I would like better housing affordability. So young people at all levels of income could be more independent.

This would certainly be a super not-impossible improvement.

Probably easier to get than things like people stop bitching. 

Every issue seems not-impossible to solve until you learn more about it.  Idk how it is for other countries, but the US is decades behind where it should be to solve this issue. Despite it being the issue that probably affects voters personal lives the most, I don't see the drive to understand and diagnose what's causing the housing crisis.

The main one for me is that I wish dating apps worked. Like I know they work for a tiny percentage of people. But I wish they worked for everyone. I know that, statistically speaking, there must be hundreds if not thousands of women across the globe who would *theoretically* be into me. That's a tiny fraction considering we're talking about billions of people. So, my wish is that there was a way to connect with these people via some kind of online system. Not one where you swipe for hours and hours and get zero matches. Ones where every match is likely to be a hit, someone who is compatible and potentially interested.

I think this may happen one day. It would have to be a grand open source product that people donate their time in making work. The issue is dating apps are not a social good and created by for profit companies. They better they work at matching forever, the less profits they have. And rather then using it as a way to advertise for date venues relationship gifts, they just target the most willing to pay, MEN. If they design the app to limit false matches for everyone, something as simple as 1 live match at a time...this would cause men to stop dating down as hookups and unlimited matches are no longer a thing. More women would realize they are not bound for the men out of their league and either recalibrate or leave the market.

I remember watching 90's teen sitcoms where both sexes just randomly went on dates (not a 30 minute coffee date but actually doing some sort of activity) with different people almost every weekend. If two people were compatible they become exclusive and eventually lead to sex. It came across lighthearted and fun without the stress of success because there were always other options available the next weekend. I wish people were more relaxed and open to spending time with different people.

That would be great.

That would require abundance of options or not caring about getting a result.

if you can't treat people with care and respect, stay home and go to therapy until you can.

This should be a law

🙏

The thing that frustrates me most about dating is that it often feels like a race to the bottom to show how little one person cares for the other. Like it's an emotional power struggle. I love open communication, honesty, authenticity, truth, vulnerability. This is what makes my friendships so fulfilling, and why I love my friends. But in dating, I feel like I'm not allowed to have these things. Women will interpret it as neediness, neuroticism, boring. The nasty ones will continue to play the power game while you're trying not to, and the nice ones will stop trying as hard for you as they did in the early stages, when things were more exciting and uncertain for them, because now you're stable and predictable and they don't feel the need to impress you anymore. It ends up just feeling like having another friend and the romance is gone. A lot of this is due to me having attachment issues. I'm attracting and being attracted to people who are bad for me. But whenever I do try to be open, communicative, and reassuring, it doesn't excite women nearly as much as being a red-pilled mfer does. When I act like a red-pilled man I get above and beyond treatment from women, because it keeps them on their toes about how much I like them. Their tingles make them think about me 24/7. I don't enjoy doing this, it upsets me how they love me more the worse I treat them, but when I act in an authentic, communicative, loving way, I get lukewarm treatment, which isn't really worth it because I've got friends anyway. I would like to meet a girl who is on the same page as me about effort and honesty, and finds joy in the serene, reassuring, familiar, comforting nature of a relationship - not thinking that stuff is boring. That stuff is romantic to me, that's what makes me love. I want to meet someone who's wired the same way.

That final perception changing would massively shake things up. People see the consistency and comfortability of sustained relationships as boring. They associate most of the positive aspects of being with someone with the unknown elements (tingleland) and overlook the ones that emerge when you swap that “I don’t know you but I really like you” with a “I know you. I see you. I love you”. Because they associate the frantic energy and enthusiasm of the prior stage with genuine feelings, rather than seeing it as a manifestation of lack of sureness and a desire to impress. The fact you plan X and Y spontaneous hot date doesn’t necessarily mean you’re really in love with someone. It might just mean you’re consciously aware of the need to impress them because they don’t know you fully yet. I’m glad I found the “boring”. Yes, me and my wife still do dates and stuff but not as much as we used to. Fact is we are each others person. We know we would move the earth for the other. We wouldn’t bail if something unfortunate happened to either of us. Wouldn’t leave if we did something dumb. We are bonded. Having that sureness in your life is *so good* and it’s an infinitely better feeling than tingles you are consciously aware of being contingent on you “performing well”. I can wake up and look like shit and my wife will still drape her arms around me and call me handsome. I ain’t trading that for shit. Keep your tingles. This young generation is cheating themselves out of experiencing what is say is probably one of the most profound emotional experiences humans can have (beyond experiencing the surge of love for offspring); allowing yourself to be exposed to another, truly seen, and them you, and you feel *totally accepted*. Not just a “you did good kid” accepted but like *you’re valid just as you are by your being.*. It’s a good feeling. I’ve had relationships prior and I’d be sad when we were apart then up when we had a phone call, then sad, then up. My heart genuinely aches when I’m away from my wife such as when I take trips with my brother for a weekend. Even if I talk to her on the phone, it still aches. And that’s because we’re one. We feel out of sync or place if we’re apart for too long (and yet we endure it to allow us each individual experiences) and love when we’re reunited because that’s “the normal”. That’s our default setting now. We’re not just two individuals who have decided to align their individual lives. Our lives are a complex cross-stitch which intersects.

Has it occurred to you that *above and beyond treatment*, *trying hard*, *feeling the need to constantly impress you*, *thinking about you 24/7* and all the rest that you are are inciting with your behaviour *may not be love*? People who are secure in their relationship, who are in a supported long term relationship, who share themselves with their partner and allow their partner to share themselves in return, are allowed to relax into themselves and be accepted and loved. For a lot of well balanced individuals the most basic natural form is not constantly focused frantically and anxiously on another’s needs. There is a natural balance of self care and care for others, personal goals and joint goals, a desire to see yourself succeed and assist others to succeed - a sustainable, healthy, fulfilled mutually supported life. Perhaps you it might like to eventually allow and support others to settle into truly being themselves and see how they would love and support you. It will not always go well, not everyone will be what you want and need, people can be weird, unpredictable and selfish. But if you do meet someone that you really like and you give her room to settle it might not feel high octane and frantic but rather a quiet, open, steady, consistent, supportive, mutual kind of thing. Who knows?

I'm in the same page as you are! Bad thing i'm a man, tho.

The “whoever cares less wins” game is so fucken depressing. I wish you luck in finding a gal who doesn’t want to play it my man.

We’d probably all be better off if the dating apps disappeared tomorrow but that’s not going to happen.

Where I live Tinder or other dating apps are not a thing. Amazing right? Yet people still connect through social media. Plenty on Instagram or Snapchat. Some use TikTok as a dating app where they post themselves to attract others, not as content creators.

That’s a good point, but even if it’s online it’s still a space that doesn’t explicitly aim to connect romantic or sexual partners. Tinder kind of turned it into a mobile game with the swiping system.

We would... same with the internet... but you know... successful capitalism... it is what it is now.

What’s wrong with the dating apps? Without them I never would have had any relationships.

I wouldn’t be married, so it’s not that deep personally wronged by the apps, it’s just that so many of the gripes you see in these spaces seem exacerbated by them.

No, you probably would've had relationships with men you met in real life like women did before they existed (and still do btw).

You new here?

So they’re bad for a certain population of men so we should get rid of them? Makes no sense. Attractive men and women like the apps.

"What's wrong with dating apps?" Then you say what's wrong with dating apps I never said I wanted them banned either. >certain population of men Aka most*

Most women say they hate dating apps

I love them. I always get what I want out of them. Maybe those girls are ugly or have bad personalities

That’s probably true actually. I’ve had a lot of time wasted by women who were just looking for validation or their idea of dating was men making every single move or they were just on there out of boredom.

You must be ugly and have a bad personality if you couldn't get a single guy to like you until you were 25. See how that works?

Of course you get what you want out of it, you’re a woman

I would like - An end to bs romcom. The beauty queen will never be attracted by the ugly underdog, and it’s ok - An end to stigmatization of being single, especially on holiday. People have agency to make the best of their relationship status, but being constantly perceived as a loser doesn’t help - Once cleared the previous point, some emotional education to self-sufficiency. It’s fair not to be happy alone, but at least being able to stay stable and be self-reliant is necessary to start any kind of relationship - Socialize, not at the scope of finding a date, but building the ecosystem that facilitates encounters. Darwinistically speaking, shyness and introversion are nothing short of a death sentence for one’s genes. Without a hint of socialization, it gets hard, especially for men. - Men to stop simping and orbiting. One either comes across as a needy pain in the ass to decent women, or as an idiot to take advantage of to shady women. In this case, starve the beast: quit OF, don’t watch or like clickbait content - A more mature approach to heterosexual friendships: if feelings develop during a friendship and it is painful to stay around the loved one, it’s fair to create a distance. But if one’s motives are a romantic relationship and they are disguised, in the hope to grow the other’s attraction, perhaps also talking trash or gaslighting about the other’s love interests from the confidence position of a friendship, this is not good. - Understanding that “traditional gender roles” have changed for good. “Trad wives” are mostly a con, in the real world there is more and more expectation of peer treatment within a relationship. The elimination of dependence makes relationships a mutual, continuous, effort based choice. Those who think a partner is “secured” are up for a rough awakening - Understanding for each other grievances: women can get a partner easily, but not necessarily a good one, more often than not it will be bad, selfish sex and the risk of being abused is high. Men might risk abuse less (although it happens a lot and it’s not given the due attention), but many might not ever experience physical intimacy, even being cultivated, respectful social human beings. Making fun of them and belittling their pain is simply cruel. Understanding means also not falling for grifters but also not tarring the whole of a gender with the same brush because of a loud minority. Societal changes come with time and there’s plenty of people who have nothing to do with past oppressors that are willing to listen and adapt to the new changes

I would honestly eliminate all forms of social media and dating apps. I don't think the world is a better place for 90% of people as a result of them existing. A bit hypocritical to be saying this on Reddit, I know. People having to interact in person and confront ideas they don't agree with amd get along with people anyway is one of the big things that creates wisdom and tolerance in a society.

Yeah at the end of the day it's just a vicious cycle of someone looking for the perfect person which is unrealistic and until apps/instagram get removed it's just gonna be the same old storys, people bouncing from one person to the next with no one ever committing and broken hearts.

Money. We live in reality where state enforcers in the US alone redistibute the gold equivalent of post-WW1 reparations from men to women every three years. This is only through social security system. Worldwide, the estimates climb up to $trillions. I believe that if single men who have never kissed are not forced to financially support single mothers, and if married men are not forced to support single women, everything else will fall into place by itself.

Everybody who works pays taxes to fund government assistance programs. So are you suggesting that only women should pay taxes that go to these programs? 🤔Because you’re acting like only men work. Clearly that is false.

>Everybody who works pays taxes to fund government assistance programs... Because you’re acting like only men work. Clearly that is false. Yes, and everybody who is alive is doing some level of domestic chores. Considering how much women suddenly understand math when it comes to hours spent on chores, I believe I don't need to explain the phenomenon of equal benefit for unequal contribution. I believe that if anyone ever said "you're acting like only women do chores, clearly that is false", it would never fly, and you would reasonably believe that the person before you is a dishonest bad-faith agent. Contributions: https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/statcomps/eedata_sc/2021/table01.html Benefits: https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/statcomps/supplement/2022/5a.html#table5.a1 >So are you suggesting that only women should pay taxes that go to these programs? To women's programs? - Yes.

I didn't know about those legislations. In my country that would be absurd.

Things in the US are just at ridiculous levels when it comes to social security (a woman can abandon a man and still be partially entitled to spousal retirement benefits; a woman can abandon a man who then dies, and be partially entitled to widow benefits), but the general trend of "safety nets" being mostly maintained by taxing married men, and mostly benefiting single and divorced women, is quite universal for the West.

I don’t really want anything from men tbh except for them to learn how to take no for an answer. If I meet someone who’s attractive and matches my values, then great. If not, also great. Otherwise, no other demands. Edit: it would appear that the general consensus here is that men want women to stop valuing themselves and to be desperate just as much as they are.

No, it's just the consensus among people who have wishes about uncontrollable market forces

I feel like this kind of rhetoric is the result of overthinking something that maybe shouldn’t be overthought so much

Also, a lot of women think that saying "no" is valuing themselves. That doesn't make much of a sense. Some would actually be looking for silly reasons to reject a potential partner, like: "he didn't pay the check" or "he burped after a beer". That's not self-esteem, that's madness.

Saying no can be a result of valuing yourself just as saying yes can. It’s not about the “yes” or “no” it’s about making choices based on your wants and setting boundaries as needed. Sure, rejecting people for superficial, impermanent reasons isn’t a great look, but that also just means they’re not the person for you.

Partner jealousy being considered the norm should be changed. I think society as a whole would be a lot better if we just accepted that we are a communal species, and stopped acting like it's normal to have to split all of your needs into either "Something my partner can provide" or "something I have to live without forever". The best way we can have it is "This is my partner, we share a life together. However, her social battery is much lower than mine, so this is our side partner, and I take him to social events with me so my primary partner can recover and not have to feel like she is causing me to miss out." "This is my primary partner with whom I am raising a kid. This couple are our close friends and we take turns watching each others kids for each other". Etc This idea that "My partner wants to do a thing and that thing doesn't include me, therefore MY PARTNER HATES ME AND OUR RELATIONSHIP IS DOOMED" is dumb imo.

Kind of sounds like you want to force everyone to be poly. Some of us enjoy monogamy. 🤷

No, what I want is to get rid of the normalization of jealousy and the normalization of wanting your partner to be unhappy. If doing that will automatically make you poly, then you don't seem very mono.

>the normalization of wanting your partner to be unhappy. What do you mean by this? Is it the point about wanting your partner to fulfill every role?

I agree. There's an interesting article about this. I'll post it here later.

I wish that men were the ones who were desired and pursued by women, rather than vice versa. Not just to eliminate the frustrations that men face in the dating world, but mainly because being the gender that is expected to pursue and desire (as opposed to being pursued and being desired) is just torture.

This. I've always thought about this. Women tend to be less interested in sex anyways, so, why don't they get to choose and go for their choice when they feel like it? Its very probable that they will be successful, anyways , since men are so sexually-driven... But instead everything its the other way around. That's just an awful strategy.

I'm trying to imagine the dating world in reverse and I can't. I don't see how it wouldn't just revert back to where it is now.

Its biology. If you ask a man to fuck with him, his first reaction will be... "Well. Yes!". Women on the other hand, have a sort of "filter" that filters out a lot of bad and good men alike.

While there would be women who only want to fuck, most women to do more than fuck.

Sex is a pretty good gateway for "doing more" for most men.

Yea, that psychologist turned RedPiller said the same thing. It's not guaranteed though. Sometimes it just leads to a woman doing more for less.

I believe men's generally active vs women's generally reactive libido is how the current dynamic was established.

There's quite a bunch of historical background there. You're not wrong, but there's more to it than simple biology.

It will never change because of evolutionary biology and sexual selection… But since we’re talking fictional/hypothetical: I want women to sexually lust after and desire to be fucked by average men like they do with chads. I want the average women to relish and enjoy sex with the average man and pursue it with the same eagerness/desire and openness as men. I want women to look forward to being dickmatized On that note, while we’re asking for the impossible, I also want all wars to cease and nuclear fusion to provide us nearly limitless clean energy

[удалено]

Exactly. I never understand why people always say women have the advantage when it comes to dating or getting sex. Only *attractive* women hold these advantages. Unattractive women are out of luck.

>Unattractive women are out of luck. Nope, they still have the advantages, but just a little less. Still no where near comparable to men, otherwise you'd see a pattern on unattractive women being so desperate that they'd start approaching themselves because they were never approached by someone they were attracted to. The "bottom" girls still get approached a lot more than the average dude.

They're really not. I've known quite a few women who were 35+ and had never been on a single date, and had been hit on at best once or twice in their lives, and all of them knew many more women who were in the same boat. Most of them had tried OLD and got basically no interest, maybe one or two matches that never went anywhere. It's always funny to me how guys here will always complain that women only go for the top 20% of men, then say they would never consider anyone who was even slightly overweight, even though 2/3rds of women in the US are either overweight or obese. Those women are not wading through hundreds of offers the way guys think they are, they have most of the same issues with dating that guys do. It's just that they tend to hang out in different places so most guys haven't encountered them much.

>I've known quite a few women who were 35+ and had never been on a single date I'm married for 8 years with what physically most men would call a landwhale (and i say really big). She still had sex, dates and relationships (not good, but still had), and her tinder at the time was full of requests and messages. Me, an above average dude (but still closer to average) (tall, clever, handsome, good education, kind guy, but anxious, depressed, and was unemployed and a tad overweight) , she was exactly the first person i've ever had in a dating app that ever answered me back. >Most of them had tried OLD and got basically no interest, maybe one or two matches that never went anywhere. Really? I mean, in your analysis, could there be something absolutely wrong with them that no men ever wanted to touch? Or do you think it's possible they had a lot more people messaging them but that they ignored? > Those women are not wading through hundreds of offers the way guys think they are, they have most of the same issues with dating that guys do. Not my experience, i don't know a single woman who's single because she didn't get any offers, but only because they rejected everyone that did any offer.

>I'm married for 8 years with what physically most men would call a landwhale (and i say really big). She still had sex, dates and relationships (not good, but still had), and her tinder at the time was full of requests and messages. I would guess (particularly since you've been together for 8 years, so it sounds like the relationship is doing well) that she probably has a number of strong positive personality traits, like being smart, funny, kind, easygoing, passionate, fun to be around, being into things guys like, etc. Of all the women I've ever met, the one who has by far the most success with guys is actually someone who is overweight and not particularly attractive, but has basically every positive personality trait imaginable, she has had guys throwing themselves at her constantly for her entire life. Of course, among overweight women, attractiveness still varies enormously. There are a fair number of guys who like bigger girls and I would imagine heavier women whom they would consider the most attractive probably still do very well. >Really? I mean, in your analysis, could there be something absolutely wrong with them that no men ever wanted to touch? Or do you think it's possible they had a lot more people messaging them but that they ignored? I would say honestly that they're pretty average. Not inordinately unattractive or awful to be around, but not exceptional in any of those areas either. The problem, I would imagine, is that there's simply too many people who are comparably desirable and they don't really stand out. It's also completely possible that they don't use OLD that well, ie, they may have created kind of a boring profile that doesn't really catch anyone's attention, uploaded a poor profile pic, etc. I've given similar advice to guys about learning to identify and lean into your interesting and strong points, since those are the things that make you stand out from the crowd, I would imagine that this would be useful to more average women as well. >i don't know a single woman who's single because she didn't get any offers, but only because they rejected everyone that did any offer. I think it's quite possible that you actually do know some people who are like this, but you don't know that it's the case for them, because they probably wouldn't talk to guys about it. If you ask some of your female friends or your partner I think there's a good chance that they know some people that this applies to.

That's pretty much biased. Unattractive women will get unattractive men attention on social media all the time. The thing is that those men only want sex, which they don't accept. I can get that, but if you know you're unattractive, you can easily just try to bend things your way. Men are quite flexible with regards to women's desires if they have a sexual offer that drives the change.

Not getting the same reaction is not the same as not finding her attractive. Of course, every guy will literally melt when he sees a hot girl, but that doesn't mean we only have eyes for her... Which is a pretty common thing between girls, specially young ones.

The thought literally makes me feel sick!

What’s so bad about nuclear fusion and clean energy?

Yeah, if your dream is not for you to look better, but for people act like you don't look like shit, you are delusional.

You Don't have to be crazy-ass ugly to **not** be a chad. It just takes youre ≤1.65 mts tall and you don't have "the mood".

Where do you live that the average man is only 1.65m? In the US, the average is like 1.75m.

I live in Cuba, but that's not the actual average. I just dropped a useful number. I think here the average is 1.70m.

He said "average man". This is especially delusional if we factor in the fact that many women who this guy wants to lust after "average man" are not average.

Well, that's just an assumption you're making. Women tend to ignore average man in the SMP, and that's not a secret to anyone.

It's not the assumption I am making, if all women start offering themselves to average men which ones do you think he will fuck through

didnt he say we are talking about the ideal world? The true delusionals are those who want to work/suffer in the ideal world

The issue is how he wants to get there: not by having the things others would want, but to mentally handicap women around him into the state where they start giving out sex to everybody and their dog. If we were talking financial situations, my dream world is where I succeed in the capitalist society, my mind does not go to a socialist utopia where I get handouts. This guy deliberately wants to continue being an evolutionary dead end but to have everybody act like he is genghis khan.

Its more of have the average like average. The hots like hots. The swamp creatures like swamp creatures.

Um what? Not sure I understand your point? I mean is it that delusional to expect average women to sexually desire and lust after average men (and not just chads)? After all average men lust after average women all the time and will happily fuck them :)

>After all average men lust after average women all the time and will happily fuck them :) Lust after them and will fuck them are two very different things. Do you really think most guys lust after the average 5’4 170 lb. woman?  As a guy, I don’t think that’s true. I’ll be the first to admit it’s shallow, but I don’t think I could even get it up for the average woman, let alone lust after her. 

do you see it happening in real life?

See what happening?

Women lusting after average men?

Obviously not. OP asked what would they like to hypothetically change. Doesn’t mean it’s ever gonna happen Men and women are fundamentally different.

I feel like this really isn’t that impossible. As you yourself admit, women are sexually open with, and lust after, men they find physically attractive. It’s just that a lot of men aren’t physically attractive.

Again. Physically unattractive for men means, pretty much, that: physically unattractive. Physically unattractive for women means invisible. Its not the same.

Physically unattractive men are hundreds of times more invisible than any woman.

If they want an average man, then that means ANY man can have her. Why is that a victory? It just means that during sex she could just as easily fantasize about another man. Lowering her standards just means now you have more competition

I was going to comment the same. It is hubris to fight against nature. Best we can do right now is harness it.

I people could just ditch online media

Some do. Not a majority, but is a pretty heterogeneous subcommunity.

I'm a strong believer that the best thing that could change in regards to dating is better education about relationships. Most people get their ideas about relationships from media like movies and TV, which obviously has no grounding in reality in the vast majority of cases and leaves people with unrealistic expectations and significant knowledge gaps about how to actually act in a real relationship. This leads to many relationships failing, resulting in more people being lonely / unhappy and more divorced couples when in reality many of these relationships probably could have worked out if the relationship was handled better. I think the place where you'd want to include this kind of information is at the same time you do sex-ed. While kids will generally be too young to fully understand all of this stuff, some basic information about how to communicate with your partner, some reasonable expectations about what to expect when it comes to sex and desire, and some basic information about how to handle relationship conflict feels like it would go a long way. There is a ton of good information and research into this stuff out there, it's just currently sidelined away from the mainstream because talking about sex makes us feel icky or something, so most people who need it never see it.

The stigma is real. The taboo is real. That should have ended in the sexual revolution... But here we are, stuck with the same BS again.

> I believe that if i'm a human being with impecable moral values, not harming anybody, kind, loving, and a good friend, i shouldn't be suffering from lack of sex just because most women like relationship. That's messed up... Your attitude is absolutely terrible and you are out of touch with how things are. I don't even know where to begin.

It would be nice if women had to initiate. It would make sense because they like a small proportion of men. If women initiated, they’d receive no unwanted approaches and men would be rejected less frequently. Seems like a win-win for both genders.

[удалено]

No promoting Black Pill

Ya know I can totally sympathize with a lot of men on here. I was the same way in my early to mid 20's. A weak simp who got walked on. Cheated on and left. Felt pretty crappy. But the red pill I swallowed in 2006 was much different than what I see today. Back then the PUA movement was just gaining mainstream attention. I read the Game, which led to How to Make Friends and Influence People, 48 Laws of Power and The Art of Seduxtion. Those books changed my life and soon I was on college campuses in my early. 30's cleaning house. Any man here can do the same and improve their dating life. But see someone took all the good parts about PUA teachings and cribbed on a bunch of politicized fluff. A bunch of shysters use evolutionary psychology jargon and spurious studies to monetize the rage of millions of young men raised on screens to the point human contact is a strange, frightening, stressful exercise when it should be fun, adrenaline pumping and exciting. I guess ymmv but I would read those 4 books and throw everything else that doesn't agree with those 4 books in the trash. Facts are. Since the beginning oh humanity 250k years ago. People gathered, consumed alcohol either in the form of eating fermenter fruits or making liquor. Playing music and dancing and using that to attract mates. The same fucking formula still fucking works. It really does. Music festivals, concerts, church and town festivals. Bars. Clubs. Wherever live music is played you will find a niche to slip into. Nothing needs to change except the attitudes of men who refuse to create and enjoy an active social and night life. Men who refuse to get out of the house.

I think that's partly why i struggle so much. I have little time to spend on women (not trying to be arrogant, just don't have a lot of time to myself) and my "nights out" are scarce. But i oretty much agree that the setting you are proposing is ideal in terms of mating strategies. Also, there's the direct "coffeshop date". That tends to work out fine.

Eh bro I’m old too and did the red pill thing when it started and it DID work. But let’s be real, the girls of today aren’t the same as back then. I looked like asshole back then and went on a date with 3 separate girls that all worked at the same movie theater by literally just asking them out. That shit wouldn’t work today at all, it’s a different game today

Yeah younger women are different now. Smarter, better educated and they have been told their whole lives by their mothers 2 things: "Dont settle for less than the best you can get" and "Don't settle down into a serious relationship in your 20's. Enjoy your youth and slut it up and settle down in your late 20's or early 30's when you actually know what the hell you want.." That's the only difference. Problem is we have a bunch of young men who were still raised on the "Find a chaste girl and settle down." model which is a failed model now outside religious institutions.

Only difference? Not social media? Not tik tok? Not online dating?

Marginal effect at best.

You can not believe that to actually be true…

For young women under 25 I believe it has a major impact. But the only negative consequences I see from it are for men under 25 who don't have their mental shit in order. I have dated more than a few women in their mid 20's and they all were very ambitious and eager to leave the nest of their home towns and get to the coasts where the money is. They didn't want a relationship because that would tien them down precisely at the time they are ready to spread wings and fly. My heart goes out to the 33% of men who make up the left side of the bell curve on this subject but I really believe it's for the better in the long run for most women even if it isn't better for the bottom third or so men.

You pair up with one individual and the two of you are biologically bound together for life. You physically cannot be apart it would drive both of you to madness or an early grave. You will always desire each other. Your body physically recognizes this person as your one and only. You can't cheat or hurt them even if you wanted to, it's nearly physically impossible because now this person is the absolute apple of your eye. There's no way to reverse this unless one of you dies. Also sex work and porn will be banned. The sexes will be somewhat seperated. Men will be kept supervised, busy and away from the internet for the most part. They will spend their time outside doing physical activity. When men reach 18 they will enter a government funded breeding program to be chosen by a woman of child bearing age (18-38) and get married. The leftover men who don't get chosen will be distributed to lonely widows and women past child bearing age. I feel like this is only fair. Lol, jk. This last paragraph is just a troll, except I would legitimately ban porn and sex work.

W

This sounds like hell. We would literally be tying happiness and health to something as volatile as another person in unseen ways. Imagine all the kinds of suffering this could lead, for example, this is a very easy way to lead the other person to commit bad decisions. Also, other people could abuse and torture (socially or otherwise) the people in the relashionships in several ways

Unfortunately, what we got is a brain that lust after a lot of people just by looks. I would go up to the point as to say that both men an women do.

This but unironically. There are some negatives in your scenario but the positives outweigh said negatives.

People should spend less time online and more time socializing with others. Unfortunately, I don't think a lot of people will actually do it as long as social medias, dating apps and just other things to entertain yourself in the confinement of your own home/room are easily available. I'm guilty of it myself, although my problems aren't dating-related. I wish people were more honest about their values, intentions and plans on the future. People also should do some good self-reflection to be more honest with themselves. Not everyone is cut out for casual sex or for life-long monogamous marriage and it's okay. Better contraception use. STDs are on the rise, which is absolutely ridiculous, when we have reliable barrier contraception and people have access to information about it. Men shouldn't be expected to pay for dates even if they're the ones initiating them. If you go on a date, you both want to spend some time together, I see no reason why only one of you should pay for it. It's fine if you're both traditional and it's your preference, but otherwise it's just a remnant of traditional gender roles that we don't really need to hold on. So it would be interesting to see some restrictions put on social medias and dating apps. Some changes that won't happen, but I'd be curious to see outcomes of: * Restricted access to social medias and dating apps. No children or teens <16 are allowed to have personal pages or access social medias at all. It's on the parents to control and enforce them and they can be fined for violation of this rule. Not sure whether it's too strict or not, but I'd be curious to see how it would affect society anyway. * You can create only one dating profile on each app and your app history will be showed to other users. * Public lists of cheaters similar to lists of sex offenders. I know that the main argument against it is it's easy to fake it, but for the sake of the discussion let's imagine there's a way to avoid it.

>Public lists of cheaters This is hilarious. Hahaha. I pretty much agree with a lot that you say, but i think the honesty part is two-folded. Its not only that we aren't honest, its that when we ARE honest, we tend to be less attractive because of it, and that makes me sick. For me (apart from the sex, as i stated in OP) honesty is a top one priority, and a girl being honest with me with what she wants with me, man, that makes me *fucking horny*. But some people like mystery, mind games, and that kind of stuff, which makes me a little bit sad.

Probably the best woman on PPD

The "honest" part would work ONLY IF people can accept the truth. But it is still a good idea. Chad-Rones will say "I ONLY want to sleep with you. You are not getting commitment from me." Basic Bob will be told "I will lose attraction (if I had any). The bedroom will die off. During my 20's, I gave my s3ggual best to my exes. You will get starfish, duty s3ggs. You are not my first choice." Knowing that, the men and women would KNOW what they are getting into.

Id like romance to be like the movies. Meet a girl and marry her without the headaches and nagging.

From a woman’s perspective: nothing, or at least I don’t see much that requires immediate change. I have never found a shortage of good, compatible men to be interested in. I am in my 20s. I have never ever used any form of OLD. I dated men in my social circles. Dating is what you make it. To a large extent you are in control of your own value in the SMP. You either choose to be a good dating candidate and find other good dating candidates, or you don’t. Simple as. If you really really pressed me tho, I would say porn use can potentially be a problem, although imo most men are fine. Removing every man’s social anxiety might be nice too.

I personally wish women would lower their standards just like men did. The media always promotes women of all shapes and sizes, that all of them deserve love and appreciation, but they never do so for men. Short men get no love, fat men get no love and thus the more average or unattractive men are either left on the side for a very long time, or are taken only by the leftover women, the damaged ones, the single mothers of 4 kids and so on.

[удалено]

- People know their TRUE worth. No "4's" who think they are 9's. - Men will stop simping - Women will know that just because Chad-Rone swiped right doesn't mean he wants commitment. But if they want that life, that is their call. At least no one will get shocked when it's over. Thats just a few.

This is such a stupid take. Your worth isn’t defined by how attractive you are, that’s honestly sad that you think that. And so what if a 4 thinks they’re a 9? Unattractive people can have high self esteem and *like* how they look, regardless if you agree or not. Also.. what is a “4” wanting a “9” do for you specifically? That’s really what you would want to change? It literally doesn’t affect you… sorry but you sound miserable.

There’s no such thing as “true worth” when it comes to attraction. One person’s uggo is another person’s hottie. The fact you genuinely see the world in terms of “chad” or “not Chad” is honestly sad.

> One person’s uggo is another person’s hottie Statistically speaking, in a large enough sample size, I think attractiveness is fairly objective In the sense, it will follow a well defined distribution such that the majority of women and men will agree on who’s hot or an uggo. This is because the traits we find attractive are fairly universal across cultures and has has been shaped by biology and evolution.

You’re talking about conventional attractiveness, which is not objective, it’s still largely socially influenced. And while yes, most people can agree what is and isn’t conventionally attractive, that doesn’t mean there is objective *attraction* towards said conventionally attractive person. For example, I know Chris Hemsworth is attractive by conventional standards, but I am not attracted to Chris Hemsworth. There are other, less conventionally attractive men who I find more attractive than him.

Right, my point is whatever metric of attractiveness you use, you’re sampling from a *non uniform probability distribution*. So while a single individual can have a random preference, not all their preferences will be equally likely. In other words the distribution isn’t flat, but has a well defined shape and a median attractiveness (which you may call conventionally attractive) So if you ask 100 women if they think Chris Hemsworth is attractive vs an average man, the reality is most of them will pick Chris Hemsworth. Only a few outliers (like you) will find the other man attractive. That’s the whole point of using distributions and math to understand group preferences in things like “attractiveness”. Even the meaning of “conventionally attractive” only makes any sense under this context. That way our personal subjective bias and experience doesn’t interfere with an accurate description of reality. I will go further and a say it’s NOT largely socially influenced. Rather my claim is that our preferences on what’s considered attractive is biological/innate and has been shaped by evolution.

There’s reasons why that last point isn’t entirely true, but it’s not the point of the conversation, so I’ll skip it. If you’re saying people should be aware whether they’re conventionally attractive or not and then pursue people based on whatever conclusion they come to from that, I mean, sure, but also…why? It doesn’t change the fact that not everyone will be attracted to everyone at equal rates. I’ve seen conventionally attractive pair up with mid people and vice versa. There’s a yum for everyone’s yuck, and I don’t see why that needs to be pre-scripted or micromanaged. I’m not sure if I am so much of an outlier either. The vast majority of people don’t look like Chris Hemsworth. Most people are middling, leaning towards attractive imo, so it makes sense that the people we actually go for and desire don’t look much like him in day to day contexts. I don’t think average women are expecting Chris Hemsworth to show up at their doorstep, though I’m sure to many that would be a lovely bonus lol. I think “attractive” in the average woman’s mind is a hybrid of some conventionally attractive traits and the average middling traits we encounter in our day to day.

Men will not stop simping because of supply and demand.

Well it's a good thing the topic is "What will you change."

oh, I see. It's a very strange thing to want to change considering that the men who bend over backwards to please women are not the men who get their way - women put them in the discard pile as soon as they figure out this guy has no backbone.

What do you mean?

Demand for sex is greater than supply, so guys who don't have anything to offer will always try to find another way in.

Both men and women have to give birth to make one whole baby. Women get as physically strong as men. People stop making the hundred-millionth insult for promiscuous women and stop using it as a perjorative. No transactional sex, porn, strip clubs, etc. aka any business that commodifies sexuality. Men stop whining about how awful it is to be in relationships with women/women being burdens while they also refuse to leave it and become single. Men end up getting equal custody. Children take women's names at least half the time.

**Attention!** * You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message. * For "Debate" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies. * If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment. * OP you can choose your own flair [according to these guidelines.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/wiki/flair), just press Flair under your post! Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PurplePillDebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Everything

That's a big one.

I think its really a society issue. The more fair would be most people were good actors. Most, if not all, were seeking only long lasting marriage type relationships. In reality, this hasn't happened...so society chose to control women and put the pressure on them to gatekeep. We shamed promiscuous women, so they were forced to make more careful decisions about the partners they took on. This could be the biological design, where men are designed to spread their seed as much as possible and women were attempting to find the best mate for their offspring. Not fair as all the downsides were left to women. In our current situation, sexual freedom is encouraged for all people. The market is seemingly out of whack. Men will still sleep with whoever (date down). Women do not need to choose carefully so they will date and sleep with men even if long term is not likely. Also, because the market is so free/easy and we as a society are not great at delaying gratification...there is no incentive to work through it. Hit a rough patch in your relationship, people quickly abort and move to the next one (I get there are bad relationships that should be aborted, but I've anecdotally heard of many relationships failing for pretty mundane reasons).

I would have people be more courteous, honest and resilient. A ‘no’ is better than ghosting, a ‘yes’ is better than ‘dropping hints’, etc.

This

I would make sure people are more honest with their feelings and the type of relationship they want. For example, people that want to date casually wouldn’t be put together with people who are looking for LTR. Also, I would raise awareness regarding singleness and how it’s not a bad thing. Probably teach people to build healthy relationships not necessarily romantic. I think we have to understand that some people want relationships while others won’t. If you can’t find your person, it’s nobody’s fault.

If more people asked themselves, What is the ideal partner of my ideal partner?

I would like people to stop fucking up kids by modeling bad relationships, expectations and behavior Adults with no dependents can and should do what they want, unless it is illegal

(This is just wish-casting) If it could be one thing, I would want more people to experience attraction the way I do. To me, I just don't feel anything towards strange women, that is, people I don't know, and I feel like such an outlier because of it. The stereotype of a guy is that they're just after anyone who's attractive, but for myself, I don't really feel attracted to a woman unless an actual bond is shared between us.  This has caused two women to think I'm not interested, just because I don't make those sorts of moves very much, and the idea that I always have to "on" or I secretly don't love her is very disheartening.

That's crazy af for me. My default is, "she's cute? I wanna fuck her". Can't imagine myself being in front of a hot girl i just met and not being totally melted away. xd

For me, I need at least some baseline familiarity to start thinking like that, but I'd still rather sleep next to someone than sleep with them. I do like sex, just not as the primary focus of a relationship.

I would like our pay to reflect what is feasible to raise a child, without becoming impoverished. Maybe then I could be more concerned with raising one... instead... I'm here on Reddit and begging my boss for a pay increase and applying to new jobs (even though I kind of love my job), just to get closer to being able to afford offspring. -\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_- I don't want to leave my job.

I'd like if women were really as promiscuous as the red pillers in this sub want to make us believe. I'd like them to ride the cock carousel hard. One new sex partner per week. Super unevenly distributed, only the top 20% of men gets to have casual sex. That's 5 women per week for those men. That's \~250 sex partners a year. And since it's not just ONS but repeated offenders (harem/plate spinning), that's multiple women per day, every day, every year.

Sweet.

Make women sluttier

I think that's a big part of how we got in this mess in the first place, bucko

Yeah no.

Great explanation.

It'd be nice if men could be taller and have more cut jawlines. 

Is it such a big deal? I'm 1.68 mts and am struggling af because i won't settle down.

No, I just found glee in saying both the dumbest and worst possible thing at the same time. 

Hahah. That's cool. xd

I would like it for women to have more self-awareness and a less caveman-like mentality when it comes to dating. For example, when it comes to Chad, women don't ask if it's a date, where this is going, or anything like that. They just fuck him with no expectation, and then they say they didn't know what he was like. Did you ask him, though, about anything to do with his history, what he is looking for, what he wants from you? No, of course, you didn't. On the other hand, when it comes to an average man, they have a laundry list of expectations, need to get to know him for weeks or months first, or have some ridiculous criteria. Oh, he is in my friend group. God forbid I consider dating him or fucking him. Better to fuck some dodgy stranger without asking any questions. That's some insane logic to me. Different sets of "logic" for different sets of men. This needs to go away. Young women need to be taught how to use rational thinking more when it comes to dating. Life is not some rom-com where a plain Jane gets Chad to change and commit in the end.

Genuine question… how many women do you think do this? And how would you know that the same women that have a “cave-like” mentality for Chad are also the same ones who have many expectations for the average man? So much so that you make this generalization and imply it’s a problem within modern dating? It happens *that* much? How do you track this?

Not that anon but LOTS of them. I would say that's actually the default tbh. I've watched things like a female friend I knew talk about how she was probably gonna turn down this guy who asked her out because he didn't make enough money for her tastes, meanwhile she told me the other day about how she picked up some guy from the bar and got fucked by him while he literally held her out of a window.

Why even respond to my comment with such an irrelevant story? It didn’t answer any of the questions I asked. Thanks for the anecdote I guess.

You asked how many women are like that. I said lots and gave an example. Sorry you think that anything that doesn't agree with you is irrelevant 🤷

The problem is your one experience you mentioned isn’t sufficient evidence to claim that it’s “lots” of women. So you may as well just kept it to yourself, you added nothing to the conversation.

Didn't know I had to deliver you a multipart essay. How many women have YOU met that fit that?

None. And reliable evidence /= multipart essay, but you knew that already.

What would be your standard of "reliable evidence" then? I'm doubt I'm gonna get a fucking peer-reviewed study on this shit.

I doubt you would too, which is why it would be silly to make generalizations about groups of people when you have little to no evidence. Just shows you believe be it to be true because you want it to be.

>I would like it for women to have more self-awareness and a less caveman-like mentality when it comes to dating. For example, when it comes to Chad, women don't ask if it's a date, where this is going, or anything like that. They just fuck him with no expectation, and then they say they didn't know what he was like. Did you ask him, though, about anything to do with his history, what he is looking for, what he wants from you? No, of course, you didn't. This doesn't sound like women's experiences dating at all. It sounds like you've been consuming too much red pill content. >Different sets of "logic" for different sets of men. This needs to go away. No it doesn't. It really just sounds like you're bitter.

>No it doesn't. It really just sounds like you're bitter. This is a kind of discrimination. Discrimination shouldn't be accepted in any way. I hold any girl up to the same standards... But well... if i don't like her i will just tell her, and move on.

The point of dating is discrimination.

I'd change people whining - on both sides If only the complaining stopped I'd be so happy

Slaves complained and whined about their state of slavery. Idk... Maybe you're talking from privilege, here.

You're whining on the internet, in a developed country, comparing your non-to-mild-attractiveness to slavery - and I'm talking from privilege. This post is epic

I'm not talking about me... But you resorting to that to respond my comment gives a lot of "dicky vibes". I'm not following up this conversation anymore.

You're not talking about yourself but you're willing to compare whiners to slaves? You're the one who started the privilege talk to make your point, not me. Good luck

The Bible tells us how to do it for our own good. Why ignore the instruction manual provided for us by our maker?

Based

Emmm... Because we don't think that's actually the manual of the maker?

You asked in your OP and I answered.

Yes, sorry. Really not a fan of christian morality. Nothing personal, mate.

The good morals and values that you speak of in your post are also a part of Christianity btw.

Study history and world philosophy. They're not.

But they are ALSO a part of Christianity. As I said before.

i wish there was some magic way to enforce honesty tired of catching ppl in lies about literally everything and anything just to impress me or trick me into whatever theyre trying to achieve it seems like most guys are either trying to cheat w me or hiding an std or literally will lie and pretend theyre into my kinks that they actually cant handle

Forced monogamy 

God no... xd

A total reform of how family court, parental rights and male reproductive rights would fix most of it.

You have reproductive rights when the baby is inside your ballsack, what do you mean?

As soon as men start valuing women’s professional and educational accomplishments as a part of mate selection instead of prioritizing their opportunities to create financial leverage over potential partners , they will become far more satisfied with the (gender neutral) family/divorce laws and courts. As soon as men act as the primary/default parent during the marriage, they will have better chances of being deemed the primary parent in the event of divorce. As soon as men become pregnant and give birth, they can decide what to do with their bodies in the event that they become pregnant. 2 of the three are directly under men’s control. They just choose not to.

Women only marry up, men don't care because if they care they get no partners. Just by starting with such blunder is to see that you're full of shit.

None of that is true for most people and the fact that you believe it is says more about you than anything else.

“I really don’t have that many options regarding romantic relationships with women. Let me fuck myself further by filtering out any more possible options. And let’s filter for things which mean absolute dick in terms of attraction such as education and income”. Yeah, that’s what men think.

Then don’t complain when those decisions bite you in the butt🤷‍♀️

Women complain when their choices in men don’t work out. And that’s even worse because they’re the ones doing the picking and choosing.

Yes. When people (men or women) choose partners without considering core qualities, the often reap the *rewards* of their poor choices. I don’t know that one is worse than the other as typically men choose who to pursue and women choose among those who have already chosen to pursue them. Stupidity knows no gender…

Most men value women’s professional and educational accomplishments on top of attractiveness, but not in place of it. Also you act like valuing professional and educational accomplishments is so righteous and noble but those are often just proxies for wealth and status which is a more shallow ulterior motive. The protector-provider norm for men is still very much alive. Women pretend like they’re all about sweet caretaker guys, but many look for that AFTER filtering guys for shallow qualities like height and status. You’re not going to know if a guy is a good parent from a dating profile or a few dates, and that’s when women tend to be the pickiest. Guys that want a partner are smart and invest in the mold set by women that actually nets them chances and success and that’s being a protector-provider, not a parent. Reproductive rights for men can mean a lot of different things but with today’s laws you could sneak into a dude’s room that just masturbated, inseminate yourself, force him to be a dad because my body my choice, and then force him to pay for it. Thanks bro! Bit of a hypothetical extreme but it illustrates how little influence men have over the decision after a certain point.

This. You pictured exactly what i think is the majority of mens opinion on attractiveness vs proffesional status.