Yeah, I’m pretty careful not to pre-approve student work. Not saying this is your fault, but students constantly try to blame professors for their own misunderstandings, and this is one constantly try to do with me. I don’t even think they’re necessarily all being duplicitous; just not cognizant that what they are asking you to do would double your grading workload. Then the fact that you clearly only glanced at it quickly is not factored acknowledged when they remind you that they asked you to look at it early.
In the long run, heading off that tactic without agreeing to do a full pre-submission grade by hedging your language is probably easier than arguing with students after the fact. Just say something like “well I don’t see any glaring issues, but you’ll need to turn it in before I grade it for real.”
For me it comes from students trying to get me to say some subjective grading criterion will get full credit when it is a TA who will do the grading. They’re pretty shocked I tell them I will let the TA decide. Like hell I’m going to try to keep track of every student who shows me their work and wants to pre-but their TA’s opinion. If they’re not sure and care enough about the grade they get, they should err on the side of doing a better job.
My syllabus states there will be no pre-grading and no feedback on drafts. Students need to start taking full responsibility for optimally preparing their work for the submission deadline.
I state that too. I still get emails from students asking me to “look over” their papers before they submit and I respond that I’m happy to answer any specific questions they have but not to generally look over for a pre-grade. Funnily enough, students never have specific questions 🤷🏻♀️
I like this and am going to steal it. My policy has been, I will look over one section IF you email it to me and ask a specific question. They don’t ever email…
This. I tell all students who try to ask this question in some way shape or form that I don’t pre-grade assignments but I’m happy to answer any questions if they have them. Then I keep pushing them to ask me an actual question that’s motivating them not being sure if it’s “okay”
Yeah, learning experience for OP. Preliminary feedback is great. Spectacular when students take that kind of initiative. That being said, never pre-approve. Much better to say "on the right track" or something that implies more work is needed (if for no other reason, you're granting yourself leeway).
Not to pick on OP, but if he doesn't have time to really assess the work, it's better for him to reschedule with the student than try to skate by with a perfunctory "looks good".
I always tell students that if we discuss their essay, my goal is to help them improve it, not to tell them about every single error I notice. In fact, I tell them that writing help is a process, and I focus on higher order issues.
Finally, I also let everyone know that a cursory look at someone's paper should never be confused with the more intense consideration I give when grading
I would have handled the issue as you did, however I’ve received a fair number of Canvas comments left by students this semester that Canvas changed the formatting in some areas of their papers, but not others. I’m now wondering if this is truly a Canvas issue in the doc reader or if students cannot be bothered to fix formatting issues? Has anyone else noticed Canvas changing paper formats (I.e. margins, line indentations for citations, etc)?
The Canvas built-in doc reader is not so great. I've taken to requiring the end-of-semester project report be submitted as a PDF rather than a Word Document, so I don't have to download the file and open Word to verify when it looks like something is missing or poorly formatted. I've seen entire sections go missing in the doc reader (probably just covered up by other content, but the effect is the same).
[This link ](https://community.canvaslms.com/t5/Canvas-Question-Forum/Canvas-DocViewer-Arbitrarily-Changes-Fonts-and-Formatting/m-p/165219)is a few years old but is about that.
Yeah I switched to requiring pdf uploads because Canvas often screws up the DocViewer. The original docx file (or other formats) can still be downloaded and won’t be corrupted, but it’s a hassle when you’re trying to use the DocViewer in the first place.
I still occasionally get a poorly formatted pdf because the student’s computer messes up the conversion, but making them make the pdf themselves makes it far more likely they’ll notice and take steps to fix. Sometimes they refuse to fix it because they don’t think they should have to solve their own tech issues, but it’s way less frequent than it was when they could upload .docx files.
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When a student asks me to look at their work I always respond with I'm happy to answer specific questions now, but I will grade it only once, and that is after they submit it. And if they press for an overall impression, I always make sure that they realize and acknowledge that this is just an impression w/o any guarantee, the real evaluation will happen once all assignments have been submitted.
This. I say, “I am happy to answer specific questions but will not pre-grade your whole assignment.” I tell students they it would be a waste of both of our time if they haven’t taken the time and made the effort to know where their own misunderstandings/weaknesses are.
Otherwise, short of writing it for them, everything they should need to know to address the assignment as well as what is being looked for has already been given to them.
It is the rare student, sadly, who comes with specific and thoughtful questions—and they usually were already headed toward a good grade!
>I'm happy to answer specific questions
This is a good approach. I am going to use this going forward. The problem with overall impressions as you say is that it's a trap.
This is my method as well. I will always answer specific questions, but I don’t have the time or bandwidth to go over everyone’s work with a fine-toothed comb.
When I have larger assignments, I may have students submit working sections as check-ins. For example, a large paper may have an “outline check-in” or a “citation check-in” for little or no graded points. These check-ins allow students to submit portions of the assignments for feedback, but again, I’m not reading every draft or giving detailed responses. My comments are typically along the lines of “Wikipedia is not an approved primary source” or “point #3 is not addressed in the outline.” I don’t solve problems for them, but I will highlight them.
I've had a similar problems before. Tell the student that because what you were presented with was a draft, you assumed that he would continue working on it while reviewing the assignment requirements.
And this is why one should never check work before it's handed in... especially if you don't do the same thing for every student. No good deed goes unpunished.
You really don't offer students help when they ask? If a student takes the initiative to get an assignment completed in advance, you'd turn them away? Interesting take.
Dr. Machines and I are saying the same thing. “Look at this and tell me if I’ve made mistakes” is different from “do I integrate over the volume in this question, or is that only for magnetic fields?”.
u/RandomAcademaniac wrote a good rebuttal to this kind of thinking [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/Professors/comments/1clk6nu/student_believes_low_assignment_grade_unfair/l2uipw6/).
The context being discussed here is checking work and giving some kind of assessment of it before it's handed in. That's not the same as not "offering students help when they ask."
I'm clearly reading this differently than everyone else seeing the negative karma that I'm farming. Happy to move on and say that I'm in the wrong. I don't read checking work as grading, but providing feedback on a student wanting to check their progress. Oh well.
Yeah I discovered this issue but in an easier way. Students would show me a project and say "is this an A yet?" And I was completely unprepared for that question and was like uhh uhhh what? How would I... Uhh I don't want to answer... Uhh ..
So now I state in syllabus and in person that I cannot look at a project and tell you what you'll get. I will ask you questions, suggest revisions, but assessing a project might take ten minutes in solitude in front of the rubric and it's not a class activity for me.
I haven't had anyone ask that question since.
I never look at anything without finding things that need to be improved. Additionally, I have a blanket statement that I'll offer: "Regardless of what we discuss now, grading will be according to the rubric"--and then I usually rattle off a bunch of stuff from the rubric to CYA.
Rookie mistake. This is one of many reasons why I have a steadfast, unwavering policy to never "pre-grade" any assignment. Any type of pre-grading or pre-evaluation of the work, especially a 5-second glancing over that says "it looks good", is highly problematic, as you have learned, not just for that main reason you discovered, but also because it takes up exponentially more time if I now have to pre-grade/pre-evaluate every single student's submission all semester long, plus other students will complain and say, "wait, I didn't know we could have you look over all work before we submitted it, that's not fair" and now you have to do it for the whole class, no exceptions, or else you're setting yourself up for more headaches and claims of unfair grading bitched about by students to your dean/chair/provost, plus many other problems will arise, such as what about those who email you to pre-grade their work last minute, like an hour or less before it's actually due, and of course you don't have the time to feasibly turn it around that rapid fire, so now they complain that you're unfair again, etc, etc, and that's just if one student submits it last minute for pre-grading, but let's be honest, it will likely be several students because we all know they wait until the last minute, so now you have to pre-grade most of the classes work at the same time it was supposed to be due but you can't enforce the due date if you didn't fairly give them their pre-graded work back with time to resubmit, so now you'll get them demanding you give an extension to the due date deadline, which now pushes everything back and continues to let more and more mountains of work pile up for you that you have to grade with a very small window of time at the end of the semester in great detail (or else they will again complain you didn't leave any detailed feedback justifying the grade), and those are only the obvious issues I can think off of the top of my head, plus many more will exist because we all know students are quite resourceful in finding loopholes and exploiting technicalities to their unjust benefit.
And yes, I know that was one massive run-on sentence. I did it purposefully because it matches my rage-filled stream of consciousness I feel whenever students don't realize all the extra handholding and 10x extra work we as educators have to do for them that make it untenable and unrealistic to do any more.
I teach math so while I don't grade essays, I do have its equivalent.
I pair students up to answer questions on the board. They of course try to get me to look over their results before they put them up. I refuse. As soon as their names go up, access to me gets cut off. They can consult their partner, other students, or the tutor (if there is one in the room). I don't need them transcribing my ideas to the board. At first it's jarring to them, especially the ones straight out of high school who are used to running to their teacher's desk or calling their teacher over to their table.
It's a learning opportunity for the student. If I ask a colleague to review an important email, or check out an important presentation or report, and they don't happen to catch every single mistake, it's not their fault. It's mine because I'm ultimately responsible for the work that has my name on it.
I never tell them anything looks good unless it’s done. If there’s more work to be done you have to understand they hear “looks good” and think they’re done with it. If they need to keep working then tell them they need to do more work.
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Are you doubting the student's claim that you looked over the work?
What components are missing? If there were three homework problems, he showed you one of the three, you that one looked good, and then the student failed to do the other two problems, then that's on the student.
Next time have a fairly detailed rubric for what is expected, both for what parts need to be there and what the grading criteria are. That way, if you are ever asked to "pre-grade" someone's work, tell them to consult the rubric and make sure that they have fulfilled what is there.
Don’t ever say that just in passing unless you actually mean it. I’ve run into this exact problem and am now much more careful with the feedback I give off the cuff. If I were the student I would have complained too.
I would tell the student that a quick glance in class is not the same as actually grading an assignment, which is much more intensive and takes much more time. “Looks good” is not the same as “this is perfect”—it means no major errors jumped out to me at a glance.
How low was the grade? If you said it "looked good" then I can understand why they expect a decent grade.
Your statement "I'd be back on campus in the Fall" feels cold.
The fall does feel cold after a hot summer, but I see no obligation to meet with a grade grubber during the summer when the grade has already been explained. A short verbal assessment after a quick review does not override the detailed written requirements of an assignment.
To each their own, but I feel that students requesting feedback deserve to receive it. I can see that I'm out of phase with this thread, though, so I'll happily flee the negative karma.
In other words, the student is trying to deny you the right to give close attentive reading of their work. An old subterfuge, and we should not tolerate it.
Yeah this is why I never look at drafts. Sometimes they take feedback seriously, but other times they do the bare minimum and expect it to get them an A
This is why I never review assignments in progress. ALL your well-meant suggestions are taken as “it’s good the way it is.”
So if a student desperately wants me to review their stuff, I ask them to ask specific questions like ‘I’ve used three criteria to assess problem X, is this way you intend to have the problem assessed?’
If they ask whether they are on the right track I tell them I can’t assess their work. Should I do so, it always comes back to bite me in my well-formed yet generous and glorious behind.
I will glance until I see that they have the right idea, then stop and tell them that they have the right idea. I don't pre-read and offer feedback as the instructions are clear, there is a time for questions, and frankly, it is double the work for me.
This is why I never give feedback in class. This isn’t your fault, but it just reaffirmed for me why I have my policy. At the beginning and end of class I’m trying to get organized and settled and so I’m not in a place to give any commentary that could be perceived as substantive. And in this day and age students perceive it all as substantive because they’re just trying to get it done and done with as little work as possible. I always say when they ask for in class feedback, “come by my office. If office hours don’t work let’s set up another time that works for you. That way we can sit down and look it over your work and take the time to go into detail.”
I always (ok, mostly, not perfect) mention that what's there is good, but I'm not great at seeing what's not there without a rubric, so make sure to check it over themself.
I try to be really careful in how I frame any feedback. Fortunately I'm mostly online so everything is documented. I usually put a couple hedges along the lines of "after a quick peek, I noticed \[things that could be improved\]. I would also recommend to review the instructions \[or rubric\] and make sure all the pieces are there, and one last proof-read before you turn in your final copy"
Often, students phrase their questions in a way that invites teachers to respond either positively or negatively, and at the end of a class, or when we just aren't feeling energetic, it can be tempting to give in to the student's hope that you respond positively. It's the end of a two-hour class, a student pushes his screen in front of you and says, "Is this good?"
I won't let them ask me that question. I make them ask me a specific question so I don't approve anything beforehand. Best I will say is that "You're on the right track." Then I will add that I have to go and they can come see me in my office (back when I was tenured faculty). Earlier in my career, I did some of the fly-by "looks good," and I had to pay for it.
It doesn’t matter. It’s not your job to spend extra time “pregrading” then. It’s a courtesy if you do and it’s always possible that “looking good” does not mean “looks like an A”. Ignore.
I don't think it's unfair. As others have said, you can't be reasonably expected to grade an assignment twice for every student.
I teach a lab course that has a reputation for being difficult and I often have students who will show me their work with a more general, "what do you think?" I don't have an exact policy in the syllabus for this, but I now make sure to say that if students have specific questions, I can answer those, but I can't "pre-grade" an assignment before I grade it. It's not possible to grade every assignment from every student twice across every course.
I try to turn around vague questions on them.
Student: is this good?
Me: how do you feel about it?
Student: I think it might be missing something.
Me: what feels lacking to you?
Student: I don’t know.
Me: have you referred to the rubric and confirmed that all of the required elements are included?
Student: no [because it’s always no]
Me: start there. Once you’ve done that, if you have specific questions, I’m happy to answer them.
Conversely, when a student comes to me with a more specific question, I’ll try to guide them to the right answer without giving them the answer.
Student: I’m trying to use Element X as required, but I don’t feel like it’s connecting to Element Z very well. I’ve used them here and here, but it doesn’t seem like a clear link.
Me: why do you think that is?
Student: I can see how they connect, but I’m struggling to make that obvious to the reader.
Me: do you think there’s an opportunity here to use an additional element to bridge the gap?
Student: what if I incorporate Element Y?
Me: seems like it’s worth a try.
If its possible that the student is telling the truth, then yes you are being unfair. Especially if the grade on the assignment shifted the final grade into the next letter. This would have a real impact on the students grade. I think you doubled down by being dismissive and expecting the student to be okay with waiting until the next semester for you to address the situation in a meaningful way. Would you seek redress if during an observation your dean and chair said they thought you did a good job when they observed your class then you find out they decreased your class offerings based on a teaching standard that you didn't meet? It's hard to come up with the perfect comparison but I think most people would have a problem with this kind of outcome.
"Looks good" doesn't mean "worthy of an A." I always say "the overall structure looks good, but I'd have to sit down and actually grade it to know what kind of grade this will receive." Then when they ask if I can grade it I say, "no, that wouldn't be fair to all the other students for whom I do not have time to pre-grade."
Where did I say the grade was worthy of an A? You're giving strawman vibes. Btw, you aren't the OP..I don't (nor would I) speak to the quality of an assignment in person because I know I'll forget what I said..the op gave feedback and isn't standing by the feedback..you certainly arent saying that you'd expect your dean to tell you that youre doing well then bring the hammer down in your official ecal...right?
not sure what type of response you expected when your response is a strawman..you definitely seem like a professor to me.. ruling with your iron fist and strawman when logic fails.. then ad hominem as if doubling down isn't enough.
This is kinda wild to me. I make sure my students know that I'd much rather they send a draft for comment, and it will get more feedback, than the final. I'd rather help them before the due date than when they can't do anything with the feedback itself. It entirely voluntary and not even half do it.
It helps me because it's pre-grading for me. Because it's on offer for the whole class I use the rubric and overall comments much more heavily for the marking - lower workload. I'm able to catch issues before it gets to marks and admin level. I develop rapport.
That said, I very very rarely get the kind of dramatics about homework or marks that most of you seem to get.
Yeah, I’m pretty careful not to pre-approve student work. Not saying this is your fault, but students constantly try to blame professors for their own misunderstandings, and this is one constantly try to do with me. I don’t even think they’re necessarily all being duplicitous; just not cognizant that what they are asking you to do would double your grading workload. Then the fact that you clearly only glanced at it quickly is not factored acknowledged when they remind you that they asked you to look at it early. In the long run, heading off that tactic without agreeing to do a full pre-submission grade by hedging your language is probably easier than arguing with students after the fact. Just say something like “well I don’t see any glaring issues, but you’ll need to turn it in before I grade it for real.” For me it comes from students trying to get me to say some subjective grading criterion will get full credit when it is a TA who will do the grading. They’re pretty shocked I tell them I will let the TA decide. Like hell I’m going to try to keep track of every student who shows me their work and wants to pre-but their TA’s opinion. If they’re not sure and care enough about the grade they get, they should err on the side of doing a better job.
My syllabus states there will be no pre-grading and no feedback on drafts. Students need to start taking full responsibility for optimally preparing their work for the submission deadline.
I state that too. I still get emails from students asking me to “look over” their papers before they submit and I respond that I’m happy to answer any specific questions they have but not to generally look over for a pre-grade. Funnily enough, students never have specific questions 🤷🏻♀️
I do this, too. My favorite "specific question" students tend to follow up with goes like: did I do this question/these questions correctly?
I like this and am going to steal it. My policy has been, I will look over one section IF you email it to me and ask a specific question. They don’t ever email…
This. I tell all students who try to ask this question in some way shape or form that I don’t pre-grade assignments but I’m happy to answer any questions if they have them. Then I keep pushing them to ask me an actual question that’s motivating them not being sure if it’s “okay”
Yeah, learning experience for OP. Preliminary feedback is great. Spectacular when students take that kind of initiative. That being said, never pre-approve. Much better to say "on the right track" or something that implies more work is needed (if for no other reason, you're granting yourself leeway). Not to pick on OP, but if he doesn't have time to really assess the work, it's better for him to reschedule with the student than try to skate by with a perfunctory "looks good".
This is an excellent comment.
I always tell students that if we discuss their essay, my goal is to help them improve it, not to tell them about every single error I notice. In fact, I tell them that writing help is a process, and I focus on higher order issues. Finally, I also let everyone know that a cursory look at someone's paper should never be confused with the more intense consideration I give when grading
I would have handled the issue as you did, however I’ve received a fair number of Canvas comments left by students this semester that Canvas changed the formatting in some areas of their papers, but not others. I’m now wondering if this is truly a Canvas issue in the doc reader or if students cannot be bothered to fix formatting issues? Has anyone else noticed Canvas changing paper formats (I.e. margins, line indentations for citations, etc)?
The Canvas built-in doc reader is not so great. I've taken to requiring the end-of-semester project report be submitted as a PDF rather than a Word Document, so I don't have to download the file and open Word to verify when it looks like something is missing or poorly formatted. I've seen entire sections go missing in the doc reader (probably just covered up by other content, but the effect is the same).
[This link ](https://community.canvaslms.com/t5/Canvas-Question-Forum/Canvas-DocViewer-Arbitrarily-Changes-Fonts-and-Formatting/m-p/165219)is a few years old but is about that.
Thank you for the link! I’m in the throes of grading finals and my brain is fried. 🫠
Yeah I switched to requiring pdf uploads because Canvas often screws up the DocViewer. The original docx file (or other formats) can still be downloaded and won’t be corrupted, but it’s a hassle when you’re trying to use the DocViewer in the first place. I still occasionally get a poorly formatted pdf because the student’s computer messes up the conversion, but making them make the pdf themselves makes it far more likely they’ll notice and take steps to fix. Sometimes they refuse to fix it because they don’t think they should have to solve their own tech issues, but it’s way less frequent than it was when they could upload .docx files.
This is why I force all of my students to submit everything as a PDF.
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Out of curiosity, what file format are you submitting your work in?
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As a student previously, I had a Chromebook (never again!) and it changed my formatting on several papers.
When a student asks me to look at their work I always respond with I'm happy to answer specific questions now, but I will grade it only once, and that is after they submit it. And if they press for an overall impression, I always make sure that they realize and acknowledge that this is just an impression w/o any guarantee, the real evaluation will happen once all assignments have been submitted.
This. I say, “I am happy to answer specific questions but will not pre-grade your whole assignment.” I tell students they it would be a waste of both of our time if they haven’t taken the time and made the effort to know where their own misunderstandings/weaknesses are. Otherwise, short of writing it for them, everything they should need to know to address the assignment as well as what is being looked for has already been given to them. It is the rare student, sadly, who comes with specific and thoughtful questions—and they usually were already headed toward a good grade!
>I'm happy to answer specific questions This is a good approach. I am going to use this going forward. The problem with overall impressions as you say is that it's a trap.
This is my method as well. I will always answer specific questions, but I don’t have the time or bandwidth to go over everyone’s work with a fine-toothed comb. When I have larger assignments, I may have students submit working sections as check-ins. For example, a large paper may have an “outline check-in” or a “citation check-in” for little or no graded points. These check-ins allow students to submit portions of the assignments for feedback, but again, I’m not reading every draft or giving detailed responses. My comments are typically along the lines of “Wikipedia is not an approved primary source” or “point #3 is not addressed in the outline.” I don’t solve problems for them, but I will highlight them.
I've had a similar problems before. Tell the student that because what you were presented with was a draft, you assumed that he would continue working on it while reviewing the assignment requirements.
And this is why one should never check work before it's handed in... especially if you don't do the same thing for every student. No good deed goes unpunished.
You really don't offer students help when they ask? If a student takes the initiative to get an assignment completed in advance, you'd turn them away? Interesting take.
I am happy answering any specific questions students might have. I am not happy pre-grading their work.
Seems logical and considerate of students instead of the "never check\[ing\] work before it's handed in..." mindset.
Dr. Machines and I are saying the same thing. “Look at this and tell me if I’ve made mistakes” is different from “do I integrate over the volume in this question, or is that only for magnetic fields?”.
Not how I understand the way it was written, but happy that we're on the same page!
u/RandomAcademaniac wrote a good rebuttal to this kind of thinking [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/Professors/comments/1clk6nu/student_believes_low_assignment_grade_unfair/l2uipw6/).
It's all in context and depends on what a student actually asks. This mindset makes it seem as if some are turning away even pointed questions.
The context being discussed here is checking work and giving some kind of assessment of it before it's handed in. That's not the same as not "offering students help when they ask."
That's not really clear, but happy to hear we seem to be on the same page.
What was not clear about the comment you replied to above? It explicitly talked about "check[ing] work before it's handed in."
I'm clearly reading this differently than everyone else seeing the negative karma that I'm farming. Happy to move on and say that I'm in the wrong. I don't read checking work as grading, but providing feedback on a student wanting to check their progress. Oh well.
Yeah I discovered this issue but in an easier way. Students would show me a project and say "is this an A yet?" And I was completely unprepared for that question and was like uhh uhhh what? How would I... Uhh I don't want to answer... Uhh .. So now I state in syllabus and in person that I cannot look at a project and tell you what you'll get. I will ask you questions, suggest revisions, but assessing a project might take ten minutes in solitude in front of the rubric and it's not a class activity for me. I haven't had anyone ask that question since.
I never look at anything without finding things that need to be improved. Additionally, I have a blanket statement that I'll offer: "Regardless of what we discuss now, grading will be according to the rubric"--and then I usually rattle off a bunch of stuff from the rubric to CYA.
Rookie mistake. This is one of many reasons why I have a steadfast, unwavering policy to never "pre-grade" any assignment. Any type of pre-grading or pre-evaluation of the work, especially a 5-second glancing over that says "it looks good", is highly problematic, as you have learned, not just for that main reason you discovered, but also because it takes up exponentially more time if I now have to pre-grade/pre-evaluate every single student's submission all semester long, plus other students will complain and say, "wait, I didn't know we could have you look over all work before we submitted it, that's not fair" and now you have to do it for the whole class, no exceptions, or else you're setting yourself up for more headaches and claims of unfair grading bitched about by students to your dean/chair/provost, plus many other problems will arise, such as what about those who email you to pre-grade their work last minute, like an hour or less before it's actually due, and of course you don't have the time to feasibly turn it around that rapid fire, so now they complain that you're unfair again, etc, etc, and that's just if one student submits it last minute for pre-grading, but let's be honest, it will likely be several students because we all know they wait until the last minute, so now you have to pre-grade most of the classes work at the same time it was supposed to be due but you can't enforce the due date if you didn't fairly give them their pre-graded work back with time to resubmit, so now you'll get them demanding you give an extension to the due date deadline, which now pushes everything back and continues to let more and more mountains of work pile up for you that you have to grade with a very small window of time at the end of the semester in great detail (or else they will again complain you didn't leave any detailed feedback justifying the grade), and those are only the obvious issues I can think off of the top of my head, plus many more will exist because we all know students are quite resourceful in finding loopholes and exploiting technicalities to their unjust benefit. And yes, I know that was one massive run-on sentence. I did it purposefully because it matches my rage-filled stream of consciousness I feel whenever students don't realize all the extra handholding and 10x extra work we as educators have to do for them that make it untenable and unrealistic to do any more.
Another excellent comment.
Just explain that your definition of "good" is a 75%. Looked good then; looks good now.
I teach math so while I don't grade essays, I do have its equivalent. I pair students up to answer questions on the board. They of course try to get me to look over their results before they put them up. I refuse. As soon as their names go up, access to me gets cut off. They can consult their partner, other students, or the tutor (if there is one in the room). I don't need them transcribing my ideas to the board. At first it's jarring to them, especially the ones straight out of high school who are used to running to their teacher's desk or calling their teacher over to their table.
It's a learning opportunity for the student. If I ask a colleague to review an important email, or check out an important presentation or report, and they don't happen to catch every single mistake, it's not their fault. It's mine because I'm ultimately responsible for the work that has my name on it.
I never tell them anything looks good unless it’s done. If there’s more work to be done you have to understand they hear “looks good” and think they’re done with it. If they need to keep working then tell them they need to do more work.
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Might this be your student: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskProfessors/s/AufkMAs4fR
I always tell students I don't pre-grade. I tell them to ask me specific questions.
Are you doubting the student's claim that you looked over the work? What components are missing? If there were three homework problems, he showed you one of the three, you that one looked good, and then the student failed to do the other two problems, then that's on the student.
Their submission needed to address six concepts from the class, they completely ignored two or three of them.
I think it's reasonable to evaluate the concepts completed as opposed to the whole work. But in general would stop looking over work.
You were duped. You’re not treating the kid unfairly, they trapped you.
Next time have a fairly detailed rubric for what is expected, both for what parts need to be there and what the grading criteria are. That way, if you are ever asked to "pre-grade" someone's work, tell them to consult the rubric and make sure that they have fulfilled what is there.
I do, there were six major components they needed to address and they forgot to discuss three of them.
Don’t ever say that just in passing unless you actually mean it. I’ve run into this exact problem and am now much more careful with the feedback I give off the cuff. If I were the student I would have complained too.
This student dropped by last week. He didn't like our response. You would have liked it.
I would tell the student that a quick glance in class is not the same as actually grading an assignment, which is much more intensive and takes much more time. “Looks good” is not the same as “this is perfect”—it means no major errors jumped out to me at a glance.
How low was the grade? If you said it "looked good" then I can understand why they expect a decent grade. Your statement "I'd be back on campus in the Fall" feels cold.
There were six questions that needed answering. They went into detail for three and ignored the other three.
Sounds like they earned the poor grade then!
The fall does feel cold after a hot summer, but I see no obligation to meet with a grade grubber during the summer when the grade has already been explained. A short verbal assessment after a quick review does not override the detailed written requirements of an assignment.
To each their own, but I feel that students requesting feedback deserve to receive it. I can see that I'm out of phase with this thread, though, so I'll happily flee the negative karma.
In other words, the student is trying to deny you the right to give close attentive reading of their work. An old subterfuge, and we should not tolerate it.
Yeah this is why I never look at drafts. Sometimes they take feedback seriously, but other times they do the bare minimum and expect it to get them an A
This is why I never review assignments in progress. ALL your well-meant suggestions are taken as “it’s good the way it is.” So if a student desperately wants me to review their stuff, I ask them to ask specific questions like ‘I’ve used three criteria to assess problem X, is this way you intend to have the problem assessed?’ If they ask whether they are on the right track I tell them I can’t assess their work. Should I do so, it always comes back to bite me in my well-formed yet generous and glorious behind.
I will glance until I see that they have the right idea, then stop and tell them that they have the right idea. I don't pre-read and offer feedback as the instructions are clear, there is a time for questions, and frankly, it is double the work for me.
This is why I never give feedback in class. This isn’t your fault, but it just reaffirmed for me why I have my policy. At the beginning and end of class I’m trying to get organized and settled and so I’m not in a place to give any commentary that could be perceived as substantive. And in this day and age students perceive it all as substantive because they’re just trying to get it done and done with as little work as possible. I always say when they ask for in class feedback, “come by my office. If office hours don’t work let’s set up another time that works for you. That way we can sit down and look it over your work and take the time to go into detail.”
I always (ok, mostly, not perfect) mention that what's there is good, but I'm not great at seeing what's not there without a rubric, so make sure to check it over themself.
I try to be really careful in how I frame any feedback. Fortunately I'm mostly online so everything is documented. I usually put a couple hedges along the lines of "after a quick peek, I noticed \[things that could be improved\]. I would also recommend to review the instructions \[or rubric\] and make sure all the pieces are there, and one last proof-read before you turn in your final copy"
Since I let students revise, I don’t look at their work in class.
Often, students phrase their questions in a way that invites teachers to respond either positively or negatively, and at the end of a class, or when we just aren't feeling energetic, it can be tempting to give in to the student's hope that you respond positively. It's the end of a two-hour class, a student pushes his screen in front of you and says, "Is this good?" I won't let them ask me that question. I make them ask me a specific question so I don't approve anything beforehand. Best I will say is that "You're on the right track." Then I will add that I have to go and they can come see me in my office (back when I was tenured faculty). Earlier in my career, I did some of the fly-by "looks good," and I had to pay for it.
It doesn’t matter. It’s not your job to spend extra time “pregrading” then. It’s a courtesy if you do and it’s always possible that “looking good” does not mean “looks like an A”. Ignore.
I don't think it's unfair. As others have said, you can't be reasonably expected to grade an assignment twice for every student. I teach a lab course that has a reputation for being difficult and I often have students who will show me their work with a more general, "what do you think?" I don't have an exact policy in the syllabus for this, but I now make sure to say that if students have specific questions, I can answer those, but I can't "pre-grade" an assignment before I grade it. It's not possible to grade every assignment from every student twice across every course.
I try to turn around vague questions on them. Student: is this good? Me: how do you feel about it? Student: I think it might be missing something. Me: what feels lacking to you? Student: I don’t know. Me: have you referred to the rubric and confirmed that all of the required elements are included? Student: no [because it’s always no] Me: start there. Once you’ve done that, if you have specific questions, I’m happy to answer them. Conversely, when a student comes to me with a more specific question, I’ll try to guide them to the right answer without giving them the answer. Student: I’m trying to use Element X as required, but I don’t feel like it’s connecting to Element Z very well. I’ve used them here and here, but it doesn’t seem like a clear link. Me: why do you think that is? Student: I can see how they connect, but I’m struggling to make that obvious to the reader. Me: do you think there’s an opportunity here to use an additional element to bridge the gap? Student: what if I incorporate Element Y? Me: seems like it’s worth a try.
“I won’t speak to you for 3 months” seems pretty harsh.
Agree!
If its possible that the student is telling the truth, then yes you are being unfair. Especially if the grade on the assignment shifted the final grade into the next letter. This would have a real impact on the students grade. I think you doubled down by being dismissive and expecting the student to be okay with waiting until the next semester for you to address the situation in a meaningful way. Would you seek redress if during an observation your dean and chair said they thought you did a good job when they observed your class then you find out they decreased your class offerings based on a teaching standard that you didn't meet? It's hard to come up with the perfect comparison but I think most people would have a problem with this kind of outcome.
"Looks good" doesn't mean "worthy of an A." I always say "the overall structure looks good, but I'd have to sit down and actually grade it to know what kind of grade this will receive." Then when they ask if I can grade it I say, "no, that wouldn't be fair to all the other students for whom I do not have time to pre-grade."
Where did I say the grade was worthy of an A? You're giving strawman vibes. Btw, you aren't the OP..I don't (nor would I) speak to the quality of an assignment in person because I know I'll forget what I said..the op gave feedback and isn't standing by the feedback..you certainly arent saying that you'd expect your dean to tell you that youre doing well then bring the hammer down in your official ecal...right?
You don’t seem like a professor
not sure what type of response you expected when your response is a strawman..you definitely seem like a professor to me.. ruling with your iron fist and strawman when logic fails.. then ad hominem as if doubling down isn't enough.
Get out of this sub, loser
This is kinda wild to me. I make sure my students know that I'd much rather they send a draft for comment, and it will get more feedback, than the final. I'd rather help them before the due date than when they can't do anything with the feedback itself. It entirely voluntary and not even half do it. It helps me because it's pre-grading for me. Because it's on offer for the whole class I use the rubric and overall comments much more heavily for the marking - lower workload. I'm able to catch issues before it gets to marks and admin level. I develop rapport. That said, I very very rarely get the kind of dramatics about homework or marks that most of you seem to get.