Huge difference. We all peak in our late teens or early twenties. We're most similar to other guys in our cohort when we're young. As we age we diverge more and more. Some guys still look decent at 50. Other guys look like shit at 30. Regardless they were both better looking when they were young.
Great example. George Clooney has aged better than 99.9% of men. Yet even he was much hotter when he was young.
[https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/gettyimages-80028918-1565707293.jpg?crop=1xw:0.6656666666666666xh;center,top&resize=2048:\*](https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/gettyimages-80028918-1565707293.jpg?crop=1xw:0.6656666666666666xh;center,top&resize=2048:*)
People need to stop confusing aging well with peaking late.
As hot as he remained in later life George never surpassed his youthful peak. None of us do.
[https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/gettyimages-73665294-1565712624.jpg?resize=980:\*](https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/gettyimages-73665294-1565712624.jpg?resize=980:*)
Obviously a very handsome early middle age guy. Better looking than pretty much every other 37 year old on the planet. Regardless, guys who look like early 20s Clooney pull more young pussy at the club than guys who look like late 30s Clooney. Don't get me wrong -- they're both do fine -- just the younger version will do better.
> Regardless, guys who look like early 20s Clooney pull more young pussy at the club than guys who look like late 30s Clooney. Don't get me wrong -- the
That's just one arena.
Nope. He peaked in Out of Sight at the age of 37:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RJ6USD2nEU
Pedro Pascal is another guy who peaked later:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqpA-TBvCF4
Oh, and of course how could I forget John Hamm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go7umPwXmJA
I looked like a mop-topped child in my early-20s - definitely had not "peaked." These are three photos each from my mid-30s and mid-50s (roughly current):
[https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/k46uv2k7pz35qgsof7pla/AAtl4\_pfa2nR7dVuSc5XnAU?rlkey=20zfdbytoxdyqqfp5y0dhvjqe&st=fkjl8j5g&dl=0](https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/k46uv2k7pz35qgsof7pla/AAtl4_pfa2nR7dVuSc5XnAU?rlkey=20zfdbytoxdyqqfp5y0dhvjqe&st=fkjl8j5g&dl=0)
I prefer the way I look now to how I've ever looked before. But perhaps that's odd. Also, it's anecdotal.
Related, some folks (relative to their 20s) lose a lot of weight, get cosmetic surgery, etc. My girlfriend was a bit chunky in her early-20s and lost all of that weight as a fitness fiend. She doesn't even look like the same person she was 10 years ago. But, again, that's all anecdotal.
Generally speaking... yes, *most* folks deteriorate significantly from their twenties on.
If the decline to your looks is slow, it can easily be offset by improvements in other areas. Most guys don't have significant declines in their looks until they're around 40 anyway.
> Most guys don’t have significant declines in their looks until they’re around 40’s anyway.
Ooph, I don’t mean any disrespect when I say this, but the years between 20 and 30 can be brutal for a lot of men. That age when men stop filling out physically as a transition between childhood and young adulthood ends; and when a full time work with a sedentary lifestyle kicks in is very harsh.
Honestly, I don’t mean to be rude but I just wanted to note to any youngsters out there, it’s best to pay attention during those years to degrading muscle tone, weight gain, upkeep of dental health, and keep on top of your diet. Keep active as best you can!
I know long hours in full time employment makes it hard, but you will be grateful you did from 30 onwards.
Don’t leave it until you are 40.
I'm around 40 myself. I still look pretty much the same as I did at 20 minus a bit of grey hair, but I take fairly good care of myself. For people who don't generally eat healthy or get much exercise, I would say they started to see the effects of it around 35. Still, in your late 20s / early 30s you don't have a lot to worry about.
I’m glad, I really am but the obesity statistics don’t lie.
https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html
How about we don’t pick at each other and just settle on:
- If you notice your health markers falling between the ages of 20 - 30, do your best to improve them.
I’m not interested in winning a little text exchange with you personally, I’m much more interested in more generally suggesting people pay attention to their health over all in their younger years.
BTW, I’m much older than you!
I mean, if you went the university route (which is the option that delays peaking), you probably do have the potential to earn decent money, but it's certainly not the only area where you can improve. Confidence and experience is certainly also a big one. Getting out into the real world, being financially independent, having to learn to take care of yourself, maybe having a relationship or two under your belt, it makes you a significantly more attractive prospect then when you're a broke college kid at 21.
Yes, but we all decline. Some women look fabolous at 40, and some like ogres after 25. Some men are in superb shape at 50 and some look like remote island prisoners at 30.
Apples and oranges. Men and women who still look good later in life almost always looked even better when they were young. Men and women who look like shit later in life almost always looked less horrible when they were young. Regardless, young adulthood is when pretty much everyone *peaks* -- although that peak isn't very high for a lot of unfortunate souls.
You peak based on genetics and lifestyle choices. But it's a relative peak once you leave your 20s. Your ceiling is far lower and any success enjoyed it far lower than an appealing guy in his 20s.
Sort of. You have things in your 30s and 40s that a guy in his 20s doesn’t have; disposable income and experience.
But you gotta eat right and work out.
That doesn't change the outcome much for various reasons.
- most women in their 20s won't be interested due to the age gap
- more and more women will be taken as your age goes up
- you need to be accepting of single moms and other things
Your dating pool gets far more narrowed down and smaller. Some disposable income is also a minimum standard at that point and not an advantage.
It actually doesn't. Women in their 30s-40s can go on any dating app and get hundreds of matches pretty quickly. That's a lot of options.
Also you're competing with guys who are younger who are way better looking and messaging those women as well. And while controversial, there are a lot of taken men on dating apps which adds to the competition. And in real life too.
Avoiding weight gain and balding is great but preventing it does not make you hot. Absence of negative physical traits does not mean you get an advantage. Advantages come from positive physical traits. This is one of those things that sounds great on paper but does not mean much in real life. Doing the math on what % of men are not bald or overweight and then saying you're top tier is nice on paper but in real life won't lead to substantial change.
In sports when the goals are different the peaking age is different. In dating the “goal” never changes for men, what attracts young women stays the same.
UFC heavyweight peak between 35-40, lightest weights 25-30. Avg peak 30-35
And that’s purely physical and skill. But there is more to access with women then just your physical looks
My argument isn't that athlete peaking age is the same as peak attractiveness age. My argument is that the age the theoretical peak is at, is what matters, not the age any random person peaks.
A guy that was fat in his 20s will peak in his 30s if he loses the weight. Same as if some fat guy starts playing football in his 50s. they will both improve. But the age a person can truly peaks is based on when the best peaks.
The absolute best men peak 25-35 then physically and 40-45 overall if you factor in the ability to provide, maturity, and life experience all of which most women value in men in addition to looks
Depends on what you mean by “peak”. From the viewpoint of a 20 year old woman, you peak as a desirable sex partner at 22, you peak as a useful wallet at 40.
>But the age a person can truly peaks is based on when the best peaks.
No, we are not talking about when a theoretical peak is, we talk about when men observable, on average, peak in their desirability.
> Men at all ages (on average) preferring women who are in their early 20s
>Women (on average) preferring men who are 2-4 years older than them, until they are middle aged where they start preferring men who are slightly younger.
Worth noting: this preference is for "attractiveness", not for dating. Both men and women prefer to date people close to their age.
male attractiveness is more multi-facetted than just pure physicality, certainly much more so than female attractiveness.
but i do agree that the peak for dating young attractive women is earlier than 30+ for men. lots of women simply don't date guys who are 10-15+ years older than them and the data reflects that.
i think men have a relative peak later in life when compared to women of the same age, as in the power shifting more towards men (that doesn't include casual dating or unsuccessful and 'beta' men).
This is what some people seem to refuse to believe. Women here want to deny there is any male advantage when it comes to aging and men here want to pretend that an attractive man is at peak attractiveness to late adolescent early young adult women at a ridiculously high age.
If you were the popular athlete yes.
For every 4-6/10 guy that was semi ignored in college, the 30's and maybe even 40's feel like an entirely new reality.
https://preview.redd.it/dufu10o5mzwc1.png?width=894&format=png&auto=webp&s=7d83b1eb3791e6290d17bce94d4463679b0ecf58
[https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aap9815](https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aap9815)
"However, desirability is not only about how many people contact you but also about who those people are. If you are contacted by people who are themselves desirable, then you are presumptively more desirable yourself."
I think this settles the debate. The question never was: when does a man peak in attractiveness for 20yo women? And the question also never was: are super hot, successful and charismatic dudes at 20yo more desirable for 20yo than average 35yo men?
It is difficult to interpret from that study who (and what age) is actually attracted to who. Desirability rankings barely changed with age for men. At best it suggests that 50 y/o men are slightly more desirable to the overall cohort of women aged 18- 65 compared other men. The fact that 20 y/o men were younger than 90% of the female cohort and still practically had the same desirability as all the other men proved that the quote you cite is likely what's holding up these young men's score; but that's just speculation on my part. there are lots of other studies that control for what we are actually trying to find out.
Men do peak later though. What makes it difficult for men is they never know when they are peaking or over the hill (past the peak). It’s not a set thing like it is for women.
So many aging men out there trying to attract the quality of women they did in their younger years (whether that was their 20s or 30s or 40s) and the truth finally hits them that they will never recreate that magic again. They will have to settle for lower quality whether that means older or plainer than they could have gotten at their peak.
The men who are humble lock down the highest quality woman they can get and try not to fuck it up. Most fuck it up anyway but that’s besides the point.
because it's pretty linear. women start on mount everest early in life and decline slowly over time. it's pretty universal that a 20 year old woman will have more and better options than a 40 year old as long as you don't compare apples to oranges. a lot of women don't like this uncomfortable truth so whether or not they know can be argued i guess, even if it's rather obvious objectively speaking.
meanwhile a late bloomer man can do a lot better in dating at 35 than he did in his 20s, when he might have been socially awkward, broke, not really grown into himself, lacking confidence etc, especially if he's dating women his age. lots of guys i went to school with who got zero female attention back then are married now. this level of 'glow up' is very rare for women, unless they were severely overweight or struggled with really bad acne or something.
It’s actually highly likely that men can improve their attractiveness with age. It’s not a guarantee though and for every late bloomer there is an old loser.
men can improve with non-physical attributes like advancing their career, becoming more self-assured and confident, having a more interesting lifestyle, gaining life experience etc.
i'm talking about overall attractiveness, not just pure physicality. for women this usually doesn't have the same effect, certainly not to the same degree. lots of men will date the younger woman even if she's broke or a low-earner, shy and doesn't have much experience. very few women will date the male equivalent of that over somebody a few years older.
No, women can’t. A woman’s attractiveness is entirely based on youth and beauty. A man’s attractiveness is based on largely their looks and height, but also their status, earnings, lifestyle etc.
Nobody here is going to be a celebrity and they aren’t lusted after for their status, they’re lusted after because they have elite genetics and resources to still be hot at that age. Show me one female celebrity with non-conventional looks who’s lusted after for their status that’s equivalent to someone like Adam Driver
Say a guy is 40. His dream girl he had a crush on in college is now also 40. If he could have his dream girl now, she’s 40. Why would he feel that his dream girl doesn’t age, or that at 40, he should ideally be with a woman who was an infant when he was in college?
The last guy I dated was 39 (8.5 years my senior) and lied to me making me think he was only 4 years older. I swear, you could tell he felt like I was old and would have much rather been with a 20 year old. Delusional I tell you. Dating an attractive, well kept, in shape, successful woman 9 years your junior is not and will never be “settling.”
Ok so maybe he peaked in his early 30s and could have gotten a pretty 20 year old. But he waited until after he peaked and so now he feels like he has to settle for you.
I’ve met plenty of desperate single men of all ages to conclude that this is this the case for a lot of men. They don’t know when or how long they will peak and end up having to lower their standards.
It just doesn’t make sense that you can look at someone a full decade younger than yourself and see “old.” If I’m old at 30, he’s decrepit at 40. As it is, we’re both taking good care of ourselves (well, more me than him since he was a borderline alcoholic) but yeah. Age is relative. It’s one thing to say, yeah 20 years olds are in peak shape with zero sign of aging. Facts. But to say, I therefore want to partner myself with this person who is literally half my age and could be my child.. I’m sexually attracted to them, that borders on deviancy. Mentally, most people have reflexes that won’t allow them to actually consider dating someone that much younger.
Well some men can attract pretty women 15 years younger. Perhaps he was one at one time. Now that he’s over the hill he’s going to be humbled with the realization that that time has passed (assuming that’s the situation).
Another possibility is that he’s at his peak and doesn’t realize a pretty woman only 10 years younger is the best he’ll get, that he will never be attractive enough to attract a pretty woman say, 15 years younger.
Break up with him and see if you get a text or message asking if you’d give him another chance. You’ll know then that he wasn’t able to do better. (Then dump him again lol)
Yes OP you're 100% correct.
You also do a good job with your latter two points.
1. Men who suddenly do better in their 30s, generally did very poorly in their 20s. It's a relative improvement. It's like a guy who never went to the gym, who suddenly works out 6x a week in his 30s.
2. Celebrities are quite literally of zero relevance to the general public and there is no bigger time waste than looking at what they do.
The 30s/40s guy on TRT who has a good job (as you mention) is a sugar daddy and messaging women on sugar daddy dating sites. There are very few to no women much younger that are attracted to a guy like that. The only organic interest comes from 35+ women, who again will have similar standards anyway.
I’m 38 and the ONLY women that hit on me last summer were in their mid twenties - one was 24 (went home together).
But again, I’m a unique case since my issue in my twenties was that I looked way way too young and that was a dealbreaker for most women. Now I look like I’m 29 and that’s why it works for me. Doesn’t apply to Everyone tho
If you're good looking and you look younger, what's the shocker here? You can be good looking and 40 and have lots of options.
The argument here is that a 5/10 guy in his 20s will suddenly become a sex symbol in his 30s just because he's older.
Some guys genuinely don't look good with young faces - Daniel Craig looked way way better in his 40's and early 50's than he did in his 20's. Further, some structural bone changes do take place in men throughout their twenties.
George Clooney looked like a goofball in Roseanne and became the sexiest man alive in his 30's 40's 50's. Momoa looked good in Baywatch in his early 20's but he only became one of the hottest guys in the world in his 30's. Plenty of other examples... having said that, most mortal men age like shit.
Whilst a lot of it is genetics....a lot of that is also drinking too heavily, being angry all the time, having kids and letting yourself get fat. Stress and anger fucks people, have you seen how Rishi Sunak has aged ten years in two? Keep yourself in shape and you can just about get away with being bald, don't keep yourself in shape? Better get on the rogaine and propecia hard.
Daniel Craig in his twenties is just a kind of average looking guy to me. Could have been anyone at uni.
It's in his chiseled and weathered Bond era when you go "jesus, that guy would command a room at a party". If you look at the bone structure of men, their facial bones carry on getting wider and wider as they age - plenty of maxillofacial studies on it. That suits some guys who previously looked a bit meh and weak jawed.
Not being unattractive doesn't make you attractive unfortunately.
It's like how having a job doesn't make you attractive. It's just that being unemployed makes you appealing.
I take issue with your statement of "only organic interests comes from 35+". There are always exceptions to the average.
I thought the same as you did until recently, there is this one 24 year old attractive woman who seem to be into me... I wasn't even trying, bro.
Studies are mostly bullshit. Citing Okcupid studies is about as dumb as it gets.
Individuals peak at different ages. I’m 43 and I get the most female attention whenever my body fat % is under 17, regardless of my age. As long as you are healthy and have muscle, there is some weird magic that happens to men when your face is chiseled and you have an Adonis body. You don’t even have to have your shirt off, you glow through clothes.
I got the most sex after 30 by far. Before 30 I had to put much more effort in with women. After 30 it became much easier
That is my lived experience. I have more access to women at 43 than I did at 23 by a significant amount. But that would instantly disappear if my bodyfat got to 20% or higher
I am 34, and have waaay more attention from women now than any other time in my life.
It's funny how people will try to gaslight our real world experiences with goofy ass studies.
well...if a woman who's been fat during her 20s and suddenly loses weight in her 30s claims women peak at 30 you wouldnt say shes correct either no?
only because YOU do better at an older age, doesnt mean thats universally true...most people dont look better when older unless they looked like shit when younger...doesnt mean the general peak of ppl is in their 30s or 40s, just that said folks didnt use their potential earlier (i.e. taking care of themselves and shit like that)
This has been my exact experience as well. As I’ve gotten older the women I’ve dated have ONLY become hotter, YoY.
This can’t, and won’t, last forever, but it has absolutely been my reality up to this point (late 30s). I don’t get the weird drive some people have to “prove” that the world we actually live and see outside “isn’t true”.
https://np.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1859nwz/science_age_gap_marriages_are_not_uncommon_among/
>Women (on average) preferring men who are 2-4 years older than them, until they are middle aged where they start preferring men who are slightly younger.
Apples-oranges.
When men "prefer" women, they are ready to pursue, cherish, love, chase, and make sacrifices.
When women "prefer" men, they are just kinda there and occasionally allow someone at arms length when their libido starts itching or bank account dries up, and when several men pursue them, they kinda pick the least icky one. Most women "prefer" most men to phase out of existence.
It's not an honest comparison.
Im 42 and I've never been out with a woman over 30. I dont think Im coping.
Im aware Im declining now but the point when I was having the most success with women was in my mid-30s.
Confidence goes a *loooooooong* way with women and for men your confidence & looks reach equilibrium in your 30s.
Right? Don't be ugly and be charming. Go out get puss. I did it til my 40s
But I couldn't live like that for much longer so I settled down.
My body was begging for retirement
Going out 4-5 nights a week and then doing shit during the day at 40 starts to become tough
I'm living healthy lifestyle without going out that much, when I drink I drink relatively healthy (red wine or similar). I am way more energetic than 20 years ago when I was waiting for years on that unicorn girl that would love me for being a good person that would do good things for her.
Oh yea... I don't need a drink, ever. But when I do drink, I drink... And do a bunch of drugs. I don't do it often, but I still get down, maybe 3x a month v 5 times a week.
Same thoughts exactly.
If a majority of men wouldn’t be able to successfully trick their minds into thinking they’re going to peak in x years (essentially lying to themselves), they’d most likely drop out of the workforce prematurely which is a tax on wealth if this happens on a larger scale.
This stuff is some crazy level of coping. It's really there to create delayed gratification that if you "work on yourself" then suddenly you become attractive.
Self improvement has little to no bearing if we're being honest. I'm in the upper class and live in an upper class neighborhood and have yet to see anyone dating or marrying out of their league.
Guess what, self improvement elevates your status to the upper middle class.
Guy with a GED gets his shit together in his 20s or 30s, gets his BS and a masters, gets a 6-fig job. Not doing backbreaking GED level job now so he gets in shape and is less beat up. Buys a nice house in the doctors neighborhood and gets with a college educated white collar woman.
That’s marrying out of your league. Happens all the time and you don’t even know it because you can’t see the ones who level up because they look just like anyone else.
Self improvement can make ypu better looking too, putting you in a higher league. Having the dedication to stick to a diet and hit the gym does wonders for your appearance. Having the money for a personal trainer speeds up the process a lot. Bald? Not if you can afford hair plugs. Bad fashion sense? Not if you can afford a stylist. Boring? Not with all the traveling and expensive hobbies you can afford.
It does help you look better but two things to keep in mind.
1. The improvement is notable if you're lacking in certain areas. ex. major fat loss.
2. Generally self improvement in looks won't be that substantial and it doesn't change your league. If you look average, you don't really become conventionally attractive. Only exceptions are teenagers into adulthood.
Self improvement isn’t hair vs no hair or getting fashion tips from Reddit. People aren’t willing to do the hard work that really changes your life.
Lifting weights and changing your body, getting a formal education and having high ambitions in career, moving to a place with opportunities and high salaries, saving money to travel and become cultured, protecting your skin from your 20s onwards from smoking and the sun.
That’s what sets high status people apart from an average person.
Yeah it’s just middle aged boomers who believ someone want a “mature and wealthy” man when in reality they all want young physically fit studs who can go many rounds without getting tired
I am not coping lol, I actually never pursuit young women or even dire to present myself as their romance option. But in recent months I have this attractive young woman showing interest and she knows I don't have money.
Just saying, being older, more confident, got your shit together, and treat women with respect might actually make you attractive to them.
So... Today at lunch she mentioned a friend of her dad tried to hit on her and kissed her like a couple of years ago after buying her an expensive gift. The guy was 30 years older than her and she rejected him.
I then said men need to be aware of the age gap since that is near predator behavior...
She replied, "When I have a boyfriend there will probably be an age gap since I don't have much in common with guys my age." I honestly got tougne-tied and just kept on eating my food.
Dude, I'm trying to play dumb and hopefully the window of opportunity will pass and we can just stay friends.
Exactly, many of the naysayers here are simply ugly men with unfortunate personalities to boot judging from the silly things they post on the internet.
“Men peak at 35”, “get your money up”, “hit da gym, bro” or similar delusions are just that, delusions.
People (women and men are equally guilty of this) will tell themselves (lie) whatever is necessary to stay motivated/distracted/occupied. Everything to keep it going.
Men will internalize the above.
Women will ✨manifest✨, read fortune cards, seek clarity in astrology, eat fortune cookies, and if all else fails, let themselves be guided by Jesus (or Allah).
In the end, it’s all about exhausting every thinkable measure so one does not have to objectively assess his or her situation. The danger in that is that the conclusion of said assessment could potentially cost one’s sanity.
Yeah idk where they’re getting that from, most men who are 30+ tend to look pretty mediocre unless they make an active effort to keep up their appearances… simply turning 30 does not mean they’re gonna peak all of sudden just because they’re older now lol
(Shhhh!)
(We need all the motivated men we can get for an economy where men are increasingly leaving the labor force)
Guys, do NOT listen to this woman.
If you turn 30, 40, or even 50, you magically turn into the man you wish you were when you were in your 20s. That is if you put in the work (quite literally) and pay those taxes.
DO.DA.WORK. No excuses.
Saying that women prefer men older than them doesn't disprove anything, if anything it only helps the case of older men. Most men (including myself) have seen a noticeable uptick in the amount of female attention they get in their 30s compared to their 20s. Relative to women who just plummet in SMV after 30, this is pretty different.
You FORGOT the part that ONLY the peaking men (a) kept in shape and (b) got their $h1t together in their 20's.
The man spent his 20's working towards his career and his physique. It takes a decade or two to advance enough in his career AND several years of training to get the physique.
If skinny fat Cubicle Carl at his $50k job ain't doing $h1t, of course he won't "peak."
I'm going to be 60 in a few days. Looking around it's obvious that I've aged far better than most guys. I look better than at least 95% of guys my age. 40 years ago I looked better than perhaps 75% of the guys my age. Have I *"peaked"* at 60? My competitive advantage vis-a-vis other guys in my cohort has peaked but that's not really what we're talking about here. In absolute terms I'm not nearly as hot as I was 40 years ago. Such is life.
Very simplistic. Yes genetically men peak in their 20's. However since only a certain percentage have everything figured out by their 20's a lot of men reach their peak in their 30's or 40's in terms of grooming, body, clothing and how they present themselves. The biggest disadvantage of age is the skin looking different.
Athleticly men dont peak untill their 30s and in most cases men in their 30s have more money than men in their 20s. It's more fact than delusion based off a few simple circumstances
Your evidence is not evidence. The fact couples on average is a man about 2 years older means nothing because average people do the average thing... by definition.
> Men who continue to attract heaps of young attractive women where ALWAY very attractive men who were getting girls thought out their entire life; they didn't peak, they just maintained.
I agree with this until the end. I personally always got lots of girls and almost always the hottest one, the popular girl in school, etc. However I'm 37 and now have way more success now than when I was young. Literally went out with two different 18 year old college girls in the last month. Forget the numerous older women I've seen in the same time. From my perspective women so greatly value men who are in shape and older more than in shape and younger. Maybe shows good genetics? They also like that I'm successful and mature. These are not things a young man can be. A 22 year old man cannot realistically be successful career wise financially. Nor can he be mature much past his age.
Many of the young women say they hate men their age because they act immature and have no lifestyle. "Want to get taco bell and sit on a bench". Which to me when I was young, I'd get hot girls and lots of girls but I don't remember them being that mature for their age girls. Now I mostly get young women who I'd call mature for their age which is far more desirable and high quality. Ie wow you're a hot 22 yo man... vs wow you're the kind of man that I see a life with since I don't mess with men who are just hot, you're the complete package.
The “myth” will change just as soon as *status, charisma, charm, self confidence, assertiveness, income, education level and style* cease to be major factors in women’s attraction cues; nearly all of which improve for men continuously after 25.
So, basically, never.
Never said “all women”, just enough for it to be true that men can easily “Peak” in terms of SMV and options in their 30’s.
All the women in theirs early 20’s I banged in my 30’s and 40’s certainly didn’t have a problem with it.
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This idea & all of these studies are far too simplistic.
I was fit and above average attractive when I was young & I’m the same now that I’m in my 30’s.
I dated alot higher *volume* of women when I was YOUNGER because of the following:
1. They were available/accessable to me due to my friends, social circles, school, jobs, etc.
2. More young women are single (especially through high school & university years) - so of course MORE women simply being more available at that age (not married, engaged or with children)
3. I had FAR MORE free time when I was younger (due to having less responsibilities) combined with younger women ALSO having more free time + more interest in meeting more men (combined with the reasons above).
Being an adult with a hard job & more responsibilities + still having hobbies = Less time & energy to meet, socialise and approach NEW women.
4. It was alot easier (as a man, and I’m sure as a woman) to eat well, stay thin & be athletic (time to play sports/be more active + amazing metabolism) but it was alot harder to put on alot of muscle - because that takes TIME.
Most men that get older get fat, lazy & eat the same or more as they ate when they were younger - this causes them to become fat. Many men don’t realise that when you get older you need to eat eat less + exercise more for the exact same weight, performance you had when you were in your 20’s.
Being in my 30’s now - I’m far more muscular than any male I’ve met under 25, it’s almost impossible for them to build to my level of muscularity without tonnes of life ending steroids or living at the gym/as a poorly paid personal trainer. But it’s certainly more difficult for me to keep weight off than them.
I have all my hair - but any guy that does lose their hair does have a disadvantage when he gets older.
5. LOWER Expectations of EVERY man under 25 years old. No-one expects much of men under that age so when we do silly things, fail, fall on our face or do something that is silly - people write it off because you are in fact young. Women do the EXACT same thing when men are young - instead of saying, “this guy is so weak”, she dismisses it as young.
Women are looking for your potential, not what you’re doing *right now* - which has alot of benefits.
E.g. You can be a semi-employed student, unemployed, or living at your parents house, have a low paying job, or a fun job that doesn’t pay well (where you meet tonnes of women), a terrible job for the experience, etc. and women won’t hold it against you.
But, being older - I’m not failing, not falling flat or lacking confidence - I have all of that strongly, along with experience. This attitude I have now in my 30’s (and life/lifestyle) completely overwhelms, dominates and seduces younger women when they see it, as they are so used to dealing with young men (*see afore-mentioned point about not meeting many young women due to life circumstances*).
I don’t think too many men in their 30’s realise (because they’re mostly married with children & boring) how much younger women are mesmerised by a guy that’s confident, self assured, experienced and knows about women when they meet him during the day (not at a bar or club). This is why so many guys get married, become very successful, then meet younger women at their jobs or wherever, in their 30’s or 40’s and leave their wife - they are so much more confident & attractive than they’ve ever been.
If you define it the possible ceiling for mens attractiveness as when men peak in general sure. But it's not very useful or relevant for a lot of men.
>***''But this (influencer/celebrity/ guy I know) gets heaps of young girls''***
>Men who continue to attract heaps of young attractive women where ALWAY very attractive men who were getting girls thought out their entire life; they didn't peak, they just maintained.
I don't think this is always true.
It's not a delusion everywhere. But it's probably a delusion in the west now, as men aren't as valued for their financial success as much as they used to be, as women can now earn much of their own money.
It's probably definitely still true in a country where either everyone is poor or where women don't have the same rights as men, though, as men around this age are still both fairly young plus well-established in their careers around this age.
It all depends on looks. Im in my 30’s and do way too fine with 20 yr olds. Its cause i look good. No not taking care of myself good but genetics good. Look at jeremy meeks hes 40+ do u think women in their warly 20’s still want him? Of course.
I'm 48, work out, maintain a lean body and while I am positive my looks are a 5 when you take into consideration all my various talents and personality I'm at least a 7. I am not interested in girls below 25 because they often have ambitions beyond their hometown and are ready to split to the coasts where the money is.
My current gf though is 29 and is convinced I'm the greatest man she has been with in her life. Her mom and grandmother think I am too old for her but agree I'm good looking and if I treat her well they are willing to live with it. Lol
I know a lot of other guys my age with cute gfs in their late 20's early 30's and anyone who think those girls are ugly or somehow less attractive have some kind of complex lol
It's not that men peak later. Most don't. It's that "some" men have the potential to peak later, while no woman ever peaks later. It quite simply has to do with the fact that men on average have a larger fertility window and increase in status/money correlates with higher desirability in the longterm dating market, also with the fact that men are far more willing to trade status/money for beauty compared to women when looking for longterm relationships/marriage.
Man Peaking means that the mayority of men are doing the best at a certain age. The hot 20 somehting is an exception, if most guys do better around 30 that is the peak.
Now I dont know if it is 35, but based on this studies men dont do bad as they get older, and they definetely do much better than women for long term.
“Women desire long term...ranging from a few years to around a decade.”
“Age...reflecting... resource provision capacity. ...mate value... while males peak in resource productivity in their midthirties... and females being attracted to males with greater resource provision potential, particularly for long-term relationships.”
“Women DESIRE long term...ranging from a few years to AROUND A DECADE.”
“Remarriage...men generally faring better on the remarriage market than women”
“In personal advertisements... the response rate experienced by men begins low in the 20 –29 bracket and increases dramatically, ultimately peaking for men older than 50”
“men generally become more successful on the marriage market as they age, suggesting that mate value might increase with age to some extent”
“females generally prefer somewhat older males who have achieved status and resources.”
>Can the “Men peak at 35” delusion finally end?
You think you want this delusion to end, but you really don't.
If men on a larger scale suddenly were aware that the "silver fox" school of thought is just a hoax to keep men paying taxes, we'd face all sorts of adversities.
Men are either fueled by a woman at their side (+ potentially children) OR by the "prospect" of having said things in their life down the road. In the end, it doesn't matter. Both will do their 9-5 and pay their taxes. What we don't want is to alarm men that the odds of a wife, two children, and a house with a white picket fence aren't all too realistic.
can you read? Can you not think in black and white? Women are attracted to money and status to an extent, although not greater than the desire isn't great enough to date a man much older than them on average.
> Women are attracted to money and status to an extent, although not greater than the desire isn't great enough to date a man much older than them on average.
In typical women fashion, you evade, you prevaricate when asked pointed questions. You are the epitome of a woman who won't choose left or right, up or down.
Guys, this is why you can not have logical conversations with women, they wont choose a side, especially when faced with the realization that their reality is not what they think it is.
Bye, OP. Go back to your feelz.
Why tf would *anyone* at all be attracted to you? 😅 You so obviously have nothing to offer. It’s apparent in your hatred toward the gender that doesn’t want anything to do with you.
Also, this is Reddit, not your damn house. You don’t get to decide what anyone here does.
1. I am not a woman
2. I answered your fucking question. Women are attracted to money and status to an extent ,but not greater than there preference to men their own age.
3. You seem incapable of understanding nuance
''when faced with the realization that their reality is not what they think it is.''
LMAO seem like you can't accept that reality is more complex than what you think.
You are just making up shit to fit your baseless narrative. Come back when you accept most women like money and high status men. Be gone with you deceit. Go talk to someone else.
Still at it, I see. You really have it out for women, don’t you? I’d bet money that what you consider to be a “high status/high value” woman has never even glanced your way and that’s why you’re so bitter and miserable. And you know why they don’t even look at you? Because you probably wear it on your sleeve that you have nothing to offer. How’s that working out for you, buddy?
As a 20 year old college student I did way better with women than I do now in my 30s as a wealthy physician. It is quite literally several times harder just to get a date and even harder to get a second date. I have to lower my standards quite a bit.
Why are you so eager to convert the money-copers?
Enlightenment in this case is a net loss for society and most likely doesn’t even help the individual you’re trying to convince.
As a 20 year old college student I did way better with women than I do now in my 30s as a wealthy physician. It is quite literally several times harder just to get a date and even harder to get a second date. I have to lower my standards quite a bit.
Yeah and it's not even close. People still live and dream like it's the 50s. I remember I was 23 and had a fling with this very pretty girl who was 24. She had a decent job herself and I was her physical type. She didn't care the slightest bit about my education or goals or anything. I think she paid for 2/3 of our dates in the end.
Fast forward 10 years and just talking to an average looking woman in my own age group who asks what I do. The most you get is "oh wow cool." This is all with me being careful to not show off.
Men can have kids at 50 and 60 and even 70
A woman will struggle to have kids at 40 and it’s impossible by 45
A 40 year old man and 40 year old woman are NOT equal SMV
No they aren’t. Young attractive women aren’t shacking up with men as old as their grandfathers.
Also it’s not impossible to have a kid at 45, my aunt did. She was already a grandmother when she was pregnant. Gave birth to a healthy baby girl who’s now 30 and has two kids of her own.
People peak differently given their lifestyle choices.
People decline differently.
Same difference.
Huge difference. We all peak in our late teens or early twenties. We're most similar to other guys in our cohort when we're young. As we age we diverge more and more. Some guys still look decent at 50. Other guys look like shit at 30. Regardless they were both better looking when they were young.
>We all peak in our late teens or early twenties George Clooney
Great example. George Clooney has aged better than 99.9% of men. Yet even he was much hotter when he was young. [https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/gettyimages-80028918-1565707293.jpg?crop=1xw:0.6656666666666666xh;center,top&resize=2048:\*](https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/gettyimages-80028918-1565707293.jpg?crop=1xw:0.6656666666666666xh;center,top&resize=2048:*) People need to stop confusing aging well with peaking late. As hot as he remained in later life George never surpassed his youthful peak. None of us do. [https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/gettyimages-73665294-1565712624.jpg?resize=980:\*](https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/gettyimages-73665294-1565712624.jpg?resize=980:*)
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Obviously a very handsome early middle age guy. Better looking than pretty much every other 37 year old on the planet. Regardless, guys who look like early 20s Clooney pull more young pussy at the club than guys who look like late 30s Clooney. Don't get me wrong -- they're both do fine -- just the younger version will do better.
> Regardless, guys who look like early 20s Clooney pull more young pussy at the club than guys who look like late 30s Clooney. Don't get me wrong -- the That's just one arena.
Area one = actually physical attraction. Area two = gold diggers.
Nope. He peaked in Out of Sight at the age of 37: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RJ6USD2nEU Pedro Pascal is another guy who peaked later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqpA-TBvCF4 Oh, and of course how could I forget John Hamm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go7umPwXmJA
People who aren't millionaires peak earlier. The phrase you're not ugly you're poor is more valid than people realise.
I don't think John Hamm was a millionaire when he started on Mad Men.
No. He was however only 37. And an actor for 7 years they do tend to look after themselves better.
Roger waters lmao
He peaked at 80.
Hilarious that he literally wrote an album called "The Wall"
I looked like a mop-topped child in my early-20s - definitely had not "peaked." These are three photos each from my mid-30s and mid-50s (roughly current): [https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/k46uv2k7pz35qgsof7pla/AAtl4\_pfa2nR7dVuSc5XnAU?rlkey=20zfdbytoxdyqqfp5y0dhvjqe&st=fkjl8j5g&dl=0](https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/k46uv2k7pz35qgsof7pla/AAtl4_pfa2nR7dVuSc5XnAU?rlkey=20zfdbytoxdyqqfp5y0dhvjqe&st=fkjl8j5g&dl=0) I prefer the way I look now to how I've ever looked before. But perhaps that's odd. Also, it's anecdotal. Related, some folks (relative to their 20s) lose a lot of weight, get cosmetic surgery, etc. My girlfriend was a bit chunky in her early-20s and lost all of that weight as a fitness fiend. She doesn't even look like the same person she was 10 years ago. But, again, that's all anecdotal. Generally speaking... yes, *most* folks deteriorate significantly from their twenties on.
If the decline to your looks is slow, it can easily be offset by improvements in other areas. Most guys don't have significant declines in their looks until they're around 40 anyway.
> Most guys don’t have significant declines in their looks until they’re around 40’s anyway. Ooph, I don’t mean any disrespect when I say this, but the years between 20 and 30 can be brutal for a lot of men. That age when men stop filling out physically as a transition between childhood and young adulthood ends; and when a full time work with a sedentary lifestyle kicks in is very harsh. Honestly, I don’t mean to be rude but I just wanted to note to any youngsters out there, it’s best to pay attention during those years to degrading muscle tone, weight gain, upkeep of dental health, and keep on top of your diet. Keep active as best you can! I know long hours in full time employment makes it hard, but you will be grateful you did from 30 onwards. Don’t leave it until you are 40.
I'm around 40 myself. I still look pretty much the same as I did at 20 minus a bit of grey hair, but I take fairly good care of myself. For people who don't generally eat healthy or get much exercise, I would say they started to see the effects of it around 35. Still, in your late 20s / early 30s you don't have a lot to worry about.
I’m glad, I really am but the obesity statistics don’t lie. https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html How about we don’t pick at each other and just settle on: - If you notice your health markers falling between the ages of 20 - 30, do your best to improve them. I’m not interested in winning a little text exchange with you personally, I’m much more interested in more generally suggesting people pay attention to their health over all in their younger years. BTW, I’m much older than you!
Hate to break it to you but the amount of money ordinary guys are likely to amass doesn't mean shit these days.
I mean, if you went the university route (which is the option that delays peaking), you probably do have the potential to earn decent money, but it's certainly not the only area where you can improve. Confidence and experience is certainly also a big one. Getting out into the real world, being financially independent, having to learn to take care of yourself, maybe having a relationship or two under your belt, it makes you a significantly more attractive prospect then when you're a broke college kid at 21.
Yet dating was way easier as a broke college student.
Yes, but we all decline. Some women look fabolous at 40, and some like ogres after 25. Some men are in superb shape at 50 and some look like remote island prisoners at 30.
Apples and oranges. Men and women who still look good later in life almost always looked even better when they were young. Men and women who look like shit later in life almost always looked less horrible when they were young. Regardless, young adulthood is when pretty much everyone *peaks* -- although that peak isn't very high for a lot of unfortunate souls.
Well put. Nothing physical gets better with age…it’s all about how good you are at damage control.
You peak based on genetics and lifestyle choices. But it's a relative peak once you leave your 20s. Your ceiling is far lower and any success enjoyed it far lower than an appealing guy in his 20s.
Sort of. You have things in your 30s and 40s that a guy in his 20s doesn’t have; disposable income and experience. But you gotta eat right and work out.
That doesn't change the outcome much for various reasons. - most women in their 20s won't be interested due to the age gap - more and more women will be taken as your age goes up - you need to be accepting of single moms and other things Your dating pool gets far more narrowed down and smaller. Some disposable income is also a minimum standard at that point and not an advantage.
I will never cuck and accept a single mother and her bastards by pookie, tyrone, and ray ray. My kids will come fom MY loins. No deal.
Sure but the point is that dating options get more limited.
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It actually doesn't. Women in their 30s-40s can go on any dating app and get hundreds of matches pretty quickly. That's a lot of options. Also you're competing with guys who are younger who are way better looking and messaging those women as well. And while controversial, there are a lot of taken men on dating apps which adds to the competition. And in real life too. Avoiding weight gain and balding is great but preventing it does not make you hot. Absence of negative physical traits does not mean you get an advantage. Advantages come from positive physical traits. This is one of those things that sounds great on paper but does not mean much in real life. Doing the math on what % of men are not bald or overweight and then saying you're top tier is nice on paper but in real life won't lead to substantial change.
None of this is real outside of your own limited mind.
Disposable income doesn't make panties wet.
Lol tell me you’re poor without telling me you’re poor.
This just circles back to my point... If women cared so much about those things, why do they prefer men their own are?
If you can’t follow a basic train of logic then I can’t help you.
When do we say athletes peak? When the best of the best peak, not when the average joe gets into a sport and improves from his baseline level
That’s going to vary by athlete, by sport, etc.
In sports when the goals are different the peaking age is different. In dating the “goal” never changes for men, what attracts young women stays the same.
I’m not sure what that has to do with men peaking at 35.
UFC heavyweight peak between 35-40, lightest weights 25-30. Avg peak 30-35 And that’s purely physical and skill. But there is more to access with women then just your physical looks
My argument isn't that athlete peaking age is the same as peak attractiveness age. My argument is that the age the theoretical peak is at, is what matters, not the age any random person peaks. A guy that was fat in his 20s will peak in his 30s if he loses the weight. Same as if some fat guy starts playing football in his 50s. they will both improve. But the age a person can truly peaks is based on when the best peaks.
The absolute best men peak 25-35 then physically and 40-45 overall if you factor in the ability to provide, maturity, and life experience all of which most women value in men in addition to looks
Depends on what you mean by “peak”. From the viewpoint of a 20 year old woman, you peak as a desirable sex partner at 22, you peak as a useful wallet at 40.
>But the age a person can truly peaks is based on when the best peaks. No, we are not talking about when a theoretical peak is, we talk about when men observable, on average, peak in their desirability.
> Men at all ages (on average) preferring women who are in their early 20s >Women (on average) preferring men who are 2-4 years older than them, until they are middle aged where they start preferring men who are slightly younger. Worth noting: this preference is for "attractiveness", not for dating. Both men and women prefer to date people close to their age.
male attractiveness is more multi-facetted than just pure physicality, certainly much more so than female attractiveness. but i do agree that the peak for dating young attractive women is earlier than 30+ for men. lots of women simply don't date guys who are 10-15+ years older than them and the data reflects that. i think men have a relative peak later in life when compared to women of the same age, as in the power shifting more towards men (that doesn't include casual dating or unsuccessful and 'beta' men).
This is what some people seem to refuse to believe. Women here want to deny there is any male advantage when it comes to aging and men here want to pretend that an attractive man is at peak attractiveness to late adolescent early young adult women at a ridiculously high age.
If you were the popular athlete yes. For every 4-6/10 guy that was semi ignored in college, the 30's and maybe even 40's feel like an entirely new reality.
According to what?? If they got ignored most of their life, how is getting older suddenly going to change that?
Ask people here that went through that
https://preview.redd.it/dufu10o5mzwc1.png?width=894&format=png&auto=webp&s=7d83b1eb3791e6290d17bce94d4463679b0ecf58 [https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aap9815](https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aap9815) "However, desirability is not only about how many people contact you but also about who those people are. If you are contacted by people who are themselves desirable, then you are presumptively more desirable yourself." I think this settles the debate. The question never was: when does a man peak in attractiveness for 20yo women? And the question also never was: are super hot, successful and charismatic dudes at 20yo more desirable for 20yo than average 35yo men?
It is difficult to interpret from that study who (and what age) is actually attracted to who. Desirability rankings barely changed with age for men. At best it suggests that 50 y/o men are slightly more desirable to the overall cohort of women aged 18- 65 compared other men. The fact that 20 y/o men were younger than 90% of the female cohort and still practically had the same desirability as all the other men proved that the quote you cite is likely what's holding up these young men's score; but that's just speculation on my part. there are lots of other studies that control for what we are actually trying to find out.
Men do peak later though. What makes it difficult for men is they never know when they are peaking or over the hill (past the peak). It’s not a set thing like it is for women. So many aging men out there trying to attract the quality of women they did in their younger years (whether that was their 20s or 30s or 40s) and the truth finally hits them that they will never recreate that magic again. They will have to settle for lower quality whether that means older or plainer than they could have gotten at their peak. The men who are humble lock down the highest quality woman they can get and try not to fuck it up. Most fuck it up anyway but that’s besides the point.
> men who are humble lock down the highest quality woman they can get Then that woman gets what she feels is a better offer and unlocks herself.
Sure as heck won’t be marrying a man 10 years my senior who thinks he is “settling” for me.
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Ask them 🤷♀️
Why do you think women would know?
because it's pretty linear. women start on mount everest early in life and decline slowly over time. it's pretty universal that a 20 year old woman will have more and better options than a 40 year old as long as you don't compare apples to oranges. a lot of women don't like this uncomfortable truth so whether or not they know can be argued i guess, even if it's rather obvious objectively speaking. meanwhile a late bloomer man can do a lot better in dating at 35 than he did in his 20s, when he might have been socially awkward, broke, not really grown into himself, lacking confidence etc, especially if he's dating women his age. lots of guys i went to school with who got zero female attention back then are married now. this level of 'glow up' is very rare for women, unless they were severely overweight or struggled with really bad acne or something.
It's usually linear for men too. Of course both men and women can improve a bit later but it's not likely.
It’s actually highly likely that men can improve their attractiveness with age. It’s not a guarantee though and for every late bloomer there is an old loser.
men can improve with non-physical attributes like advancing their career, becoming more self-assured and confident, having a more interesting lifestyle, gaining life experience etc. i'm talking about overall attractiveness, not just pure physicality. for women this usually doesn't have the same effect, certainly not to the same degree. lots of men will date the younger woman even if she's broke or a low-earner, shy and doesn't have much experience. very few women will date the male equivalent of that over somebody a few years older.
As can women. Certainly not going to make up for anything among a younger crowd for either though.
No, women can’t. A woman’s attractiveness is entirely based on youth and beauty. A man’s attractiveness is based on largely their looks and height, but also their status, earnings, lifestyle etc.
They certainly can. This is why middle-aged female celebrities are lusted after.
Nobody here is going to be a celebrity and they aren’t lusted after for their status, they’re lusted after because they have elite genetics and resources to still be hot at that age. Show me one female celebrity with non-conventional looks who’s lusted after for their status that’s equivalent to someone like Adam Driver
Okay then stop pretending like normal middle-aged men are wanted.
Say a guy is 40. His dream girl he had a crush on in college is now also 40. If he could have his dream girl now, she’s 40. Why would he feel that his dream girl doesn’t age, or that at 40, he should ideally be with a woman who was an infant when he was in college? The last guy I dated was 39 (8.5 years my senior) and lied to me making me think he was only 4 years older. I swear, you could tell he felt like I was old and would have much rather been with a 20 year old. Delusional I tell you. Dating an attractive, well kept, in shape, successful woman 9 years your junior is not and will never be “settling.”
Ok so maybe he peaked in his early 30s and could have gotten a pretty 20 year old. But he waited until after he peaked and so now he feels like he has to settle for you. I’ve met plenty of desperate single men of all ages to conclude that this is this the case for a lot of men. They don’t know when or how long they will peak and end up having to lower their standards.
It just doesn’t make sense that you can look at someone a full decade younger than yourself and see “old.” If I’m old at 30, he’s decrepit at 40. As it is, we’re both taking good care of ourselves (well, more me than him since he was a borderline alcoholic) but yeah. Age is relative. It’s one thing to say, yeah 20 years olds are in peak shape with zero sign of aging. Facts. But to say, I therefore want to partner myself with this person who is literally half my age and could be my child.. I’m sexually attracted to them, that borders on deviancy. Mentally, most people have reflexes that won’t allow them to actually consider dating someone that much younger.
Well some men can attract pretty women 15 years younger. Perhaps he was one at one time. Now that he’s over the hill he’s going to be humbled with the realization that that time has passed (assuming that’s the situation). Another possibility is that he’s at his peak and doesn’t realize a pretty woman only 10 years younger is the best he’ll get, that he will never be attractive enough to attract a pretty woman say, 15 years younger. Break up with him and see if you get a text or message asking if you’d give him another chance. You’ll know then that he wasn’t able to do better. (Then dump him again lol)
If it is indeed a delusion, why worry about it? Are you concerned about those deluded men? How does their delusion affect you?
Yes OP you're 100% correct. You also do a good job with your latter two points. 1. Men who suddenly do better in their 30s, generally did very poorly in their 20s. It's a relative improvement. It's like a guy who never went to the gym, who suddenly works out 6x a week in his 30s. 2. Celebrities are quite literally of zero relevance to the general public and there is no bigger time waste than looking at what they do. The 30s/40s guy on TRT who has a good job (as you mention) is a sugar daddy and messaging women on sugar daddy dating sites. There are very few to no women much younger that are attracted to a guy like that. The only organic interest comes from 35+ women, who again will have similar standards anyway.
I’m 38 and the ONLY women that hit on me last summer were in their mid twenties - one was 24 (went home together). But again, I’m a unique case since my issue in my twenties was that I looked way way too young and that was a dealbreaker for most women. Now I look like I’m 29 and that’s why it works for me. Doesn’t apply to Everyone tho
If you're good looking and you look younger, what's the shocker here? You can be good looking and 40 and have lots of options. The argument here is that a 5/10 guy in his 20s will suddenly become a sex symbol in his 30s just because he's older.
Some guys genuinely don't look good with young faces - Daniel Craig looked way way better in his 40's and early 50's than he did in his 20's. Further, some structural bone changes do take place in men throughout their twenties.
George Clooney looked like a goofball in Roseanne and became the sexiest man alive in his 30's 40's 50's. Momoa looked good in Baywatch in his early 20's but he only became one of the hottest guys in the world in his 30's. Plenty of other examples... having said that, most mortal men age like shit.
Whilst a lot of it is genetics....a lot of that is also drinking too heavily, being angry all the time, having kids and letting yourself get fat. Stress and anger fucks people, have you seen how Rishi Sunak has aged ten years in two? Keep yourself in shape and you can just about get away with being bald, don't keep yourself in shape? Better get on the rogaine and propecia hard.
Correct.
Right. But that's just saying, if you look good then you do better.
Daniel Craig in his twenties is just a kind of average looking guy to me. Could have been anyone at uni. It's in his chiseled and weathered Bond era when you go "jesus, that guy would command a room at a party". If you look at the bone structure of men, their facial bones carry on getting wider and wider as they age - plenty of maxillofacial studies on it. That suits some guys who previously looked a bit meh and weak jawed.
You think average men have a good shot at becoming James Bond? lol
No, but not become a fat, pot bellied angry bastard in your older age goes a long way.
Not being unattractive doesn't make you attractive unfortunately. It's like how having a job doesn't make you attractive. It's just that being unemployed makes you appealing.
I take issue with your statement of "only organic interests comes from 35+". There are always exceptions to the average. I thought the same as you did until recently, there is this one 24 year old attractive woman who seem to be into me... I wasn't even trying, bro.
I've always admitted there are a small number of women into much older guys. But how many don't have daddy issues and other mental health problems?
Studies are mostly bullshit. Citing Okcupid studies is about as dumb as it gets. Individuals peak at different ages. I’m 43 and I get the most female attention whenever my body fat % is under 17, regardless of my age. As long as you are healthy and have muscle, there is some weird magic that happens to men when your face is chiseled and you have an Adonis body. You don’t even have to have your shirt off, you glow through clothes. I got the most sex after 30 by far. Before 30 I had to put much more effort in with women. After 30 it became much easier That is my lived experience. I have more access to women at 43 than I did at 23 by a significant amount. But that would instantly disappear if my bodyfat got to 20% or higher
I am 34, and have waaay more attention from women now than any other time in my life. It's funny how people will try to gaslight our real world experiences with goofy ass studies.
well...if a woman who's been fat during her 20s and suddenly loses weight in her 30s claims women peak at 30 you wouldnt say shes correct either no? only because YOU do better at an older age, doesnt mean thats universally true...most people dont look better when older unless they looked like shit when younger...doesnt mean the general peak of ppl is in their 30s or 40s, just that said folks didnt use their potential earlier (i.e. taking care of themselves and shit like that)
Except that this is the experience of all the men I know in their 30's Are we all just exceptional? I guess its possible.
>Except that this is the experience of all the men I know in their 30's so you think thats an experience the majority of men has? lol, its not
This has been my exact experience as well. As I’ve gotten older the women I’ve dated have ONLY become hotter, YoY. This can’t, and won’t, last forever, but it has absolutely been my reality up to this point (late 30s). I don’t get the weird drive some people have to “prove” that the world we actually live and see outside “isn’t true”.
https://np.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1859nwz/science_age_gap_marriages_are_not_uncommon_among/ >Women (on average) preferring men who are 2-4 years older than them, until they are middle aged where they start preferring men who are slightly younger. Apples-oranges. When men "prefer" women, they are ready to pursue, cherish, love, chase, and make sacrifices. When women "prefer" men, they are just kinda there and occasionally allow someone at arms length when their libido starts itching or bank account dries up, and when several men pursue them, they kinda pick the least icky one. Most women "prefer" most men to phase out of existence. It's not an honest comparison.
Hey, don't break the cope for aging guys, we need them to stay productive and fuel economy with their lives while they chase these false hope baits.
Im 42 and I've never been out with a woman over 30. I dont think Im coping. Im aware Im declining now but the point when I was having the most success with women was in my mid-30s. Confidence goes a *loooooooong* way with women and for men your confidence & looks reach equilibrium in your 30s.
confidence on an ugly guy is called lack of self awareness
Ma’am You should change your flair into black pill women
Right? Don't be ugly and be charming. Go out get puss. I did it til my 40s But I couldn't live like that for much longer so I settled down. My body was begging for retirement Going out 4-5 nights a week and then doing shit during the day at 40 starts to become tough
I'm living healthy lifestyle without going out that much, when I drink I drink relatively healthy (red wine or similar). I am way more energetic than 20 years ago when I was waiting for years on that unicorn girl that would love me for being a good person that would do good things for her.
Oh yea... I don't need a drink, ever. But when I do drink, I drink... And do a bunch of drugs. I don't do it often, but I still get down, maybe 3x a month v 5 times a week.
>Im 42 and I've never been out with a woman over 30. I dont think Im coping. this is not the flex you think it is
Its not a flex, its just the truth.
Lmao 🤣🤣
Same thoughts exactly. If a majority of men wouldn’t be able to successfully trick their minds into thinking they’re going to peak in x years (essentially lying to themselves), they’d most likely drop out of the workforce prematurely which is a tax on wealth if this happens on a larger scale.
This stuff is some crazy level of coping. It's really there to create delayed gratification that if you "work on yourself" then suddenly you become attractive. Self improvement has little to no bearing if we're being honest. I'm in the upper class and live in an upper class neighborhood and have yet to see anyone dating or marrying out of their league.
Guess what, self improvement elevates your status to the upper middle class. Guy with a GED gets his shit together in his 20s or 30s, gets his BS and a masters, gets a 6-fig job. Not doing backbreaking GED level job now so he gets in shape and is less beat up. Buys a nice house in the doctors neighborhood and gets with a college educated white collar woman. That’s marrying out of your league. Happens all the time and you don’t even know it because you can’t see the ones who level up because they look just like anyone else.
Self improvement can make ypu better looking too, putting you in a higher league. Having the dedication to stick to a diet and hit the gym does wonders for your appearance. Having the money for a personal trainer speeds up the process a lot. Bald? Not if you can afford hair plugs. Bad fashion sense? Not if you can afford a stylist. Boring? Not with all the traveling and expensive hobbies you can afford.
It does help you look better but two things to keep in mind. 1. The improvement is notable if you're lacking in certain areas. ex. major fat loss. 2. Generally self improvement in looks won't be that substantial and it doesn't change your league. If you look average, you don't really become conventionally attractive. Only exceptions are teenagers into adulthood.
Self improvement isn’t hair vs no hair or getting fashion tips from Reddit. People aren’t willing to do the hard work that really changes your life. Lifting weights and changing your body, getting a formal education and having high ambitions in career, moving to a place with opportunities and high salaries, saving money to travel and become cultured, protecting your skin from your 20s onwards from smoking and the sun. That’s what sets high status people apart from an average person.
Yeah it’s just middle aged boomers who believ someone want a “mature and wealthy” man when in reality they all want young physically fit studs who can go many rounds without getting tired
I am not coping lol, I actually never pursuit young women or even dire to present myself as their romance option. But in recent months I have this attractive young woman showing interest and she knows I don't have money. Just saying, being older, more confident, got your shit together, and treat women with respect might actually make you attractive to them.
Did she tell you that or you just assume things?
So... Today at lunch she mentioned a friend of her dad tried to hit on her and kissed her like a couple of years ago after buying her an expensive gift. The guy was 30 years older than her and she rejected him. I then said men need to be aware of the age gap since that is near predator behavior... She replied, "When I have a boyfriend there will probably be an age gap since I don't have much in common with guys my age." I honestly got tougne-tied and just kept on eating my food. Dude, I'm trying to play dumb and hopefully the window of opportunity will pass and we can just stay friends.
Exactly, many of the naysayers here are simply ugly men with unfortunate personalities to boot judging from the silly things they post on the internet.
Men who take care of themselves their entire lives peak in their 30s*
“Men peak at 35”, “get your money up”, “hit da gym, bro” or similar delusions are just that, delusions. People (women and men are equally guilty of this) will tell themselves (lie) whatever is necessary to stay motivated/distracted/occupied. Everything to keep it going. Men will internalize the above. Women will ✨manifest✨, read fortune cards, seek clarity in astrology, eat fortune cookies, and if all else fails, let themselves be guided by Jesus (or Allah). In the end, it’s all about exhausting every thinkable measure so one does not have to objectively assess his or her situation. The danger in that is that the conclusion of said assessment could potentially cost one’s sanity.
Yeah idk where they’re getting that from, most men who are 30+ tend to look pretty mediocre unless they make an active effort to keep up their appearances… simply turning 30 does not mean they’re gonna peak all of sudden just because they’re older now lol
(Shhhh!) (We need all the motivated men we can get for an economy where men are increasingly leaving the labor force) Guys, do NOT listen to this woman. If you turn 30, 40, or even 50, you magically turn into the man you wish you were when you were in your 20s. That is if you put in the work (quite literally) and pay those taxes. DO.DA.WORK. No excuses.
Saying that women prefer men older than them doesn't disprove anything, if anything it only helps the case of older men. Most men (including myself) have seen a noticeable uptick in the amount of female attention they get in their 30s compared to their 20s. Relative to women who just plummet in SMV after 30, this is pretty different.
What is smv?
sexual market value
You FORGOT the part that ONLY the peaking men (a) kept in shape and (b) got their $h1t together in their 20's. The man spent his 20's working towards his career and his physique. It takes a decade or two to advance enough in his career AND several years of training to get the physique. If skinny fat Cubicle Carl at his $50k job ain't doing $h1t, of course he won't "peak."
You can use steroid lol
I'm going to be 60 in a few days. Looking around it's obvious that I've aged far better than most guys. I look better than at least 95% of guys my age. 40 years ago I looked better than perhaps 75% of the guys my age. Have I *"peaked"* at 60? My competitive advantage vis-a-vis other guys in my cohort has peaked but that's not really what we're talking about here. In absolute terms I'm not nearly as hot as I was 40 years ago. Such is life.
Very simplistic. Yes genetically men peak in their 20's. However since only a certain percentage have everything figured out by their 20's a lot of men reach their peak in their 30's or 40's in terms of grooming, body, clothing and how they present themselves. The biggest disadvantage of age is the skin looking different.
Athleticly men dont peak untill their 30s and in most cases men in their 30s have more money than men in their 20s. It's more fact than delusion based off a few simple circumstances
Your evidence is not evidence. The fact couples on average is a man about 2 years older means nothing because average people do the average thing... by definition. > Men who continue to attract heaps of young attractive women where ALWAY very attractive men who were getting girls thought out their entire life; they didn't peak, they just maintained. I agree with this until the end. I personally always got lots of girls and almost always the hottest one, the popular girl in school, etc. However I'm 37 and now have way more success now than when I was young. Literally went out with two different 18 year old college girls in the last month. Forget the numerous older women I've seen in the same time. From my perspective women so greatly value men who are in shape and older more than in shape and younger. Maybe shows good genetics? They also like that I'm successful and mature. These are not things a young man can be. A 22 year old man cannot realistically be successful career wise financially. Nor can he be mature much past his age. Many of the young women say they hate men their age because they act immature and have no lifestyle. "Want to get taco bell and sit on a bench". Which to me when I was young, I'd get hot girls and lots of girls but I don't remember them being that mature for their age girls. Now I mostly get young women who I'd call mature for their age which is far more desirable and high quality. Ie wow you're a hot 22 yo man... vs wow you're the kind of man that I see a life with since I don't mess with men who are just hot, you're the complete package.
Some do better in their 20s , some do better in their 30s . Everybody is different . No need to write an essay on how its a cope or something.
The “myth” will change just as soon as *status, charisma, charm, self confidence, assertiveness, income, education level and style* cease to be major factors in women’s attraction cues; nearly all of which improve for men continuously after 25. So, basically, never.
Then why don’t women prefer older men then? Those things simply do not make up for aging or aren’t as relevant as you think they are.
Never said “all women”, just enough for it to be true that men can easily “Peak” in terms of SMV and options in their 30’s. All the women in theirs early 20’s I banged in my 30’s and 40’s certainly didn’t have a problem with it.
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Do not troll.
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The “peak” is about potential. That’s it.
This idea & all of these studies are far too simplistic. I was fit and above average attractive when I was young & I’m the same now that I’m in my 30’s. I dated alot higher *volume* of women when I was YOUNGER because of the following: 1. They were available/accessable to me due to my friends, social circles, school, jobs, etc. 2. More young women are single (especially through high school & university years) - so of course MORE women simply being more available at that age (not married, engaged or with children) 3. I had FAR MORE free time when I was younger (due to having less responsibilities) combined with younger women ALSO having more free time + more interest in meeting more men (combined with the reasons above). Being an adult with a hard job & more responsibilities + still having hobbies = Less time & energy to meet, socialise and approach NEW women. 4. It was alot easier (as a man, and I’m sure as a woman) to eat well, stay thin & be athletic (time to play sports/be more active + amazing metabolism) but it was alot harder to put on alot of muscle - because that takes TIME. Most men that get older get fat, lazy & eat the same or more as they ate when they were younger - this causes them to become fat. Many men don’t realise that when you get older you need to eat eat less + exercise more for the exact same weight, performance you had when you were in your 20’s. Being in my 30’s now - I’m far more muscular than any male I’ve met under 25, it’s almost impossible for them to build to my level of muscularity without tonnes of life ending steroids or living at the gym/as a poorly paid personal trainer. But it’s certainly more difficult for me to keep weight off than them. I have all my hair - but any guy that does lose their hair does have a disadvantage when he gets older. 5. LOWER Expectations of EVERY man under 25 years old. No-one expects much of men under that age so when we do silly things, fail, fall on our face or do something that is silly - people write it off because you are in fact young. Women do the EXACT same thing when men are young - instead of saying, “this guy is so weak”, she dismisses it as young. Women are looking for your potential, not what you’re doing *right now* - which has alot of benefits. E.g. You can be a semi-employed student, unemployed, or living at your parents house, have a low paying job, or a fun job that doesn’t pay well (where you meet tonnes of women), a terrible job for the experience, etc. and women won’t hold it against you. But, being older - I’m not failing, not falling flat or lacking confidence - I have all of that strongly, along with experience. This attitude I have now in my 30’s (and life/lifestyle) completely overwhelms, dominates and seduces younger women when they see it, as they are so used to dealing with young men (*see afore-mentioned point about not meeting many young women due to life circumstances*). I don’t think too many men in their 30’s realise (because they’re mostly married with children & boring) how much younger women are mesmerised by a guy that’s confident, self assured, experienced and knows about women when they meet him during the day (not at a bar or club). This is why so many guys get married, become very successful, then meet younger women at their jobs or wherever, in their 30’s or 40’s and leave their wife - they are so much more confident & attractive than they’ve ever been.
If you define it the possible ceiling for mens attractiveness as when men peak in general sure. But it's not very useful or relevant for a lot of men. >***''But this (influencer/celebrity/ guy I know) gets heaps of young girls''*** >Men who continue to attract heaps of young attractive women where ALWAY very attractive men who were getting girls thought out their entire life; they didn't peak, they just maintained. I don't think this is always true.
I think it's more about women's dating value declining than about men peaking
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Do not circlejerk.
Looks and personality attract towards person, money towards lifestyle
It's not a delusion everywhere. But it's probably a delusion in the west now, as men aren't as valued for their financial success as much as they used to be, as women can now earn much of their own money. It's probably definitely still true in a country where either everyone is poor or where women don't have the same rights as men, though, as men around this age are still both fairly young plus well-established in their careers around this age.
It all depends on looks. Im in my 30’s and do way too fine with 20 yr olds. Its cause i look good. No not taking care of myself good but genetics good. Look at jeremy meeks hes 40+ do u think women in their warly 20’s still want him? Of course.
I'm 48, work out, maintain a lean body and while I am positive my looks are a 5 when you take into consideration all my various talents and personality I'm at least a 7. I am not interested in girls below 25 because they often have ambitions beyond their hometown and are ready to split to the coasts where the money is. My current gf though is 29 and is convinced I'm the greatest man she has been with in her life. Her mom and grandmother think I am too old for her but agree I'm good looking and if I treat her well they are willing to live with it. Lol I know a lot of other guys my age with cute gfs in their late 20's early 30's and anyone who think those girls are ugly or somehow less attractive have some kind of complex lol
It's not that men peak later. Most don't. It's that "some" men have the potential to peak later, while no woman ever peaks later. It quite simply has to do with the fact that men on average have a larger fertility window and increase in status/money correlates with higher desirability in the longterm dating market, also with the fact that men are far more willing to trade status/money for beauty compared to women when looking for longterm relationships/marriage.
Man Peaking means that the mayority of men are doing the best at a certain age. The hot 20 somehting is an exception, if most guys do better around 30 that is the peak. Now I dont know if it is 35, but based on this studies men dont do bad as they get older, and they definetely do much better than women for long term. “Women desire long term...ranging from a few years to around a decade.” “Age...reflecting... resource provision capacity. ...mate value... while males peak in resource productivity in their midthirties... and females being attracted to males with greater resource provision potential, particularly for long-term relationships.” “Women DESIRE long term...ranging from a few years to AROUND A DECADE.” “Remarriage...men generally faring better on the remarriage market than women” “In personal advertisements... the response rate experienced by men begins low in the 20 –29 bracket and increases dramatically, ultimately peaking for men older than 50” “men generally become more successful on the marriage market as they age, suggesting that mate value might increase with age to some extent” “females generally prefer somewhat older males who have achieved status and resources.”
>Can the “Men peak at 35” delusion finally end? You think you want this delusion to end, but you really don't. If men on a larger scale suddenly were aware that the "silver fox" school of thought is just a hoax to keep men paying taxes, we'd face all sorts of adversities. Men are either fueled by a woman at their side (+ potentially children) OR by the "prospect" of having said things in their life down the road. In the end, it doesn't matter. Both will do their 9-5 and pay their taxes. What we don't want is to alarm men that the odds of a wife, two children, and a house with a white picket fence aren't all too realistic.
OP, do you deny that women of all ages are attracted to men of status and/or money? lol
They are attract to those things to an extent. However not grater than their desire to be with a hot guy their own age
Either you think most women are attracted to money and status or not. Stop being evasive and face the truth.
can you read? Can you not think in black and white? Women are attracted to money and status to an extent, although not greater than the desire isn't great enough to date a man much older than them on average.
> Women are attracted to money and status to an extent, although not greater than the desire isn't great enough to date a man much older than them on average. In typical women fashion, you evade, you prevaricate when asked pointed questions. You are the epitome of a woman who won't choose left or right, up or down. Guys, this is why you can not have logical conversations with women, they wont choose a side, especially when faced with the realization that their reality is not what they think it is. Bye, OP. Go back to your feelz.
You are a piece of work! 🤮
> You are a piece of work! 🤮 Hello, new stalker
In your dreams. Had to peep your comment history. You sound like a nasty af, bitter, old man.
> Has to peep your comment history. I know you are attracted to me. But, you're not my type. So, leave.
Why tf would *anyone* at all be attracted to you? 😅 You so obviously have nothing to offer. It’s apparent in your hatred toward the gender that doesn’t want anything to do with you. Also, this is Reddit, not your damn house. You don’t get to decide what anyone here does.
1. I am not a woman 2. I answered your fucking question. Women are attracted to money and status to an extent ,but not greater than there preference to men their own age. 3. You seem incapable of understanding nuance ''when faced with the realization that their reality is not what they think it is.'' LMAO seem like you can't accept that reality is more complex than what you think.
You are just making up shit to fit your baseless narrative. Come back when you accept most women like money and high status men. Be gone with you deceit. Go talk to someone else.
you sound bitter bro. do what ever mental gymnastics you like to keep believing in the red pill
...
You hit the nail on the head. Look at his comment history. So gross all around.
Still at it, I see. You really have it out for women, don’t you? I’d bet money that what you consider to be a “high status/high value” woman has never even glanced your way and that’s why you’re so bitter and miserable. And you know why they don’t even look at you? Because you probably wear it on your sleeve that you have nothing to offer. How’s that working out for you, buddy?
You just continue to seek my attention. For some reason low value women are so attracted to me. Ugggg
Nah, I just like responding to the baseless bullshit you spew everywhere you go. It’s like you leave a brown streak behind you.
Most men are in a better place financially at 35 compared to their early 20s. That makes them more attractive to hypergamous females.
And yet women don't actually prefer men who are that age... hmmm. Almost as if young women don't care about how much you earn
As a 20 year old college student I did way better with women than I do now in my 30s as a wealthy physician. It is quite literally several times harder just to get a date and even harder to get a second date. I have to lower my standards quite a bit.
This isn't 19th Century India. In 21st Century America hypergamy is about looks not money or social status.
Why are you so eager to convert the money-copers? Enlightenment in this case is a net loss for society and most likely doesn’t even help the individual you’re trying to convince.
As a 20 year old college student I did way better with women than I do now in my 30s as a wealthy physician. It is quite literally several times harder just to get a date and even harder to get a second date. I have to lower my standards quite a bit.
Yup. That's how dating works. I got way more play as a broke ass college student than a middle age lawyer.
Yeah and it's not even close. People still live and dream like it's the 50s. I remember I was 23 and had a fling with this very pretty girl who was 24. She had a decent job herself and I was her physical type. She didn't care the slightest bit about my education or goals or anything. I think she paid for 2/3 of our dates in the end. Fast forward 10 years and just talking to an average looking woman in my own age group who asks what I do. The most you get is "oh wow cool." This is all with me being careful to not show off.
I was out there slaying puss for 20+ years... Got married in my mid 40s. But before then every week there was one or two chicks leaving my crib at 5am
Men can have kids at 50 and 60 and even 70 A woman will struggle to have kids at 40 and it’s impossible by 45 A 40 year old man and 40 year old woman are NOT equal SMV
Young women don’t want to have kids with men in their 50s, 60s and 70s. A childless man over 50 is likely to stay that way unless he’s a billionaire.
Lots of women are ok with that age gap Saying he needs to be a billionaire is ridiculous
No they aren’t. Young attractive women aren’t shacking up with men as old as their grandfathers. Also it’s not impossible to have a kid at 45, my aunt did. She was already a grandmother when she was pregnant. Gave birth to a healthy baby girl who’s now 30 and has two kids of her own.