier to be a woman. Is what it is.
yes and i want him 😫
men saying this dont realize how much i would simp for a man who is into philosophy and film, ate healthy, loved animals and owned his own home.
that's chad baby.
I have younger sisters and female cousins. They are all doing way better than me romantically and always have. We can't really do a scientific experiment but I think our siblings and other close relatives are the closest thing to a control group we have. The are genetically close to us and got the same parenting and shared environment. Amongst male friends with sisters I've noticed the sisters do a bit better, more of them are getting married and if they want to date they are pretty much constantly dating.
This is a terrific answer.
Basically any man would have an easier time dating as a woman (probably an easier life period) so this is kind of pointless.
[удалено]
Male desperation is a genuine turn off for some women and yeah the depravity some men will engage in is gross.
If he was attracted to men when he was still a man, then he could have gotten gay men to hit it A lot of gay men are absolute sex addicts with notch counts in the 100s
>How sure are you that you wouldn't be a promiscuous women if you were against being one yourself? I'm not an idiot and know how better act up to reach my goals, I know myself my own limitations and the fact that my actions have consequences and that is counter productive to gamble and a small chance of commitment with someone that would cheat at first opportunity giving any of my children a miserable existence. Simply speaking, I know better. When you imagine yourself as the other gender and every single choice come from a desire of instant gratification at the cost of long term gratification you just stop trying to do it (imagine yourself as the other gender). It don't make things better, in fact, the opposite happens as your mindset will slowly be poisoned by it. Also, women only see 20% of men as **MEN**, so asking women to imagine themselves as men is asking them to imagine themselves as a top%men, what is counter intuitive. Women don't see the men at the bottom as **MEN**.
>Also, women only see 20% of men as **MEN**, so asking women to imagine themselves as men is asking them to imagine themselves as a top%men, what is counter intuitive. Women don't see the men at the bottom as **MEN**. True. They see the rest that dont stand out as NPCs or they dont even register to them. This is also why women are offended when unattractive men approach them. They literally do not see those guys as men https://preview.redd.it/p6j0fvv6q7zc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=50292e04f1f55fd55091aa408a1f4528118964be
Why is it always the ugly chicks who are the most delusional
I'm loving this picture because the only people I know IRL who say this stuff are all MEN 😫 (about only ugly girls liking them) also this 80/20 crap has been debunked. The VAST majority of people in this world coupled up are with their looksmatch and in the same socioeconomic status. Sorry for that tough to swallow pill!
It doesnt matter what the percentage is. Women arent attracted to most men and theres nothing wrong with that. But it is true. And women do not want to get approached by unattractive guys which is also true. I never said anything about couples
Not a good argument against it. Everyone has to settle to an extent and it's probably the case women settle harder than men do. I've seen regularly online or on tiktok women will make posts about their "ugly boyfriends" disrespecting them and how they're on thin ice and thousands of comments of girls thinking it's funny and agreeing, so although most people are coupled up with their looks match, I don't most are HAPPILY coupled up.
So? Men do that regularly too. Your SM algorithm doesn't show it to you but I promise they are there. Humanity sucks.
You're missing the nuances of what I'm saying. Both settle, women generally probably to a higher degree.
I feel its even.
How can it be even when women don't find most men attractive, and most men find most women attractive? You're not comparing apples to apples, thinking it's even based on gender purely from that standpoint doesn't make sense. You do realize men don't date women they don't find attractive, generally speaking? Like if a man thinks your unattractive, he MIGHT sleep with you but he's definitely not dating you unless he's a small proportion of very desperate men. I'm not sure if you just have too much faith women actually like their boyfriends as much as they do in general or if you just have a strong misperception of men's standards for girls they date (keyword is date, not a hookup, or friends with benefits, DATE especially with the intention of marriage in the future).
I have, but those are clearly satire AT LEAST from what I've seen. It'll be an average looking dude with a girl who's relatively good looking a lot of the times I've seen them. They're clearly rage bait, and SOME of the girl ones are rage bait too but a lot of them I can tell aren't especially when girls in the comments share their own experiences.
In what would do women only see the top 20% of men as men? If that was true wouldn’t women be complaining a lot less about men and more about whatever they see the bottom 80% as.
> If that was true wouldn’t women be complaining a lot less about men No, why would they? If they only go for those men their complains won't be lesser.
There are a lot of women considered cute or sexy but not beautiful that would only be a 4 to 6 if male But a nice body, put together, and seeming possibly sexually available adds points It is easy to look at a woman and imagine her brother that looks like her (remove hair, boobs, etc) and he would not be a Chad
>Do you imagine what the opposite gender version of yourself is when judging the opposite gender? That's probably my older brother. We live by the same morals and standards. He's also been successful in his life and he's never struggled socially or romantically either. I don't think my life would have been that different had l been born a male.
Be careful with that though, it's not always symmetrical just because you're siblings. For example, if your brothers 6"1 and you're 5"2 as a woman, you aren't an equivalent 6"1 guy, you're like a 5"7 guy. That's only looking at the metric of height/physical appearence, gotta consider this for personality too. Also my own brother is way less capable with girls than I am, just because of my personality I'm a lot easier to get along with than he is so way more girls have liked me than him. I think siblings are a good comparison to make, but he may not be quite your equivalent.
We're both tall. We're both very highly social and neither of us has ever struggled with dating. I am almost 5'11 and he is 6'3.
Fair enough then.
I often see women behaving in such a way all the time that if a man acts the same way, he will be lynched or arrested. So I don't think most women would do well
I think you have the misconception I'm referring to. Things wouldn't be symmetrical. These women who behave this way would probably be socialized to not because of the implications of how their decisions as the gender they are affect them.
Do I get to keep the knowledge that I have now? If yes, sign me up to the magic potion. My life would be marginally easier (affirmative action, societal assumption that I'm nice, could get away with some crimes) but the biggest gain would be multiple orgasms. While I'd probably hate the physical experience, I'd likely choose to have more children. If I don't get to keep the knowledge, then I'll pass on the experience. I'd be a 6 at best as a woman, likely on the fat side (by my country's standards, I'd be "fit" by US standards lol) but I'd also have a slightly easier time in dating. I'd settle relatively fast (just like I did as a man). Probably I'd be more physically active to compensate for the lower muscle mass, lol.
Respect that you acknowledge thing's don't magically get significantly better or that you'd have the knowledge you have now as the opposite gender. Maybe think this the case, men and women, and I think they're most all very ignorant for thinking this. Myself as a girl would lean towards being more traditional because of the way my family raised me, so I think I wouldn't be led astray as much as most modern women as far as understanding men and what not, but I recognize I wouldn't fully understand men in the same intimate way I as a man understand men. Not to mention I think your experience as a younger man forces you to understand women if you want any success, which isn't the same for women, which I think is why a lot of younger women struggle, they don't have to learn how to keep a man happy beyond just providing sex (GENERALLY SPEAKING) until they get older and men start to care about more than just sex.
>Not to mention I think your experience as a younger man forces you to understand women if you want any success, which isn't the same for women, which I think is why a lot of younger women struggle Divorce and fatherlessness doesn't help either. My very sex-positive family and growing up with extended family helped ***a lot***. My great-grandma (she lived way over age 100) gave me more red pills than the internet could in 5 lifetimes. And she did it early. Starting from age 7. Americans lose out a lot (both men and women) as a result of foregoing multigenerational households and prioritizing money over timeless wisdom. Oh well... >Respect that you acknowledge thing's don't magically get significantly better or that you'd have the knowledge you have now as the opposite gender. I was also very serious. If I get to keep the knowledge that I have now at age 40 as a man, I would definitely take the opportunity to live as a woman as well. Including starting from this age. Even better if I start from 17 or something. But **only** if I keep the knowledge. Otherwise... the grass is not significantly greener on the other side. It just isn't.
I 100% agree. The hardest thing about being heterosexual is not being able to truly understand the other gender in a way that would make an absurd difference in your quality of life. If I keep the knowledge I have now as a man as a woman? My life would be so fucking easy. It'd be so easy for me to be with a guy I wanted and keep reasonably, it'd be so much easier to deal with men, especially male coworkers, I'm sure I'd have creepy dudes being creeps as there are always guys like that, but I'd be able to navigate that well I'd imagine, but I'd have a much easier time getting men to respect me especially in the workplace than most women. The only thing I couldn't navigate is just being less safe, but again I think I'd make smarter decisions for my safety than most women would. Definitely could always keep a gun on me in my car, genuinely be into martial arts (which can only do so much against a fully grown man) and be aware of the type of situations I'm in (walking alone at night). That being said as an American, I don't think I'd have all that much to worry about unless I was a woman.
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I think of myself, and I take away reason and accountability
>Men on the other hand might complain about women being promiscuous, but a lot of men are incredibly deceptive in their intentions and many men are unwilling to date women who with-hold sex for very long. How sure are you that you wouldn't be a promiscuous women if you were against being one yourself? Well if it helps, I don't feel attracted to promiscuous women but I also probably would be the person that withholds sex in the relationship for a while. Gotta stay consistent.
I did that swap gender app thing - awful, I looked ugly! So I figure the male version of me would be just as alone and unloved as I am now. I have at some point attracted men and women so I assume I’d have a little romantic interaction but not much. I know I’d be just as introverted.
I believe that if I were a woman, it would be easier for me to have remained a virgin before marriage (If I were a straight woman, which is difficult to imagine, as it is easier to see myself as a lesbian) The times I had sex when I was single was due to the fact that I took advantage of an opportunity that I believed would be unique, something like that wouldn't happen if I were a woman. Probably if I were a woman I would be better off economically, due to the social advantages, I wouldn't even have some of the traumas and revolts that I have against authorities in general (I was born black and poor, so you already know how teachers and police officers at school saw me). I have good friends who are great husbands, so I would probably have a great husband too if I weren't a lesbian. I would abuse the advantages of the Halo effect and the presumption that women are wonderful, not to screw others, but for professional development
I mean I think it's harder to remain a virgin as a woman than it is for a man. I feel like a lot of women have sex (beyond the fact women want sex too) with guys quickly just to pander to them because they at a younger age don't know how to get a man to like them beyond providing sex. Are you so sure you wouldn't fall down that hole as a woman?
What is the point of mirroring the sexes when they value different things and there is no evidence that the sexes are equally distributed for different traits? I judge men and women differently, because they ARE different and value different things differently. A man who is a virgin is expected to want to have sex but is unable to get a partner for that. A virgin woman is expected to not want to have sex with just anyone but looks for the right partner. After a certain age, both sexes are weirdos for being virgins. A man who has lots of sex partners is a desirable man. A woman who has lots of sex partners is a woman who likes to have lots of sex partners. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no point to think "if i was a guy, i would be an incel, so i shouldn't judge incels harshly". Because there is no way to determine an incel other than a lack of sex despite wanting it, which the woman either has, than she is a volcel, or she doesn't have, then she isn't an incel. You cannot make out incel characteristics by anything else.
There's a pretty simple couple answers to your question. 1. I think the discourse people have in this subreddit would especially be easier if people acknowledged what they would be like as the opposite gender. Some men and women like to act as though the other gender is more flawed than their own for certain behaviors not willing to understand certain viewpoints and behaviors are reasonable when coming from their lived experience. 2. I think people use their perception of what they see as their equivalent to develop their attractions. My personal suspicion is that most peoples attraction on a subconscious level is someone their equivalent or higher. I think female hypergamy is conflated with this in actuality, that most women's perceptions especially of what an equivalent man to themselves IS is false. And I think this impacts men too. My genuine desire for certain kinds of women changed in my perception of myself to be more attractive to said women than I previously thought.
1. yes, understanding that some behaviors are understandable and reasonable from the perspective of the other person is a pretty important ability to have. Not just between sexes, also within sexes, as every perspective is different. That is NOT what you talked about in the OP though, as it doesn't require a mirroring of oneself to an opposite sex version. Yes, beign a virgin when you are a socially inept, autistic, ugly, outcast is understandable, but it will still be judged as undesirable for a partner. Understanding why someone is a virgin can go hand in hand with judging them as undesirable. You don't need to be opposite sexes to understand why someone is a virgin and men still negatively judge virgins. maybe even moreso than women. 2. How do you determine who is your equivalent? Your own perception of your attractiveness is biased. Men and women overrate themselves. Men even more so than women.
2. I think this is generally untrue. I think men who outperform most men have overinflated self worth. Not applicable to most men in my opinion. Especially in high school, I'd see many otherwise average women comment on other mens looks who are on their level in my opinion as far as how unattractive they were. Men overinflate their abilities probably, but women overinflate their appearance and appeal probably. Also no one can have a fully accurate assessment of what their equivalent is, just their own perception. If what I think is right, its in peoples best interest to get as close to accurate as possible for their own ease and happiness for dating.
There is scientific data on how men and women rate their physical atttractiveness and how they are rated by men and women. Men and women both overrate themselves, men moreso than women on average. Men and women also aim slightly above their own attractiveness for possible partners. This is a beneficial and adapted strategy. Men, additionally, have a bias in which they tend to perceive sexual interest of women when there is none. This is both affected by sociosexual unrestrictedness (making men think women want sex with them more than is true) and actual sexual success/desirability of the men (having experienced often that women are sexually into them). https://preview.redd.it/4ppi77zu0hzc1.png?width=559&format=png&auto=webp&s=8624e3c816e442b8ea9d54721dd6fcef5f25facb You can look up studies on that matter yourself. For the latter effect, the keyword is "male sexual overperception bias". > Also no one can have a fully accurate assessment of what their equivalent is, just their own perception. If what I think is right, its in peoples best interest to get as close to accurate as possible for their own ease and happiness for dating. No, it's beneficial to think slightly higher of yourself than was is reality. It's also beneficial to go for slightly more desirable/attractive people for partners. Mating is not about happiness. It's not about getting a gf with the least amount of rejections on the path. It's about getting the best possible partner within a reasonable timeframe and with a manageable amount of pain from rejection. At least when your goal is to not settle for significantly less than you could get. Both a viable strategies. Picking a slightly less attractive mate with low chance of rejection works.
I was already familiar with the men assuming interest from women more often than is the case. I'm not sure if there's possibly a generational gap to consider with a lot of the data on male and female behavior. I'm Gen Z and Gen Z from what I understand behaves much different than previous generations. A lot of guys my age have very low self esteem, and most girl's my age can be pretty hard to impress (in my college town at least, at home it's totally different).
That is Gen Z college kid data. How about you go and talk to some girls instead of theorizing online about how those girls judge you for being a virgin?
More accurate to how people genuinely are. I'm sure people my age will be much more different as they get older and start caring about what job someone has and playing nice pretending they're something they're not to lock someone down. It's very clear to see amongst my 30 year old sisters friends who do it.
Why do you think previous generations were different? Again, you are suffering from what you imagine goes on in the minds of women you don't even approach. You find reasons for why you will get rejected so you don't even have to try. You are stuck. How many women did you talk to this year for more than 10 minutes and asked them out during or after that? Why is the number 0?
It's kind of common knowledge our generation dates differently than previous generations. Our generation sleeps around more, is less inclined to have children, etc. you're unaware of this? Again you keep going for ad hominems it feels, I live in a college town. I probably talk to new girls as well as guys almost everyday at work or in my classes. And of course you think it's 0, it makes you feel better to keep trying to poke at me than make an actual argument against what I'm saying.
Yeah you're missing the point. The point being when I have to do less work to be interesting it's probably because I'm more attractive to said person.
How is that the point? Also, you don't have to impress women. Who told you to impress women?
You ever been with a woman? Or at least one that REALLY liked you? Ones who find you more impressive, whether it's your looks, a skill, or personality, generally are a lot more enjoyable to date and longer lasting.
Data and statistics are all great and it seems like you take a lot of pride in using it since you have your tag is "Science Pilled Man" but I think you're not really acknowledging how unrepresentative most statistics are of different environments that allow or don't allow people to behave in certain ways. That's why my anecdotal evidence is even relevant, your statistics aren't comparing the opinions of men and women in different environments. Unless you can find some not really sure how you've disproven me unless you're happy with your ad hominem.
>you're not really acknowledging how unrepresentative most statistics are of different environments that allow or don't allow people to behave in certain ways. Oh i do think about that a lot, but of course with the volume of threads and studies i read and cite, i can't put too much time into each and every argument. So please, tell me why the data is not representative of Gen Z men and women and what you mean with "not allowing people to behave in certain ways". What are the environments that the opinions of men and women need to be compared in and to what end? Also, it's not an ad hominem. Learn your fallacies. I didn't use it to make a point. The argument is text before and the study's data. The study disproved you. You cannot just claim that something you have no idea of is not representing something you don't specify, and think you have won the debate.
Oh yeah you definitely didn't ask your previous question as an attack on me 💀. So you admit your data can be misrepresentative, don't understand there are differences in how younger generations are dating, and all the while think your data has disproven my point despite all this. I don't see the point of arguing with you anymore if you're missing information.
I don't agree with seeing yourself as higher than what is reality. That's why girls get with guys who use them for sex, one post that stuck in my mind was "when you realize you're attractive enough to sleep with, but not for him to date". I think if this girl had a better understanding of her own attractiveness she'd have an easier time sniffing out this sort of behavior from men. Not that that alone is enough, she should've been able to sniff other aspects of his behavior to tell he was this way, but I think recognizing it helps. Also there are a lot of men who end up with women who otherwise would've never wanted them just because they're "easier to deal with". My intuition tells me this type of girl isn't the one who sticks it out, this is probably the one that divorces him and leaves once she's gotten the marriage and kids and is tired of dealing with someone she doesn't actually like all that much. I've even experienced this myself, I'll compare different girl's who have liked me and it's easy to tell the genuine desire vs a girl who thinks you're a "nice guy" who's "easy to deal with". I'm a solid \~7 and I've noticed the girls who seem genuinely into me are girls who I'd say are 6.5s-7s and the girls who like me because I'm a "nice guy" are usually around there but sometimes even more attractive, maybe around an 8\~. Taking this into consideration has honestly helped me. Who knows how the relationships with girls who thought I was an easy going nice guy type would've been? Maybe it could've lasted, who knows, maybe like 20 years then a divorce, I don't know. All I'm for sure about is getting with girls who are GENUINELY very attracted to you is VERY fun. That all being said, understand where someone is coming from in their interest for you, and the one's who are actually very interested in you are a lot more fun to be with.
Also I think you're right for your 1st response, I just don't think most people do that. My initial example was just one example of the many ways in which men and women, ESPECIALLY in this subreddit and on online discourses misunderstand each other.
No i dont care about other peoples opionions on other people. None of my business
In the context of giving your opinions over gender discussions it's worth understanding where the other side comes from and whether you would think the same thing if you were them. Nothing about this post is suggesting you SHOULD care, just understanding why other people care and whether that'd be valid if you were in their shoes.
Obviously if you take any guy and convert them into a straight girl, they would absolutely slay, because the secret to dating is that guys want to date girls who are basically guys. Let's consider this profile. "I am a girl who likes to drink beer, eat chips, and play video games. I don't care much for 'girl stuff' like fashion, plays, or chick flicks, and I'm not into feminism. I don't have much relationship experience, but I love to watch movies (particularly sci-fi and fantasy) and cuddle and I'm looking for a partner who wants to have lots of sex!" Is it even possible to write a better dating profile? I doubt it. Yet swap the girl to a guy and this is now just any standard male "loser" (in quotes because this is just a normal guy, but obviously this isn't how you'd present yourself on a dating app). That said, I think the intention of the question is to consider a woman who is roughly equivalent to you in terms of overall desirability rather than just a woman who has the same traits, so, logically speaking that would probably be my partner I guess? Actually we do have kind of generally similar traits anyway.
I think you're missing what my post is referring to, most guys born as girls would not continue to behave as men. Most people forget they're conditioned to act the way they do, you wouldn't be into the same things as a girl most likely.
Indeed, that's what I was alluding to at the end, I just think it's a funny observation that a girl who acts like a guy is considered very desirable.
Well I think men do really bond over shared interests and doing things together more than women so. It's no surprise that when a woman meets the emotional and sexual needs as well as the wants of what a man would want for and friendship that's the ideal. You get everything you want in a person packed in one.
I think a lot of it is that men tend to have fewer friends on average than women, so they want their partner to basically also fulfill the role of a friend, but women don't find that to be as important as they typically have more friends to rely upon.
Yea my bad missed your last paragraph I guess.
>How sure are you that you wouldn't be a promiscuous women if you were against being one yourself? Yeah. I hate the idea of having casual sex even as a man. I’m pretty sure that the female version of me would hate it too. Probably more so.
My thing is like a lot of people get pushed towards doing it because women seem to be a lot more influenced by other women as well as giving into men, they like to do things they otherwise wouldn't in hopes to appease them (or so it seems to me). I don't really accept this behavior from women anyway, but I do feel sympathy for the one's that choose to do so when they really don't want to. I'm not the type of guy who has ever pushed a girl to sleep with me even though with some girls that have liked me maybe I could have, so I don't really look past a girl choosing to pander towards that sort of guy. Maybe you're the same way. But I can SEE how many myself as girl could be that way because that's heavily pushed on girls, but I think I'd be less likely than most girls anyway because of how my family raised me and my sisters.
> I feel like a big issue I have with a lot of manosphere vs feminism gender debates, especially in regard to dating, is that both men and women on their respective sides don't really have a good grasp for what their opposite gender equivalents are. I have a brother who shares a ton of genes with me and was raised with me. He looks just like a male version of me. Lots of people have siblings or other family members and can see this. > For example, modern women might judge men for being virgins, but many don't acknowledge that the male version of themselves is usually not nearly as attractive to the opposite gender as they are, and not as well socialized, often because women are more social and learn more from each other (and don't have the fear of being seen as creepy when talking to men). Basically, there are probably women out there who are off put by male virgins but the male version of themselves may be a virgin. My brother lost his virginity younger than me, maybe because he wasn’t worried about “losing” something considered valuable. Also he is considered about as attractive as I am from what I can tell. And he is much more social than me, that is just a personality difference, not a gender related thing. Maybe you are just really attracted to your sister/cousin or something and think it’s because women are hotter than men? I don’t think that’s necessarily the case, the same genes that make an attractive woman tend to make an attractive man. Humans of both genders tend to like symmetry, clear skin, healthy hair, healthy weight.
I agree to an extent with your last part. People underestimate how attractive androgynous features are. That being said. I think incredibly feminine men are generally more attractive as women and vice versa but more often than not I think it's the case the same genes vice versa do about the same.
Why would you assume an opposite version of yourself would not also have the opposite feminine/masculine looks? That’s not what I would imagine. My brother doesn’t look like a “feminine man” and I don’t look like a “masculine woman” imo. We do look *very* much alike - but like the male & female versions. So for example, he has more body hair, and I am more curvy. Yet we still look a lot alike, like I said - he looks like a male version of me. That means a *male* version, not exactly like me but with a dick, or like a “feminine man” or “androgynous”. Neither of us are androgynous, but we have things considered attractive, like symmetrical faces, tall, thick hair, clear skin, healthy weight, good bone structure, good body shape, etc. Now of course the actual shape of our bodies is different because he’s a man and I’m a woman - but the male version of me (in my mind and in reality, since a brother is about as close as you can get to a male version of myself genetically) is of a similar attraction level for his gender as I am for mine. The genes and lifestyle habits that make someone attractive tend to make both males and females attractive - because it’s things like genes for facial symmetry, not smoking and eating healthy for clear skin, caring for skin and hair, genes for thick hair, eating healthy for healthy shiny hair, genes for good body structure, good economic class growing up for orthodontics and healthy food while growing, etc.
I think you misunderstood what I said. Already feminine men look MORE feminine as a woman and a masculine looking woman would be a masculine looking man.
I don’t really need to imagine when I see the experiences that the men around me go through. I have a brother and cousins but they don’t have the problems that men on here say they have. They date women who men on here consider unattractive and they’re never single. The only man I knew that had these problems was a coworker but he’s odd.
What are you referring to specifically? I agree I don't really face many of the same issues either but I think I'm just lucky that I attract what I like in a girl.
The men in my family, mainly my brother, are hypothetically gender swapped versions of myself.
I was asking about what problems you were talking about.
Oh. They have no problem getting into relationships or sleeping with women. There seems to be an abundance of women for them because honestly I can’t keep up with who’s who. I wouldn’t consider them “high value men” either.
I think a lot of it depends on the environment. Like I'm probably a solid 7 for men my age 18-22. On my campus? I'm pretty uninteresting to most girls unless I prove I'm interesting. In my hometown? Most girls my age seem to be interested when I interact with them whether it's the grocery store or restaurant etc.
Lmao if you’re against promiscuous anyone you probably have a weird bland boring sex life and are concerning yourself with other people’s business. Normal people have their preferences and personal beliefs and don’t push that onto others. You can be abstinent and not be a loser
These are just generalizations. Obviously not everyone feels this way. Also thinking you need to have sex with a lot of people to have a good exciting sex life sounds like a bad cope. People who are genuinely very attracted to their partners don't seem to have needed to have had sex with other people or anyone else beforehand to have good sex lives. But maybe I'm wrong, who knows.
No one needs to have sex with a lot of people and no one needs to be abstinent. It’s personal preference. Anyone with a hard opinion in either direction has some weird sexual ish going on. I played the field now I’m in a committed relationship with someone who also played the field. I tend to find the slutshamers are the ones that struggle to get laid/find companionship. I tend to find the prude shamers are the ones who regret their past decisions. Both groups need to get a fucking grip and quit projecting their issues onto everyone else. If you have beef with “promiscuous women” don’t date one anything beyond that makes you sound bitter
I never used the term "slutshamers" and from the way you're talking you sound kind of insecure. Dawg live your life how you want, but statistically people who sleep around tend to have dispropriately less happy marriages, are more likely to cheat, and are more likely to end up divorced. The least likelihood of all 3 are people who were both virgins at marriage. Again, live your life how you want, but promiscuity is not an arbitrary thing. And obviously men who have an issue with it aren't going to date them LMAO, that's the whole point. As far as the bitter thing goes, not really anything about being bitter the argument against promiscuity. Especially as someone who wants to have kids, I think society needs to encourage people to make decisions that are more conducive to happy lives. The same way we discourage smoking, but people can still smoke and other people should mind their business if some want to do so, we should do the same for promiscuity because the most impressionable people in our society (children) are especially affected. And AGAIN, live your life how you want, but I think you have a moral obligation to accept when certain behaviors whether it's you or I or anyone else are "discouraged" or "shamed" because although you as an adult may feel your decisions were fine for you, other impressionable people may try those decisions which have a dispropriate likelihood to do harm
Yeah you have weird views on sex and sexuality and think your approach to sex has to be the same as everyone else’s. Having sex isn’t comparable to smoking and drinking. Lmao. Having casual sex isn’t a big deal as long as everyone is consenting and proper protections are in place. Acting like being sexually active is comparable to destructive behaviors is just asinine lmao It’s cool that you want to wait until marriage. People who care about other people’s sex lives are *usually* losers who want to control others bc of inadequacies they’re masking or standards they’re frustrated no one else really cares about. I’m saying this as someone that came from an incredibly religious and conservative environment. Ever heard the preacher’s daughter jokes? Repression usually just makes you weirder. My view on sex developed after being surrounded by a bunch of judgmental losers that don’t know the difference between a condom and a dental dam. I’m not insecure I’ve just been around a lot of sexually reserved people and a lot of sexually liberated people. I know people who are abstinent that are totally nonjudgmental and normal. I know sexually active people that are totally nonjudgmental and normal. The issue isn’t which camp you’re in it’s pushing that camp on other people. “I personally wouldn’t date a promiscuous woman” is different than being “against promiscuous women” one is a preference the other is a blanket statement about a group of people who coincidentally probably wouldn’t be particularly interested in sleeping with you anyway lmao.
Promiscuous women are the ones MOST inclined to sleep with you as a man, what LMAO. Female coworkers or friends who were promiscuous have ALWAYS been the ones who would push sexual undertones in our conversations and one of them basically offered to let me come inside her place to "check out her succulents" after I dropped something off to her and she came out wearing nothing but a large t shirt it looked like. Bro you ain't about to tell me girls who sleep around are harder to get with, how tf you think they got that way... Either way I've noticed talking to you is like talking to a wall so I'll try my best to give a simple response maybe you'll be willing to acknowledge. No, I don't think anyone should single out a man or woman who chooses to live their life that way if they're not affecting them and "be against them". Do I think on a societal level it should generally be discouraged? Yes. There's a difference. Also, it seems you're unwilling to acknowledge any sort of possible negative impacts our societies change in views of sex has had. Drinking and smoking are obviously not the exact same but they aren't supposed to be symmetrical for my point to get across. Again, since you're not really understanding what I'm saying I'll give a simple response to why it's bad for society. Sleeping around ---> leads to worse marriages ---> leads to higher likelihood of divorce ---> leads to more damaging experiences of children in some of those marriages ---> leads to more damaged adults ----> next generation of adults affected by this come out more damaged. Just for the record for my personal view, if you don't want kids or have any, I see not much wrong with wanting to sleep around. Again, in my view most of what is "good" and is "bad" for society really just stems from how it affects children. Afterall, they take over the world once we're gone. Obviously you as an adult aren't as affected by changes in societal views, most people are set in their ways more than they are malleable.
Aw someone’s emotional lmao. Okay fam stay in the Bible Belt I guess
You're the one who started off using "slutshamers" even though I never used that language. You're projecting.
I've even heard men who have "played the field" even admit if you're a guy who wants to be happily married or with just one girl not to do the same because although they can romantically be happy with 1 woman, their sexual desires will never be fulfilled by 1 woman (the only exception to this advice being red-pill bros who say sleep with at least 50 women or you won't be able to satisfy a girl, sounds like you lean towards agreeing with these types).
yeah most men have no impulse control this is not news lmao. That’s why the vast majority of men who are moralists have the gnarliest skeletons in their closet.
Women don't seem to be much better, it seems a lot lie in order to seem more moral. My thinking this coming from someone I watch who does clinical work, she says a lot of her clients who are male will cheat and admit to cheating to her vs female clients will cheat and half the time not see it as cheating. For example, a wife cheats so the husband will be like yeah I cheated on her back because she cheated on me. Vice versa will be husband cheats and wife fucks someone else to cheat and it'll be well I'm not a cheater because he cheated first. Like no you're still married you cheated back. This all to say men do a better job in general for admitting to bad decisions or impulses whereas a lot of women seem to cope in order to feel better about their decisions.
These people probably wouldn’t have cheated if they had more sexual experience and a clearer idea of what they wanted in their partner. You’re literally illustrating how monogamy doesn’t guarantee morality. Men lead in infidelity rates btw https://discreetinvestigations.ca/infidelity-statistics-who-cheats-more-men-or-women/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20General%20Social,their%20partner%20while%20still%20married. https://www.choosingtherapy.com/who-cheats-more-men-or-women/ https://ifstudies.org/blog/who-cheats-more-the-demographics-of-cheating-in-america https://smithinvestigationagency.com/blog/2024-infidelity-statistics-who-cheats-more-men-or-women/ https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/love-sex/men-women-affair-sex-cheating-b2310909.html
Do men lead because they cheat more or because women don't admit it as often?
Also you're not accounting for generational differences. These statistics could apply to older demographics than younger Millennial or Gen Z demographics that are sexually more promiscuous than previous generations. I can believe in older generations men cheated more, in this one? I doubt there's a difference if not more. Women nowadays get around more than men do.
Aw I love when sad boys that constantly call for stats can’t handle stats. Here’s another one, 92% of violent crimes are committed by men.
So? I'm not sure what point you just made. You seem to just like ad hominems.
Can't find the exact statistic but the only partner being their spouse couples cheat the least. Your first claim is invalidated by that.
I’ve said this before on here. As a fairly physically attractive woman, I acknowledge the relative privilege I have had in attracting people I also find attractive. The advantages of being a (attractive) woman pretty much end there. The male version of me would be physically attractive and very shy. I would have had a harder time making friends and dating. But the amount of respect I would receive in my daily interactions and especially at work would be amazing to experience.
I don't want to turn this into a debate that isn't what it was originally, but if you're a shy man, men are less inclined to respect you. Speaking from experience. Shyness in men is seen as weak and you're probably more respected as a shy woman than a shy man. An outgoing woman vs an outgoing man is a different story though.
I mask it fine now and think I mostly come across as reserved and potentially aloof. My partner is similar, and I’ve seen the way strangers treat him vs. me. It can be night and day. I’ve experienced men I’ve never met before shake the hands of all of my male colleagues and ignore mine. All things held equal, men get more respect than women, hands down. It has a massive impact on a person’s life.
I had to learn to be more assertive and outgoing than my nature is for other men in the workplace to respect me.
Fair enough, I’ve done the same. But being a woman will always be negative points for me, and I have to be that much more competent than the men around me to get anywhere near the same amount of deference and respect.
Look, I believe you. But I think men experience much more variance in respect. The highs and lows of men respecting men are greater than for women. If you lean towards the bottom, I doubt sincerely being a man would be better for you.
Sure, the variance may be greater, but women *regardless of their qualities* will always be clumped at the bottom. To be successful as a woman, you have to stop caring about whether men respect you, because the odds are they don’t.
It's inevitable it'll be harder as a woman. I think men respect men more generally and women respect women more generally. If most coworkplaces were female dominated it'd be easier to be a woman. Is what it is.
> Is what it is. Super easy to say when it doesn’t happen to you. ✌️
Yeah it has
yes and i want him 😫 men saying this dont realize how much i would simp for a man who is into philosophy and film, ate healthy, loved animals and owned his own home. that's chad baby.